Complete lack of leadership/organization/intelligence?

[Shotokanguy]

Based on experience, how does the quality of the fighting seem to be on different servers? Are there servers where each empire is more organized than others?

I seem to be having a hell of a time finding a good fight. I'm on West 01, and the NC just...no one talks. It's 100% zerg, all of the time. But that means half of the empire goes off in one direction and the other half goes somewhere else, and we really don't make much progress.

Maybe I'd have a better time late at night? I figure the more serious players would be playing later into the night and more people would be home from work or school.

I mean, people don't even reliably supply Galaxies. It's pretty annoying to lose a spawn point and have nothing close by because every spawn point is at a facility.

[Timealude]

Based on experience, how does the quality of the fighting seem to be on different servers? Are there servers where each empire is more organized than others?

I seem to be having a hell of a time finding a good fight. I'm on West 01, and the NC just...no one talks. It's 100% zerg, all of the time. But that means half of the empire goes off in one direction and the other half goes somewhere else, and we really don't make much progress.

Maybe I'd have a better time late at night? I figure the more serious players would be playing later into the night and more people would be home from work or school.

I mean, people don't even reliably supply Galaxies. It's pretty annoying to lose a spawn point and have nothing close by because every spawn point is at a facility.

Well right now they have almost half the map so they are doing something right.

[Figment]

Well right now they have almost half the map so they are doing something right.

Or the others aren't.

Typically, one side somewhere fails dramatically. Sometimes a side zergs a lot and overwhelms a bunch of defenders, in the end nothing really changes. That's the way of the threeway. Threeways where an enemy keeps returning have nowhere to go, zerg or no zerg.

For now, there's no organization aside from outfit level.

The chat systems being rather random in which hexes they contact people in don't help (shape of hexgroup rather than surrounding hexes). And a lot of people don't even know the command /re (/region been removed?). Organization on a region scale hardly occurs, but on a larger scale you can currently completely forget about it.

[Shotokanguy]

For some reason, I haven't even been in what I can call a three way yet.

It's just very strange. You'd think mindless zerging would inevitably lead to most of the server's population fighting in one general area, but...I don't know, I wish I could figure out what is making people run all over the place.

[NCfighterr]

join a outfit you'll see organization get better

[Toppopia]

1-2 hours before the West 01 server closed yesterday, there was some organisation and massive convoys of tanks and 1-2 galaxies just going through a hex and capping, then moving on. But i don't see much in the way of chat. In TR i sometimes see people saying "How did he kill me??" and other things that contribute nothing important. But i saw 1-2 times someone in chat saying "We need help at (place name)"

Also, we need more hints to show up, i have no idea how to chat properly. Use half of my stuff etc. It needs more annoying hints showing up everywhere.

[EVILPIG]

Based on experience, how does the quality of the fighting seem to be on different servers? Are there servers where each empire is more organized than others?

I seem to be having a hell of a time finding a good fight. I'm on West 01, and the NC just...no one talks. It's 100% zerg, all of the time. But that means half of the empire goes off in one direction and the other half goes somewhere else, and we really don't make much progress.

Maybe I'd have a better time late at night? I figure the more serious players would be playing later into the night and more people would be home from work or school.

I mean, people don't even reliably supply Galaxies. It's pretty annoying to lose a spawn point and have nothing close by because every spawn point is at a facility.

Are you in an outfit? Where do you expect the talking to occur? My outfit has 83 on atm and we're all communicating on Teamspeak, so we don't use public comms.

[Figment]

Are you in an outfit? Where do you expect the talking to occur? My outfit has 83 on atm and we're all communicating on Teamspeak, so we don't use public comms.

Then your side still doesn't have the organization he speaks off.

As a side, as a whole empire, an organization of outfits (not just one), organization lacks. Your outfit might be pwning in what they do on one side of the map, certainly with those numbers working together, but you can't dominate these maps without coordinating with others. You can't really do that yet, can you? :/ Of course, if you had four such outfits per server, sure, you can do quite a lot with the numbers you speak off.

But that's not going to be the case, is it? There'll be some big ones, but mostly small outfits. Those will need to be able to work together. The current state of the game doesn't support that and PS2 command is still in its infancy. Hell, it hasn't been born yet. I really hope the command system will be refined shortly so outfits can coordinate on a larger level than a single outfit. Regardless of its size.

To simply ask "are you in an outfit?" and insinuate blame for preceiving incoherent empire fighting, rather than the current state of the command side of the game which hasn't really gone through most of the first trials, let alone iterative redesign steps of the development process yet, is a bit... weird.

