Time to get rid of HE rounds

[Beerbeer]

I think it's time they get rid of this. It's way, way to easy to farm infantry with these things; no effort is really required. I personally find it boring as there's no challenge, but I feel compelled to do it since the certs come pouring in and I see tons of other people doing it probably for the same reason.

Considering there's really no restrictions on vehicles in this game, it's time for a change. Newbies don't want to play because some of them (at least the ones I talked to) felt like cannon fodder and didn't have fun when they came here looking for some type of FPS game where they can at least shoot their infantry guns and not get molested the instant they leave the spawn room.

[Graywolves]

I'd have to agree that HE rounds are a bit rediculous. HEAT rounds already own infantry, it's actually what I use to farm. I can only imagine how many more kills I would have if I used HE.

It's silly. You're already in a big nanite-steel box of death and you're firing something that really has no purpose other than farming.


There's a clear food-chain here and that's kind of annoying.

[Simokon]

Yeah, I feel a little dirty when I am using them but then I look at my certs and go back to farming.

[SKYeXile]

nothing to see here, move along.

[james]

HE is fine, they are worthless against armor

[Simokon]

HE is fine, they are worthless against armor

You keep thinking that.

[maradine]

They're not worthless against armor, but they're certainly less effective than, say, hopping out of the tank and mooning the guy.

HE MBTs are an AP Lightning delicacy. Mm mm good.

[Beerbeer]

This game really has turned into: vehicle > camp spawn door.

That's fundamentally it.

Between the easy vehicle access and horrid base design, that is the entire point of this game now. Vehiclefest 2 or Spawncamper 1. Take your pick.

[Ghoest9]

Well since SOE just sold me and many other people a bundle that basically was high explosive rounds for every vehicle I really doubt they are going to remove them.

[psychobilly]

Would like a diameter reduction for all AOE. Less AOE, more skill.

[Graywolves]

Well since SOE just sold me and many other people a bundle that basically was high explosive rounds for every vehicle I really doubt they are going to remove them.

Yeah I don't think they're going to be removed or altered drastically. Even if though they legally can it would make a lot of people upset.

[Wahooo]

This game really has turned into: vehicle > camp spawn door.

That's fundamentally it.

Between the easy vehicle access and horrid base design, that is the entire point of this game now. Vehiclefest 2 or Spawncamper 1. Take your pick.


This is the problem. HE is not.

[Saintlycow]

This is the problem. HE is not.

Doesn't HE splash go through shields. I've heard that.

Also, Sky, you have a reason to keep it. I'm watching Fire right now. Unreal. I wish people were that dumb on waterson

[bpostal]

This is the problem. HE is not.

I'll agree with this.

[Bags]

we need to go back to the br20ish cert system

[Sturmhardt]

Yeah.. They can be pretty ridiculous if a tower is camped by 3 he tanks and they shoot in every hole like Peter North...

[Infernalis]

HE splash damage is still too huge imo, even if most of the problem comes from spawning. I would either reduce the whole splash area or reduce the damage the farthest from the center of explosion.

[cooonips]

they mostly just need to give better rewards for killing a vehicle.

[Moodel]

There's an easy answer to this and it does not require the removal or 'nerfing' of HE rounds.

Stop being sheep and spawning in the same area.

Better yet get more Sunderers and have multiple attack routes. Spread the battle line thin over a wider area and stop bunching. Maximize terrain.

[ShadetheDruid]

Hunting HE Lightnings in my HEAT Lightning is always fun, I love watching their rounds start bouncing harmlessly off me while I pound their tank. And you can always see the suddenly realisation on the part of the other driver that they're screwed, it's when they're down to half health after a couple of hits and start trying to reverse in a panic. Delicious..

..Wait, where was I? :doh:

Oh right.. Yeah, if we couldn't camp spawns and easily shoot into places like towers, there wouldn't be this problem. They could probably still tweak HE blasts, but spawn/building design are the main issue here (as always).

Btw, every time this comes up I wonder why people who know that spamming spawn rooms is an easy mode arsehole move still do it. Why just, you know, not? If you don't find it fun anyway, then you're doing everyone (including yourself) a favour by refusing to do it.

[Mavvvy]

There's an easy answer to this and it does not require the removal or 'nerfing' of HE rounds.

Stop being sheep and spawning in the same area.

Better yet get more Sunderers and have multiple attack routes. Spread the battle line thin over a wider area and stop bunching. Maximize terrain.

Indeed, or just maybe a couple of ap tanks to counter the HE tank spam. But hey who wants to use teamwork when you have a good farm going on.

The next part is not necessarily related to the above but its something which has kinda been hovering in the background of many a thread.

That is what is infuriating me a bit at times, balance complaints when the counters are not being used, because everyone wants the route to the quickest skill-points. Probably more of an indicator of the skillpoint mechanic not working more then anyone's fault. Up the reward for tank kills and maybe more people will spec ap tanks.

That said it would have been nice if tanks were designed more in a semi-realistic way, ie you unlocked shell types and were limited to say 8 specialist shells of ap and he and could switch between them (keeping a full complement of heat). This in my opinion would have been more balanced.

