Why A2A is a waste of time.

[Tooterfish]

I think we can all agree that the ESF Pods are a huge problem for infantry right now. It has been said over and over that Air is the superior counter to air. I do not want to start a new debate about this, but I would like to point something out.

Right now, if you spec A2A, you are essentially playing a charitable role for your team. I am exclusively A2A. I can wipe out squads of ESF's with little effort, as many of you probably can also. The problem with being responsible for taking out other ESF's for my infantry buddies, is that I can go all day long without earning one kill. I have brought it up in the past, and I'm bringing it up again now, because I think that by allowing people to continuously suicide when they realize they've been beat is a huge discouraging factor to blowing certs and/or money into being an effective interceptor. This is especially true, considering how a pod ESF can farm infantry all day long, and these folks (infantry) can not simply self-destruct, thus they (pod'ers) benefit greatly.

If the counter to ESF is another ESF, then we need to consider, seriously, rewarding blatant suicides with cert gain and a kill point to us A2A guys. I really do think that more people will be attracted to this role in the game, and Air will be more about tactics than farming.

[ShadetheDruid]

Yeah, they really need to do something about people being able to bail out any time they like. Even something as simple as not letting you get out unless you've landed, or even disabling bailing if you've taking 50% or more damage.

The former would have the advantage of stopping accidental bail outs too.

Edit: That said, I still find A2A combat fun regardless of annoying suiciders.

[Sunrock]

I think we can all agree that the ESF Pods are a huge problem for infantry right now. It has been said over and over that Air is the superior counter to air. I do not want to start a new debate about this, but I would like to point something out.

Right now, if you spec A2A, you are essentially playing a charitable role for your team. I am exclusively A2A. I can wipe out squads of ESF's with little effort, as many of you probably can also. The problem with being responsible for taking out other ESF's for my infantry buddies, is that I can go all day long without earning one kill. I have brought it up in the past, and I'm bringing it up again now, because I think that by allowing people to continuously suicide when they realize they've been beat is a huge discouraging factor to blowing certs and/or money into being an effective interceptor. This is especially true, considering how a pod ESF can farm infantry all day long, and these folks (infantry) can not simple self-destruct, thus they (pod'ers) benefit greatly.

If the counter to ESF is another ESF, then we need to consider, seriously, rewarding blatant suicides with cert gain and a kill point to us A2A guys. I really do think that more people will be attracted to this role in the game, and Air will be more about tactics than farming.

I know it's frustrating to just get assist kill on the ESF it self as it crash into the ground. But I don't see a solution to get reward for the kill as I believe it should be a viable tactic to eject.

But what is most important is the exp you get for your work. So I think it might be a better idea to up the exp for killing ESF's with 100 exp.

BTW as a Lib pilot you never get any more kills then an A2A ESF either...

[ShadetheDruid]

But I don't see a solution to get reward for the kill as I believe it should be a viable tactic to eject.

Well, there is that ejection seat cert sitting there unused because you can just jump out any time. If people really wanted to eject and do epic things (in the event of a change where you can't just do it all the time), they could take that.

[Redshift]

Well, there is that ejection seat cert sitting there unused because you can just jump out any time. If people really wanted to eject and do epic things (in the event of a change where you can't just do it all the time), they could take that.


I agree with this, don't let pilots bail without the cert, that kinda makes sense, since bailing as a pilot is pretty much suicide anyway.

I'd keep bailing for passengers without a cert as it's handy for lib gunners to hop out to repair before the wheels touch down,

[Baptist]

I posted off topic so moving it to a different thread sorry.

[Baptist]

P.s. I'm a tit I posted this in the wrong thread....

[Sunrock]

This is the way we choose to play the game, and this is the solution to the problem we found, although there are still far to many Tanks and aircraft in this game in my opinion.

Shout out to all the Miller NC!

You can play the game as you like. But if you don't want to take full advantage of your arsenal its your problem if you run into trouble.

Best thing about this game is all the vehicles and anyone that try to lobby SOE to change that is going to have a debate with me.

