Knives (and infantry combat in general)

[Beerbeer]

If there's one aspect that clearly states Sony's intention of marginalizing infantry combat in general, it is knives.

Here's why:

Knives require three hits to kill usually. Now to do this, you have to be standing next to someone, not an easy thing to always do. All that effort, all that cunning to get up close and personal and it takes three hits to kill someone.

Now take a tank or esf. I can one shot most infantry from a couple hundred yard away.

Which one is harder to get into position yet requires three mouse clicks to achieve? It's comical how much they don't want us to play infantry. Bases especially cater towards vehicles.

[Daliahita]

I don't understand how you feel that they don't want us to play infantry. Simply because a single soldier isn't as powerful as a tank?

Bases support vehicles and infantry, vehicles support infantry. Ergo, Bases support infantry as much as they support vehicles - there is no favoritism.

[Beerbeer]

You're kind of missing the point, but that's okay.

[Furber]

Yeah bases need to be designed with infantry combat in mind, instead of camping the isolated spawn point with vehicles. That will give infantry combat more of a place in the game, among fixing other problems discussed in the "Huge outfits" thread.

[Daliahita]

Knives require three hits to kill usually. Now to do this, you have to be standing next to someone, not an easy thing to always do. All that effort, all that cunning to get up close and personal and it takes three hits to kill someone.

Now take a tank or esf. I can one shot most infantry from a couple hundred yard away.

Which one is harder to get into position yet requires three mouse clicks to achieve? It's comical how much they don't want us to play infantry.

I don't understand how you feel that they don't want us to play infantry. Simply because a single soldier isn't as powerful as a tank?



Bases especially cater towards vehicles.


Bases support vehicles and infantry, vehicles support infantry. Ergo, Bases support infantry as much as they support vehicles - there is no favoritism.


There. Made it easier for you to read. You should certainly be able to understand what I am saying now.

[The Messenger]

Knives are typically best used in close quarters after already hitting someone a few times. If you managed to sneak up on a static person (usually an infi) put a quick burst and then knife them. With the way the lag works, they won't be able to react before the knife connects.

[Chewy]

I don't understand how you feel that they don't want us to play infantry. Simply because a single soldier isn't as powerful as a tank?

Bases support vehicles and infantry, vehicles support infantry. Ergo, Bases support infantry as much as they support vehicles - there is no favoritism.

It's not as much as a troop being as powerful as a tank but rather having so little skill needed for vehicles than troops.

A good tank can kill anything it wants if it knows ranges and has a bank to leverage the main gun to a higher angle. The only vehicle that takes real skill is the ESF in my opinion, but that's only limited to flying the damned things. Once you get to know the movement of any vehicle. killing with it becomes very easy.

Troops on the other hand need FAR more skill to do well. The melee attack is a good example of that. It takes more risk than anything to go for a melee, yet according to the OP it takes 3 hits from 100% health (I thought it was 2, never tested it) to kill. 3 swipes is several lifetimes at those ranges.

Risk v Reward doesn't seem to add up in PS2. Vehicle play has much less risk to them than being a troop but have FAR greater rewards. Vehicles do have a cost to them, but with res being near infinite that cost is more or less negated unless the vehicle is a sundy or gal. As they cost 400 out of the 750 total.



Iv been thinking about possible fixes for this, but can only think of a few things that "might" work.
- Nerf the hell of out res gain.
- Lower the res cap to 500
- Merge the 3 res types into 1 nanite bank
- A mix of those ideas.

[Beerbeer]

You're still kind of missing the point; I should have never added that last statement regarding bases.

Anyways, I agree, bases support vehicles and infantry: vehicles spawn camp infantry. That's about it really.

What I'm saying is that infantry to infantry combat is marginalized. An in your face knife takes three hits to kill, while a one-man tank, with NO access restrictions, can do the same deed 200 m away with one shot. No one else finds this strange???

[Daliahita]

Having a cooldown and cost offsets the Risk vs. Reward already. You spend the resources, you put it on cooldown, and you get to play a tank and fulfill a role. Yes, it is easier, but that's why infantry respawn and tanks don't. It's why infantry are required to take points on almost every single outpost. You cannot make comparisons between the role of infinitely spawning infantry and the role of a tank.

