Liberators too strong?

[Fear The Amish]

So i have had some bad experiences lately with Liberators and just checking if im the only one. To preface this i do roll with an outfit and yes we will have 4-5 dual bursters providing air cover... So how can a lib that is way outside of firing range of a max either Vertical or horizantal (1-2 hex's away but points noise up or to the side so gunner can fire into the base) so DAMNED effective? we took gravel pass last night and started taking some air fire so grabed some max's and positioned them all over they cleared the ESF's no problem but the LIBS! there was 2 that were at max cieling just circling raining the pain down which we could scare off for long enough for them to repair and come back. but couldn't kill them so to scare them off we would lose 2-3 infantry every time. but the WORST was there was a few hovering over ZURVAN! a hex away and would just raise the nose or roll to the side and they would fire in from there completely out of range. So at this point we grabed a few A2A scythes which though they fired a full load of missles only got 2 of them but in the proccess got shot down by the 6-7 other liberators.

[Nolerhn]

So i have had some bad experiences lately with Liberators and just checking if im the only one. To preface this i do roll with an outfit and yes we will have 4-5 dual bursters providing air cover... So how can a lib that is way outside of firing range of a max either Vertical or horizantal (1-2 hex's away but points noise up or to the side so gunner can fire into the base) so DAMNED effective? we took gravel pass last night and started taking some air fire so grabed some max's and positioned them all over they cleared the ESF's no problem but the LIBS! there was 2 that were at max cieling just circling raining the pain down which we could scare off for long enough for them to repair and come back. but couldn't kill them so to scare them off we would lose 2-3 infantry every time. but the WORST was there was a few hovering over ZURVAN! a hex away and would just raise the nose or roll to the side and they would fire in from there completely out of range. So at this point we grabed a few A2A scythes which though they fired a full load of missles only got 2 of them but in the proccess got shot down by the 6-7 other liberators.
To me this is a situation where you rally people in your empire to clear the skies. Libs have tons of armor, and I'd like to see that not change, but some people rallying against a very specific threat can have surprising successes.

How many A2A scythes did a your outfit field?

[Fear The Amish]

5-10 but my problem is that the Liberators are now equally good at Air 2 Air and Air 2 Ground without changing anything. Were as any other vehicle or infantry in the game is only useful against one. All they have to do is roll to the side and that Dalton is amazing at smacking down an ESF attempting to intercept. You can't go above them and drop on them were they are weak because they sit at cieling. You cant approach from rear or sides because of location of the tail gun turret. you DO NOT! want to approach from bottom or front because they wwill just eat you.

[Whiteagle]

Yeah, this might be a symptom of weak G2A AA...

[Fear The Amish]

we actually did clear them out... by grabing dalton lib's and doing the same thing....

[Whiteagle]

we actually did clear them out... by grabing dalton lib's and doing the same thing....
Ok yeah, if they are bad enough flyers that you can take them out with Cannon fire, then it is DEFININTLY a symptom of weak G2A AA...

[Fear The Amish]

Ok yeah, if they are bad enough flyers that you can take them out with Cannon fire, then it is DEFININTLY a symptom of weak G2A AA...

lol actually no we had to get to ceiling then roll to the side and shoot them with a Dalton then turn so the tail gunner could finish like they were doing to our scythes.

[GreatMazinkaise]

How are they getting kills at the flight ceiling? Infantry don't render that far up in my experience (unless maybe you're in really sparsely populated fights).

Libs are only strong when they've got air superiority and ground AA is sparse. Skyguards are still fairly bad, but those invisible surprise MAX nests remain incredibly nasty.

[Fear The Amish]

the Dalton's bomb is server side no need for "render"

[Fear The Amish]

Liberators too strong? Duh.

The top ten of the Leadership board is filled with Lib whores.

more looking for what you could do to change there effect

[GreatMazinkaise]

the Dalton's bomb is server side no need for "render"

I guess that makes the difference then... we (and most others) use Daltons because the Zephyr is much better for farming infantry - you can't score with a Zephyr without targets rendering.

[NoXousX]

The problem is SOE made libs massive slow flying protection warriors that deal a lot of damage. Why is that an issue?

1) The majority of the time libs are either eating people alive, or being eaten alive.
2) That vast (and I mean vast) majority of lib pilots don't have the skill to determine whether or not they can be sucessful defensively when they get attacked by enemy air.
3) In low population scenarios they are unstoppable.
4) In high population scenarios (assuming people actually pull AA), they spend all their time getting flak sniped at a distance.

NoX's solution?
Libs need to be faster and more maneuverable with significantly less health.


Having said that consider the following:
If you put a lib in the hands of a great pilot with a great gunner (for example ScourgeOftheServer/Twf), this lib can single-handedly turn the tides of battles. For any other pilot they are just another target in the sky... an annoyance.

The learning curve is steep, and it's frustrating on both ends.

[NoXousX]

the Dalton's bomb is server side no need for "render"

Show me a video of this, and I'll believe it.

[boogy]

Yes Liberators are too strong. Doesn't take a genius to figure that one out.
There are plenty grey areas of balance in this game. Liberators being too strong(offensively) is not one of them.

The damage of their weapons are pure OP ridiculous. The area of effect, splash damage, or whatever crap you call it is out of line. I was a MAX with flack level 3 armor, halfway in a building and got killed by that BS. The feeling a player gets when that happens is akin to being shot through the wall by a hacker. It's frustrating, not fun, enough to make you quit.

[Ghoest9]

Libs should cost more.

[Sunrock]

So i have had some bad experiences lately with Liberators and just checking if im the only one. To preface this i do roll with an outfit and yes we will have 4-5 dual bursters providing air cover... So how can a lib that is way outside of firing range of a max either Vertical or horizantal (1-2 hex's away but points noise up or to the side so gunner can fire into the base) so DAMNED effective? we took gravel pass last night and started taking some air fire so grabed some max's and positioned them all over they cleared the ESF's no problem but the LIBS! there was 2 that were at max cieling just circling raining the pain down which we could scare off for long enough for them to repair and come back. but couldn't kill them so to scare them off we would lose 2-3 infantry every time. but the WORST was there was a few hovering over ZURVAN! a hex away and would just raise the nose or roll to the side and they would fire in from there completely out of range. So at this point we grabed a few A2A scythes which though they fired a full load of missles only got 2 of them but in the proccess got shot down by the 6-7 other liberators.

I'm not sure if the distances you describe is accurate. I been running liberators allot lately so I think I have some experience with them. The thing is that infantry does not render until around 300-350 meters. The distance between two bases on any continent is at it's shortest point max 500 meters, more commonly it's about 600-700 meters. The only thing that renders at 700-800 meters are vehicles. And no you can not kill anything in this game that have not rendered for you.

Also burster maxes Vs Liberators. 4-5 burster maxes should be able to take care of a liberator that is within infantry render distance. If they can't they god damn have to learn to aim.

But yes it can be hard to kill a Libirator that has air speed frame and after burners. I have max air speed and 2 spec into afterburners and I can accelerate from 0 to 225 in 2 sec, making me as faster then a reaver but able to take allot more damage. This making me able to brake off easily when I start to get to low HP.

[Sunrock]

Yes Liberators are too strong. Doesn't take a genius to figure that one out.
There are plenty grey areas of balance in this game. Liberators being too strong(offensively) is not one of them.

The damage of their weapons are pure OP ridiculous. The area of effect, splash damage, or whatever crap you call it is out of line. I was a MAX with flack level 3 armor, halfway in a building and got killed by that BS. The feeling a player gets when that happens is akin to being shot through the wall by a hacker. It's frustrating, not fun, enough to make you quit.

Most have been a very small building then. The splash damage is as effecting as it is on the MBT HE rounds on the dalton. And about the same as the HEAT on the zepher.

PS: Stay away from any doors next time

[Sunrock]

the Dalton's bomb is server side no need for "render"

That is 100% bull shit. Only way for that to happen is to run some sort of 3rd party hack program.

[boogy]

Most have been a very small building then. The splash damage is as effecting as it is on the MBT HE rounds on the dalton. And about the same as the HEAT on the zepher.

Yes splash damage is too much in general. It was a small building. Half or more than half the buildings in this game are small. Point is, a building, any size, should provide cover. Part of infantry gameplay is cover. Cover doesn't exist in this game. Nothing works as cover in this game. All those crappy crates and barrels are useless. Those platforms are useless. Trees are useless. Rocks clusters are useless. Infantry have no cover device that he can duck in and out of against vehicles, yet a freakin magrider, a freakin tank, a freakin esf, can duck, weave, and bob for cover against infantry fire and rockets.

Now the Liberator takes the cake. It's an impregnable shit in the air with nothing obstructing you from him. If we actually had cover you could crouch under the doorway and fire back, but nope, nope, and nope..splash damage. You might as well add nukes in this game because the results would be the same as a couple libs bombing an outpost. As someone said earlier, during off hours, you know the remaining 22hours in the day, there is nothing you can do about a liberator. Air during off hours rollstomps.

[Timey]

Libs should cost more.

I don't think that increasing the cost would fix the problem at all. Competent pilots will be alive long enough to just be able to get a new one unless a lib would cost like 750 aero. Same goes for tanks and pretty much anything.

Not saying I don't agree they should cost more.

I'm thinking all heavy vehicles (mbt, lib, sundy, possibly gal) should have their timers increased a lot. Like 45min timer stock and maybe 20-30min if fully certed timer thing. Then It'd hurt if you lost one too soon..

edit: well, yeah, guess I kind of made a donkey out of myself there. Since resources basically = timer if you exhaust your resource pool :p but yeah, you get the point (maybe?)

[Qwan]

Yea I can feel the author of the thread on this one, with the lib raining hell down on infantry. But I do have to add that this is what they do, this is the purpose of this weapon, not to just sit up there and look pretty. Now if it can hit targets a hex away let the devs know and see if its a glitch or bug or even a hack. In my outfit we have flight class were we learn to dog fight and manuver and we have classes on how to set up your keys, this has become very handy and effective, maybe you should consider this.

[Mavvvy]

That is 100% bull shit. Only way for that to happen is to run some sort of 3rd party hack program.

Sure does make you wonder, been coming across similar anomalies lately myself.

[KaskaMatej]

5-10 but my problem is that the Liberators are now equally good at Air 2 Air and Air 2 Ground without changing anything. Were as any other vehicle or infantry in the game is only useful against on.

You seem to forget about ESF, which coincidently is Liberator' hard counter, which would be even better if ESF wouldn't be a counter to everything in the game. But that's a different story.

Liberator kills ground. It should be the best anti-ground aircraft in the game. It's slow and it isn't something I would call nimble in the air. It's big. It need a crew of two who communicate. I needs to have lots of armour or HP to be actually hitting ground, meaning not getting blown to smithereens by G2A AA before it is able to do so.

Liberator is the most balanced attack vehicle in the game right now, IMO.

[Storn]

So i have had some bad experiences lately with Liberators and just checking if im the only one. To preface this i do roll with an outfit and yes we will have 4-5 dual bursters providing air cover... So how can a lib that is way outside of firing range of a max either Vertical or horizantal (1-2 hex's away but points noise up or to the side so gunner can fire into the base) so DAMNED effective? we took gravel pass last night and started taking some air fire so grabed some max's and positioned them all over they cleared the ESF's no problem but the LIBS! there was 2 that were at max cieling just circling raining the pain down which we could scare off for long enough for them to repair and come back. but couldn't kill them so to scare them off we would lose 2-3 infantry every time. but the WORST was there was a few hovering over ZURVAN! a hex away and would just raise the nose or roll to the side and they would fire in from there completely out of range. So at this point we grabed a few A2A scythes which though they fired a full load of missles only got 2 of them but in the proccess got shot down by the 6-7 other liberators.