[HellsPanda]

Knowing the Devil Dogs from old, they communicate with the other outfits, the Outfits are organised as a whole. And now that the command channel has opened it will open for communication more easily

[Shotokanguy]

Regarding outfits, I just don't feel like joining one when the game is still in beta.

I'll wait for the final build, see how many and who is playing the game, and make my decision when I'm ready.

[HellsPanda]

From experience its very good to join up with an Outfit/Guild/Whatever during a Beta, it allows you to find people to talk with about whats going on, and most likely a few of you will join up or make the same outfit when the game goes live.

[ringring]

In my experience it's not happening yet except within outfits.

Often when we make a push we find a bunch of other people accompanying, neither party asked for it, it just happened organically.

But, we do have links with other outfits Ruffnex, Blood Legion and BMC. We're just waiting fort he aprropriate moment to start getting it together. At present we're building, learning the game etc.

I think the serious stuff will start when, there are more continent and release when what we do matters (ie we retain the certs and purchases).

[Figment]

In my experience it's not happening yet except within outfits.

Often when we make a push we find a bunch of other people accompanying, neither party asked for it, it just happened organically.

But, we do have links with other outfits Ruffnex, Blood Legion and BMC. We're just waiting fort he aprropriate moment to start getting it together. At present we're building, learning the game etc.

I think the serious stuff will start when, there are more continent and release when what we do matters (ie we retain the certs and purchases).

Same for us: we try to use the old ps1 network of single players. Main issues: we have a network, but the connections have to be remade manualy. Meanwhile, new players cannot network.

In addition, in contrast to the US server, we will be facing language barriers more often.

[Blue Sam]

The issue is that you cannot organise the zerg. At all. You can organise your outfit, you can coordinate with other outfits and you can kick arse that way, but you sure as hell can't organise the hundreds of random people you have floating around, mainly because they don't want to be organised. In the main, they want to run around shooting stuff at random, and they'll do that wherever they feel like doing it, regardless of what somebody he's never heard of is telling him to do over comms. Hell, half of them will probably do exactly the opposite of what you tell them to do, just because you told them to do it.

[HellsPanda]

Well there is no way to controll the randoms, but the Zerg isnt just randoms, its quite often well trained Outfits like Devil Dogs. Who are so massive their actions seem random

[Shotokanguy]

It doesn't help that the map is totally misleading right now. I'm trying to make judgements based on the color of the hotspots, the location of the hotspot, and the enemy influence it shows on the pie chart, but then I get to an area that looks like a good 3 way and there's no one there.

People have no idea where to go because there's no one to tell them where to go, and it's just resulting in a bunch of..."meh" skirmishes.

PS1 Vets should get access to a global command chat. Maybe even just PS1 Vets who were still subscribed to PS1 at the start of beta.

[Figment]

The issue is that you cannot organise the zerg. At all. You can organise your outfit, you can coordinate with other outfits and you can kick arse that way, but you sure as hell can't organise the hundreds of random people you have floating around, mainly because they don't want to be organised. In the main, they want to run around shooting stuff at random, and they'll do that wherever they feel like doing it, regardless of what somebody he's never heard of is telling him to do over comms. Hell, half of them will probably do exactly the opposite of what you tell them to do, just because you told them to do it.

The tricks of being a good inter-outfit and zerg commander are:

* accepting they will do what they want
* know what they want and indicate how you provide this if needed (make good on your word!)
* don't ever order, but instead: request, inform, warn and suggest
* in immediate need, explain why there is need and why you want to make a certain move, so they can judge your judgment
* never yell or insult
* network with and know your allies and ask them for help on a personal level, know their capacities, combat type fetishes and preferences
* use empire propaganda (empire pride)
* make it personal and use humour (they are stealing your pies!)
* lead by example: if you want something done, at least try yourself if you could
* listen to feedback of others and get others involved in decision making
* if a vote doesn't go your way, support it fully: whoever won will support your votes too
* if others ask for help, provide it: gain allies

[Whiteagle]

I'm not sure if I'm validated in this, but I hate the Smurfs far more then the Barneys...

...Probably because of how they direct their idiots...

I think the Vanu tells them "Go to X in a Scythe, disable as much as you can, and then stand on the points until you capture them", where "X" is some enemy facility adjacent to the one they are currently trying to take.

This is actually a very smart move, not only does it allow them to quickly capture large amounts of territory, it also prevents the enemy from using those nearby resources to defend from their main attack.

