Why so nerfed?

[lazerface]

So it seems to me that the NC are the most nerfed out of all the races, but I dont really see why. Terran have insane fire rates and their heavies have the T7 which I've seen one good heavy use to take out platoons. While we might have Jackhammer, the Vanu also have the Lasher which I've seen to be much more effective then the Jackhammer and just ass effective as the T7. The Vanu guns have no recoil or drop, and the fire rates are pretty ridiculous as well. The Mosquito is the fastest of the air vehicles as well as the most maneuverable along with the Scythe coming in for a close second. While the Vanguard is more armored then the other tanks, it lacks the maneuverability of the mag rider and prowler as well as the speed. All this just makes me wonder, what do the NC get that gives us an edge? And if nothing, what did we do get so Nerfed?

[JoCool]

They did not. Don't believe the ridiculous chatter on the forums.

The guns across the factions are streamlined into cross-faction categories and almost carbon copies of one another (e.g. close range carbines, most people think VS has the best one even though TR and NC start with different categories and can unlock equivalents).

This has been said by Matthew Higby in the Beta forums many times.

[Sturmhardt]

They did not. Don't believe the ridiculous chatter on the forums.

The guns across the factions are streamlined into cross-faction categories and almost carbon copies of one another (e.g. close range carbines, most people think VS has the best one even though TR and NC start with different categories and can unlock equivalents).

This has been said by Matthew Higby in the Beta forums many times.

There seems to be some truth to it:
http://de.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/13a0jc/the_definitive_damage_time_to_kill_and_overall/

It's 10 days old and there has been a patch in between, but I don't think it changed things all around. There also seem less NC on Miller than all other factions and I don't think it's because of the NC design....

[Dragonskin]

^He beat me to it. I didn't refresh my page for awhile... anyway..

Lasher is the best griefing weapon in the game. According to this info that is mostly what it is good for because it's TTK is about the same as our Beamer pistols.

[Hamma]

Everyone thinks everyone else is overpowered which means they have done a pretty good job on balance. Only the devs know the true statistics.

[Infernalis]

If only we had the stats we wouldn't had so much ridiculous chatter.

[Xaine]

The Vanu guns have no recoil or drop, and the fire rates are pretty ridiculous as well.

I don't mind people bitching about balance, apart from when they just say stuff that is completely incorrect to make their point seem better.

No recoil? Really now? The rest of your post was rendered completely irrelevant when I read that part.

Get your facts straight before you start bitching about something. Thanks.

Also, the only time you ever have to worry about bullet drop is when you're using a Sniper. Very rarely otherwise.

[Dragonskin]

Also, the only time you ever have to worry about bullet drop is when you're using a Sniper. Very rarely otherwise.

You can notice bullet from on long range engagements with NC guns for sure. Guns you probably shouldn't be long ranging with to begin with, but it's there. But yea, VS guns do have recoil. Some more than others, but none that I know of are zero recoil.

I think the sniper rifles are pretty much universal now or there doesn't appear to be a faction difference other than cosmetic anymore. I think at 1 time in beta the VS didn't have bullet drop, but at that time thier bullets never killed at long range either.. so it didn't matter that you didn't have bullet drop.. you also didn't get kills at range because you would hit once and the enemy would just hide haha.

[Bags]

According to the stats TR have the best guns, but it's not to the point where one faction's guns will turn you from bad to good.

I can maintain a 3.5 - 4 / 1 KD on either faction as purely grunting.

[bjorntju1]

I play mostly NC but I hate the guns, the guns have way to much recoil compared to the other factions. I created an VS character yesterday just to try them out. I instantly got an 8 killsteak just as infantry. I think that never happened on my NC character since I can't hit shit because of the horrible recoil. Saying VS guns have zero recoil is overreacting, but it isn't that far off.

VS guns have much less recoil and they just shoot a lot better than the NC guns. However I do have absolute garbage performance on this game so that doesn't help either. (however I had bad performance on VS too)

And even if NC guns hit the hardest, If you miss half of your shots because of the ridiculous recoil it doesn't matter. If I hadn't spent SC on my NC character, I probably would of switched to VS.

