Resources - A little pointless?

[Xaine]

I like the idea of having these in the game, but the way they've been implemented as of this moment seems rather pointless.

I've never heard "Lets take X because we can deny them Y resource!' called on vent. If you want to deny the enemy something, you take their tech plant.

I've never not had enough of something so that I couldn't buy what I wanted, as vehicles have a cool down.

Honestly, I haven't looked at my resourse generation rate at all, haven't looked at how many I have at one time either.

I just play the game as if they're not there, because they have absolutely no effect on my game play what so ever.

This sort of ties into my idea that the meta game really needs some help right now.

[Stormhall]

That's why I feel they could've done something with Auraxium instead of have this Cert Point system but nope people have to complain about this crap.

[Zulthus]

In my opinion? Completely useless. I never pay attention to them, and when I need something, I always have plenty of resources for it. As you said, nobody ever tries to capture bases to deny enemies their resources.

Bring back backhacking, add more USEFUL benefits and facilities (Amp station benefit is basically worthless)

[Stormhall]

When Auraxium existed people used to deny the enemy resources quite a bit and the incentive to defend a base was huge so I say we bring back Auraxium.

[Infernalis]

I guess we'll have to wait 1-2 years before they do something meaningful with it. Unless they drastically increase the cost of the vehicle and even then I doubt there will special attacks on x ressources sites.

[Xaine]

In my opinion? Completely useless. I never pay attention to them, and when I need something, I always have plenty of resources for it. As you said, nobody ever tries to capture bases to deny enemies their resources.

Bring back backhacking, add more USEFUL benefits and facilities (Amp station benefit is basically worthless)

Hate to say it, but PS2 meta-game could learn a massive amount from
PS1 right now. I'm not really sure how that happened, I always thought they had some grand plan for it but yeah...

Zerging around turning stuff purple is great and all, but really - there needs to be more RTS in this FPS.

[NCLynx]

The only time I ever pay attention to the resources is when I'm just on to solo for a little bit and I start pulling vehicle after vehicle.

OR.

When I want to use up all my infantry resources to top of grenades/med kits again.

[Crator]

They got to have some plan for the resources to mean something, right? I mean, the entire Lattice vs Hex discussion was shot down by SOE mainly due to the resource system. And for what, so they could charge money for resource boosts that don't mean anything really anyways?

[Phrygen]

The only time I ever pay attention to the resources is when I'm just on to solo for a little bit and I start pulling vehicle after vehicle.

OR.

When I want to use up all my infantry resources to top of grenades/med kits again.

This.

Course i always solo.

[Snipefrag]

Hate to say it, but PS2 meta-game could learn a massive amount from
PS1 right now.

You are comparing apples and oranges. PS2 has just come out of beta, compared to the same point in PS1's life cycle we have just as much of a meta game, my memory is hazy (it was 10 years ago lol!).. But there wasn't lattices until just after launch, no command rank, no LLU, no capitols, no viruses, no link benefits, no cont lock benefits, no modules.. And much more.

Higby has said the meta game is one of their main focuses in the immediate future.. They know that to keep people playing they need to mix it up and add depth to the game.


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[Snipefrag]

And yes, resources are completely pointless at the moment. They totally realise this, I'm sure it will be addressed.


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[Aaron]

Yep, currently pointless. My outfit hasn't even mentioned resources as an objective, and understandably so.

Personally, I think resources as a meta-game implementation is a lose-lose aspect of the game. If you try to make them important, then you deny letting some people play roles that they want to play. If it is left as it is, no one really cares about it. If it it is somewhere in the middle, it may only annoy players.

Soooo, I think it is something that has failed. They've tried it to see how it works, and that's fine. Trying new things is great, but I think this one is a no-go.

Taking territory and bases should increase your advantage on the continent like taking a tower in LoL would increase your advantage on the map. Bases and territories MUST have critical importance. It should play out like a game of chess where strategy is definitely involved and is a means to victory.

Also, adding auraxium back to bases would add incentive to take bases, but for the wrong reason. Your auraxium gain would not critically impact your empire's advantage on the continent.

Meta-game, meta-game, meta-game, meta-game. The devs have got to make some decisions.

