Metagame - slowing the zerg

[Rahabib]

Right now the game feels a lot like wack-a-mole. You cap, they recap. Once you login, you know everything you fought for in the last 20 minutes is gone anyway - so there really is no metagame at all.

The other issue is the zerg. Numbers = win. This makes it difficult to defend since you have to split up your defense forces among different out posts.

So the issue with the metagame is two fold - defense should be much more formidable so that when you take an outpost it means something. it should not be impossible, but it should not be inevitable either. There are a few minor things that could help (the operative word is help, not solve!).

1) slow the sunderer spawn timer by 25%. This makes it so that the defense in the base spawn more often than the offense yet not making offense impossible. To make up for the the loss in spawn frequency points, sunderers get 5xp per spawn instead of 2xp.

2) taking a base requires more than numbers - it takes more coordination. Now more than ever, just having numbers does not mean you will take the base - although numbers will help. It means that you must use the right forces.

3) vehicle zergs. make it so that vehicles cost more resources the further away from the warp gate. Tech labs minimize this. This makes it so that pushing deep into enemy territory doesnt mean you just roll into town with a giant column of tanks spawned at the outpost just next door. This also means that the defense can push back more.

honestly, I feel that locks should be very rare making it much more of an accomplishment than it is. Also it should a bigger accomplishment to take an outpost knowing it wont fall the minute you drive out of town.

[Ghoest9]

Your solutions are the worst solutions ever.


Basically they are the same sort of bad solutions that people like you suggest for every group dynamic problem in every game.


You cant fix these sort of problems with timers. All that results in the same activity and same problem but with an added level of tedious meta game supply management.

If you want to change the way a game is played you have to do it by changing motivations and rewards.

[Rahabib]

Your solutions are the worst solutions ever.

Basically they are the same sort of bad solutions that people like you suggest for every group dynamic problem in every game.

You cant fix these sort of problems with timers. All that results in the same activity and same problem but with an added level of tedious meta game supply management.

If you want to change the way a game is played you have to do it by changing motivations and rewards.

25% slower isn't tedious. its maybe an extra 2-5 seconds. Motivations are difficult when you are spread out, so no matter how motivated you are, you are still going to lose.

but thanks anyway.

[SpottyGekko]

The zerg will go wherever they can get the most cert points. Capturing (and immediately abandoning) bases and outposts is the most effective way of getting points, by far.

Until that changes, whack-a-mole will be the flavour of the day.

[UrMom]

Another issue i've noticed the last few nights (TR, Jaegar) is the zerg will always go where the smallest resistance is. What i mean by that is if a faction is on Indar and the populations aren't in favor of that population they all move to whatever continent has their majority. so by the end of the night, one faction is on each continent with everything capped. For the last week Jaegar has been 9 times out of 10 TR Indar, VS Esamir, NC Amerish. At any given time the pop on each will be like 50% or more for each faction.

This leads to even bigger zergs with no defense against them to stop or force them to spread out. I wish they would add some sort of population control so the populations would be evenly spread across all three continents.

[Crator]

Addition of more continents with true continental locking along with removal of 3 empire footholds and addition of empire home continents will change this drastically.

[bpostal]

...If you want to change the way a game is played you have to do it by changing motivations and rewards.
Such as?


Personally I don't think we'll be able to involve the zerg at all in the metagame until they've unlocked everything and have stopped worrying about certs. No amount of change is going to change the mindset of a group who will fight for hours to take a tech plant, immediately leave and not bother to come back 10 min later when an opposing squad is flipping the point. They'd rather bitch about how they've suddenly lost the ability to pull tech and spend another hour assaulting the same tech plant.

[Rahabib]

the issue isnt necessarily splitting up the zerg, its stopping the zerg, or at least slowing it down. With the hex system (which isnt going away) you have to consider defending multiple locations where the bulk of the zerg stays together - meaning you will always be out numbered no matter how motivated your alamo stand is.

its not necessarily anything to do with certs, its stopping multiple fronts. Right now, the team with the higher population on the continent will win. With defense considerations, you can hold locations easier.