[Bags]

Yes, I agree, the enemy should be forced to use teamwork to counter me, alone in my magrider farming them.

[Figment]

This is the problem. HE is not.

It's just as easy to use in the field. They're both problems. :/


Radius increase should come with damage drop-off increase.




AND WHERE ARE OUR EMP GRENADES?!

302 Found

[Mavvvy]

It's just as easy to use in the field. They're both problems. :/


Radius increase should come with damage drop-off increase.




AND WHERE ARE OUR EMP GRENADES?!

302 Found (http://youtu.be/sM8jhdb8_H0)

Hell at this stage I'd take a emp cannon :D

[KaskaMatej]

AND WHERE ARE OUR EMP GRENADES?!

Infiltrators have EMP nades but they are very weak. They disable infantry's weapons, shields and HUD for few seconds, and they possibly disable vehicle weapons (I know my squad was complaining I EMP-d ours and theirs Sundy and nobody was able to shoot) but the duration is so short it's not really worth it.

If it were permanent (until repaired), then we would be talking about useful. Especially if EMP nades would disable the vehicle entirely (weapons, engines, abilities) they might even be worth 200 certs.

As regards to HE rounds, they are fine IMO. The player using them bought them (with smedbux or certs) and are weaker against vehicles than HEAT or AP rounds but better against infantry.

[Figment]

Infiltrators have EMP nades but they are very weak. They disable infantry's weapons, shields and HUD for few seconds, and they possibly disable vehicle weapons (I know my squad was complaining I EMP-d ours and theirs Sundy and nobody was able to shoot) but the duration is so short it's not really worth it.

If it were permanent (until repaired), then we would be talking about useful. Especially if EMP nades would disable the vehicle entirely (weapons, engines, abilities) they might even be worth 200 certs.

Haven't used it yet, but it's not IFF anymore? Interesting. Did you get grief for it?

What was the duration? PS1 was around 10-15seconds (ample time) on vehicles and what, 30 seconds on infantry + reset implants lasted up to a minute due to their charge times.

Should be an available tool for all infantry though. If anything it's a last ditch defense to get away.

As regards to HE rounds, they are fine IMO. The player using them bought them (with smedbux or certs) and are weaker against vehicles than HEAT or AP rounds but better against infantry.

Your excuse is pretty much "they paid to win in that area". It's fine they made a tank weapon that's more effective against infantry, but there are limits to how more effective one thing should become. Tbh, it's too effective. Consider you went from five shots (HEAT) to one shot (HE) and with what seems like double the splash radius. That's several big buffs compared to HEAT, really.

Hence HEAT Lightning takes significantly more skill to use with its six shots, even if the rof is a little bit high IMO. Would rather have a bigger clip and slightly lower rof.

[Over]

I don't agree that they should remove them. That is going to annoy a large number of players including myself who do use them from time to time when the situation calls for it.

With that in mind, the only logical solution I can see is to half their damage to vehicles making it an effective weapon to use against infantry only. Perhaps reduce the area of effect slightly (only slightly). If people want to gimp themselves to farm infantry then they should in no way stand up against armor.

Anyone else agree?

[Mavvvy]

How do people find fully spec flak armour currently?

[Qwan]

Wow how can we sit here and blame the HE round for stupidness. Ok lets say you spawn in a ENEMY SURROUNDED BASE with tanks at the spawn room. Do you

1. Run out the spawn room door and get splattered
2. Spawn at a different locations and regroup
3. Rage quite and go play CoD because you own in that game.

I think its all about playing smarter, if the spawn room is camped dont spawn there. HE rounds are just that HE!!! rounds High Explosive, there suppose to do splash damage. Being prior military myself, we were told if your out of Bullets on your Coax machine gun, switch to HE rounds to engage troop in the open. If those troops are dumb enough to run out of a surrounded spawn room then maybe they need to die.

[KaskaMatej]

Haven't used it yet, but it's not IFF anymore? Interesting. Did you get grief for it?

What was the duration? PS1 was around 10-15seconds (ample time) on vehicles and what, 30 seconds on infantry + reset implants lasted up to a minute due to their charge times.

Should be an available tool for all infantry though. If anything it's a last ditch defense to get away.

It does no damage but it has effected everyone it hit, friendlies and enemies., in Beta. I haven't gotten them yet in release but I actually never seen anyone using them either.

Your excuse is pretty much "they paid to win in that area".

No, not an excuse, a reasoning for specialization. Not many would use Lightning tanks if there were no HE, HEAT and AP cannons (Skyguards are a different thing) because stock cannon is bad at best. IMO.

[ShadetheDruid]

Not really related to the topic, but:

I don't think the stock gun on the Lightning is bad per se, it's just that people don't really use it properly (or at least that's been my experience anyway). It's more suited to use as a barrage weapon, rather than a tank cannon.

But the other cannons do open up a lot more possibilities, so you're probably right that the Lightning wouldn't be as useful if it couldn't specialise.

Edit: Added to that, I think the barrage ability of the stock gun would be infinitely more useful if you couldn't just drive into bases and camp with HE, but rather had to sit outside.

[Infernalis]

The base cannon of the lightning need a buff anyway, any of the 3 purchasable cannons are way better. I feel like they wanted to do like the cannon of the light tank (IFV to be exact) in BF3 but somehow failed.

