i dont really care if air is somehow balanced by dual bursts - its not fun.

[Ghoest9]

This game is about having fun.

When I want to play infantry being forced into a max suit that is only good at anti-air (and even then not getting actual kills) - just isnt fun.

If this was something occasionally required it would be fine but over 3/4s of the time on the battlefield air is the dominate issue.
I dont enjoy having the majority of my game play experience dictated by a relative few pilots.

Yes I find ways to avoid them that leads to the second problem in the game - there rather few ground based battles over half the players are ghosr caping , ninjaing and fighting in bio domes.


I think air is over powered - but its kind of beside the point - if air is ruining the fun for most of the players(and its definitely what my friends who mostly stopped playing complained about) then air is ruining the game.

[MgFalcon]

Air is OP, and a good amount of this is due to the tree population (AKA: concealable cover). We need a Ceryschen-like Continent with big wooden/swampy areas where infantry is the key player. One there is cover rocket pods will be as useful as shooting rubber bullets.

We need more trees!

[RobUK]

Air is OP, and a good amount of this is due to the tree population (AKA: concealable cover). We need a Ceryschen-like Continent with big wooden/swampy areas where infantry is the key player. One there is cover rocket pods will be as useful as shooting rubber bullets.

We need more trees!

Not many trees on Ceryshen :D

Lots on Hossin though. Forseral has a few too but the swampy forests of Hossin would indeed be welcome in Planetside 2.

[robocpf1]

Lately my outfit's been dedicating about 5 people to air denial. The exp is great, I generally head up that squad myself. 3-5 bursters and an engineer to drive the bus and repair, no aircraft is safe.

I definitely see your point though - if we DON'T have that squad up, air pelts us with so many rockets it's impossible to move forward.

[maradine]

I consider it a mandatory part of any force package. I can see how a pile of solos would be caught pants-down, though.

[gunshooter]

Lately my outfit's been dedicating about 5 people to air denial. The exp is great, I generally head up that squad myself. 3-5 bursters and an engineer to drive the bus and repair, no aircraft is safe.

I definitely see your point though - if we DON'T have that squad up, air pelts us with so many rockets it's impossible to move forward.

Exp is great for the engineer, not so much the bursters. If you think it's good exp then you probably haven't ever seen what good exp is.

[WarbirdTD]

This game is about teamwork. If you do not have a defense against a large aspect of the game, you're going to die, and that's exactly the way it should be. During tech test, AA was waaaaay overpowered, and it seems like people want a return to no aircraft in this game. That means more tanks, and a vicious cycle of "ermagerd, we're being farmed by a billion tanks and we can't do anything about it" begins. Air superiority in ANY combat theater wins. If you don't have it because you "don't want to play that way," well... sorry, but if you don't even want to save yourself from dying 5 times, that's your problem, not the game's.

Anti-air is currently balanced perfectly (AA shoulder-mounted rocket launchers might be a bit busted by reports) because when used in a team, AA is terrifying. You cannot buff AA maxes now, or you seriously risk destroying G2A balance, because people will still use them in teams after a big buff, thereby taking away an entire aspect of a combat simulation game (air vehicles).

It seems more and more that there are people that just are not cut out for this game, and that's ok. The point of the game is to have a huge array of different tactics available to destroy a large opposing force, AND to be able to out-think your enemy's force. Now, I can understand wanting different base design to accommodate infantry fighting, and I agree completely. I hate being farmed between spawn and control point at tech plants (now) and amp stations. What I don't understand is this demand for nerfing this or that without any regard as to what it would do to balance nor what it would do the longevity of the game.

[Beerbeer]

Or more antennas, all over the place, and barrage balloons. Forget the trees.

[gunshooter]

This game is about teamwork. If you do not have a defense against a large aspect of the game, you're going to die, and that's exactly the way it should be. During tech test, AA was waaaaay overpowered, and it seems like people want a return to no aircraft in this game. That means more tanks, and a vicious cycle of "ermagerd, we're being farmed by a billion tanks and we can't do anything about it" begins. Air superiority in ANY combat theater wins. If you don't have it because you "don't want to play that way," well... sorry, but if you don't even want to save yourself from dying 5 times, that's your problem, not the game's.

Anti-air is currently balanced perfectly (AA shoulder-mounted rocket launchers might be a bit busted by reports) because when used in a team, AA is terrifying. You cannot buff AA maxes now, or you seriously risk destroying G2A balance, because people will still use them in teams after a big buff, thereby taking away an entire aspect of a combat simulation game (air vehicles).

It seems more and more that there are people that just are not cut out for this game, and that's ok. The point of the game is to have a huge array of different tactics available to destroy a large opposing force, AND to be able to out-think your enemy's force. Now, I can understand wanting different base design to accommodate infantry fighting, and I agree completely. I hate being farmed between spawn and control point at tech plants (now) and amp stations. What I don't understand is this demand for nerfing this or that without any regard as to what it would do to balance nor what it would do the longevity of the game.