Tanks are weapons of opportunity. They need the support of air, or infantry, or other tanks. They cannot adapt to situations, they are tailored to one specific situation - infantry are not. Infantry can go back and change their role - tanks cannot. Tanks are limited to the opportunity they present themselves with during their operational life, while infantry can fulfill multiple roles, and adapt to different situations within the same operational life and more.

This is why you can't compare the two. This is why it takes 2 backstabs (3 against a shielded heavy, maybe) to kill an infantry, while a tank only needs one shot from 100m with relative ease. And it's completely fair.

[Beerbeer]

What you're saying only applies to a perfect world, on paper. People will find ways to maximize tanks over infantry no matter what the circumstances. You said it yourself, tanks are superior to infantry, besides, I run out of infantry resources on med kits and grenades faster than I do spamming tanks. That cool down is nothing at all.

But, you are missing the point entirely of what I was trying to convey.

[Daliahita]

Anyways, I agree, bases support vehicles and infantry: vehicles spawn camp infantry. That's about it really.

You're the one missing the point.

Anti-Air Turrets, Anti-Vehicle Turrets. Those aren't manned by vehicles. They are part of the base. The base helping infantry. The base helping infantry kill vehicles.

Next, tell me how a Bio Lab lets vehicles spawn camp. Yes, spawn camping is a problem, but infantry can do it just as well on their own.


What I'm saying is that infantry to infantry combat is marginalized. An in your face knife takes three hits to kill, while a one-man tank, with NO access restrictions, can do the same deed 200 m away with one shot. No one else finds this strange???

A one-man tank has no access restrictions? Don't tell me you're gonna see on waltz into an Amp Station alone or into the Bio Lab and get behind someone. That's something only infantry can do. I can turn it around and say something just as dumb like "How come only infantry can go into amp stations and blow generators?" or "I have to shoot enemy tanks multiple times when infantry can just place a mine with zero effort involved in the actual kill? Doesn't anyone find this strange?"

This all goes back to roles and how they fit into gameplay. No, infantry are NOT supposed to get kills like tanks do. If playing a tank is so easy, and just as rewarding, why don't you play one all the time? Oh right! You can't. They have a cost, and they're not usable in every combat situation. But wait a minute, infantry are!

[Beerbeer]

But I do. You think I get a tank and instantly die? That's all I play and I rarely run out of resources. I'm sure other vehicle-honks could attest to the same thing.

I never said anything about the macro aspect of me waltzing into a base all Rambo-like versus some coordinated effort. Not sure how this even applies to what I was trying to say.

[Daliahita]

What you're saying only applies to a perfect world, on paper. People will find ways to maximize tanks over infantry no matter what the circumstances.

Bio Lab. Sky Mesa on Indar. Done deal. This isn't World of Tanks; you NEED infantry.

You said it yourself, tanks are superior to infantry,

Never have I said that. "Simply because a single soldier isn't as powerful as a tank". That has nothing to do with superiority.

besides, I run out of infantry resources on med kits and grenades faster than I do spamming tanks. That cool down is nothing at all.

If you're having trouble playing infantry, no one will blame you for sticking to tanks because they're easier.

This could all be avoided if you read carefully, and didn't just spout the classically ignorant excuse of "you just don't get it".

[Beerbeer]

Oh, three bases.

A soldier not being as powerful as a tank sure sounds like the tank is superior to the soldier...

And again, you're missing the point and telling me I'm ignorant without knowing a thing about me and what play style I enjoy is kind of ironic when it comes to ignorance.

You assume a lot...lol.

[Daliahita]

I never said anything about the macro aspect of me waltzing into a base all Rambo-like versus some coordinated effort. Not sure how this even applies to what I was trying to say.

"Tanks are weapons of opportunity. They need the support of air, or infantry, or other tanks."

Read and be educated. Don't skim my posts, please.

That's all I play and I rarely run out of resources.

So you only play tanks, huh. I guess you wouldn't know about the countless infantry supporting you, defending you, and capturing the bases for you. This applies to what you said because you believe tanks are better than infantry by far. As if everyone should just be tanks? You think anything will get done that way?

Look, stick to tanks if that's what you're good at. But don't whale on the other roles because you haven't given them any real thought.

[Beerbeer]

Forget it. You think I skim...