As for the HE you have to look for the skill needed / reward / ressource cost / effectiveness, it's not a problem of players to dumb to fall to spawncamping.

[Hmr85]

I myself do not have a issue with HE rounds. What I have a issue with is the horrid facility designs we have to work around.

[Figment]

No, not an excuse, a reasoning for specialization. Not many would use Lightning tanks if there were no HE, HEAT and AP cannons (Skyguards are a different thing) because stock cannon is bad at best. IMO.

Well yeah, but specializations have to be balanced proper too. There's a huge power distance created with this specialization wrt infantry and even a smaller power distance would already be powerful enough, IMO.

I could do with three shot kills too and would already consider that a very respectful trade-off with respect to a five shot ttk. One shot just feels cheap to me. Reminds me of World of Tanks, always feel like such a bully when my Jagdtiger or Object 704 or KV-2 derp comes across slightly smaller tanks and instakills them.

[KaskaMatej]

Well yeah, but specializations have to be balanced proper too. There's a huge power distance created with this specialization wrt infantry and even a smaller power distance would already be powerful enough, IMO.

A ground vehicle has enough counters already, you just want to render them useless. A HE Lightning, for example, is very squishy (for armoured vehicle) and cannot fight off any MBT or even an AP/HEAT Lightning effectively, 10 out of 10, the HE will lose to AP if equally skilled drivers.

Then if you count in the lock-on launchers, ESF rocket pods, any Liberator belly gun, MBTs, even default rocket launchers, you will see that it has more then enough counters to be destroyed.

If you want to throw yourself at what HE counters the best, that is infantry, that is your problem and you should, are and will be punished by it.

Stop blaming HE cannons for not so optimum base design.

[Assist]

I think it's time they get rid of this. It's way, way to easy to farm infantry with these things; no effort is really required. I personally find it boring as there's no challenge, but I feel compelled to do it since the certs come pouring in and I see tons of other people doing it probably for the same reason.

Considering there's really no restrictions on vehicles in this game, it's time for a change. Newbies don't want to play because some of them (at least the ones I talked to) felt like cannon fodder and didn't have fun when they came here looking for some type of FPS game where they can at least shoot their infantry guns and not get molested the instant they leave the spawn room.

I agree and I abuse them right now. The VPC for VS and HE or HEAT are way too good right now. Even defending a tech plant, being completely surrounded, you can get a shot or two off in the mag before it gets destroyed and get a good 20 kills hitting the sunderer.

I think it goes beyond just the vehicles though, rocket launchers are used way too often on Infantry. I see more and more people each day just walking around with their rocket launcher out. Almost every class that can uses the noobtubes now. Basically the skill part of the game is greatly diminished because of the mechanics of the explosives. It's the same situation with the rocketpods, just it seems to not be addressed as much.

Personally I'm in favor of doubling or tripling the cost of explosive rounds. Make the tanks cost 2x as many resources, triple the cost of grenades, give a resource cost to rockets. Rocketpod outfitted vehicles just need an increased resource cost, leave the AA ESF and Libs alone. just my 2 cents.

The other thing they could do is remove resource bonuses from the boosts, which would make it a lot easier to balance the cost of vehicles, but I doubt they'll do that considering the amount of money they're raking in with the boosts.

[Figment]

A ground vehicle has enough counters already, you just want to render them useless.

Unless you apologise for this accusation, I won't be reading a word you say anymore.


And uhm 70/1 K/Ds with Lightning HE. Yeah. Very useless if you nerf it a little. FFS man, don't you ever use the word "useless" for nerfs on weapons that are currently OHK, because why the bloody hell do we have hundreds of other weapons that DON'T OHK AND are on more squishy targets!?


If you want a bloody farm tool, go live on a ranch!


FFS, requiring a couple shots won't make it useless at all! The HEAT is already powerful enough, if you can't kill with that, then you just suck. As I said, if a HEAT is fine with five shots against infantry - AND IT BLOODY WELL IS! - then three shots HE would suffice as a trade-off, where one shotting is a huge power difference: 5 shots or 1, that's FOUR difference. 5 shots or 3 shots, that's TWO difference. THAT'S STILL MAKING IT MORE USEFUL AGAINST INFANTRY. Don't you ever use the word useless again until you look it up in a dictionary!

[Dragonskin]

It's just as easy to use in the field. They're both problems. :/


Radius increase should come with damage drop-off increase.




AND WHERE ARE OUR EMP GRENADES?!

302 Found (http://youtu.be/sM8jhdb8_H0)

Is that you in the video Figment?

[KaskaMatej]

Unless you apologise for this accusation, I won't be reading a word you say anymore.
:rofl:

And uhm 70/1 K/Ds with Lightning HE. Yeah. Very useless if you nerf it a little. FFS man, don't you ever use the word "useless" for nerfs on weapons that are currently OHK, because why the bloody hell do we have hundreds of other weapons that DON'T OHK AND are on more squishy targets!?

HE cannons, good at one thing, and one thing only, killing infantry. And you want to nerf them so they wouldn't be good on infantry any more.

If you want a bloody farm tool, go live on a ranch!

