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View Full Version : Crosspost: Canary in the Coal Mine


p0intman
2012-12-28, 12:46 PM
Note: This was originally posted on the official forums by Kedric (http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?members/kedric.117874/) and the post is located here: http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/i-am-your-canary-in-the-coal-mine.72781/

I have edited nothing, but think this deserves some commentary to a bit wider of an audience.
I have seen trends in games in the past and it's easy for me to tell now when a game is going to be successful or not, and whether or not a game has competent management running things.

The current handling of exploiting/cheating in this game is abysmal, and it can and will utterly train wreck what little credibility SOE has left with the wider gaming community. As in, PlanetSide 2 could end up a permanent ghost town just like PlanetSide 1, and even seal the fate of SOE's F2P business completely if not this branch of the company itself.

Right now PAYING CUSTOMERS who have much to lose are being punished unfairly with permanent bans for doing silly stuff like making enemy faction characters to duel with or test game mechanics with. What makes this particularly offensive is the fact that this game is FREE TO PLAY, so the very people who have the most to lose and can thus be kept in line with a simple warning are instead punished the most severely.

This offends me so greatly because of the attitude that it demonstrates on behalf of management. Since management cannot - with their current methods - permanently eradicate the griefing scum who mass kill people with teleportation / god mode hacks, the management instead takes out their frustrations on the very people they should be protecting. This kind of attitude is utterly ineffective and is a clear indication of poor problem solving skills.

Please note that I have no stake in this issue other than my wider concerns for the game, as my account is in good standing and no one I know personally has been banned.

Now let me further cover the major issue of rampant cheating/exploiting that will kill this game and its business model outright if not addressed promptly.

1) Deliberate mass crash bug/exploit.

Currently, there is a bug in the game that can mass crash players in a given area.

This is now being exploited on many servers by many outfits/platoons to take out enemy forces in preparation for an invasion to easily secure the base.

The use of this exploit is reaching epidemic levels on Connery server in particular, and is one of the main reasons I am here posting on the forums instead of enjoying the game.

If exploits of this degree of severity are not fixed in a timely manner now and in the future, then PlanetSide 2 is over. Stick a fork in it, it's done. I've seen bugs and exploits on this level before, and they kill games in their crib when the dev team ignores them.

My entire outfit is pretty upset about this exploit, and now that they know it is 100% a repeatable exploit that is being used to deliberately swing battles in enemy favor they are beside themselves with frustration.

Let me repeat SOE, this will kill your game if you don't fix it ASAP. PRIORTY A-NUMBER ONE.

2) Deliberate mass kill griefing with god mode / teleportation hack.

I'm not talking about the occasional punk who is cheating to win or padding his stats. I'm talking about people who have absolutely no intention of hiding their cheating or operating under a pretense. These griefers are here to do one thing and one thing only: kill people until they quit the game out of frustration. I would not put it past SOE's competition in the MMO world to be deliberately building hacks and trying to ruin their business model. After all, who better to program and use a hack but game creators themselves?

These griefers make explicit and obvious use of teleportation hacks and aimbots, including even god mode now. There is nothing a player can do to respond, you can't kill these punks even with C4 and tank explosions in their face. It is classical God Mode, it is literally that bad. You can even be hunted down in the safe zone / pain fields and killed repeatedly until you leave the continent or log out of the game.

Suffice it to say I have personally experienced this on more than one occasion now and it is rapidly destroying my interest in this game. If you have not yet experienced this behavior yourself, then be thankful, because it is utterly demoralizing to be a paying customer in a game and be relentlessly griefed by a cheater who you cannot retaliate against without any customer support for over an hour on end.

I place this issue as priority number two only because it has not yet reached the widespread epidemic levels that the crashing exploit has. But make no mistake, failing to respond to this issue in a timely manner will most certainly kill PlanetSide 2 and even SOE's entire business model for this game just as assuredly.

Conclusion

It's time to get on the ball SOE. It's make it or break it time, and I'm not going to say this again. Solutions exist to these problems - many of these solutions being posted in this very forum. You need only read and implement them. PlanetSide 2 is an epically wonderful game and I have already given you folks nearly $100 in membership / Station Cash purchases. I feel that this is money well spent even in spite of the current state of the game, because I've enjoyed hours of excellent gameplay already far beyond what any single player game can currently deliver. That said, my continued financial support of this game and indeed any SOE ventures in the future hinges entirely upon your prompt and immediate attention to these issues. Hire people if you need to, fire people if you need to. Get the job done, because there is precious little credibility left for you in the community and these sorts of issues will be the nail in the coffin for your reputation if you don't handle them now.