I am not the greatest player ever, absolutely not. But I just feel alot of the time that I just can't get a kill because the recoil is so bad compared to other factions.

[Ghoest9]

You can say its not true all you want - but the NC guns in general(and the starter LMG in specific) are much more sensitive to recoil.

The devs thought they had balanced this with other traits - but for the large majority of players this one trait makes the guns hard to use.

Maybe the majority of players just suck at FPS - but whatever the case they cant kill shit very well with those guns.

[ShadetheDruid]

From my experience, if anyone's playing an NC heavy and having trouble with the recoil on the Gauss SAW (or if you're a compulsive reloader like me :p ), i'd say just chuck the thing and go for the Gauss SAW S or the GD-22S, both of which have much more manageable recoil (especially with the forward grip). They do less damage (and the GD-22S has a tiny magazine), but you'll find it much easier to hit stuff.

I got myself the latter and i've never looked back.

[SturmovikDrakon]

is the problem really in recoil and not their COF?
recoil is manageable, but I often times find that their cone blooms faster than the other factions

[Crator]

It does seem stock NC assault rifle on HA has too much recoil. I deal with it and still get good kills but would probably be better if it wasn't so bad. I've only been playing NC lately so didn't have anything to compare it to. I did play TR last night for a few minutes and it seemed to have little to no recoil compared to the NC one.

The other issue I have is with shotguns. When are they viable? Only in teams? How are you supposed to survive as HA with a short range weapon and AV. Shouldn't shotgun users be able to carry a medium range assault rifle instead of the AV as an option? IMO, not having it this way make the Jackhammer not as useful an option to play with compared to the other empires.

[lazerface]

I don't mind people bitching about balance, apart from when they just say stuff that is completely incorrect to make their point seem better.

No recoil? Really now? The rest of your post was rendered completely irrelevant when I read that part.

Get your facts straight before you start bitching about something. Thanks.

Also, the only time you ever have to worry about bullet drop is when you're using a Sniper. Very rarely otherwise.

I suppose I should have been more specific, I didn't mean absolutely recoil. But I've played all three factions, and the Vanu have so little recoil its almost not even noticeable. With NC, if I'm firing shots just across a tech plant or other battlefield that has open spaces like that, with the gauss it'll jump up a half meter or so every shot. Granted that might not be entirely accurate but its still much more of a problem then it is for the Vanu.

[Tooterfish]

In the top 15 of the leaderboard, the NC have two. :/

[rhilir]

all empires infantry weapons like they said are the same. We tried it in beta. The only real difference is the main battle tanks.

[Dragonskin]

all empires infantry weapons like they said are the same. We tried it in beta. The only real difference is the main battle tanks.

That might be true, but each faction can start with a different weapon which skews the perception that it is all balanced. Like the VS and TR infiltrators start with the semi-auto rifle while the NC has the bolt action. Guess which one I frequently heard being complained about in beta for being OP while I was playing all three factions? NC infiltrators.

[lazerface]

My point with this wasn't to just talk about the weapons, I also feel as if the NC vehicles are nerfed as well. The scythe hovers before you even spend any certs, and the mosquitoes are the quickest and most maneuverable. Shouldnt the Reavers at least get superior firepower? The prowlers have more maneuverability and more shots, not to mention the mag-rider turbo. There isn't really an NC trait that gives it an edge.

[FuzzyandBlue]

For me the largest problem with the NC guns is not that they have a lot of recoil, its that after the first two or three shots the recoil becomes unpredictable. Maybe its not the recoil its self but the animation of firing has you're gun jumping all over the place which makes me feel like I have to correct for that. Also hip firing is almost impossible on a moving target.

As some have said tanks feel fairly balanced, I do feel like the prowler is a little on the weak side though. I'm not sure why though, any TR what to chip in?

[Xaine]

Not sure I believe that.

None of the Carbines the VS have match the TRAC-5. Fire rate, damage, low recoil and good range.

[Saintlycow]

Like Hamma said, we tend to think that grass is always greener on the other side.
How many times have you killed someone and said "Man, he must think my gun is op"

In terms of infantry, I feel that its pretty balance, although I'd say TR is best, but by a small amount. Dat trac-5

[Chewy]

is the problem really in recoil and not their COF?
recoil is manageable, but I often times find that their cone blooms faster than the other factions

I wonder something about PS2s gunplay.