I never whaled on infantry. You come here with some perfect holistic balance scheme and tell me to learn to play. Please.

You don't know me, you think you do, but you don't.

[Daliahita]

Oh, three bases.


That's just where tanks are not allowed at all. If I wanted to count the ones where tanks can't capture points (because they're inside buildings), that would be pretty much all of them. You forgot to admit that you're wrong, by the way.


A soldier not being as powerful as a tank sure sounds like the tank is superior to the soldier...


Power alone does not equal superiority. NC weapons are more powerful than the other factions in general. Sniper rifles are more powerful than pistols. Learn the difference between something being more powerful, and something being better.


And again, you're missing the point and telling me I'm ignorant without knowing a thing about me and what play style I enjoy is kind of ironic when it comes to ignorance.

You assume a lot...lol.
You TOLD me you only play tanks. You said it. I'm not assuming.

Read my posts. Read your own posts. This is getting frustrating.

[Beerbeer]

Anyways, back on topic.

No one else finds it strange?

And, we've heard opinions that knife against infantry versus tank against infantry is supposed to equal out in the grand scheme of things, when you take into account the macro aspect. Thank you for your thoughts.

[Daliahita]

Forget it. You think I skim...

You pretty much proved it in every post.


I never whaled on infantry. You come here with some perfect holistic balance scheme and tell me to learn to play. Please.

"It's comical how much they don't want us to play infantry."

[OCNSethy]

I dunno man, the only time Ive been knifed was by my own side :(

But I would have thought if you got way close and and personal, it really should be a one-hit kill.

[Beerbeer]

"It's comical how much they don't want us to play infantry."

That statement alone proves my point; you have no idea, but thank you for your thoughts, assumptions and contributions.

[Daliahita]

Anyways, back on topic.

No one else finds it strange?

If you're just looking for people to agree with you that it's weird that tanks are tanks and infantry are infantry, try here:

http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php

That's the official Planetside 2 forum, where people love to point out the obvious, make stupid statements and claim them as facts with no evidence, and they love to avoid actual discussion. You'll fit right in!

[Daliahita]

That statement alone proves my point; you have no idea, but thank you for your thoughts, assumptions and contributions.

I was quoting what you said. Feigning ignorance in a discussion represents evidence of actual ignorance. Good for you.

[Beerbeer]

Wow, are you trolling me? I almost bought it.

[Daliahita]

No, I'm not trolling you. You actually did write that. Check your very first post. Actually read it this time.

[The Messenger]

The current system just makes it much easier to get kills with vehicles. But IMO, it's not the vehicles that are overpowering, it's the vehicles after dumping massive amounts of certs into. This allows many players to use strictly vehicles and barely touch infantry combat. There is no real easy fix with this to the current servers. What they could do is start a test server with vehicles that can't be certed/upgraded. The exception would be the AMS/shield sunderer and MBT special abilities. No repair sunderer and ESPECIALLY no ammo. Force people to leave the frontline to re-arm. SOE would have to shuffle around some re-arm points to make this plausible but it could work.

Less ammo capacity, no defense, or movement upgrades will make things easier for infantry to counter vehicles. And I bet a lot less people will fly an ESF when they have to leave the frontline and re-arm after two volleys of pods. This may fix the defense problem since it would be much easier for defenders to re-arm than those running offense. Those on offense would have to focus on enemy vehicles to help the infantry cap bases.

[WarbirdTD]

I'm gonna jump right into the middle of this hornet's nest! Beerbeer, I understand the frustration with vehicle camping, and I totally agree. But vehicles are not the issue, and therefore the knife comparison doesn't quite work for me. Knives are not 150mm projectiles being flung at close to supersonic speeds, nor are they big blue balls of death (or whatever that vanu shit is). Knives are blades that are probably pretty hard to shove through armor.

Base design itself is the issue. Will you be able to camp certain entrances to any base ever designed? Yes. However, there needs to be enclosed infantry areas so the enemy is forced to get out of the tank in order to fight you. They pretty clearly missed the boat with the outside design of Tech Plants and Amp Stations, but Bio Labs are closer to the mark. Underground, underground, underground. Put the cap points, spawn rooms, and SCU's in an underground area (a la Planetside 1) and you will have some RAUCOUS infantry fights. Unfortunately, nobody's quite sure if their engine can handle so many people in such a confined space, but hell, it'd probably be better than this.