[Ghoest9]

Yes tjeyy are pointless - I soppose they limit ssome of the large vehicles for froe bad pilots and drivers but thats it. No one pays any attention to what effects any particular resource.

[SturmovikDrakon]

I"m not feeling the concept either

[Electrofreak]

I think part of it has to do with the fact that they're so evenly distributed right now. If you hold a patch of the map, it's fair to say that you probably hold a pretty even spread of resources. What they need to do is cluster certain types of resources more, placing them in areas where other empires can push in and grab a cluster.

Frankly, I miss the lattice system. I think every PS1 player does. It just gave the game a logical flow while also adding a tactical element. It gave your empire a purpose, a fairly clear objective based upon the tactical decisions of the leadership.

"Let's hit X base so that we can get Y bonus, and then depending upon what base the enemy throws their forces at, we'll determine objective Z."

Resources could be the same way if they were more clustered. Until you go to pull a vehicle and cannot because your empire has 0 of a certain kind of resource, it's going to be an issue. Part of the issue is that there are outposts near your warpgate for each kind of resource, and so as long as you have SOME resource gain, people are simply going to go Infantry for a bit until their resource pool fills back up. If you have NO resources, you better damn well believe that people are going to try to get a resource node so they can have their precious tank / aircraft / MAX suit back.

I think the only way this is going to happen is to remove resource nodes around warpgates and to instead place them in clusters around the center of the map for empires to fight over.

[CrankyTRex]

I have the same feeling, but I think it's the timers that have to go. The timers are rather redundant if you're going to have resources, and they pretty much prevent you from ever running out of those resources.

More importantly, I'm far more likely to get annoyed with the timer because it seems entirely arbitrary as to why I can't pull another vehicle, as opposed to us not having enough resources for that vehicle such that I can focus on capping some stuff that will generate more. Nothing is more infuriating than getting TKed or something and then having to wait 5-10 minutes to generate a new vehicle.

As far as resources themselves, I think the problem there has been that they only use one type of resource each. One would think that the different parts assembling those vehicles and weapons would use up different resources, and if you have no incentive to care about anything but one type of resource, so long as that one is exceeding your timer, you're not going to care what is going on otherwise.

[Electrofreak]

I have the same feeling, but I think it's the timers that have to go. The timers are rather redundant if you're going to have resources, and they pretty much prevent you from ever running out of those resources.

More importantly, I'm far more likely to get annoyed with the timer because it seems entirely arbitrary as to why I can't pull another vehicle, as opposed to us not having enough resources for that vehicle such that I can focus on capping some stuff that will generate more. Nothing is more infuriating than getting TKed or something and then having to wait 5-10 minutes to generate a new vehicle.

As far as resources themselves, I think the problem there has been that they only use one type of resource each. One would think that the different parts assembling those vehicles and weapons would use up different resources, and if you have no incentive to care about anything but one type of resource, so long as that one is exceeding your timer, you're not going to care what is going on otherwise.

It's a good point. Resource regeneration rate would be a lot more noticeable without timers. /agreed

The only problem is that timers are a big part of SOE's boost system and there are certifications built around them too.

[CrankyTRex]

It's a good point. Resource regeneration rate would be a lot more noticeable without timers. /agreed

The only problem is that timers are a big part of SOE's boost system and there are certifications built around them too.

I think they could just redirect those boosts into getting a higher resource gain and not hurt their system any. After all, the resource generators are effectively timers themselves. If you only got resources as a result of a cap, instead of regularly from a base, it would be different.

Another problem with that timer issue is the newbies, especially pilots. Most people who pull their first plane are going to go 50 feet and slam into something just getting used to the flight model. I don't think many of them are going to take well to then being told they have to wait another arbitrary 10 minutes before they can try again when it's showing they have plenty of resources.

[Crator]

^ It's a subject that, I think, is a balancing nightmare. DEVs got to be careful not to gimp the players too much with this. Then it just isn't fun. Fine line and possibly extra game mechanics needed to resolve completely.

[Xaine]

You are comparing apples and oranges. PS2 has just come out of beta, compared to the same point in PS1's life cycle we have just as much of a meta game, my memory is hazy (it was 10 years ago lol!)..

