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Geist
2012-09-17, 12:49 AM
Another cert thread. I would have posted in the Cert Changes thread but this seems different.

http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/certs-our-longer-term-plan.20133/

Hi everyone,

Last week in the beta status I specifically referenced that certs were getting closer to their final times. We aren't done yet so don't assume what we have now is final. It may be too slow or fast. still measuring.. You will also notice that offline cert point gain has stopped. That is intentional. We do plan on putting that feature as something you automatically get with a sub and we *may* offer it as something you can purchase as well (it may only last a month btw).

I want to make sure everyone understands our goal with cert points is to get you in the game and playing. Playing will get you enough cert points to advance to whatever your goals are in reasonable time. If you notice we give you almost everything a skill based shooter needs right away. And you specifically will get that for free. Cert point gain is also for free. You will be able to speed it up with XP boosts (XP over time = cert points) and you can get it offline the way I mentioned above.

Also I made it clear in that previous beta status that time invested in this game IS going to matter. Is it going to unbalance it vs. the casual player? No. We've designed the game with that in mind. It does mean the person with more time invested will have more options. But not skill. That's all about the player.

I've been saying for a long time that we plan on having a deep enough cert tree for years of play. About 20% of the certs in the game will have top ends that require a lot of time investment to get. But getting 80% of the way there be painless even for a free player.

We've done our best to make a great game with a very deep certification system that will let you still be advancing years from now with just the stuff we have in the game today. We don't want our system to be as quick as unlocking in MW3 or BF3. That's specifically something we do NOT want. We want this game to have long legs and give you something cool and meaningful when you put the time in.

We also want the more casual player to have options to keep up with the heavier players.

We still have balancing work to do. we expect all the certs to be in the game in the next few weeks.

Thanks

Smed

Conq
2012-09-17, 01:01 AM
Nice, I was concerned casual players would fall drastically behind hardcores on certifications but my faith is restored. I don't mind paying a monthly sub for offline cert point gain.

Sunrock
2012-09-17, 02:11 AM
Nice, I was concerned casual players would fall drastically behind hardcores on certifications but my faith is restored. I don't mind paying a monthly sub for offline cert point gain.

Yea well... Hardcore players will also pay monthly sub fees.... We need to sleep too after all ;)

But hardcore does not really apply that you spend crazy amount of time in game. Just that you have a high priority of being online when you have a choice to do so, not spend the night bowling instead for an example...

artifice
2012-09-17, 02:54 AM
A SOE F2P games goes P2W... shocking.

SixShooter
2012-09-17, 03:27 AM
A SOE F2P games goes P2W... shocking.

:rofl: You're wrong but funny. :rofl:

Sunrock
2012-09-17, 03:44 AM
:rofl: You're wrong but funny. :rofl:

All F2P games are pay to win. Just a question of in what degree they are that. Exp boosts you pay money for is a small form of pay to win. Even if it's not as big as buying "ultimate weapon of doom" you still pay to get a bigger reward. I don't understand way people say it's just convenience. Because wining in online games is just convenience items and abilities you gain as reward.

Bags
2012-09-17, 04:02 AM
If it went live in it's current implementation, it would essentially be as close to full on P2W as you can be without being P2W.

Whether or not it's realistically P2W comes down to how fast you can earn certs per hour on release. ATM it's really really really slow, to the point where you can't keep up with someone getting 30 certs a night for paying a sub, seeing as certs are upgrades.

Raka Maru
2012-09-17, 04:49 AM
My faith is restored also. Don't know if I will keep a sub open but I like the pay by month cert gain w/o sub.

Would like to touch on the 24 hr XP boosters Mr. Smed. For casuals to ever want to use these, it would have to be base on in-game time. If I know I have 2 hrs to kill in PS2' I want an XP boost and would buy one, but if I will only see 2 hrs of that, I wouldn't buy it because it would only be worth less than 10% of the cost.

Perhaps have them in real game time? Or at the very least, a smaller time chunk at lower cost? The fairest option IMO is in-game time bound boosters, I would definitely always keep my slots full if they were like this.

Thank you for listening!

SpottyGekko
2012-09-17, 04:55 AM
All F2P games are pay to win. Just a question of in what degree they are that. Exp boosts you pay money for is a small form of pay to win. Even if it's not as big as buying "ultimate weapon of doom" you still pay to get a bigger reward. I don't understand way people say it's just convenience. Because wining in online games is just convenience items and abilities you gain as reward.

The old definition of "Pay to Win" used to be: "You can only buy advantage X in the Cash Shop with real money. No way to get it by playing the game."