Is the COF due to RBS (random bullet spread) or the movement of the gun (like in ARMA for example)?

A game with RBS ties recoil hand in hand with RBS. So that means no matter how you fight recoil with skill, you'll never be able to aim the gun as well as someone with a low recoil gun. Staying on target will not only be harder for the high recoil player, but it'll still miss just as much thanks to RBS.

[GLaDOS]

My point with this wasn't to just talk about the weapons, I also feel as if the NC vehicles are nerfed as well. The scythe hovers before you even spend any certs, and the mosquitoes are the quickest and most maneuverable. Shouldnt the Reavers at least get superior firepower? The prowlers have more maneuverability and more shots, not to mention the mag-rider turbo. There isn't really an NC trait that gives it an edge.

That's not really true. The Scythe can hover better than the other aircraft, true, but the Reaver is actually the quickest, considering it has the best afterburner and vertical lift. That lift is quite helpful in dogfights as well (it might have better weapons, too, but I don't know). The Vanguard is actually 5 KPH faster than the Mag, and has more health. Also, the Mag's turbo is its special ability, which the Vanguard has in the form of a shield that makes it invincible for a few seconds.

[james]

I wonder something about PS2s gunplay.

Is the COF due to RBS (random bullet spread) or the movement of the gun (like in ARMA for example)?

A game with RBS ties recoil hand in hand with RBS. So that means no matter how you fight recoil with skill, you'll never be able to aim the gun as well as someone with a low recoil gun. Staying on target will not only be harder for the high recoil player, but it'll still miss just as much thanks to RBS.

Its COF, the COF for the lmg on at 10m is several meters wide

[AThreatToYou]

Guys. I'm sure you're all experienced players, but if you're NC, burst fire is a requirement for all but knife-fight range. I don't mean 3-rounds; a 6-round burst is sufficient to kill a target and is controllable across all 30-round clip weapons at medium range. Gauss SAW is a def. a little bad but there's a 100 cert badass gun just waiting to get certed into for HA.
It is pretty conditional. I would agree with some sort of NC being underpowered but I am not experiencing it personally, just on a faction-wide basis, but there are times where I definitely notice the TR have some things underpowered about them. For example, I have never died to someone using the T8 Chieftan.

[Arkanor]

Everyone thinks everyone else is overpowered which means they have done a pretty good job on balance. Only the devs know the true statistics.

Not really, there's a general consensus that TR ROF and accuracy contributes to a significant TTK advantage. NC infantry weapons, with a couple of exceptions are totally pants right now by comparison. Look at the CARV vs the Gauss SAW or the Repeater vs the Mag Shot.

Now, it doesn't mean the faction is useless. The Prowler has some issues of its own (mainly its special ability that plays completely counter to its strengths), and the Reaver has the superior gun strength that makes for a good ground attack craft.

I personally think Vanu has a slight edge right now due to the crazy holding accuracy on some of those guns and a pretty unique tank (that can cert away it's problem of not being able to shoot over chest high walls).

[Saintlycow]

I personally think Vanu has a slight edge right now due to the crazy holding accuracy on some of those guns and a pretty unique tank (that can cert away it's problem of not being able to shoot over chest high walls).

Doesn't matter how accurate our guns are, if we miss a shot against an equally skilled TR, we loose most of the time.

Of course, Magrider is still op, but the ying and yang are slowly achieving balance:rofl:

[Chewy]

Its COF, the COF for the lmg on at 10m is several meters wide

I asked what makes the COF. COF is just where the bullets go not how they get there.

RBS is where you fire the weapon and it can get a high COF without moving.

What ever you can call what ARMA does is where the bullets go where the gun is pointing, no matter what. Firing a weapon with that takes every movement in to factor where the bullet lands. It'll never shoot at an angle.

It's impossible to control the COF with a RBS gunplay. The ARMA style lets you control the COF by countering the reocil, hard as hell to do but doable.