Of course infantry has it's place in the the game but it's not the most important factor that has to be in the focus.

[Yuzral]

The point of the ejector seat is that you don't inherit the momentum from the aircraft and gravity is temporarily persuaded to look the other way (same way as a Gal drop) so even if you didn't pack LA you probably won't wind up smeared across the landscape. The response of whoever just shot you down is still your problem to solve though.

I'd be in favour of saying 'no leaving an ESF doing more than 150kph without an ejector seat' and upping the xp for an ESF destruction though.

[Sunrock]

I'd be in favour of saying 'no leaving an ESF doing more than 150kph without an ejector seat' and upping the xp for an ESF destruction though.

That might be a good idea....

[Captain1nsaneo]

I'd be in favour of saying 'no leaving an ESF doing more than 150kph without an ejector seat' and upping the xp for an ESF destruction though.

Eh, xp doesn't make that much of a difference for their destruction because you can't increase it to the point that it makes people really go into it for the xp without hurting other aspects of the game because the increase would be so much to get the action you want. I'm definitely on board with the ejection seat needed for bailing if you're going over a certain speed though. Also there needs to be a negative side effect for equipping any type of missile system simply because they're both currently straight upgrades to the aircraft rather than sidegrades.

[Rolfski]

Hi I'm Baptist an Officer in Consortium an Outfit which plays NC on Miller, I read these forums everyday before work and after, but I don't think I've posted anything as of yet.

My Outfit was having a hard time Vs Aircraft and the Tank spam primarily because we are an Infantry based Outfit, during ops we only pull Galaxies and Sunderers.
Our squad composition was two medics two engineers and the rest heavy with one infiltrator to hack terminals.
We run with around 5-7 squads on an Ops night which we do six days a week, the reason I say all this is we'd chosen the hard path, I come on here sometimes to look at the solutions to our problems against Air dominating us and all I read was flames about how we should get ESF's.

And before you all shout get Air Max's you've no Air Max's in your Squad comp, it's because they're situational, squad leaders would relay commands for certain heavy assaults to change to AA Max, or if the situation was bad the command would come from the Op's commander for a full Talon (Squad) to change to meet the threat.
Still Lib's wiped the floor with us, until two days ago, I'm happy to say we no longer have a problem with air, every Consortium member who is heavy Assault now has an Annihilator, and oh my god how it makes a difference, we are a very organized outfit you have to have a large level of organization to tell people they're NOT allowed to pull tanks whenever they want to, and NOT allowed ESF's at the drop of the hat, so one person shouting out single targets for 7 heavy assaults to is a piece of piss.

This is the way we choose to play the game, and this is the solution to the problem we found, although there are still far to many Tanks and aircraft in this game in my opinion.

Shout out to all the Miller NC!
To me it seems you wanted to post this in this thread (http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=51604), and yes, Annihilators are a good team-only A2G solution.

As for pilot ejection, it's a total viable and logical action. I actually prefer the ejection seat to be standard/uncertable as it seems to make more sense to me to score a vehicle disable kill when a pilot bails out plus a player kill if you shoot the ejecting pilot out of the sky.

The mid-air deconstruction option sucks though and I'm sure they will patch this.

[ShadetheDruid]

Also there needs to be a negative side effect for equipping any type of missile system simply because they're both currently straight upgrades to the aircraft rather than sidegrades.

If we could cert into/improve our afterburners (the extra tanks, I mean), that would definitely make them a more attractive proposition to some than missiles/rockets.

[yadda]

They should reward additional exp to the attacker of a person who suicide just to spite them. I'm not sure what to call it, something that tells the attacker that their victim panicked and jumped out of their vehicle to their death.

Also, vehicle deconstructing isn't just air. Iv had it happen several times trying to destroy sunderers. HE rounds are pretty bad on armor and Iv had several people deconstruct on me when they knew they couldn't shake me. It's VERY frustrating and scummy.