A lib at max altitude can not see infantry as they wont render but most times vehciles wont either; however, any rendered vehicle can be shot and if an infantry is near when the vehciles goes a kill will be given for the infantry as well. As a lib pilot I like to get down for the easy infantry and flash kills as they give good return on the xp. :evil: BTW Decimators hurt! :doh:

[Bear]

Solving the Liberator spamming problem is very simple. Make the Dalton a dedicated anti-armor platform with virtually no splash damage. Get rid of the Zephyr entirely. Liberators are supposed to be bombers not hovering artillery bases. Go back to the PS1 style of Liberator and force them to do actual bombing runs. Make the runs powerful but at least require them to fly over the base.

[HiroshiChugi]

Get rid of the Zephyr entirely.

are you crazy?!? D: :huh: :eek: :cry:
taht's my fav gun in the game :( keep it,just power it down slightly if anything.

[Fear The Amish]

alot of people keep saying well they don't render!! the dalton is SERVER side just like a gernade so you don't need to see them just know they are there and bomb...

[Beerbeer]

I think they're a bit much but...

I actually don't mind the damage just because I know it takes two people to dish it out, but I believe--like all vehicles--they should be rarer and fall inline with vehicle restrictions. Having so many of these around just obliterates everything.

Sony seemed to have overlooked the fact that by providing unlimited vehicle access to let people continuously access the play style they enjoy the most impinges on other people's ability to enjoy their play style.

[Sturmhardt]

I think Liberators are fine, ESFs are too strong against ground with their rocketpods.

It should be like this:

Liberators kill ground
ESF kill liberators
Ground deters liberators and ESF
ESF DO NOT kill ground, they only deter ground

So in my eyes Libs are fine, they need 3 people to operate and I can take a lib down with 3 AA Maxes, so that is fine.
ESF on the other hand are way overpowered given the fact that it's just one guy killing air AND ground alike.

[Sturmhardt]

What? If you have 3 dual burster Maxes aiming for that lib it's not gonna come near you, that's how it is.

[boogy]

Until bases and continents can be adjusted to accomodate them. I think the best solutions are one or a combination of the following:

1. Nerf Lib's weapons, reduce armor

2. Remove spash damage from game.

3. Make flak armor against air 100% not 50%. 50% was never going to work. That just means it will take a 1/4 second more for a Lib to farm infantry. 100% flak armor is a game changer, and we need a game changing tweak to fix this issue. 100% flak armor allows the counter to infantry be infantry or tank. If you want the counter to Lib to be an ESF then this is only fair game.

4. Make rocket launchers better effective against Libs vs. ESFs. The counter to ESFs at this moment is the AA Max. It's really effective. In fact I think ESFs need an armor buff. This is the perfect opportunity to BUFF the ESF flare ability and BUFF the hell out of the Ground to Air rockets. This will make GA rockets effective against Libs but and not ruin the ESF's survivability.

5. Increase tank top armor a lot.

These are just temp solutions. Band-aids. The long term we need bases, outposts, and continent flow to better fit both air and ground. I like the rule of thumb that says, out in the open is the domain of air and armor - bases are the domain of infantry - terrain dictates the emphasis and flow of where one begins, where one ends, and where they both meet.

[Suitepee]

If they ever increase the render distance for infantry spotting with air units, you'll see how strong liberators will get. Can't believe people actually WANT to see that happen.

Liberators too strong? No kidding they are, all air units are strong right now.

[ShadetheDruid]

I think the problem with Libs is the same problem with all the air; they aren't being forced to specialise like everyone else. That and the general vehicle problem of the resource system being broken.

Whether it's the Dalton/Zephyr or rocket pods, they can just pretty much just destroy anything on the ground regardless of what it is (arguably ESFs are worse, because they're one-person vehicles and still get a nose gun as well).

I'd love to see, at the very least, pods split into two different types (so as an ESF pilot, you could choose A2A missiles, AI pods or AV pods), and fix the Dalton and Zephyr so they actually have proper roles beyond "asplodes stuff that's on the ground".

As someone who recently just took up flying (in a Scythe) i'd love to be able to take a type of pod (even something that fired only one or two high damage rockets per reload) to specifically target ground vehicles (and use the nose gun on infantry, which is so much more rewarding when you manage it). But.. I just can't bring myself to buy rocket pods as they are now.

[Sunrock]

With so many Libs in the sky the max math to counter them gets silly. The real
counter to the Libs is in the game, Skyguards; they presently do not live up to
there name, so we have a Lib infestation. Fix Skyguards.

Well Libs with tank busters equipped is a good alternative too to take down other libs. Besides ESF with A2A missiles will take down libs with no problem either.
---------------------------------------------------------------

The thing is all this QQ about X vehicle is OP is happens because some arm chair general in some outfit decides now we all going to attack with magriders. And when that fails do to air attacks he then comes here and want to nerf every lib in the game. Because there are tactics that counter liberators.

Just get your ESF up in the air. And not just 2-3 of them. You need at least 10 of them to secure the air around an amp station or tech plant.

If you die to liberators it's because you lack air support. It's just that simple. Stop QQ'ing because you fail at understanding game mechanics.

[boogy]

I do agree air needs to be forced to specialize. The problem with the liberator is the concept behind it being an anti infantry vehicle. That right there is the fundamental flaw. Why is the most squishy and vulnerable thing in the game countered by the most toughest, unreachable, and powerful thing in the game? It's just wrong. It doesn't make sense. Until the concept of the lib changes, inf vs lib balance is screwed. Changing the concept of the galaxy as a mobile spawn point was one of the best decisions to come out of beta. I think we need the same type of rethink done to the liberator.

[Fear The Amish]

Well Libs with tank busters equipped is a good alternative too to take down other libs. Besides ESF with A2A missiles will take down libs with no problem either.
---------------------------------------------------------------

The thing is all this QQ about X vehicle is OP is happens because some arm chair general in some outfit decides now we all going to attack with magriders. And when that fails do to air attacks he then comes here and want to nerf every lib in the game. Because there are tactics that counter liberators.

Just get your ESF up in the air. And not just 2-3 of them. You need at least 10 of them to secure the air around an amp station or tech plant.

If you die to liberators it's because you lack air support. It's just that simple. Stop QQ'ing because you fail at understanding game mechanics.

did you actually read what was going on? we pulled an equal number of ESF's but because a lib can soak up 4-5 rockets easily and you have to actually lock them on the libs would cover each others tails and protect each other... so they shot down the ESF's

[Sunrock]

I do agree air needs to be forced to specialize. The problem with the liberator is the concept behind it being an anti infantry vehicle. That right there is the fundamental flaw. Why is the most squishy and vulnerable thing in the game countered by the most toughest, unreachable, and powerful thing in the game? It's just wrong. It doesn't make sense. Until the concept of the lib changes, inf vs lib balance is screwed. Changing the concept of the galaxy as a mobile spawn point was one of the best decisions to come out of beta. I think we need the same type of rethink done to the liberator.

If skyguards or buster maxes was the only option to stop Libirators I would agree with you. But as that is not the case your argument is mute.

Besides... Air is the best counter to air have been sad by higby 100 times way can't we just accept that and move on? Or is it that every one here suck at piloting so they need to lobby forward buffing AA?

[Sunrock]

did you actually read what was going on? we pulled an equal number of ESF's but because a lib can soak up 4-5 rockets easily and you have to actually lock them on the libs would cover each others tails and protect each other... so they shot down the ESF's

That has to do more about the players individual skill. You field because you where less skilled then your enemy in the case you describe.


PS: You can kill a liberator with 2 rockets too if you know what your doing. Libs have a soft spot like MBTs have. If you don't know where it is I wont give that info away. You have to figure that out by your self.

PPS: It's not the tail...

[boogy]

If skyguards or buster maxes was the only option to stop Libirators I would agree with you. But as that is not the case your argument is mute.

Besides... Air is the best counter to air have been sad by higby 100 times way can't we just accept that and move on? Or is it that every one here suck at piloting so they need to lobby forward buffing AA?

You are not considering the possibility that Higby's idea isn't working.

And in no way what you wrote makes my argument moot. It is completely unrelated to the point being made.

[Ghoest9]

Libs would be fine - if ESF were only effective against other air.

[Fear The Amish]

That has to do more about the players individual skill. You field because you where less skilled then your enemy in the case you describe.


PS: You can kill a liberator with 2 rockets too if you know what your doing. Libs have a soft spot like MBTs have. If you don't know where it is I wont give that info away. You have to figure that out by your self.

PPS: It's not the tail...

ummm video proof because ive fired rockets at those things at all angles... wait why am i arguing this tracking missles ALWAYS hit the rear because you know people try and fly away and it tracks to the rear.

AHH! i see after looking at your stats your a lib pilot trying to protect your farming tool.

[phungus]

If skyguards or buster maxes was the only option to stop Libirators I would agree with you. But as that is not the case your argument is mute.

Besides... Air is the best counter to air have been sad by higby 100 times way can't we just accept that and move on? Or is it that every one here suck at piloting so they need to lobby forward buffing AA?

YOu must be a very newbie liberator pilot. I hunt ESFs with my liberator, and so does anyone with any skill. Just because you're a shit player doesn't mean squat. Also you must not have any experience with taking down libs with an ESF, since you state an AA ESF is effective against libs, which isn't true, you need a nosegun and rocket pods to actually go after libs. Without ammo capacity upgrades an A2A ESF (with the A2A gun and A2A missiles) litterally doesn't have enough ammo to down a lib.

[james]

Heath is the problem with libs. They have to much, cut down the health, and reduce splash on the guns. Right now its basically an uber tank that flys

[AThreatToYou]

If somehow you let 6+ liberators get comfortable above your base, then you should be fucked.

The best way to kill a liberator is with a tank shell or with more liberators...

[Fear The Amish]

If somehow you let 6+ liberators get comfortable above your base, then you should be fucked.

The best way to kill a liberator is with a tank shell or with more liberators...

do you realize how outragious that statement is? the counter for X is X or something that can't even get its turret high enough to shoot X

[Electrofreak]

I don't even bother shooting AA at Liberators. Either they'll just retaliate by bombing me, or they'll coast off to repair, return in a few minutes, and then bomb me.

I save my G2A missiles for ESF as I've actually shot 1 or two down before and they actually fly away when locked.

I'd like to know my ratio of ESF kills to the number of G2A missiles I've fired. It'd be a depressing figure, I'm sure.

[boogy]

If skyguards or buster maxes was the only option to stop Libirators I would agree with you. But as that is not the case your argument is mute.

Besides... Air is the best counter to air have been sad by higby 100 times way can't we just accept that and move on? Or is it that every one here suck at piloting so they need to lobby forward buffing AA?

do you realize how outragious that statement is? the counter for X is X or something that can't even get its turret high enough to shoot X
The solution of countering air with air and tank is just proving the point that this game is no longer a first person shooter, but a vehicle game.
Furthermore, winning airspace with air, just means it's the other sides turn to get air spammed and farmed. There will always be one sides infantry that's being farmed and not having fun.

[AThreatToYou]

I think the real problem is MAX units can't effectively deal with liberators at all.

[Fear The Amish]

yeah i just kinda said fuck it last few nights and threw our platoon all in libs... not very fun but farmed alot of kills.

[Hamma]

Yea liberators went from being slightly useful in beta to just being extremely OP in release.

[Fear The Amish]

Yea liberators went from being slightly useful in beta to just being extremely OP in release.

i know hamma... i was just showing off my cool new decal on my Gal and you just haaaaddd to zephyr my ass. :cry:

[NewSith]

Liberators themselves are fine. You are talking about Liberators with Daltons and Zephyrs mounted.


Shredder doesn't make it OP. If Liberator main body gets a nerf the only thing that was fun for me to do will go. So think carefully what is really OP.



And, hell I wasted good amount of time and effort to get myself proper lib certs. If it gets nerfed now, for no reason, I'm friggin' suing you all. It is obviously a joke, but nevertheless, start seeing the global picture already. You don't nerf lightning armor, because Skyguard weapon is OP, correct?

[Fear The Amish]

Liberators themselves are fine. You are talking about Liberators with Daltons and Zephyrs mounted.


Shredder doesn't make it OP. If Liberator main body gets a nerf the only thing that was fun for me to do will go. So think carefully what is really OP.



