Backpacks, looting and lockers [Archive]

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PClownPosse

2012-10-21, 02:49 PM

One of the funniest elements of ps1 was the ability to loot opponents and use different faction weapons. I remember as a TR, I had a locker full of jackhammers.

Anyone know why they decided to leave this element out? A casualty of the classification system? I really enjoyed that game element.

Zulthus

2012-10-21, 03:35 PM

They left it out because it's way too difficult to figure out for 95% of the playerbase they're targeting.

Captain1nsaneo

2012-10-21, 03:43 PM

They cited balance issues as the reason for no looting and vehicle hacking. They said they didn't want the certs to transfer with the weapons or some such.

As for my own lockers the highlights include: a ton of NC and TR vehicle ammo (mainly thunderer/BFR rail cannon/raider ammo), a trophy JH, a 100 round decimator, a large collection of Repeaters and Magscatters, weapons from the wild west event, a useless grenade called a minesweeper that technically I shouldn't have, a force blade/magcutter/chainblade, enough radiators to cook you and all your friends, an old maelstrom, and enough ACEs to kill a gen.

Oh! And a glue gun in EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

I love my lockers.

PClownPosse

2012-10-21, 03:45 PM

That's too bad.

I still crack up thinking about all the times I've looted someone only to find a backpack full of hacking tools, or an infiltrator with nothing but AP ammo lol.

Zulthus

2012-10-21, 03:48 PM

They said they didn't want the certs to transfer with the weapons or some such.

Am I the only one who sees absolutely no problem with this? So a gun drops with a 3.4x scope and a laser dot, why is it a balance issue when you pick it up and use it?

PClownPosse

2012-10-21, 03:50 PM

Yeah, just need to add inventory lockers and make looted weapons unusable until properly certed. Wasn't it this way in ps1? I forget.

Captain1nsaneo

2012-10-21, 03:53 PM

Yeah, just need to add inventory lockers and make looted weapons unusable until properly certed. Wasn't it this way in ps1? I forget.

You needed the similar cert to use whatever weapon you picked up or hacked yes.

The issue I think is certs don't work like they used to. Personally I have no problem with the idea of picking up a weapon and using it regardless of if you've got it yourself or not. Most of the situations when this would happen are few and it adds to the presence of the world.
(also I edited my first post with a bit of hubris)

Zulthus

2012-10-21, 04:09 PM

I actually have a flamethrower MedApp in my locker... I forgot how I came to acquire it..

Captain1nsaneo

2012-10-21, 04:30 PM

I actually have a flamethrower MedApp in my locker... I forgot how I came to acquire it..

Ha ha! I've heard about those! I don't have one but I know how they came to be (or at least a story has been shared with me about them).

OpolE

2012-10-21, 05:13 PM

Cheers for reminding me of those little things that make Planetside 1 still worth playing over PS2 anyday!

PClownPosse

2012-10-21, 05:32 PM

Cheers for reminding me of those little things that make Planetside 1 still worth playing over PS2 anyday!

Lol, I wish I saved my screenshots, but I remember for a short stretch of time I would take a ss of the funniest backpack content I would stumble across.

Like the dual wielding JH heavy with no ammo and every square filled with hacking tools. I was like lol, what were they thinking?

Lol, those backpacks were like little Easter eggs.

basti

2012-10-21, 05:45 PM

Like the dual wielding JH heavy with no ammo and every square filled with hacking tools. I was like lol, what were they thinking?

And you wonder why the inventory got removed?

The system was fine once you got used to it. But Lets take a look at every other FPS out there: Do they have a inventory system even remotly similar to PS1 system? Nope.

Now, why confuse the crowd with such advanced systems that didnt really add that much to the game? It simply was a over the top complicated thing. Granted, it gave us lots of freedom how we went out into the field, but i remember very well how i tried to explain the system to new players.

And if you can spend a hour or two, or a several pages long post on a forum, to explain something as fundamental as the loadout to a new player, then you got a problem. You need people to be able to hop in and play if you want to get a big audience, and not require them to spend a few hours figuring out the very basics.

Carver

2012-10-21, 08:21 PM

PClownPosse

2012-10-21, 09:01 PM

It was worth it to me, as we had a lot of grudge matches against certain people and clans and it was always fun to surprise them with a taste of their own medicine, lol.

Anyways, I think it's still feasible provided they gave us some inventory space, both on our character and a locker.

Hamma

2012-10-22, 08:07 PM

As awesome as the inventory system is it would be to complicated.

Xaine

2012-10-22, 08:09 PM

They left it out because it's way too difficult to figure out for 95% of the playerbase they're targeting.

Sadly, this.

