Higby on Air/AA balance.. Is it the fast track to Airside?

[Helwyr]

I was listening to the PC Gamer Twitch Stream with Higby Wednesday and he made a comment on balance that really left me thinking WTF is he thinking. Essentially Higby said what a lot of the more 'out-to-lunch' Air players have been saying for some time.

They(SOE) do not want ground based AA as a hard counter to Air, just a deterrent. Air is the counter to Air.

:huh::huh::huh::huh::huh::huh::huh::huh::huh::huh: :huh::huh:

So, what are the consequences of this...

Who in their right mind would play AA? It's fairly boring to begin with in PS2 IMO. Add to this its given up the ability to fight non Air units to counter Air, but if it's not meant to kill aircraft then in a game like this the motivation to use it by your typical player is zero... No kills, no certs, no joy! In fact it's not even an effective deterrent at present.

Air is king of the hill, can kill anything not in an inclosed building and can only reliably be killed by other Air units. No unit in the game other than Air is only countered by itself and effective vs everything. Could you imagine if I asked the equivalent for Infiltrators.. Give us the means to kill any unit in the game and a phased cloak that only other Infiltrators can defeat. Yeah it sounds ridiculous, but that's how many view the Air unbalance.

I personally don't want to play an Aircraft Sim, if I could just ignore Aircraft as Infantry that would be one thing, but I fear as more players discover illconsidered SOE vehicle additions like IR/Thermal sights and Scout Radar PS2 is going to get really lame very fast.

[Bags]

The consequences of this is me not spending another dime on the game.

If SOE refuses to balance or give a damn about PS2 post launch then I'll spend elsewhere.


Anyway the general consensus on the forums is air is fine so I don't see that changing

>I agree. Air vehicles should use the main guns. Ground vehicles, well imo they shouldn't even have air defenses.

Yes 1/3rd of the game should completely dominate 2/3rds of the game. I wouldn't give a damn about being useless against air if air was only good against air.


Oh well, further proof in my eyes that the devs for this game are completely terrible... I can't think of anything PS2 does better than PS1, and don't say scale because LOL10FOOTPOP-INs.

I hoped if all else failed they'd at least balance better than PS1...

[Tooterfish]

I spent the 1,000 cert equivalent in cash for the NC's HAWK, the Anti-Air rocket launcher for the HA. This is, and probably always will be, my biggest regret in Planetside 2 micro-transactions.

Here, buy this rocket launcher so that you can be a "deterrent". *sigh* For the record, it takes 3 solid locks and hits to take a mosquito down from full health. I'm not sure about libs. If this is a deterrent for you, time to give up flying.

Frankly, being a meat shield, standing out in the open waiting for locks and being bombed, shot at and humiliated while I simply try to be an annoyance for someone in the air, all while my team is indoors playing the game and earning XP, does not sound like my idea of fun.

[Bags]

I've killed 3 HOVERING, STILL aircraft in 1.5 weeks with it :D

That's almost as many kills as ESF get in one strafe on biolabs with their rocket pods.

[Boomzor]

The whole mind set that something is only meant to be a "deterrent" is silly. When that deterrent comes at the cost of any and all killing capacity against vehicles and infantry it's down right ludicrous.

It should be the other way around.
If you cert into a specialist role forsaking pretty much every other killing capability;

YOU. SHOULD. BE. DEADLY. AT. WHAT. YOU. DO.

Anti air is currently putting all their eggs in one basket and they all turn out to be half baked? Come on...

[Snipefrag]

One person with AA shouldn't be able to destroy an air vehicle on its own unless the pilot is stupid, that's his point. And i agree with it. I guess for all you VS out there that were so used to camping pads with the Skillfire PS2 has been a bit of an awakening to you guys. The counter to air with ground troops? Teamwork. That's the way it should be, the TR on Waterson we're getting zerged by massive amounts of air at one of the bio labs, no one could get anywhere near. You know what solved it? Archangels rolling up with 20 people. AMS, Burster maxes, HA lock on rockets and engineers. Planetside is about teamwork, not one man armies.

[Mavvvy]

Guys its a deterrent individually yes. But two Skyguards and a couple of guys with hawks, do keep the airspace clear.

I'm surprised that teamwork hasn't been already considered in the equation. No one expects a single heavy assault to hold up a tank push, so why should a lone Skyguards be able to take on multiple aircraft buy itself, give that guy a few buddies and its a battery which hits hard.

Even better co-ordinate with other air units setting up a flak-trap works wonders.

That said the hawk could use a little more punch.

[Snipefrag]

Guys its a deterrent individually yes. But two Skyguards and a couple of guys with hawks, do keep the airspace clear.

I'm surprised that teamwork hasn't been already considered in the equation. No one expects a single heavy assault to hold up a tank push, so why should a lone Skyguards be able to take on multiple aircraft buy itself, give that guy a few buddies and its a battery which hits hard.

Even better co-ordinate with other air units setting up a flak-trap works wonders.

That said the hawk could use a little more punch.

Exactly, the people in this thread are thinking about things in a 1vs1 situation. Which in a MMOFPS like PS2 is exactly they way to screw balance up.

[Sledgecrushr]

I see Im stepping into a mess here but, if you run with a2a missiles you will get a boatload of air kills. The game is ballanced so that air dominance fighters dont really have a problem killing other air at all, but air dominance fighter suck at killing ground targets. This will equalize when folks realize that the 1 sec radar lock missile kills are sooper easy xp. So before we rush out with pitchforks and torches lets let the game ballance itself out we are just at the beginning.

[Storn]

I fly my Mosquito with A2A missile a lot and find that AA can be very effective as a deterrent. I have to stay high out of the general AA view to hunt effectively. The problem with people is they want to be able to do it all. You can’t be a one man army able to take down tanks, air, and infantry. That’s what DEVs are trying to get across; it’s a team game. If you’re tired of getting shot-up on the ground get in the air or throw out a Skyguard. I have had several frustrated nights due to effective AA

Like where your head is Sledgecrushr

[PredatorFour]

I killed a TR liberator with 2 direct hits in my mag yesterday overlooking a canyon. That was a free mag too, maybe thats more of a deterent than buying the AA weapons and taking ages to drop them.

[Storn]

I killed a TR liberator with 2 direct hits in my mag yesterday overlooking a canyon. That was a free mag too, maybe thats more of a deterent than buying the AA weapons and taking ages to drop them.

Are you VS with the Magrider sniper cannon :rofl:

[EisenKreutzer]

I've killed lots of air rat, both with the Burster MAX and the Liightning post launch. Still havent killed one with my anti air rocket launcher, but it sure does chase them away.

Even if all theae options are just deterrents, I still fulfill a vital role for an outfit, a role that helps my outfit capture and hold bases, granting me xp in the long run.

[Hmr85]

I have about 35+ kills with my Hawk currently. I would say its doing a pretty decent job and we do not really run into many issues with air. With that said though I am usually sitting on top of a hill with a big AA battery locking down a area. So I get to pick off the stragglers/half damaged for free XP.

302 Found

[Mordelicius]

They ought to give Light Assault a basic Anti-Air rocket that is useless against land vehicles. It's simple logic. Light Assault are the fastest to go up a building or structure. They are the best troops to match against air spam.

At four rockets base, they won't be overpowered at all.

[Morsong]

One person with AA shouldn't be able to destroy an air vehicle on its own unless the pilot is stupid, that's his point. And i agree with it. I guess for all you VS out there that were so used to camping pads with the Skillfire PS2 has been a bit of an awakening to you guys. The counter to air with ground troops? Teamwork. That's the way it should be, the TR on Waterson we're getting zerged by massive amounts of air at one of the bio labs, no one could get anywhere near. You know what solved it? Archangels rolling up with 20 people. AMS, Burster maxes, HA lock on rockets and engineers. Planetside is about teamwork, not one man armies.

Well said Snipe! That was indeed a fun moment. To fully enjoy PS2 I believe you have to run with a good outfit. If anyone plays solo then they're really missing out on the full potential, especially when it comes to the ground AA. I mostly roll an HA and when I see enemy aircraft a couple other clan members and I will fire out ground AA rockets at them. Some of the enemy aircraft will go down, some will turn tail and run, and sometimes we'll die. That is why PS2 is so much fun though. You never know what will happen. :)

[Rat]

I think part of the problem with air being being the hard counter for air, is that air dosent want to fight air. it wants to farm infantry...maybe up the xp gain for air to air kills and lower the xp for infantry kills?

[Tooterfish]

Exactly, the people in this thread are thinking about things in a 1vs1 situation. Which in a MMOFPS like PS2 is exactly they way to screw balance up.

Why should someone who certs entirely into air be superior, ten fold, to someone who certs entirely into infantry or ground vehicle? Why is other Air its only weakness? That is the question I think should be answered.

[Hamma]

One person with AA shouldn't be able to destroy an air vehicle on its own unless the pilot is stupid, that's his point. And i agree with it. I guess for all you VS out there that were so used to camping pads with the Skillfire PS2 has been a bit of an awakening to you guys. The counter to air with ground troops? Teamwork. That's the way it should be, the TR on Waterson we're getting zerged by massive amounts of air at one of the bio labs, no one could get anywhere near. You know what solved it? Archangels rolling up with 20 people. AMS, Burster maxes, HA lock on rockets and engineers. Planetside is about teamwork, not one man armies.

Agreed.

I fail to see a issue with Higby's comments.

My Galaxy was taken out by single air turret on APPROACH to a Tower yesterday. This is with upgraded armor.

Aircraft are far to easily destroyed from the ground.

[Tooterfish]

Having rockets and after-burners is nothing like flying in a Galaxy.

[Canaris]

I spent the 1,000 cert equivalent in cash for the NC's HAWK, the Anti-Air rocket launcher for the HA. This is, and probably always will be, my biggest regret in Planetside 2 micro-transactions.

funny old world, I'd not give up my TR AA missile launcher for anything except maybe one that was like two AA missile launchers in one :D

Ground based AA need to work in teams and I have no issue with it as that's what my crew do.

[Rahabib]

I am OK with air being the ultimate counter to air but air should not be the ultimate answer to everything else

[Storn]

They ought to give Light Assault a basic Anti-Air rocket that is useless against land vehicles. It's simple logic. Light Assault are the fastest to go up a building or structure. They are the best troops to match against air spam.

At four rockets base, they won't be overpowered at all.

Loading an anti-air rocket on a light assault would defeat the purpose of them being light assault even if it doesn't hurt ground targets. :rolleyes:

[Storn]

Aircraft are far to easily destroyed from the ground.

Sounds like you flew a little to straight. The problem with most pilots is that they forget that the ceiling is 999. I find nap of the earth or going high keeps one safe until you’re ready to engage. Or simple have your pilots hit the guns and pads with rockets before you approach. Like you said it’s all about team work :)

[Hamma]

I was flying Nap in a Galaxy, not a whole lot of maneuverability close to the ground in that beast.

I'd drop my squad from ceiling if they didn't die on impact. :lol:

[Storn]

I was flying Nap in a Galaxy, not a whole lot of maneuverability close to the ground in that beast.

I'd drop my squad from ceiling if they didn't die on impact. :lol:

I hear you!

[Mavvvy]

They ought to give Light Assault a basic Anti-Air rocket that is useless against land vehicles. It's simple logic. Light Assault are the fastest to go up a building or structure. They are the best troops to match against air spam.

At four rockets base, they won't be overpowered at all.

That's not a bad idea at all!!

[Soothsayer]

I'd like ESF to have to coordinate to take out my prowler. Teamwork people...

[Rat]

One thing that bugs me about the infantry ground to air rockets, is that a flare will break the lock of a rocket that hasnt been fired yet, I feel that a lock should only be broken on a rocket that is already in the air.
Even when teaming up with a squad of HA, a single flare can break the lock of a dozen rockets that havent been fired yet.

[Kitsune]

Getting bombed?
Call 1-800-AntiAir
We will tell you to get people with AA qualities! The more AA the much stronger your resolve against pesky fighter-bombers! Silly Mosquitoes raining Hellfire Rockets on your garden? No problem! A well placed AA MAX can drive away and or kill those oversized bugs! What? There's more? A few Heavy Assault with homing rockets will save your sunflowers! You will never fear the skies again with the help of your friendly neighborhood AA teams! Call today for your free trial!

...

Long story short,if you wanna destroy aircraft from the ground, use numbers, that's the point of the game after all, work as a team to capture or defend places...

[Stanis]

I can understand the reason for additoinal resilience of the liberator and galaxy.

I do think however, that with a squad of AA maxes and two more squads in support they should demolish anything that flies overhead. They don't.

The typical situation is three libs circling like vultures as the numbers steadily grow because they are just being run off and returning in ever growing numbers.
ESF seem to be far too resilient.

It is suprisingly difficult to actually kill air from the ground - and that is what counts.


The ground game doesn't work to that model.


At range it should be:
AA > ESF > LIB > AA

At less than 100m range it should also be
AA > AIR

[Xaine]

One person with AA shouldn't be able to destroy an air vehicle on its own unless the pilot is stupid, that's his point. And i agree with it. I guess for all you VS out there that were so used to camping pads with the Skillfire PS2 has been a bit of an awakening to you guys. The counter to air with ground troops? Teamwork. That's the way it should be, the TR on Waterson we're getting zerged by massive amounts of air at one of the bio labs, no one could get anywhere near. You know what solved it? Archangels rolling up with 20 people. AMS, Burster maxes, HA lock on rockets and engineers. Planetside is about teamwork, not one man armies.

Really not sure why you had to take a random dig at the VS midway through that point.

It sort of renders the rest of your post inert when you act like a childish cunt in the middle of it.

Just saying.

[Canaris]

Really not sure why you had to take a random dig at the VS midway through that point.

It sort of renders the rest of your post inert when you act like a childish cunt in the middle of it.

Just saying.

your skin, it's almost see through you know

[Revanmug]

I'd like ESF to have to coordinate to take out my prowler. Teamwork people...

Because your 1 man tank require teamwork to be use right? I don't think you'll get much pity for your MBTs considering air is the most efficient way of culling the almighty tank zerg.

I see people constantly complaining about dying to rocket but I can count on my finger the number of time it happen for me. I can't say the same against MBTs.

[Dragonskin]

I don't see the problem with air. Like others have said the most effective way to counter air is through teamwork. Burster maxes, AA rockets and A2A ESF do their job well enough. The problem I see a lot is people not willing to switch roles to deal with air. Then air takes over an area until people finally decide to do something about it.

[MrBloodworth]

All I need is my rocklet.

[Rahabib]

My problem, and this is for vehicles in general, is that the ratio of players feels off. SO to take out an MBT tank its roughly a 3:1 ratio - with heavies, unless the tank driver is an idiot then its still a 2:1 minimum. Air is worse, AA maxes you still need a 3:1 ratio.

So if 1:1 doesnt work (vehicles should be stronger I agree) the problem then is that its too easy to roll in tanks all day. So if you have a squad of say 6, you are far more effective to have 6 tanks (cause now its going to take at least 12 infantry to deal with all of you) or 6 fighters/libs.

I still think the best answer to this is:
increase cool down timer on vehicles or increase resources. In fact you can fix some of the meta game issues by making the cool down timer longer or make vehicles more expensive the further away from the warp gate. You can minimize this by capturing tech plants. This makes tech plants even more worthwhile, and it gives low pop defenders a better chance to hold off full caps.

Also, they need to make the prowlers a bit more effective. They increased the number of rounds, which is nice, but if a prowler has 2 people in it, it should be able to handle a fighter and even put a great deal of fear into a lib. Make the secondary gunner spot cert into lock on rockets. These take a while to reload, but can make a fighter at least have to start using more of their counters and run instead of just turning and blowing up the prowler. Its not a deterrent if the fighter can stick around.

[Xaine]

your skin, it's almost see through you know

Ah, I see!

So i can randomly take digs at people for no apparent reason, and its their problem if they react? I see how this works.

Here we go. Let me know if I do this wrong

You're bad at the game, you're probably overweight and have a stupid haircut. Your faction is full of retards and noobs, which is why all your weapons are so OP.

You also smell strange.

[VelRa]

I was in a skyguard for 2 hours last night. No deaths. Tawrich. 10k XP per hour. I had outfit mates around me but we weren't running ops. Just good aim which got better as the night wore on and bad scythe pilots which remained bad. I do say it was fun.

Setting up 1 squad air batteries is one of my favorite things to do in my outfit. Engineers, a couple medics, bursters, skyguards, and a sundie tucked away.

Maybe AA just isn't for you.

[sylphaen]

What about making ground AA cost air resources so it stays deadly vs. air at the cost of the ability to fly, of range and of awareness and spent on the
same resource pool as air vehicles ?
:brow:

[Dragonskin]

AA is deadly. This isn't COD. You aren't meant to be a 1 man army with all things balanced to a 1:1 ratio. This game focuses on team work.

[Rbstr]

I drive a lot of tanks, I fly a lot of planes...and I frankly don't see the supposed OP of air, especially regarding the ESFs. There's an argument for Lib OP-ness though, I think.

A couple of dual Burster maxes makes fairly quick work of any low flying ESF. When the infantry missiles hit they hurt a lot and they make excellent deterrents.
I've shot maybe a dozen or more aircraft with the Magrider's main cannon...It's not like these things are terribly tough. And esf rocket spam is probably 10% of my tank deaths?

Fundamentally ground based units can't swat aircraft all over the place because that simply eliminates the usefulness of aircraft. There's no reason to pull aircraft of your own if you can simply shoot all of them down from the ground.
And that gets to the Liberator. It's pretty easy to shoot one down with an ESF yet so hard to deal with from the ground.
Maybe some more speed and maneuverability but less some HP would go to fixing that some?

[Soothsayer]

Because your 1 man tank require teamwork to be use right? I don't think you'll get much pity for your MBTs considering air is the most efficient way of culling the almighty tank zerg.

I see people constantly complaining about dying to rocket but I can count on my finger the number of time it happen for me. I can't say the same against MBTs.

I said prowler.

But even if I had said lightning, how come the 1 person skyguard has to work together to take out a single ESF but the ESF doesn't have to work together to take out the lightning? As far as an arugment goes, you can't have it both ways.

[Dragonskin]

I said prowler.

But even if I had said lightning, how come the 1 person skyguard has to work together to take out a single ESF but the ESF doesn't have to work together to take out the lightning? As far as an arugment goes, you can't have it both ways.

Actually in this case it usually takes 2 ESF to take out a skyguard with a competent gunner. Those guns hurt and 1 full rocket salvo may not kill the tank if they have upgraded armor or if some of the rockets don't connect. Trying to get 2 runs in can be your death as a pilot.

Oh and let me add. Tanks are rarely solo. If you are trying to solo an entire faction with your tank.. you are doing it wrong. It normally doesn't take long for the enemy to focus their other skyguards, bursters or heavies at you if you manage to kill the tank.