Fair comment, but in my mind that isn't an excuse.

If anything, thats a reason why they should have a working meta-game. Planetside 1 has been around for 10 years, so with all that experience how can they launch the game without any sort of solid meta-game at all?

Just because something has come out at a later point (10 years later, with that much more technology/experience/data behind it) doesn't give it an excuse to be worse. Quite the opposite in my mind.

[CrankyTRex]

^ It's a subject that, I think, is a balancing nightmare. DEVs got to be careful not to gimp the players too much with this. Then it just isn't fun. Fine line and possibly extra game mechanics needed to resolve completely.

Well, in terms of new mechanics, one thing I had thought of during the Beta was making the timer local to a given facility.

[Crator]

I'm not opposed to trying it out. Did they try no timers in beta? I don't think they did due to the fact they want to sell boosters. They need to reconsider some of the money grabs in this aspect to make the game mean something more. I've always hated the resource system anyways...

[Rolfski]

I have yet to come across a team that is capping bases for resources, so deleting the vehicle timers while increasing the resource costs would probably improve the game big time.

I've never liked cool-down timers. It's a frustrating and artificial gaming mechanic and SOE is using it way too much in this game.

[Fenrys]

Surrounding a warp gate to cut off all resources seems like a better plan than trying to hold onto every territory that produces a particular kind of resource.

The only time I ever pay attention to the resources is when I'm just on to solo for a little bit and I start pulling vehicle after vehicle.

OR.

When I want to use up all my infantry resources to top of grenades/med kits again.

You beat me to it. That's pretty much what I was thinking after reading the thread title.

[CrankyTRex]

Thinking on this some more, what I would try if I were game king for the day is this:

Vehicle timers become local to individual facilities, including the Warp Gate, and any timers that are still active will be an option to display on the map (enabled by default.) This has two advantages. One, the timer can be explained as the manufacture time, so it seems less arbitrary, and two, it will discourage people just standing around waiting for a timer to expire rather than proceeding out into the fight.

In order to further encourage this, very few facilities will spawn all types of vehicles. I've long felt that biolabs should not spawn aircraft, and towers should not spawn tanks, for example. It would be a much more tactically interesting game if losing one of the outposts dramatically decreased your ability to produce a given vehicle, thus making attacking and defending these places much more necessary. Frankly, I'd like to try breaking this down by individual vehicle as well, but I'm not sure if that would result in too much complexity.

For resources, I think 3 resources is good and easy to manage, but I think each vehicle should cost something of each, instead of just one. In that vein, I would rename them something like Biological, Chemical, and Mineral. Depending on what you're trying to build, you're going to use more of different ones.

Nice round numbers to keep it simple. For example, a Flash could be 10 mineral (the body), 10 chemical (the gas), and 5 biological (tires). A grenade could be 1 chemical and 1 mineral, no biological needed for that. Etc.

The best thing about doing it this way is that each resource becomes intuitively tied to the facilities. A biolab is going to produce biological resources, naturally. A mining facility minerals, etc. That helps players to know where they should be going and what they need to contest. It also furthers the goal of keeping everyone interested in tactical thinking, as nobody can ignore any particular resource just because it isn't involved in their particular playstyle.

This all kind of relies on the idea that each continent can supply each other though, because otherwise a continent lock will become very easy when one side gains momentum.

[Crator]

Here's an interesting thread I just ran across: Resource system needs a major overhaul. Here's two (http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/resource-system-needs-a-major-overhaul-heres-two.52684/)

[SpottyGekko]

I too feel that the resource system was great in theory but fails in practice in PS2.

If PS2 was a niche game catering to a specific group of monthly subbers, then resource limitations would most likely have worked. You would play the game because you enjoyed that kind of system, and were prepared to deal with the consequences of having your empire (and therefore yourself) starved of certain resources at certain times.

But PS2 is a mass appeal game, and arguably the majority of the target audience will not accept the consequences of resource shortages. They want to fly or drive a tank whenever the timer lets them. They accept timers, but they won't accept the fact that other players can deny them their vehicle or consumable of choice. They will complain that they (personally) can't affect the resource supply.

