The Flight Model Thread

[maradine]

How I've longed to bring this to you! It was cold out there!

Copypasta'd from my work on the beta forums, for your PSU pleasure. Discuss!


I'm serious about PS2 flight. I want the model and control scheme to be deep enough to satisfy the study-sim nerds, but accessible enough to please the PS1 "floating camera" hipsters. I recognize that never in the twain shall meet, but every step either extreme makes into the middle is useful.

In order to have this discussion, we first need to be able to objectively state the characteristics of various parts of the engine, and the various actors within it. Specifically, since we have asymmetric balance, it is useful to know exactly how each aircraft behaves relative to the others.

Presented below is my first pass at gathering that information. Some definitions:

Soft "Stall" Speed - the absolute minimum speed the aircraft can be brought to via tiny applications of the deceleration key and still maintain level flight.

Hard "Stall" Speed - the absolute minimum speed the aircraft can be brought to via hard braking and still maintain level flight.

I was surprised to learn that these are repeatably different speeds. Yes - you can fly all three fighters at less than a walk if you're gentle about it.

Rotation Rates - these were all measured by timing multiple 360º rotations and averaging out. Shockingly, all the fighters rotate exactly the same, both idle and at speed. The Reaver, for instance, will turn with either competitor degree-for-degree.

Translations - how fast the craft gains or loses altitude in level flight via application of the "space" and "ctrl" keys, both from an idle and at speed.

Idle Vertical Drift - how fast a craft below its stall speed loses altitude.

Obviously, the Afterburner speeds will be subject to module loadout, but it's interesting to see who has the better beta module hard-coded right now.

So - the numbers:


Note: Following image is 2 patches old - will be updating tonight.

http://maradine.com/ps2_flight_model_mk2.png

Where to go from here? You can help me by -

Validate! Confirm my numbers aren't ********.
Collect! Is there something that the different craft do very differently? Get me numbers and a method for reproducing them.
Suggest! How do we make each fighter handle differently but fairly?
Test! Just fly the **** things and say what you see. Use different input modes. Use a gamepad. Wire up a HOTAS. Whatever.



Enhancement Suggestion #1
Implement Slip
Slip is the tendency of an aircraft to yaw into its lower wing during a roll-initiated uncoordinated turn. Slip is a desirable aspect in a flight model as it allows small heading (and therefore, aiming) corrections to be made without engaging the rudder. The slip force should be small compared to the yaw generated by rudder engagement. Slip should only be applied to aircraft that actually have some form of aerodynamic surfaces, but applying it equally is probably simplest.

Implementing slip cheaply in PS2:

Calculate absolute roll attitude "X", where level flight is 0 and wings aligned vertically is 90. (this is already performed and displayed).
Calculate speed ratio "Y" where Y is current vehicle speed divided by rated maximum.
Tune with constant "C". where larger C induces more slip in identical flight regimes.
Calculate: Slip Force "S" = X*Y*S
Apply S as an additive yaw moment (over and on top of whatever control inputs are being applied)


Examples:

A Mosquito moving in level flight (X=0) at maximum rated speed (Y=1) has
no slip (S=0), regardless of tuning (C=?). Note that this is also true in inverted level flight.

A Mosquito moving at a 30 degree bank (X=30) at maximum rated speed (Y=1)
with the tuning constant at 0.1 (C=0.1)has a slip of 3 degrees per second into the lower wing (S=3).

A Mosquito moving at a 90 degree bank (X=90) at half its rated speed (Y=.5)
with the tuning constant at 0.1 (C=0.1) has a slip of 4.5 degrees per second into the lower wing
(S=3).

A Mosquito at a 90 degree bank (X=90) and motionless (Y=0) withe the tuning
constant at 0.1 (C=0.1) has no slip (S=0). How it stays up at all in this attitude
is a completely separate topic.

[Hamma]

Wow.. well thought out post.

[VaderShake]

Hmm.....looks like some math is involved.....count me out!

[julfo]

Very interested to see the updated numbers. Suspect they will remain mostly unchanged.

[maradine]

That is my suspicion as well. If I had to guess, they are going to make the remainder of the handling identical and cert. out the differences. I guess we'll know soon enough, but it would be nice to have some developer insight into where they're going with it.

