NC weapons, is it just me?

[IronDragon]

I started playing PS2 as NC on the Connery server and while I never played PS1, I am experienced with FPS games and have been playing them since the 1990s. I didn't expect to murder everyone in sight, but nor did I expect the sort of strange situations to pop up that I've experienced so far.

I tend to roll as Engineer, Light Assault and Heavy Assault, so those weapons are what I've experienced the most as NC. In my first few days of playing, I did what I saw the enemy doing, which was to point my weapon at the target and fire off a magazine at them. Needless to say, I lost 90% of such fights. After looking around online for more information on NC, I read that NC's weapons hit for more damage, but the recoil sucks.

Well, that's alright I thought. You could say the same about the STG-44 in Day of Defeat or PKM in Battlefield 2. I know how to burst fire in FPS games, so I thought I'd be alright. I found myself as an Engineer defending a facility and found a good spot on one of the outer walls firing at infantry which were advancing on us. I tried firing medium length bursts at the enemy, 10 shots or so. Couldn't hit squat. I emptied all of my ammo like this and got zero kills. I dropped an ammo pack, refilled and tried again. Still, nada. No kills. I got sporatic hits on the enemy, who fired back on me with great effect.

I had to change positions because incoming fire was just too much to take. I refilled my ammo, found a new spot and resumed fighting. This time I tried short bursts. 3-5 rounds at a time. Still, I wasn't getting many hits. Often I found myself shooting at targets in the open as they charged forward, and my bullets did everything EXCEPT hit the enemy for the most part.

Finally, I put my weapon on single shot. I emptied two full magazines before I died, and never killed a soul. Just a few hits now and then.

This is just one example of my experience as an NC infantryman. With HA, LA and Engineer standard weapons, I just can't seem to hit anything.

Now, to compare:

I recently started playing on the Jager server as Terran Republic. Right off the bat I was killing people with ease compared to NC weapons. Compared to the NC weapons, my TR weapons feel almost godlike and I felt bad for the players I was killing.

At the same ranges and using the same aiming techniques, I'm hitting with TR weapons FAR more often and getting many more kills than I would with NC weapons. TR weapons even allow me to spray targets and take them down, versus the tedium of NC where I can catch an enemy trooper in the open, crouch down and begin firing bursts at them, only to have them spin around and take me out with hip fire before I can even get through their shields. I have very little of that as TR and at one point had a kill streak of 20 to my name.

So, is anyone else experiencing this? Yes, I can get kills with NC weapons, but it's head and shoulders more difficult than with TR weapons and is very frustrating.

[ShadetheDruid]

It's not just the recoil, we also have awful cone of fire compared to TR and VS, so we tend to lose out at mid range. The Gauss SAW is especially bad. Unless you want to practice and get really good with it, the best thing to do is throw it away and get something else (the cheapest option there is the GD-22S at only 100 certs, massive difference in accuracy and recoil, and it's much better at mid range than the other LMGs - you'll be halving your magazine size to get these benefits though).

The medic's Gauss Rifle isn't actually too bad for mid range, but all the other stock weapons (excluding the bolt driver) aren't exactly the best for anything other than close range (which is unfortunately where the TR weapons shine). The best option for getting more range is to pick up another weapon (although that's going to cost you certs/SC).

Other than the GD-22S for the HA, I tried out the new Razor carbine they added the other day and it seemed pretty good. It's much more accurate, controllable, and is apparently made more for mid range combat. Might be worth looking into if you play a lot of Engineer and LA, and you can always trial it for 30 mins to check it out.

[Figment]

That's something that's been pointed out by NC on a regular basis. VS tend to agree with the sentiment that NC are underperforming, TR tend to say we whine.


Then again, any complaints have been done away by some parts of the crowd as whine ever since release. Maintain Status Quo group has severely increased, a direct result of the game officially not being in beta anymore, even though it pretty much still is.

Getting changes through is going to be a lot harder now the beta status has been lifted though, new people coming in expect this to be a fully balanced and finished game already and they'll have a different mindset when it comes to rebalancing accross the board and fundamental system changes and testing new concepts.

[IronDragon]

Thanks for the replies. Do either of you know if there are any planned fixes on the way? The situation is really putting me off of the idea of continuing to play NC. I understand that the devs want each faction to feel unique in its strengths/weaknesses, but I feel like they've pushed NC's ability to be competetive too far in one direction.

There are times where I have the drop on an enemy, but I won't even bother shooting at them because I know my bullets will just fly off in every direction and I'll be killed by return fire.