I see the old definition is being discarded somewhat. It's being changed to: "If you can buy ANY advantage in the Cash Shop, the game is P2W".

The Cash Shop gives those with less time a way to stay competitive with those lucky people who can play 4-6 hours EVERY day. Seems like a good idea to me. Besides, Freeloaders are still totally viable in the game, they just have fewer options.

Sounds very much like Smed is borrowing from EVE's playbook:
About 20% of the certs in the game will have top ends that require a lot of time investment to get. But getting 80% of the way there be painless even for a free player.
In EVE, the first 4 levels of progression in any skill are fairly easy to achieve. The 5th level usually takes longer than all four of the previous levels combined, but does not give any more benefit than any of the prior individual levels (i.e. each level gives +5%).

However, any game that features progression over time eventually gets to a point where new players are going to feel somewhat "underpowered". Even if each cert only gives 1% advantage, after a year when the average player has unlocked 20 or 30 certs, that "veteran" will be perfoming 25% better than a raw n00b. Keeping THAT situation from developing in future is the real trick.

Flaropri
2012-09-17, 06:49 AM
Certs are an advantage within a specific loadout, but there is a "soft cap" to what you can spend on a specific loadout. If that "soft cap" can be reached fairly quickly there won't be too much of a difference between relatively new players and someone who's been playing for years. Obviously, there will be a few things beyond the "soft cap" until they get to the actual hard cap (100% certification for the loadout), but not necessarily providing enough of an advantage in and of themselves to make enough difference to matter. Beyond that "soft cap" is going into other loadouts (having options gives indirect power but not in a way that unbalances the game as long as those options are equal) or going for that "hard cap" to have a very slight advantage over the general players (but certainly not one limited to pay-players).

ATM it's really really really slow, to the point where you can't keep up with someone getting 30 certs a night for paying a sub, seeing as certs are upgrades.

SOE won't have passive gain's be greater than active gains, and likely won't have them stack. Not only are they interested in balancing the game, but they are interested in selling boosts on top of Subs.

Even if initially a new player can't keep up with a subbed player, the subbed/boosted player will still reach the soft or hard cap allowing the un-subbed to catch up at least within that loadout.


Related note:
I wouldn't be surprised if this was eventually topical to the issue of XP/Certs (Certainly it already is with Boosts): http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/energy-systems

Scopedog
2012-09-17, 08:00 AM
I'm approving of this direction, and I don't feel planetside will have a big problem with "superior" loadouts. Take aircraft for example if we ignore the current beta state of A2G being to good at everything, infantry, air, and Tanks. Its basically the go to weapon.

But with the buff to G2A its not a huge problem but it enforces team play, it doesn't matter at what time investment you are at, in some situations your gonna be on the loosing side of the stick.

But that's mostly vehicle vs infantry, inf vs inf combat they already are very very close to the perfect balance.

The number 1 reason for this is you can't use every cert at once! It doesn't give a "hardcore" player a unfair advantage as he|she have to carefully choose a few to take in the loadouts. they are allowed more options. I foresee a lot people sticking with for example the starter weapons in most classes, because they are most proficient with them.

Bottom line they have to make money and we want to play this game until they make ps3 :lol: I think the team have shown time and time again that they are on the right track, still its always good to air concerns, name one game that have had this amount of back and forth between devs and game community and takes concerns seriously and up front with the direction of the game, awesome popcorn:

Morsong
2012-09-17, 09:53 AM
Sounds good to me. Love the long term cert goals. I can see myself playing 2+ yrs still unlocking stuff.

SFJake
2012-09-17, 02:32 PM
There is no way in hell I'm paying 15$ a month just to keep up with people. But obviously they don't tell us the price. I might pay 5$ a month, top. A permanent option would be a much better one, but if at least the monthly fee isn't ridiculous... Plus, it'll have to include Auraxium.

So yeah, I'm expecting to be skipping on this game big time. I don't care so much that this is Pay to Win, though I wish they'd stop lying about it. All I care about is the price.

Timealude
2012-09-17, 02:48 PM
There is no way in hell I'm paying 15$ a month just to keep up with people. But obviously they don't tell us the price. I might pay 5$ a month, top. A permanent option would be a much better one, but if at least the monthly fee isn't ridiculous... Plus, it'll have to include Auraxium.

So yeah, I'm expecting to be skipping on this game big time. I don't care so much that this is Pay to Win, though I wish they'd stop lying about it. All I care about is the price.