[Tooterfish]

I don't necessarily agree that bailing or suicides should result in humiliation or punishment. Nothing needs to change at all. You can still jump out of your ESF, fly into a mountain, whatever you want. I hate to say it, but if you have played Battlefield 3 you may have noticed that this type of griefing is discouraged by rewarding your pursuer, or anyone attacking you during your suicide to score a kill point off of you. As a result, people fight until the end, as they should, or they eject safely, which is why we have that option in certs. Somebody please explain to me how this is a bad idea in any way.

[Phreec]

I feel no sympathy for your denied kills if you're a A2A missile user. If you're a dogfighter I feel your pain as it actually requires more effort than point-n-clicking half the HP away.

[yadda]

I don't necessarily agree that bailing or suicides should result in humiliation or punishment. Nothing needs to change at all. You can still jump out of your ESF, fly into a mountain, whatever you want. I hate to say it, but if you have played Battlefield 3 you may have noticed that this type of griefing is discouraged by rewarding your pursuer, or anyone attacking you during your suicide to score a kill point off of you. As a result, people fight until the end, as they should, or they eject safely, which is why we have that option in certs. Somebody please explain to me how this is a bad idea in any way.

The problem is; many people eject on purpose specifically so you aren't rewarded. If they panic and eject to their death then they deserve to be humiliated and the attacker should get an exp bonus. That way their choices are to die with their vehicle or land safe and repair. None of this spiteful "He didn't beat me in fair combat, he doesnt deserve exp!" bullshit.

I'm not even a pilot I'm just disgusted by this behavior. Iv never deconstructed my tank. In fact, when I know I'm going to lose it I boost and send it on its way and run off in the other direction. I FREQUENTLY lose my tank but very rarely lose my life or suicide.

edit: I think I misread your post, you were agreeing by disagreeing?

[HiroshiChugi]

I agree with this, don't let pilots bail without the cert, that kinda makes sense, since bailing as a pilot is pretty much suicide anyway.

I'd keep bailing for passengers without a cert as it's handy for lib gunners to hop out to repair before the wheels touch down,

It's not necessarily suicide if you're a Light Assault class. Just learn to use your jet pack at the right time, that's why you'll always find me as a Light Assault class when piloting a Reaver or a Liborator.

BTW as a Lib pilot you never get any more kills then an A2A ESF either...

Yes you do if you have a good gunner and/or pilot.

[Sunrock]

Eh, xp doesn't make that much of a difference for their destruction because you can't increase it to the point that it makes people really go into it for the xp without hurting other aspects of the game because the increase would be so much to get the action you want. I'm definitely on board with the ejection seat needed for bailing if you're going over a certain speed though. Also there needs to be a negative side effect for equipping any type of missile system simply because they're both currently straight upgrades to the aircraft rather than sidegrades.

This games needs to have more upgrades then side grades though... But I think upgrades should only be able to unlocked through game play.

[Sunrock]

Yes you do if you have a good gunner and/or pilot.

No you don't get the kill. You only get the gunner assist exp.

[KaskaMatej]

I've also seen a lot of pilots deconstruct his ESF (or any other vehicle for that matter) so your effort in destroying said vehicle would be a grand total of 0 XP.

Deconstruction of your vehicle also bails you out so even if you make a "you can't bail if you don't cert in the ejection seat or have landed" people will just do that.

They should also make a timer for deconstruction, like 10 seconds from the last time your vehicle took any damage you can do that.

[Mox]

A2A is for dogfight fun and not for xp atm. Thats bad because A2A could brake the supriority of the ESFs pods. People should benefit more for fitting tomcats.

[Beerbeer]

Simplest solution: stop doing it if it frustrates you.

Either pod up and blast away or continue to let others rub it in your face by bailing out. I bail out as well and I applaud others who do it.

[Tatwi]

please explain to me how this is a bad idea in any way.
Bailing makes you angry. You're my enemy. I like to make you angry. Learn to kill faster. Bailing is fine.

Ps. One of the Ms in MMO means it's not all about you and your xp. Want more xp? Do something more xp efficient. Rocket science, I know.

[Timey]

1) a2a takes no skill to use. None.

2) if they suicide, send them angry an /tell. that will show them.