And, hell I wasted good amount of time and effort to get myself proper lib certs. If it gets nerfed now, for no reason, I'm friggin' suing you all. It is obviously a joke, but nevertheless, start seeing the global picture already. You don't nerf lightning armor, because Skyguard weapon is OP, correct?

of course not because skygaurd is crud and needs a buff. You have to remember you base nerf/buffs NOT on somethings basic layout but what it will eventually become.

[NewSith]

of course not because skygaurd is crud and needs a buff. You have to remember you base nerf/buffs NOT on somethings basic layout but what it will eventually become.

Something I said on the official forums quite a while ago:

Feedback:

Lib is awesome right now, it totally feels like a BF3 chopper, that I so much like to fly, when used with Shredder.

Actual Concern:

It would seem that the Lib balance has gotten to the point where we actually have 2 Liberators (mostly due to certifications and vehicle enhancements):


A Bomber that goes deep into the sky and Dalton's the **** out of people.
A BF Helicopter-like vehicle (Libercopter) where you generally stay at mid-altitude and always move around Shreddering people.


The concern is that if you do changes to one type of Liberator, the other one suffers. Actually there is a chain of balance between them, with Libercopter being inferior and Bomber Lib being superior. If you make Libercopter balanced you get an OP Bomber. If you balance the bomber, you get an UP Libercopter.

I urge devs to bear that in mind if they ever decide to do changes to the core Liberator (as in its armor stats, etc), they should also reevaluate the weapons.

On a note totally unrelated - A30 Walker Tailgun is a plain downgrade atm.

[Dragonskin]

Dual burster maxs are under rated it seems. Really interested to know what servers you are on where dual burster maxs don't create no-fly zones all the time.

On Mattherson a lot of people have dual burster maxs. I don't care how good you are.. on nights with lots of maxs out you either don't go to heavy contested areas or you don't fly because eventually you will fly over some area with 2 maxs that all of a sudden eat you. Maxs are rarely ever alone.. if there is one there is usually more somewhere close by with engies feeding them ammo like candy for easy certs.

Skyguards might need a buff, but honestly even if they were buffed I doubt people will use them over the current dual burster maxs. Hell I purposely bought the left arm this weekend because they are so easy to kill with... didn't touch the skyguard turret.. no reason to buy it unless maxs become useless.

[Fear The Amish]

2 maxs are lunch to a dalton lib most max's just don't fire remember we are talking about armada's of 6-8 libs.... so you need 16-20 maxs to stop that.

[NewSith]

2 maxs are lunch to a dalton lib most max's just don't fire remember we are talking about armada's of 6-8 libs.... so you need 16-20 maxs to stop that.

IMO, they may aswell just remove Dalton and Zepphyr.


Or better - they can make it a Galaxy sidegrade (mounted on a side) and Liberator should get AP, HEAT and HE Shredder instead, with latter having reduced accuracy at long range.

[Dragonskin]

2 maxs are lunch to a dalton lib most max's just don't fire remember we are talking about armada's of 6-8 libs.... so you need 16-20 maxs to stop that.

Sorry, maybe I just picked the right server because it's fairly rare that air is overpowering ground on Mattherson. I see clusters of maxs all the time. Ground totally helps to push the air out.. it's not just a deterant.

Hell last night we actually did a lib event on Esamir. We got a lot of kills sure, but we were far from OP devastating. Eventually we were pushed back to the warpgate by ground forces working with their air. We were pushed back mostly because we didn't have ground forces to help protect our air like NC had. Of course on my server we have The Enclave and Goons so you have 2 massive forces always assaulting you all the time. Maybe if the servers were more balanced like Mattherson you guys would see better fights.

[Ghoest9]

We got a lot of kills sure, but we were far from OP devastating.


No one ever thinks they are overpowered - "Ya we killed a bunch more people than we lost but they didnt count."

[NewSith]

No one ever thinks they are overpowered - "Ya we killed a bunch more people than we lost but they didnt count."

Yes, and it is easy to say on the other side "I saw it killing 3 of my guys and then it flew away when I hit it! It's OP!" regardless of this very thing taken out of the sky before it could land to repair.


But anyway, the whole artillery from the sky thing on a Lib is broken, I think everyone knows that, otherwise, Sony wouldn't have so much income from Dalton and Zephyr sales.

[Dragonskin]

But anyway, the whole artillery from the sky thing on a Lib is broken, I think everyone knows that, otherwise, Sony wouldn't have so much income from Dalton and Zephyr sales.

Because you know how much income they generate off Lib weapons compared to anything else in the game....

Actually I would say that HE turrets for tanks probably sell better because you don't need a good pilot to fly your kitted lib... or you have to let someone else shoot with your new gun.. which a lot of people don't like either.. because they bought that gun.

The MBTs and Lightnings can immediately use their HE turrets.

[NewSith]

Because you know how much income they generate off Lib weapons compared to anything else in the game....

Actually I would say that HE turrets for tanks probably sell better because you don't need a good pilot to fly your kitted lib... or you have to let someone else shoot with your new gun.. which a lot of people don't like either.. because they bought that gun.

The MBTs and Lightnings can immediately use their HE turrets.

Liberators don't usually come stuffed with random gunners, mostly because without the ability to see what they are aiming at you can't provide a proper angle.


Plus there are lots of support dudes, like myself, who love to watch their gunners make kills and they consider that their own achievement. Though, I actually prefer to be able to get shot out of the sky, hence I'm using Shredder and I even don't have Dalton, nor Zephyr purchased/certed.


P.S. Yeah, and I don't need to know their income generation to see that only one out of fifty libs in the sky is equipped with Shredder.

[Fear The Amish]

Because you know how much income they generate off Lib weapons compared to anything else in the game....

Actually I would say that HE turrets for tanks probably sell better because you don't need a good pilot to fly your kitted lib... or you have to let someone else shoot with your new gun.. which a lot of people don't like either.. because they bought that gun.

The MBTs and Lightnings can immediately use their HE turrets.

yeah but you can actually reach and KILL a HE tank were as a lib just goes "oh that tickles" and flys away to repair then comes back.

[Dragonskin]

yeah but you can actually reach and KILL a HE tank were as a lib just goes "oh that tickles" and flys away to repair then comes back.

Surprised you guys play the game honestly. Every day something is OP. If you look most things in the game are OP outside of infantry. Threads about maxes (specifically NC maxs), tanks, air.... is this game fun for anyone?

[Ghoest9]

Yes, and it is easy to say on the other side "I saw it killing 3 of my guys and then it flew away when I hit it! It's OP!" regardless of this very thing taken out of the sky before it could land to repair.


But anyway, the whole artillery from the sky thing on a Lib is broken, I think everyone knows that, otherwise, Sony wouldn't have so much income from Dalton and Zephyr sales.


If 3 libs are flying together they are only going to get shot down if they are attacked by a swarm of ESF or if they do something totally reckless.
Mostly Libs die when the players are done farming carefully and decide to get crazy risky because they are ready do something different.

[The Messenger]

I don't think the weapons are the issue, it's how agile they are when a chassis is fully upgraded. Lately, I've seen libs that can turn as well as an ESF which makes taking them down with air very difficult. The lib just goes belly up and continues to fly sideways while the gunner takes out enemy air. If the ESF isn't a very skilled pilot at out maneuvering, he's going to get shot down. Add the fact that an enemy fighter maybe trying to protect their lib and it becomes even more difficult. I don't know what chassis allows a lib to fly so fast sideways but I'm going to assume it's the High-G Airframe since it likely involves vertical thrusters. It's not the weapons that are imbalanced IMO, it's the upgraded maneuverability with the massive amount of armor a lib has.

Then there's the racer frame, a reaver without a speed upgrade is slower than a lib with one. I'm pretty sure once that hits the main forum, it's going to cause an uproar with NC players wanting a speed buff to the stock reaver. It's bad enough that their speed is absolute garbage even with racer 3 chassis, but now libs are faster? Uh oh

[boogy]

Surprised you guys play the game honestly. Every day something is OP. If you look most things in the game are OP outside of infantry. Threads about maxes (specifically NC maxs), tanks, air.... is this game fun for anyone?

I play this game a lot, all hours, day and night. I both squad up and go solo. Because of this I feel I have a good perspective of air to ground balance. I've played through all of beta as well and have seen this happen before. I've seen how better this game is when it's infantry and ground centric and how liberators have always caused issues for balance. I know the only time libs aren't a a complete problem are during peek hours when servers are full. This is because you will have organized squads that do take on air. I also know that those peek hour windows are getting smaller every day, and that outfits and squads are starting to go air more and more, causing further reduction in the fps aspect of this game. I also do know SOE ain't dumb and will do what needs to be done to get this game back on track.

I complain because I care and love this game, seeing ps2 grow and get better and better in beta has been one of the best gaming experiences I've ever had in my life. We're just experiencing a balance set back right now, it's our duty not to ignore it. The devs want feedback, this is what they ask for, my god we are giving it to them.

[RykerStruvian]

I gave up on the ground fighting overall. I'm not bad at it but playing infantry is just farmbait at the moment. I caved in and bought A2A/G2A for my reaver and now I'm going 20:1 :\ Its amazing how big a switch like that could make. Its just nice not being farmed by libs persistently.

[Rothnang]

Liberators aren't too strong, they just happen to be a unit of extremes. They either absolutely wreck you, or they spend their entire time running or dying.

People on the ground just don't notice the Liberators when they aren't bombing you to crap, so they assume that's all Liberators do.

In reality Liberators spend most of their time running from fighter attacks, getting shooed off by AA guns, and flying around looking for a place where they can actually start bombing without getting killed.

I really think people need to ride in a Liberator for a bit before they judge it too harshly. It does have amazing firepower, and it's armor is solid, but it's also huge, visible from a mile away, not very maneuverable, and extremely vulnerable to a lot of different things.

Also the Liberator is the one single vehicle in the game that really thrives on a team of people who communicate and play well together, nerfing it to the point where that doesn't give you at least some edge just wouldn't be right.

[KaskaMatej]

An outfit mate has a way to take down Liberators: Drifter Jet C4 Lib Mid Air Success /w Sujieun - YouTube

[The Messenger]

An outfit mate has a way to take down Liberators:

Damn nice, it's times like that the game needs a kill cam, I know they were wondering, wtf? Probably got reported too, but well worth it. This would get my vote for a "kill of the week" thread if we had one.

If you ever pull this off again consider going over to the pilot canopy and just standing on it. I don't know if the game will actually let him see you but imagine what he would be thinking.

[yadda]

I hate liberators with an extreme passion but they are not too strong. There is just a severe lack of ways for ground units to deal with air so we just get victimized by them.

Skyguard is an airchav perpetuated myth, that thing is beyond trash. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. If anyone says it's good/acceptable you should begin questioning their ability as a player and the standards of which they hold themselves to.
Mounted AA turret is just asking to be killed, slightly above skyguard but still not acceptable.
Burster MAX. The only real AA that does any good, still a thankless profitless job and requires SC or certs you will never see again just to be viable.

Combating the air just simply isn't worth it so people don't do it and that's why Libs dominate, not because they are good, but because of our inabilities to combat them.

[Assist]

NoX's solution?
Libs need to be faster and more maneuverable with significantly less health.


I don't know that they need to be faster. Cert'd out they move at a decent speed and handle a lot better than most think. Maybe more thrust power, but not top speed.

Less health I agree with. I actually think one of the big problems with liberators is not the low flying ones, they can be destroyed by ground easy enough. It's the ones that are so high that AA and Lock-on can't get them. You have to have ESF's to go after them, and having only one counter to a problem isn't what PS is about. I watched an armor column of 30-40 TR vehicles get demolished in about 2 minutes from 3 Liberators that were flying at ceiling height. It's things like this that need to be fixed.
I'm probably one of the few high BR that is never in air vehicles, I don't understand the value of it tbh, but as a ground fighter I'm never worried about liberators. I get rocked by them sometimes, but it's usually because our offensive force is not balanced for the fight. ESF's tear me up far more often than liberators, personally I feel that Rocket Pods still need to be worked on as every single ESF uses rocket pods these days. When everyone uses one weapon there's a balance issue, imo.