I still dont get how people think this is pay to win. That whole thread on the beta forums is about that and someone on there brought up a good point, if you dont like it suggest something else. This game isnt set in stone yet they are always looking at feedback from us and they have to make this game profitable some how.

SFJake
2012-09-17, 02:56 PM
I gave many kind of feedbacks, but its not on my words or anyone else's that SoE will change their business model.

The truth is, the guys behind PS2 are very passionate and want to give us the best and will listen to feedback on the game itself, but whomever decides how to make money has their mind set. Alternative options don't even seem to cross their mind.

I believe the best model for this kind of game would not be a Free to Play model at all, but a Paid game with a limited trial (limited in content, but unlimited in time).

But they're not going to change that, and even smaller suggestions or other payment alternatives will go over their heads just the same.

People still massively hated implants or real time limited boosters, they're not going to change either. I think you can see my point.

Timealude
2012-09-17, 03:05 PM
People still massively hated implants or real time limited boosters, they're not going to change either. I think you can see my point.

Im not gonna disagree with you here, but I still just dont understand why people hate the boosters system for the games. Right now I even feel the guns buying them with in game currency is pretty good. Its not like other games where they set the price so high on the weapons that its basically forcing you to buy them with real money. As far the XP boosters and resource boosters go it really doesnt (or shouldnt) give you an advantage because all they are good for is gaining certs which are going to be balanced with each other.

SixShooter
2012-09-17, 04:51 PM
Im not gonna disagree with you here, but I still just dont understand why people hate the boosters system for the games. Right now I even feel the guns buying them with in game currency is pretty good. Its not like other games where they set the price so high on the weapons that its basically forcing you to buy them with real money. As far the XP boosters and resource boosters go it really doesnt (or shouldnt) give you an advantage because all they are good for is gaining certs which are going to be balanced with each other.

I agree. Certs don't make you better at the game or get you more kills which is why I don't get the PTW outrage. The only thing that certs do is give you more options on how you want to customize each loadout.

I really don't feel that there is going to a point in the game where I'm all pissed off because I was killed by someone who spent more money and had more certs than me forcing me to rage quit. There are other games where that happens because many weapons can't be earned, only bought and paid for with RL cash. PS2 does not work this way and thats why I don't see it as P2W.

People aslo keep throwing around the phrase "keeping up with" that I really don't get. What are you trying to keep up with? It seems like we're worried about which kid has the most toys because they have more toys than us and that makes us sad and not want to play the game. Take your ball and go home if thats what you're worried about because it's just childish.:D

Lucifarus
2012-09-17, 04:56 PM
I agree. Certs don't make you better at the game or get you more kills which is why I don't get the PTW outrage. The only thing that certs do is give you more options on how you want to customize each loadout.


I don't want to song like a whiner, but I don't see how the upgraded shields + health for each class doesn't make it easier to kill. If you were to fire your weapon at close range with an opponent at the same time, the one with more certs in that area would win. You can also last longer in ranged fights. Also the grip currently is a upgrade to each weapon, reducing recoil by a pretty good amount. And turn speed for aircraft.

Certs are important to stay competitive, which I'm fine with. They're upgrades, which by definition make you better at your focused role. You can unlock them through playing, though personally I'm going to be paying monthly once that option comes up.

Ghryphen
2012-09-17, 05:00 PM
we've decided to keep passive cert point gain in for everyone and just make it 50% higher for members (although you can also buy separate)
https://twitter.com/j_smedley/status/247801823107366912

Hosp
2012-09-17, 05:22 PM
https://twitter.com/j_smedley/status/247801823107366912

Since I'm becoming a bit more of a casual player as I age:
:love:

Geist
2012-09-17, 06:06 PM
I don't want to song like a whiner, but I don't see how the upgraded shields + health for each class doesn't make it easier to kill. If you were to fire your weapon at close range with an opponent at the same time, the one with more certs in that area would win. You can also last longer in ranged fights. Also the grip currently is a upgrade to each weapon, reducing recoil by a pretty good amount. And turn speed for aircraft.

Certs are important to stay competitive, which I'm fine with. They're upgrades, which by definition make you better at your focused role. You can unlock them through playing, though personally I'm going to be paying monthly once that option comes up.