Crator

2012-10-22, 08:11 PM

You don't need inventory space (old PS1 system) to do the same thing in the class load-out system. All they have to do is allow mix-n-match of class items in load-outs not related to the class you're currently using. To balance it they could limit what exactly you could use on a different class plus limit it's use more if using it on another class (i.e. Med tool doesn't heal as fast). They could also use battle rank to limit what you could use or how diverse you could be in your load-outs.

The looting portion is solved by allowing you to throw down your current weapon and picking up the one you want to loot. Make the looting action only work right after you've killed someone: You press a button to see what can be looted then click on something to loot it. Now all we need is lockers if we want to save those looted weapons for a rainy day.

Figment

2012-10-22, 08:30 PM

It wouldn't be hard at all.

What should be avoided is bad gear things like gold ammo. Beyond that... Really? Hard? No. What lacked was a small tutorial on that as people didn't know what gear did till waaaaaaaay late in the game it was added. But by then the influx of new people was low.

And Basti? What did you mean by it didn't add anything?

I mean, it added creativity, options, imagination, experimentation, flexibility, specialisms, practicality, trade-offs, uniqueness, complementation, small team viability, freedom, semi-independence and above all, your own personal preference and character.

What do classes add? Uniformity, rigidity, advantages to the numerically advantaged, lacking longetivity, forcefulness, standardisation, someone elses choices, RPG-style overdependency...

You don't see any difference between the two?

Jerry Husky

2012-10-22, 08:57 PM

As great as the inventory system was. It would be far too complex for Ritalin popping 12 year olds. And frat-boy variety teenagers.

Figment

2012-10-22, 09:05 PM

As great as the inventory system was. It would be far too complex for Ritalin popping 12 year olds. And frat-boy variety teenagers.

Good thing this game is rated then.

Jerry Husky

2012-10-22, 10:53 PM

Good thing this game is rated then.

Doesn't stop grandma from buying it for little Timmy. :(

Hamma

2012-10-22, 11:24 PM

PClownPosse

2012-10-22, 11:29 PM

That's understandable.

Actually, you bring up a good point. The cert system menu seems a bit confusing at first, and to me (who granted, isn't the brightest bulb in the lot) was a bit overwhelming upon first inspection and a turn off. I'm sure they can simplify it even more. Too many submenus IMO.

Galron

2012-10-23, 01:04 AM

I don't want to manage inventory I want to kill things. RPGs are >>>>> that way.

Illtempered

2012-10-23, 04:04 AM

It wouldn't work with the Class System. Can't have everybody picking up guns they aren't supposed to use. I know some people hate it, but classes are here to stay.

But putting that aside, is the amount of time you'd spend looting players, then stashing the loot in lockers really worth it? All that effort to equip a Jackhammer, to likely run in and die within 60 seconds and lose it all. It just seems like a waste of time. And i'd hate to see a bunch of players too busy looting corpses or too worried about losing their precious weapon to actually contribute to capturing objectives.

It would seem that way at first, until you start playing with people that go 20, 30, or even 40 kills before dying. When you had the right equipment in your locker, whether it was ancient tech, superior enemy weapons, or glue-guns, it made a real difference in planetside. There is no such dynamic in ps2, which is a shame in my opinion.

...not to mention all the cool things you could do like store boomer triggers in your locker and remote detonate gens from the other side of the continent...

Raka Maru

2012-10-23, 05:29 AM

All they need is an unlockable (cash shop?) custom character that you can have fun with mix and match inventory. There, class system for the kiddies, deep customization for the advanced.

Figment

2012-10-23, 06:51 AM

They want people to jump right in and play. Inventories don't fit into that.

People are already getting confused and quitting out of the game last thing we need is for them to have to figure out how to squeeze their medkits in.

I want PlanetSide 2 to be a success, for it to be one some sacrifices need to be made.

Hamma, you are asking us to be openminded about classes, I'm asking you to be openminded about inventory. Hear me out on this:

The class system is the same as giving a hungry man a fish: you help him for one day. It is more important to teach a man how to fish, which in this case doesn't just mean angling, but how to build their own fishing gear. Give them some rods to start with, certainly, but don't stop the man from building his own for his own prefered and needed fishing styles!

Though I think there is nothing inherently wrong with the PS1 system, the problem has always been communication (interaction explanation), knowledge generation about the tools (that includes experience) and context understanding (game environments).