Back to not nerfing vehicles to promote infantry combat... Have you ever shot an AP round at infantry? After 30 seconds of not hitting a Light Assault jerk floating ever closer to your tank with C4 in tow, and finally being blown to bits by said jerk, you will be very, very angry. If they nerf tank round explosion radius, that will be a pretty consistent theme... So who would pull a tank? Just to kill Sunderers or other tanks (that wont exist)? See where I'm going with this? We need a game that has all of these aspects and things are pretty balanced between ground and infantry right now, but promoting inf v inf at the expense of ground vehicles would be a misstep if SOE ever fixes their base design.

Besides, tanks are a bit hard to keep up now that people have caught on to all the different ways to kill them... Tank mines, rocket launchers, C4, ESF rocketpod from behind, Daltons, and Tank busters.

[Chewy]

The current system just makes it much easier to get kills with vehicles. But IMO, it's not the vehicles that are overpowering, it's the vehicles after dumping massive amounts of certs into. This allows many players to use strictly vehicles and barely touch infantry combat. There is no real easy fix with this to the current servers. What they could do is start a test server with vehicles that can't be certed/upgraded. The exception would be the AMS/shield sunderer and MBT special abilities. No repair sunderer and ESPECIALLY no ammo. Force people to leave the frontline to re-arm. SOE would have to shuffle around some re-arm points to make this plausible but it could work.

Less ammo capacity, no defense, or movement upgrades will make things easier for infantry to counter vehicles. And I bet a lot less people will fly an ESF when they have to leave the frontline and re-arm after two volleys of pods. This may fix the defense problem since it would be much easier for defenders to re-arm than those running offense. Those on offense would have to focus on enemy vehicles to help the infantry cap bases.

You have a point about vehicle ammo. Iv put out ideas of limiting the number of spawns an AMS sundy has before having to restock, why not try the same for ammo? Say level one ammo gives 50 resupplies, level 2 100, L3 150, so on and so on. Once resupplies are gone refill them at a slower pace from an ammo tower like 5 at a time.

One reason I think attacking is so overpowering against defending is the unlimited numbers they have and being able to move spawn points (sundy). If spawns and ammo where limited by how many certs you put into an sundy then attackers would have to be MUCH smarter at who/what would go at things. Instead of just bashing ones skull till the bricks fall.

[Beerbeer]

Personally, I have no problems with knives one-shotting. You get in that close on foot, you deserve that intsta-gib. Maybe I'm biased towards my previous experiences with other "FPS" games. You're in a tank 200 m away and one-shot, big freaking deal.

It just seems weird and kind of reaffirms my suspicion of their desire to marginalize and de-emphasize infantry fighting.

[The Messenger]

Speaking of knife kills, does anyone else feel like it was easier in beta? Not the damage but it seems like knifing a moving target is WAY harder.

[Miffy]

They need enemy collision and they need an equipable knife slot.


Quick knives are useless without an animation which locks you into a guaranteed kill. I personally hate that, I just want to be able to run around with a knife and slash away. Sadly Higby said it isn't coming, though they thought about giving it to the infiltrators.

Without enemy collision, you end up running inside each other making knives useless too, though again that ain't coming either.

Like a lot that the game needs that isn't coming.

[Chewy]

Speaking of knife kills, does anyone else feel like it was easier in beta? Not the damage but it seems like knifing a moving target is WAY harder.

Tried tonight to melee a LA as a MAX (dual burster) and failed to land the hit at least 4 times with him on the ground shooting me. Later after I (engie) spent my shotgun mag and went for a knife, but failed to hit for 2 tries.

Both times I was well within reach of the enemy from my point of view but couldn't do anything till I was spooning the bastard and clipping in the model. Never was good at melee in games so that doesn't help, but why do you have to be spooning the guy for a hit? If I had to use a knife on a person it wouldn't be in a grapple. Id shove my blade in unarmored areas like the arm pit or aim for the belt line and gut the man. Both of those can be done at near arms length without risking getting cut by your own blade.

[Soothsayer]

I think having a high lethality knife attack means you need to have a system for defending against it as well.