3) I always eject if I know I can't make the landing. Sometimes I land on a hill or whatnot and survive

[Beerbeer]

Exactly.

People bail out a lot because they know it will piss off the other guy. Schadenfreude.

Either don't let it bother you, don't do activities where it can affect you or, like Timey said, send them hate tells to prove to them that it worked, reinforcing their activities.

It's an unfair world, and like Sony would say, adapt or quit.

[Frotang]

Very simple solution to this, taken straight from CoD games. If a person suicides the kill count/ exp is given to the last enemy who injured them. This solves the bailing issue bc you'll still get a kill from them, it would also help for infantry who suicide. Now if the person has healed / repaired back to 100% or never taken enemy damage then it would count as a normal suicide. Also in PS1 there was a damage limit that prevented you from bailing an air vehicle if you had a certain percent of vehicle hp left (like 15% or below and you cant bail). Just add these things to the long long list of blatantly obvious tools the game should have contained well before "launch".

[Tatwi]

Very simple solution to this, taken straight from CoD games. If a person suicides the kill count/ exp is given to the last enemy who injured them. This solves the bailing issue bc you'll still get a kill from them, it would also help for infantry who suicide. Now if the person has healed / repaired back to 100% or never taken enemy damage then it would count as a normal suicide. Also in PS1 there was a damage limit that prevented you from bailing an air vehicle if you had a certain percent of vehicle hp left (like 15% or below and you cant bail). Just add these things to the long long list of blatantly obvious tools the game should have contained well before "launch".

Because the game needs to cater to cry babies who aren't skillful enough to get the kill on their own, amirite....

[Miffy]

A2A missles suck

*Fire Missle*
*They flare*
*by the time you can fire another they've probably made it into their own territory meaning you have to get out of there*

If you just use the chain gun you can kill them in seconds.

[Tooterfish]

For ESF pilots who are down-right lousy, this is true. It is common to find yourself in a dogfighting situation in which both parties know a thing or two about maneuvering. In this case, no, it isn't that easy. The dogfight will typically end in one pilot nose-diving into the ground or jumping out when the vehicle health reaches critical level. To address whether or not I'm quick enough or good enough being a factor to their having time to crash in the ground is not applicable in Indar, where the ground is never hard to run into within a couple seconds. Also, on the topic of making people mad as a sensible reason to argue my point I will say this: by allowing the defeated pilot to have that satisfaction while irritating the victor is a problem in game design.

[maradine]

Sometimes the bandit gets away into their AA screen. I'm disappointed.

Sometimes the bandit ejects and I don't have the luxury of coming about and shooting up the pilot. I get the vehicle destruction, so that's something.

And sometimes I time the turbolaser volley perfectly and they don't have time to get their finger anywhere near whatever they've remapped "eject" to. I smile at the kill notification and return home to rearm.

This is air combat. Should it be any other way?

[maradine]

Spoiler alert: No, it shouldn't.

[Saintlycow]

How about I make a suicide macro, and use it anytime i'm infantry and see some rocketpods.

How about when there is a liberator bombing us.

Magriders are op, lets use the suicide macro to deny it exp.


The issue is larger than just air to air missiles. It's about sore losers denying others of Exp.

getting kills is easier if you use the missiles as a first volley, then use the turbolaser equivalent to finish them off.

[NewSith]

How about I make a suicide macro, and use it anytime i'm infantry and see some rocketpods.

How about when there is a liberator bombing us.

Magriders are op, lets use the suicide macro to deny it exp.


The issue is larger than just air to air missiles. It's about sore losers denying others of Exp.

getting kills is easier if you use the missiles as a first volley, then use the turbolaser equivalent to finish them off.

I never bail out even if I am severly damaged, but, seriously, this is beyond measure. You are getting kill assists even if opposite Empire kills a guy, I'm not even mentioning him killing himself or his vehicle. I find this particular claim to be pure whining.

[Badlizzard]

lol, so we are pretending that as ESF pilots we don't get enough XP? Surely this thread needs a /sarcasm at the end of it, you can't be serious.