Motivation via certs isnt an issue IMO. I choose to defend as it gets me the biggest certs anyway. But it does suck knowing that all you are doing is slowing it down as they will take the base at some point.

[Oroshi]

I would make a few XP Changes, and a few other changes would cause people to think a bit more

Make the population bonus Continental, and larger than they are now. Why go to a place where you have 5% pop and have no bonus to be there, might as well stay where you have high pop, like 50% and still get a small population bonus, due to global pop.

Increase the Defense bonus, and/or make it a different color, works wonders for people, seeing extra numbers. It would be more like what did you mean I got 100xp + 25xp Defense bonus, because right now its 115xp [+15%], does not look as good. It is also too easy to miss with any sort of booster or subscription bonus.

Then I would look at bases, and make them so there is several ways of attacking them:


Meat Grinder - Yes you are in the zerg so your can bang you head against the door till it falls down.

Tactical Approach - Some smaller objectives that takes small sized teams with some co-ordination to pull off, great for squad play or small outfit, allowing them to feel part of the battle. These objectives would decrease or increase the time it takes to cap a base. Like hacking a router terminal, reinforcing capping node system

Strategic Approach - Large scale objectives that needs multiple squads to pull off, can be made partly from tactical approaches, and some other meta level tactics. this is aimed at large outfits, and or platoons. Could over ride a cap, or make a bases impossible while these objectives are held, or carried out.


Add this to some Outfit level benefits, this is meant to be a team game, and there is very little incentive to join an Outfit, people in coordinated Outfits, will not be zerging, and will be able to handle harder problems.

Benefits need not be very major, just enough to give outfit play the edge over Zerg play.

Mechanized Outfit Bonus: Being able to pull Sunderers at any vehicle terminal maybe limit them to x per time period 10 per 24 hours, and have access to 2nd and 3rd tier AMS. (2nd Tier Squad only AMS, 3rd Tier Platoon Only AMS) Revert AMS back to tank only terminals.

Armored Outfit Bonus: Being able to pull X number of MBTs from any vehicle terminal, regardless if there is a connecting tech plant or not, again limiting it to a number per time period. Allows them to replace the odd lost MBT, or start an armored surprise attack from a unique line off attack.

Air Cav Outfit Bonus: Being able to pull a Galaxy at any air terminal, again limiting to to x per time period, reduces their grounded time, and lets them play their outfit role. Give access to a Galaxy AMS, that is squad only.

Air Outfit: Not sure on this one right now.

These vehicles would be spawned squad locked, and no option to change that, also the ability to do so could be limited in the outfit rank options.

The idea would be to cause people to say wow how did they pull a Magrider here, and see the outfit name on it, would cause more interest. More people in a outfit, less people zerging, unless it was a zergfit.

[Ghoest9]

We(we as in the general population) play the game as we do because it favors the 2 best ways to earn cert points(for infantry.)

1 Giant meat grinder at big bases with choke points.

2 Speed capping empty bases.

Those the the 2 best(or at least most obvious) ways for most players to earn certs - so its not surprising that those 2 activities dominate the game.

[GLaDOS]

Addition of more continents with true continental locking along with removal of 3 empire footholds and addition of empire home continents will change this drastically.

This. The current metagame is a bit flawed, but its really just a placeholder. It's not really worth it to spend time trying to fix it, yet.

[RSphil]

bases need lock out timers. large bases a long timer, small bases shorter.
sunderer spawn has nothing to do with it. if people listen and take out the sundy, problem solved. zerg only wins if there are un organized players are at the base.

id like to see the shields on the outer walls of bases allow no enemy at all. atm letting enemy troops through them is stupid to me. LA troops bouncing the walls to disable shields is more logical and tactical.
the new design on the tech plant i think is stupid having shield gens outside the base. it is a ridicules design and no armed forces in the universe would ever do such a thing.

im sure things will get better soon. specially when they add more continents to fight over.