Even when I encounter enemies at close range, it's still a struggle to come out on top. The first time I take a hit, it seems my accuracy just goes to crap and I become totally ineffective and will die.

[Ghost Runner]

Try shooting to the left of the aim reticule maybe? who knows but hey its worth a try.

[Figment]

Thanks for the replies. Do either of you know if there are any planned fixes on the way?

They've got so much to work on, not sure if it's a priority for them, probably depends on the statistics they use for reference. Did feel it was more balanced during beta. (even though IMO the TTKs

The situation is really putting me off of the idea of continuing to play NC. I understand that the devs want each faction to feel unique in its strengths/weaknesses, but I feel like they've pushed NC's ability to be competetive too far in one direction.

Personally feel a slightly better initial burst accuracy should suffice. Having need for more cone of fire control works as a balancing principle, but it's pretty darn tricky to balance just right.

Try shooting to the left of the aim reticule maybe? who knows but hey its worth a try.

Worked for the MCG in PS1, particularly while strafing.

[Juryrig]

The situation is really putting me off of the idea of continuing to play NC. I understand that the devs want each faction to feel unique in its strengths/weaknesses, but I feel like they've pushed NC's ability to be competetive too far in one direction.



I'm in pretty much the same situation. I've spent SC on my NC, so I'm reulctant to just bin it and start over, but I started up a Vanu alt on another server just for fun...and it IS fun, where the NC isn't.

The 'harder hit' of the NC weapons seems too little benefit compared to the downsides of reduced accuracy/increased recoil/increased COF/slower ROF.

I've spent ages as NC burst firing carefully from cover to whittle down enemies to kill them, and after an hour or so of that I swap onto my Vanu for some light relief - and in the same kind of engagements, just hold down the fire button and keep the full-auto fire landing on them till they are dead. Progress (in terms of BR, certs etc etc) seems to be around three times as fast.

I'm not whining - I'm a casual, average player, and I'm pretty much decided I'll just ignore the cash I spent on the NC character, wait for the next station cash sale and drop the same on my VS and stick with that.

But the experience does indicate to me that the three factions are not different flavours/styles with the same level of utility. As an average player, NC is significantly harder to play.

(I freely accept that for some players playing NC effectively, despite it seeming 'harder', may be very satisfying. But not for me. And I wonder if it's also the dev's intention)

FWIW - I would rather see the per-round damage of the NC weapons buffed, rather than having their accuracy increased or COF/recoil decreased.

[Figment]

The funniest thing though is that there are some forummers who will theorise that all crap/pub/bad/kiddie players went to play NC and all they need to do is l2p, which is supposedly some kind of global epidemic, since every server sees similar issues.

[ShadetheDruid]

I think at the very least they need to do something with the Gauss SAW. Even swapping it out with the Gauss SAW S as the starter NC HA weapon would be a massive improvement (and as a bonus, would leave the Gauss SAW intact and available as it is for those who like it).

Otherwise, i'd personally go for improving the cone of fire. I'm fine with high damage/low rate of fire/high recoil being our "thing", but if "duhhhh just burst fire" is going to be the general rule for NC then it needs to actually work.

[james]

As it sits it takes 200-300 certs to make most nc weapons any good. They are ok when they are certed up, but when stock they suck.
Higby has admitted the NC is under powered. So hopefully in the first large update there is a major balance patch to balance the factions, as of now, even in an outfit the NC is slowly getting old. While the outfits can hold their own, the zerg outsides of tank zergs is basically useless

[SturmovikDrakon]

So the problem is cone of fire?

I still want recoil to be their signature trait if something ever gets buffed, so don't touch that Higby :p

[james]

The biggest thing i don't understand is the nc take 1 less bullet to kill, but they decided we needed the slowest rpm, the highest recoil, and cof. One bullet is not that big of a deal

[Ghoest9]

The problem is 3 fold.

1 COF and COF bloom from firing that is hard to use.

2 The slower fire rate and the need to use bursts allows enemies to put you in bloomlock but you cant put them in bloomlock.

2 Graphical bugs with NC projectile impacts often randomly dont give visual feedback which is subconciously useful to many players.

[Mavvvy]

The funniest thing though is that there are some forummers who will theorise that all crap/pub/bad/kiddie players went to play NC and all they need to do is l2p, which is supposedly some kind of global epidemic, since every server sees similar issues.

Yeah exactly, and some those are the same people who left NC during beta. Funny that indeed.

[Fujilives]

They are in a rough situation, because if they increase NC accuracy, what's the differentiating trait between the factions? Even a step up in accuracy would put them the same as TR's accuracy but with more firepower.