All that said, a TR on Waterson went from 62 to 70+ yesterday because he sat in a lib all day. Something needs to change there IMO. Liberators shouldn't be so dominate against infantry. Tanks/Armor they should annihilate, but infantry not so much.

[NewSith]

I don't know that they need to be faster.


This is why:

Less health I agree with. I actually think one of the big problems with liberators is not the low flying ones...

As I said many times already, Liberators are not only Daltons and Zephyrs, and I really dislike the fact that people forget about that.

[Assist]

As I said many times already, Liberators are not only Daltons and Zephyrs, and I really dislike the fact that people forget about that.

As of the state of the game today, Liberators are indeed only Daltons and Zephyrs. Their main function is a bomber, and those two weapons are their bomber weapons. The speed disagreement is purely opinion.

[SpunkyKuma]

Sorry, maybe I just picked the right server because it's fairly rare that air is overpowering ground on Mattherson. I see clusters of maxs all the time. Ground totally helps to push the air out.. it's not just a deterant.

Hell last night we actually did a lib event on Esamir. We got a lot of kills sure, but we were far from OP devastating. Eventually we were pushed back to the warpgate by ground forces working with their air. We were pushed back mostly because we didn't have ground forces to help protect our air like NC had. Of course on my server we have The Enclave and Goons so you have 2 massive forces always assaulting you all the time. Maybe if the servers were more balanced like Mattherson you guys would see better fights.

Have you fought TR at all? TR on Matherson are doing nothing but swarming air over and over and it got extremely annoying to fight them.

I don't play the game anymore, I uninstalled it the other day, I'm through with the crippled balance. I can't believe I lasted only a month with PS2 whereas I went 5 some odd years with PS1 before quitting.

[NewSith]

As of the state of the game today, Liberators are indeed only Daltons and Zephyrs. Their main function is a bomber, and those two weapons are their bomber weapons. The speed disagreement is purely opinion.

So that basically means they should nerf Liberator vehicle characteristics?

Tell, you what I'll stay negative to Liberator nerf until they implement a vehicle that can be a new helicopter for me.

[Bocheezu]

The PS2 lib is way too manueverable and this crap where you can nose up and bomb sideways is idiotic. I don't understand why it has a bomb turret that rotates around and allows you to shoot at whatever you want. Make it like the PS1 lib; you can only bomb when the plane is horizontal and you can only adjust the forward angle that the bomb takes. You can't bomb sideways and you can't bomb backwards.

[Dragonskin]

Have you fought TR at all? TR on Matherson are doing nothing but swarming air over and over and it got extremely annoying to fight them.

I don't play the game anymore, I uninstalled it the other day, I'm through with the crippled balance. I can't believe I lasted only a month with PS2 whereas I went 5 some odd years with PS1 before quitting.

Yea, I play against The Enclave all the time. I'm in GOTR and we have no issues with switching to all AA to take out their air. The Goons on NC actually put out more of an air threat than TE, just because there are more Goons.. and lets face it.. for the most part TE IS the TR for Mattherson.. yea the Rival outfit is there, but they are usually off doing smaller battles.

Of course we do our share of air battles too. Just last Sunday we did a lib event with like 20 or so libs bombing Esamir until NC pushed us back with their AA. Tons of AA on mattherson.. tons. Hard to fly anywhere for any length of time without getting shot down.

[NoXousX]

If 3 libs are flying together they are only going to get shot down if they are attacked by a swarm of ESF or if they do something totally reckless.
Mostly Libs die when the players are done farming carefully and decide to get crazy risky because they are ready do something different.

If three libs are flying all it takes is myself and hitback to smoke all three in our ESFs (assuming we aren't being deterred by AA).

Libs are far from unstoppable in numbers and I routinely engage and destroy them, even in the midst of enemy ESFs.

The problem I see is players don't know how to counter libs much like they don't know how to counter ESFs. Much like the first PS, good pilots rarely get farmed by enemy air while on the ground because they have experience in the shoes of the enemies firing at them and know how to counter and avoid it. If players learn to fly a lib they'll understand lib vulnerabilities and be able to counter them.

For example one of there best things you can do is just harass them. Take 500m+ shots at them, and learn to recognize what an over extended lib looks like. In my mosquito I routinely take shots at libs so far that maybe 1 in 5 shots will land (if I'm lucky). I do it to scourgeoftheserver and he hates it because it forces him to go defensive and try to locate the threat.

A lot can be done; players just don't know what to do.

[NoXousX]

The PS2 lib is way too manueverable and this crap where you can nose up and bomb sideways is idiotic. I don't understand why it has a bomb turret that rotates around and allows you to shoot at whatever you want. Make it like the PS1 lib; you can only bomb when the plane is horizontal and you can only adjust the forward angle that the bomb takes. You can't bomb sideways and you can't bomb backwards.

No, Libs in PS2 aren't maneuverable enough. That is precisely why they are flying prot warriors. If they were more agile, responsive, and faster, they wouldn't need to do as much damage as they do now or have as much health.

One thing PS1 did better was have liberator success determined by the skill of the pilot. While that is still the case, its not nearly as important as it was. There is a whole lot of rock/paper/scissors going on right now, and I believe kills should come due to skillful flying and skillful gunning; not broken mechanics.

[Assist]

The PS2 lib is way too manueverable and this crap where you can nose up and bomb sideways is idiotic. I don't understand why it has a bomb turret that rotates around and allows you to shoot at whatever you want. Make it like the PS1 lib; you can only bomb when the plane is horizontal and you can only adjust the forward angle that the bomb takes. You can't bomb sideways and you can't bomb backwards.

I actually like this idea a lot. Will get all the no-skill AE junkies out of the libs and force them to get back to playing the game. I've no issues with the maneuverability of the liberator, but combined with the way the turrets work on it, it's proven to be too strong. Although I would also nerf the AE radius on the Dalton and Zephyr. I understand being strong against armor, but not against infantry. Bombers should target structures, vehicles, fortification, not infantry.
Liberators are meant to be strategic, part of the rock/paper/scissors aspect of the game. Right now they're just a farm tool since they're the best anti-ground in the game(better than MBT's wtf!) and have a fighting chance against other air.

[RykerStruvian]

I don't know why you guys say AA turrets are bad considering the last patch buffed them and made destroying them a bit more difficult. AA turrets chew through air more so than burster MAXs do, the only problem is that being in an AA gun screams "SHOOT ME, HOLY SHIT LOOK AT ME SHOOT ME!!!" since you can't move. At least the last patch gives you -some- chance to react and run away if someone tries to surprise rocketpod you. Also, AA MAXs have the bug where they will not do any damage at all and resupplying isn't a fix which works all the time for that.

[Dragonskin]

I actually like this idea a lot. Will get all the no-skill AE junkies out of the libs and force them to get back to playing the game. I've no issues with the maneuverability of the liberator, but combined with the way the turrets work on it, it's proven to be too strong. Although I would also nerf the AE radius on the Dalton and Zephyr. I understand being strong against armor, but not against infantry. Bombers should target structures, vehicles, fortification, not infantry.
Liberators are meant to be strategic, part of the rock/paper/scissors aspect of the game. Right now they're just a farm tool since they're the best anti-ground in the game(better than MBT's wtf!) and have a fighting chance against other air.

You would have to take away the zypher completely.. it is a anti-infantry weapon. And you can't destroy buildings... what do you think this is BF3? No reason to target buildings unless you are hitting windows to kill infantry. Also what fortifications are you talking about? Turrets? Which are used by infantry?

The Dalton does what it says. It kills vehicles.. which is what the lib seems designed to do. I'm not sure why they gave the lib a zypher and a dalton, but now that the zypher was given to the lib.. they aren't going to take it away because people bought it already.

[StumpyTheOzzie]

How are they getting kills at the flight ceiling? Infantry don't render that far up in my experience (unless maybe you're in really sparsely populated fights).

Libs are only strong when they've got air superiority and ground AA is sparse. Skyguards are still fairly bad, but those invisible surprise MAX nests remain incredibly nasty.

Yeah.

True story: I'm bombing with the Zephyr. We know there's a sundy at [someplace] and we know there's a swarm of zerglings pouring through [chokepoint]

So I'll get my pilot to fly around so I can shoot into the chokepoint and then we'll fly over the sundy but since nothing renders after about 400m, no kills. Even though I'm firing. So we go lower. Then we start getting torn up by the Maxes but still can't see anything, so we go lower. THEN my machine starts rendering the infantry. My Zephyr rounds already in flight suddenly start massacring zerglings and my new rounds can actually get aimed better and then we're dead before we know what's going on. 20 minute timer and 300 green resources gone for maybe 12 kills (4kxp with boosts, alpha squad and double XP bonus, so 1kxp "normally") in 23 minutes. I can do WAY better xp/h than that doing pretty much anything else.

Are liberators too strong?

In lightly contested areas, yes. For camping external spawn rooms while the bases are being capped, yes. For bombing runs over large zergs? no way.

Metagame effects of liberators? It makes the small groups get upset and stop trying to do anything useful, because one lib can pretty much take out a squad so "lets just go to the crown" and make the zerg bigger. Depriving liberators of targets, making them useless.

[Dragonskin]

Yeah.

True story: I'm bombing with the Zephyr. We know there's a sundy at [someplace] and we know there's a swarm of zerglings pouring through [chokepoint]

So I'll get my pilot to fly around so I can shoot into the chokepoint and then we'll fly over the sundy but since nothing renders after about 400m, no kills. Even though I'm firing. So we go lower. Then we start getting torn up by the Maxes but still can't see anything, so we go lower. THEN my machine starts rendering the infantry. My Zephyr rounds already in flight suddenly start massacring zerglings and my new rounds can actually get aimed better and then we're dead before we know what's going on. 20 minute timer and 300 green resources gone for maybe 12 kills (4kxp with boosts, alpha squad and double XP bonus, so 1kxp "normally") in 23 minutes. I can do WAY better xp/h than that doing pretty much anything else.

Are liberators too strong?

In lightly contested areas, yes. For camping external spawn rooms while the bases are being capped, yes. For bombing runs over large zergs? no way.

Metagame effects of liberators? It makes the small groups get upset and stop trying to do anything useful, because one lib can pretty much take out a squad so "lets just go to the crown" and make the zerg bigger. Depriving liberators of targets, making them useless.

Well said and this can be said for most balance threads in this forum. People complain from a small scale perspective, but from a large scale perspective things appear a lot more balanced to me. Playing a high pop server during peak time you don't see large kill streaks.. because plenty of people will switch roles to kill you regardless of what vehicle you are in.

Small scale vehicles > infantry. Large scale infantry < vehicles.

I can't count how many times we have switched to all AV or AA as an outfit and ripped through colums of armor or skies full of air.

[Sunrock]

YOu must be a very newbie liberator pilot. I hunt ESFs with my liberator, and so does anyone with any skill. Just because you're a shit player doesn't mean squat. Also you must not have any experience with taking down libs with an ESF, since you state an AA ESF is effective against libs, which isn't true, you need a nosegun and rocket pods to actually go after libs. Without ammo capacity upgrades an A2A ESF (with the A2A gun and A2A missiles) litterally doesn't have enough ammo to down a lib.

Sorry for the late reply. X-mas an all.

You can not be more wrong. Of course I shoot down ESF with my libs. It's not that hard as long as they are some what unaware of me or engaged in a fight with some one else already. But if you say you can dogfight a ESF easily with a lib without any support your dilutional.

And of course I have experience taking down libs 1vs1 with my ESF. It's not that hard if you know what you do. Sure I don't do it in 3 seconds, might need 20 seconds but as long as you fly so you attack the lib from the side and above/under as mush as possible its like shooting fish in a barrel. And as the ESF is so mush more agile then a lib it's way too easy to avoid taking damage from it.

Re: Rocket pods. Only works if you're VS as your dual photon have allot better accuracy then TR's Hellfire Rockets. Or you need to fire your Hellfire rockets at blank point range. Besides who is stupid enough not to have and use a nosegun do you really have to mention that you switch between those no matter what your secondary weapons are?