I don't even have HE cannons on Magrider or Lightning. I don't want it nerfed not because I own it but because I know how not to get continuously killed by it.

FFS, requiring a couple shots won't make it useless at all! The HEAT is already powerful enough, if you can't kill with that, then you just suck. As I said, if a HEAT is fine with five shots against infantry - AND IT BLOODY WELL IS! - then three shots HE would suffice as a trade-off, where one shotting is a huge power difference: 5 shots or 1, that's FOUR difference. 5 shots or 3 shots, that's TWO difference. THAT'S STILL MAKING IT MORE USEFUL AGAINST INFANTRY. Don't you ever use the word useless again until you look it up in a dictionary!

No, the default cannon on Lightnings is bad. It also has 6 shots per reload so it shows you don't really know how bad the cannon actually is. It has the splash of an AP round. It has more drop than an old lady's ball throw. It does pitiful damage on infantry not to mention on vehicles. It has long reload time.

Maybe you should look in the dictionary to see what useless means and what you're trying to HE rounds to do.

[Figment]

"I'm a horrible shot and terribly unskilled at aiming even with a terribly forgiving medium splash 6 clip weapon, let alone daring to engage another, weaker unit in direct combat, hence I need to have high splash OHK weapons on infantry, because I couldn't possibly be expected to land three shots in the vicinity of an infantry unit."

[/ignore KaskaMatej]

Thanks for making that very easy.

[Figment]

Is that you in the video Figment?

Nah Bobbyshaftoe, good allround player.

I didn't play fishhead. ;) Phoenix was more difficult to pull this off with, hence we would use Decimators for that, or sit behind a tree or hill firing Phoenixes over it from cover (Phoenix was camera guided).

[Dragonskin]

Nah Bobbyshaftoe, good allround player.

I didn't play fishhead. ;) Phoenix was more difficult to pull this off with, hence we would use Decimators for that, or sit behind a tree or hill firing Phoenixes over it from cover (Phoenix was camera guided).

Interesting.. the video highlights a 1 man army aspect. Is that your goal for this game then? 1 infantry unit can take on vehicles of all sorts solo? That would make a lot of sense with the changes you are purposing.

[Figment]

Interesting.. the video highlights a 1 man army aspect. Is that your goal for this game then? 1 infantry unit can take on vehicles of all sorts solo? That would make a lot of sense with the changes you are purposing.

Haha 1 man army with a Punisher/AV? Hardly!

1. Weaponry. Punisher was the worst MA rifle available. It's only redeeming feature was cheap and a grenade launcher for EMPs (the rocket, frag and plasma it could fire were pretty darn useless with 1/6th health per shot and the rifle itself was worse than the three ES rifles).

He would be toast the moment an infantry unit would show, he'd miss the tank, an aircraft would pop in, the tank tried to drive over him. You can in fact see that he was quickly dispatched by one infantry.

2. Inventory space. There's a big trade-off made here. Since he brings some ammo for his Punisher (seperate boxes for EMPs and bullets) and needs space for his Lancer, he can not bring many medkits, other tools like engineer or med ap (if he had those), he'd not be able to last very long doing that role. He'd quickly run dry. We didn't have cheap ass ammo box drops like the engi in PS2 then.


This setup shown is aimed at minimum survival in the field and focuses entirely on using third person to get the drop on vehicles. Which is the only thing he can effectively target, since the Lancer as you see there, requires a lot of hits on infantry to even try to kill. Any infantry with even the weakest of weapons would easily dispatch of him in an engagements, unless they'd suck horribly.


3. On top of that, you have to consider that in order to have access to AV, he didn't have access to something else in ANY other life. PS2 is far closer to 1 man army's with the class setup where you can change unit and class at will, than PS1 up till BR40 was introduced. I absolutely hate the BR40 concept just for the 1 man army reason you mention. All players had to make choices prior to (reaching) BR40 in what kinds of weaponry they could or could not use in all of their lifes. The ones they picked they could freely combine.

You'd have 26 points to spend on a list of what, 50 certs, where each cert cost between 1 and 4 points, with some exceptions at 5 and 8. Most were 3. So basically you could pick around 12, 13 certs per character. If you take my character, I couldn't fly, didn't have AV, didn't have tanks, didn't have buggies or AA, didn't have medical equipment or heavy assault guns. Why? Because I specialised in hacking, AMS, amphibious transportation, infiltration and engineering. The remaining points I spent on something cheap like ATV and the rexo suit (kinda like HA in PS2, without the guns: guns sold seperately :p).


However, I'm highly in favour of creative use of inventory and combining weapons.


But FFS man, to call EMP + AV 1 man army... You really should have played PS1 some, you'd be emberassed about even suggesting that. :x

[Dragonskin]

He would be toast the moment an infantry unit would show, he'd miss the tank, an aircraft would pop in, the tank tried to drive over him. You can in fact see that he was quickly dispatched by one infantry.

He does kill infantry in that video. I didn't play PS1, but you can't deny that video coming off as 1 man army.. even if it was cut/edited to show that.. it's exactly what it does.

[Figment]

He does kill infantry in that video. I didn't play PS1, but you can't deny that video coming off as 1 man army.. even if it was cut/edited to show that.. it's exactly what it does.