[VaderShake]

They are in a rough situation, because if they increase NC accuracy, what's the differentiating trait between the factions? Even a step up in accuracy would put them the same as TR's accuracy but with more firepower.

I'm fine with that :lol:

[Mavvvy]

Not to be too cruel but NC had really bad beta testers. You reap what you sow.
A typical NC beta tester reply to OP NC weapons during beta went, stop QQing!

Not helpful.
L
VS and TR had great testers imho and posted detailed posts of the state of the
game, which oddly enough would be interjected by NC with, stop QQing replies.

Who QQing now bitches? :D

The pox on you sir!! But yes you are totally right. The problem as well is a self fulfilling prophesy ie. New players read about all the stuff we are moaning about and base a faction choice accordingly.

<cough>So Ermmm Nc forever...<cough> :D

[Ghoest9]

Not to be too cruel but NC had really bad beta testers. You reap what you sow.
A typical NC beta tester reply to OP NC weapons during beta went, stop QQing!

Not helpful.

VS and TR had great testers imho and posted detailed posts of the state of the
game, which oddly enough would be interjected by NC with, stop QQing replies.

Who QQing now bitches? :D


That is an embarrassingly weak post.
In other words.....


Not helpful.

[LexDecon]

I've played since beta with the GD-22s. Before it I used the standard GAUSS SAW and loved it.

I went with the GD-22s because it fits my play style more.

Last night I hit Auraxium Medal with the GD-22s. it means I've hit 1000 kills with the GD-22s.

I've been torn up by VS, and been torn up by TR. I know how the GD-22s works its recoil, how it functions to me and what I need to do to make it work. I like NC weapons.

Do I think there are a few issues with them? Sure. How do I compensate for those issues?

Change my engagement style. If I don't have to engage VS close up. I don't, If I do, I make sure I have guys with me so we can overwhelm them with fire power.

If I engage TR I make sure I have guys with me so I can overwhelm them with fire power.

Sure they may get me. But I guarantee the rest of my squad will ruin their day.

Even when our Infiltrators are doing their snooping and pooping thing. We run with at least three inf's and a medic and an engineer set up and do sniper interdiction. We overwhelm the target with fire power.

Team work baby. Its groovy! Weapons are weapons, the Dev's are tracking they will do their best to balance as best they can. When they are balanced people will STILL complain. So why Complain. learn to use them, adapt improvise and overwhelm them with firepower!

[Aurmanite]

I've played TR almost exclusively through beta and since launch. Today I wanted to see for myself how the NC guns handled. While I only played for about an hour which isn't really long enough to get a proper feel, I found myself kicking plenty of ass.

As soon as I could I slapped a reflex sight on the SAW and on the carbine and I just went about my business.

I could hardly tell the difference really.

[RSphil]

i like the NC weapons but the recoil is a killer and tbh makes no sense. the TR fire a million rounds with very little recoil. which as we all know is wrong. if you fully auto a weapon the recoil and spread is nuts. i think the TR and the NC recoil should be swapped. i tried TR and nailed 3 guys in 10 seconds as HA, when im Nc i always loose such fights. i use HA on NC from mid range and even long range. the NC weapons need recoil lowered or swapped with TR. i even have the compensator on the HA weapon and it still has too much of a kick.

[Beerbeer]

I started NC, worked to BR24, played my TR to BR23, went back to NC over the weekend, and man, the differences suck for me after playing TR for more than a week.

Not just the guns, but everything. Fast ROF has big advantages in this game where everything dies so fast.

I think everyone has an opinion on the NC infantry weapons already. But after playing in the mosquito and prowler for a while, I feel way more exposed playing in the reaver and vanguard now, at least insofar as how I play.

I can unload a full barrage of rockets and be gone a lot faster than the reaver because of the rof. My exposure to enemy fire is less and that can mean big differences IMO.

And the vanguard, at least in regards to HE infantry farming, is like night and day VS the prowler. If you just play the vanguard, you think it's great, but after playing the prowler for a week, it's kind of lackluster. First, it's harder to hit targets while zoomed in because there's a big barrel drift compared to the prowler. Secondly, each prowler shot can take out infantry just as well as the single vanguard shot, meaning I can farm for twice as long and kill twice as much before reloading.

The nc infantry guns seem nice to some because they're so streaky in the way they are designed. That means you'll wtf pwn some, while barely scratching others during different situations. People, especially from other empires who already have preconceived notions and biased views, will reinforce their thoughts with the former and tend to discount encounters where the latter came out. Human nature, because most people do these things looking simply to reinforce the ideas they already have, discounting everything else.