[Duckforceone]

I fly my Mosquito with A2A missile a lot and find that AA can be very effective as a deterrent. I have to stay high out of the general AA view to hunt effectively. The problem with people is they want to be able to do it all. You can’t be a one man army able to take down tanks, air, and infantry. That’s what DEVs are trying to get across; it’s a team game. If you’re tired of getting shot-up on the ground get in the air or throw out a Skyguard. I have had several frustrated nights due to effectiv

Like where your head is Sledgecrushr

problem is, one ESF, is a one man army. It can take down air, it can take down tanks, and it can take down infantry with impunity.

A few coordinated ESF's with 1-2 libs, can decimate all AA that's trying to kill it, almost no matter how many they are.

Also, the only people doing the AA job, are those that are in serious outfits. No casual player would be in AA, as they would simply not gain any xp and levels, while the pilots would still rake in 1000+ xp per mag of rocket pods.

I can agree, that AA should not do more damage, and Rocket pods should stay at their damage level.... if.. and i repeat, if, AA hits would give 1-2 xp points per hit. That would give ordinary people a reason to go into AA, as currently, when you go AA, you give up on earning XP...

[Snipefrag]

Ah, I see!

So i can randomly take digs at people for no apparent reason, and its their problem if they react? I see how this works.

Here we go. Let me know if I do this wrong

Part of the fun of planetside is taking the piss out of the other factions. Are you new to this? And you did do it wrong.. You bit and got all offended before trying to recover your composure.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bags]

I still don't understand why ESF get to be the counter to everything while requiring 0 teamwork and it boggles my mind that people think it should take a coordinated squad to take one out.

AA is deadly. This isn't COD. You aren't meant to be a 1 man army with all things balanced to a 1:1 ratio. This game focuses on team work.

What part of 1 man ESF focuses on teamwork...?

My Galaxy was taken out by single air turret on APPROACH to a Tower yesterday. This is with upgraded armor.

Aircraft are far to easily destroyed from the ground.

Okay, do you really think anyone thinks Galaxies are a problem? :confused::confused::confused::confused: I haven't seen a galaxy do anything since release, and I'd have no problem with them taking a whole squad of people to take down...

That's pretty strawmanish because I only see people complaining about ESFs and not Liberators or Galaxies.

This is currently the problem: ESF can hover spam, or fly very close to ground targets while spamming rockets, and unless they're terrible pilots or more than 2 - 3 sources of AA are shooting at them, they can get away with it - nothing else in the game can get away with playing this badly. Any infantry or vehicle would be destroyed before it can get away, but air doesn't because it's so fast and strong. Something needs to give.

[Dragonskin]

problem is, one ESF, is a one man army. It can take down air, it can take down tanks, and it can take down infantry with impunity.

A few coordinated ESF's with 1-2 libs, can decimate all AA that's trying to kill it, almost no matter how many they are.

Also, the only people doing the AA job, are those that are in serious outfits. No casual player would be in AA, as they would simply not gain any xp and levels, while the pilots would still rake in 1000+ xp per mag of rocket pods.

I can agree, that AA should not do more damage, and Rocket pods should stay at their damage level.... if.. and i repeat, if, AA hits would give 1-2 xp points per hit. That would give ordinary people a reason to go into AA, as currently, when you go AA, you give up on earning XP...

"problem is, one ESF, is a one man army. It can take down air, it can take down tanks, and it can take down infantry with impunity."

Ok well if this was true then why follow it up with...

"A few coordinated ESF's with 1-2 libs, can decimate all AA that's trying to kill it, almost no matter how many they are."

So now it went from one ESF being a 1 man army to actually having a coordinated group decimating everything... so clearly one ESF is not a one man army at all.

"Also, the only people doing the AA job, are those that are in serious outfits. No casual player would be in AA, as they would simply not gain any xp and levels, while the pilots would still rake in 1000+ xp per mag of rocket pods."

I don't understand this statement. No one does AA because there is no exp in it? Unless you are in a burster max then you would have other options for getting exp because you could use your main gun to kill other things. If you were in a skyguard or turret then you can just get out to kill people. Even if you did focus on just AA there is enough air around heavy battles to get decent exp not to meantion you would help your faction actually cap the territory instead of being pushed out so that you could get the capturing exp.

I would also love to know how you get 1,000+ exp per mag of rocket pods. I can see that if you get lucky killing a fully loaded Galaxy or Sundy, but that is not the norm because Galaxies have AA turrets and competent gunners will kill you and Sundies have people inside that usually carry AA rockets. So it's by no means a regular event to make 1,000 exp per mag. Actually I think you have to be a pretty ballsy pilot to try to take on a galaxy solo. Most solo pilots will leave them alone because the ESF is not a one man army and 4 AA turrets are deadly.

[Bags]

I would also love to know how you get 1,000+ exp per mag of rocket pods. I can see that if you get lucky killing a fully loaded Galaxy or Sundy, but that is not the norm because Galaxies have AA turrets and competent gunners will kill you and Sundies have people inside that usually carry AA rockets. So it's by no means a regular event to make 1,000 exp per mag. Actually I think you have to be a pretty ballsy pilot to try to take on a galaxy solo. Most solo pilots will leave them alone because the ESF is not a one man army and 4 AA turrets are deadly.

I was assaulting a Biolab a week ago, and we were all on one of the air pads trying to get in, and every 10 - 20 seconds a mossie would do a pass and get 5 - 6 kills easily. I stopped going up there, but others didn't.

[Boomzor]

A deterrent?

Why should I be deterred?
They can't kill me.
Thus I have little to fear.

They can annoy me.
At best interrupt me killing with impunity.
Alas, I am many many times more agile than a max or skyguard when it comes to adjusting my angle of approach.
I may just turn that angle on whom ever made me mad.

I am the reaver pilot.
I have my breaker rockets and I can kill EVERYTHING on the field.
Except for my fellow fighter pilots in wrong colours,
but I have my nose gun for that.
I dare you to bring me anything I cannot handle.

Oh, you bring numbers?
*I* bring numbers.

--------------------

Now, I'm not the best of pilots, I admit that. But I am skilled enough to find it pretty damn easy mode.
I don't think AA really needs a buff (perhaps a *slight* increase in effective range) as much as breaker rockets need a nerf against anything but armoured targets.

If flak gets buffed by much more, liberators and galaxies will suffer because they're flying tubs and fridges.

[Dragonskin]

I still don't understand why ESF get to be the counter to everything while requiring 0 teamwork and it boggles my mind that people think it should take a coordinated squad to take one out.



What part of 1 man ESF focuses on teamwork...?

You may not know this, but 1 ESF can't have A2G rockets and A2A rockets. It's impossible to perfectly counter both and flares have a long cool down. It's no different than tanks. 1 infantry soldier is probably not going to kill a competent lightning either. Yet I don't see you complaining about that.

Yet 1 Skygaurd can kill a ESF and 1 ESF with A2G rockets can kill a non-skygaurd lightning. Both are 1 man vehicles.

[Figment]

Guys its a deterrent individually yes. But two Skyguards and a couple of guys with hawks, do keep the airspace clear.

I'm surprised that teamwork hasn't been already considered in the equation. No one expects a single heavy assault to hold up a tank push, so why should a lone Skyguards be able to take on multiple aircraft buy itself, give that guy a few buddies and its a battery which hits hard.

Even better co-ordinate with other air units setting up a flak-trap works wonders.

That said the hawk could use a little more punch.

Exactly, the people in this thread are thinking about things in a 1vs1 situation. Which in a MMOFPS like PS2 is exactly they way to screw balance up.

Just curious, but how many aircraft does it then take to kill a ground unit according to your teamwork argument?

[Dragonskin]

I was assaulting a Biolab a week ago, and we were all on one of the air pads trying to get in, and every 10 - 20 seconds a mossie would do a pass and get 5 - 6 kills easily. I stopped going up there, but others didn't.

Umm... learn to AA. I mean you don't have to go up to the pad to hit the ESF with AA... you can do that from any of the surrounding towers from ground level and if you are on Mattherson that was probably Psychobuzzcut in his mossie.. I saw the live feed. No one tried to counter him.. it was a bunch of zerglings rushing to the pads to get mowed down.

Using zerglings to defend your statement is kinda pointless... zerglings are called that for a reason. They are fodder usually.

[Xaine]

Part of the fun of planetside is taking the piss out of the other factions. Are you new to this? And you did do it wrong.. You bit and got all offended before trying to recover your composure.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You were throwing back to a previous weapon, implying that the VS are used to having it easy (Which by the way, coming from a TR is beautiful). Suggesting that 'now it isn't so easy'.

That isn't you taking the piss, thats you bitching in a smug fashion.

Its always interesting watching people trying to change the meaning of their previous posts, after someone points out they're acting like a brat.

You're not very good at it though.

Oh and by the way, I didn't lose my composure. If you need to compose yourself to post on some forums I suggest you go outside, or get a job.

I actually agree with the points you've made. I just don't agree with you acting like a cunt while you make them. :)

[boogy]

I think the real issue is that infantry have no defense against air. Because of flak damage, infantry can not duck behind cover, and that feeling of being completely powerless to avoid instant death is what causes this imbalance imho. I also play air so I see how powerful AA can be. AA is not underpowered. Infantry just needs to be able to survive better rather than shoot air out quicker. Certing into the highest FLAK armor shourld completely make infantry invulnerable to air and tank unless hit point blank. Crates and wall should actually protect infantry.

[Bags]

You may not know this, but 1 ESF can't have A2G rockets and A2A rockets. It's impossible to perfectly counter both and flares have a long cool down. It's no different than tanks. 1 infantry soldier is probably not going to kill a competent lightning either. Yet I don't see you complaining about that.

Yet 1 Skygaurd can kill a ESF and 1 ESF with A2G rockets can kill a non-skygaurd lightning. Both are 1 man vehicles.

>You may not know this, but 1 ESF can't have A2G rockets and A2A rockets. It's impossible to perfectly counter both and flares have a long cool down.

I was under the assumption that you could have A2G rockets and a strong nose gun too. Are they limited to one?
Plus, a2g rockets can be easily used against Liberators and Galaxies to good effect.

>It's no different than tanks. 1 infantry soldier is probably not going to kill a competent lightning either. Yet I don't see you complaining about that.

You should hear me on voice. :D In all seriousness, the difference here is a lightning can't take out MBTs, groups of infantry, and air with impunity like ESFs can. Sure you can drive into a group of infantry and get a few kills, but you're going to die - not so much as an ESF, from my experience. I'm generally dead from a few rockets before I get a lock on, even with my shield up.

[Bocheezu]

I hate to dredge up PS1 as an example, but let's compare PS1 AA MAXs and PS2 Burster anyway.

PS1 AA MAXs --

VS Starfire: Lock-on missles that required you to maintain the lock for them to track. MAX had jumpjets and could jump a full rocket pod salvo. One clip (about 8 shots I think) was enough to kill a reaver.

NC (Falcon?): Lock-on missles that were fire-and-forget. MAX had a shield that you could activate to eat a salvo of rockets without dying (couldn't fire while shield was active). One clip was enough to kill a reaver.

TR Burster: Flak fire with no warning. Required you to aim, but countered by the ability to lockdown and significantly increase the firing rate. Very difficult to hit libs at flight ceiling, but reavers were not much trouble. One clip was enough to kill a reaver.

PS2 AA MAX:

Burster: Both arms required in order to kill a plane before it flies away to repair. Flak has small AoE and is like hitting the plane with a regular bullet. Fighters are many times more maneuverable than PS1 reavers, making flight paths unpredictable. The farther the plane is away, the more likely they will dodge in some unanticipated direction, meaning that hitting anything beyond about 150m is nothing but luck. Basically, hitting a regular fighter at 150m is like trying to hit a lib at flight ceiling in PS1.

In PS1, pilots couldn't even slow down without getting blown up, let alone hover. Pilots had to hide behind mountains and trees, and only pop up to quickly fire their rocket salvo before going back to hiding. Pilots had to plan their attack and come from odd or unexpected angles/directions to sneak up on AA and kill them.

In PS2, if no air AA is present, pilots often just hover out in the open without a care in the world. They do not hide behind trees or mountains. If a ground AA threat is noticed, they turn and head straight for it head-on and blow it up instead of dashing behind a mountain to escape. They do not plan any attacks and merely see target, shoot target. Any amount of sneakiness (for instance, the simple action of not coming in for a second strafing run the same direction that you left the first one) makes fighter able to at least kill whatever it was strafing before it dies, but often can still survive and easily repair/rearm at the nearest tower to continue to oppress anything on the ground.

[Figment]

Because your 1 man tank require teamwork to be use right? I don't think you'll get much pity for your MBTs considering air is the most efficient way of culling the almighty tank zerg.

I see people constantly complaining about dying to rocket but I can count on my finger the number of time it happen for me. I can't say the same against MBTs.

The best way to cull the tank zerg would be to require it to use teamwork. Not make one single player fight another single player where no one single player can kill the first single player, because somewhere it became unfair to kill a single player just because that player has wings.


It's not like those single airborne players got halo's somewhere along. :/


Mind, with everyone and their dog in the future having G2A missiles, 3 rockets to kill is okay. But till then it's going to be a bit of a mess.



And all that just because everyone has access to every basic unit in game...



We're not the ones with the vision that create balance issues...

[RobUK]

Yet 1 Skygaurd can kill a ESF and 1 ESF with A2G rockets can kill a non-skygaurd lightning. Both are 1 man vehicles.

Have you any idea how long it takes for 1 Skyguard to kill 1 ESF?

The Skyguard is hopeless at its one role. If AA is a deterrent then SOE need to stop with the ridiculous money-grab prices that they charge for AA MAX and Skyguard.

It's not like you can even upgrade the things to make them more potent. All you can do is buy childish skull masks for the MAX and make it look like a short stumpy giraffe. Oh, and you can get "Go Faster" stripes for your Lightning as well. For real world money of course. It's pathetic.

The cert prices and Station Cash prices are obnoxiously high for AA weapons. SOE needs to rewrite their descriptions for AA so that people know not to buy them. At the moment the whole thing is a complete rip-off to unsuspecting customers.

Who on earth would knowingly pay real money for a deterrent in a PvP game that is all about killing suff and gaining XP?

Drop the resource cost completely. Halve the timer and revisit the outrageous cert cost and make it more realistic for what it is.

[Figment]

The whole "deterent" argument is nonsense.


It is propagated by those people that feel entitled because they either invested some certs (who cares) or resources (who cares) and don't apply the same logic on themselves, since they perceive themselves as outright killing machines. Anything that might kill them must at most scare them off. Unless of course, that which kills them is the exact equivalent to themselves.


I have no problem with air having safeish zones at high altitude for dogfighting if at that range they can't effectively fight ground targets due to inaccurate projectile dispersion at that range.

But if they can kill something on the ground, they sure as hell should be taking a heavy risk of being fired upon and should not be able to afford any loitering, but use high speed strafing runs to attempt to hit something.

Rocket pods for instance would be fine with a smaller clip, slightly lower rate of fire and a dispersion where they're made to fire at large objects. They should not be accurate enough or have enough splash damage to hit 10 pixel size infantry with supreme ease, while nobody is to kill them in the process, just chase them off after doing so...

If it can kill tanks in one or one and a half volley of rocket pods, it's not very well balanced. If it can kill a moving, zig zagging Flash at full speed with even 20% accuracy, it's probably too accurate as it's then able to hit needles in haystacks, rather than being a weapon to target Sunderers and tanks with.


(And remember, I'm against solo MBTs, so don't give me the crap that MBTs are one player tanks - I know, I hate it).

[Dragonskin]

Have you any idea how long it takes for 1 Skyguard to kill 1 ESF?

The Skyguard is hopeless at its one role. If AA is a deterrent then SOE need to stop with the ridiculous money-grab prices that they charge for AA MAX and Skyguard.

It's really not as bad as you make it sound. I am a scythe pilot and they do take me out. The scary thing with burster MAXs as a pilot is they can hit you well before they render for you so you don't know where the fire is coming from. Skyguards can be seen from the sky so they are more managable.. mostly pilots don't mess with them in my experience unless they are completely solo and in a position of weakness... like hills around them for the pilot to use for cover while making runs or if they are clearly focused on another ESF so you can take the opportunity shots while they are distracted.

[Figment]

"problem is, one ESF, is a one man army. It can take down air, it can take down tanks, and it can take down infantry with impunity."

Ok well if this was true then why follow it up with...

"A few coordinated ESF's with 1-2 libs, can decimate all AA that's trying to kill it, almost no matter how many they are."

So now it went from one ESF being a 1 man army to actually having a coordinated group decimating everything... so clearly one ESF is not a one man army at all.

Ehr... The option of having a group of one man armies doesn't exist in your world? >.> Because you do realise that's what suggested, don't you?

"One man armies" are units that can take on larger numbers and a high variety of units by being a strong Suiss army knife. A group of Suiss army knives is therefore more devastating and can tackle a group of its supposed dedicated ground based counters with ease, that's what was suggested.

Shame you have to explain this to people in internet debates, for their reading comprehension tends to be purposely on the level of amoebes. I mean, why argue someone's point if you can make up your own argument you have to argue with?

That's called a strawman, btw.

[Dragonskin]

Ehr... The option of having a group of one man armies doesn't exist in your world? >.> Because you do realise that's what suggested, don't you?

"One man armies" are units that can take on larger numbers and a high variety of units by being a strong Suiss army knife. A group of Suiss army knives is therefore more devastating and can tackle a group of its supposed dedicated ground based counters with ease, that's what was suggested.

Shame you have to explain this to people in internet debates, for their reading comprehension tends to be purposely on the level of amoebes. I mean, why argue someone's point if you can make up your own argument you have to argue with?

That's called a strawman, btw.

I've been in squads creating no fly zones that decimated air. What is your point? ESF are strong and I am not denying that, but people talk like they are unkillable which they are clearly not.

Would love to know how many kills I have with my nemesis rocket which I mostly only use if air is a significant issue.

[Storn]

Actually in this case it usually takes 2 ESF to take out a skyguard with a competent gunner. Those guns hurt and 1 full rocket salvo may not kill the tank if they have upgraded armor or if some of the rockets don't connect. Trying to get 2 runs in can be your death as a pilot.

Oh and let me add. Tanks are rarely solo. If you are trying to solo an entire faction with your tank.. you are doing it wrong. It normally doesn't take long for the enemy to focus their other skyguards, bursters or heavies at you if you manage to kill the tank.

You can take out a skyguard if you hit it in the tail with a sigle volley of rockets but thats the thing getting in behind them. Most of the time my wingman and I do rocket runs on them one behind the other and take them down as quick as possible. Only way to be sure :D

[Figment]

I've been in squads creating no fly zones that decimated air. What is your point?

Scythe 65 Killstreak Uncut (Planetside 2 Gameplay/Commentary) - YouTube

My point? Just wondering how many you need to have in a squad to kill 65 aircav lonewolving it.


Notice how easy it is for the Scythe user to rack up kills on targets that could never have seen him coming and how fast he can disengage? Notice how easy the anti-vehicle rocket pods are to use on infantry?