[Goldeh]

In other news the MCG is fun to use.

Would you like to know more? Pair it up with AA Grounder.

[Sunrock]

Sure VS is easy mode because they have low recoil and only kick strait up.

But TR weapons tend to kick up and to the left or to the right making it really hard to hit anything if you don't use controlled burst fire. Sure TR shoots allot of bullets but each bullet also do less damage. So what is easier? To hit with 3 bullets to do X damage or hit with 1 bullet to do X damage? So don't come here and QQ that TR is OP.

[krnasaur]

moral of the story, trac-5 OP nerf NAO

[Arkanor]

My point with this wasn't to just talk about the weapons, I also feel as if the NC vehicles are nerfed as well. The scythe hovers before you even spend any certs, and the mosquitoes are the quickest and most maneuverable. Shouldnt the Reavers at least get superior firepower? The prowlers have more maneuverability and more shots, not to mention the mag-rider turbo. There isn't really an NC trait that gives it an edge.

The Reaver does have superior firepower. 35 shots to kill any ESF while the Scythe takes 42 and the Mosquito a whole 50.

[Canaris]

my advise slap on a Compensator or Forwardgrip and go about your business


In other news the MCG is fun to use.

Would you like to know more? Pair it up with AA Grounder.

That's how I was rolling last night, twas a lot of fun :D
though I'm still not sure which I prefer more LMGs or the MCG, going to have to kill a lot of VS & NC to figure it out ;)

[Gortha]

Many(Most) players are just idiots WHO SPRAY and PRAY.

I see it in that much videos...

I don´t want to say u are such a guy... no offense.

Try some salvos / volleys of shots and if you start spraying pull your mouse down...

Regards
Gortha

[ringring]

Terran have insane fire rates and their heavies have the T7 which I've seen one good heavy use to take out platoons.

I know I am safe ground when I suggest you did not see this.

[lazerface]

Many(Most) players are just idiots WHO SPRAY and PRAY.

I see it in that much videos...

I don´t want to say u are such a guy... no offense.

Try some salvos / volleys of shots and if you start spraying pull your mouse down...

Regards
Gortha

No, I play counter-strike religiously when I'm not playing ps2, so I dont spray and pray. Ill account for the recoil as best I can but it gets to be slightly ridiculous.

[Tooterfish]

No, I play counter-strike religiously when I'm not playing ps2, so I dont spray and pray. Ill account for the recoil as best I can but it gets to be slightly ridiculous.

As a former competitive CS player, I can say that the insane, random recoil of NC weapons is unacceptable in a game considering an ESports future. Nobody joins NC for a competitive edge but, rather, it is an easy to understand faction. People can relate to "more armor" or, "more punch", while few understand the necessity of ROF, recoil, reload speeds, speed in general and/or bullet drop until they take games like this seriously.

[Jomsdk]

I play VS and i have to shoot NC 6-8 times to get a 100% kill while i get killed in 3-4 shoots from NC so if you want better recoil you should atleast go down 35% in damage imho.

[Juryrig]

Sure VS is easy mode because they have low recoil and only kick strait up.

But TR weapons tend to kick up and to the left or to the right making it really hard to hit anything if you don't use controlled burst fire. Sure TR shoots allot of bullets but each bullet also do less damage. So what is easier? To hit with 3 bullets to do X damage or hit with 1 bullet to do X damage? So don't come here and QQ that TR is OP.

TR carbines kick up and to the right
VS carbines kick up and to the right, but to a lesser extent
NC carbines kick straight up, with small random spread left and right, but with greater vertical deflection than either of the other two.

Based on shooting several clips from each of the basic starter carbines from the same position at the same reference point (a vertical 'line' on the wall) in the warpgate.

Obv different people will find it easier or harder to compensate for each different recoil pattern. I don't personally think any one is significantly advantaged over any other. The devs could make small tweaks to the numbers till the cows come home and you'll never get everyone to agree on what is 'perfectly' balanced (other than all being identical, which I find dull).

[james]

I play VS and i have to shoot NC 6-8 times to get a 100% kill while i get killed in 3-4 shoots from NC so if you want better recoil you should atleast go down 35% in damage imho.