But usually I only use the M18 Rotary when killing Libs with my Mossy and then finish off with a missile or two.

And max upgrade your A2A amo to 9 does not cost many certs to start with so way QQ over that? Not like upgrading your reload timer on the rocket pods. That has to be one of the most costly thing you can get in certs....

But the main thing here is not to kill the liberator. It is to prevent it to bomb anything. So if you can deny him moving over any of your factions units you have succeeded. What ever you use to do it with, Burster MAX or ESF.

[Sunrock]

An outfit mate has a way to take down Liberators: Drifter Jet C4 Lib Mid Air Success /w Sujieun - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtAdoRF0E7Q)

Nice really cool kill there.

Would have been easier if you just had flown over it and your gunner had killed it with the zepher though.

[boogy]

Well said and this can be said for most balance threads in this forum. People complain from a small scale perspective, but from a large scale perspective things appear a lot more balanced to me. Playing a high pop server during peak time you don't see large kill streaks.. because plenty of people will switch roles to kill you regardless of what vehicle you are in.

Small scale vehicles > infantry. Large scale infantry < vehicles.

I can't count how many times we have switched to all AV or AA as an outfit and ripped through colums of armor or skies full of air.

I'm the most critical of liberator balance and I'm always bringing up the peak hour thing. Problem is, peak hours are the minority of this game. The rest of the 22 hours of the day we have imbalance. Air to ground balance is a problem. You can't just have a game based around full servers, large outfits, and peak hours. The people who put time into this game, playing all hours of the day, experience how the game actually is.

[Sunrock]

I'm the most critical of liberator balance and I'm always bringing up the peak hour thing. Problem is, peak hours are the minority of this game. The rest of the 22 hours of the day we have imbalance. Air to ground balance is a problem. You can't just have a game based around full servers, large outfits, and peak hours. The people who put time into this game, playing all hours of the day, experience how the game actually is.

What wait a sec? 2 hours if the peek hours? MMO prime time is usually from 7PM to 1am. That's 6 hours. TBH the server are usually only have a way to low server pop during 3 am to 10 am. And if you can't live with that roll on a different time zone server.

But I still don't think the liberator is unbalanced even when playing at 5 am. All you need is to run into two ESF planes that gang up on you and your history, if they are not n00b pilots that is. Yes that is fair as you need minimum two players to man one lib.

[boogy]

What wait a sec? 2 hours if the peek hours? MMO prime time is usually from 7PM to 1am. That's 6 hours. TBH the server are usually only have a way to low server pop during 3 am to 10 am.
.

That's not my experience. Servers and battles only get good around7-8 pm. battles and pops start getting imbalanced a couple hours later. 9-10. The rest of the day you find yourself having to really search for good scale balanced battles. Unless you think ghost capping or zerg rolling over scattered infantry and ground is a good balanced battle.

[Sunrock]

That's not my experience. Servers and battles only get good around7-8 pm. battles and pops start getting imbalanced a couple hours later. 9-10. The rest of the day you find yourself having to really search for good scale balanced battles. Unless you think ghost capping or zerg rolling over scattered infantry and ground is a good balanced battle.

I thought we talked a bout server population. IE when players are loged in or not. Not what they do while there where online.

But I have found good large even battles that last for more then an hour between 3pm to 2am. Not every day at every hour during those times though. But I saying that large even battles only happens between 7pm-8pm is inaccurate. At least not on Miller.

Besides you can never force the community to spread out evenly on all 3 continents anyway... If you want to play a FPS games with even equal on each side all the time. Planetside is not the game for you.

[Timealude]

part of the reason why air isnt over powering as much on mattherson is because we have alot of big outfits on our server. They are all pretty well organized and they also have smaller outfits like the one im in run air denial about twice a week. There are times when my outfit will just sit by the TR at crater firing range and use 6 maxes and 5 engies and 1 medic and it takes them a full armor push just to stop use from that position.

Liberators arent too strong as per say, they just excel at doing what they were designed to do. They arent bombers anymore, they are gunships like the GG in ps1 and it just goes back to what a few people are saying about not having enough organization to take those out. Hell, enslave pulls about 20 libs every night and they only last a few minutes because they lack proper air support as well getting eaten up by our max blockades....

[igster]

My biggest issue with Liberators is not that they are OP it's just that they can sit at Max Range and still wtfpwn stuff on the ground. The AA can't touch them at max altitude. They need to at least have to come in to AA damage range to be effective. GGS were cracking in PS1 but they did have to come into range in order to be effective.

[KaskaMatej]

Nice really cool kill there.

Would have been easier if you just had flown over it and your gunner had killed it with the zepher though.

It wouldn't have looked nearly as cool and he didn't have a gunner anyway :P

[GraphicJ]

Sure they can nerf the Libs a bit just as long as they fix the render distance on the AA MAX. But that's like asking for PIGS to fly. :P

[typhaon]

Crashing Galaxy into hovering Liberator = method I use when frustrated.

[Rothnang]

I find it hilarious when people say the Liberators got stronger since Beta.

No they didn't. They removed the Zephyr as its default gun, they made it so the Zephyr does no damage to vehicles unless you score direct hits, and they gave all kinds of buffs to AA since then...

The only reason why Liberators seemed weak in Beta was because Rocket Pods were more powerful than Liberator guns in Beta, and since fighters were and are a really good counter to Liberators there was no reason for anyone to use one.

[Fear The Amish]

No, Libs in PS2 aren't maneuverable enough. That is precisely why they are flying prot warriors. If they were more agile, responsive, and faster, they wouldn't need to do as much damage as they do now or have as much health.

One thing PS1 did better was have liberator success determined by the skill of the pilot. While that is still the case, its not nearly as important as it was. There is a whole lot of rock/paper/scissors going on right now, and I believe kills should come due to skillful flying and skillful gunning; not broken mechanics.

love how a lib whore is telling me that they are easy to counter with his 10 K/D. But i think Lib shots need to be like Rockets and any other weapon in the game they only do max dmg at like 200 meters away then decline drastically. To help them stay alive make them faster. but to counter the speed less HP. I think this would change their roll from super high flying WTFfacePWNERS to high risk high reward bombers.

[Sunrock]

love how a lib whore is telling me that they are easy to counter with his 10 K/D. But i think Lib shots need to be like Rockets and any other weapon in the game they only do max dmg at like 200 meters away then decline drastically. To help them stay alive make them faster. but to counter the speed less HP. I think this would change their roll from super high flying WTFfacePWNERS to high risk high reward bombers.

You do know that you can't kill anything that have not rendered to you. So if you want to kill infantry with libs you need to fly relatively low. Only things you can kill at high altetude is vehicles. But as you can pull buster MAX'es that the lib cant see or kill, but the buster MAX'es can see and hit the libirtor. This is not an issue.

Only reason a liberator is able to farm infantry is that no one tries to attack it. I have seen that many times where you can get 50+ kill streaks as a gunner in the liberator because no one bather to even pull one buster max. That is the bottom line here.

Before you come here and say that liberators are OP learn to counter them. As there is nothing wrong with the stats of the liberator its just that too many players are to stupid to learn how to deal with them efficiently. I even seen medics fire at liberators thinking they can hurt them :rolleyes: And no small arms fire can not hurt libs at all. Only ESF is vulnerable to that.

[Fear The Amish]

You do know that you can't kill anything that have not rendered to you. So if you want to kill infantry with libs you need to fly relatively low. Only things you can kill at high altetude is vehicles. But as you can pull buster MAX'es that the lib cant see or kill, but the buster MAX'es can see and hit the libirtor. This is not an issue.

Only reason a liberator is able to farm infantry is that no one tries to attack it. I have seen that many times where you can get 50+ kill streaks as a gunner in the liberator because no one bather to even pull one buster max. That is the bottom line here.

Before you come here and say that liberators are OP learn to counter them. As there is nothing wrong with the stats of the liberator its just that too many players are to stupid to learn how to deal with them efficiently. I even seen medics fire at liberators thinking they can hurt them :rolleyes: And no small arms fire can not hurt libs at all. Only ESF is vulnerable to that.

BULL shit... so i decided to throw my outfit into libs we just sat at max height and removed vehicles. then we got a little lower and targeted the max's then we just stayed and farmed. Just get infared on the dalton and they stand out nicely and 2 dalton bombs and they are dead when you are circling at max render they barely can damage you anyways so 2-4 libs just devour any max's

[Sunrock]

BULL shit... so i decided to throw my outfit into libs we just sat at max height and removed vehicles. then we got a little lower and targeted the max's then we just stayed and farmed. Just get infared on the dalton and they stand out nicely and 2 dalton bombs and they are dead when you are circling at max render they barely can damage you anyways so 2-4 libs just devour any max's

Ok how many libs where there and how many maxes? You're saying a platoon of libs so I would guess around 10 libs. So it had nothing to do with now many you where? At least 10 Buster maxes to take down 4 libs and they need to focus fire too.

Max rendering for infantry is around 300 meters. If they can't hit you from that distance is because they suck at aiming.

But I never sad that ground AA was the best or should be the best counter to Libs. If you red what I sad earlier in this thread ESF is the best counter to libs.

Or are you saying that Libs should be nerfed to to the point that they are useless. Because if you make them more vulnerable to damage then they are now or nerf there weapons no one will use them because they will be useless against anyone who is not a noob.

PS: But this is not a card game where X always beats Y and Z always beat X and so on.. There are so many more factors that play in too. Numbers of players involved in the fight on each side, skill and experience of the players, are they organized and so on. So you can never say that if you pull X of this and encounter Y of that you will always have the same outcome.

But I see every day how liberators are effectively shut down. Both experiencing it as a pilot my self getting shut down but also killing liberators allot of myself both in MAX suit and with a ESF. And yes using a liberator to kill other liberators is a viable tactic as well.

Yes the Libirator is a thing you can't leave unchecked. It has to always be #1 on anyones kill priority list because you can't leave one unchecked. But that does not make them OP. No one is QQ'ing tha MBT need a nerf because they are stronger then lightnings, so way cry over this?

[Fear The Amish]

Ok how many libs where there and how many maxes? You're saying a platoon of libs so I would guess around 10 libs. So it had nothing to do with now many you where? At least 10 Buster maxes to take down 4 libs and they need to focus fire too.

Max rendering for infantry is around 300 meters. If they can't hit you from that distance is because they suck at aiming.

But I never sad that ground AA was the best or should be the best counter to Libs. If you red what I sad earlier in this thread ESF is the best counter to libs.

Or are you saying that Libs should be nerfed to to the point that they are useless. Because if you make them more vulnerable to damage then they are now or nerf there weapons no one will use them because they will be useless against anyone who is not a noob.

Read the thing you quoted previously i want them to be more of fast agile bombers instead of big lumbering air tanks. and it was 6 libs with 2 in each and maybe 12 A2A scythes and a gal full of infantry. Libs and scythes would go in and nuke everything with scythes providing cover then infantry would get hotdroped. we ran into an AA battery of 8-10 max's with a sundie so they libs just sat at the ceiling and nuked the sundie then came down to 600-500 meters (they render above 300....) we lost 1 and 4 had to repair and come back back. so those 8-10 max's got 1 kill....

[Sunrock]

Read the thing you quoted previously i want them to be more of fast agile bombers instead of big lumbering air tanks. and it was 6 libs with 2 in each and maybe 12 A2A scythes and a gal full of infantry. Libs and scythes would go in and nuke everything with scythes providing cover then infantry would get hotdroped. we ran into an AA battery of 8-10 max's with a sundie so they libs just sat at the ceiling and nuked the sundie then came down to 600-500 meters (they render above 300....) we lost 1 and 4 had to repair and come back back. so those 8-10 max's got 1 kill....

I meant 300 meters between the target and the lib, not what the hight meter tells you in the liberator as the hight meter in the liberator does not show you how close you are to the ground but how hight above "sea level", or lowest point of the map. So if the base is high up in some mountains infantry would of course render before the meter shows 300 meters.