The NC seem to currently have one, and ONLY ONE order; "Take Mao."
Sure, the understand enough that they have to take the hexes around Mao first, but it's usually just Galaxy Spam while the Reaver swarm covers them from any aerial resistance.

I don't know what pisses me off more, the fact that they get to our Warpgate's doorstep through sheer Zerging, or how completely fucking repetitive this tactic is...

I don't even think they bother going further west then the CROWN anymore!

Hell, I saw the Vanu make a grab towards Mao, but it seems the Smurfs can't handle an enemy who's weapons can actually hit them.

[ringring]

The issue is that you cannot organise the zerg. At all. You can organise your outfit, you can coordinate with other outfits and you can kick arse that way, but you sure as hell can't organise the hundreds of random people you have floating around, mainly because they don't want to be organised. In the main, they want to run around shooting stuff at random, and they'll do that wherever they feel like doing it, regardless of what somebody he's never heard of is telling him to do over comms. Hell, half of them will probably do exactly the opposite of what you tell them to do, just because you told them to do it.

There's some truth in this, but not complete truth.

People say you cannot 'zerg herd' but you can, I've done it.

The thing is you just have to accept that you can't simply issue orders and they will be obeyed. On the other hand, if you give some reasons why you're saying what you are some people will listen and sometimes a large part of the zerg will.

It's not 100% sure fire but sometimes it works.

The main thing that scuppers empire coordination is counter-globalling.

[Mox]

I think some kind of global and continent commanders would solve a lot of regarding the lack of leadership.

[Aaron]

A "Zerg Herding" certification tree should be added lol.

[Figment]

There's some truth in this, but not complete truth.

People say you cannot 'zerg herd' but you can, I've done it.

The thing is you just have to accept that you can't simply issue orders and they will be obeyed. On the other hand, if you give some reasons why you're saying what you are some people will listen and sometimes a large part of the zerg will.

It's not 100% sure fire but sometimes it works.

Indeed.

The main thing that scuppers empire coordination is counter-globalling.

That's why I want to be very critical of the "Mission System". Really need to know if that's not going to cause empire schizophrenia: people that are in command making missions is fine. People further down the line making missions is fine.

Question is, won't these missions conflict terribly if they don't support the same plan?

[Baneblade]

The trick to being a good zerg herder is both being effective with your strategy and respected by the players. Which is one reason why the Devil Dogs have to be so large, nobody else gives PIG the time of day.

But aside from that, there have to be adequate tools, which are not simply open to just any tool to spam with. That was a big issue in PS1, too many non leaders or outright bad leaders trying to compete with the established and effective order of war. A lot of times, someone might try a 'new idea' and the zerg might even go along with it, but if it fails... you can expect to be ignored for the rest of the night.

But, speaking from experience, most of the failures of good leadership is from the bad leadership getting in the way, most especially when splitting forces. That is why War Machine and most other outfits operate internally with little to no outside cooperation, we simply haven't worked out who is worth the effort yet. A rising star one day might never be seen again, yet the douchebaggery of the zergfit leadership keeps on plodding along, which invariably makes it seem like they are the ones that know what to do when the reality is... they just have the biggest hammer and make the most noise.

[Whiteagle]

The trick to being a good zerg herder is both being effective with your strategy and respected by the players. Which is one reason why the Devil Dogs have to be so large, nobody else gives PIG the time of day.

But aside from that, there have to be adequate tools, which are not simply open to just any tool to spam with. That was a big issue in PS1, too many non leaders or outright bad leaders trying to compete with the established and effective order of war. A lot of times, someone might try a 'new idea' and the zerg might even go along with it, but if it fails... you can expect to be ignored for the rest of the night.

But, speaking from experience, most of the failures of good leadership is from the bad leadership getting in the way, most especially when splitting forces. That is why War Machine and most other outfits operate internally with little to no outside cooperation, we simply haven't worked out who is worth the effort yet. A rising star one day might never be seen again, yet the douchebaggery of the zergfit leadership keeps on plodding along, which invariably makes it seem like they are the ones that know what to do when the reality is... they just have the biggest hammer and make the most noise.
Yeah, I got fed up with a Pub Platoon I joined up with last night for similar reasons...

I ended up leading Charlie Squad by virtue of being the first to join it, only to have my perfectly reasonable orders to fly to facilities adjacent to the ones Alpha and Bravo were taking ignored because our Galaxy Pilot was friends with the guy who started the Platoon.

Then, being conditioned to take bases instead of defending them, our glorious leader decided to direct our mob deeper into enemy territory instead of holding up at our major bases to ensure they weren't immediately RE-taken by the enemy...