And that would be a tragedy, because games like PlanetSide 1 and PlanetSide 2 don't come around often.


firstly, the first point about deliberately crashing servers.. is abhorrent. I would very much like to see those responsible, as an outfit, permanently banned. Additionally, they should be actively shunned and ex-communicated. Overloading the servers in order to gain a combat advantage is detestable and is the mark of an inferior player. They are no better, as an outfit and as individual players, than actual hackers who modify their clients to gain advantages.

To the devs that read this forum: Fix this shit, and make a public example out of those that are doing it. Name and shame them.

thegreekboy
2012-12-28, 01:27 PM
Agreed 100 percent

RykerStruvian
2012-12-28, 01:41 PM
I don't mean to be offensive but is it 100% for sure that those crashes on Connery are truly attributed to people actively causing them? I thought it was just coincidence that it would happen whenever we seemed to be doing good in certain fights, like the server itself couldn't handle it but not because people were doing it on purpose. Where is the documentation?

igster
2012-12-28, 01:46 PM
With the number of bugs in this game, I would expect this to be more of a bug than any kind of exploit.

Quite frankly. There is no need for silly hysterical threads like this.

Remeber when the server was crashing every 30 minutes or so and resetting the map.

Was that simply a bug or a conspiracy by the evil hacking megatrolls of impending doom? I know which of these 2 options that was so I don't see that moriarty was the mastermind pulling the strings behind it.

If it is repeatable and has been reported then it should be fairly easy to patch won't it. If it hasnt been reported and isnt repeatable I am damned sure that every crash is investigated by the server side dev team.


BTW no disrespect for anyone posting. Just that with all of the haccusations I've seen lately and throughout the whole 9 years of PS1 I know that there are more accusations of hacking than actual incidents of hacking. There are also some people who cry wolf whenever they get pwned and the only thing their egos can handle are that they were only beaten by someone hacking.

Tatwi
2012-12-28, 01:52 PM
Agreed 100 percent

Yup. People won't play games fraught with cheaters, let alone spend money on them. SOE needs to do better and stop hiding behind the words, "making games is hard". Getting to the moon and back was harder and people did that 40 years ago. It's a matter of will, not skill.

Ghoest9
2012-12-28, 01:55 PM
That is not a very good post obver all - a lot vague and poorly substanciated whines.

That said if there is a crash bug its a big issue and needs attention now.

MrBloodworth
2012-12-28, 02:01 PM
This post sucks. No imperial evidence, but full of damnation. Delusional idea that hacking can just be "Fixed" but they just do not want to? WTH is that?

Chalk full of impotent hysteria. Its like a Fox news Article.

p0intman
2012-12-28, 02:10 PM
tbh, im not too concerned with evidence. If enough eyes get put on it, it will either be outed as true, or debunked solidly as false. Either way, it serves the same end to get the problem fixed. I'd rather act as a magnifying glass to force a resolution, because being reasonable so far has failed to do anything but have fanboys derp about and ridicule otherwise sensible logic.

Note that no names have been named so far, and if its true, and people are using it as a repeatable exploit... it will be made obvious in time, by someone.

Either way, it serves its purpose.

igster
2012-12-28, 02:17 PM
We should perhaps gather evidence about the crashes .. perhaps in this thread to record incidents of these crashes. Maybe it will dispell some myths about faction advantages achieved or alternatively it may provide a pattern of abuse?

Faction / Server / Local Server Time / Impact

Ghoest9
2012-12-28, 02:47 PM
tbh, im not too concerned with evidence. If enough eyes get put on it, it will either be outed as true, or debunked solidly as false. .......


But the post is packed with the normal unsubstantiated rants on a variety supposed problems.
With a random scattershot approach like that people tend o dosmiss the whole thing.

Im assuming that the suggested crash exploit is what you would like to see addressed - it would probably be good idea to point that out so people dont get bogged down with all the other noise in it.

p0intman
2012-12-28, 02:58 PM
But the post is packed with the normal unsubstantiated rants on a variety supposed problems.
With a random scattershot approach like that people tend o dosmiss the whole thing.

Im assuming that the suggested crash exploit is what you would like to see addressed - it would probably be good idea to point that out so people dont get bogged down with all the other noise in it.

do I really need to? I was under the impression that the hacking was so blatant I didnt need to be concerned about it being confused with the actual exploiting problem..

Zoraida
2012-12-28, 03:18 PM
Have you guys heard the news? The sky is falling really hard today.

Hamma
2012-12-28, 03:23 PM
I don't think the cheating issue is unsubstantiated at all. It's another major issue that comes as a result of an early release.