Notice how there's hardly any effective AA around if the pilot treats it as a deterent, while in that same timespan that he is being detered (hit and shot at) that pilot could have killed many infantry and other vehicles? >.>


There's no reason to treat pilots as if they're playing a different game. If we all die fast, certainly to them - even when they are alone (!) - they should die fast to their counters as well.

Now, I don't like that people have mass access to AA. It should be a specialty so they can be more effective and a valuable team member. Cause I also really wonder what else your squad accomplished in that "aircav decimation time". Probably very little since you weren't capable of downing any Sunderer AMSes in that same time span, wern't able to take outposts and wern't able to do anything but defend an outcrop... Which is nice and supportive defensively, but is a big drain on your empire's player number just to deal with a few pilots.

[Revanmug]

I said prowler.

But even if I had said lightning, how come the 1 person skyguard has to work together to take out a single ESF but the ESF doesn't have to work together to take out the lightning? As far as an arugment goes, you can't have it both ways.

MBT are almost fully operational with a single player. Almost being the AV top turret that every tanker is going to use which isn't needed to farm infantry. Did they made the main gun require a gunner since the last time I played which was yesterday? I kind of doubt it...

I'm not going into that debate but just saying you won't get much pity with your MBTs considering zergs of tank are still very common and pretty deadly.

[RobUK]

It's really not as bad as you make it sound. I am a scythe pilot and they do take me out. The scary thing with burster MAXs as a pilot is they can hit you well before they render for you so you don't know where the fire is coming from. Skyguards can be seen from the sky so they are more managable.. mostly pilots don't mess with them in my experience unless they are completely solo and in a position of weakness... like hills around them for the pilot to use for cover while making runs or if they are clearly focused on another ESF so you can take the opportunity shots while they are distracted.

But what does any of that have to do with the outrageous cost of AA in this game?

And with the greatest of respect, if you can't kill a lone Skyguard with an ESF, it's got nothing to do with how powerful the Skyguard is.

I have no problem with AA being a deterrent, if that's how Higby sees AA fitting into his game. I do have a problem with the disgustingly high cost of it and the fact that unsuspecting people are using real money to buy what they think to be a weapon that will help them with character progression.

This game is kill-centric. It's what gets you the only game generated currency that will help a player to progress. When a player buys a weapon, he or she unsurprisingly expects to be able to kill with it. If AA is not primarily a tool for getting kills with, then that needs to be made crystal clear via the description at the point of purchase.

AA is a waste of certs and a waste of real money if kills is what you're after.

[Figment]

MBT are almost fully operational with a single player. Almost being the AV top turret that every tanker is going to use which isn't needed to farm infantry. Did they made the main gun require a gunner since the last time I played which was yesterday? I kind of doubt it...

I'm not going into that debate but just saying you won't get much pity with your MBTs considering zergs of tank are still very common and pretty deadly.

But why aren't you applying the same logic to ESF aircav which aren't even almost operational by a single player, they're fully operational by a single player.


And you're also not applying this logic to a Sunderer, which requires at least three to crew properly.

You're being an enormous hypocrit. You can't use manpower balance arguments as an argument to protect aircav killwhoring. It doesn't make sense to on one hand say a solo unit can only be a deterent to another solo unit, while the next second state that it is perfectly fine to solo multi-crew units JUST because they're not airborne!


By your definition, an aircav should at most be a deterent to any other solo unit! That includes infils! By YOUR definition, they shouldn't be able to kill anything, because they're solo.

Basically, you're full of bogus, so it's not surprising "you're not going into that debate". Because you're not debating, your deluding yourself with a hypocritical justification. That's the only reason you're here.



Are solo MBTs a bad thing? YES. So are solo aircav if this is the skewed balance we get in return.

[RobUK]

MBT are almost fully operational with a single player. Almost being the AV top turret that every tanker is going to use which isn't needed to farm infantry. Did they made the main gun require a gunner since the last time I played which was yesterday? I kind of doubt it...

I'm not going into that debate but just saying you won't get much pity with your MBTs considering zergs of tank are still very common and pretty deadly.

MBT and ESF = apples and oranges. When did you last see a big fat lumbering MBT fly off in the blink of an eye, rearm, repair and get back into the battle inside 2 minutes?

ESF's have enormous flexibility. They are durable and highly manueverable. They can engage any target in the game on their terms at all times.They have no care of land based choke points or obstacles caused by terrain. An ESF is everything that a MBT is, but also everything that a MBT isn't.

I don't know why all the pretence with this subject. The only thing that the ESF genuinely needs to fear is the enemy ESF. Everything else is just an annoyance or a distraction. Nothing else will actually kill an ESF unless the pilot is careless.

Image what a shitfest this game would be if that also applied to the MBT?

ESF should be a glass cannon if it is to stay as powerful and as flexible as it is now.

[Forsaken One]

I just thought of something that we NEED.

Engies to be able to built ACE shields again. But maybe the shields would protect a LOT Vs missiles/arty/explosive rounds/high impact rounds(sniper rounds) but basic bullets/lasers/grenades go through them.

This way Engys could build a spot that AA is fully protected from rocket/etc spam (unless they will to try to aim their nose gun at a AA nest.) and as such they would require teamwork (ground forces with bullets/lasers/grenades.) to take out the AA nest.

[AThreatToYou]

If you think 65 Scythe killstreak is anything, I have had a 72 killstreak in my Lightning, where I destroyed hostile Liberators, MBTs, infantry, MAXs, sundys and lightnings-the whole sh'bang. I'm not seeing any issues with Higby's POV as long as there is some hope of taking out an air vehicle, and that hope right now is with teamwork. Going out alone with one burster, one hawk or one skyguard isn't going to net you much kills, but when I packed up a buddy in a MAX and we both equipped Bursters, mossies and scythes started dieing and we could defend ourselves from infantry. In addition, if you nail a ESF with a HEAT or AP round (which is honestly not as hard as it sounds), they are either set to burning or killed. Liberators are especially vulnerable to tanks.

[Figment]

If you think 65 Scythe killstreak is anything, I have had a 72 killstreak in my Lightning.

That's also ridiculously easy to pull off against infantry with HE shells if you stay at range and spam large groups of infantry that have no hope of ever hitting you (far too easy), especially if you include the door camping of outposts.

One difference though, Lightnings don't fly off as easily when flanked with an afterburner and need to work through terrain to get behind an enemy position at an advantageous position to hit the rear of a vehicle.

I'm not seeing any issues with Higby's POV as long as there is some hope of taking out an air vehicle, and that hope right now is with teamwork. Going out alone with one burster, one hawk or one skyguard isn't going to net you much kills, but when I packed up a buddy in a MAX and we both equipped Bursters, mossies and scythes started dieing and we could defend ourselves from infantry.

You're also using double standards. Great that you can kill air with support from a buddy. But air still kills solo with ease. Why don't you expect aircav to have wingmen or ground support against AA?

Because you do expect ground units to bring AA support against air and in principle you do expect multiple Lightnings to be required to kill MBTs (for instance).



My question is, why are air units treated so differently from other units as if they're a form of entitled royalty?

In addition, if you nail a ESF with a HEAT or AP round (which is honestly not as hard as it sounds), they are either set to burning or killed. Liberators are especially vulnerable to tanks.

To Magriders maybe. Not quite so true for other vehicles.

[AuntLou]

I'd like to see Higby play AA all day long and then ask him how much fun he had deterring all day long. I'm quite taken back that this is the stance they are taking, rather pissed actually.

We aren't asking for allot, just some tweaks. We just need to be able to justify using AA.

You want Air to be the counter to Air which doesn't make sense because Air currently is an easy mode counter to ground.

[RobUK]

I'd like to see Higby play AA all day long and then ask him how much fun he had deterring all day long. I'm quite taken back that this is the stance they are taking, rather pissed actually.



Don't forget that Higby and Smed both love flying. I can't imagine they're going to do anything that will affect their favourite toy. Unless they really have to of course.

I've just finished an hour long session on Miller. I don't know what it's like on other servers, but on Miller there is an absolutely insane amount of ESF's and Liberators zerging around.

I can't believe the dev's really intended for their game to be like this. I just logged off because there's no point in playing outside of a base unless you're in a plane tonight.

ESF's and Liberators outnumber every other vehicle by far now. I hope they do something about it before too many people get pissed off :rolleyes:

[Dragonskin]

Scythe 65 Killstreak Uncut (Planetside 2 Gameplay/Commentary) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTxidhiUubI&feature=share&list=UUlMXf2oP5UiW_V4dwHxY0Mg)

My point? Just wondering how many you need to have in a squad to kill 65 aircav lonewolving it.

Umm.. not going to worry about the rest of your post.. I suppose you actually know who Levelcap is if you are using him for a reference.. but here.. just incase.

He IS a one man army by himself. So yes, please use top level gamers as justification for all your future battles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0ZmA3j5NaQ&feature=share&list=UUlMXf2oP5UiW_V4dwHxY0Mg

To add... in this video we can come to the conclusion that Heavy Assault is OP. He takes out tanks solo and all kinds of infantry.

[RobUK]

Going out alone with one burster, one hawk or one skyguard isn't going to net you much kills.

Why is it then that if I get in a Mosquito I can easily achieve far more kills?

Sometimes the one eyed view that gamers develop over their favourite toy is so infuriating,

By all means, make an argument as to why ESF's should remain so omnipotent. But for goodness sake, this "use teamwork to kill my solo aircraft because this game is about combined arms" mantra is eye-poppinly maddening.

It is a fact of this games current balance that the ESF requires no teamwork in order to get kills with.

[Dragonskin]

This game is kill-centric. It's what gets you the only game generated currency that will help a player to progress. When a player buys a weapon, he or she unsurprisingly expects to be able to kill with it. If AA is not primarily a tool for getting kills with, then that needs to be made crystal clear via the description at the point of purchase.

AA is a waste of certs and a waste of real money if kills is what you're after.

So you are really just upset that this isn't pay to win? All that AA talk and that is what it boils down to? interesting. :groovy:

[Dragonskin]

Are solo MBTs a bad thing? YES.

Here is more proof why you shouldn't use top level gamers as justification for arguements.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWvsJnMSgHE&feature=g-user

Clearly solo MBTs are completely OP with 1 person in it... look at all the people he kills. OMG how is that balanced?..... :lol:

[blighte]

Exactly, the people in this thread are thinking about things in a 1vs1 situation. Which in a MMOFPS like PS2 is exactly they way to screw balance up.

right so what your trying to say is that it should take 3-4 ESFs to work together to take out a tank/liberator/galaxy because teamwork is what balances games

[Rahabib]

the issue, again is, if you are going to make one vehicle better than another (the 1:1 idea) then those vehicles need to be more rare, either with longer cool downs or more resources. If not, then the 1:1 rule should be in effect - ie 1 player can take down 1 player or else everyone is just going to eventually either play all air or just quit playing.

[RobUK]

So you are really just upset that this isn't pay to win? All that AA talk and that is what it boils down to? interesting. :groovy:

What does pay to win have to do with it?

You're making no sense :huh:

[AThreatToYou]

You're also using double standards. Great that you can kill air with support from a buddy. But air still kills solo with ease. Why don't you expect aircav to have wingmen or ground support against AA?

Because you do expect ground units to bring AA support against air and in principle you do expect multiple Lightnings to be required to kill MBTs (for instance).



My question is, why are air units treated so differently from other units as if they're a form of entitled royalty?



I suppose I can see a double-standard there, but it takes more than 1 MAX or 1 HA to take out a Lightning. It does not, however, take more than one MBT, ESF, or Liberator to gut a Lightning, not to say that a Lightning is completely defenseless against any of these things, because a Lightning isn't.

9/10 of my deaths in a Lightning are due to being surrounded, the other 1/10 is due to backing into enemies while trying to retreat and be repaired. Most of the time, in a Lightning, one can skit behind a hill or rock just as fast as an ESF can skit behind a taller mountain, but I do recognize that there is a big difference in what these two things do. The ESF will be much farther away and will have a harder time parking there to repair; it will just take them longer. That's not important though, just something to think about.

I'm not too sure why ESF are being treated differently, because it seems to me that they are not. One HA is little more than a "deterrent" against a MBT, Lightning, ESF or Lib... same for one MAX, really (I admit, I am throwing player skill to the side here, but you can agree right?). Yet, they have to be treated differently because they are different vehicles, meant for solo play. If you're to argue they shouldn't be for solo play, I might agree. PlanetSide is a team game and the ESF seem to be a little odd; running solo in an ESF should be similar to running solo in a Lightning tank, and right now, it seems to be but they are too effective against too many targets at once. I don't know what to do about that.

[Rahabib]

...I'm not too sure why ESF are being treated differently, because it seems to me that they are not. ...
They aren't. Vehicles are the same principle - either make them so that an infantry or at least a max take down a tank or make them cost more/longer cool down.

[RobUK]

I'm not too sure why ESF are being treated differently

Because they are different. They are different to any other vehciles because they have killing power and huge flexibility. An ESF can engage any target in the game on its own terms. In the air, or on the ground. It can rapidly retreat and return fully repaired and rearmed.

An ESF doesn't have to worry about terrain or plotting anything other than a straight course anywhere.

You're not doing any of those things in any other vehicle in the game. Especially not a great big fat slow moving tank.

An ESF is incredibly flexible, is durable, and very powerful against a wide range of targets.

It's also huge fun to play in :D

But that doesn't really make it fair.

[Figment]

Umm.. not going to worry about the rest of your post.. I suppose you actually know who Levelcap is if you are using him for a reference.. but here.. just incase.

He IS a one man army by himself. So yes, please use top level gamers as justification for all your future battles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0ZmA3j5NaQ&feature=share&list=UUlMXf2oP5UiW_V4dwHxY0Mg

To add... in this video we can come to the conclusion that Heavy Assault is OP. He takes out tanks solo and all kinds of infantry.

Wait wait wait, back up there son, you think knife kills are hard and soloing a tank with HA is impossible? >.>

Here is more proof why you shouldn't use top level gamers as justification for arguements.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWvsJnMSgHE&feature=g-user (http://youtu.be/qWvsJnMSgHE)

Clearly solo MBTs are completely OP with 1 person in it... look at all the people he kills. OMG how is that balanced?..... :lol:

And uhm, soloing with MBTs is exceptionally easy to rack in kills with, despite being pretty damn boring. It's one of the things that has annoyed many of us.

Levelcap is pretty much on par with some of the people I play with on a daily basis. Know Dachlatte? Tanking in PS2 is easy if you want to farm kills.

302 Found

But hey Dragon, thanks for showing how easy it is to farm with OP equipment, because Levelcap isn't using exceptional skill there, just consistently applying common sense basic principles - particularly for a Magrider, that's easy.

[RobUK]

Wait wait wait, back up there son, you think knife kills are hard and soloing a tank with HA is impossible? >.>

I was just thinking the same thing.

I have killed loads of tanks by myself in this game. I never managed it in PS1 unless using mines or a Reaver, but in this game it is more than possible.

[boogy]

I just wanted to add to this post that I think Higby was misquoted. He said, something along the lines of - "right now the only thing that can counter Liberators are air, and we need to fix that." Again not a direct quote, but he did aknowledge that air should not be only countered by air.

[Figment]

I suppose I can see a double-standard there, but it takes more than 1 MAX or 1 HA to take out a Lightning.

Ehr, more than one MAX yes, because the AV MAXes are crap. But one LA can easily take out a Lightning. You never used dual C4 and a flanking maneuvre to place two on the rear? >__>

That even works on MBTs and Sunderers...

I'm not too sure why ESF are being treated differently, because it seems to me that they are not. One HA is little more than a "deterrent" against a MBT, Lightning, ESF or Lib... same for one MAX, really (I admit, I am throwing player skill to the side here, but you can agree right?). Yet, they have to be treated differently because they are different vehicles, meant for solo play. If you're to argue they shouldn't be for solo play, I might agree. PlanetSide is a team game and the ESF seem to be a little odd; running solo in an ESF should be similar to running solo in a Lightning tank, and right now, it seems to be but they are too effective against too many targets at once. I don't know what to do about that.

Well when I first saw the Reaver - when I thought the Mossie was still going to be the basic common pool airchav - I thought they designed it to be a two crew unit (finally). :/ Unfortunately they have this weird policy that everything must be multicrew and multi-buddy teamwork to be balanced (aside from ATVs, okay), ASIDE from the three most powerful and/or versatile units in game:

Lightning (most versatile ground unit with heavy firepower against infantry and previously, against any air), MBT (most powerful and highly versatile ground unit) and ES Aircav (most flexible, versatile, agile and speediest units of all with the firepower that rivals a heavy tank against ANYTHING).

It's kinda mindboggling and makes no sense in the remainder of the game's vision. Solo units should be more like the ATV than the Liberator in firepower and endurance. But apparently, Smedley doesn't think that is fun. MBTs should be like Libs, but also in terms of manpower use (two or three crew minimum to fire guns). Aircav should be easy to take out if they have high firepower, like Fury's were in PS1. Though I'd rather see dive bomber type A2G units be like buggies in PS1. Fast and nimble, but light to medium armoured with a two crew requirement.

That just makes a lot more sense. Hell, the Lightning (with a bit more armour) as a two crew and MBT (with a bit more armour) as a three crew unit makes more sense than they do as solo vehicles, though if the Lightning had lighter guns, I could still see it as a solo unit that traded some firepower for speed and mediocre endurance.

[Ghoest9]

It should be nearly impossible for fighter craft to kill infantry baring a suicide crash.

That would fix everything.

Lib kill ground forces. Fighters kill everything that flys.

[Graphic J]

I find no problem with Air being the Air killer. AA is basically a deterrent in almost any other Dog-fighting game I've played, why not PS2.

[Figment]

So you are really just upset that this isn't pay to win? All that AA talk and that is what it boils down to? interesting. :groovy:

Ehr no, certing into something is a form of purchase as well. 1000 CP is not something you gain cheap.

I find no problem with Air being the Air killer. AA is basically a deterrent in almost any other Dog-fighting game I've played, why not PS2.

Are those dogfighter games AA units manned by players and defending players on the ground?


This isn't a PvE flight sim with only PvP A2A. Ground units have just as much right to fun as the aircav do. And yes, they have equaly long if not longer timers than air units. And yes, they too require resources - and in case of the Sunderer, double that of the ESF.

So really, can you lot come up with a good argument for Aircav soloing being more powerful than other units soloing? No...

[Ghoest9]

Umm.. not going to worry about the rest of your post.. I suppose you actually know who Levelcap is if you are using him for a reference.. but here.. just incase.

He IS a one man army by himself. So yes, please use top level gamers as justification for all your future battles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0ZmA3j5NaQ&feature=share&list=UUlMXf2oP5UiW_V4dwHxY0Mg

To add... in this video we can come to the conclusion that Heavy Assault is OP. He takes out tanks solo and all kinds of infantry.


If levelcap can kill 60(or even 30) aircraft in a row with out dying as an infantry then yes you have a point.

Otherwise you lose.

[RobUK]

I just wanted to add to this post that I think Higby was misquoted. He said, something along the lines of - "right now the only thing that can counter Liberators are air, and we need to fix that." Again not a direct quote, but he did aknowledge that air should not be only countered by air.

