Anti Tank Mines.... are you serious?

[Miffy]

I can accept 2 or 3 killing your tank but 1! I mean these are objects placed in the world using no skill and it tanks a tank from 100% to dead in one hit! I don't care if there are certs against them, this is madness! From default no mine should be able to blow up your tank in one go.

I'd accept a new mechanic of the mine disabling your tracks or your engine but not kill you in one frigging hit....

[KaskaMatej]

I mean these are objects placed in the world using no skill

Tankers don't use skill to evade/destroy anti-tank mines. :rolleyes:

[Majik]

The skill isn't placing them, but knowing where. You only get 2 or 3 to place on the entire map. If you put it in the right place to get the kill, then that is the skill.

[ShadetheDruid]

Placing tank mines at vehicle spawns isn't skill.

[GLaDOS]

It takes two mines to kill any tank from 100% health (except for maybe the Lightning, haven't tested it).

[Sunrock]

There has to be a reason for you to cert into mine guard too right? If the mine does 20% damage to you without them way the hell would anyone want to cert for it?

The damage the tank mines does is ok. And those that talk about skill.... This game is not really based on skill alone. There are way too many things that is "unfair" in this game to say every kill in this game is because you where more skilled then the person that you killed. For an example HE ammo on infantry, A2G rockets, grenades... in fact we need to remove every weapon and certification but the pistol and the knife if we going to say this game is all about skill. You also need luck in this game besides your skills.

But if we nerf tank mines damage they will be so useless that no one will use them. In beta you could drive over a tank mine and it would do so little damage that you could as easily just have bumped into an other vehicle. So it's not that they have not tested out different damage settings on the mines.

[AThreatToYou]

whatever the case, I really don't think AT mines should 1-hit a Lightning. Take it to burning, sure, but 1HK is not fun.
Either mine guard or fire-suppression systems should be the only two survival options aside from popping out if your armored shell and repairing the Lightning. Popping out and fixing it in a fight is more or less killing the lightning anyhoot.

[Miffy]

It takes two mines to kill any tank from 100% health (except for maybe the Lightning, haven't tested it).

I was in a prowler, ran over one and it killed me from 100 to 0....

It isn't like Planetside where you can easily see them either.

[ShadetheDruid]

I think the problem from my point of view is people rarely use them as-is (whether that's because you get so few, I don't know), but when they do use them - because you only get a couple and they're one or two hit kills - people are encouraged to use them in stupid ways.

Thus people only use them to be obnoxious at vehicle spawns (where there's not a lot you can do even if you do spot it), or to throw at parked sundies.

I couldn't really care less about people prefering lots of weak mines to make minefields a la PS1, but i'd side with them for the sake of people using mines properly.

[Rossum]

1). If it looks like a tank mine 1 hit killed your vehicle its because the engineer dropped 2 mines on the same spot. Thats kinda why the cert gives two tank mines while the anti-personell mines only give you one.

2. I think you can spot mines using infared or nightvision scopes.

3. If you think an engineer mined a vehicle spawn, spawn a flash to trigger the mines (the engie likely dropped both mines on the same spot so the blast should take both out. If no boom, deconstruct the flash and spawn your vehicle. If you only took out one mine, the remaining mine wont kill your vehicle so you can just repair it.

[Infernalis]

Should be like PS1, give more mines but lower the damage. A bunch of mines together is easier to spot than one alone. I'm quite sure you get one-shot in a Lightning with only one mine (100% damage in the death screen).

[Crator]

Should be like PS1, give more mines but lower the damage. A bunch of mines together is easier to spot than one alone. I'm quite sure you get one-shot in a Lightning with only one mine (100% damage in the death screen).

Yup, was about to say this. Give the option to cert to deploy more too. And have the disruptor mines added to the game as well. Tanks shouldn't be killed by one hit. And for the other vehicles it should vary. Sundy goes down faster then a tank, then lightening even faster, and flash the fastest.

[Bravix]

I liked PS1 style mines, but these are fine too. I never get killed by them so I have no issue with them lol.

Not to mention how easily they blow up. Can't use them in the middle of a firefight because one stray shell will set them off.

[Conq]

Tanker tears are delicious.

[Rahabib]

Getting Killed in one hit sucks doesn't it.

[Ertwin]

Exactly what's wrong with AT mines at vehicle spawns? I mean that's where you'd most expect a mine to be. The engies are being nice, and making it really easy for you to check for mines.