You can refine, reinvent and reimagine the inventory system in many ways. Such that it is more understandable, or such that there are more clear differentiations. Doesn't matter in terms of hopping right in, because you can start with "basic classes" as standard setups, without losing the entire inventory system. I find the PS2 system completely convoluted in comparison. It isn't simpler, it's just differently depicted and rigid, the first makes it actually harder to see what the options are and the second simply means there are no options to make things deliberately predictable for enemies, but not useful for you. The enemy doesn't need that amount of predictability. Besides, with such short ttks on infantry, you think anyone cares? Oversimplification and paternalisation is not a stimulus for players to be creative and doesn't provide long term incentives. In fact, classes are a deterent for long term play. It doesn't have much appeal and it does drive people away: long term players to be exact. The classes already bore a lot of ps1 players and classes are never an unique selling point. It shows the lack of imagination and creativity you can put in this game and that reduces a player to a mere uniform, standardised instrument without a sense of personality and uniqueness. In the world, the trend is to show your own uniqueness so this doesn't fit with that at all. I hate it when people think that designing while keeping the lowest common denominator and standard in mind means you are not allowed to design for others as well. CoD actually solves this by having standard kits and custom kits, why not use that?

You can start of with GOOD sample setups with GOOD explanations on why they look like that by refering to the above. That has never been the case in ps1. First of all, the basic loadouts were bad. Second of all, tutoring lacked. Third of all, you didn't get a head start in the type of player you wanted to be. Most MMO start of by explaining the class of character you are making, why not let people make choices in the creation screen that gives them some pre-certification and tutoring on that role in this game? In PS1, sample loadouts had no explanations at all (no pop ups, nothing) and gave no information on how to setup for other roles. The game should tutor players in this in little steps and with tips as they start playing the game. Nothing to forceful and players should decide what information is important.

The PlanetSide series is a game series you play in the long run to play it well. Regardless if you look at options or experience. The new player has little need for "just doing it", because you will always be able to just fire, but far more need for training in the why and how, planning for fights and understanding how this game's combat flow, game play and context differs from others.

If they choose to skip training, that is not something you cannot do anything about. In PS1, turorials were late and not obligated. However, you remember the ! at new objects that would create popups? That really helps to explain tools. What it did not do, is explain what players might use them for and in combination with other things and in what kind of slots, how many you can use etc. These popups should get more depth and lead to help pages if so desired.

You can use the loading and installation screens as a tutorial screen as well.

I often hear people say they can't find the fight. So, why not make an intro movie where the player is taken to Auraxis and after basic respawn and ability instructions drop them in a fight?

See, pretending this game isn't complex doesn't help the player. It is a nice idea that you can just toss them in, but that is exactly what you should not do. You don't need them to go through hours of training first, but you should use all time the player has pre-battle to give them a frame of reference, give them knowledge on how to obtain more knowledge and communicate to them that they are rookies, but will be trained to be the next Hero of Empire X and that all these other people are there to help them get there, but that this really is something new and awesome and they should give themselves a chance to master it. Manage expectations.

Cutting out one piece of complexity won't make the game easier, this particular one only makes it harder to deal with the contexts. You just have to communicate better.

Qwan

2012-10-23, 08:02 AM

I wish they would bring it back, I miss having weapons that actually kill. I think as a VS in PS1 I never used Vanu weapons,(maybe the lasher), I had a locker full of NC and TR weapons. Now im stuck with just VS weapons, I remember un loading 25 rounds from my orion into a cloaker, he turned around and two shot me with his pistol. O god I miss looting.

MrBloodworth

2012-10-23, 10:31 AM

And you wonder why the inventory got removed?

The system was fine once you got used to it. But Lets take a look at every other FPS out there: Do they have a inventory system even remotly similar to PS1 system? Nope.

http://www.ieet.org/images/uploads/deusex2.jpg

http://lazytechguys.zippykidcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Deus-Ex-Human-Revolution-Screenshot-6.jpg

http://borderlands.davesgameworld.com/images/borderlands-screen-caps/mustikos-borderlands-most-expensive-rocket-launcher.jpg

http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/396028-s-t-a-l-k-e-r-call-of-pripyat-windows-screenshot-the-inventory.jpg

http://guides.gamepressure.com/stalkerclearsky/gfx/word/1784257203.jpg

http://www.sshock2.com/ss2mmdb/screenshots/helloworld.jpg

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2007/233/reviews/924919_20070822_screen024.jpg

http://www.platformnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/rage-inventory-system.png

http://cdn.overclock.net/0/0e/0eec88ef_arma2oa2012-06-0522-25-58-81.jpeg

OH, you mean the two titles they copied...... My bad.