Anyway it sounds like it should be. You showed up in forced and crushed an enemy that was weaker then you. I can't see the scenario you describe as something that would prove the liberator would be too strong in any way. After all you used 12 men that have spent in total 1800 resources against 10 men that spent 1000 resources. Not to mention the 12 ESF.... IMO the nose A2A machine gun is a really good anti infantry weapon... in some situations even better then rocket pods.

If you had sad that you had only a group of 1 or 2 lib and 2 A2A ESF encountering 10 maxes sported by medics and engineers with a sundy. But then I would have questioned if the enemy you encountered where not a bush of retarded noobs.

PS: What your enemy should have done to counter you was to send up 20-25 ESF to hunt you down.

[Timealude]

Read the thing you quoted previously i want them to be more of fast agile bombers instead of big lumbering air tanks. and it was 6 libs with 2 in each and maybe 12 A2A scythes and a gal full of infantry. Libs and scythes would go in and nuke everything with scythes providing cover then infantry would get hotdroped. we ran into an AA battery of 8-10 max's with a sundie so they libs just sat at the ceiling and nuked the sundie then came down to 600-500 meters (they render above 300....) we lost 1 and 4 had to repair and come back back. so those 8-10 max's got 1 kill....

if they were turned into bombers with the current problems with rendering, wouldnt they be more op then now?.. they could just go up to high limit and let bombs just go over and over till they ran out.

[NoXousX]

love how a lib whore is telling me that they are easy to counter with his 10 K/D. But i think Lib shots need to be like Rockets and any other weapon in the game they only do max dmg at like 200 meters away then decline drastically. To help them stay alive make them faster. but to counter the speed less HP. I think this would change their roll from super high flying WTFfacePWNERS to high risk high reward bombers.

I hardly ever bomb a lib. I prefer to let my outfit members do the bombing. And libs are easy to counter. You just need to know how to do it. I normally harass them and force them to turn back. If they don't, it's a free kill. If they over extend, it's a free kill. The second part of your statement basically what I was getting at.

More risk, more skill, potentially more reward.

[Rivenshield]

When you have forty, rather than four or six, enemies shooting at you at once, lethality goes way up. We all understand that. The only instagib weapons in a massive multiple FPS should be (a) a bundle of RDX and (b) sniper headshots. Both take daring and skill.

Lobbing multiple hand grenades down hallways requires neither. And when you have multiple people with a pair of frags each, indoor combat becomes the instadeath spamfest it currently is. LOL GET FLACK ARMOR. I did -- all but one box ticked off. Makes no perceptible difference when you have grenades going off in the room/hallway/stairwell every two seconds.

Go outside, and you get Liberated. It's the same dynamic on a Biblical scale, without the possibility of shooting back. LOL PULL A MOSSIE. I can't fly with mouse and keyboard. I've tried and died repeatedly, mostly from crashing. LOL PULL A BURSTER MAX. Does no good when you die as soon as you step outside, over and over and bloody fucking over.

LOL LRN2PLAY NOOB, STOP GETTING FARMED LOL. How...? How do I arrange this miracle, exactly? Start refusing to fight except when victory is a foregone conclusion? Stop fighting as soon as the Liberators show up at my outpost? Go back to the main menu and switch sides and join the winners?

Granted I'm not much of a gamer, and I've always been subpar at FPS's, but I'm content in a support role. I'm not whining for nerfs and I'm not dumb. I've tried every trick and every maneuver and every emplacement on most of Indar, which at least on Connery is the only place the TR stand a chance for the past week. Nothing works. High-explosive instadeath is now the norm. Those of us that persist in thinking this is a first-person shooter with bonus strategic wargame are walking bags of XP. And one by one, until it gets fixed, we're leaving... not in a fit of nerdrage, but in a sort of dull funk.

I frankly see no fix without pulling the lollipop out of too many mouths. Base redesigns will help. Raising the TTK for infantry slightly across the board, and perhaps half again for anything that explodes, will help. I honestly cannot think of anything else, folks.

I don't want nerfs or buffs. I want *change.* Because the status quo is not sustainable. And I feel badly for the current crop of gamers who will never get the awesome fix we did, being part of a self-organized swarm that made strategic decisions by consensus, ten years ago.

[Dragonskin]

BULL shit... so i decided to throw my outfit into libs we just sat at max height and removed vehicles. then we got a little lower and targeted the max's then we just stayed and farmed. Just get infared on the dalton and they stand out nicely and 2 dalton bombs and they are dead when you are circling at max render they barely can damage you anyways so 2-4 libs just devour any max's

So your argument is that libs are OP because you can overpower the enemy by throwing your whole outfit into libs to kill everything... does anyone else see why this is a bad arguement.

Basically what you highlighted is that libs are OP if you have more libs then the enemy has AA. Which is a pretty duh statement. This is a numbers game. If you have more vehicles than they have forces to counter that vehicle then you will steamroll them. Pick your vehicle... any of them will make that statement true. If you don't have suffecient stopping power to kill tanks then tanks will steamroll you. If you don't have suffecient stopping power for air then air will steamroll you. If you have less forces than the enemy then the enemy will likely steamroll you.

Hell, for shits and giggles get your whole outfit to roll sunderers with fury and bulldogs... steamroll the enemy because you have sunderers and they lack the AV to stop you.

[Sunrock]

When you have forty, rather than four or six, enemies shooting at you at once, lethality goes way up. We all understand that. The only instagib weapons in a massive multiple FPS should be (a) a bundle of RDX and (b) sniper headshots. Both take daring and skill.

Don't know what RDX is but saying that you need daring and skill for sniper headshots is quite an exaggeration. At least not if the target stands still.


Lobbing multiple hand grenades down hallways requires neither. And when you have multiple people with a pair of frags each, indoor combat becomes the instadeath spamfest it currently is. LOL GET FLACK ARMOR. I did -- all but one box ticked off. Makes no perceptible difference when you have grenades going off in the room/hallway/stairwell every two seconds.

What are don't you move to an other point of attack then? There is no base in this game where you only have one point of entrance. Or just retreat a bit wait 30 sec and they all run out of grenades and then storm up.


Go outside, and you get Liberated. It's the same dynamic on a Biblical scale, without the possibility of shooting back. LOL PULL A MOSSIE. I can't fly with mouse and keyboard. I've tried and died repeatedly, mostly from crashing. LOL PULL A BURSTER MAX. Does no good when you die as soon as you step outside, over and over and bloody fucking over.


FYI mouse and keyboard is the best way to fly in this game. Joystick sensibility in this game sucks. Besides how it it anyone else problem that you can't fly? There are allot of good piloted what can fly with mouse and keyboard in this game so it's just your own fault that you have not spent enough time training your own skills. And if you think you don't have the time to spend on the game thats no one else problem but your own either. As there are plenty of players with work and family that manage to pull that off.


LOL LRN2PLAY NOOB, STOP GETTING FARMED LOL. How...? How do I arrange this miracle, exactly? Start refusing to fight except when victory is a foregone conclusion? Stop fighting as soon as the Liberators show up at my outpost? Go back to the main menu and switch sides and join the winners?

How do you learn anything? By training. Spend more time in game.


Granted I'm not much of a gamer, and I've always been subpar at FPS's, but I'm content in a support role. I'm not whining for nerfs and I'm not dumb. I've tried every trick and every maneuver and every emplacement on most of Indar, which at least on Connery is the only place the TR stand a chance for the past week. Nothing works. High-explosive instadeath is now the norm. Those of us that persist in thinking this is a first-person shooter with bonus strategic wargame are walking bags of XP. And one by one, until it gets fixed, we're leaving... not in a fit of nerdrage, but in a sort of dull funk.

What a bunch of losers play on that server? Amerish should be the easiest continent to take for TR. But yea this is not COD: Sci-fi MMO. Meaning this is not a game that focus on infantry game play only.


I frankly see no fix without pulling the lollipop out of too many mouths. Base redesigns will help. Raising the TTK for infantry slightly across the board, and perhaps half again for anything that explodes, will help. I honestly cannot think of anything else, folks.

I don't want nerfs or buffs. I want *change.* Because the status quo is not sustainable. And I feel badly for the current crop of gamers who will never get the awesome fix we did, being part of a self-organized swarm that made strategic decisions by consensus, ten years ago.

TTK is good as it is. Not to low and not to high. Making this game where the infantry rules and vehicles are just a funny gimmick but are totally useless can never happen as it would totally ruin the concept of the game. Infantry is only good to take bases with. If you want more infantry only fights stick to the bio labs, that is what they are designed for.

I believe the the core fighting mech is good as they are right now. Only problem this game have is that there is no purpose to the fights other then to farm exp. They need to make the conquerer of land more viable.

[Dragonskin]

Read the thing you quoted previously i want them to be more of fast agile bombers instead of big lumbering air tanks. and it was 6 libs with 2 in each and maybe 12 A2A scythes and a gal full of infantry. Libs and scythes would go in and nuke everything with scythes providing cover then infantry would get hotdroped. we ran into an AA battery of 8-10 max's with a sundie so they libs just sat at the ceiling and nuked the sundie then came down to 600-500 meters (they render above 300....) we lost 1 and 4 had to repair and come back back. so those 8-10 max's got 1 kill....

dual burster maxes are not the only answer to air. They are the best ground based AA, but really you need to counter air with a combination of AA.

So again.. your arguement is that 6 libs and 12 a2a scythes were able to overpower a small force. 8-10 maxes around 1 sunderer is bad placement... that isn't proof of anything being over powered. You have 12 a2a scythes denying the enemy of countering with air. Then you had 6 libs pounding the ground from max hieght.

You simply overpowered the enemy with numbers. It's a numbers game. I don't know how people don't understand this. The SOE promo for the game even says SIZE. ALWAYS. MATTERS... that's a clue.

[Lieken]

Only read the title but:

AA maxes and infantry are invisible to a liberator and therefore cannot be touched, if that lib continues on an attack vector into the hail of flak and AA missiles he will never make it out

Libs are fine until this supposed render distance fix comes in, until then I can only suggest getting better or getting in an ESF and attacking from above

Probably the former if you're in an "outfit"

[typhaon]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say there are hundreds of infantry and MAX units that have in fact... been touched by Liberators.

I think the flight mechanics are too easy... Libs shouldn't be able to be armored, hovering, AOE platforms - they should require a substantial forward speed or they should fall out of the sky. Perhaps very stripped down (ie. unarmored Liberators) should be more hoverable... but then there would be a tradeoffs.

[moosepoop]

liberators need an accuracy and damage decrease, but i think they need to keep the high armor for survivability.

if aa damage is higher than deterrant air will be unplayable. the only way is to decrease the damage of air itself. the answer is not to increase aa dmg, but to decrease air dmg.

if air is not a hard counter to ground, but a deterrant to ground, it will be balanced.

[Sunrock]

liberators need an accuracy and damage decrease, but i think they need to keep the high armor for survivability.

if aa damage is higher than deterrant air will be unplayable. the only way is to decrease the damage of air itself. the answer is not to increase aa dmg, but to decrease air dmg.

if air is not a hard counter to ground, but a deterrant to ground, it will be balanced.

Libirators are there as bombers. That means there primary function is to be a hard counter to ground. If you nerf that you might as well remove libs all to gather.

Thinks are just fine as they are. Learn to play the game instead of cry rivers on the forums until the game get nerfed to your skill level like a fucking noob.

[ExplodingSilver]

I paid for 6 months subscription at release, I wish I hadn't after the way its turned into a game for OP liberators.

[StumpyTheOzzie]

YES! What Sunrock said here.


Only reason a liberator is able to farm infantry is that no one tries to attack it. I have seen that many times where you can get 50+ kill streaks as a gunner in the liberator because no one bather to even pull one buster max. That is the bottom line here.



I'm in an outfit which is "air cav" suppression-and-support oriented. We don't get our hands dirty with the whole "base capture indoor fighting" part of the game but we will suppress spawn rooms and supply sunderers. This way the zerg can focus on zerging and we provide them with secondary and tertiary spawn points while keeping the enemy spawn points pinned down and the pressure off the people on cap.