[Fear The Amish]

don't really mind them. Last night at a amp station a few engies must have gotten together because both of the shield walls were mined we lost a few tanks to that, and honestly i just tipped my hat and said good job.

[Hmr85]

Your not dieing to just one mine. Most Engineers will stack two up right on top of each other for the instant kill.

[Saintlycow]

You payed resources to spawn a tank.

I spent resources AND certs to get the opportunity to fuck up your tank.

You could spend certs to counter the certs I spent, and not get fuck up.


I see no problem

[Rivenshield]

I'm surprised OP is bitching. I've never even SEEN an AT mine in this game, much less been killed by one. They're delayed-use RDX. There are NO MINEFIELDS in this game. None. People keep bitching about tank spam.... old-school minefields would put paid to them. For awhile. Give another chance for a fight to coalesce.

Reduce their power by half and let us cert the ability to lay ten or a dozen.

[Sunrock]

Well on Miller AT-mines start to become common at defending tech plants after we started to use shield barkers on the sundy to get in....

[sylphaen]

I mostly play as an engineer and those mines are godly in terms of damage. You have to realize that they have to be placed BEFORE vehicles move over their location.

And you can only place 3-5 mines at a time.

The one thing they are awesome at is taking out S-AMS. But for that, you also need to reach the enemy S-AMS alive...

Understand that:
- you need to read where vehicles will move
- you need to read when they will move there (otherwise you cannot use new mines unless you sacrifice the previous ones which will remain unused)
- you need to use soldier resources to buy them (resources which could instead be used for a Max, grenades or bouncing bettys)
- it's usually impossible to place them when the tank zerg is already here
- it takes time away from combat to place the mines
- Vehicles usually arrive in such numbers that one engineer will never have enough mines set-up for all of them. If your tank column runs into a minefield, you got destroy by a lot of forethought, resources and teamwork.

Overall, it's a lot of effort and forgone certs when you could simply zerg around at a very hot base and farm XP.

The good things with those mines ?
- It forces at least one vehicle (the front vehicle) or your S-AMS to equip mineguards (70% damage reduction from mines ! :eek:).
- if enemy S-AMS take mineguards, it will not have improved armor so the threat of mines itself helps your team.

[Storn]

Getting Killed in one hit sucks doesn't it.

Agreed! Maybe they should nerf the tank main gun so it takes 3-4 shots, lol.

I use mines a lot and with 100% certainty I can tell you it takes more than two mines to kill a tank. There had to be more than one mine or you had a lot more damage than your saying.

[Storn]

I mostly play as an engineer and those mines are godly in terms of damage. You have to realize that they have to be placed BEFORE vehicles move over their location.

And you can only place 3-5 mines at a time.

The one thing they are awesome at is taking out S-AMS. But for that, you also need to reach the enemy S-AMS alive...

Understand that:
- you need to read where vehicles will move
- you need to read when they will move there (otherwise you cannot use new mines unless you sacrifice the previous ones which will remain unused)
- you need to use soldier resources to buy them (resources which could instead be used for a Max, grenades or bouncing bettys)
- it's usually impossible to place them when the tank zerg is already here
- it takes time away from combat to place the mines
- Vehicles usually arrive in such numbers that one engineer will never have enough mines set-up for all of them. If your tank column runs into a minefield, you got destroy by a lot of forethought, resources and teamwork.

Overall, it's a lot of effort and forgone certs when you could simply zerg around at a very hot base and farm XP.

The good things with those mines ?
- It forces at least one vehicle (the front vehicle) or your S-AMS to equip mineguards (70% damage reduction from mines ! :eek:).
- if enemy S-AMS take mineguards, it will not have improved armor so the threat of mines itself helps your team.

Basicaly everything you just said is BS!!!!! The vehicle dosnt have to be moving to destroy them with mines

[yonman]

Basicaly everything you just said is BS!!!!! The vehicle dosnt have to be moving to destroy them with mines


No, Basicaly everything YOU just said is BS!!!!!
Oh, vehicle doesn't have to be moving? That's too bad. Oh well, sorry about that, I'm sure it was a typo.

There, countered all your arguments. Anything else?
Sack up, you're a tanker, not a baby. Act like one.

[Miffy]

Well on Miller AT-mines start to become common at defending tech plants after we started to use shield barkers on the sundy to get in....

And it'll only take 25 years to unlock because I've spent ages getting 2 blocks done and so far it doesn't help.

What I don't get is the inconsistency of damage, AV weapons take away like a third of HP in one hit, yet lock on AV does the same and Anti Tank mines are an instant kill and MAX units do like 0 damage lol.