And HA in PS2 kills tanks and infantry alike faster than he could with either that AV or MA rifle.

So not really seeing your point here.


If he killed someone with a Pwnisher, which was a hell of a feat what with a slower TTK of several shots, the man should be rewarded a medal, not scrutinised for OP. :lol:

It was 0.2 seconds slower against normal infantry and even 0.5 seconds slower at killing a rexo than the ES rifles. :)
http://www.reocities.com/doaclandoa/weaponsttk.html

[Dragonskin]

And HA in PS2 kills tanks and infantry alike faster than he could with either that AV or MA rifle.

So not really seeing your point here.

Just going to watch your crusade of balance, because it starting to look like.. nerf air vs ground... now nerf ground vehicles vs infantry... so if your next war on balance starts with buff infantry vs all vehicles then I won't be surprised.

[ChipMHazard]

While I do not see the harm in having all tank rounds being at minimum a two hit kill, except for sabot rounds which would require a direct hit to kill anyway, since the game is designed around scale and as such the chance of having more than one tank with HE, or default, rounds hitting an area is higher than there only being one. I do think that the farming issue, which I do see as being a serious issue, is more of a symptom of poor facility design that promotes farming tactics. It's easy to simply pass it off as being the players' fault for being too damn stupid to realise that having a group meeting next to a sundie is a bad idea, well it is, but they probably won't see it that way and may stop playing as a result of being farmed (it's not a very pleasant experience, or so I have been lead to believe from the comments made by the crops).
I do believe that I am being objective when I make the following statement; Planetside 2 really is dominated by vehicles be it the flying or earthbound kind.
I really do think that as soon as it comes down to infantry combat, like when trying to force your way into the tech plant, they should limit any and all involvement from vehicles as much as possible.

[Figment]

Just going to watch your crusade of balance, because it starting to look like.. nerf air vs ground... now nerf ground vehicles vs infantry... so if your next war on balance starts with buff infantry vs all vehicles then I won't be surprised.

I'm not warring randomly on stuff and I'm certainly not warring for myself if what I suggest nerfs myself. I do want infantry to be better inside bases and I do expect them to have EMPs and more flexibility. You can fricking one or two or three shot them while they can do barely anything to you unless you are foolish enough to let them get behind you (which shouldn't happen if you bring a buddy or two to watch your back - not even with a slower TTK).

Yesterday for instance, I killed 12 or 14 infantry in a row with a single Lightning with HEAT, would have killed more, had the collission detection not messed up when I tried to ram a HA three times. Went straight through him. He shot me twice from inside my Lightning, which was a pretty funny bug seeing his head stick out through my turret. He even had 4 stripes left somehow.

His squad was lucky, since I had gotten into an overwatch position and already killed 6 of them, two engis, two medics, two HAs who hadn't seen me coming (started with their rear troops). They couldn't even return fire aside from this guy and he was running out of rockets (missed two, hit once, which I had repaired behind the hill I was doing hull down from).

Maybe you don't really see this the way I do, but if I had a HE Lightning, I'd have farmed the hell out of them, because I HAD hit the HA before with splash. Had it been HE instead of HEAT, he'd have died and wouldn't have had a chance to get his shield back up.

Me personally, I would have found that really cheap and I was much more thrilled by him being able to defeat me than if he had been another statistic and smudge on the floor.


Probably hard to understand in a world of ego-centrists that think it's fine to kill 70-140 people in a row without breaking a sweat, but that's what you get when all the spoiled brats want uber-toys for themselves and don't think their opposition deserves a decent chance of success.


So yeah, if I see issues where some side is UP, I'll fight for that side or against a side that's OP. But don't expect me to exclude infantry from that list. In fact, I said before that it'd be fine for G2A missiles to be a three shot kill instead of two shot, because pre-everyone flaring, we'd instakill lots of air together. And lock on weaponry simply doesn't take as much skill, just more time.

Otoh, I don't see why one would have to wait with reacquiring a lock after one has already loaded or a flare has been popped. There's some proper balancing left to do in that area. Will have to see how this patch turns out first though before I comment on it.

[Dragonskin]

....Maybe you don't really see this the way I do...

Probably hard to understand in a world of ego-centrists that think it's fine to kill 70-140 people in a row without breaking a sweat, but that's what you get when all the spoiled brats want uber-toys for themselves and don't think their opposition deserves a decent chance of success.


So yeah, if I see issues where some side is UP, I'll fight for that side or against a side that's OP.

You're right. I don't see things like you do, but it has nothing to do with my use of vehicles. I am on the ground just as often as I am in my scythe tearing it up in the skies.

Vehicles are supposed to be powerful. That is the point of them requiring resources and having a cool down for re-spawning. If people would care less for the k/d ratio then you might have people more readily prepared to take on vehicles with the chance of dying.

In large scale combat in organized outfits all these major balance issues you claim are less of an issue.. large tank column coming?

"Hey guys, we need HAs with AV rockets. We have a tank column heading our way. Switch and roll out."... and within a few minutes the tank column is dead.

Large air presence?