[Aurmanite]

People, especially from other empires who already have preconceived notions and biased views, will reinforce their thoughts with the former and tend to discount encounters where the latter came out. Human nature, because most people do these things looking simply to reinforce the ideas they already have, discounting everything else.

Confirmation bias is the official term for that.

I need to get in a bit more time with the NC and see how it goes. Finals are over Friday so there will be a gratuitous amounts of 'testing'. :D

[seanman]

it's the trick when i used AK47 at CS. Controlling recoil with memory muscle. 1st you must have a ultimate weapons for you it depends on you what weapon you like.
You can use PKM bf2 and bursting very good because you know the pattern and your memory muscle remembered how to control the recoil. And you used PKM for a long time.
Same as NC weapons, need more time, when your memory muscle can controll it you will shoot everybody easily with high power.

[IronDragon]

I'm going to do some more experiments today as NC, and I'll be doing it on the East Coast Waterson server. My other NC character is on a West Coast server, and although I don't visably lag in game, I want to take any question of ping out of the experiment.

Is there a way to display your ping in game?

[Ghoest9]

it's the trick when i used AK47 at CS. Controlling recoil with memory muscle. 1st you must have a ultimate weapons for you it depends on you what weapon you like.
You can use PKM bf2 and bursting very good because you know the pattern and your memory muscle remembered how to control the recoil. And you used PKM for a long time.
Same as NC weapons, need more time, when your memory muscle can controll it you will shoot everybody easily with high power.


The NC "recoil" problem isnt the way the gun moves along a recoil vector its the COF bloom.

Its really easy to learn to compensate for the directional recoil but bursting to limit bloom properly in a game with such quick TTK is tricky for most people.

[Figment]

And the vanguard, at least in regards to HE infantry farming, is like night and day VS the prowler. If you just play the vanguard, you think it's great, but after playing the prowler for a week, it's kind of lackluster. First, it's harder to hit targets while zoomed in because there's a big barrel drift compared to the prowler. Secondly, each prowler shot can take out infantry just as well as the single vanguard shot, meaning I can farm for twice as long and kill twice as much before reloading.

The real purpose of the Vanguard:

http://imgur.com/a/dXOcb

[Palerion]

Well guys I'm a TR player and I've got to say, you NC guys are not just a bunch of whiners. Your guns have too many cons and not nearly enough pros. I used to play NC but switched to TR because I couldn't handle the NC weapons (and I thought TR looked cooler :)). Seriously though, I know you NC guys aren't just whining. It's a real problem and I hope the devs can boost you guys a bit without overdoing it and making your weapons OP like battlefield 3's devs do.

[Whiteagle]

the real purpose of the vanguard:

http://imgur.com/a/dxocb
omg op!!!
narf the vungard barral lengh!!!

[Infernalis]

On the official forums it's a joke, some even go full troll and claim NC weapons and vehicles are OP.

Most NC weapons are slightly underpowered (maybe not all, some are ok with attachments), the problem is you can feel it and it becomes annoying over time. Couple that to the fact a lot of outfits are going VS or TR because it's more advantageous means NC are even weaker on most servers (especially EU servers).

I was leveling a TR char but stopped because I spent too much SC on my NC char. I'm sick of being the faction with always the least territory and with the lack of metagame I can see myself playing less and less.

[RSphil]

i dont even look at the official forums anymore. they are a joke. soo many idiots and whiners on it iv given up going on.

i have to say i have been shot by alot of TR and their guns seem to rip me apart where as my HA gun seems to need to more shots to kill anyone. if they are all balanced they should all take the same amount time to kill someone. but from playing all the factions NC seems to take the longest and thats with the gun modded to the max. standered TR and VS weapons seem to perform better then the modded NC ones and that can't be correct. some balancing issues still need sorting.

[Beerbeer]

People have ulterior motives in anything as subjective and emotional as this game can be.

I won't say all, but most people defending one side over the other have a sincere stake in the matter, in either how it may affect them, negatively or positively.

That, and most people just don't like change.

That's why if they make changes, the perception, on both sides of whatever change occurs, has to be better than the actual change. In other words, say they slightly buff NC, not a lot, but a tiny amount. In totality, the changes slightly tilt things to a more balanced environment (if it is indeed slightly imbalanced, which I suspect it slightly is) but in the eyes of those on the opposite end (and especially those that were most vocal about it), everything will be overblown way out of proportion.

I've said it before, perception of equality is just as, if not more important than actual equality sometimes, especially in this environment, where emotions can run deep. How this can be achieved is the hard part.