[Storn]

No, Basicaly everything YOU just said is BS!!!!!
Oh, vehicle doesn't have to be moving? That's too bad. Oh well, sorry about that, I'm sure it was a typo.

There, countered all your arguments. Anything else?
Sack up, you're a tanker, not a baby. Act like one.

Reread my sentence dumbass! Pull that head out of your ass! I am not a tanker but an enginner that uses mines. I was saying that the mines will go off no mater if the tank is moving or not is what I was saying. The mine is more than just a deterrent.

[Storn]

The mine can be used in so many ways that people don’t realize.

-Place the mine on the ground in front of a spawn and shoot when a group comes out. BOOM! Dead grunts to include maxes.

-Place at the base of a hacked turret and shoot. Boom, Dead turret!

[Fara]

Biggest problem I have is that mines can be placed under stationary vehicles and then detonate even if said vehicles doesn't move.

This leads to low-grief Sunderer teamkills simply because some douche wants to get rid of your sundy to deploy his own (and often in a worse position).


As far as Tank kills go, can we see deployables (claymore/mines) with the various night scopes?

[ShadetheDruid]

Thing is, I can see this causing a problem in the future for everyone involved.

If mines start getting used more because of their power, tankers are going to see the mine guard upgrade as a no-brainer and then everyone will be complaining about the lack of choice in that slot. At which point, engies are going to be annoyed that their mines are useless because everyone has mine guard, and stop using them. Mine guard will be swapped out again. Engies will go back to using mines, etc etc. Vicious circle.

I think it would make more sense to:

-Reduce the damage by a lot, but increase the number of mines you can have at once (reducing cert and resource costs as necessary).
-Making them place like ammo packs or turrets where you have to select a valid location* (ie. not just throw them on things), where "valid" also includes not too near a vehicle or another mine (so you get minefields and not minepiles).
-Make them immune to bullets (but not explosions or EMP).
-Reduce resistance from mine guard accordingly.

*As long as finding a valid spot isn't a pain in the arse on slopey terrain.

On the other hand, if we're going to have anti-tank mines as they are, can we at least have a hovering anti-air version?

[Storn]

Thing is, I can see this causing a problem in the future for everyone involved.

If mines start getting used more because of their power, tankers are going to see the mine guard upgrade as a no-brainer and then everyone will be complaining about the lack of choice in that slot. At which point, engies are going to be annoyed that their mines are useless because everyone has mine guard, and stop using them. Mine guard will be swapped out again. Engies will go back to using mines, etc etc. Vicious circle.

I think it would make more sense to:

-Reduce the damage by a lot, but increase the number of mines you can have at once (reducing cert and resource costs as necessary).
-Making them place like ammo packs or turrets where you have to select a valid location* (ie. not just throw them on things), where "valid" also includes not too near a vehicle or another mine (so you get minefields and not minepiles).
-Make them immune to bullets (but not explosions or EMP).
-Reduce resistance from mine guard accordingly.

*As long as finding a valid spot isn't a pain in the arse on slopey terrain.

On the other hand, if we're going to have anti-tank mines as they are, can we at least have a hovering anti-air version?

What does reducing the damage help? Who cares if there is a vicious circle! If a tanker has to put on anti mine guards so be it but changeing the mine to stop this is pointless. You cant be everything! You cant be protected against everything! Setup your vehicle for what you need and go forth. Just hope that what your protected against is the right thing at the time.

[Solafide]

It takes two mines to kill any tank from 100% health (except for maybe the Lightning, haven't tested it).
I disagree, I get owned by them all the time in a Mag, just one usually does the trick
I agree that placing them at spawn points is lame, they could have a spawn proximity block, but mines are usefull and strategic, when used properly

[Fear The Amish]

as a tanker i don't mind them i like the strategy they add to the game. I also use the shield breaker to take tech plants and i think its great that people are coming up with defenses to this.

[Fujilives]

Wrote a big rant. Deleted rant. Substituted rant about people afraid to leave their iron shell with the much more simple:

"Mines are fine"

[Storn]

I disagree, I get owned by them all the time in a Mag, just one usually does the trick
I agree that placing them at spawn points is lame, they could have a spawn proximity block, but mines are usefull and strategic, when used properly

I have never ever been able to use just one mine to destroy a mag unless he was damaged already. I work with a couple other engineers and they have never reported a one mine mag hit unless it was already damaged.

Generally I put my mines in the middle of the tank structure so maybe it only takes one mine if placed at the back end in the weak spot. Ill test tonight.