That's odd because I'm sure that KevMo said that he wanted things that way? The idea was that Libs would kill tanks and ESF's would kill Libs. Friendly ESF's would kill enemy ESF's that were in turn killing friendly libs.

What he described sounded awesome because it gave ESF's and Libs clearly defined roles. It certainly sounds a lot more interesting than the dull and predictable air spam that we have now. This game is every bit as bad now as when we had the massive tank spam in beta.

[RobUK]

So really, can you lot come up with a good argument for Aircav soloing being more powerful than other units soloing? No...

Exactly.

This is the real crux of the matter. The ESF is just too good at too many things. It is the omnipotent solo vehicle of PS2. It absolutely encourages and rewards solo play and requires team play to deal with it. It is a relatively low risk high reward cert farming tool in comparison to other offensive vehicles in the game

A classic example of counter play. A big mistake in any PvP game.

[Figment]

The thing is, they at first made these guns that were decent against "stuff in general", then they added "sidegrades". Sidegrades suggesting they'd be worse at one thing opposed to being better at others.

Yet we have straight upgrades where any gun works excellent on for instance infantry. I mean, you could easily create an alternative to a hull mounted gun by adding wing mounted alternating firing guns of a higher caliber and lower rate of fire. The latter would be better against large objects, but horrible at targeting small, maneuvring units because of its wider spread and worse rate of fire (thus lower damage over time in one straight firing line).

Instead, you get large splash damage rockets on top of a gun. >.>

[boogy]

That's odd because I'm sure that KevMo said that he wanted things that way? The idea was that Libs would kill tanks and ESF's would kill Libs. Friendly ESF's would kill enemy ESF's that were in turn killing friendly libs.

What he described sounded awesome because it gave ESF's and Libs clearly defined roles. It certainly sounds a lot more interesting than the dull and predictable air spam that we have now. This game is every bit as bad now as when we had the massive tank spam in beta.

well maybe it just isn't working. I think ESF are easily combated by a couple of dual bursters. Libs are the ones that need more than just air to combat. I really hate how infantry are ants to air. I would prefer infantry just being straight up hard to hit with any type of air.

[Figment]

See, I can understand that a single handed burster is a deterent. Fine, he's not certed into the full specialisation. But a Dual Burster should hands down beat an aircav shouldn't it? I mean, if even after you gave up ALL OTHER FIREPOWER against ANY AND ALL OTHER UNITS, AND THEN you STILL can't win and are STILL just a deterent on your own against other solo players (against three crew or more units I can understand to a point), then what's the bloody point of specializing in AA? :/



On the Lightning, something struck me (pun intended), they were talking about making more powerful MBT weapons for dedicated gunners, right? I wonder if they want a more powerful AA gun among those options. In which case the Skyguard should be relatively weak.

Same could be true for buggy gunner weapons.

[SKYeXile]

this thread

laughing derisively - YouTube

I do like how you all think Air is Op though and ignore what's obviously OP...lets see who can guess what it really is.

[RobUK]

On the Lightning, something struck me (pun intended), they were talking about making more powerful MBT weapons for dedicated gunners, right? I wonder if they want a more powerful AA gun among those options. In which case the Skyguard should be relatively weak.

Same could be true for buggy gunner weapons.

Apparently in the beta there was also a more powerful AA MAX in the cert tree. I think I read that it had a bigger clip and faster firing rate.

It's not there now though.

I always thought that there would be basic cheap AA and that a more powerful AA weapon could be unlocked by dedicated players that could really specialise in it. That would ensure that it was limited to those that devoted their "career" to it.

I envisaged that "more powerful" anything in the game would follow the same concept.

I hate this one man army stuff that is already prevalent before the game is even 2 weeks old :(

[RobUK]

this thread

laughing derisively - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzUXgQIW4oc)

I do like how you all think Air is Op though and ignore what's obviously OP...lets see who can guess what it really is.

Go on then give us your opin...I mean the facts then :D

[SKYeXile]

Go on then give us your opin...I mean the facts then :D

http://trf-guild.com/forums/gallery/1_26_11_12_9_18_39.png (http://trf-guild.com/forums/gallery/1_26_11_12_9_18_39.png)

Do the math.

[RobUK]

I want a gun that gives 127% accuracy.

How cert I this plox?

[cooonips]

in time it should get better by its self. part of the problem is the cost of items so its going to take a while for enough people to unlock anti air

[RobUK]

in time it should get better by its self. part of the problem is the cost of items so its going to take a while for enough people to unlock anti air

Why would anybody actually bother?

The only time people will waste certs on being a deterrent is when they have spent certs on all the other things they need and want first.

Once people have spare certs kicking around, then they might. But that's a looong way off in the future and I'm willing to bet that the AI MAX will be far more desirable to that kind of person than AA.

The same goes for vehicular based AA. It'll be something to blow excess certs on when there's nothing else left to waste them on.

[Helwyr]

Wow has this thread shot off. Actually less Aircav players trying to defend the undefendable than I expected on PSU.

Another option if Air is going to be completely overpowered is for SOE just to give us maps where Aircraft are not a factor, full tree coverage on Hossin or Foresal, or very poor visibility on Searus (including IR/Thermal) due to smoke and ash. Then players can just vote on this issue with their feet.

:lol: @ a certain leader board player never missing an opportunity to expose his e-peen in a thread. Not sure what point he's trying to make in regard to the topic at hand though, as none of it seems relevant.

[RobUK]

:lol: @ a certain leader board player never missing an opportunity to expose his e-peen in a thread. Not sure what point he's trying to make in regard to the topic at hand though, as none of it seems relevant.


Haha :lol:

I resisted the tempation to mention the perpetual and predicatble virtual willy waving myself.

I always think of it this way.

A tiny fraction of the world's population plays PC games. A miniscule number of those people has even heard of this game. A minute proportion of those people even play Planetside 2. An insignificant number of that group would have even have heard of any particular characters name.

So, in a nutshell, enjoy your "fame" :D

[SKYeXile]

Wow has this thread shot off. Actually less Aircav players trying to defend the undefendable than I expected on PSU.

Another option if Air is going to be completely overpowered is for SOE just to give us maps where Aircraft are not a factor, full tree coverage on Hossin or Foresal, or very poor visibility on Searus (including IR/Thermal) due to smoke and ash. Then players can just vote on this issue with their feet.

:lol: @ a certain leader board player never missing an opportunity to expose his e-peen in a thread. Not sure what point he's trying to make in regard to the topic at hand though, as none of it seems relevant.

Pointing out again how stupid the Planetside population is focusing all your attention on Aircav been OP again, when its clear there are FAR better vehicles for killing.

[RykerStruvian]

Base AA turrets need to be buffed a little. Those are specifically for defense purposes and should be able to have longer ranges and more accurate, at least base turrets for major facilities like amp stations/techplants. And even then just a little buff, nothing crazy.

Air superiority outside of a base defense is entirely in the hands of the players of any given engagement rather than the tools they are able to use. If the enemy has lots of air cover, chances are you have no birds in the sky or AA on the ground to help them out. This happened to be the case last night on Indar when NC was pushing TR north into Mao. We had tanks++ all over the place but all of our liberators and aircraft had been destroyed. TR had some tanks but were mainly using air, which we weren't able to push back since the only lightning we had happened to be the generic type.

At most, all I saw was one or two AA MAXs on our side but that was it. Its really just about balance and a bit of rock/paper/scissors. Grant it, air does have the ability to be rock/scissors but will always also be paper regardless what it decides to do.

[Bags]

Pointing out again how stupid the Planetside population is focusing all your attention on Aircav been OP again, when its clear there are FAR better vehicles for killing.

You must be the only person who has figured it out then, I've died to a lightning using HE maybe once.

Question though, what makes a lightning with HE better than an MBT with HE? And personal success aside, what makes a lighting better than an ESF?

[Figment]

Pointing out again how stupid the Planetside population is focusing all your attention on Aircav been OP again, when its clear there are FAR better vehicles for killing.

As I said earlier in the thread: Lightning HE is one shot kill with little chance of missing.

Exile tries to point out that an 88% accuracy gun gives an approximate 60% kills to his shots fired.


And he's correct, HE solo tanks are OP (again, as I said before, would have imagined this to have less firepower for the endurance it gets - same can be said for the MBT). Hell, the AP and HEAT shells single shot kill infantry...

[SKYeXile]

You must be the only person who has figured it out then, I've died to a lightning using HE maybe once.

Question though, what makes a lightning with HE better than an MBT with HE? And personal success aside, what makes a lighting better than an ESF?
lightning is faster, making it better than an MBT for hit and run attacks, it has a lower profile making it better for hull downing, it has a high damage shot. capable of gibbing packs of enemys out of LOS, its DPS is FAR greater than that of an ESF and its downtime is less, as you will generally have to travel some distance to repair an ESF and rearm in vulnerable positions, i repair the lighting while chumps with assault rifles are looking at me with their beady eyes.

My next Video will be a full feature on the lightning, it will induce nerd rage.

[Bags]

lightning is faster, making it better than an MBT for hit and run attacks, it has a lower profile making it better for hull downing, it has a high damage shot. capable of gibbing packs of enemys out of LOS, its DPS is FAR greater than that of an ESF and its downtime is less, as you will generally have to travel some distance to repair an ESF and rearm in vulnerable positions, i repair the lighting while chumps with assault rifles are looking at me with their beady eyes.

My next Video will be a full feature on the lightning.

Given the reload time I doubt the DPS of a lightning is higher than an ESF, you mean burst damage maybe?

Anyway maybe that will be a problem when everyone runs around with HE lightnings but as is the big problem realistically atm is ESF.

[Figment]

Given the reload time I doubt the DPS of a lightning is higher than an ESF, you mean burst damage maybe?

Watch the tank vid I posted earlier.


ESF is a thing of its own. Next to spawnshackcamping, solo MBT zergs, one shot kill everything, you know the drill... :p I'm just sad it's all problems that are either not recognized, not dealt with or ignored as intended.

[Bags]

Watch the tank vid I posted earlier.


ESF is a thing of its own. Next to spawnshackcamping, solo MBT zergs, one shot kill everything, you know the drill... :p I'm just sad it's all problems that are either not recognized, not dealt with or ignored as intended.

Yes it kills infantry in one shot but I don't think that means it has the highest DPS.

Highest damage in one second, maybe.

[Figment]

DPS is irrelevant if you can have sustained damage over time with guaranteed kills. And any decent gunner should one shot half the battlefield of infantry with this piece of cake gun.

[Bags]

DPS is irrelevant if you can have sustained damage over time with guaranteed kills. And any decent gunner should one shot half the battlefield of infantry with this piece of cake gun.

Lightnings seem fine to me. I've yet to have issue with them.

[Figment]

Lightnings seem fine to me. I've yet to have issue with them.

In part because everything can hunt them and their drivers are crappy. Most can't even hull down.

[Mastachief]

Sigh glad i'm not giving a penny more to them. A dedicated AA platform should always hands down destroy a all purpose air vehicle. AA is toothless and only the bored ever pull it.

Too many noobs whining because they can't fly.

[SKYeXile]

DPS is irrelevant if you can have sustained damage over time with guaranteed kills. And any decent gunner should one shot half the battlefield of infantry with this piece of cake gun.

Yea I think you can get 3 lightning shots off to 1 esf salvo? That's heaps more damage. I think the only advantage is in an esf you have elevation to kill dug in infantry. But if you can get elevation on them in a lightning...ohm nom nom nom nom.

[SKYeXile]

In part because everything can hunt them and their drivers are crappy. Most can't even hull down.

I take it you play WOT? tell me, do you find yourself always putting your tank on an angle, staying in arty safe positions and looking for bushes to conceal your tank in?(surprisingly this last one really works)

[Bags]

Yea I think you can get 3 lightning shots off to 1 esf salvo? That's heaps more damage.

Really? Huh, didn't feel that way. Might have to time it to see what the times are.

[SKYeXile]

Really? Huh, didn't feel that way. Might have to time it to see what the times are.

im counting the ESF reload time here.

[Helwyr]

Pointing out again how stupid the Planetside population is focusing all your attention on Aircav been OP again, when its clear there are FAR better vehicles for killing.

I'm not disputing that players like you can rack up more kills by farming Infantry clustered around a spawn point with your lightning than with an ESF. Perhaps that's an issue as well, but personally as an almost exclusively Infantry player my only problem with ground vehicles is access to Infantry detecting radar and the IR/Thermal imaging (which is even better on aircraft).

Ultimately Infantry can and should be able to deal with ground vehicles, especially in rough terrain. But when it comes to Air vehicles Infantry have no answer, and outside of a windowless building no where to hide from aircraft.

Even in PS1 which had much more effective AA than PS2 it was always an overabundance of hover spamming Aircraft that ruined outdoor Infantry battles, not tanks. Now in PS2 it's happening again, except this time there's no old Skyguard or Starfire MAXes to even try to counter air dominance. Instead we're essentially told to play Air or be second/third class players. Well some of us have no interest in paying an Aircraft Sim.

The fact of the matter is everything is being stacked up in Air's favor especially ESFs. It isn't balanced and if left unchecked is going to ruin this game.

[RykerStruvian]

There are Skyguards though in the game, to a point. It's not, as you said, the old school Skyguard but it is definitely there. And you're right about infantry not being able to respond to air other than hiding in a building.

At the same time, isn't that what it is about? Heavy Assault classes do get a AA weapon. MAXs are also considered to be infantry as well and they get AA weapons. Thats already two 'infantry' classes with AA weapons. Is more really necessary?

Another thing to consider is that although ESF might have rocket pods, to actually line up for an attack does render ESF vulnerable. Also, ESF are essentially always at risk considering, unlike infantry, ESF have 360 degrees to worry about when it comes to being attacked with essentially no cover. At least infantry can hide in buildings. ESF only have counter measures and speed to rely on and thats about it.

ESF in general is about extremes. They can do a lot of damage, they can be extremely overpowering, but they are also extremely vulnerable and susceptible to the environment (not enough supporting units, too many friendly air units, not enough AA support, not enough air support, etc). Its not like infantry combat where its relatively consistent.

[Bags]

im counting the ESF reload time here.

I figured as much. Still.

[Helwyr]

At the same time, isn't that what it is about? Heavy Assault classes do get a AA weapon. MAXs are also considered to be infantry as well and they get AA weapons. Thats already two 'infantry' classes with AA weapons. Is more really necessary?

Yes more is necessary, those AA weapons need to be effective at killing aircraft. A PS2 Burster MAX is no where near as effective at downing aircraft as a PS1 Burster or Starfire MAX was able to. Keep in mind even with those better AA MAXes Aircav was still the dominant playstyle of PS1 with most of the powergamers and self proclaimed "elite" Outfits gravitating towards Air.

A single dedicated AA unit should be more effective at destroying an ESF, than a single ESF is at destroying a tank. ... That would be balanced.

As to Infantry, they are going to be weaker than vehicles, but they should benefit from having a low battlefield profile. With Infantry detecting radar (unlike vehicles there's no "stealth" cert option to avoid this, yup more balance madness) and IR/Thermal imaging and little aerial cover Infantry do not have the Low battlefield profile they ought to benefit from. The lower Render distance is all they have going for them.

Between Empires this game isn't badly balanced, but between roles its balance is pretty abysmal. ESFs vs AA is the worst of this unbalance.

[Sifer2]

Skyguard is underpowered. Other AA is not IMO. Except the Tank's AA turrets I guess but those should suck IMO. I never liked the idea of MBT's with AA capabilities because you end with a tank that can kill everything like a mini BFR.

But yeah a dual Burster MAX can solo an ESF just fine. If you don't think so you have never been a pilot, and gotten hit by one. What happens is this: You must lower altitude so that your ground targets will even render on your screen. And most go even lower still to be accurate with Rocket Pods. This puts you right in the Dual Burster MAX killzone. One of them is enough to severely damage you and force you off to go repair. Two will almost gib you before you can do anything. Compare that to being in say a Tank where it's pretty unusual for something to just kill you out of no where in seconds from full health.

Now Liberators are another story. They do require significant teamwork in terms of AA units to bring down. This is probably because SOE wants a counter to tank spam. Liberators themselves though are quite vulnerable to ESF's. So in a way it does balance itself out in the end but only if your Empire/Outfit is not allergic to flying. The way it is right now is if your not willing to bring some air support then a couple of Liberators will stop your advance cold.

[johnflenaly]

When were bored of the ground game me and a couple of buddies run a dedicated AA team. 4 heavy's with AA missiles. We all lock the target. We have a designated man who fires first to see if he pops flares, then depending on if he doesn't or was dumb enough to hang around he gets another three up the rear. Is this balanced? I don't know but its hella fun.

[Mavvvy]

Just curious, but how many aircraft does it then take to kill a ground unit according to your teamwork argument?


It takes one in undefended airspace, particularly if you attack un-escorted armour from the rear. But you did know that anyway to be fair.

Strangely enough though, it also takes one ap vanguard to take to kill a HE prowler that doesn't have ap/heavy support . Comparatively one man can also kill an entire squad if its ass is not guarded.

Who is to blame in those situations?

I used to think air was hugely overpowered against ground forces until my outfit found a way to deal with it. The two polar views I suppose reflects that fact the people are still formulating how aa defense and air is supposed to be used.

[Tharrak]

I spent the 1,000 cert equivalent in cash for the NC's HAWK, the Anti-Air rocket launcher for the HA. This is, and probably always will be, my biggest regret in Planetside 2 micro-transactions.

Here, buy this rocket launcher so that you can be a "deterrent". *sigh* For the record, it takes 3 solid locks and hits to take a mosquito down from full health. I'm not sure about libs. If this is a deterrent for you, time to give up flying.

Frankly, being a meat shield, standing out in the open waiting for locks and being bombed, shot at and humiliated while I simply try to be an annoyance for someone in the air, all while my team is indoors playing the game and earning XP, does not sound like my idea of fun.

I can relate supremely my dear NC foe. After spending Smedbucks on the anti-air rocket for the TR HA, I've grounded as many Reavers with my Cycler as with that launcher. Not an impressive number at all. They tend to get very close at times if there is no airborne counter, was amazed that the Cycler had a rather nice effect on them! Hehe.

But yeah, lesson learned. Standing in the open with your launcher is like painting a target on yourself, a big fat one. You need to stand inside a crowd to get away with that, but chances are the airborne action goes away if that's the case. If I had a Smedbuck for every time those Reavers went away and a tank appeared instead, when getting that rocket launcher, the deal would soon have been pretty even, and I could invest in something more... fun! ;-)

---

[Canaris]

Ah, I see!

So i can randomly take digs at people for no apparent reason, and its their problem if they react? I see how this works.

Here we go. Let me know if I do this wrong

You're bad at the game, you're probably overweight and have a stupid haircut. Your faction is full of retards and noobs, which is why all your weapons are so OP.

You also smell strange.

your getting it but you need to finesse your way through insulting people, like so, I liked the "you smell strange" that's the style.