[Infernalis]

If many people complain then there's a real problem, after that it's always and ultimately up to the developers to do their job and see if there's a real problem or not because like you said you can't fully trust people. The best if they balance this or that is to communicate with the community.

I just hope the devs have some sense of balance and don't take months to do some change.

[Ghoest9]

People have ulterior motives in anything as subjective and emotional as this game can be.

I won't say all, but most people defending one side over the other have a sincere stake in the matter, in either how it may affect them, negatively or positively.

That, and most people just don't like change.

That's why if they make changes, the perception, on both sides of whatever change occurs, has to be better than the actual change. In other words, say they slightly buff NC, not a lot, but a tiny amount. In totality, the changes slightly tilt things to a more balanced environment (if it is indeed slightly imbalanced, which I suspect it slightly is) but in the eyes of those on the opposite end (and especially those that were most vocal about it), everything will be overblown way out of proportion.

I've said it before, perception of equality is just as, if not more important than actual equality sometimes, especially in this environment, where emotions can run deep. How this can be achieved is the hard part.

Essentially no one ever says "I moved to NC because TR(or Vanu) was too hard."
Every forum has plenty of posters saying they tried and moved on from NC because its hard to use the guns.

That is telling.

[Chewy]

Essentially no one ever says "I moved to NC because TR(or Vanu) was too hard."
Every forum has plenty of posters saying they tried and moved on from NC because its hard to use the guns.

That is telling.

For giggles I went 5 pages back on the forums and found 4 topics talking/bitching about about UP and OP weapons. (I ignored necro bumps)
http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=50837
http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=50977
http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=50898
http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=51058

Out of those 4, the top 3 say that NC are UP in one way or another. The 4th says that the NC MAX is OP within a Bio-lab thanks to the shotgun. That should tell people something right there.

I didn't go into every thread in the 5 pages and only opened the ones that had a relevant title, so there are more than likely missed. If someone cares to find ones I missed (ignore necro bumps over a month old, as that was beta) please post them. Id love to see some other UP/OP threads that doesn't talk about the NC.

Till we see other factions post about being UP or saying that other factions are OP at around the same rate as NC then there very well may be something to the claims. I for one say that NC is UP somehow, as they are the ones (on Waterson) that can never hold land without a rather large pop advantage (20%) while others can hold land with around a 10% advantage.

[Graywolves]

I've played TR almost exclusively through beta and since launch. Today I wanted to see for myself how the NC guns handled. While I only played for about an hour which isn't really long enough to get a proper feel, I found myself kicking plenty of ass.

As soon as I could I slapped a reflex sight on the SAW and on the carbine and I just went about my business.

I could hardly tell the difference really.

I've been making a point to exclusively use the stock NC6 Gauss SAW and have been floating around a 2.0 K/D

Some players have said they do a lot better with the Carv, I don't doubt them. I think these players are simply holding down the mouse button or not moving their mouse against the recoil. So on the SAW with its slower firerate they hit nothing but with the Carv it's a bit more forgiving since the bullets go through the pattern faster.

That's the conclusion I get from my own testing and the feedback from NC players. There really is nothing wrong with the NC6 Gauss SAW it just seems to be a hard weapon for a lot of people to figure out for whatever reason.

[Juryrig]

Essentially no one ever says "I moved to NC because TR(or Vanu) was too hard."
Every forum has plenty of posters saying they tried and moved on from NC because its hard to use the guns.

That is telling.

Pretty much this. It would be one thing if the NC guns were harder to use, but MORE effective once you mastered their idiosyncrasies. You'd still end up with a more 'even' three way player balance, which can only be good for the game.

As it is, it takes time and effort to master them, at which point they are just about as good as the TR and VS weapons are...without making any particular effort with them.

[RSphil]

i love the NC and the weapons they use. after messing with TR today they have good weapons also but as with everything they too have problems.

with my NC HA starter weapon modded i can kill from medium to long range easy. close up TR and VS normally win due to their rate of fire and ease of aim. this can get annoying but as this game is it is a game of tactics and picking the fights. i always go into rooms ready to fire and checking corners ect. so i get the jump on people most of the time.
as people have said it is just getting used to the weapons. the TR is no good at range as i found out today. tbf the starter weapon i was using was un modded but it destroyed people in close combat.

i like the feel of the TR but love the look of the NC and im used to feel now. tried VS and just cant get into them. dont like them at all.

im still learning NC and in a game like this with such scope i will never stop learning. so many classes, weapon ect it'll take a while to get my play style just how i like it.

though Nc do need to pull their finger out on Miller lol.