The *ONLY* reason that Bursters MAXes are good is the infantry render radius. If it ever gets fixed (i'd be surprised if such an awful, arbitrary mechanic is not eventually changed) air will be entirely uncounterable from the ground. The only thing that makes a group of bursters so effective is the fact that Libs have to play risky in order to bomb them.

[TehCandyMan]

This game is about having fun.

When I want to play infantry being forced into a max suit that is only good at anti-air (and even then not getting actual kills) - just isnt fun.

If this was something occasionally required it would be fine but over 3/4s of the time on the battlefield air is the dominate issue.
I dont enjoy having the majority of my game play experience dictated by a relative few pilots.

Yes I find ways to avoid them that leads to the second problem in the game - there rather few ground based battles over half the players are ghosr caping , ninjaing and fighting in bio domes.


I think air is over powered - but its kind of beside the point - if air is ruining the fun for most of the players(and its definitely what my friends who mostly stopped playing complained about) then air is ruining the game.

Man I feel you this version of Planetside is nowhere near as fun as the first and that has alot to do with Vehicle Domination.

The first Planetside had me for alteast a year and a half before I felt burnt out, this one im burnt out after the first month...

I have dropped about 90 dollars on this game so far and starting to regreat all of it. SOE needs to address this issue in a major way quickly before alot of people that feel the same way we do, LEAVE.

[Vashyo]

I think air vs AA is fine atm, problem is the easy accessibility to vehicles. The penalty of losing an ESF isn't very steep. You're back in air in no time, and you can even decrease the acquisition times so you can roll a new ESF over and over.

Also its not very rewarding to do AA, it's pretty much charity work for no purpose whatsoever because of the accessibility. You're not going to effect the battle much by destroying one plane when that same guy is back inside a new plane in a minute.

[Sledgecrushr]

This game is about having fun.

When I want to play infantry being forced into a max suit that is only good at anti-air (and even then not getting actual kills) - just isnt fun.

If this was something occasionally required it would be fine but over 3/4s of the time on the battlefield air is the dominate issue.
I dont enjoy having the majority of my game play experience dictated by a relative few pilots.

Yes I find ways to avoid them that leads to the second problem in the game - there rather few ground based battles over half the players are ghosr caping , ninjaing and fighting in bio domes.


I think air is over powered - but its kind of beside the point - if air is ruining the fun for most of the players(and its definitely what my friends who mostly stopped playing complained about) then air is ruining the game.

Air is just rediculous right now. Its a manpower resource hog to keep air from dominating your squad. The devs need to tone down airside 2.

[Chewy]

I main a support player. That means I ONLY play medic, engie, or AA MAX with some vehicle play as sundy, skyguard, or transport gal. My goal of support is to make others better at what they do. Heals, ammo, transport, anything that gives my guys a better chance at winning. That equals to me not being able to go for kills and often sitting back doing "bitch work". Medic, engie, and sundy work can pay great in XP if you find a place it's needed. Transport and AA on the other pay next to nothing no matter where it is.

There's a reason I call support "bitch work". It's the most thankless job one can do and no game ever pays well while doing it, but at the same time it's a VITAL part to winning. Why is that? Support players have to risk their asses time after time to do what can be the most dangerous jobs on the field, but don't get payed near as much as the ones doing the killing.

[Beerbeer]

I bet if Sony just got rid of infantry, this game would be better.

Turn this game into a world of tanks with airplanes. Tanks capture, airplanes destroy.

This would fix the balance equation that Sony has no idea how to fix, let alone if they want to fix it. Chop off the cancer and move forward.

Drastic? Yes. But necessary because the typical, mass FPS player is not coming back, and if you try to entice them at this point, you're going to piss off the only people left playing this game.

[Whiteagle]

I think the best idea I've heard so far is to reduce the Experiance given by Vehicle weapon Infantry kills, and possibly give experience based on DOING damage to Vehicles instead of just assist and kills.

After all, if a Tank or Plane give experience for being repaired, shouldn't the guy who damaged it get a cut as well?

[SixShooter]

Dual Bursters are pretty decent and a group of them is pretty awesome, killing air left and right. What they really need to do is fix the Skygaurd. The Skygaurd was supposed to be the best AA in the game according to some of the old interviews with the devs. Now it's completely useless even in groups and not even comparable to dual bursters. Give the Skygaurd back its teeth.
:cheers:

[Chewy]

Dual Bursters are pretty decent and a group of them is pretty awesome, killing air left and right. What they really need to do is fix the Skygaurd. The Skygaurd was supposed to be the best AA in the game according to some of the old interviews with the devs. Now it's completely useless even in groups and not even comparable to dual bursters. Give the Skygaurd back its teeth.
:cheers:

I kinda like the skyguard. The main problems with it are slow bullet travel and limited ammo supply. You have to lead so much with a skyguard that it has no room for small adjustments. Every move an aircraft makes needs a large change to aim to keep hitting. Add that to the 50 round mags running out within moments and you're out of ammo before doing a lot of damage if there's not an ammo tower/sundy to camp.