You know what I find hilarious about the VS is that you all dress in the manner of male prostitutes, even the female ones and maybe if you put as much time into combat practice as you do on preening in a mirror or bitching you might find your hair dryer guns aren't as bad as you make out.


Other piece of advise I can offer is never let the enemy see you angry then we know we got you by the balls ;)

But we are terribly off topic now, (time for the ol' reverso)
steering us back around to the issue at hand

The game needs to mature a little before I'd entertain seeing the nerf/buff bat being swung.

[Figment]

I take it you play WOT? tell me, do you find yourself always putting your tank on an angle, staying in arty safe positions and looking for bushes to conceal your tank in?(surprisingly this last one really works)

Used to play WoT, got bored of it (too easy) so haven't played since 0.7.4 (started at 0.3.0 or something). The angling only with heavy tanks really, though since I've mostly played the US line, hull-down is an absolute must to master. Though a T30 or T34 flank move could be pretty fun in Himmelsdorf. Didn't you get annoyed that when you had an US heavy, some russian or german tank would go to the hill in Lake or Himmel and leave you to fight on flat terrain? >.<'

I'm more of a flanker and ambusher with TDs, mediums and lights. Especially good with TDs and scouting (PS infiltrator patience skill :p), though I'm probably one of the only people who'll take a 704 or JT as pointman to the frontline when the mediums refuse to move. :D Aaaah the derp BL-10 and wall hug flank prevention + tracking as long as your bottom plate is protected. :) But PzIIIs and M24s are fun as hell to scout and ambush with, used to PzIV it up for a long time too even though I got up to the VK4502H. And man... french auto-loader tanks hull down + ambush flank move. :love:

I love turning an enemy tank around by getting behind it and even if it costs me my tank see four of their tanks show their rear or flank to my allies for easy shots. Hell, even did that with a KV-3 pre-tier shift. Slow as hell but bouncy, if you angle your turret after each shot, a KV-5 couldn't even pen it.

I only got hit by arti once every 10 matches or so, usualy died protecting flanks alone. Damn lemmings in random matches (never was in a clan, did no tank companies or clan wars, still got a 53-55% win ratio, up to 65% with TDs and up to 75% with scouts)... Played a lot of arti (up to the Obj. 268 and Hummel). Gave you enough idea what arti angles were typical to avoid 90% of their shots.




Thing is though, if I wanted I could do that infantry pwning with the Lightning with ease in PS2. But it bores me to fire at pixels, it doesn't give me an adrenaline rush. What I've always loved about driving in PlanetSide (1) was the fact you'd dogfight lots. Maneuvring was key to winning. PS2 is just boring as hell as it's more remniscent of WoT tanking than PS1 tanking, save the sensitive hitboxes and bouncing mechanics. It just bores me to sit back and play mortar artillery and I know my Vanguard would be thrice as effective if I wasn't gunning it myself.

In PS2 I find myself just charging in for the lols a lot leading a group of other tanks. Though when we engage other tanks, of course you're going to show your front. Angling has no use since the sides are weaker, but yeah bushes make acquiring rocket locks harder I think, the hitbox to lock on to is pretty low on the Lightning so if you only have the turret in sight, they can't hit it and if you back up, they'll hit the hill. I tend to use tanks as a personal transport to get me to an outpost CC and break through a small defense as they're so cheap to get. Which btw is laughably easy if you have back up from other tanks and infantry. Then I ditch it and continue on foot inside as that's more fun (more risky, hate playing it save). I hate lack of challenge so when given the opportunity to spawn camp outposts I'd rather jump out in LA than do it the easy way by sitting back 200-300m at height and spamming the door.

Speaking of rockets being fired at tanks... Increase the speed of the damn dumb fire mode standard rockets already! >.<

[Qwan]

I think dumb rocket fire is a little slow, I use the nemisis for all my anti air and anti vehicle, there straighter and faster than the dumb fire. Though I do loose damage on ground targets, I can hit targets further away, and moving as well. But to kill air, my outfite moves in convoys and a number of my outfit buddys have sky guards, they rip threw enemy air, we have a couple of pilots that have decked out there birds and are aces in the air as well. And all if not a majority of our heavy assault carry the nemisis. So when we move in a convoy we dont have alot of air problems, most reavers and mosi's catch hell.

[KaskaMatej]

Welp, I know on what game I won't spend money.

The "air is only counter to air" situation happened on BF2 and BF3. In both games, jets are the end-all-be-all vehicle that kill everything and can only be reliable killed by another jet.

I'll just "vote" with my money.

[Bocheezu]

I just wonder what the endgame balance is going to be like. The problem we have now is that there are people that want to specialize in ESF and soup up their ESFs first, and I don't know of anybody that's like "AA is the first thing I'm going to do!" So we have a lot of rocketwhores and a lot people that would like to have a 2nd burster arm but can't afford it because they built up something else.

Also, another consideration here is the cert gain per hour for different playstyles. I don't know if it's all bluster and bravado on the main forums, but the ESF killwhores talk about 100 certs an hour or some such. Which from simple math means about a kill every 15 seconds. They tell everyone else that if you're getting 30 certs an hour, you are an absolutely pathetic player and should quit immediately.

I haven't really paid too much attention to my cert gain, but I looked at my session stats yesterday just to see. I am usually a solo player and constantly redeploy jump to catch different base caps (especially big base caps; 4 certs!), but yesterday I joined some zerg outfit on Mattherson. This must have been the big outfit night on Indar (Enclave was there and I'm sure there were big NC outfits) because there was very little infantry fighting and it was all vehicles, everywhere. A lot of driving around, getting a cap, driving to some other base, getting a cap, getting wiped out by libs and reploying to the warpgate and waiting around, etc. Grand total of certs for 2 hrs and 43 mins of play: 42. I will never play with an outfit again.

I will go back to my standard gameplay today, which is basically look at all the continents and fight in either a bio lab attack (where you can camp in a teleport room and shoot the stupid people that run in front of the shields) or a tech plant defense. I used to drive AMS, but really, I only get good numbers if I'm way ahead of the curve and plant it at a tech plant that I think will get attacked 30 mins in the future. AMS is pretty prevalent now so my individual AMS isn't that important for a base assault and good spawn numbers only last for 5-10 minutes before the zerg moves on or the AMS gets blown up.

The point is, I view myself as someone that is maybe representative of a typical person that would get AA, and I'm getting sooo many fewer cert points than the ESF pilots. It will be another week until I get the 2nd burster arm.

[Snipefrag]

Oh and by the way, I didn't lose my composure. If you need to compose yourself to post on some forums I suggest you go outside, or get a job.

Naa, I'm composed. Definition:

calm; tranquil; serene

It brings serenity to my being watching you get all riled up about some throw away comment. Go outside? Get a job? Now who's being childish.

[Bravix]

Scythe 65 Killstreak Uncut (Planetside 2 Gameplay/Commentary) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTxidhiUubI&feature=share&list=UUlMXf2oP5UiW_V4dwHxY0Mg)

My point? Just wondering how many you need to have in a squad to kill 65 aircav lonewolving it.


Notice how easy it is for the Scythe user to rack up kills on targets that could never have seen him coming and how fast he can disengage? Notice how easy the anti-vehicle rocket pods are to use on infantry?

Notice how there's hardly any effective AA around if the pilot treats it as a deterent, while in that same timespan that he is being detered (hit and shot at) that pilot could have killed many infantry and other vehicles? >.>


There's no reason to treat pilots as if they're playing a different game. If we all die fast, certainly to them - even when they are alone (!) - they should die fast to their counters as well.

Now, I don't like that people have mass access to AA. It should be a specialty so they can be more effective and a valuable team member. Cause I also really wonder what else your squad accomplished in that "aircav decimation time". Probably very little since you weren't capable of downing any Sunderer AMSes in that same time span, wern't able to take outposts and wern't able to do anything but defend an outcrop... Which is nice and supportive defensively, but is a big drain on your empire's player number just to deal with a few pilots.

Only watched 3 minutes. That's all I needed to watch.

First off, there was no AA shooting at him. That isn't his fault. The infantry also never fired a norma AV rocket at him. FFS, he was RIGHT OVER THEM HOVERING IN A STRAIGHT PATH. I would have taken him out of the air on one of his first few runs on that base.

People need to learn to AA.

[Dragonskin]

Also, another consideration here is the cert gain per hour for different playstyles. I don't know if it's all bluster and bravado on the main forums, but the ESF killwhores talk about 100 certs an hour or some such. Which from simple math means about a kill every 15 seconds. They tell everyone else that if you're getting 30 certs an hour, you are an absolutely pathetic player and should quit immediately.

100 certs an hour actually isn't that hard to do. People go on killing streaks with lightnings and MBTs all the time. While I tend to stay out of the ground vehicles I do get very good cert gain per hour playing medic or engineer. Medic being my most played class so far. 87-100 exp per revive and upwards of 22 exp for each healing tick on squad mates... not unreasonable. Engie just has to toss a ammo pack on the ground and run around repping MAXs and any terminals or turrets around a base.. vehicles too. Then you can toss in the kills that Engie and Medic get.. yea, in a heavy battle I can walk away with 50 certs in about 30 minutes. I don't normally see many hour long battles though.

[Bravix]

Yes more is necessary, those AA weapons need to be effective at killing aircraft. A PS2 Burster MAX is no where near as effective at downing aircraft as a PS1 Burster or Starfire MAX was able to. Keep in mind even with those better AA MAXes Aircav was still the dominant playstyle of PS1 with most of the powergamers and self proclaimed "elite" Outfits gravitating towards Air.

A single dedicated AA unit should be more effective at destroying an ESF, than a single ESF is at destroying a tank. ... That would be balanced.

As to Infantry, they are going to be weaker than vehicles, but they should benefit from having a low battlefield profile. With Infantry detecting radar (unlike vehicles there's no "stealth" cert option to avoid this, yup more balance madness) and IR/Thermal imaging and little aerial cover Infantry do not have the Low battlefield profile they ought to benefit from. The lower Render distance is all they have going for them.

Between Empires this game isn't badly balanced, but between roles its balance is pretty abysmal. ESFs vs AA is the worst of this unbalance.

What are you smoking? If you died to a Starfire (unless you're referring to the OP version of old) you deserved it.

"Oh noes, I'm being shot at by a starfire! I guess I'll just outrun the projectiles in my Galaxy. Bye bye silly MAX!"

[Dragonskin]

Only watched 3 minutes. That's all I needed to watch.

First off, there was no AA shooting at him. That isn't his fault. The infantry also never fired a norma AV rocket at him. FFS, he was RIGHT OVER THEM HOVERING IN A STRAIGHT PATH. I would have taken him out of the air on one of his first few runs on that base.

People need to learn to AA.

No no, you messed up his perfect scenario showing how OP ESF are... I am sure he will have some response that will attempt to descredit everything you just said.. even though it is true.

Personally as a ESF pilot I would love to see these battles that Levelcap sees.. Where can I find idiots to kill? I guess that is what I get for going up against The Enclave on Mattherson... Tons of AA going around making flying impossible sometimes and while I dislike The Enclave.. they are not idiots.

[CasualCat]

I think part of the problem with air being being the hard counter for air, is that air dosent want to fight air. it wants to farm infantry...maybe up the xp gain for air to air kills and lower the xp for infantry kills?


The exception being fighting liberators which seem to be free juicy kills for ESFs.

I think they should just make ESFs like every other vehicle in game and make them choose one damn weapon. No one else gets two. You choose rocket pods and now you have no gun to deal with air. While they're at it make pods harder to use against air.

[Sledgecrushr]

The exception being fighting liberators which seem to be free juicy kills for ESFs.

I think they should just make ESFs like every other vehicle in game and make them choose one damn weapon. No one else gets two. You choose rocket pods and now you have no gun to deal with air. While they're at it make pods harder to use against air.

Every class, every vehicle has more than one weapon except for the quad.

[CasualCat]

Every class, every vehicle has more than one weapon except for the quad.

And all those you're considering are multi-crew vehicles. There is no single person vehicle with multiple guns or even a crewed vehicle in which the person controls more than one weapon per seat. You also forgot the lightning.

So why are ESFs special?

[maradine]

Without getting into my standard broken record on the topic (make AAA deadly; give pilots good detection and avoidance tools), I'd frankly just like to see the Skyguard brought into line with dual bursters as an AA platform.

You had to cert into it, it's worthless against armor, marginal against infantry, inferior at AA, costs more to deploy from a pool you actually use, can't duck into buildings for cover, and can't be instantly refit by walking by a weapons terminal. Counterbalancing that is a 70kph top speed and a delightful array of hood ornaments - 10/10 for style, but like 2/10 as a realistic option given the current circumstances.

As its stands now, I don't think the removal of the SG turret from the configuration screen would impact the game in any meaningful way. When you hit that point, something's wrong.

I'd also like to see the Sky Lance go from pretty indoor set piece to actual system, but that's another thread.

[Bags]

I just wonder what the endgame balance is going to be like. The problem we have now is that there are people that want to specialize in ESF and soup up their ESFs first, and I don't know of anybody that's like "AA is the first thing I'm going to do!" So we have a lot of rocketwhores and a lot people that would like to have a 2nd burster arm but can't afford it because they built up something else.


No one certs AA because it isn't worth the certs or money.

[Zerikin Loukbel]

The ineffectiveness of AA is a compounding problem. The less effective it is the less certs you can get, the less certs an activity earns the less likely someone is to do it. Hence weak ground based AA makes for mostly non-existent AA outside of outfits. Even then one ESF can pop over a hill and destroy a tank with rockets before anyone can do anything about it. Oh yeah and they can traverse the entire map in seconds too.

[AuntLou]

I asked Higby on the stream last night how anyone can justify purchasing any AA in it's current state(in other words, not sure exactly how I worded it). His reply just reiterated everything he already has said. He is basically saying he doesn't want ground to air to obliterate everything in the sky.

We totally get that! We don't want that either! But at it's current state it's not even worth using. You can't tell me that the majority are not regretting any of their ground to air purchases.

[Dragonskin]

weak ground based AA makes for mostly non-existent AA outside of outfits. .

Maybe that is it... but I would like to know what server you guys play on that doesn't have large outfits partolling around. On Matherson we have a lot of outfits and they all have people that have AA. They can all create no fly zones because they have an abudance of AA and coordination so that things are killed when they fly over.

I haven't really played the game outside of an outfit. I thought that was really what this game was based around.

Agian.. on Matherson there are nights where flying is nothing but an endless death trap because of all the AA.

[Dragonskin]

We totally get that! We don't want that either! But at it's current state it's not even worth using. You can't tell me that the majority are not regretting any of their ground to air purchases.

I don't regret it, but like I said in the above post I play in an outfit and when we all pop out our AA things die.

[Figment]

Only watched 3 minutes. That's all I needed to watch.

First off, there was no AA shooting at him. That isn't his fault. The infantry also never fired a norma AV rocket at him. FFS, he was RIGHT OVER THEM HOVERING IN A STRAIGHT PATH. I would have taken him out of the air on one of his first few runs on that base.

People need to learn to AA.

"AA isn't supposed to shoot them down" according to this thread, so why would they even try? You don't seem to comprehend that there's a severe lack of AA because people can't use it anyway.

Normal AV rockets don't hit aircav on a regular basis. Dumb fire rockets are too easy to dodge. Even if you lead the shot perfectly, they'll make a move every 2 seconds that places them out of your original path. We don't have Lancer's or Phoenixes in PS2. I'd love to see you make good on your claim and show us a vid where you kill these Scythes with dumb fire rockets all the time.

Ever tried using a Shrike and its massive drop off when firing upwards?

Have you seen how piss easy it is to line up a couple rockets on people that have no time to switch to AA, aren't even aware of an airborne threat or don't have any AA means in the vicinity and that by the time they do he's already gone roaming for free kills elsewhere?

If you were a competitive player, you'd expect the opponent to have time to retaliate in some fashion.

[AuntLou]

I don't regret it, but like I said in the above post I play in an outfit and when we all pop out our AA things die.

Yeah we are a smaller outfit and have tried mass AA at times but the most we can afford at times is a few dual bursters and a heavy AA w/ an engi for ammo. We haven't had too much success, a few assists though.

[Dragonskin]

We haven't had too much success, a few assists though.

Are you just looking for the kill credit? If you got an assist that means it died. That means you did your job and the air was destroyed. That is a good thing. If you guys are just looking at kill credits then I'm sorry.. I count all assists as kill credits personally. If the target died either by me or a friendly getting the kill then that is all that matters.

[Fafnir]

Are you just looking for the kill credit? If you got an assist that means it died. That means you did your job and the air was destroyed. That is a good thing. If you guys are just looking at kill credits then I'm sorry.. I count all assists as kill credits personally. If the target died either by me or a friendly getting the kill then that is all that matters.

It's not a good thing when AA get half the XP aircrafts are racking left and right.

[AuntLou]

Are you just looking for the kill credit? If you got an assist that means it died. That means you did your job and the air was destroyed. That is a good thing. If you guys are just looking at kill credits then I'm sorry.. I count all assists as kill credits personally. If the target died either by me or a friendly getting the kill then that is all that matters.

Well allot of it does get away, depends on the distance. But yeah it's tough to get outfitmates to use their AA just for assists. Hard to get anyone to be ok w/ a few assists and maybe a kill every 15 minutes when they could be doing allot better doing pretty much anything else.

I mean the obvious choice for them is to get into air themselves and be more successful. But then what is the purpose of ground to air? Why is it even there?

[Dragonskin]

Well allot of it does get away, depends on the distance. But yeah it's tough to get outfitmates to use their AA just for assists. Hard to get anyone to be ok w/ a few assists and maybe a kill every 15 minutes when they could be doing allot better doing pretty much anything else.

I mean the obvious choice for them is to get into air themselves and be more successful. But then what is the purpose of ground to air? Why is it even there?

Well the only 2 options that would be that restrictive are Skyguards and Burster MAXs.. but my outfit has a lot of people with AA rockets for their heavies... the nice thing about that is that heavies still have their main gun to kill things and they can dumbfire the AA rocket at vehicles/infantry.

We also have people with Burster MAXes, but we have less of those.. never heard anyone complain about pulling them out when asked. Most are happy to do it because they did spend the cash to be able to use it they went full burster. Even if they don't have a full burster they will still pull a stock MAX that comes with the 1 left burster arm... not a huge issue for people to do because the in game resources come fairly fast. It's rare to ever have a moment in the game so far where the outfit is being hurt by lack of resources.

We don't have many people with Skyguards though. Then of course we have people with scythes like myself that have A2A missiles and A2G to fill whatever the outfit needs at the time.

It's not a good thing when AA get half the XP aircrafts are racking left and right.

You can switch classes and respawn things all the time. The game isn't so restrictive that people should be AA only. AA is something we carry as an outfit if the situation calls for it. We are not the only big outfit on our server so we don't always need our AA. So when we need AA people pull it.. when we don't people play whatever they enjoy most.

[Figment]

I hope you realise that AA only fights one enemy and that it is a really unthankful job if everyone else gets to fire at everything AND KILL while your specialty makes you not just a handicap in game, it also is a handicap for your progression.