Tatwi
2012-12-28, 03:30 PM
I don't think the cheating issue is unsubstantiated at all. It's another major issue that comes as a result of an early release.

And, to be fair, people purposely not reporting issues they found during beta.

MrBloodworth
2012-12-28, 03:32 PM
I don't think the cheating issue is unsubstantiated at all. It's another major issue that comes as a result of an early release.

unsubstantiated, no. At the level some posts make it out to be, not even close. Its not thunder dome wild west hacking Christmas in game. It just is not.

I was under the impression that the hacking was so blatant

Its not. Nor is at the level thees threads make it out to be.

tbh, im not too concerned with evidence.

Obviously. Lets not let the need for facts or reality get in the way of a good rant. Clearly, they just do not care. Because that's the way games make money, or something. Fight the power, and all that.

Beerbeer
2012-12-28, 05:00 PM
The canary died a few months ago.

I honestly believe Smedly's tweet was more of a reassurance to us, than any veiled threat to the hackers. What's sad is that during that time they did nothing to stem the tide; the hackers are back and rubbing it in Sony's face.

Sledgecrushr
2012-12-28, 05:18 PM
If we arent going to limit ourselves to facts then maybe a career in politics might be right for you.

Beerbeer
2012-12-28, 05:22 PM
That's the same kind of attitude Sony has: arrogance and ignorance.

It's obviously served them well to-date.

Rolfski
2012-12-28, 08:47 PM
It's a drama post about something you can be assured SOE is on top of it.

It's a functional post though.

Saintlycow
2012-12-28, 09:32 PM
Whatever it is, there are massive crash issues in this game still. 2 squads dropped out, relogged only to find the enemy still in the same positions.

Graywolves
2012-12-29, 02:33 AM
This hacker my outfit and a number of others reported a few weeks ago showed up again today.

There was also this guy at the crown a few nights ago who was shooting at TR from inside the rocks at two different locations over the course of 2 hours.



While I will experience mass crashes and joke about the server not being able to take how awesome we are, I think concluding that someone causing that is difficult to do. I don't doubt the possibility of it though.


We know Smedley takes this very seriously and that they are hunting hackers/exploiters. But it still remains an issue for now.

MrBloodworth
2012-12-29, 12:16 PM
That's the same kind of attitude Sony has: arrogance and ignorance.

It's obviously served them well to-date.

http://blogs.desmoinesregister.com/dmr/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/tin-foil-hat.jpg

In what reality would a development company ignore something like this? That's got to be the most retarded conclusion I have ever read.

Combating hacking is an ongoing process, and its not as prevalent as some try to make it out to be. Some gamers, need some real perspective, its ridiculous some of the accusations. Pure Fantasy and ignorance.

Pro tip: Just because someone made another post on the forms, does not make time go faster.

Beerbeer
2012-12-29, 12:23 PM
http://blogs.desmoinesregister.com/dmr/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/tin-foil-hat.jpg

In what reality would a development company ignore something like this? That's got to be the most retarded conclusion I have ever read.

Combating hacking is an ongoing process, and its not as prevalent as some try to make it out to be. Some gamers, need some real perspective, its ridiculous some of the accusations. Pure Fantasy and ignorance.

Pro tip: Just because someone made another post on the forms, does not make time go faster.

That's great. Another factual post that belongs in politics.

Frotang
2012-12-29, 02:01 PM
Im not going to pretend to understand how server crashes occur but its hard to ignore the multiple times our outfit has entirely crashed while almost capping a base where the enemy is putting up some resistance but not organized. We all re log and get back to the area and low and behold the enemy faction has surmounted a sizable and organized re secure effort and the base is lost, this happens on almost a nightly basis. Now it could be coincidence but it could be some tom foolery going on! An outfit mate was stating that its possible to overload the server in a certain area and have that "node" crash. Not sure if that's possible in this game but in pretty sure it was done in PS1 by placing hundreds of boomers and overloading the server, that is one reason why they made limits on explosives placed eventually.

bpostal
2012-12-29, 02:10 PM
Im not going to pretend to understand how server crashes occur but its hard to ignore the multiple times our outfit has entirely crashed while almost capping a base where the enemy is putting up some resistance but not organized. We all re log and get back to the area and low and behold the enemy faction has surmounted a sizable and organized re secure effort and the base is lost, this happens on almost a nightly basis. Now it could be coincidence but it could be some tom foolery going on! An outfit mate was stating that its possible to overload the server in a certain area and have that "node" crash. Not sure if that's possible in this game but in pretty sure it was done in PS1 by placing hundreds of boomers and overloading the server, that is one reason why they made limits on explosives placed eventually.