Thats when they actually hit, but then most times half of our shots will fly past your head, do to cof, plus we have the lowest rof, when the VS have the highest and next to no kick

[Chewy]

Thats when they actually hit, but then most times half of our shots will fly past your head, do to cof, plus we have the lowest rof, when the VS have the highest and next to no kick

The COF is what kills me the most on NC. Even at 25m with heavy burst fire I can have most of my mag miss a target with stock guns. It only gets worse at longer ranges.

It may be that I have put all of my certs into support roles and none into any guns yet. I just don't see a point using certs to buff a gun that you're going to replace as soon as you're able to. Stock NC guns may be "alright" in an all round case, but they aren't meant for non-CQC fights. Just look at the MAX. That shotgun can't hit shit from 10m out.

[Maidere]

As a former competitive CS player, I can say that the insane, random recoil of NC weapons is unacceptable in a game considering an ESports future.

This. NC guns are probably on par with the others if you will shoot a dummy for 5 minutes in a row. But PS2 is not WoW and it doesnt work this way here.

[Arkanor]

As a former competitive CS player, I can say that the insane, random recoil of NC weapons is unacceptable in a game considering an ESports future. Nobody joins NC for a competitive edge but, rather, it is an easy to understand faction. People can relate to "more armor" or, "more punch", while few understand the necessity of ROF, recoil, reload speeds, speed in general and/or bullet drop until they take games like this seriously.

I knew it was more than the other guns (played more VS than normal tonight and it was amazing) but it really shows through if I tried to use a scope.

I put a 3.4x on the base light assault gun, it was completely unusable. Even if the first shot hits the subsequent shots fall so far off target and even so far off the aimpoint it can't be used past 75m. This is firing very short bursts (2-4 rounds) and fast single shots.

It's ridiculous. Single shots should AT LEAST hit the target, and hurt harder than the ridiculously accurate VS guns, it ends up being bad because so many shots miss your long range DPS is shit, and the ROF is so low your short-range DPS is shit. Even with short bursts the accuracy is just not there to lay down as quick a kill as TR/VS can (especially VS, even with the damage falloff as their COF seems to be a little closer and recoil lower).

EDIT: For giggles I looked through some personal stats to find if this does really affect me, it certainly *feels that way* but I don't know for sure, well, now I do. My KDR as NC is ~2.8:1 at the moment, probably 1/4-1/3 of those kills being from vehicles. On VS it's about 3.35:1 with slightly over 1/4 of that coming from vehicles. The vehicles seem mostly fine (though I think increasing tank shell speed would do something to balance long range combat vs Mags), but looking at accuracy my averages are typically 3-4% higher using VS. That's a noticeable difference in battle and translates to a real effectiveness difference. The VS damage falloff is barely noticeable compared to the NC accuracy falloff. Less damage is preferable to NO damage.

[Garrix]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AuOojvNLMApVdEtIU1NKenEzNzZOSWNaanFqSUVxL Wc&gid=12

Can you stop with the ludicrous claims that NC have superior damage? They have a very slight damage boost on some weapons, but those weapons fire vastly slower. As in they have a slower TTK. This chart is current to the latest build, btw, and shows that things are just as borked as the first datamining did.

[Tooterfish]

Garrix, damage isn't everything, good players understand that damage is only maybe 20% of the effectiveness in weapon stats. I think I elaborated this in detail already. Are you reading the threads or looking for key words to get worked up over?

[Chewy]

This debate kinda reminds me of MAG on PS3.

MAG also had 3 factions to choose from each with a gun/play style. SVER was the "hit harder" CQC , Valor the middle men, and Raven was the high tech bunch with high ROF. Zipper made one hell of a game with MAG, but didn't do crap to keep it balanced.

In MAG every map was made to have the main objectives in a CQC area. Although the rest of the map could be made into anything every objective was in a tight space that played to one factions style more than the others, SVER. That lead to SVER taking over and holding every game mode there was before long. After that a snowball effect took over and by the time I quit MAG it was impossible for either Raven or Valor or touch SVER thanks to player base alone.