[Kipper]

Poor frame rate prevents me from doing much of anything, especially flying - but I do plan to do a fair bit of it.

I agree slip needs to be implemented, it will make things feel more realistic and it's not newbie unfriendly since its quite a small effect. Of course they should support analog throttle and rudder controls so that you can use pedals and do coordinated turns.

I'd like to see a transition between hover and forward flight modes, say on 25% throttle or something. If you want to hover, fine, but if you want to go fast, you should not be allowed to stop in the air quite so seamlessly.

Stalling in a steep climb can be a danger, but it can also be a manoeuvre (or just fun if you can do some aerobatics)

[maradine]

I think it's important to note, for those that are just joining us, that axis mapping is not yet implemented.

The flight controls or non-optimal for mouse users, and non-functional for joystick users.

[Xyntech]

I wonder how viable it would be to have the mouse control yaw at slow speeds and smoothly transition to controlling roll as the aircrafts speed increases. Only available as one optional control scheme of course, with key bindings available to roll and yaw as well.

The slip mechanic would definitely be a welcome addition. I'd also like to see the hard flight ceiling turned into a soft flight ceiling where aircraft stall out past a certain height.

[maradine]

As opposed to the cement bounce we currently have? :)

Actually, another 500 meters and I think I'd be pretty happy.

[Hamma]

I still think the Mosquito needs to be a bit faster to go along with the empire theme.

[Rolfski]

Are these nrs still correct?

[Ghoest9]

Back in beta a seemingly real pilot came to similar conclusions just based on the way the various aircraft handled and how it felt with respect to real jets and helicopters.

They didnt listen to him.

All I know is that the modele feels nothing like any aircraft i have been in or video I have seen shot from inside an aircraft.

[Hamma]

Flight model has changed quite a bit since early beta. Personally I love flying, I don't expect a flight simulator.

[Bravix]

Back in beta a seemingly real pilot came to similar conclusions just based on the way the various aircraft handled and how it felt with respect to real jets and helicopters.

They didnt listen to him.

All I know is that the modele feels nothing like any aircraft i have been in or video I have seen shot from inside an aircraft.

That's probably because there aren't any aircraft like these in real life :p

I really don't have any major gripes with the flight model. I wish ascending was slower and descending was faster (gravity is a bitch) but there isn't a whole lot I'd change.

It's important to keep in mind that, in real life, these aircraft would never fly. Except maybe the Scythe, cause it uses funky space-magic. Mosquito and Reaver don't, however. They supposedly just use aerodynamics....which is bull because, again, these things wouldn't fly. Not in the way the game presents them at least. There would always need to be a downward thrust to keep these things up, because those pitiful excuses for wings certainly wouldn't create enough lift to hold the aircraft up.

[RSphil]

interesting. my main problem though is still no proper joystick support. nice to see other sim nerds about. have to keep it simple though for all those out there who cant fly that well. i like the way things are now bar the lack of stick support.

[RSphil]

That's probably because there aren't any aircraft like these in real life :p

I really don't have any major gripes with the flight model. I wish ascending was slower and descending was faster (gravity is a bitch) but there isn't a whole lot I'd change.

It's important to keep in mind that, in real life, these aircraft would never fly. Except maybe the Scythe, cause it uses funky space-magic. Mosquito and Reaver don't, however. They supposedly just use aerodynamics....which is bull because, again, these things wouldn't fly. Not in the way the game presents them at least. There would always need to be a downward thrust to keep these things up, because those pitiful excuses for wings certainly wouldn't create enough lift to hold the aircraft up.

not 100% imo. the stealth fighter should not fly but can due to computers and the vtol has been around for year thanks to us brits being nuts lol.
i recon they are good aircraft and if looked at closely could be around soon if we wanted. i think it was the lockheed star fighter had very small wings also :)

but i agree, not many problems with the flight model. i actually like it but dont fly much as not keen on mouse and keyboard controls. plus i need to mod my Reaver a little to the way i like it and for the different situations i'll be using it for

[Bravix]

not 100% imo. the stealth fighter should not fly but can due to computers and the vtol has been around for year thanks to us brits being nuts lol.
i recon they are good aircraft and if looked at closely could be around soon if we wanted. i think it was the lockheed star fighter had very small wings also :)

but i agree, not many problems with the flight model. i actually like it but dont fly much as not keen on mouse and keyboard controls. plus i need to mod my Reaver a little to the way i like it and for the different situations i'll be using it for

"The Stealth Fighter"? Which stealth fighter. All of them that I know of have aerodynamic wings and bodies.