Ugh... why does it never pay to have an I.Q. of 134 and a rudimentary understanding of tactics?

[avpmaster]

I played for a good hour, and as you said, I find that people rarely use voice chat. Maybe it's because people aren't fond of the "settings" menu?


Either way, found it infuriating that I would spend 10 minutes at the VS warpgate with my sunderer / galaxy, only to have nobody come in, since everyone was too busy dicking around in the buildings.

[Shinjorai]

Are you in an outfit? Where do you expect the talking to occur? My outfit has 83 on atm and we're all communicating on Teamspeak, so we don't use public comms.

^ This, my outfits the same way, we hardly ever use public channels unless theres somebody tagging along with us so they know whats going on.

To the OP youre just not going to get organization from a pug group of people ninety percent of the time. Thats why you should join an outfit. The game gets so much better when you play with a group that you know you can depend on and that works together.

It basically comes down to if you want organization.


outfits > random group

I played for a good hour, and as you said, I find that people rarely use voice chat. Maybe it's because people aren't fond of the "settings" menu?


Either way, found it infuriating that I would spend 10 minutes at the VS warpgate with my sunderer / galaxy, only to have nobody come in, since everyone was too busy dicking around in the buildings.

We had some random guy hop in our gal last night and he said wow i never seen a gal fill up so fast. I couldnt help but find their statement ironnic, and same thing with yours. I think people just really dont realize this game just isnt as good solo. Join an outfit your game experience will be so much better. Theres really no reason not to join one, start your own even. But like somebody above said until the mission system gets implemented thats kind of how it will be because mankind as a whole, especially in video games, isnt really known for working together well without some sort of structure or incentives to guide them.

[Shotokanguy]

Ok, seriously...does anyone know how the hotspots work this time around? I figured red means big fight, since it's listed ahead of the other two colors down in the corner of the map...

But just now...yet again, I drop on J908 Impact Site...right in the middle of Vanu/TR/NC territory. The TR have been pushed back to the small upper part of the map, so they shouldn't have anywhere to go. The VS don't have any hotspots down near NC territory. The hotspot is red, the influence pie chart shows a mix of all 3 empires...it has to be a good fight, right? Nope, nothing when I get there.

The only explanation I can think of is that some of these servers are really empty. I kind of wish the server list showed the total number of players.

[Whalenator]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/26846306.jpg

[Shotokanguy]

I've been trying multiple servers, but it seems like most of them are really quite empty, in comparison to the scale of the game.

Am I crazy or does it seem that way to the rest of you? I mean, I know we're talking about numbers in the hundreds, but going to a base where there seems to be a good fight going and seeing a hundred dudes isn't good enough for PlanetSide.

[Sunrock]

Well I play on EU Beta 01 and during 6 pm to 10 pm or so the servers are usually full. I had to try for 2 hours yesterday to get in... :cry:

And no I don't get that feeling at all.

[Blue Sam]

I've been trying multiple servers, but it seems like most of them are really quite empty, in comparison to the scale of the game.

Am I crazy or does it seem that way to the rest of you? I mean, I know we're talking about numbers in the hundreds, but going to a base where there seems to be a good fight going and seeing a hundred dudes isn't good enough for PlanetSide.

What exactly does the phrase "Closed Beta" mean to you?

[EVILPIG]

Then your side still doesn't have the organization he speaks off.

As a side, as a whole empire, an organization of outfits (not just one), organization lacks. Your outfit might be pwning in what they do on one side of the map, certainly with those numbers working together, but you can't dominate these maps without coordinating with others. You can't really do that yet, can you? :/ Of course, if you had four such outfits per server, sure, you can do quite a lot with the numbers you speak off.

But that's not going to be the case, is it? There'll be some big ones, but mostly small outfits. Those will need to be able to work together. The current state of the game doesn't support that and PS2 command is still in its infancy. Hell, it hasn't been born yet. I really hope the command system will be refined shortly so outfits can coordinate on a larger level than a single outfit. Regardless of its size.

To simply ask "are you in an outfit?" and insinuate blame for preceiving incoherent empire fighting, rather than the current state of the command side of the game which hasn't really gone through most of the first trials, let alone iterative redesign steps of the development process yet, is a bit... weird.

Your negativity is becoming typical of you. In fact, we have had great success driving one side of the map with our primary forces, while holding the other with a single unit. My question was not insinuating any blame on his part. I was simply trying to get more information from him to guage just what the problem may be. I'd appreciate it if you just stopped trying to speak for me when you obviously have no idea what you're saying.