Resources and the fights over them probably belong on a "higher tier" of PS2, such as the idea of having separate continents where outfits can build bases using resource supplies. Much like EVE, that would create a whole new aspect of game play, where only teamwork can EVER produce a sustainable result.

But it leaves the core game worlds unchanged so that casual solo'ers can spam tanks whenever the timer lets them. It keeps the masses playing and paying for XP boosters and fancy weapons so that they can brag about their BR and K/D ratio's :D

[Electrofreak]

Here's an interesting thread I just ran across: Resource system needs a major overhaul. Here's two (http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/resource-system-needs-a-major-overhaul-heres-two.52684/)

/like

[ShadetheDruid]

I think one simple thing they could do to improve the resource system a lot and have it actually factor into tactics would be to concentrate the resources into specific spots more, rather than having them spread out all over different hexes in 5s and 10s.

If there was a single mining facility (for example) giving, say, 30 mechanised resource* (as opposed to 4 or 5 hexes all over giving much smaller amounts), that would be infinity more important tactically straight away.

In that sort of system, I wouldn't even give "minor" hexes or things like towers resource bonuses at all. They would still be tactically important, just in other ways, such as access to specific vehicle types (i'd be on board with limiting the vehicles outposts/non-main bases could spawn to specific types, like towers only spawning aircraft for example), and general advantages based where the base is on the map and the surrounding terrain (and how it links to other hexes). That might have to go hand in hand with redesigning some outposts to make them more valuable defensively, but at least taking away a +5 resource from a minor outpost isn't going to make it any less important than it is right now.

If they did this and removed the timer (i'm assuming they'd have some way to refund people certs spent on aquisition timers), I think it would add more strategy without having to massively overhaul anything. Whether it would work or not though, I don't know. But I think if you're down +30 resource from a mining base you just lost (as opposed to losing a single outpost that only gives you +5), you're actually going to feel it.

*As an RTS fan, i'd love it if things cost different amounts of different resources (like the post by CrankyTRex above), but I don't know how much RTSness people want wedged in their MMOFPS. :P I hope they do keep the resource system and manage to refine it into something fun (and that actually matters).

[Elahhez]

Give it time, game has been out 6 days, geez ;)

[Mavvvy]

Yeah as someone else said resources only matter for things that they shouldn't really effect in the first place, mines and nades etc.

There is no real value in vehicles, it seems like there was a conflict in design direction ie."yeah massive air and tank battles" but "also want a meta" now the game is confused, as am I.

[SpottyGekko]

<snip>

*As an RTS fan, i'd love it if things cost different amounts of different resources (like the post by CrankyTRex above), but I don't know how much RTSness people want wedged in their MMOFPS. :P I hope they do keep the resource system and manage to refine it into something fun (and that actually matters).

When I think of RTS mechanics, I automatically assume that resource supply is entirely under my control. My decisions on where to concentrate my forces and attacks/defences are directly related to my resource supply. How well or badly I play entirely determines my resource supply, because I control my entire "faction" or "empire" in the game.

In a RTS-style PS2 you would be dependant on how your entire faction performs. Your resource supply will depend on the decisions, needs and skills of all players in your faction, most of which you will never talk to or possibly even see. I suspect a lot of MMOFPS'ers will baulk at placing their vehicle supply in the hands of arbitrary strangers.

Especially if 2/3 of those strangers are actively hostile :D

[PoisonTaco]

Resources only matter when you're invading a continent or getting close to locking one. When you have few territories on the map, resources are minimal and you do need to watch what you're pulling or you'll run low.

[Bags]

I'm always strapped for infantry resources.

[Ghoest9]

Prices on the best stuff (heavy tanks and Lib) should go up - but we should be allowed to trade resources between players. Even trade them for cert points.

[Crator]

^ Squad/Outfit resource pools? Dump your extra resources here so team can use them?

[Sirisian]

Resources only matter when you're invading a continent or getting close to locking one. When you have few territories on the map, resources are minimal and you do need to watch what you're pulling or you'll run low.
We had a discussion about this a while ago and this was the key idea that what is missing. That is, resource denial being a continuous objective. You hit the main idea. At the moment since resource accumulation is completely based on global continent actions it does not affect local strategy on the front lines in the slightest nor an individual's or squad's tactics in the short term.