To the others saying we shouldn’t be able to blow a stationary target.. Why is that? The mine senses the target and blows. Why would a mine require movement to blow? There are real mines that blow when metal gets close do to a magnetic trigger. Try to remember this is the future. I’m going to say it... Learn to play! Tired of mines put on a mine guard!

[Storn]

"Mines are fine"

Your my new best friend! ;)

[sylphaen]

Basicaly everything you just said is BS!!!!! The vehicle dosnt have to be moving to destroy them with mines

I am not sure I understand your reaction... I was broadly stating that mines are a good tool but more difficult to use than a tank because it requires things like forethought. How stating opinions about mines being a complex tool is BS ? The only time they are not is when you are rushing a vehicle on foot to blow it up with fresh mines. Even then, there is a 2-3 seconds delay before the mine detonates.

Where do I state that vehicles have to be moving for mines to activate ? When I say "they are awesome at is taking out S-AMS. But for that, you also need to reach the enemy S-AMS alive", it implies you have to run towards a deployed S-AMS to blow it up with mines.
:confused:

Instant death of an enemy AMS is worth the risk, though.
:thumbsup:

Concerning your contribution, I find that your outburst out of nowhere calling people for saying BS or for being dumbasses is over the top. Do you really feel like everyone on the forum is a moron? What's the point of participating in a discussion with dim-wits ? You should chill out and stop being so agressive on a forum: it is not conducive to discussion and a forum is for discussion.

For instance, I actually learned something I had never thought about when you mentioned about setting up a mine and shooting it. It can be useful when I have the wrong load-out so I'll remember the idea. I only wish it was said differently...

edit: I also agree with other things you said. It's just the way it was said that bothers me and leaves a sour taste.

[MrBloodworth]

I believe there is a cert to help with mine damage for tanks.

[Ritual]

If tanks had to drive on tracks in the road like an amusement park ride then I would support your idea of lowering an anti tank mine's damage.

Since you can offroad wherever you like, if you hit a mine its your own fault. Its a big world and those mine's are awfully small. Learn how to drive. Or don't drive into hairy situations thinking you are big and bad, because that little ole mine will OWN YOU.

/endthread

[Timealude]

be lucky that my outfit doesnt start "mining" areas like they did in ps1 theres a few good spots to place them and alot of stupid tank drivers will keep using those areas. besides how else do you expect us infantry to stop armor columns?

[xuur]

no halfway experienced engineer will place JUST ONE mine in a location. thats too much of a crapshoot. if you feel like youre getting "one-shotted" it means the engineer did his job right and clustered them under your path.

now, betty's? different story. nothing like a well placed toe popper to ruin your day

[typhaon]

I've about had it with them, too.

They aren't implemented correctly. They should work as a fortification. They should be planted and I'd even award engineers XP for planting them. But, they should require a noticeable time to plant... and then a time before they become active.

I'd do the same with the AI mines, as well.


They shouldn't function as these 1-shot insta-uber-bombs.

[bpostal]

I typically only get nuked by AT mines when I'm rolling up in a 12/12 bang bus. Mineguard ftw.
If you're worried about tank mines at the vbay, most vterms aren't that far from where you're going to roll out of. Take the 30 seconds, walk around and visually check for mines. Play EOD if you have to. Or better yet, get your buddy to pull his vehicle first.

[Xaine]

Mines are dumb in their current form.

You shouldn't be able to run at a parked Sundi, lob mines at it and have them blow up instantly. Thats what C4 is meant to do.

Irrelevant of what they were meant to be used for, their current practical use is broken.

[wasdie]

Mines should be a deterrent, not a one hit kill thing. There should be little to no one hit kill weaponry in this game.

Make landmines how they were back in Planetside 1. They acted as a great deterrent but they didn't cheaply kill.

This would need other balances. Mines would need to replace your turret AND ammo pack. If you're going to play an engineer with mines, you lose everything but the ability to repair. Next, if you change out of the engineer class your mines will be deleted. If you swap out your mines for something else, they are also then deleted from the battlefield.

If you want to keep your mines on the battlefield, you have to always spawn back into the battlefield with mines equipped. This way they won't go away unless you place more down (which then removes your mines in the order you placed them).

You would need to have these limitations otherwise with 600 players on a team I can imagine endless minefields.

Engineers would get EXP for each mine that successfully hits an enemy.

There, more fun for everybody.