"Hey guys, we need AA rockets, Bursters and scythes up ASAP. We have a lot of air that needs to be taken out"... few minutes later the skies are clear.

Just like you said.. lock-ons take a lot of the skill out of the game. The second you have 2 squads or more switching to take out a certain threat with their lock-ons then those issues go away. So to me.. HE rounds are fine as is. If we have problems with a tank or tanks.. we deal with them. We are never solo, so there are usually sundies or terminals around to make the change on the fly. Now if I continuelly looked at the game from a 1v1 perspective as you seem to do.. then yea, I could possbily understand your side, but this game is not based in 1v1 engagements and you rarely ever are trully solo in this game unless you are trying to back cap adjacancies.

Maybe it's a server thing. On Mattherson and i'm sure it is similar on other High population servers then there are plenty of people to deal with situations. Tanks don't normally go on insane kill streaks.. neither do air vehicles.. because eventually someone will take them out. I would love to see some one go 70-140 in a killstreak on Mattherson in a highly contested area. Just not going to happen.

[Quovatis]

They just need to decrease the anti armor damage of the HE rounds. You don't lose enough AP damage as a tradeoff right now, and there's little reason NOT to go with HE rounds.

[ShadetheDruid]

The AA launchers sometimes are three hit kills rather than two. Not sure why though. I'd say composite armour, but I don't know if that helps against missiles.

As for lock-ons, it would be pretty hard to have G2A missiles without it. :doh:

[Figment]

Vehicles are supposed to be powerful. That is the point of them requiring resources and having a cool down for re-spawning.

That's only half the story.


Resources, time limiters and cert cost are there to balance numerical presence in the field en enforce and a variation and scarcety of units.

They're not just a measure of power. They're all supposed to be trade-offs, which is why the current cert system of endless cert gain and having access to everything is pretty down right stupid, because you're not trading off anymore.

Killing for instance an air unit should ensure that air threat is gone for some time. Not because it's powerful, but so you can focus on another aspect of the fight. If you keep having to fend off the same guy(s) in the same air unit(s), when are you going to be able to fight those other units?

It's there to provide tactical meaning to a kill. Not just pure power. Since everyone has to be infantry, there's little reason to limit infantry aside from the more tactically impacting units, like MAXes which have very specific offensive and defensive advantages - AND - disadvantages. And not having the same advantages and disadvantages across the board or all the time (tactical meaning).

Cost is there to ensure there would be sufficient infantry for infantry on infantry combat. It's there to ensure people don't all have personal transports, so they would choose to gun for others and would have need for transport vehicles and therefore choose to board them rather than hop in their own, solo, non-transport, combat vehicles. The latter would therefore be more expensive, to further encourage the use of group vehicles.


Unfortunately, most players have too shallow knowledge and insight into gameplay to understand the design reasoning behind it.




That cost is of no consequence to classes is why everyone has AV and everyone is an engineer and infil etc. now. Certification cost in PS1 enforced variety in characters, because players were forced to make choices.

And with regards to power, if you get an air unit, you don't just get firepower or staying power. You get the entire package of speed, agility, altitude, terrain ignoring, etc. That's a trade-off few pilots are willing to admit to, so they can cling to just the firepower/endurance argument.

On top of that, solo units shouldn't be constantly available so players also have social interaction by grouping up in multi-crew vehicles. This is good for the social cohesion of the game and encourages formation of outfits and teamwork.




People like you, who only seem to focus on power, are absolutely clueless at what else "cost" is for.







Hence you don't seem to realise that that guy in that video before, was actually dedicated to AV. In PS2, everyone could have AV. In PS1, you actually relied on people with AV to be good at what they were doing, because you, nor your other buddies had AV power, at all. In PS2, you only don't have it when you chose to use something other than HA.



So no, you don't understand me, because my frame of reference and the game I want is completely different from the shallow and IMO somewhat dead-end road PS2 is taking by copying shallow gameplay and standards from individualistic oriented games.

[Dragonskin]

That's only half the story.


Resources, time limiters and cert cost are there to balance numerical presence in the field en enforce and a variation and scarcety of units.

They're not just a measure of power. They're all supposed to be trade-offs, which is why the current cert system of endless cert gain and having access to everything is pretty down right stupid, because you're not trading off anymore.

Killing for instance an air unit should ensure that air threat is gone for some time. Not because it's powerful, but so you can focus on another aspect of the fight. If you keep having to fend off the same guy(s) in the same air unit(s), when are you going to be able to fight those other units?

It's there to provide tactical meaning to a kill. Not just pure power. Since everyone has to be infantry, there's little reason to limit infantry aside from the more tactically impacting units, like MAXes which have very specific offensive and defensive advantages - AND - disadvantages.

Cost is there to ensure there would be sufficient infantry for infantry on infantry combat. It's there to ensure people don't all have personal transports, so they would choose to gun for others and would have need for transport vehicles and therefore choose to board them rather than hop in their own, solo, non-transport, combat vehicles. The latter would therefore be more expensive, to further encourage the use of group vehicles.


Unfortunately, most players have too shallow knowledge and insight into gameplay to understand the design reasoning behind it.

That cost is of no consequence to classes is why everyone has AV and everyone is an engineer and infil etc. now. Certification cost in PS1 enforced variety in characters, because players were forced to make choices.