It's not good game play if you treat AA units as some sort of third rate citizen when comparing with aircav users.




The big problem with everything in this game is you can't make anything good (aside from those things that are popular, like flying and tanks because they're uber-powerful), because eventually everyone has everything.




There's no such thing as a specialization in PS2. Buying/acquiring a weapon upgrade/sidegrade? Who cares. That's not a specialization. It'd be special if few others could even pilot the thing.

[Dragonskin]

I hope you realise that AA only fights one enemy and that it is a really unthankful job if everyone else gets to fire at everything AND KILL while your specialty makes you not just a handicap in game, it also is a handicap for your progression.

It's not good game play if you treat AA units as some sort of third rate citizen when comparing with aircav users.

A handicap to your progression.. yea it will slow your cert gain per hour down if that is all that you care about then yea being helpful in killing air isn't for you. No one dedicates themselves to killing just air.. no one. That's like saying your going to play a heavy to kill only tanks.. who does that? You might pull out your AV rockets or your might pull out your AA rockets.. depends on what is needed more right? Even if you were a heavy MAX user there are times to go full anti-infantry, anti-air, anti-vehicle or a mix.. no one sets out to say... today I am going to just be a AI MAX.

For others that want to contribute to the big picture to allow their faction to dominate others.. that small role is enough to help turn the tide if you have enough people doing it.Which allows your faction to capture the territory or defend it which gives everyone in the territory certs. So that makes you an asset.. if you have AA and not a handicap.

Figment... didn't you just get on to someone about looking at the small picture with Infiltrator.. but in this debate it's perfectly fine for you to look at the small picture for AA? come on now.

[Illtempered]

In my opinion, ESFs and particularly rocket-pods are not OP. They are deadly, and they should be. They require support, due to their low ammo-capacity and low armor, and are expensive. However, my outfit has run some exercises where we find a position that's sure to bring a lot of air, and all load up on Bursters....and let me tell you the air starts dying quickly.
We and another outfit stopped a massive TR air-zerg from taking the Indar benefit the other day by holding up at Scarred Mesa Skydock with about 20 Bursters. It was the last base they needed to take to have all hexes. They had at least double the continental pop as we did. It was epic.

Fixing the top armor on vehicles was the first step in the right direction. Give ground-units another way to counter air, with trade-offs. The Skyguard needs to be buffed imo though. I can aim fairly well, but can't do shit with it.

[Zerikin Loukbel]

For me it kinda boils down to if an ESF with pods can blow up a tank in a few seconds flat why can't a skyguard, which can only target air effectively, not take out an ESF with even a full clip of flak hitting the target? Why don't the ESF to coordinate their rockets attacks to destroy a tank?

[Figment]

A handicap to your progression.. yea it will slow your cert gain per hour down if that is all that you care about then yea being helpful in killing air isn't for you.

You don't understand the average player: if it isn't rewarding, they don't do it. If it is rewarding they'll whore the hell out of it. What you need for balance is something that is rewarding but not whorable. Otherwise people simply don't use it.

And given that it's pretty crappy, they won't see reason to if there are more effective ways to do it: namely fly and kill other stuff in the process. You don't understand that you have AA and Aircav competing directly here in the same niche and since AA is "not quite allowed to kill stuff", while air has a carte blanche on EVERYTHING - ALONE - AA is basically been given a void task.

If AA need to work together to kill air targets, then air needs to work together to kill ground targets.

Period.

Anything else is hypocrisy.

No one dedicates themselves to killing just air.. no one. That's like saying your going to play a heavy to kill only tanks.. who does that?

Then why even have tanks and MAXes that can only target air units effectively? Well?

THAT is dedication. A complete specialization: they can only damage aircav. ONLY DAMAGE AIRCAV. And then they're told they're not allowed to do it.


lolwut?

You might pull out your AV rockets or your might pull out your AA rockets.. depends on what is needed more right? Even if you were a heavy MAX user there are times to go full anti-infantry, anti-air, anti-vehicle or a mix.. no one sets out to say... today I am going to just be a AI MAX.

I'm not talking about HA balance. HA doesn't have that issue. In fact, with HA the AA launcher is a stand in for the AV dumb fire and is even better at dumbfiring it than the AV launcher.

For others that want to contribute to the big picture to allow their faction to dominate others.. that small role is enough to help turn the tide if you have enough people doing it.

Or they could fly and each have a bigger part in the battle...

Which allows your faction to capture the territory or defend it which gives everyone in the territory certs. So that makes you an asset.. if you have AA and not a handicap.

Figment... didn't you just get on to someone about looking at the small picture with Infiltrator.. but in this debate it's perfectly fine for you to look at the small picture for AA? come on now.

Not at all, I told someone else to leave Infiltrators in their specialty niche instead of making it OP.

What I did was like a pilot stating rocket pods are OP.

What I did was also like stating "an infil should be doing things that are part of its class, not ganking because that's not supposed to be part of the infiltrator specialization". Meaning that if I would be talking about AA specialization, then I would say an AA MAX is supposed to be good at firing at aircraft. But beyond that, nothing else really.

You're the one who's being the hypocrite here by applying a different standard to pilots than to AA, not me. I tell pilots to "give up their shotgun" and accept that - like an infil that has been spotted by anything dies to anything - they should accept dieing to their counter: anti-air.

Currently, you don't accept that. And apparently you don't realise you don't accept that your rock is killing your scissors.




Why should scissors fly alone, and rocks come in groups? Double standard bullshit. As long as you say work in groups of two or more to kill the only thing you're supposed to counter, then I'd say BY YOUR LINE OF REASONING, that a Sundy can only be taken out by more than one Scythe and as long as it's just one Scythe, the Sundy should be able to get away with ease, since it's only supposed to be a deterent, right? (Which given the Sundy speed and terrain to traverse compared to the Scythe means what, 120 Scythe strafing runs? Sounds legit, fun and fair to all, right?). It should then after all, only be a deterent to vehicles if they have the AV role.

I mean, if you have a dedicated niche role, you're not supposed to be able to do that, right? That's what you're saying!



Stop being a hypocrit. Stop applying a double standard. One Burster MAX with two arms should annihilate a solo aircav utterly. Just as fast as a solo aircav can take out solo vehicles. Meaning, before they can react.


That, or heavily nerf aircav rocket pods to the extend they need at least three strafing runs and can't do accurate spam from long distance.

Anything else is being unfair.

[HenchAnt]

If you got an assist that means it died. That means you did your job and the air was destroyed.

No, that means somebody else got it - probably an A2A fighter. And if that somebody else wouldn't have been there, the enemy aircraft would probably have escaped (and repaired and come back with impunity). So basically, somebody else was doing job your - and without that somebody else, you would have failed at that job.

[Figment]

No, that means somebody else got it - probably an A2A fighter. And if that somebody else wouldn't have been there, the enemy aircraft would probably have escaped (and repaired and come back with impunity). So basically, somebody else was doing job your - and without that somebody else, you would have failed at that job.

Indeed.


At the same time, the likeliness of aircav requiring someone else (an entire other person) to finish a job they started is on their general targets pretty slim since they can actually do it themselves.

[Dragonskin]

Stop being a hypocrit. Stop applying a double standard. One Burster MAX with two arms should annihilate a solo aircav utterly. Just as fast as a solo aircav can take out solo vehicles. Meaning, before they can react.

Anything else is being unfair.

Fine, how about you make burster MAXs render like vehicles to give air a chance to counter MAXs with that kind of fire power? Oh... they aren't because they are treated as infantry for rendering distance. MAXs are the hybrid unit in the game.. only class that is a vehicle meaning you can't change your weapon kits without despawning your MAX and can only be repaired by engineers... revivable by medics and can resupply from engie ammo drops and not resupply from towers or aoe resupply sundies like other vehicles.

I will agree that skygaurds need tuning and I can agree that AA turrets might need a little more health or armor.. actually I will just say all turrets need more health and armor because tanks can 2 shot ground turrets, but ground turrets can't 2 shot tanks.

AA rockets are fine.. both infantry carried and mounted to ESF.

[Bags]

In my opinion, ESFs and particularly rocket-pods are not OP. They are deadly, and they should be. They require support, due to their low ammo-capacity and low armor, and are expensive.

Okay, I keep seeing that ESF require support. :doh:

And expensive? Uh, last I checked they were what, 150 or 200 air? That's dirt cheap.

[Dragonskin]

Okay, I keep seeing that ESF require support. :doh:

And expensive? Uh, last I checked they were what, 150 or 200 air? That's dirt cheap.

Expensive is a funny word when resources come in so fast. The sundy would be the only unit I think is really expensive and unless you are just getting demolished you usually have enough resources to pull another one before your off cooldown.

Even if your faction is being steam rolled on a continent I have never seen an issue where resources were coming in so slow that it was really hampering people pulling vehicles.

ESF do die rather quickly.. maybe not to 1 single person, but they are easy to target.. you know being up in the sky and all.. they also take damage from everything in the game that hits them. Small arms fire can be reduced, but you are never small arms fire immune like a tank or sundy. Rockets and tank shells are the only things that can kill tanks.. well HA AV grenades, but I heard those are actually worthless over normal grenades. AV mines.. but then you have to actually run over it for that to work... good luck. C4.. but C4 can blow up anything. I've seen LA drop C4 on ESF then blow them up after.

[Bags]

Yes I've seen so many ESF shot down or nearly destroyed by small arms fire.

Oh wait, I've not seen one of the above happens.

[Sturmhardt]

Oh god... tonight the ESFs were all over EVERYTHING. And there was nothing really to kill them. They are just annoying, you can drive some of them away but you never kill them and they keep coming back :/

[Graywolves]

I'm sorry but making something that can only be countered by itself is poor game design. It narrows diversity down and is basically saying "well if you want to be successful you NEED to have this." It's annoying enough that the only effective AA is stuff (which only deters) you either grind for or purchase.

It's pretty silly to call out on people for requiring teamwork to take down air when the aircraft is mostly 1man vehicles.

Being able to deter air sounds good on paper. Then you realize it's a massive game where the air numbers are only growing when those resources aren't being depleted or cooldowns becoming active.

Does it work right now? I would actually say it does. I can still play the game and enjoy it. But if a new player comes in and he has nothing to do against aircraft then he's pretty much toast. It's not like 1 reaver fly by destroys AA turrets too. When there's too much air I either pull air too or go somewhere else. But players shouldn't be forced into doing something they don't enjoy.

[Chewy]

MAXs are the hybrid unit in the game.. only class that is a vehicle meaning you can't change your weapon kits without despawning your MAX .

I just wanted to say that MAXes can change weapons and loadouts without buying a new one. I do it all the time if defending a sundy.

[Figment]

Rendering is an entirely different issue. Rendering is problematic in dense area's right now. I had people disappear 50m away from me.

Tbh I don't mind them and other infantry being rendered. I do mind them being given markers through everything. What I expect in a competitive game is sufficient time to react to a new threat. The one shot killing thing is going to cost a lot of players.

Not an issue in smaller games as travel time and amount of threats are lower, you don't need as much situational awareness an certainly not against so many armoured units. But it is silly to balance a MMO on this scale like a deathmatch game.


Ps1 lost a substantial number of infantry first players die to aircav whining and camping. Camping issues are far greater in PS2 and the air issue is returning... I don't mind the lock on missile to take three hits, but flak should be extremely effective when it is on dedicated units.

What I dislike is the sheer spam and accessibility of all these weapons, because it leads to extreme disparities, lacks unique player builds and is just so damn predictable an cookie cutting, while making every farmtool available freely to all.


I would be fine with them extended the trial system to certs. But players shouldn't have such a wide variety available... Then you don't have to fix these stupendous balance problems.

[Illtempered]

Okay, I keep seeing that ESF require support. :doh:

And expensive? Uh, last I checked they were what, 150 or 200 air? That's dirt cheap.

I meant the rocket-pods are expensive.

[Chewy]

I meant the rocket-pods are expensive.

Only in certs. If you treat PS2 as an another paid game and put maybe $20 ($10 on a 3x SC deal) you can have a decked out aircraft of your choice to rain hell on what ever is in front of you. Maybe even more than one vehicle if you don't go for the extra cosmetics.

True someone with AA in mind can do the same, but with being a mere distraction to aircraft they'll never get the same worth out of the same SC (or certs). Without getting kills or at least points for doing the role someone dedicates to there's not going to be people to fill that role until certs become a surplus. If Im on AA duty I have to give up something to do so.

Everything but aircraft have to pick a role and stick with that role. Troops have to choose a class, tanks have just one weapon unless they have a 2nd player, sundies need 3 players to man, same with libbies. Why should ESF be able to take on all comers alone when nothing else can?

[Wahooo]

Skyguard and a second arm for the burster are the first two SC purchases I made.

If true that Higby thinks that AA is only meant as to deter air and not kill it I want to exchange my SG for the station cash.

Situation is stupid at best.

[RobUK]

It's a slightly worrying situation and one where you can see SOE making the same mistakes as other game developers have done in the past. Including the developers of Planetside 1.

The PS2 developers obviously spent a lot of time on the concept design and artistic aspect of the AA MAX and Skyguard. It's game content that should enhance gameplay and provide tools for the players to enrich their enjoyment of the game. It's perfectly possibly for something and its hard counter to be fun for both sides of the equation. We got there in the end with air and AA in PS1.

It's such a waste when you see developers nerf content into uselessness and/or make it prohibitively expensive to acquire in comparison to what you get for your currency. It's just a kludge to stop people using that content or to at least severely limit it.

It's a sign of lazy balancing, inexperience, desperation, or maybe even a bit of all three.

Instead of making AA useless, they really need to find an elegant way of making that content more attractive and rewarding for people to use whilst making it fit into the overall game. Nobody is going to spend money and/or certs on something that doesn't bring them personal reward and entertainment.

If a plane only ever netted the occasional kill and produced just a handful of XP points via assists, there wouldn't be the hordes of ESF's that we see in the game now.

[psijaka]

Well I've been holding off on spending SC on the Skyguard, which I believe was nerfed to the point of uselessness pre launch. Why bother giving up the ability to damage anything on the ground for the ability at best to be a deterrent against aircraft? The nerf pendulum swang too far.

Still enjoyed Max + dual Bursters pre launch, but Higby's comments are deterring me from buying SC and equipping this loadout.

[psijaka]

The solution to the AA balance problem is to restore AA damage to what it was pre nerf, AND to reduce the projectile speed somewhat, effectively limiting the range of AA.

It was the ability to shoot a Liberator out of the sky when it was on the horizon that was ridiculously OP, not being able to blast the pilot who was hover strafing right above you.

[Wahooo]

Bursters are mostly OK. They are still situation dependent and many times when they are needed they can't do their job, but at times they can wreck air... mostly due to the render thing it is hard to fight back against something you can't see. Air and a crafty pilot still have a major advantage there however.

Skyguard is a joke.

[KaskaMatej]

Bursters are mostly OK. They are still situation dependent and many times when they are needed they can't do their job, but at times they can wreck air... mostly due to the render thing it is hard to fight back against something you can't see. Air and a crafty pilot still have a major advantage there however.

Skyguard is a joke.

True that, Bursters are mostly OK, still too accurate IMO, but the damage is fine. They should be a close-range anti air, which they are. They have the benefit of being invulnerable if not rendered, can hide indoors and have cheaper resource cost and cooldown.

Skyguard, on the other hand, is as expensive as an ESF (resource and cooldown wise) but cannot do what is specialized at, being a mobile anti-air platform, and is vulnerable to air, ground and infantry.

I see less and less Skyguards because they suck at "guarding the skies". Hell, every organized attack I've seen since launch wasn't tank+infantry+AA+air, it was tank+infantry+mass air.

Now, if we'd follow air directive, why isn't infantry only answer to infantry, tanks only answer to tanks, and air only answer to air? The latter is true, and Higby said it is that way by design. The mass tank was a problem in beta, and they fixed it by nerfing AA (which was OP due to combined damage, accuracy and range), yet now we are seeing mass ESF because there is nothing ground can do against it!

Excuse me, but I don't see ANY logic in that. Fuck the rock-paper-scissors, we have rock-paper-gods!

[Figment]

The mass of MBTs was only a problem because they insisted on soloable units and the "have everything by default" setup...

So they solve it by unbalancing other units? :p

Sounds legit.

[Lieken]

I'm fine with this. Air should be the counter to air. Tired of all this no skill "but my fire and forget weapon should KILL YOU :<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< POINTSSSSSSS"

It's going to make me fly away so I can't kill you, and in that time you can get the points you wouldn't get if I had fucked your shit with my rocket pods. Flying over enemy controlled bases is already an impossibility if theres enough people there because every sunderer, tank turret and small arms can spray me down.

[KaskaMatej]

I'm fine with this. Air should be the counter to air. Tired of all this no skill "but my fire and forget weapon should KILL YOU :<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< POINTSSSSSSS"

It's going to make me fly away so I can't kill you, and in that time you can get the points you wouldn't get if I had fucked your shit with my rocket pods.

I can hover at a base when there are 2 heavies with AA launchers and I won't get shot down. Not because they don't do damage, they do, but because even in non-flares Scythe I can dodge lock-on rockets 50% of the time. And I don't even fly that much, or am skilled that much.

I am not complaining about AA rocket launchers, and most of us here aren't either, they are a deterrent, and can be dumb-fired upon ground targets too. The dedicated AA weapons, Skyguard most prominent, should NOT be a deterrent, it should be a killer, a hard counter to ESF. ESF has too much flak resistance for any talk about balance. Then they can also cert into composite armour which even increases the resistance, making them nearly unkillable.

Flying over enemy controlled bases is already an impossibility if theres enough people there because every sunderer, tank turret and small arms can spray me down.

You're just a bad pilot. Period. Tell me, why would you even start to think you will survive flying deep into enemy territory? It's not AA that kills you, it's your lack of skill, or stupidity, that does.

[Emperor Newt]

I spent the 1,000 cert equivalent in cash for the NC's HAWK, the Anti-Air rocket launcher for the HA. This is, and probably always will be, my biggest regret in Planetside 2 micro-transactions.
Same here with the VS one. Spent SC on that. Big mistake. Payed a lot of SC for something that is a AV sidegrade (less damage, better scope, less drop) but does a subpar job in what it description tells it to actually be good for.
For that much money/cert simply not worth it. Even compared to the rest of the mediocre g2a weapons.

As they don't think they will ever be able to fix the weapon they should just remove those and give people the certs/sc back. Or give them a free second burster instead.

[Figment]

I'm fine with this. Air should be the counter to air.

Go play a flight sim.

[Helwyr]

I'm fine with this. Air should be the counter to air. Tired of all this no skill "but my fire and forget weapon should KILL YOU :<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< POINTSSSSSSS"


If you want to demonstrate your skill strap on a weapon to an ATV and go to battle. Using an OPed Rocket Spamming ESF is not a great demonstration of player skill.

[Saintlycow]

I'm thinking that rocket pods and A2A missiles are the issue here.