[typhaon]

I typically only get nuked by AT mines when I'm rolling up in a 12/12 bang bus. Mineguard ftw.
If you're worried about tank mines at the vbay, most vterms aren't that far from where you're going to roll out of. Take the 30 seconds, walk around and visually check for mines. Play EOD if you have to. Or better yet, get your buddy to pull his vehicle first.


I don't think that's the thing that annoys most people.

I get driving my tank and hitting a mine... BOOM! Sometimes I'm dead... others... I survive with a bit of armor left. I think it relates to how directly I hit it? That type of gameplay makes sense.

I think what annoys people is when engineers use them as C4.

[Corvo]

Mines are fine.

[MrBloodworth]

Mines are fine.

Except they do not render.

[Fluke]

Mines are fine.

And I tank most of the time (4000 of my 6000 kills). Fully certed mineguard is not that expensive.

I also like placing AT mines - and no I don't want some stupid watered down version of them in exchange for a 10-pack of them. I wouldn't bother running around planting them just to see "50 XP vehicle damage" flicker across my screen occassionally. I want kills. Cause its far more satisfying to know that someone was too cheap to install mineguard, or too dumb to avoid areas of high traffic (mine hotspots). Or too lazy turn on the IR scope to check for them. And is now giving the finger to their monitor.

Besides, by AT mine-whiners rationle, why aren't you bitching about 'OHK AP mines'? Same situation (a 'cheap' OHK, with an option to prevent that (Flak armor) situation, providing you're willing to sacrifice a different bonus for the safety that flak armor provides.

I personally run full mineguard and flak armor all the time.

Leave mines as is. They're fun.

[bpostal]

...I think what annoys people is when engineers use them as C4.

I suppose that's fair enough. However given the fact that c4 is a separate unlock for each class not everyone has the ability to even damage armor such as AMS. With fully certed mineguard it's not a one shot kill and if you shoot the engy before he drops the mines it's not an issue.

[Sledgecrushr]

This reminds me I need to cert up mineguard.

[Redshift]

I constantly have 2 mine and 2 claymores set up.

I get a lot of kills from them, and I think they should be removed, they take no skill or effort.

They do 1shot regardless of what anyone here says because there's no deploy radius on them, you can drop 2 near enough ontop of eachother, 2 mines in 1 explosion is still a 1shot.

[Figment]

I suppose that's fair enough. However given the fact that c4 is a separate unlock for each class not everyone has the ability to even damage armor such as AMS. With fully certed mineguard it's not a one shot kill and if you shoot the engy before he drops the mines it's not an issue.

If you shoot a tank or Liberator before he one shots you it's not an issue either. :p Bit of a moot point there!

C4 leaves the player a chance to repair an AMS if the fire is put out in time. Mines do not. It devaluates C4 a lot, particularly for the engineer.

Why cert C4 on Engis if you have cheaper mines that deal more damage and you can carry more off?

[Ailos]

Getting killed by one AT mine takes a lot more carelessness than the alleged lack of skill it took to place them in your path.

[whipster]

The only thing a tank mine one hit from full health is a flash, I've landed a esf on one still not a one shot. The instagibs your tanks are getting is because some one is stacking the mines on top of each other.

[Baneblade]

The only real problem with mines is that they stick to your tank.

[Gonefshn]

In a gigantic neverending war game like PS2 mines and placement etc are part of strategy, defense and good game sense.

They need to be effective or else why have them??? if they are nerfed to do less damage then you should at least be able to place more of them.

This isnt BF3 or COD things like mines etc are part of defense and planning and only support a strong metagame IMO (not referring to the missing metagame we are waiting for, only talking about the existing meta of strategy and defense)

[bpostal]

If you shoot a tank or Liberator before he one shots you it's not an issue either. :p Bit of a moot point there!

C4 leaves the player a chance to repair an AMS if the fire is put out in time. Mines do not. It devaluates C4 a lot, particularly for the engineer.

Why cert C4 on Engis if you have cheaper mines that deal more damage and you can carry more off?

Jihad jeeps and putting 'em indoors to shoot MAXs. I will concede that 2 mines under a bus can make it go boom much more quickly than c4 but as there's ways to deal with that (and it's a lot easier to headshot an engy than headshot a lib) I just don't see the big deal. Especially when it's one of only two major ways for an engy to deal with armor and buses (The other being the new AT turrets).

If anything change them so one would have to turn around and shoot the mines for them to deal damage to a stationary vehicle rather than having them blow up a second or two after placement. Once (if) spitties with accompanying motion detectors are added this will be even less of an issue as AMS defense will be augmented by automatic means.