Then a playstyle for that type of behaviour develops, then the fps is no longer focused on shooting.

That's just what happens when you follow it to it's logical conclusion. It happened real quick with Global Agenda.

[Aurmanite]

I play infantry almost exclusively. I don't understand the OP's problem.

Don't put yourself in position to be vehicle farmed.
Fight on your terms.
Grab a few friends with Decimators/Lock on launchers and blow them tanks apart.

Or, come on PSU and complain about things you have the ability to change.

[Beerbeer]

Never had a dilemma. Just stating a curiosity.

[Aurmanite]

Never had a dilemma. Just stating a curiosity.

I reworded. Dilemma was the first word that popped into my mind. I have a bad habit of just writing whatever and then posting it.

[Beerbeer]

I'm just trying to point to the fact that this game isn't very infantry friendly. Is it a problem? Well for me it is. For others, maybe not and from their perspective, there may be no problem at all.

[Aurmanite]

I'm just trying to point to the fact that this game isn't very infantry friendly. Is it a problem? Well for me it is. For others, maybe not and from their perspective, there may be no problem at all.

There's just a lot of stuff to die from. More so than any other shooter.

I dig the beef people have with spawn room campability, and that there's few places that infantry can do their thing without having to deal with vehicles rolling up and splattering everything that moves. These things need to be improved. Even as it stands now though, there's lots of opportunity for infantry to build up piles of kicked ass. Foot soldiers just have to adapt to the battle they're given.

[Beerbeer]

No, each person has their limits, and I reached mine a while ago. I just got sick of having a nice infantry fight going along, only to get one-shotted by tanks and esfs. The frequency of this only increased as more and more people unlocked vehicle stuff. There's only so much adapting I'm willing to do, and I don't feel like waiting around in bio lab for fights.

No mas, no mas.

[The Messenger]

Even as it stands now though, there's lots of opportunity for infantry to build up piles of kicked ass. Foot soldiers just have to adapt to the battle they're given.

True but it's easy for one fully decked out liberator with a zephyr to destroy the same platoon. That seems to be the chief complaint with a lot of people that play primarily infantry. The majority of these players enjoy the vast amount of choices you can choose to play as. Most likely we find sticking to one thing incredibly monotonous. But then there are players who are hardcore competetive and just want a huge K/D. When they focus on one vehicle type, it tends to dominate. This game leans more towards the latter player which is frustrating those who want the game for what it's truly designed for; the options to run many different play styles. The sad part is, the first gamer type is more likely to stick with the game in the long run while the second is likely to jump ship when they find another game more appealing. Yet the second gamer type is likely to cause the first to quit.

[Beerbeer]

Yeah, vehicle spam is horrendous, and they can all one-shot infantry (while a knife cannot, lol).

And yes, libs are even worse at destroying anything that walks on two feet. One lib can utterly destroy a squad of infantry assaulting from a sunderer. So can a lone tanker or esf for that matter.

[The Messenger]

Yeah, vehicle spam is horrendous, and they can all one-shot infantry (while a knife cannot, lol).

And yes, libs are even worse at destroying anything that walks on two feet. One lib can utterly destroy a squad of infantry assaulting from a sunderer. So can a lone tanker or esf for that matter.

It can destroy an entire platoon's offensive if a zerg doesn't listen when the leader tells them to spawn AA. Saw this happen multiple times this morning on Mattherson. I was in a platoon full of mostly pubs and we pushed the VS all the way back to ceres on two occasions. Then they'd spawn libs and mags and push us back to crossroads. Then we slowly take out all their vehicles and the process started all over gain. Many of the people I saw in vehicles were never on the battlefield unless they were in said vehicle. If you shot the vehicle down, you never saw them again until they brough it back 5-10 minutes later. It's just annoying to never see the same vehicles when the fight is pushed to the center of the map. It's like those players cowar near the warpgate.

I reflected on this today and reached the conclusion that this is actually the way SOE prefers the game. SOE would rather have this "tug-of-war" between all the factions rather than having one dominate completely. This way, it's harder for people to argue who is and isn't underpowered. Bottom line, the closer you get to the enemy warpgate, the more advantageous it is for them. They spawn large amounts of vehicles and since the warpgate is close by they can repair with absolute immunity.