And with regards to power, if you get an air unit, you don't just get firepower or staying power. You get the entire package of speed, agility, altitude, terrain ignoring, etc. That's a trade-off few pilots are willing to admit to, so they can cling to just the firepower/endurance argument.


You are trading off what you can do with a particular unit at that point in time by pulling a unit for infantry, anti-armor or air. The resources need to be more scarce. Right now with certs dumped in I can pull a scythe.. hell even a sunderer which I believe is the most exspensive... almost anytime our outfit needs one unless my vehicle was just killed. I didn't mean the resources and cool down where JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE POWERFUL.. but that is a portion of the reason.

On top of that, solo units shouldn't be constantly available so players also have social interaction by grouping up in multi-crew vehicles. This is good for the social cohesion of the game and encourages formation of outfits and teamwork.

I don't believe this last part is actually directed at me.. I've always said I am in a large outfit on a high population server.. so social interaction is what I am after, but you also have to have things for lone wolves.. things for soloers to be able to do. Some people only want to be tankers and they play solo.. so they have lightnings that are low cost and solo friendly to operate. SOE straight up stated that is why the current costs are the way they are for single person vehicles. They want those soloers being able to do what they want, when they want to.

People like you, who only seem to focus on power, are absolutely clueless at what else "cost" is for.

Again, I do know what the cost is for.. next time I will pull out a dictonary for you so that I can cover all possible angles of an arguement before you try to start poking at me for being "clueless"

Hence you don't seem to realise that that guy in that video before, was actually dedicated to AV. In PS2, everyone could have AV. In PS1, you actually relied on people with AV to be good at what they were doing, because you, nor your other buddies had AV power, at all. In PS2, you only don't have it when you chose to use something other than HA.



So no, you don't understand me, because my frame of reference and the game I want is completely different from the shallow and IMO somewhat dead-end road PS2 is taking by copying shallow gameplay and standards from individualistic oriented games.

Not sure what all that was about really haha. I already stated I didn't play PS1.. so yea.. not going to get a lot of referrences to mechanics in that game.. which I already admitted.. but this isn't PS1.. so that doesn't really matter unless you are living in the past and trying to make PS2 a PS1 clone.. which is clearly not what SOE wants to do because they want more than a handful of people playing and paying for virtual items. So PS2 is not an exact PS1 clone with a new engine.. it's going to be different.

[AThreatToYou]

My solution to this is not to remove HE, but to increase the rate at which damage tapers off in its AOE. Maybe give it the same 1HK radius as a HEAT round, but keep a much larger AOE than HEAT. Maybe. That sounds fair.

On the other side of this issue, I believe infantry need EMP grenades like in PlanetSide 1, maybe even EMP missile launchers. MAX anti-vehicle projectiles should move faster and MAXes should be able to zoom. I think the result of these things would result in less VehicleSide 2.

[Dragonskin]

My solution to this is not to remove HE, but to increase the rate at which damage tapers off in its AOE. Maybe give it the same 1HK radius as a HEAT round, but keep a much larger AOE than HEAT. Maybe. That sounds fair.

On the other side of this issue, I believe infantry need EMP grenades like in PlanetSide 1, maybe even EMP missile launchers. MAX anti-vehicle projectiles should move faster and MAXes should be able to zoom. I think the result of these things would result in less VehicleSide 2.

MAXes seem kinda underpowered to me in general outside of dual bursters. Seems like SOE only really wants them to be a mobile AA threat. That's the only reason I haven't put more certs into MAX myself.

[CasualCat]

They just need to decrease the anti armor damage of the HE rounds. You don't lose enough AP damage as a tradeoff right now, and there's little reason NOT to go with HE rounds.

This.

Infantry are a far greater threat to AP tanks than Armor is to HE tanks.

[Mathematics]

I think it's time they get rid of this. It's way, way to easy to farm infantry with these things; no effort is really required. I personally find it boring as there's no challenge, but I feel compelled to do it since the certs come pouring in and I see tons of other people doing it probably for the same reason.

Considering there's really no restrictions on vehicles in this game, it's time for a change. Newbies don't want to play because some of them (at least the ones I talked to) felt like cannon fodder and didn't have fun when they came here looking for some type of FPS game where they can at least shoot their infantry guns and not get molested the instant they leave the spawn room.

What are your pilots doing if not providing air cover?

[Whiteagle]

My solution to this is not to remove HE, but to increase the rate at which damage tapers off in its AOE. Maybe give it the same 1HK radius as a HEAT round, but keep a much larger AOE than HEAT. Maybe. That sounds fair.
Eh, I don't know...
I would agree with you... if this wasn't the same idea I had for balancing Lightning HE Rocket-pods against the HE Python...
I would instead go for the Anti-Armor damage reduction, just to make AP tanks the clear top of the Tank Food chain while putting them at the bottom of the Vehicle-vs-Infantry hierarchy.