And yes there is VTOL. I never argued that there wasn't. The problem is that the wings on these aircraft wouldn't create enough lift to hold the aircraft up in straight and level flight. The engines would constantly have to be applying a downward thrust to keep these things in the air.

You might be able to make a case for the Mosquito, but you'll never see anything like the Reaver in real life. That thing is about as aerodynamic as a semi truck.

[RSphil]

"The Stealth Fighter"? Which stealth fighter. All of them that I know of have aerodynamic wings and bodies.

And yes there is VTOL. I never argued that there wasn't. The problem is that the wings on these aircraft wouldn't create enough lift to hold the aircraft up in straight and level flight. The engines would constantly have to be applying a downward thrust to keep these things in the air.

You might be able to make a case for the Mosquito, but you'll never see anything like the Reaver in real life. That thing is about as aerodynamic as a semi truck.

there is only one stealth fighter, the f117 nighthawk. the stealth bomber is a wing so i pass that one lol ( which isnt a sstealthy as they think as we picked it up on radar at an airshow in the uk, keep that between us though lol ;) ) the stealth fighter's wings are very short and the body is not as aerodynamic as people think. the whole thing is very unstable and if they did not have computers controlling it the thing is impossible to fly.

as for the little wings bit did you look at the starfighter? i recon the wings in game are around the same length.

the Reaver is not far off the apache in design and that has to be aerodynamically sound to fly weather its a helo or a plane the principle still applies when it comes to the body. id say the Reaver wouldnt be as fast as it is in the game but i think we could make it fly with todays tech not to mention the tech in the game :)

technically semi trucks are aerodynamic. they flow through it with some form of ease and though not very efficient they get ok fuel consumption lol. but i get where you are coming from :)

[Bravix]

the Reaver is not far off the apache in design and that has to be aerodynamically sound to fly weather its a helo or a plane the principle still applies when it comes to the body. id say the Reaver wouldnt be as fast as it is in the game but i think we could make it fly with todays tech not to mention the tech in the game :)

Don't have time to respond to everything, have an appointment I gotta run to...

But no, just no. I don't think you understand the differences between how heli's/aircraft fly and the complaints I'm making.

The apache doesn't rely on (fixed) wings to provide lift. The Reaver (while in straight and level flight) does. The only time I can fantasize it ever staying afloat is when those engines are pointed towards the ground, at which point it's effectively a helicopter that uses thrust vectoring instead of traditional methods.

[Miffy]

I want the hover turn to be faster and then I'll be happy.

[MrBloodworth]

I want the hover turn to be faster and then I'll be happy.

That's what got us in the mess of Aircraft in the first one.

[Miffy]

That's what got us in the mess of Aircraft in the first one.

Aircraft were never OP in Planetside lol, that game sucked for being a pilot. All I ever had was the lock on noise and flak constantly. I mean MAX Unit AA was so powerful and MAX units didn't suck like they do in Planetside 2 so lots of people used them.

All you had to have one was AA MAX to protect a base in Planetside.

[Ghoest9]

That's probably because there aren't any aircraft like these in real life :p


But their never could be.

Its not that these aircraft are behaving weird due to unusual amounts of of power or an unusual ability to vector the power. Several things that take place(or perhaps more accurately dont take place)could only happen with magic.


The aircrafrt in PS1 were not trealistic at all either - but they felt real as you were sitting on a super highly vectorable powerful engine.

[Miffy]

But their never could be.

Its not that these aircraft are behaving weird due to unusual amounts of of power or an unusual ability to vector the power. Several things that take place(or perhaps more accurately dont take place)could only happen with magic.


The aircrafrt in PS1 were not trealistic at all either - but they felt real as you were sitting on a super highly vectorable powerful engine.

Their?