I believe the idea is that if your brand new, you're at a small but not insurmountable disadvantage to the guy with certs. When they talk about sidegrades instead of upgrades, I believe they think that you have every slot filled with something. So, a guy might have all his certs in armor, and he'll survive better than a guy with certs in sprint, but the guy with sprint can run and outmanuever the guy with armor. Sidegrades. ;)

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Lucifarus
2012-09-17, 06:38 PM
I believe the idea is that if your brand new, you're at a small but not insurmountable disadvantage to the guy with certs. When they talk about sidegrades instead of upgrades, I believe they think that you have every slot filled with something. So, a guy might have all his certs in armor, and he'll survive better than a guy with certs in sprint, but the guy with sprint can run and outmanuever the guy with armor. Sidegrades. ;)

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

That makes sense. Not sure what the sidegrade thing was on about, obviously speed and armor are different, the idea was that someone with all these things vs someone without them is at a fairly big advantage. Having sprint implies you've been playing to get it, also. The biggest example of a obvious disparity between new to experienced player would be aircraft, though that's not with just certs. They don't even get a starter missile. Certs just allow things like increased speed and turning, which are also super important, at least in comparison to a tank which spends less time moving or relying on mobility.

Raka Maru
2012-09-17, 07:55 PM
People still massively hated implants or real time limited boosters, they're not going to change either. I think you can see my point.

Once they realize no one is buying these real time implants, they may change their model. I for one will never buy this. What do they expect us to do with that, a 24 hr gaming session to make sure we get our auraxium or SC worth? A 2 hr session will be less than 10% usage of the purchase. This model is definitely not for casuals, but they were listening about the offline cert gain rage, so I hope they talk this out with the bean counters and convince them with hard numbers.

Sunrock
2012-09-17, 09:36 PM
The Cash Shop gives those with less time a way to stay competitive with those lucky people who can play 4-6 hours EVERY day. Seems like a good idea to me. Besides, Freeloaders are still totally viable in the game, they just have fewer options.

Every one can play 3-4 hours a day if they want to. I red a survey regarding how mush TV people watch each day in average and the result was 4 hours per day. So if people can spend 4 hours a day in front of the TV they can do that with games instead.

But having a cash shop removes allot of game content and that is what sucks most. When you can only buy things from the cash shop even if they are just cosmetic items they do remove content form the game. Because if there where no cash shop you needed to unlock it through game play.

Like for an example with PS2. Now we will be able to only unlock camouflage and other cosmetic things. But if this had been a monthly fee only game you would have been able to unlock those things by completing different achievements witch is 10 million times more fun then using your credit card. Because only game play is fun.

And so what if you don't get server first to do something? Who the hell cares? I been server first in different MMORPGs with allot of different things. (most PvE content). And the grind there is not really enjoyable because its a lonely one. So if the majority of players are casual players you should have allot of friends that are on the same level as you and you will have allot more fun experience of the game then those that goes for server first. So I have no clue what you want to pay money to keep up with that.

And even if you pay thousands of dollars to keep up with the hardcore players they still think you drag them down because you're not online when they are. And that is the only thing that matters. That you're team is online when you are. I know this is maybe something that casual players ever have experienced but it's quite annoying not being able to do anything in game because your waiting for some one to log in that never shows up.

PS: Also cash shops removes all bragging rights of have completed achievements witch makes competing achievements less fun...

Geist
2012-09-17, 09:54 PM
That makes sense. Not sure what the sidegrade thing was on about, obviously speed and armor are different, the idea was that someone with all these things vs someone without them is at a fairly big advantage. Having sprint implies you've been playing to get it, also. The biggest example of a obvious disparity between new to experienced player would be aircraft, though that's not with just certs. They don't even get a starter missile. Certs just allow things like increased speed and turning, which are also super important, at least in comparison to a tank which spends less time moving or relying on mobility.

Of course they're different. You only get to have one suit modification at one time and you have to choose between armor, speed, grenade capacity, shield recharge speed, and flak armor. You can only have one, so they are sidegrades. You can have armor, but if you want speed, you'll have to sacrifice that armor.

Considering it only takes a week of playing to get missiles for your aircraft(and by then, hopefully you got certs to get upgrades for that aircraft), the disparity is not bad at all. Especially considering the default gun is probably the best bullet-based weapon in the game.

TheBladeRoden
2012-09-18, 07:24 PM
Once they realize no one is buying these real time implants, they may change their model. I for one will never buy this. What do they expect us to do with that, a 24 hr gaming session to make sure we get our auraxium or SC worth? A 2 hr session will be less than 10% usage of the purchase. This model is definitely not for casuals, but they were listening about the offline cert gain rage, so I hope they talk this out with the bean counters and convince them with hard numbers.

The best way to get your money's worth out of the boosters is to leave the game open while you're sleeping, eating, and working. AFK problem solved!(?)