[Wahooo]

So many things could change. Having s sundy able to spawn at all checkpoints would be fine if ONLY people who were dedicated to driving them and had to PS1 style give up something else to cert into it. But with everyone having the ability to pull them it is excessive to be able to pull them everywhere. It removes strategy to AMSs and removes the threat of losing them because they are able to be spammed all over the map... to the point TK'ing sundys is an actual problem at MANY bases.

XP / Cert gain from taking bases with no fight. Taking checkpoints and towers should be for strategic reasons. Right now the Crown and the few points round it are the only bases that are taken and held on to for strategic reasons.

Horrid base design with the spawn rooms camp-able by vehicles or no clear patch from spawn to point. Tech plant changes just make this worse. Plus the tug-o-war push pull capture mechanic there simply becomes a point where it is better to just give up a base than continue to fight for it. That sucks for both sides.

[Rahabib]

I think many of you are failing to understand the issue I am trying to address - its not motivation its the fact that you are spread out over many bases to defend and out numbered. It doesnt matter how motivated a player is, right now if you are out numbered you will lose.

Some of the issues some of you hit upon:
1- kill the sunderer you stop the spawn flow. Great, but for some bases this isnt really possible. Multiple sunderers also make this not the only solution. For small advances this works great - but against the zerg with multiple sunderers and fighting through the front lines to get to the sunderers it isnt going to work. Otherwise, it would be extremely difficult for attackers which isnt the case.
2- base design. Ok, and they are doing that, but I doubt we are going to see spawn rooms and shields etc. enough of a change to give the defense a chance to hold. This is really the only thing people brought up that makes any sense to stopping a zerg. My suggestion is really what can we do without just scrapping bases and starting over.
3- more continents. I dont see what this has to deal with anything. Any continent no matter how small the populations are, the concept will be the same, larger forces will win most of the time.

Again, its about giving the defense more spawns to artificially match the opposing force.

[Suitepee]

Personally I don't think we'll be able to involve the zerg at all in the metagame until they've unlocked everything and have stopped worrying about certs. No amount of change is going to change the mindset of a group who will fight for hours to take a tech plant, immediately leave and not bother to come back 10 min later when an opposing squad is flipping the point. They'd rather bitch about how they've suddenly lost the ability to pull tech and spend another hour assaulting the same tech plant.

Pretty much this, I'm afraid. The generally bad mindset is that "offense is better than defense", and people want those 1/2/4 certs for capturing. (I know I've drop-podded on major bases just to grab a quick 4 certs on occasion)
Hopefully one day there'll be a proper incentive to defend bases for longer periods of time more consistently embedded into the PS2 player's mindset.

[SpottyGekko]

More continents may alleviate the "faction concentration" problem. With only 3 continents currently, it's almost inevitable that each faction will concentrate on only 1 continent at a time.

If the continents increase, it will dilute the current force concentrations, because the same amount of people will then have to spread themselves further. Instead of 1 blob of zerg circulating on a single continent, they will probably move from continent to continent. But that will open up huge swathes of territory for smaller group action.

[Miffy]

The problem isn't the zerg, they're fun but the problem is there are never any stalemates like Planetside because of the hex system. In Planetside you'd meet base to base and constantly have giant battle after giant battle. In Planetside 2 the Hex system just means you bail on defending a base and just attack somewhere else.

Make it linear and then people have to defend.

[Rahabib]

The problem isn't the zerg, they're fun but the problem is there are never any stalemates like Planetside because of the hex system. In Planetside you'd meet base to base and constantly have giant battle after giant battle. In Planetside 2 the Hex system just means you bail on defending a base and just attack somewhere else.

Make it linear and then people have to defend.