[Ghoest9]

Aircraft were never OP in Planetside lol, that game sucked for being a pilot. All I ever had was the lock on noise and flak constantly. I mean MAX Unit AA was so powerful and MAX units didn't suck like they do in Planetside 2 so lots of people used them.

All you had to have one was AA MAX to protect a base in Planetside.


Appearently you didnt actually play PS1 or only did so for a brief time.

Early on Reaver had excellent missiles and pretty much owned the entire battlefield against everything. but it wasnt long before that was nerfed.

Then later on people became extremely good at using Mossies against infantry(some using aimers some just good shots) to the point that it was suicide to go outside a base without a vehicle - and eventually they had to add change some game elements in response.

[Juryrig]

as for the little wings bit did you look at the starfighter? i recon the wings in game are around the same length.



Short stubby wings with little wing area work fine, as long as you can go fast enough. Top speed on these things is, what, a couple of hundred kmh? 150mph or so? Those wings wouldn't offer much lift at that speed, unless (a) they're thick (high drag) or (b) the body is contributing (as in the F117, or space shuttle).

The fact that they've got vectored thrust pretty much changes the rules, however. Assuming you've got some kind of futuristic power plant that produces enough thrust, you can make it any shape you like and it'll fly.

Granted, in level flight the Reaver in game looks like all the thrust is being directed backwards, but it wouldn't take much thrust being bled off and vectored downwards to make up for the lack of wing.

Anyway, this is just aircraft nerding....actual performance of the aircraft in game makes them feel more like helicopters to me.

[RSphil]

Don't have time to respond to everything, have an appointment I gotta run to...

But no, just no. I don't think you understand the differences between how heli's/aircraft fly and the complaints I'm making.

The apache doesn't rely on (fixed) wings to provide lift. The Reaver (while in straight and level flight) does. The only time I can fantasize it ever staying afloat is when those engines are pointed towards the ground, at which point it's effectively a helicopter that uses thrust vectoring instead of traditional methods.

ok ok. though the apache dose not use fixed wings it uses lots of little wings. i understand fully how aircraft work as i have been round them all my life. my dad worked for British aerospace and helped build things like the concord, tornado, jaguar and the first EAP which was the prototype for the Eurofighter today. i also have done stuff at collage for aerodynamics ect. :) and the odd job when i was an engineer.

the wings on most of the aircraft in game are id say ok. bar the Gal. with no Winglets it has no aid for lift. Winglets make shorter wings viable. i noticed the lib has them so thats ok. the smaller aircraft with the stub wings will act like the starfighter.
so the Gal and scythe are the 2 id say would not be able to fly. but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[RSphil]

Short stubby wings with little wing area work fine, as long as you can go fast enough. Top speed on these things is, what, a couple of hundred kmh? 150mph or so? Those wings wouldn't offer much lift at that speed, unless (a) they're thick (high drag) or (b) the body is contributing (as in the F117, or space shuttle).

The fact that they've got vectored thrust pretty much changes the rules, however. Assuming you've got some kind of futuristic power plant that produces enough thrust, you can make it any shape you like and it'll fly.

Granted, in level flight the Reaver in game looks like all the thrust is being directed backwards, but it wouldn't take much thrust being bled off and vectored downwards to make up for the lack of wing.

Anyway, this is just aircraft nerding....actual performance of the aircraft in game makes them feel more like helicopters to me.

lol yup we are all nerds tbh. i like how they fly. not got the full pack on my Reaver yet so not sure how the yaw is as people wish it was faster. seems ok to me. just want full joystick control instead of the mess they have now.

[RSphil]

I want the hover turn to be faster and then I'll be happy.

do you have full performance certs? i think its in that one. i only have 1 and the hover turn is ok. need to get full though as i like hovering and shooting troops :D

[Juryrig]

my dad worked for British aerospace and helped build things like the concord, tornado, jaguar and the first EAP which was the prototype for the Eurofighter today. .

He'd have been at the back end of his career just as I started mine, then. Was he at Warton? I did 2 years on Tornado (the GR4/mid life update programme), 2 years on EFA (Eurofighter Typhoon as it became) and three years in R&D.

It was a lot less exciting than it sounds, mind you.