PredatorFour

2012-10-25, 12:59 PM

http://www.ieet.org/images/uploads/deusex2.jpg

http://lazytechguys.zippykidcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Deus-Ex-Human-Revolution-Screenshot-6.jpg

http://borderlands.davesgameworld.com/images/borderlands-screen-caps/mustikos-borderlands-most-expensive-rocket-launcher.jpg

http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/396028-s-t-a-l-k-e-r-call-of-pripyat-windows-screenshot-the-inventory.jpg

http://guides.gamepressure.com/stalkerclearsky/gfx/word/1784257203.jpg

http://www.sshock2.com/ss2mmdb/screenshots/helloworld.jpg

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2007/233/reviews/924919_20070822_screen024.jpg

http://www.platformnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/rage-inventory-system.png

http://cdn.overclock.net/0/0e/0eec88ef_arma2oa2012-06-0522-25-58-81.jpeg

OH, you mean the two titles they copied...... My bad.

Modern FPS games with inventory ????? How about DUST 514. Free to play on sony ps3, great game - perfect example of how a modern shooter can essentially have a class system AND inventories. Devs take note !:lol:

MrBloodworth

2012-10-25, 02:26 PM

No other games are "modern" other than BF and CoD. Did you not get the memo?

:nono: Think of the children for gods sake!

PredatorFour

2012-10-25, 06:08 PM

My bad i forgot about that memo. I think it was the same memo that said cos a game is old, it is shit. I apologise again i shouldve re-read , infact i`ll go read it again just to be safe:groovy:

texico

2012-10-25, 07:38 PM

Why not just stick an "advanced" button somewhere once you select one of the classes that opens up an inventory? They don't have to scrap the whole class model/remove class skins etc.

New, impatient players will just select their class as usual, that process wouldn't even have to change from what it is now. But anybody more willing to explore deeper and micro-manage can hit an advanced button and have more fine control over their equipment.

The notion that an inventory is too complicated just does not swing with me. It's a very very basic point to understand that an inventory represents THINGS that you're CARRYING. Even Runescape has a backpack system; how young are the kids playing that? Maybe the cert system was complicated, but suggesting that a holster and backpack is a complex system of equipment selection is vastly underestimating the intelligence of players to stupid levels.

But even if you want to assume that, just use the "advanced button" system I said about and new players wouldn't even have to notice anything was different if they just want to jump into a class and zerg.

Beerbeer

2012-10-25, 07:57 PM

That's a good idea. A choice between "standard" load outs and classifications and the ability to customize if desired.

Hamma

2012-10-25, 08:45 PM

Because then it has to be balanced now with custom classes in mind.

SztEltviz

2012-10-26, 05:07 AM

Beerbeer

2012-10-26, 08:51 AM

Yeah, the complexity of this game has nothing to do with inventories (or lack thereof) in my opinion, but the interface.

They really need to make the menus much simpler, easier to use and more explanatory, so simple that even a cave man can use it, lol.

The menu buttons need to be larger, more obvious and more centered on the screen and there should be less of them; reduce the number of buttons or eliminate as many duplicate or superfluous menu buttons as possible, like other buttons and submenus that lead to the same thing. Maybe even change the structure of the menu buttons so that submenus appear in the same window as the primary menu and there shouldn't ever be more than one level deep.

I really HATE that previous button, which isn't apparent based on location and size and should never have to be used in the first place unless absolutely necessary (read, too many damn submenus).

I looked at this game like an impatient, young kid (lol) and that's what I would fix. An easier way to wade through all of that junk, even if it is only superficial, it would make a big difference IMO. In other words: there's too much clutter.

There are a lot of little, simple things that they can do to widen the appeal, while still allowing for a deep level of gameplay.

Figment

2012-10-26, 11:56 AM

Because then it has to be balanced now with custom classes in mind.

So you're saying the weapons aren't balanced right now?

Classes have very little to do with weapon balance aside from the extreme armours (MAX/infil).

Ruffdog

2012-10-26, 05:19 PM

I can see the logic of stopping jetpack snipers or medics with chainguns, but there should be no reason you can't loot a vs carbine to swap out your nc carbine or whatever.

Babyfark McGeez

2012-10-26, 08:31 PM

So they say "Our future players will be so stupid that they can not understand a backpack or they will be unwilling to think for a few minutes to set up a loadout. Hope you are happy to play with them, because it's a team game and they are your teammates to help you."

This made me want to play...

This mindset ("casual" = dumb, but pays money, therefore to get money, game is aiming at "casuals", and needs to be dumb) is, what i am sometimes afraid of, the guideline for the devs (and not only the devs of PS2).

Crator

2012-10-26, 08:34 PM

^ It could be both you know. Just a thought. ;)

NC Waffle

2012-10-27, 01:29 AM

I agree with Figment having played lots of old games and modern ones that focus on inventory to suddenly go to a game that is supposed to be a new genre of FPS with the MMO and set a standard for all others not to have an inv system is just horrible foresight. Yes I'll support it for a while to see if it improves but as of now I have no true hope for the game as anything other than something to do when my other games get to a frustrating point where I need to go kill some mindless zergs and watch them get even more erratic.