Just for the record I don't have either, but I toyed with them a lot during beta.


The problem is that vanilla ESF are too weak, and Upgraded ESF are to strong.

The vanilla aircraft can't do anything against g2A rockets except AB away or break LOS.
Against a skyguard you are hopeless, and won't do much damage before you get destroyed.

With rocket pods, you don't need to run. If you can see the heavy with the launcher, you can just shoot him full of rockets. Same with the Lightning.

Simply Buffing AA will not solve the problem, it will only make it harder for new pilots to play. Reducing Rocket damage for one would help.

They could also add damage degradation to AA, and make it quite powerfull at short range. That way, anyone trying to do a rocket run against a skyguard won't be able to go toe to toe, and will be forced to sit at a farther distance, allowing the lighting to dodge rockets and pepper the ESF with slightly weakened fire, while sustaining little damage

[maradine]

Go play a flight sim.

In a flight sim, AAA is shockingly deadly. You don't get close to a Gepard/Shilka/Tunguska. Period.

Sentiment stands, though. :)

[Hmr85]

The Hawk would be fine if the air jockeys didn't get a 6 second buffer zone after they pop a flare... I am of the opinion that the flare should only negate that one lock on. After it is has been used then you can instantly be locked on again. I would much rather see this. The Amount of air spam we are seeing on Connery is getting insane.

Also, I agree with the poster above. Buff the skyguard back to where it belongs. It should not be just a deterrent. It needs to be a killer that will lock down a entire area. If they want it down then send in troops to clear it out.

[psijaka]

Also, I agree with the poster above. Buff the skyguard back to where it belongs. It should not be just a deterrent. It needs to be a killer that will lock down a entire area. If they want it down then send in troops to clear it out.

^ this. The Skyguard is quite simply a waste of time, or at least it was pre launch after it had been nerfed (I have no intention of wasting SC on it as things stand). If someone is willing to give up virtually all ability to damage ground forces, and to essentially be defenceless against ground attack, then they should be deadly against air. It's called balance.

[psijaka]

I'm fine with this. Air should be the counter to air. Tired of all this no skill "but my fire and forget weapon should KILL YOU :<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< POINTSSSSSSS"

It's going to make me fly away so I can't kill you, and in that time you can get the points you wouldn't get if I had fucked your shit with my rocket pods. Flying over enemy controlled bases is already an impossibility if theres enough people there because every sunderer, tank turret and small arms can spray me down.

You mean fire and forget weapons like rocket pods?

[Figment]

You mean fire and forget weapons like rocket pods?

Technically no, those are "spam and forget" weapons and fall more in the category "spray and pray" - even though with such guaranteed success, the latter part of that section is kinda missing. "Fire and forget" is actually missing the prequel in the trilogy to it "Lock on, Fire and Forget", mostly because the impact of the second and third chapter are more interesting to rabbel rabbel about. ;)

But yes, anyhing you fire in this game you forget after you did. :p The only PS weapon where this wasn't the case was the Phoenix (and the Decimator in secondary mode).


Rocket pods fall in the category "plasma" for me. It's fine to have AoE weapons, but don't make them too leniant.

[Juryrig]

Well, I decided to apply the principle of "be the change you want to see in the world" and specced a Reaver for air superiority, planning to blast those pesky AG rocket spammers out of the sky.

For NC, for Freedom, and for an honest profit!

Turns out I'm just terribad at flying. No shit, Sherlock!

Take off, fly around, start getting hit by things, utterly fail to work out what's even hitting me, die. Respawn as infantry at the nearest Sunderer.

[Sturmhardt]

Just played. Airspam, airspam, airspam. We teamed up as 4 Burster maxes at a biolab on Amerish an couldn't get the skies clear - wtf? The damage is just not enough.

[Juryrig]

I spent some time in AA phalanx turrets yesterday as well - didn't have much success there, either. I can't help but feel they at least should be a fairly easy way to suppress air cover - at least to create an air exclusion zone around a base until they're put out of action by ground units (which happens pretty quickly) but even before they get shot they're not hugely effective.

My lack of skillz is of course still a factor here, but destroying a slow flying aircraft at close range when you are in a turret shouldn't need much in the way of skill.

[Crator]

Turns out I'm just terribad at flying. No shit, Sherlock!

LOL, I did same thing yesterday. I barely ever fly, just not my cup of tea, and have no certs on ESF. I really grabbed it only to get to the fight in the center of the map. I actually got a few rounds into another ESF but was then somehow chased from behind and killed. :P

[RobUK]

Buff the skyguard back to where it belongs. It should not be just a deterrent. It needs to be a killer that will lock down a entire area. If they want it down then send in troops to clear it out.

I would like to see the Skyguard stronger, but not back to where it was at times in beta.

I also agree about that Skyguards should be dealt with by troops or other vehicles in the combat food chain.

I think this is part of the problem in the early evolution of PS2. It's not that hard to spot that most planes are not working together, and are certainly not working in conjunction with ground forces.

Air in Planetside 2 is pretty much a seperate game going on around the rest of it. I hope they find a way to fix that. We're never going to achieve proper balance whilst there are 2 or 3 different mini-games going on within the main game itself.

It's fine to have air vs air, tanks vs tanks, and troops vs troops, but those activities have to mesh together into a coherent combined arms game. Otherwise we will forever more being playing this fun but ultimately shallow giant deathmatch on huge maps.

[Lieken]

I'm sure I replied to this already but idk

Anyway

This thread is filled with people who think 1 infantry should be able to kill an air unit super quick

Wrong, a lone infantry should have no chance against a jet

"but it takes 3 missiles to take down an ESF!!!" Then find 2 friends, the game is based around team work. MAX suits with dual flak can destroy air easy enough as well.

Stop thinking you can be a one man army in this game who needs to carry an entire AA missile battery on his back, that is not what this game is.

[KaskaMatej]

Stop thinking you can be a one man army in this game who needs to carry an entire AA missile battery on his back, that is not what this game is.

This is exactly what ESF are. One man army, capable of easy kills on air, ground and infantry.

[Sturmhardt]

I'm sure I replied to this already but idk

Anyway

This thread is filled with people who think 1 infantry should be able to kill an air unit super quick

Wrong, a lone infantry should have no chance against a jet

"but it takes 3 missiles to take down an ESF!!!" Then find 2 friends, the game is based around team work. MAX suits with dual flak can destroy air easy enough as well.

Stop thinking you can be a one man army in this game who needs to carry an entire AA missile battery on his back, that is not what this game is.

You should read the thread instead of blindly posting, we are way past that.

[Figment]

This is exactly what ESF are. One man army, capable of easy kills on air, ground and infantry.

And for some reason, they don't want to admit it, why? Because they think that tool providing that firepower (and being impossible to hit/kill from the ground by design) is suddenly "skill" if they survive and get streaks.

Same happened in PS1. Pilots always feel more equal than the others for some reason.

[Crator]

And for some reason, they don't want to admit it, why? Because they think that tool providing that firepower (and being impossible to hit/kill from the ground by design) is suddenly "skill" if they survive and get streaks.

Same happened in PS1. Pilots always feel more equal than the others for some reason.

That is because the vehicles cost something; resources and/or use timer. Whereas the infantry counter doesn't.

[Whiteagle]

That is because the vehicles cost something; resources and/or use timer. Whereas the infantry counter doesn't.
Except I'm not even pulling my Skyguard due to how ineffective it is...

[Rahabib]

That is because the vehicles cost something; resources and/or use timer. Whereas the infantry counter doesn't.

Sky guards cost resources.

[KaskaMatej]

That is because the vehicles cost something; resources and/or use timer. Whereas the infantry counter doesn't.

Sky guards cost resources.

and MAXes also cost resources.

[Juryrig]

Same happened in PS1. Pilots always feel more equal than the others for some reason.

Same happens in real life. Have you ever MET a fighter pilot? Nice guys, but...well.... they just know they are shit hot. And they know you know they know it. And so on.

As to "one infantry unit should be able to kill an air unit super quick" - no, I don't think that, never have.

But infantry should have effective counters to air; ground to air missiles that hit often enough and do enough damage that pilots are wary of them, and have to use different tactics when attacking.

Approaching at speed to minimise the chance of being hit when over the target (with the associated disadvantages of having to acquire the target, aim, and fire in a short window of opportunity) should be a way for air to counter ground to air defenses, or at least mitigate risk.

Hovering within small-arms range to deliver a shedload of rockets on a precise point should be a once-only deal, as the ground units should be able to down the vehicle whilst it is essentially stationary in the air.

It's fine to have air vs air, tanks vs tanks, and troops vs troops, but those activities have to mesh together into a coherent combined arms game. Otherwise we will forever more being playing this fun but ultimately shallow giant deathmatch on huge maps.

Very well put.

Personally I think things need small tweaks. Ground to air missiles could do with being a little more effective. AA turrets could do with being a little more effective.

Unfortunately, once there is a mindset of "turrets are worthless" or "G to A missiles are worthless" people stop bothering to even try to use them, and those that do are scorned as n00bs. Then the only way we'll notice any adjustments is if they are huge buffs/nerfs, which is really NOT helpful. Hopefully communication from the devs will help prevent that happening.

[CrankyTRex]

As a pilot and occasionally a turret jockey, I think they have the balance either right on or still a little too high on the AA side. If you have any decent aim with one of those AA turrets, you can drive off and destroy aircraft very easily.

Flares have to be certed into instead of coming standard, so there's no defense against a missile lock for pilots that don't have the option to use them. Generally, a missile warning is going to force any aircraft to stop what they are doing and run if for no other reason there's no indication as to what locked on, and it's a lot harder to find out in the air than it is on the ground.

So one lone AA option goes a considerable way towards keeping aircraft away, or at least forcing them to break off rather than dominate a ground area, particularly lone-wolf aircraft. The problem is that it's almost never one lone AA option. In a game with this many players, it stacks up very quickly to the point that going into an area where people are bringing out AA is more or less suicidal.

Moreover, it costs tons of certs to get the good ground attack options. Yes, rocket pods are fantastic, but until you get them, you are utterly useless against ground targets. The minigun doesn't do enough damage to deter vehicles, and is too precise a cone of fire strafe infantry effectively.

Finally, on the philosophical side of it, I think air power should always dominate ground power. That's how it works in the real world. That's why air superiority is such a valued tactical situation, because ground-based AA is rarely effective at stopping air power. So ultimately, I agree with the original statement by Higby that if you want to kill aircraft, you need other aircraft.

[KaskaMatej]

So one lone AA option goes a considerable way towards keeping aircraft away

No, one lone AA will get destroyed in seconds when it open fire, even if it is only one ESF with rocket pods, AA gets destroyed.

Moreover, it costs tons of certs to get the good ground attack options.

And AA defence is free? Except for AA turrets (which are nearly useless) everything costs 1000 certs/700 smedbux. But unlike rocket pods, AA is bad.

Finally, on the philosophical side of it, I think air power should always dominate ground power. That's how it works in the real world.

NO! This isn't real life, this is a game, and a game must be balanced! ROCK-PAPER-SCISSORS, not ROCK-PAPER-ESF! Played enough games where air dominates everything, it gets old fast.

But say no more, you're a mostly pilot, you will say everything you can to make excuses for bad air-AA balance.

[EZShot]

Don't wanna be that guy but rocket pods are over powered as they are now. Every single player I know that plays this game agrees. Some use them some are victims.

All of us agree that they should halve the clip size maintaining the overall total payload. Firing twelve rockets takes no real accuracy, if you only had 4-6 in a volley it would require quite a bit more skill to actually finish the job.

Rocket pods are the only reason ESFs are becoming a problem. They also detract from the Liberators role on the field because rocket pods are arguably quicker to take out ground units, especially when you consider the fact that you can have 3 ESFs to every 1 fully crewed Liberator.

Before you cry out about there being AA in the game. NONE of it can take a single volley of rocket pods before being vaporised. AA turrets and lightnings are of next to no use, they aren't even a deterrent.

[boogy]

I really don't get how people hate on esfs while the real op air is the lib. Those things are near impossible to kill from the ground while a couple dual burster maxes can easily pick off esfs.

[RobUK]

I really don't get how people hate on esfs while the real op air is the lib. Those things are near impossible to kill from the ground while a couple dual burster maxes can easily pick off esfs.

Liberators die very quickly to ESF's

At one point that was supposed to be the food chain.

Liberators kill enemy vehicles, enemy ESF's kill Liberators and protect friendly vehicles from Liberators whilst killing enemy ESF's that are attacking friendly Liberators.

It was the perfect role for the ESF and would have made for a lot of fun.

Now ESF's just kill everything :rolleyes:

[Miffy]

Lock on missiles and Flak are fine but the standard AA turrets on prowlers and default MAX units for both AA and AV are really weak.

I feel the problem really comes down to one thing though, rocket pods. Now the easiest way to balance them out is to have AV and AI rocket pods as seperate purchases. This way you have to choose if you want to be really good against vehicles or Infantry.

I don't want to see aircraft nerfed or AA buffed too much because then it wouldn't be fun to fly. However Libs and Galaxies are balanced perfectly, they're massive slow targets that never last too long and need the light aircraft to survive really.

There is only one unbalanced thing and that is rocket pods being both AI and AV, you need to purchase them separately and have to choose. If you lower the damage you make it useless, this way it balances it out so you cannot be master of all.

[Soothsayer]

When I agree with Figment, I'm all-in, on-board with what he says. This topic is a time where that is happening.

The teamwork issue is moot because the ESF's aren't required to use teamwork.

Cost is negligible in some arguments as it relates to skyguards because they also cost resources. With regards to G2A infantry weapons, the fact that they don't cost anything doesn't really have any bearing because they are just so bad. The most effective scenario for a grounder is when the ESF is flying away, otherwise there's too great of a chance for the rocket to be dodged (which is fine, skill is not a bad thing, but infantry needs to have a fighting chance).

Basically if you have spent the certs/SC to specialize into something, equipped that specialization (to the detriment of effectiveness in other areas) and get put in a situation where the specialization is geared towards you should BEAST whatever you're geared out to take out.

That is not the case with AA. Then to add insult to injury, ESF's completely ignore that design decision and are very capable, effectively gaining specialization grade effectiveness without the drawback of sucking whatever they have not specialized into.

[boogy]

Liberators die very quickly to ESF's

At one point that was supposed to be the food chain.

Liberators kill enemy vehicles, enemy ESF's kill Liberators and protect friendly vehicles from Liberators whilst killing enemy ESF's that are attacking friendly Liberators.

It was the perfect role for the ESF and would have made for a lot of fun.

Now ESF's just kill everything :rolleyes:

That would be some good gameplay for the sky. I can see how nerfing rocket pods would open this up.

[GLaDOS]

I know balance is a little screwed up at the moment, and this definitely won't singlehandedly fix it, but it would probably help a little with evening out the difference between vanilla and upgraded aircraft. Right now, rockets aren't much of a sidegrade, as they're infinitely better than the upgraded afterburners. So what if we removed afterburners completely for rocket (A2G and A2A) users, and buffed them a bit for people without rockets? That should help a little at least, right?

[Captain1nsaneo]

Air does counter air but the talk is about their AA missile pods which aren't default equipment?

It's been said before that missiles of either kind are pretty much the only direct upgrade with no downside.

Prefer the AA v A dynamic to be more skill dependent rather than written off as simply deterrent.

Hmm... Effective against everything, 1 man vehicle, 3 variants... HMMMM

[CrankyTRex]

No, one lone AA will get destroyed in seconds when it open fire, even if it is only one ESF with rocket pods, AA gets destroyed.

Really? Because I spent a half hour last night killing planes from the ground in a tower's AA turret almost entirely unmolested. I think I died once, to a tank, no less. I don't know how it is for your faction on your server, but it's very rare that I hop in a turret and have somebody with rocket pods instantly kill me.

As far as 1 AA vs 1 ESF with rocket pods, if you've allowed the ESF to see you and aim at you, then yeah you're probably going to get killed. Just like if you run out in the middle of the road and shoot a rocket launcher at a tank, it's probably going to kill you.


And AA defence is free? Except for AA turrets (which are nearly useless) everything costs 1000 certs/700 smedbux. But unlike rocket pods, AA is bad.


Yes, there are free AA turrets all over the place. The engineers even have the free turrets they can drop and I've taken out a few ESFs that weren't paying attention with those too.



NO! This isn't real life, this is a game, and a game must be balanced! ROCK-PAPER-SCISSORS, not ROCK-PAPER-ESF! Played enough games where air dominates everything, it gets old fast.

But say no more, you're a mostly pilot, you will say everything you can to make excuses for bad air-AA balance.

Thanks for questioning my motives, because that really strengthens your argument. :rolleyes:

If nothing else, the timers and resource counters prevent me from being in the air most of the time. Unless I'm really in a mood where all I want to do is fly, after I die I'm going to have to spend some time seeing how the other half lives.

You know what bad air to ground balance looks like? Battlefield 2, where one lone jet can utterly dominate the entire map and nobody can do anything about it. This game has swung from air power being a little too much to AA being way too much, back to where it is now, which is pretty good.

The fact is this is a team based game about a giant war between three factions. In a war, air superiority is important, and if you want it, you need other aircraft.

But frankly, the thing that matters most often in this game is not R-P-S, but just flat out numbers. There will always be way more people on the ground than in the air, just because most people either can't or don't want to fly. If those people all choose to start shooting at the planes, the planes are going to lose.

[KaskaMatej]

snip

I'd like to know, what game are you playing? Because I am playing Planetside 2. I'd just like to know.

[Kail]

In hindsight, I wish the Engineer would have been given a Flak turret by default (with extended shield coverage). If HA is the go-to default class for vehicles, then it would make sense to have a go-to default class for AA.

[Figment]

I really don't get how people hate on esfs while the real op air is the lib. Those things are near impossible to kill from the ground while a couple dual burster maxes can easily pick off esfs.

Three ESFs or one Lib? I'll take the Lib.

At least it's more likely to be hit by your vehicle gun even at range due to being a bigger, slower and less agile target.

Plus they have less firepower than three ESFs and aren't as likely to get in your butt.

[Figment]

At long range, both AA and aircav should be piss poor at hitting anything. Note that air is still likely to use splash to hit nonetheless. Especially as it is easier to gauge distance and compensate when you have reference points (firing at the ground), opposed to when you have no distance reference points (firing at the sky). To hit anything, air would have to be relatively stable, giving AA a chance to gauge and compensate for range and distance.

At medium range, air should hit with approximately 40%-50% of the shots. That includes splash. Air should avoid hovering. AA should be strong here and any, and I mean any, lingering should be punished with getting shot down. Only high speed maneuvring should be viable here. Air should be more about: hit and run, hit and run, hit and kill, rather than: hit, kill and hit and kill again, then run.

At short range, air can hit whatever they want. But at this point they should be toast if they come under fire. AA should obliterate at this range.