I regularly end the night with 150kills and 5 deaths. That's being a pilot half the time and a gunner the other half. I have spent several thousand certs in liberator, and my outfit has been together in one form or another for 15 years so we know what we're doing. Good communication and all that stuff.

Taking all of this into account, it still boggles me that nobody can think to come up with a counter to liberators. It's hilarious. I'll let you in on a secret... The Dalton takes 4 seconds to fire. So, you get two bait runners and everyone else in AA maxes. Wait till they're ready then the bait run out of both spawn room doors as fast as they can. 5 seconds later, all the maxes pour out and start shooting. The result is 1 or 2 dead bait and a dead liberator. That frees up that spawn room so that everyone who spawns in the next 20 minutes (or so) can't be killed by that liberator team.

But of course... the bait's KDR will suffer. So nobody wants to be bait. So that means they will all be slaughtered because nobody's willing to take one for the team.

[Beerbeer]

Just too many of them.

Like all vehicles, a few in a battle makes things well-rounded, a ton if them just breaks battles completely.


Late last night, I watched one lib hold down ten people at an outpost while one person capped. Ten people, desperately trying to get to the control point, getting instantly vaporized the minute they stepped outside. First, I was upset because I couldn't get any tank kills, but then I just watched in awe.

These players at the outpost, were mostly newbies. I would bet more than half of them stop playing if they experience something like this again. That's why the population never grows and continues to shrink. The population will eventually stabilize around vehicle people.

[Whiteagle]

Taking all of this into account, it still boggles me that nobody can think to come up with a counter to liberators. It's hilarious. I'll let you in on a secret... The Dalton takes 4 seconds to fire. So, you get two bait runners and everyone else in AA maxes. Wait till they're ready then the bait run out of both spawn room doors as fast as they can. 5 seconds later, all the maxes pour out and start shooting. The result is 1 or 2 dead bait and a dead liberator. That frees up that spawn room so that everyone who spawns in the next 20 minutes (or so) can't be killed by that liberator team.
*SMACKS CHU UPSIDE THE HEAD!*

You don't see a problem here, do you?

"Pff, noobs, why aren't they a highly coordinated squad/PLATOON with perfect communication and timing so they can take out my single three man Liberator?!"

...That's what you sound like, because you are an arrogant kill-whoring ass who doesn't see what the problem is.

You should NEVER be capable of suppressing the Spawn Room with Air Superiority...
The MOST you should be able to point at those spawn doors is a Tank Cannon, if that!

Do you ever stop and ask yourself why people call this game "Airside 2"?
It's because Air Superiority is the ONLY deciding factor in the game right now due to HORRID base designs.

Hell, at least Armor spam is limited by terrain, so Amerish's mountains allow Infantry to fight against that...

...But why bother with Infantry when a SINGLE LIB, let alone the four or five that are actually going to be hovering overhead, can shut down a base by its lonesome?

...Is the Liberator itself too strong?
Not really in my own opinion, in PROPER fighting conditions it's perfectly balanced for its role as an Air-to-Ground platform...
...But when you are hurting for cover overhead as SOON as you leave a spawn shack, it just IS NOT FAIR!

...God damn, I'd have hated for you jerks to get your hands on "Bunker Busting" bombs...

[Fear The Amish]

*SMACKS CHU UPSIDE THE HEAD!*

You don't see a problem here, do you?

"Pff, noobs, why aren't they a highly coordinated squad/PLATOON with perfect communication and timing so they can take out my single three man Liberator?!"

...That's what you sound like, because you are an arrogant kill-whoring ass who doesn't see what the problem is.

You should NEVER be capable of suppressing the Spawn Room with Air Superiority...
The MOST you should be able to point at those spawn doors is a Tank Cannon, if that!

Do you ever stop and ask yourself why people call this game "Airside 2"?
It's because Air Superiority is the ONLY deciding factor in the game right now due to HORRID base designs.

Hell, at least Armor spam is limited by terrain, so Amerish's mountains allow Infantry to fight against that...

...But why bother with Infantry when a SINGLE LIB, let alone the four or five that are actually going to be hovering overhead, can shut down a base by its lonesome?

...Is the Liberator itself too strong?
Not really in my own opinion, in PROPER fighting conditions it's perfectly balanced for its role as an Air-to-Ground platform...
...But when you are hurting for cover overhead as SOON as you leave a spawn shack, it just IS NOT FAIR!

...God damn, I'd have hated for you jerks to get your hands on "Bunker Busting" bombs...

lol great post

[Subedai]

The other day I pulled a dual burster max to scare off a lib, the lib just landed in front of me and all 3 crew got out and repaired while I was STILL shooting at the lib.... Then took off and shot at the guys around me, rinsed and repeated about 5 times. With me still shooting at them the whole time. I gave up and deconned my sundy.

'Nuff said.

[Sunrock]

...Is the Liberator itself too strong?
Not really in my own opinion, in PROPER fighting conditions it's perfectly balanced for its role as an Air-to-Ground platform...

...But when you are hurting for cover overhead as SOON as you leave a spawn shack, it just IS NOT FAIR!

What to do when pined down in the spawn room? Redeploy to organize a counter attack.

So it's not the game design of the liberator that is out of balance but the players incapability to thinking outside the box. Or should I say thinking outside the closest spawn point...

[NewSith]

What to do when pined down in the spawn room? Redeploy to organize a counter attack.

So it's not the game design of the liberator that is out of balance but the players incapability to thinking outside the box. Or should I say thinking outside the closest spawn point...

This is arguable. IMO, the game should not revolve around thinking too much, otherwise it gets too professional. And, seriously, who makes a cybersport type of game out of a 2000 per map shooter?

[Sunrock]

This is arguable. IMO, the game should not revolve around thinking too much, otherwise it gets too professional. And, seriously, who makes a cybersport type of game out of a 2000 per map shooter?

Are you serious? Thinking too mush? :rolleyes: OMG!

But yea this is defiantly not a e-sport game as you can't control who fights who.

[NewSith]

Are you serious? Thinking too mush? :rolleyes: OMG!

Let me elaborate:

Sequence:
I fight for an outpost. I get a decent fight with mostly enemy infantry and friendly infantry engaging each other all over place. My level of potential individual contribution to the fight is rather high. A suddenly appearing HE Liberator gets in range and starts pounding. Instantly the level of potential individual contribution drops to a very low degree.


How so?

With a stable fight I can microcontrol what is happening - respond to an armored threat, defend the point, attack enemy footsoldiers, relay info.
Following the appearance of the Liberator I am now LOCKED into 1 particular activity - taking that Liberator down.



It should never EVER be like that in a game that pretends to be casual and not an e-sport.



This issue is not only valid for Liberators, it is also valid for MBT spam and MAX crashes. It is just that ATM, the community is busy making a scapegoat out of a Liberator.

[Sunrock]

It should never EVER be like that in a game that pretends to be casual and not an e-sport.



This issue is not only valid for Liberators, it is also valid for MBT spam and MAX crashes. It is just that ATM, the community is busy making a scapegoat out of a Liberator.

Who in the hell have sad this game is casual? Anyone with a brain cell left after the holidays have to understand that a game that revolve around playing more then 4 players as a team can never be purely casual. And in any game where you mix casual and hardcore the hardcore will always rule. In the same way that professional athletes will always dominate in sports over amateurs, they just train allot more.

And yes this game never ever pretended to be a infantry only FPS game. If you want that go and play some other game.

[NewSith]

go and play some other game.

I give up. Seriously. This particular line made me ignore the whole body of your post.

[Fear The Amish]

I give up. Seriously. This particular line made me ignore the whole body of your post.

yeah Sunrock was the type of guy who thought BFR's were great in PS1 and told everyone to play something else.... well they did... and they are doing that to PS2 now.

[Whiteagle]

What to do when pined down in the spawn room? Redeploy to organize a counter attack.

So it's not the game design of the liberator that is out of balance but the players incapability to thinking outside the box. Or should I say thinking outside the closest spawn point...
Yes, because when the closest spawnpoint is a five minute SPRINT away, that's a REALLY valid option...

Jeez Sunrock, you are the type of person who can't even defend a continent without a 10% population advantage, because you are constantly loosing ground so you can redeploy to the Warpgate to counter spam vehicles!

yeah Sunrock was the type of guy who thought BFR's were great in PS1 and told everyone to play something else.... well they did... and they are doing that to PS2 now.
Why do you think I smacked Stumpy for agreeing with him?

Idiots like him can't see beyond their own self-intrest, and are thus incapable of understanding any logistics outside of "Lurn2planob".

He reminds me of an idiot last night who couldn't understand why pushing Kwahtee Amp and the VS Warpgate was stupid... when Hayoka was being backhacked by NC!

[Sunrock]

Yes, because when the closest spawnpoint is a five minute SPRINT away, that's a REALLY valid option...

Jeez Sunrock, you are the type of person who can't even defend a continent without a 10% population advantage, because you are constantly loosing ground so you can redeploy to the Warpgate to counter spam vehicles

Yes because it's imposible to use sundies, flash, MBT or any air.... :rolleyes: Idiot

[Sunrock]

Why do you think I smacked Stumpy for agreeing with him?

Idiots like him can't see beyond their own self-intrest, and are thus incapable of understanding any logistics outside of "Lurn2planob".

He reminds me of an idiot last night who couldn't understand why pushing Kwahtee Amp and the VS Warpgate was stupid... when Hayoka was being backhacked by NC!

Talk about your self. You if any can't see beyond your own self interests. I bet you won't be happy until the only weapon you can use in this game is a knife.

And yes players that want to change the game to something it is not needs to learn to play or get the fuck out. If I want to play COD I go play COD not QQ on the forums to the game I play become some other game I want to play.

You're the idiot here if any one is.

[belch]

Having done a fair bit of skeeter-jockey time, I am often surprised at how few are focused on A2A. There's a guy that is a really good pilot, fairly well known, that looks at A2A as disdainful. Personally, I like running Libs off of the objective. Even better when I can take them down, and get away. But, I have to say, most ESF'ers on my server are focused on rocket podding the piss out of infantry.

I guess what I am getting at is...IMO no, the Lib's are not too strong. They actually have a good counter in the air, if anyone cares to take on the role. Combine decent A2A with ground based AA and the Lib's usually run.

[Whiteagle]

Yes because it's imposible to use sundies, flash, MBT or any air.... :rolleyes: Idiot
Well YES...

Liberator filled Air means Ground Transports are just bundles of XP waiting to be shot, and they more then likely HAVE Air-to-Air support in order to have gained Air Dominance in the first place...

Talk about your self. You if any can't see beyond your own self interests. I bet you won't be happy until the only weapon you can use in this game is a knife.
Fuck off, ask anyone on this forum what needs to happen, and 9 times out of ten it will be Base Redesigns.

There isn't anywhere in this game for Infantry to actually ACT as Infantry, we just capture points for our Vehicle swarms or make a minor nuisance of ourselves for the enemies'.

And yes players that want to change the game to something it is not needs to learn to play or get the fuck out. If I want to play COD I go play COD not QQ on the forums to the game I play become some other game I want to play.
Then go play CoD you CoDdie, this is suppose to be PLANETSIDE!

While I'm not expecting a carbon copy of the Original, I'd at least like to see all this awesome shit the vets keep telling us about.

You're the idiot here if any one is.
*Double post to reply to two different halfs of one of mine, calls me an Idiot...* :rolleyes:

[Dragonskin]

Do you ever stop and ask yourself why people call this game "Airside 2"

This game is called ___side 2 depending on what thread you are in on a specific forum. I actually thought it was just Vehicleside 2... since you guys have literally complained about every single vehicle in the game being OP except the Flash.

Seriously... there is a thread saying each vehicle is OP. Just do a search... lightnings with HE rounds, MBTs with HE rounds, Magriders specifically, hell there was a thread saying that SUNDERERS were OP.

Not just pointing at you Whiteagle, but you guys literally complain about everything. I really don't see why you continue to play. Do you like causing yourselves stress?