The 'wings' on an Apache are just there to hang weapons on, IIRC - they make them wing shaped just 'cos it reduces drag. *waits to be corrected by a helicopter geek - I admit to knowing bugger all about rotary wing aircraft*

[RSphil]

He'd have been at the back end of his career just as I started mine, then. Was he at Warton? I did 2 years on Tornado (the GR4/mid life update programme), 2 years on EFA (Eurofighter Typhoon as it became) and three years in R&D.

It was a lot less exciting than it sounds, mind you.

The 'wings' on an Apache are just there to hang weapons on, IIRC - they make them wing shaped just 'cos it reduces drag. *waits to be corrected by a helicopter geek - I admit to knowing bugger all about rotary wing aircraft*

ye he was at Warton. he was a floor manager in one of the hangers. he was there for 30 odd years.

you are correct that the wings on the apache are for weapon pods ect but are aerodynamic to reduce drag. all rotor blades though if you look at them are thin long wings. instead of needing forward momentum to get air flow over them like a plane they spin to produce lift.

Bac aint the same these days. even when my dad left it was not as fun as back in the day lol.

[bht]

I just wanted to ask- are these characteristic numbers based on stock planes or are they including upgrades? The lack of quantification of what the cert upgrades do make me wary of putting certs into them. I mean is my top speed going to go up 4 kph or is it going to go up 10? You have to grind so much just to unlock them so it just feels slightly ridiculous. I mean after all the increases could be exponential with cert level so the end result may be more of what i am looking for.

I think that's my biggest complaint with planetside right now is just saying 'is better than the last one' isn't exactly helpful.

[Bravix]

ok ok. though the apache dose not use fixed wings it uses lots of little wings. i understand fully how aircraft work as i have been round them all my life. my dad worked for British aerospace and helped build things like the concord, tornado, jaguar and the first EAP which was the prototype for the Eurofighter today. i also have done stuff at collage for aerodynamics ect. :) and the odd job when i was an engineer.

the wings on most of the aircraft in game are id say ok. bar the Gal. with no Winglets it has no aid for lift. Winglets make shorter wings viable. i noticed the lib has them so thats ok. the smaller aircraft with the stub wings will act like the starfighter.
so the Gal and scythe are the 2 id say would not be able to fly. but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Starfighters wings might not be super long, but they are larger than the Reaver/Mosquito wings. Have more surface area to create more lift. The mosquito's wings are teeny, hardly any area.

I'm surprised by your comment on the gal. If anything, I'd so it's the only airplane that's semi-realistic. It's also the only aircraft in game that has ailerons. They don't work like ailerons should, you kinda strafe to one side instead of actually turning, but at least they look cool and move around.

Assuming the metal that they use in the future is more light weight, I'd say the Galaxy is the most realistic. Quite a bit of wing on that thing. With its design, it'd definitely have a high stall speed, though that's okay since it VTOL to manage that.

Obviously, the Scythe wouldn't fly under normal circumstances, but it uses space magic (somehow uses the planets magnetic field) so it makes sense that it can. The other two, however, are supposedly normal.

Since we're bringing up our backgrounds now, I'm a pilot of fixed-wing aircraft.

Bleh I'm done for now. Forgive any spelling/grammar I messed up on, I'm full of Percocet :doh:

Edit: Don't know if I mentioned but you seem focussed on wingtips. They're cool, they give a nice little bonus to lift, but that bonus is relatively small compared to all the lift which is going to be created by the wings themselves. Wingtips would definitely by optional in my opinion.

Edit edit: Oh and regading the heli's rotor, I realize they're all basically tiny wings. That's why I made the (fixed) distinction in my previous post :)

[Juryrig]

Can we continue the discussion under the clear understanding that we're just plane nerds chatting shit about the viability of imaginary aircraft in a game as if it's a friendly discussion round a pub table over a few beers? Cos that'll be fun and interesting.

This being the internet it's all too easy to end up in arguments about right and wrong, which is less fun. Especially when talking about the realism of stuff in video games :) I'm very much in the first paragraph, here.

Besides, I want to post a link to the mother of all small-winged aircraft, but I'm not going to do so if it's just going to make me look like an asshat :lol:

[Rolfski]

I cannot wait for this discussion to go through the roof the moment aircraft carriers make it into the game.