On the other side of this issue, I believe infantry need EMP grenades like in PlanetSide 1, maybe even EMP missile launchers. MAX anti-vehicle projectiles should move faster and MAXes should be able to zoom. I think the result of these things would result in less VehicleSide 2.
Well Infiltrators have EMP 'nades, but from what I hear they are rather weak at the moment...
...Certainly wouldn't mind an EMP Rocket Launcher though, it would be an awesome utility for Heavies to take down Infantry Shields, Radar, and Vehicle movement at the cost of any real damage.

While I agree that MAXes need a better anti-vehicle option (The Pounder is a especially joke, you're better off using it against INFANTRY then a tank), I don't know how practical it would be to implement a zoom function...

After all, MAXes use the "alternate fire" button to operate their left arm-mounted weapon...

...Unless...
...Unless there was a "Power Brace" option for one Arm's weapon slot that gave MAXes an optic AND allowed them to equip a larger weapon to their other limb!


So Terran MAXes could carry around the Needler like the old MCG, NC could lug a HUGEASS rail-gun, and the Vanu could have some sort of Plasma cannon thingy at the cost of a secondary weapon and maybe some movement speed...

...They could also get Rocket Pods or Lock-on Missile Launchers as single arm weapons well....

[Figment]

You are trading off what you can do with a particular unit at that point in time by pulling a unit for infantry, anti-armor or air.

It's a very temporary trade-off that holds little weight, so it's not really a big deal. If I don't need jetpacks now, but I could possibly use them in half a minute, eh. Just spawnbeacon, /suicide, spawn in light assault...

The system is very abusable, I'm not confronted with my own choices in the long term.

See, if I couldn't ever use light assault, I'd be forced to be creative with my alternate options. I'm not stimulated to do anything but take the easy way out in PS2. :/ If you catch my drift. In PS1, you choose who you are and what you can do and combined those things to make your sum larger than the separate parts.

That felt good.

It didn't feel good when you could just combine anything with everything or always go for the default best options. Not making due with what you have in more than one life is going to make this game very predictable in the long run.

Everyone will be the same.

Not per encounter, but over the set of encounters, there won't be differences. That will just get worse as time passes and people have their personal fave things already and start to get the extras.

The resources need to be more scarce. Right now with certs dumped in I can pull a scythe.. hell even a sunderer which I believe is the most exspensive... almost anytime our outfit needs one unless my vehicle was just killed. I didn't mean the resources and cool down where JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE POWERFUL.. but that is a portion of the reason.

They started with 5000 resource limit, brought it down to 2000, 750, and still play around with it... It's an extremely complex puzzle with hundreds of variables.

In all honesty I never have trusted them to get it right, certainly not now. Unfortunately, a lot of players don't seem to understand just how important it is to have numerical balance and variety in game play.

I don't believe this last part is actually directed at me.. I've always said I am in a large outfit on a high population server.. so social interaction is what I am after, but you also have to have things for lone wolves.. things for soloers to be able to do. Some people only want to be tankers and they play solo.. so they have lightnings that are low cost and solo friendly to operate. SOE straight up stated that is why the current costs are the way they are for single person vehicles. They want those soloers being able to do what they want, when they want to.

The rotten thing is they do that with the powerful tools, while making the weaker units gasp for air in that environment of powerful solists. And they grab MBTs to solo mostly, not Lightnings... If it was just Lightnings (specially not too powerful ones), fair enough.

The weaker units should be flexible and limited over time. The larger units should be limited in their niches in more restrictive way. It's currently exactly the other way around.

Again, I do know what the cost is for.. next time I will pull out a dictonary for you so that I can cover all possible angles of an arguement before you try to start poking at me for being "clueless"

Well you don't have the complete frame of reference and you do bagatalise the concept of cost balance. Especially the manpower resource is something you greatly underestimate. I didn't quite say clueless, I said ignorant. Ignorant can be outside your own fault: you need to have heard of something or have experience for that. Clueless is simply never being able to get it. IMO.

Not sure what all that was about really haha. I already stated I didn't play PS1.. so yea.. not going to get a lot of referrences to mechanics in that game.. which I already admitted.. but this isn't PS1.. so that doesn't really matter unless you are living in the past and trying to make PS2 a PS1 clone.. which is clearly not what SOE wants to do because they want more than a handful of people playing and paying for virtual items. So PS2 is not an exact PS1 clone with a new engine.. it's going to be different.

It matters a lot.

And no, it's not about living in the past or wanting a PS1 clone.


It's about retaining systems that no other game other than PS1 got right for a MMO of this type. It's about evolving from PS1, instead of taking one step forward in scale and taking 20 steps back in mechanics and design choices, because mini-games like BF3 or CoD do some things and that's supposedly modern (retaining 1990s systems is apparently modern).




And please explain what you mean by "only a handful of people playing", because that does sound clueless. Marketing and hardware availability (awareness) determines how many people try it, not the mechanics. Mechanics and content determine if people KEEP playing AFTER they started playing. You can't compare PS1 and PS2 in terms of players and then blame mechanics.

There's a big difference between a 2003 launchdate and a 2012 launchdate in terms of player base pick up... And yeah. WoW launched in late 2004, with lesser pc demands and a much better marketing plan. Just the moment that SOE decided to fully focus on EQII after failed content expansions for PS1 (they failed because they did what PS2 does now with regular units: overly dominant game play by specific units).