I have a section on my site (http://sirisian.com/planetside2/#Territory_and_Resources) that lists many of these issues brought up before the tech test even started which still exist. The main idea though as a solution is essentially to remove the current resource accumulation system and replace it with a more consistent player driven system and a territory system with local costs for spawning vehicles. So spawning on the front lines without an outpost makes the cost of a tank more expensive. Pulling from behind lines is cheaper, but you have to drive further. The full explanation is on my site, but the basic idea is that taking front line benefits directly hurts a player's purchasing power on the front lines leading to them having to invest more resources to fight there and forcing them to take and keep benefits. As an example you can imagine if you lost an outpost for a base suddenly tanks would be 50 more resources at the connecting base.

However, without other changes to the resource system this is somewhat short sighted. Aircraft for instance can be pulled from inside friendly lines quickly and don't suffer from the same logistics issues as vehicles.

The bigger issues with resources is they have very little usefulness outside of vehicles. You buy grenades and mines and such but in the current implementation you stock up on them for future battles. At no point are you in a position where you spawn and have to make the choice right then and there if you want to use a grenade or not. It's why myself and others in numerous threads have brought up terminal purchasing systems. On my site it's listed as a universal playstyle resource sink (http://sirisian.com/planetside2/#Territory_and_Resources-Universal_Playstyle_Resource_Sink). That is every spawn you purchase your gear with resources and all your cert upgrades as pure vertical upgrades. The idea being to even out the playstyles for those that never pull tanks or aircraft. Right now the game revolves around an idea that you are a universal soldier. You switch perfectly between a MAX, grunt, pilot, and driver in order to fully utilize your resources non-stop as you get them. This is not how most players play the game and removes any form of specialization that players want to hold onto. Then again that could be the point to fill the sky and the ground with vehicles which I've been thinking is why there's a lot of AA lightnings that randomly pop up in certain areas because people feel they can't use their resources for their "specialized" role and instead are spawning vehicles simply to use resources.

Prices on the best stuff (heavy tanks and Lib) should go up - but we should be allowed to trade resources between players. Even trade them for cert points.
I brought up a subjectively better solution a while back. The idea is illustrated in this image (http://i.imgur.com/AiZsR.jpg). Players would queue of their vehicles with costs for each seat and lock them to public, squad, outfit, or friends. This allows players to share costs when investing in a vehicle that will be used primarily by a group. The last bullet point on this page (http://sirisian.com/planetside2/#Territory_and_Resources-Universal_Playstyle_Resource_Sink) explains the full implementation. Kind of relies on a few other changes to be made, but the basic idea works for their current resource implementation.

[StumpyTheOzzie]

Can't be bothered to find my old post... But "I told you so"

Back in the day (early beta) resources mattered. I said that people will complain and then drop rates will go up till they are a useless device that nobody cares about!

+1 for me!

[Rbstr]

Esamir is pretty tough on air resources when you're trying to run an air wing. We've run into that problem before.

Unless you've got a resource bonus. Then you rarely have to worry.

[wutzibu]

Ever since me and a few friends got a bit organized and I got a Sunderer with deployment capabilities. Mechanical resources was an important issue when we decide where to attack. Since whenever my sunderer gets killed prematurely due to annoying teamkillers ("yo imma pwn that thing with ma gunz even if it has my colour"), Heavy air strike (3 mosquitos with ATG missles on one sunderer) or by simply running into 2 magriders at the same time. My whole squad has to wait until i have enough ressources to get an new sunderer. If thats the case i search for areas with mech resources to capture whilst we use other means of fighting.

I cant say that the ressource system has little to no effect on the gameplay, it is no crucial Part of the gameplay. But it is an interesting aspect of the game which forces Players to diverse.

To the point of make the ressorce gathering process harsher:

If i imagine my team with limited to none Air ressources, i can see that a lot of casual players would stop playing the game. it would only lead to situations like: if we are loosing we are loosing even harder.