[RSphil]

every fps i have played mines normally 1 shot you and that is how it should be tbh. they are after all ANTI TANK MINES and they do what they are designed to do. blow the shit out of tanks.

though they should only explode if you run over them. this laying them down behind sundys and them blowing you up was crap.
if you have mine guards then 2-3 would kill you. again only if ran over. in other fps games i drive carefully near places where id put mines and if i see them i blow them up.

[typhaon]

Again... I'm not complaing about the damage. I'm complaining about the gameplay. I think it's stupid.


Let mines be a fortification that is planted. A task engineers do around bases. Give them XP. Reduce the resource cost of mines. Let them carry more. Make it take a few seconds to plant a mine. Make a mine not detonate on stationary vehicles.

Basically... make a mine, be a mine.

Mineguard makes sense as an upgrade to protect your vehicle if you drive over something... not as one of the possible things you can choose to protect yourself from hand hurled explosives!

If engineers want to run around tossing frisbees at tanks/sunderers, let them cert up C4.

[Sturmhardt]

I would appreciate if mines did less damage and you could carry more of them. They should also have a radius around them where you can't place another mine so they have to be a little spread out. That could give the driver time to react if he drives slowly and cautious. That would make driving into mines less frustrating.

.sent via phone.

[Kerrec]

...Basically... make a mine, be a mine.

Mineguard makes sense as an upgrade to protect your vehicle if you drive over something... not as one of the possible things you can choose to protect yourself from hand hurled explosives!

If engineers want to run around tossing frisbees at tanks/sunderers, let them cert up C4.

There were mines in WW2 that had the option of a crush fuse OR a timed fuse. Why put a timed fuse on a mine you ask? Well, I'll tell you. It's to be able to throw them at vehicles and have them explode without being run over. So "frisbee" mines ARE mines because such a thing existed in real life 70 years ago. Mine technology already exists today, that triggers via the presence of massively metal "things". IE: the fuses are magnetically triggered, so throwing those at stationary vehicles would set them off (I wouldn't want to be in throwing range of one when it goes off though!). As for mines being able to identify friend and foe... well we are playing a game set FAR into the future.

So the whole "mines should act like mines" is a baseless argument. What you should be saying is "mines should act like I want them to act". And that is a matter of opinion, which you are entitled to.

Besides killing vehicles, mines do ONE thing: They force people to choose their defensive loadout. Do you take Blockade armor, or Mineguard? Blockade armor has alot going for it, but leaves one huge vulnerability. Mineguard renders mines a non-issue, but leaves the Sunderer vulnerable to everything else. It's the mines vs. everything else that is the issue I have with the proposal to make numerous weaker spread out minefields to REPLACE the existing mines.

If you alter mines to make them a deterrant, then you allow player reflexes + repair tool to counter mines. That leaves Blockade armor as the de-facto defense choice (or the top/side/front armor for tanks). And guess what? Blockade armor reduces damage done by C4! The very thing you say you want Engineers to use instead of mines.

How convenient, hmm?

[Rahabib]

I hate the idea of lowering the damage. I would much rather use them as... well mines. You have to move on top of them. They can still be effective, but they shouldn't just be a more powerful version of C4. However, if they are going to do this to mines (and they should) they should make them difficult to detect (require use of some item to see them, only infantry can see them and they must mark them for vehicles, or just force vehicles to use mine guard).

Oh and I play Engy primarily and even I think they are dumb as is.

[Bloodlet]

There were mines in WW2 that had the option of a crush fuse OR a timed fuse. Why put a timed fuse on a mine you ask? Well, I'll tell you. It's to be able to throw them at vehicles and have them explode without being run over. So "frisbee" mines ARE mines because such a thing existed in real life 70 years ago. Mine technology already exists today, that triggers via the presence of massively metal "things". IE: the fuses are magnetically triggered, so throwing those at stationary vehicles would set them off (I wouldn't want to be in throwing range of one when it goes off though!). As for mines being able to identify friend and foe... well we are playing a game set FAR into the future.

So the whole "mines should act like mines" is a baseless argument. What you should be saying is "mines should act like I want them to act". And that is a matter of opinion, which you are entitled to.

Besides killing vehicles, mines do ONE thing: They force people to choose their defensive loadout. Do you take Blockade armor, or Mineguard? Blockade armor has alot going for it, but leaves one huge vulnerability. Mineguard renders mines a non-issue, but leaves the Sunderer vulnerable to everything else. It's the mines vs. everything else that is the issue I have with the proposal to make numerous weaker spread out minefields to REPLACE the existing mines.