I would imagine that the server logs, when something like this happens, are rather unique.

Beerbeer
2012-12-29, 02:18 PM
The reason for my cynicism is that I remember in beta people posting and warning about hackers and exploiters. I'll be honest, I was a skeptic back then and assumed Sony had something planned BEFORE the game was released. I just couldn't imagine they would allow it to happen.

Those posters were right and I was naive at the time. Can't remember who they were or even if they still post here, but they hit the nail on the head.

And by Sony "ignoring" the issue though either not caring or incompetence is arrogance and ignorance one way or the other in my book.

MrBloodworth
2012-12-29, 11:52 PM
The reason for my cynicism is that I remember in beta people posting and warning about hackers and exploiters. I'll be honest, I was a skeptic back then and assumed Sony had something planned BEFORE the game was released. I just couldn't imagine they would allow it to happen.

Those posters were right and I was naive at the time. Can't remember who they were or even if they still post here, but they hit the nail on the head.

And by Sony "ignoring" the issue though either not caring or incompetence is arrogance and ignorance one way or the other in my book.

Then your book needs to be rewritten.

Show me a game that has no hacks, nor anyone posting about the impending apocalypse of hacking while its in beta, and ill show you a game that was never released.

Obviously, hacking is simple to solve, they just don't care! :rolleyes:

Pro tip: Just because someone made another post on the forms, does not make time go faster.

Beerbeer
2012-12-30, 12:01 AM
That's a good response, but I've never seen so much overt hacking, either in-person or blatantly advertised, like this game.

In all my hours playing cod, moh or BF, I've never personally witnessed as many hackers as this game, and considering the time comparison is years versus one month, that says something.

But continuing being ignorant.

MrBloodworth
2012-12-30, 12:07 AM
Did I say there are no hacks? Nope. However, the assertion that they do not care, is beyond retarded.

That's not ignorance, that's called being real. Instead of a hyperbole fairy.

Beerbeer
2012-12-30, 12:10 AM
Re-read my post. Caring and being incompetent is the same thing as not caring, because both produce the same results.

Really, those other games probably had a better deterrence than this game and I say that out of experience (see above).

MrBloodworth
2012-12-30, 12:12 AM
Caring and being incompetent is the same thing as not caring

I would love to visit this fantasy land of yours one day.

Beerbeer
2012-12-30, 12:14 AM
Well, ditto I guess.

Beerbeer
2012-12-30, 12:16 AM
I have a question. Why are you being do defensive about the obvious? Why does it bother you?

MrBloodworth
2012-12-30, 12:18 AM
I Have already said what bothers me.

Beerbeer
2012-12-30, 12:21 AM
What is it? Be explicit.

RykerStruvian
2012-12-30, 01:52 AM
I don't think it is even possible to stop the hackers without being intrusive. Some people would rather have privacy than have a program, hidden, monitoring for hacks. Outside of that I really don't think there is a way to stop hackers as any sort of patch to fix exploits would eventually be circumvented. Besides, I thought most hacking programs run after the program was launched, like editing values of an active program?

I'm not too sure, I've never really used hacks before so I'm unfamiliar with them.

AThreatToYou
2012-12-30, 01:59 AM
FYI, intentional game-lock up bug abused by TR is real. Occurs on Jeager server far too often now.
No offense to TR as a whole but it is being abused horribly.

p0intman
2013-01-01, 01:20 AM
hey check that out~
https://twitter.com/mhigby/status/285990168022904833

Hmr85
2013-01-01, 01:48 AM
If this mass crash thing is indeed a exploit then I find it disgusting that some Outfits out there on Connery are exploiting it to their benefit.

Outfit X has had this crash happen to us numerous times we have been on defense and it seems to be every single time we face off against a select few TR outfits on Connery. As soon as I can verify who is doing this I will call out those outfits who are abusing this exploit.

p0intman
2013-01-01, 03:41 AM
if you have outfit names, just send them to higby and they can track it down manually. it'll be harder, but since they have people watching apparently, this could be a good use of it.

Blynd
2013-01-01, 01:06 PM
I've com across this once before in Age Of Conan where the bad seige mechanic was exploited by one guild who didn't want to loose their pvp buffs from their battle keep and so would activly crash every seige on Crom server. The guild in question continued to brag how amazing they were when they used that if they were defending an if they were attacking they used 2 exploits to gain an advantge there too.

Funcom did nothing to stop it but that said soe have done more in 2 months against exploits and hackers then funcom have in 4years