[ShadetheDruid]

lol, so we are pretending that as ESF pilots we don't get enough XP? Surely this thread needs a /sarcasm at the end of it, you can't be serious.

Not everyone flying an ESF uses rocket pods.

[Miffy]

Why don't people use the A.I chaingun? It is amazing against infantry (obviously) like a second burst and it kills infantry instantly, it is so OP because one clip and you kill MAX units too which should be strong against it.

[Tooterfish]

Not everyone flying an ESF uses rocket pods.

Right, podders can irritate and harass infantry all day long, but the moment a podder is being harassed by my AA ESF, all of a sudden missiles are OP and nose diving into the ground to deny my XP, certs and kill serves me right. It is no wonder why 9 out of 10 ESF's are equipped with pods, and very little is being done to balance it; it doesn't make sense to outfit your ESF to earn 3% of what you could be earning with pods.

[Sunrock]

lol, so we are pretending that as ESF pilots we don't get enough XP? Surely this thread needs a /sarcasm at the end of it, you can't be serious.

Of course you get good exp if you attack ground targets. But we are talking strictly exp for dogfighting other ESF here.

[Sunrock]

Why don't people use the A.I chaingun? It is amazing against infantry (obviously) like a second burst and it kills infantry instantly, it is so OP because one clip and you kill MAX units too which should be strong against it.

Yea, IMO the A2A nose gun can some times be more deadly then rocket pods.

[Ysanne]

I used to fly air to air only. But if you want to have a few certs to spend on your aircraft, you have to find other ways to get them.

Being usefull as A 2 A means you often do not even get the basecap xp, since you have been trying to chase the enemy off in the wrong moment.

I have seen quite often a bunch of ESFs with pods and an enemy Liberator between them, leaving each other in peace, since aiming for the infantry is much more worth the shot.

Mostly because infantry can not jump out of their pants. But also due to the fact that damaging a vehicle is not rewarded properly. The balancing is ok, but you have to reward the players properly. Only few will go anti air just for being usefull only and see the others getting the xp instead.

[ElementalFiend]

I don't really have a problem with it. Its happened to me a lot but its never really bothered me. I guess it is just satisfying to see the aircraft explode and know that I was superior in that dogfight.

I've never purposefully suicided, but if I run out of options I may try to ram another ESF. Sometimes it happens by accident when I try to go for a quick landing and repair.

I don't think it is a waste of time at all. But then again I don't fly A2A exclusively, and I'm not sure why anyone would want to. Air fighting has a long ways to go before it is anywhere near as engaging as the ground fight. Right now you either snipe your enemy from afar, or you hope you can hover in place and turn faster. Thats it.

[ElementalFiend]

1) a2a takes no skill to use. None.

2) if they suicide, send them angry an /tell. that will show them.

3) I always eject if I know I can't make the landing. Sometimes I land on a hill or whatnot and survive

I thought the same at first back in beta. But that isn't true anymore. AA missiles are only a strong advantage against an ESF that isn't running flares ( and who does that? ). 9 times out of 10 it comes down to the nosegun.

The LOCK warning does seem to help send enemies into a panic. But for the most part missiles are very easy to dodge even without flares. By the time their flare has worn off chances are the fight has progressed far from its original point, most often deep into enemy lines.

When I fly A2A most of my kills are from my hailstorm. If it is a missile that gets the kill it is because I needed to break away from the fight and I got lucky that my last missile tracked him.

[Thunderhawk]

Being able to cert into the ESF being on a 5 min cooldown makes this argument irrelevant.

You go A2G, you see that enemy has a lot of air, you get anoher ESF with A2A, when skies are clear you go back to A2G ..... its not rocket science.

[maradine]

Everyone acknowledges intellectually that some things will be less cert efficient than others. No one wants their pet issue to be the dog.

A big shrug, guys. Fly for the love. Do something else part time if the cert rate bothers you.

While we're on the topic, everyone knows that flares only hold off the first missile volley, right? Even a maxed out flare cert. If you're in the saddle, your next one's going through, and you've had 3 full TL bursts in between.