If you alter mines to make them a deterrant, then you allow player reflexes + repair tool to counter mines. That leaves Blockade armor as the de-facto defense choice (or the top/side/front armor for tanks). And guess what? Blockade armor reduces damage done by C4! The very thing you say you want Engineers to use instead of mines.

How convenient, hmm?

This exactly. Don't you get tired of having to type out this explaination to every mine whiner out there? I did which is why I just quip that mines are fine and they need to l2p.

[Figment]

Kerrec, does it say anywhere there wouldn't be need for some changes to Boomers? (C4 remains a lie)

Who says you wouldn't get to carry an extra C4 at some point? I mean come on, if that is your argument against, that is sorted in a few minutes of coding.

[Kerrec]

Figment,

If you alter C4 so they can one shot (ie: several being set off at once so they kill in one explosion) the way mines do now, then what are you really changing?

Even if you change C4 so it replaces AV mines for tank/Sunderer busting for the sole purpose of implementing your vision of mine fields into PS2, we still end up having Blockade Armor being WAY more useful than Mineguard.

Mining a defended Sunderer is already a difficult job. I'd estimate I probably have a success rate well below 50%. I doubt it would increase or decrease much if I used C4 instead (I do use C4 when I'm on my LA instead of Engie).

Mining an undefended Sunderer is easy, and I even get to walk away alive. Make me carry C4 instead and the Sunderer still dies. I still get to walk away alive.

I just don't see the point. But I do see the drawback: Blockade vs. Mineguard.

If what you want is to have big minefields, then I'm OK with that. Introduce a new mine that has all the mechanics you describe and make the engineers choose between the current ones or the "minefield" ones. Everyone gets what they want. Yet the importance of Mineguard vs. Blockade doesn't get broken in the process.

Why is such a compromise so difficult to accept?

[typhaon]

This exactly. Don't you get tired of having to type out this explaination to every mine whiner out there? I did which is why I just quip that mines are fine and they need to l2p.

You're not comprehending...

This is a video game. We already have "walk up and hurl explosive from point blank range" gameplay in the game... it's called C4.

To have a second version of almost the same gameplay... slightly dumbed down because there is no 'trigger' needed, which is arbitrarily (and massively) protected against by 1 upgrade - while the exact same gameplay isn't protected by that same upgrade... is dumb.

[Kerrec]

You're not comprehending...

This is a video game. We already have "walk up and hurl explosive from point blank range" gameplay in the game... it's called C4.

To have a second version of almost the same gameplay... slightly dumbed down because there is no 'trigger' needed, which is arbitrarily (and massively) protected against by 1 upgrade - while the exact same gameplay isn't protected by that same upgrade... is dumb.

No. C4 is TONS more versatile than an AV mine.

- You can place C4 where and how you want.
- You can EASILY detonate C4 WHEN you want.

- Mines can ONLY go on the floor/ground.
- Intentionally setting off an AV mine by shooting it requires you to be in Line of Sight, use up another form of ammunition AND be close enough to be in killing distance of the thing you're trying to damage with the mine in the first place.
- Mines do not differentiate between vehicles. You are as likely to have it triggered by a vehicle with mineguard or a flash as you are to hit an un-mineguarded tank/sunderer.

Because of this ONE ROLE it has, Mines are cheaper than C4 and balanced just fine relative to C4.

[Figment]

Figment,

If you alter C4 so they can one shot (ie: several being set off at once so they kill in one explosion) the way mines do now, then what are you really changing?

Which you can, after you make a SECOND RUN atm. If you get an extra C4, it still takes more time to place than mines.

But for the record, I've mentioned several times before that I'd like some changes to C4, which I use constantly btw.


But of course for your convenience it's easier to be concise on topic, instead of repeating comments from another thread on mines about what to change about C4:


Trigger functionality:

Blow up one at a time, in order of placement, alternatively, one (numbered) trigger per C4 so you can place several and select which one to blow up.
If you get killed, you have to go back and pick up a new trigger from the C4.

More spread rigging: Preferably not set other explosives off when one or something else explodes nearby, rather destroying the others.
Ways for enemies to disable C4 and mines without blowing them up and by blowing them up (shooting them off or Handling button and EMP grenades for the latter).


Currently I find C4 to be too easy. Killed a few hundred with my LA/C4 so far.