[NewSith]

Talk about your self. You if any can't see beyond your own self interests. I bet you won't be happy until the only weapon you can use in this game is a knife.

And yes players that want to change the game to something it is not needs to learn to play or get the fuck out. If I want to play COD I go play COD not QQ on the forums to the game I play become some other game I want to play.

You're the idiot here if any one is.

I fly a Shredder Liberator and I do that "like a pro" and my gunners have lots of Liberator/ESF kills to brag about, aswell as infantry and, less, but still, tanks. I don't need to get better. However...

I mount an AA MAX once the enemy Liberator makes one pass. And it ALWAYS makes that first pass, unless you already have a team of Bursters waiting for a POTENTIAL aircraft appearance. I tried doing that once - to stand on unpopulated point in a scat+burster, waiting for an attack on that point that could never happen. You know how many enemies I killed or EXP I gained? Zero. Of course I scarred off a couple ESFs and maybe 1 or 2 Libs, but I still got maybe 1 or 2 kill assists. But the funny thing is - just the second I left the outpost, it got some enemies on it and the ticketbar started its count.

You seem to be misunderstanding the depth of the problem. For you it's QQ, because it killed me. Problem is - Why should I do what I just described? Who obliges me to take care about OTHER people, while they don't care about me? It is the mentality of almost any player, independently of him being a solo or a teamplayer, a killwhore or a support fella. In reality, most of the "issues" we see in the game come from the fact that the game forces you to teamplay way too often then it should. Your mentality of "go play some other game" is wrong, because without zerg PlanetSide is not PlanetSide.

And if you want the game to succeed on a very basic level, you need to either make something like that guard duty as beneficial as possible (buffing AA) or comply with the zerg needs (Dalton and Zephyr nerfs, but to be honest I would rather just move those onto a Galaxy and put a bomb bay onto Lib instead)

But whatever I say you will just ignore, that's the feeling I got from reading your posts so far.

[Whiteagle]

This game is called ___side 2 depending on what thread you are in on a specific forum. I actually thought it was just Vehicleside 2... since you guys have literally complained about every single vehicle in the game being OP except the Flash.
Your getting sloppy, you haven't found the "NURF FLASH" threads...

Seriously... there is a thread saying each vehicle is OP. Just do a search... lightnings with HE rounds, MBTs with HE rounds, Magriders specifically, hell there was a thread saying that SUNDERERS were OP.
Notice a trend there?
High Explosive rounds, High Explosive Rounds... High Explosive rounds on a Tank that moves all around better then Infantry?

Yeah, the same problem that created "Tankside 2" is the same at play here, poor bases not designed with Zerged Vehicle combat in mind.

Like I said before, I don't think the Liberator itself is overpowered, it's just shotty base design that gives it something to exploit.

I found Amerish an improvement over Esamir because care was taken in not allowing Armor to just roll up to the Spawn Shack, but then the Zerg's focus shifted to Air to exploit those attack vectors.

Once the Rocket Pods got a Splash Nerf, all that was left to farm with were the Lib Cannons...

Not just pointing at you Whiteagle, but you guys literally complain about everything. I really don't see why you continue to play. Do you like causing yourselves stress?
We complain because we CARE!
We WANT THIS GAME TO SUCCEED!!!

We cause ourselves so much stress because we want this shit to be the most awesome thing on the block, not a rehash on bigger maps.
It is human nature to find fault, be it real or imagined, and when you find yourself spending less and less time each day playing this game, even though you LITERALLY have nothing better to do, you get the feeling that YES, there is a problem.

[StumpyTheOzzie]

*SMACKS CHU UPSIDE THE HEAD!*

You don't see a problem here, do you?

"Pff, noobs, why aren't they a highly coordinated squad/PLATOON with perfect communication and timing so they can take out my single three man Liberator?!"

...That's what you sound like, because you are an arrogant kill-whoring ass who doesn't see what the problem is.

You should NEVER be capable of suppressing the Spawn Room with Air Superiority...
The MOST you should be able to point at those spawn doors is a Tank Cannon, if that!

Do you ever stop and ask yourself why people call this game "Airside 2"?
It's because Air Superiority is the ONLY deciding factor in the game right now due to HORRID base designs.

Hell, at least Armor spam is limited by terrain, so Amerish's mountains allow Infantry to fight against that...

...But why bother with Infantry when a SINGLE LIB, let alone the four or five that are actually going to be hovering overhead, can shut down a base by its lonesome?

...Is the Liberator itself too strong?
Not really in my own opinion, in PROPER fighting conditions it's perfectly balanced for its role as an Air-to-Ground platform...
...But when you are hurting for cover overhead as SOON as you leave a spawn shack, it just IS NOT FAIR!

...God damn, I'd have hated for you jerks to get your hands on "Bunker Busting" bombs...

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

It's in the rules. I'm an asshole. So suck my dick.

I'm not hacking, I'm not cheating, I'm not doing anything the devs have declared illegal.

The game I'm playing is called frustrationside. I'm making you all ragequit so that my team wins.

[ExplodingSilver]

It occurred to me that if SOE released the stats data stream, we could number crunch and get a true (er mathematical) picture of how OP libs are or not

[StumpyTheOzzie]

This is the post of the year right here.

Happy New Year.

Thanks. Feels good to be the best. I actually agree that there's not enough cover for the foot troopers. It really makes it too easy with thermal or infravision to see these little ants explode. About the best they can do at the moment is to hide at the corner of a building where I don't have a clear shot - when I get my pilot to circle around, they run around the corner away from me... Either way, I've suppressed the spawn room and they are unable to defend the base so I'm still doing my job. Less kills though.

It occurred to me that if SOE released the stats data stream, we could number crunch and get a true (er mathematical) picture of how OP libs are or not

Libs are very OP against zerglings. Against the most mediocre organisation they are basically rendered useless. It honestly only takes 3 guys (OMG! THERES 3 PEOPLE IN A LIB!!! Does that mean it's balanced maybe?) to pull maxes or esfs and my lib is unable to spawn camp. Ok, maybe you can't actually KILL me, but you can stop me being a dick spawncamp mofo.


Look, in all seriousness (I'm being a useful, constructive member of society now) the flipside to my earlier arrogant prick post is that *I* have had to organise 2 other people to be able to do what I do, and spend 1800 certs. I'm winning and you're all screaming NERF because of it.

Imagine what would happen if you organised 2 other people to get rid of libs? If you all spent 1800 certs on it? Imagine 3 ESFs with guided missiles and A2A cannons all firing at the same target? I'll tell you... No more libs and you get to keep your A2A scythes/mozzies to kill Gals and reavers!

[Sunrock]

Well YES...

Liberator filled Air means Ground Transports are just bundles of XP waiting to be shot, and they more then likely HAVE Air-to-Air support in order to have gained Air Dominance in the first place...


That was not that we talked about we talked about being pined down in the spawn room in general. If pined down with Libs then yea you go air.


Fuck off, ask anyone on this forum what needs to happen, and 9 times out of ten it will be Base Redesigns.

There isn't anywhere in this game for Infantry to actually ACT as Infantry, we just capture points for our Vehicle swarms or make a minor nuisance of ourselves for the enemies'.


That is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about nerfing the libirator or not... And what do you mean by act like infantry? Act like 1700 centry infantry? No of course not because if you march in big columns between bases your fucked. But there is a place in this game for 2000 century mechanized infantry. Besides Bio Labs are designed to be infantry heavy.


Then go play CoD you CoDdie, this is suppose to be PLANETSIDE!


COD is a FPS game where you can only play as infantry. So I think that game is more suited for you. Where I don't want to see any changes to vehicles might actually like this game.

Now who is the idiot that could not figured that out?

[psijaka]

It occurred to me that if SOE released the stats data stream, we could number crunch and get a true (er mathematical) picture of how OP libs are or not

Would love to see this data, but I'm guessing that it will not see the light of day.

I would wager that the top of the leaderboards (if they were working) would be heavily populated by Lib users, with a smattering of MBT and Rocket pod farmers in there as well.

[belch]

Thanks. Feels good to be the best. I actually agree that there's not enough cover for the foot troopers. It really makes it too easy with thermal or infravision to see these little ants explode. About the best they can do at the moment is to hide at the corner of a building where I don't have a clear shot - when I get my pilot to circle around, they run around the corner away from me... Either way, I've suppressed the spawn room and they are unable to defend the base so I'm still doing my job. Less kills though.



Libs are very OP against zerglings. Against the most mediocre organisation they are basically rendered useless. It honestly only takes 3 guys (OMG! THERES 3 PEOPLE IN A LIB!!! Does that mean it's balanced maybe?) to pull maxes or esfs and my lib is unable to spawn camp. Ok, maybe you can't actually KILL me, but you can stop me being a dick spawncamp mofo.


Look, in all seriousness (I'm being a useful, constructive member of society now) the flipside to my earlier arrogant prick post is that *I* have had to organise 2 other people to be able to do what I do, and spend 1800 certs. I'm winning and you're all screaming NERF because of it.

Imagine what would happen if you organised 2 other people to get rid of libs? If you all spent 1800 certs on it? Imagine 3 ESFs with guided missiles and A2A cannons all firing at the same target? I'll tell you... No more libs and you get to keep your A2A scythes/mozzies to kill Gals and reavers!

He really is speaking the truth...even if he is being an asshole about it.

Hell, just me, 1 guy in a skeeter, can clean an objective of enemy Lib's. I've done it many times. But, it does mean your ESF drivers need to pull their nose up off of the ground. Truth is, so many are interested in doing just what the Lib's are doing...farming infantry with rocket pods. But believe me when I say that as a lone ESF, I have run multiple Liberators off of an objective.

[CrankyTRex]

The problem is that air should always dominate ground because that's how it works. That's why air superiority is always so important.

Normally this is countered by having cover to take shots from and ground forces being hard to spot individually, which this game severely lacks. There is really no place to hide. No caves, no underground structures or tunnels to use, no thick vegetation, etc. That was what made Battlefield 2's air so ridiculous, as not only was their little cover, but the capture points were even out in the open. At least PS2 puts some of them indoors.

So instead of a bunch of infantry going downstairs through a tunnel to the capture point (or another building), they absolutely must walk outside into the waiting arms of Death from Above. (For a universe that has teleporters, this is doubly ridiculous as there's no reason anyone should ever have to be outside.)

Short of fixing that, we will never solve the air to ground balance issues because either air gets nerfed to useless or ground gets abused by the air power mercilessly.

As far as the short-term, short-sighted fix to the Liberator and it's HE guns, the only real thing to do is to force them to come into range and restrict their angle of attack. That means making the HE guns become absurdly inaccurate the farther away you get and substantially reducing their viewing angle. Thus if you fly at the ceiling and you try and bomb a spawn point, you'll be lucky to hit the base at all, and there'll be none of that roll over and shoot bombs at the ESFs silliness since it'll be near impossible to get that angle.

[Rodel]

Lib = Antiground
Max = Anti-fighter
Fighter = AntiLib

That's the formula I think they should shoot for.

[StumpyTheOzzie]

Lib = Antiground
Max = Anti-fighter
Fighter = AntiLib

That's the formula I think they should shoot for.

And you know what? It wouldn't take much tweaking to achieve that at all.

Lib damage output is fine. Maybe the accuracy of the dalton could be lowered and the splash of the zephyr too, but I think if it was slower in the air that'd be great. I don't think libs should be able to "nearly" outrun fighters, no matter what upgrades they have. Libs should be really big, fat targets for small, nimble fighters. Additionally, increase the missile speeds all round. They seem to travel at the speed of a flash rather than a missile.

In terms of hitpoints, I think Libs are pretty good. Maybe 10% too tough. I've maxed out the armour for my lib and it gets shredded by a couple of maxes. It's rare to actually get killed, but I can't do my job if there's 3 maxes in the area. Against ESFs, it's only a couple of missiles followed by a magazine of cannon fire and we're burning, so that's actually quite fair.

The MAX vs ESF thing is pretty good right now, maybe up the max damage a bit or lower the ESF resistance to burster fire a bit but it's very close to what I'd expect.