In PS2 it's the other way around. Everything is made to be at range with open bases, exposed cap points, and having vertical play a huge factor by way of drop pods, jetpacks, and aircraft in general. The NC isn't made for ranged battles with stock weapons. They just don't have the accuracy needed for 30m+. Yes with certs you can make accuracy better, but so can the others killing you. It'll be the same fight but from farther away.

Once more I use the MAXes as an example. If I see a TR or VS MAX at 30m as a troop I run due to them being able to kill me easy. It may take a bit but they have the health to tank what I can do. But if Im playing a MAX as NC. IM the one that has to run at 30m out if a troop spots me. Hell, most of the pellets from that scattergun can still miss at 10m out. Think about that. A MAX having to run from troops if they are more than 10m-15m away! WTF is right with that?

There are reasons why the NC on Waterson are often fighting for every inch of land. The NC have taken over a map a few times, but I always see them with the least land if the pop numbers are about equal. I have never seen the NC take the upper hand map wise without having a pop advantage. We have tried many times, only to get pushed back with ease.

[Tooterfish]

MAG is, indeed, a great example of how balance can destroy an otherwise incredible accomplishment of a game.


I have never seen the NC take the upper hand map wise without having a pop advantage. We have tried many times, only to get pushed back with ease.

I have to say, regardless of balance, NC still seem pretty popular, and I think our numbers help even things out most of the time.

[Garrix]

Garrix, damage isn't everything, good players understand that damage is only maybe 20% of the effectiveness in weapon stats. I think I elaborated this in detail already. Are you reading the threads or looking for key words to get worked up over?

You will, however, note that that document shows that much more than just damage is far out of sync. Did you read the link posted, or are you looking for things to get worked up over? :)

[Tooterfish]

I misunderstood what you were saying, you are right and I agree. Sorry for being rude.

[Beerbeer]

NC guns in general (and LMGs in particular) have the largest vertical and horizontal recoil/spread of all the empires. I don't even have to say IMO on this one, as it's just true. Which makes compensation under continuos fire extremely difficult.

NC damage per shot is higher, yes, but it's kind of pointless when it's difficult to hit things with them.

Currently:
High damage : high recoil/large COF + low rof

Should be:
High damage : low ROF
is enough of a counter IMO.

[Chewy]

MAG is, indeed, a great example of how balance can destroy an otherwise incredible accomplishment of a game.



I have to say, regardless of balance, NC still seem pretty popular, and I think our numbers help even things out most of the time.

Ah, a fellow man that played MAG. Good show. (back on topic)

NC may be popular now but it won't last after the first weeks. Using MAG again for example, Valor was the one that had the masses (Ex US army "good guys") and that didn't help them. Granted MAGs downfall was mostly due to maps being locked to each faction and those maps being a "WTF are you thinking" in balance choices for the better half of the games life. However the idea still has merit to my eyes.

If a map is made to fit either ranged, medium, or CQC fights it will always be an advantage it the factions that fit those styles. Both TR and VS can be med to ranged without spending certs to either upgrade or replace weapons. NC have to spend certs to get out of CQC battles. Be that a upgrade or a whole new gun, certs are needed to take the fight to the enemy.

Skill will and is always going to be a factor in this but a wide COF is something skill will never be able to over come. A weapon with a low COF may do less damage, but it can hit far more and at greater ranges with skill as a factor. If you remove skill (make all players equal) and full upgrades on all weapons then the fight will still be the same. With NC being the shortest range faction.

[FreeSpeech]

NC really need a buff in their stock weapons. Basically the creators have made it so that we are useless unless we pay tonnes of station cash to buy the upgraded guns and even then we're only subpar at that point. BUFF NC!

[maradine]

Dude. Stop necroing dead threads. I can't image macro fast enough.

[FreeSpeech]

They'll be dead when they're locked by a TR/VS developer or when the NC issue is resolved.

[maradine]

I think you misunderstand my point. Post away!

[FreeSpeech]

Just try and stop me! :-)

[Wahooo]

I think you misunderstand my point. Post away!

Just like in game... miss the point then blame the weapon. :rolleyes:

[FreeSpeech]

BeerBeer had it right on the nail here with the issue with NC guns.