Still, I don't see why a stationary unit should have a mineguard in the first place. A mineguard is for use when moving as you expect to hit mines. Sure, I can see the logic of the current situation where a mineguard is "useful", but I don't enjoy that functionality from either side. It's too easy. The lack of interference radius is what causes this thread as well.

There's plenty of trade off for a blockade runner and a vanguard (front) unit to have a mineguard in case of a higher omnipresence of mines and minefields. Far more even than today. But then the guard is used for getting in position and maneuvring, not for stationary protection.



And the shooting a guy in the face thing before they get there is such a cliché that's not true. When I use tank mines or C4, I regularly bail from a Lightning that's on fire: the smoke conceals me and I'm in position before they can react as I only need to traverse a few meters.

If I approach as a Light Assault or Engineer, I'll approach from the opposite direction of where I'm expected to come from, or jump down from a building or rock or come up from under them by walking on the support structure of a bridge, jumping off stairs, using a teleporter, etc.

There's no way they should at all times or each scenario have seen me coming and most the time I don't give them a chance to react. Particularly not if they have a small team and can't afford to have complete coverage of the AMS (which isn't their fault, people should stop blaming the players for not being zerglings and design everything for zerglings only, it's a ridiculous design attitude that chases individuals and small teams out of the game). I know damn well how to stay concealed and suicide strike (see my K/D, I don't usualy go for the kills, but the objectives: if I kill the AMS, I kill all their reinforcements - why should I care for killing some nub that already spawned if I can kill the spawnpoint? Why should I care if the nub then kills me? I'll get him next life).

[Kerrec]

Your C4 ideas are interesting. Being able to trigger specific bricks of C4 could have it's uses, but I would still like one brick to trigger a 2nd brick if they're placed in proximity of each other. I would also like to be able to pick up explosives I didn't use, like mines and C4.

For the sake of brainstorming, here's another idea:

New kind of explosive, akin to EMP. Basically works exactly the same as C4, but it doesn't do anything more than render explosives inert.

If that was introduced, I'd increase the arming time for an AV mine. Only long enough that a Sunderer (or tank driver) can exit and trigger a pre-deployed (anti-explosive EMP/C4).

[Figment]

I'd definitely like a pick up ability (just press and hold the "perform action" button should make sense. Could also be used for disarming AV-mines and C4).



In PS1 we could deconstruct our deployables by clicking the one you'd like to have removed on the map btw. Would of course not give it back, but it would open up a placement slot without removing the oldest deployed item. I'd really like the map deployables related functionality back, both for overview and smart (re)placement.


This would also allow you to remove a Boomer explosive that was no longer necessary if you had already dropped the trigger. (Dropping the trigger would neutralise its allegiance, making it vulnerable to EMP grenades of your Empire to set them off. You could later pick the trigger back up). I've noticed that a lot of times when I placed a useless C4, random allies tend to stand EXACTLY on top of the explosive so you can't use a new one without killing them. -___-'

[zulu]

I think what annoys people is when engineers use them as C4.


I think that's pretty annoying, yeah. They're C4 without the cost or the time it takes to set them off. The only advantage C4 has over tank mines is that it can more easily be used against infantry/MAXes.


Besides, by AT mine-whiners rationle, why aren't you bitching about 'OHK AP mines'? Same situation (a 'cheap' OHK, with an option to prevent that (Flak armor) situation, providing you're willing to sacrifice a different bonus for the safety that flak armor provides.

Well, the very obvious difference is that it takes 15+ minutes to respawn a vehicle, whereas if you're playing infantry it will only take about eight seconds to respawn.

So if there are lots and lots of ways for the long-respawn tanks to be killed by short-respawn infantry at little or no cost, then we're going to get exactly what we see now -- in most battles tank drivers prefer to sit back and engage from a football field away.

"Well," you'll say, "then you should put certs into the timer countdown." A fair point, but someone just getting into this game who says, "I really like the tanks. I want to play with that," isn't going to have that opportunity, and the prospect of having to wait ten minutes any time he plays aggressively and gets killed is a huge turn-off.

Perhaps this is a different issue, but it's one that's related to the issue of tank mines (because it's an issue of how infantry can counter vehicles). I think if vehicle respawn times were drastically lowered (or, perhaps, even removed in favor of the only governor of vehicle spawns being location and resources) then people who largely play with vehicles and people who largely play infantry could both be happy -- infantry could get better weapons to fight vehicles, while vehicles could be more aggressive since any mistake they made wouldn't be punished with not being able to play in their chosen vehicle for several minutes.