I would say air should have more frequent reloads than they have now and lower damage per clip for A2G weaponry. This should incentice hit-and-run strafing runs over hoverspam and provide a window of opportunity for the attacked to respond and retaliate. If they want to hoverspam to get a kill, they would have to stay still in the air for a longer period of time, again opening a window of opportunity. At distances where they're not a threat to ground units, AA shouldn't need to be a threat to them. Currently though, any pilot can be a threat from any distance with the accuracy of rocket pods.

When I currently die to them I didn't hear or see them coming and they wern't on radar yet, that's a very "oh ffs..." type of death and that's not fun since you can't respond to it and frankly, I presume I'm better at seeing that type of death coming than a newbee to the PS series so I can only imagine how annoying it must be to them, especially if they're infantry game jocks (and yes, those need to be attracted to make the game a success too).



Air to ground skill should be about landing shots on the move, especially on moving targets, while avoiding AA and in fact, avoiding detection and then of course evasion. Currently (and same for PS1 Reaverspam) "skill" is defined by aiming in the general direction of a dot and holding the button to unload a clip of AoE rockets on a stable reticule, which is simply piss easy. Meanwhile, the current TTK on aircraft provides a large window of opportunity in which to do this and then flee (with flares for any locks).


Again, I have no problem with lock on missiles requiring three hits. But Flak is a costly investment and a huge trade-off made. It should be very powerful, though it doesn't have to be accurate at range.

[psijaka]

-snip-

^ this is as it should be.

[Mavvvy]

When I agree with Figment, I'm all-in, on-board with what he says. This topic is a time where that is happening.

The teamwork issue is moot because the ESF's aren't required to use teamwork.

Cost is negligible in some arguments as it relates to skyguards because they also cost resources. With regards to G2A infantry weapons, the fact that they don't cost anything doesn't really have any bearing because they are just so bad. The most effective scenario for a grounder is when the ESF is flying away, otherwise there's too great of a chance for the rocket to be dodged (which is fine, skill is not a bad thing, but infantry needs to have a fighting chance).

Basically if you have spent the certs/SC to specialize into something, equipped that specialization (to the detriment of effectiveness in other areas) and get put in a situation where the specialization is geared towards you should BEAST whatever you're geared out to take out.

That is not the case with AA. Then to add insult to injury, ESF's completely ignore that design decision and are very capable, effectively gaining specialization grade effectiveness without the drawback of sucking whatever they have not specialized into.

With due respect teamwork is never moot, I guarantee I could have many a flyer screaming op at my outfits co-ordinated aa defense in easimir yesterday on miller. 2 dedicated anti-air reavers working with 2 Skyguards and 3 shoulder launched hawks.

I rarely if ever see any pl's making such provisions so it really doesn't surprise me when I see threads like this.

[Juryrig]

In hindsight, I wish the Engineer would have been given a Flak turret by default (with extended shield coverage). If HA is the go-to default class for vehicles, then it would make sense to have a go-to default class for AA.

If the MANA A/V turret ever makes it into game, it should help. Given that it never even appeared in the beta, though, there's no guessing when (or if) we'll have it.

Other than that, I agree completely with Figment's post above.

[Mavvvy]

Yeah got to agree with figment to, rockets should have a spread, hadn't considered that as a factor previously, I suppose I was looking at the issue from the point of "how it is now" and how to be make a current workable defense.

[CasualCat]

Three ESFs or one Lib? I'll take the Lib.

At least it's more likely to be hit by your vehicle gun even at range due to being a bigger, slower and less agile target.

Plus they have less firepower than three ESFs and aren't as likely to get in your butt.

And a single ESF can also take it down easier/faster than it could three ESFs.

In fact we had ESFs on voice coms flying cover for our Libs the other night. Even with fully manned Libs and that air cover, a determined ESF could usually take down a Lib before it'd die itself. A rocket volley can take 80-90% of a lib's health down in a single pass.

Lock on missiles and Flak are fine but the standard AA turrets on prowlers and default MAX units for both AA and AV are really weak.

I feel the problem really comes down to one thing though, rocket pods. Now the easiest way to balance them out is to have AV and AI rocket pods as seperate purchases. This way you have to choose if you want to be really good against vehicles or Infantry.

I don't want to see aircraft nerfed or AA buffed too much because then it wouldn't be fun to fly. However Libs and Galaxies are balanced perfectly, they're massive slow targets that never last too long and need the light aircraft to survive really.

There is only one unbalanced thing and that is rocket pods being both AI and AV, you need to purchase them separately and have to choose. If you lower the damage you make it useless, this way it balances it out so you cannot be master of all.

I don't think rocket pods are the only issue. I think ESFs just have too much health. Not familiar with Gals, but with Libs at least, an ESF can usually just tank the tail gun damage to kill the Lib. So Libs and Gals might be generally balanced, but Libs at least still feel like a free kill for ESFs. That shouldn't be the case if they're within the tail gun arc.

The other issue is XP gain/cost for piloting a Lib/Gal vs an ESF. That certainly isn't balanced.

[Bocheezu]

One thing I've been thinking about is possibly another tier to Burster weaponry. I looked up the wiki and it has a Burster XS on there. This doesn't exist in the game currently.

http://wiki.planetside-universe.com/ps/MAX_Anti-Vehicle

The regular Burster left arm should be cheaper (500) and then 1000 each for whatever aircraft killer the Burster XS is. 2000 for two arms should wreck aircraft.

[Miffy]

And a single ESF can also take it down easier/faster than it could three ESFs.

In fact we had ESFs on voice coms flying cover for our Libs the other night. Even with fully manned Libs and that air cover, a determined ESF could usually take down a Lib before it'd die itself. A rocket volley can take 80-90% of a lib's health down in a single pass.



I don't think rocket pods are the only issue. I think ESFs just have too much health. Not familiar with Gals, but with Libs at least, an ESF can usually just tank the tail gun damage to kill the Lib. So Libs and Gals might be generally balanced, but Libs at least still feel like a free kill for ESFs. That shouldn't be the case if they're within the tail gun arc.

The other issue is XP gain/cost for piloting a Lib/Gal vs an ESF. That certainly isn't balanced.

They don't have too much health.

2 lock on missles and dead, you have to get out pretty fast after one and usually get taken down shortly after anyways.

Flak is an instant get out of there because in seconds they fuck you up.

The standard MAX Unit AA and the ones on vehicles I ignore, they don't do anything really, mainly because it's too hard to hit a moving target with them.


I cannot tank a Lib rear gunner, however the weakness of that gunner seat is it cannot fire above, so all you need to do is stay high and you can easily take out the lib.

[CasualCat]

<snip>
I cannot tank a Lib rear gunner, however the weakness of that gunner seat is it cannot fire above, so all you need to do is stay high and you can easily take out the lib.

Maybe it is some other issue then. I've been the tail gunner with a M20 getting near 100% hit markers and had tail gunners tell me the same thing when I'm flying only to have the Liberator die and the ESF live. The TTK seems to favor the ESF. I guess I'll need to get someone to help test it.

[CrankyTRex]

Maybe it is some other issue then. I've been the tail gunner with a M20 getting near 100% hit markers and had tail gunners tell me the same thing when I'm flying only to have the Liberator die and the ESF live. The TTK seems to favor the ESF. I guess I'll need to get someone to help test it.

Maybe this whole "AA is weak!" issue is actually one of hit detection or damage over range? Because if I'm taking fire from AA, lib, what have you, I'm going to leave because that stuff hurts and stacks incredibly quickly.

It also seems like the damage increases with consecutive hits, though I can't say that for sure. The first couple hits generally don't hurt that much, and then as whatever it is trains in, the vehicle health bar drops like a rock.

[KaskaMatej]

It also seems like the damage increases with consecutive hits, though I can't say that for sure.

It does not. This just proves how little you play Planetside 2.

[MrBloodworth]

I think some people forget this is a Combined arms game, not a game of Rambos like other titles of late.

Having Air as the counter to air is very logical. Makes the air game fun for those that do it, and puts a need for air other than tank busting.

When aircraft move into sovereign space, they launch interceptors, with G2A as support.

[Emperor Newt]

I bought AA weapons straight away at release and by now I really regret that decision. But I don't think that a lot of stuff needs much fixing, especially skyguards and turrets only need slight adjustments which have been mentioned here several times.

The only thing that is completely broken by design are G2A rockets. They simply don't work for what they are meant to do. Every other AA weapons does the same job way better. I would even argue that a dedicated Mana turret for AA is of more use in many situations.
G2A rockets simply become useless against skilled pilots who certed into flying. Of course I don't want G2A rockets to clear the sky on their own but at least they should be onpar with the other AA in damaging air consistenly. But the more certs and skill a pilot gets, the worse G2A rockets get. Until the point where they are only usefully against bad pilots. Except in the situation where you can heavily outnumber air, but then you could just pull single burster maxes and do an even better and faster job.

They are just broken and I doubt that they can be fixed easily without making them too strong. I doubt that there is a sweet spot of balance for these things. They are broken by design. You cannot balance a fire and forget weapon outside of 1on1 situations, which are not applicable for PS2.
I would even say they should remove them and replace them with something else that is not fire and forget.

[MrBloodworth]

G2A rockets simply become useless against skilled pilots

Not seeing the problem here. Skill is skill.

[CrankyTRex]

It does not. This just proves how little you play Planetside 2.

:rolleyes:

[Emperor Newt]

Not seeing the problem here. Skill is skill.
So why does it only apply to pilots?
The problem is that it should be able to hit a skilled player if you are evenly skilled. Which with G2A rockets you cannot as long as you do not catch him completely off-guard (which would be strange for a skilled pilot).

[MrBloodworth]

It doesn't.

Skill is also a Squad organizing 3 heaves to fire at the same time. Dodge that on your low to ground rocket strafe :)

What you want is a definitive hammer for the lofty nail.

[Wahooo]

I think some people forget this is a Combined arms game, not a game of Rambos like other titles of late.

Having Air as the counter to air is very logical. Makes the air game fun for those that do it, and puts a need for air other than tank busting.

When aircraft move into sovereign space, they launch interceptors, with G2A as support.

Nobody is denying that it is ok that air be there to counter air.

HOWVER; we have a platform in the game called the skyguard whose ONLY target is air, and is sucks (&(#&%(^***(& at actually doing anything about it. The thing is a coffin, and 90% of the time that i've been in one I get killed by... wait for it... rocket pods.
^^^^^
That is the real whole point to the outrage about AA. We have a weapon that can do NOTHING but shoot flak at air and the only thing it can successfully kill are pilots that would have inevitably crashed into the ground by themselves anyway.

BTW: I can't post this on the official forums but,

Subject
Re-fund on Station Cash spent on the Skyguard

Discussion Thread
Response Via Email (Customer Support) 12/02/2012 01:56 PM
Greetings Wahooo,

I wanted to get back to you regarding your request for a refund today. I was able to look into this for you and have successfully refunded the Station Cash used to purchase these Marketplace items today. We appreciate your patience and understanding, as we handle our ticket queue today. Please advise, reimbursements, in general, are limited and may be denied in the future, depending on the situation. If you have any further questions or concerns, please feel free to contact us again in the future. Take care and good luck.

Regards,
Operative Autobahn
Sony Online Entertainment, LLC

Answer Title: Refunds
Answer Link: http://soe-ing.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/
Answer Title: [PS2] END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT
Answer Link: http://soe-ing.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/
Customer By Web Form (--- soe) 12/02/2012 10:40 AM
I've read now that the stance of the dev team is that the skyguard is fine balance wise and that, as many pilots want to claim, it is meant not to actually kill aircraft but deter them. I would not have spent any station cash on this weapon if I new up front it was not supposed to get kills, especially considering the significant nerf to the platform from where it was in Beta which I based my purchase off of. If it can't be refunded then I ask for the skyguard to be placed in the decorative slot on the lighting because if the intention is to keep it in its current state as something to simply scare aircraft it belongs in the same category as the skull helmets for infantry.

Incident Reference #121202-001092
Product Level 1: PlanetSide 2
Category Level 1: Account / Billing Questions
Date Created: 12/02/2012 10:40 AM
Last Updated: 12/02/2012 01:56 PM
Status: Solved
Station Name:
Server: Watterson
Character ID:
Gender:
Guild Rank:

Problem Description

Character Name
Wahooo

[MrBloodworth]

Skyguard does not suck. Combined arms game.

[Miffy]

Maybe it is some other issue then. I've been the tail gunner with a M20 getting near 100% hit markers and had tail gunners tell me the same thing when I'm flying only to have the Liberator die and the ESF live. The TTK seems to favor the ESF. I guess I'll need to get someone to help test it.

Maybe it is the rocket pods, for some reason they do so much damage to aircraft, I think that needs to go.

All you have to do is reduce damage to aircraft, split AV and AI rocket pods up so you can only do one damage type at a time and I reckon they'll be pretty well balanced. I'd also like to see a gunner position on the top of the Lib but that is just me and it isn't really needed.

[Emperor Newt]

It doesn't.

Skill is also a Squad organizing 3 heaves to fire at the same time. Dodge that on your low to ground rocket strafe :)

What you want is a definitive hammer for the lofty nail.

If they fire at the same time all you need to do is use a flare. What you probably mean is them to coordinate their attack.
Yes, that's skill. Still I wonder by which argument it should take three highly organized players to take down one hovering lonewolf pilot?

[DDSHADE]

Ground AA DOES work.. just Air AA is better. The reasoning for this, simply is they want to keep EVERYTHING in the game fun. It wouldn't be fun to fly if every time you fly an aircraft you get killed right away from Skyguards. There should also be more frequent and effective cover from aircraft available for vehicles and infantry. I DO believe that the Skyguard may be overpriced, even though it is effective, used properly. I prefer the AA max, and I have been taken out many times from the ground by lock on rockets.. :mad:

However I must commend Wahooo for writing this:
If it can't be refunded then I ask for the skyguard to be placed in the decorative slot on the lighting because if the intention is to keep it in its current state as something to simply scare aircraft it belongs in the same category as the skull helmets for infantry.

lmao :rofl:

I think that the lightning SHOULD be given a slot (maybe unlockable after X amount of kills with it) that allows a secondary weapon. Like in PS1. They would have a light tank cannon and a small chaingun. The Skyguard could fill the role of that small chaingun. Fair? I think so, if it's just a deterrant.

[Beerbeer]

The biggest problem, IMO, is air is a hard counter to almost everything. I can solo tanks, turrets and infantry. I kill whore like crazy with it.

There's really nothing on the ground that can do the same to air outside of a tank shell.

Personally, I think esfs should cost as much as sunderers (edit).

[MrBloodworth]

If they fire at the same time all you need to do is use a flare. What you probably mean is them to coordinate their attack.
Yes, that's skill. Still I wonder by which argument it should take three highly organized players to take down one hovering lonewolf pilot?

Here is the real complaint. You can't one shot aircraft.

[CasualCat]

Here is the real complaint. You can't one shot aircraft.

You're way off base if you truly think that is the complaint.

[Dragonskin]

Ground AA DOES work.. just Air AA is better. The reasoning for this, simply is they want to keep EVERYTHING in the game fun. It wouldn't be fun to fly if every time you fly an aircraft you get killed right away from Skyguards. There should also be more frequent and effective cover from aircraft available for vehicles and infantry. I DO believe that the Skyguard may be overpriced, even though it is effective, used properly. I prefer the AA max, and I have been taken out many times from the ground by lock on rockets.. :mad:

Yea a lot of the people in this thread probably don't fly at all or just make false claims that they do.

On Mattherson all three factions make no fly zones.. lately NC has had a lot of air so we have had to use a lot of ground based AA to counter it. It works... skyguards need a little love, but full burster maxes and the AA rockets do their job well. Didn't take long for my outfit to make NC burn through their resources and hit cooldowns so they couldn't use air superiority anymore.

I am also very glad that none of the people on this forum outside of the Devs actually control balance. This game would be worse than it is now haha.

[Beerbeer]

I think rockets should be slightly changed, that and raise the resource requirements to 400.

[CasualCat]

Ground AA DOES work.. just Air AA is better. The reasoning for this, simply is they want to keep EVERYTHING in the game fun. It wouldn't be fun to fly if every time you fly an aircraft you get killed right away from Skyguards. There should also be more frequent and effective cover from aircraft available for vehicles and infantry. I DO believe that the Skyguard may be overpriced, even though it is effective, used properly. I prefer the AA max, and I have been taken out many times from the ground by lock on rockets.. :mad:

However I must commend Wahooo for writing this:

lmao :rofl:

I think that the lightning SHOULD be given a slot (maybe unlockable after X amount of kills with it) that allows a secondary weapon. Like in PS1. They would have a light tank cannon and a small chaingun. The Skyguard could fill the role of that small chaingun. Fair? I think so, if it's just a deterrant.

I think you've nailed part of the problem not the magnitude though. Air works significantly better than AA, not just better. The devs made it more fun to fly in exchange for making AA boring and unrewarding.

It is good that it is fun to fly. There were periods in beta where it wasn't. It is not fun or rewarding to be AA though most of the time. As a group you can shut down air, but you're forgoing fun/XP to do so.

The large discrepancy between fun/effectiveness/XP gain/SC&cert efficiency of an ESF versus ground AA is a problem. The devs don't appear to know how to fix it though.

I think they've recognized they don't know how to fix it too. They've said in the past the air/AA balance is tricky and I think them deciding that deterrence is the stopping point in the balance seesaw is them throwing their hands up admitting they don't know what to do.

[Juryrig]

I do fly, and I utterly suck at it.

Anyway, how about this:

Currently there are two secondary weapons for aircraft, guided AA missiles or dumbfire AG rockets.

And the dumbfire AG rockets sound like they're more effective against both ground AND air targets, esp big slow manouevring ones like libs and galaxies. Which just doesn't seem right.

How about split them as follows:

(1) Anti-vehicle missiles. Guided missiles with a shaped-charge warhead which lock onto air OR GROUND vehicle targets. Fire and forget, with the same acquisition/reload time as the current AA missiles. Effective against all armour, little to no splash damage. Can lock onto Maxes? Not sure about that....
(2) Anti personnel rockets. Unguided, dumbfire rockets loaded with flechettes. Short range with a fairly wide spread, effective splash damage against infantry but almost ineffective against armour.

Helpful, unhelpful, plain dumb stupid?

You can still spec the front cannon to give complementary AA or AG ability, or you can go fully AA or fully AG.....but rocket pods shouldn't be the single solution to everything, as they seem to be currently.

*disclaimer* whilst I am attempting to become a vaguely competent pilot, I suck. Totally. I also spent my SC on AA missiles, not rocket pods, so I have no actual experience of whether the pods are actually unbalanced (other than being on the receiving end of them)

[MrBloodworth]

You're way off base if you truly think that is the complaint.

I do not believe I am, and have yet to be proven wrong.

[CasualCat]

I do not believe I am, and have yet to be proven wrong.

You've yet to be proven right either wise guy.

[MrBloodworth]

You've yet to be proven right either wise guy.

Sure I have. These threads keep pooping up about how someone in a Sky guard lightning did not own the aircraft in less than a clip, Or that G2A Missiles with lock on did not one shot.

Its a complaint from the perspective of individualism, in a combined arms game.