Thanks. You highlighted real problem - there are no stalemates. If you are out numbered you will lose. I would love to see it take longer to capture a base and when you do, you dont have to worry about it being taken back 10 minutes later. When they can bail and go anywhere they want, there's too many avenues to have to defend, making holding ground impossible. But lets be honest - lattice isnt coming back, so we have to find a way for the hex to work.

I have no problem with the zerg, I just want it so that they are not unstoppable.

[Whiteagle]

Well hopefully more Continents will alleviate the ambiguous approches avalible to the Zerg by bottle-necking them at the Warpgates, creating a "Meta-lattice" that connects Continent-to-Continent instead of Base-to-Base.

[Fujilives]

The core problem I see is with the "Take base / Abandon base / Lose base immediately" scenario we see right now. This is what drove me to eventually leave Planetside 1, as every victory felt incredibly small.


I propose the following four changes:

1) After a major base is captured (not the outlying mini-bases) put a 30 minute lock on small (500 xp) bases, and a 1-hour lock on large (1000 xp) bases. This would let forward momentum actually mean something other than ZERG ZERG ZERG and allow for strategies other than "roll in with 3000 tanks/birds" (it wouldn't eliminate it, but with defensive incentives we might even see infantry make an impact in 'the war').

2) After the capture-protection timer is exhausted, I think the game should begin ramping up experience points obtainable by taking a base, for example, if a base is captured immediately after it becomes unlocked, it's worth 1000 xp (same as it is now). If it's captured 3 days later, it's worth 3000 xp. I'd love to see how this would result in added incentive to push against the TR at the Crown, but there have been times where they hold it for days on end and committing the suicide that is climbing up the hill gets to be ridiculous. If that incentive to take it over grew

3) Defensive XP should be tied to a similar concept, where every 30 minutes you get a % increase in xp for kills at that base. I.E. if you held the base for 30 minutes past the point of unlock, you'd get 125% xp per kill, 60 minutes: 150% xp, 90 minutes: 175% xp, 120 minutes: 200% xp (200% is a decent place to cap it) - this would add incentive for long-term defenses.

4) Finally, if a base your faction owns is in "limbo", where your faction does not have more than 50% control anymore, I believe you should be rewarded 50% of the original capture bonus if you manage to reclaim and defend it. In Example - if you are NS and you lose half of your blue faction control bar at a place that originally awarded you 500 xp, you'll gain 250 xp for fully-recapping that base with a 100% blue bar. 1000 point original bonus bases would award 500, etc.

[AThreatToYou]

Addition of more continents with true continental locking along with removal of 3 empire footholds and addition of empire home continents will change this drastically.

Yep.

I'm not sure how else to solve this. Going back and forth over a base for points is awesome because it gets you more points. Doing something else gets you less points, so it's boring.
As soon as you cap a base to push it out, the zerg dissolves and it's really hard to farm until the zerg reforms, and then you have to find the zerg. That sucks! It's boring.

The biggest problem with the game right now is player behavior patterns caused by flaws in the game itself.

[Crator]

Yep.

I'm not sure how else to solve this. Going back and forth over a base for points is awesome because it gets you more points. Doing something else gets you less points, so it's boring.
As soon as you cap a base to push it out, the zerg dissolves and it's really hard to farm until the zerg reforms, and then you have to find the zerg. That sucks! It's boring.

The biggest problem with the game right now is player behavior patterns caused by flaws in the game itself.

Once you get leaders that wish to play the global meta-game and you put in a few more conts that connect to other empire's home conts that give a nice benefit if owned, you will see players start to focus more.

[Seafort]

We just have the barebones now. SOE have done a disservice to themselves and their fans as many gamers will play PS2 and think, "is this it?", and quit after a few weeks/months.

The game should have been delayed till 2013 but money rules all. It will be their undoing.

Their only advantage is that it's F2P and some people may come back when it finally has a metagame and not this massive team deathmatch we have now.

Lets hope SOE get their heads out of their collective arses and add some depth to the game sooner rather than later.