A well place skyguard can rip apart anything in the air it wants. But that takes a LOT of skill in leading the shots and dodging return fire. Without the infantries small render distance to hide in that MAXes have a skyguard has to be very mindful of what's around him for cover and escape paths.

[gunshooter]

I kinda like the skyguard. The main problems with it are slow bullet travel and limited ammo supply. You have to lead so much with a skyguard that it has no room for small adjustments. Every move an aircraft makes needs a large change to aim to keep hitting. Add that to the 50 round mags running out within moments and you're out of ammo before doing a lot of damage if there's not an ammo tower/sundy to camp.

A well place skyguard can rip apart anything in the air it wants. But that takes a LOT of skill in leading the shots and dodging return fire. Without the infantries small render distance to hide in that MAXes have a skyguard has to be very mindful of what's around him for cover and escape paths.

It's also a tank. This means that aircraft can actually see it. It's not going to last long once they realize it's a threat.

[Helwyr]

We need more trees!

Yup trees populated with Starfires.

also :lol: @ the poster rambling on about this game being about teamwork as some justification for ESFs that require none.

[Ghoest9]

also :lol: @ the poster rambling on about this game being about teamwork as some justification for ESFs that require none.


This.

Why are infantry expected to be viable against air only when they have a large highly organized squad with dedicated roles.
But its just fine that air working solo or in pairs can range all over the battle field being highly effective.


It seems to me the devs only want air to have fun playing.

[Assist]

I think air is over powered - but its kind of beside the point - if air is ruining the fun for most of the players(and its definitely what my friends who mostly stopped playing complained about) then air is ruining the game.

I agree. Air is just not balanced like ground vehicles and infantry. They made direct counters to Air, where as Air is a counter to everything.
I also agree about Bio Labs being the only decent infantry fights anymore. The problem is Bio Labs are only fun as VS/TR IMO. NC Max's need a nerf so bad when compared to TR/VS Max. They need to make a decision, whether they want people to fight over bases for hours like how tech plants were and bio labs were, or if they want fights to be fluid like how Amp Stations and Tech Plants are now. I personally vote for the later, as I think it takes more strategy to defend then and currently the most rewards in the game come from defense and not offense. If they go for how the old tech plants were, then this bs of people capturing empty bases will just continue until PS2 dies.

[Grummz]

I think the OP is not saying air is overpowered. He is saying that the dynamic of air is not fun. That's...a different problem. It doesn't matter if a game is realistic, or even balanced. If there is an aspect of it that is consistently not fun, then the dialogue should be about what would make it fun...since that is the job of the game, to entertain you.

The tricky part is when you have PvP, you need to make sure its fun for both sides. Even if you get killed by air, you should think "Oh man, that battle was fun, if I had just done this and this, I would have survived or even shot him down"

After all the discussion on what air is and isn't, I found the OP's take refreshing. What would be the best entertainment option for air and infantry. It might lead to some new ideas if we though about it this way.

[Chewy]

It's also a tank. This means that aircraft can actually see it. It's not going to last long once they realize it's a threat.

I think I covered the fact that skyguards can actually be seen by air and have to be mindful of it within the 2 part of that post. The last part about how MAXes have a short render distance while vehicles have to use cover and always have an escape path.

In any case just think about how OP air can be once infantry gets a larger render distance. That's the only thing keeping infantry alive in A2G fights from my point of view. Without being able to pepper air before the swarm of rockets come would ruin whats left of ground play and it's one thing I hope doesn't get fixed yet.

[Helwyr]

In any case just think about how OP air can be once infantry gets a larger render distance. That's the only thing keeping infantry alive in A2G fights from my point of view.[...]

Could be Infantry will just get more render distance to other Infantry, or rather a more consistent render distance, as that's the real problem with rendering in PS2 not the maximum distance but the lack of consistency (which is there as a band-aid mechanic for PC performance). Like you say if vehicles, especially Aircraft render Infantry further than they already do then it's pretty much game over, as that's the one thing that keeps game balance from going right over the edge.

[Chewy]

Could be Infantry will just get more render distance to other Infantry, or rather a more consistent render distance, as that's the real problem with rendering in PS2 not the maximum distance but the lack of consistency (which is there as a band-aid mechanic for PC performance). Like you say if vehicles, especially Aircraft render Infantry further than they already do then it's pretty much game over, as that's the one thing that keeps game balance from going right over the edge.

I keep forgetting about the game cutting render distance depending of the number of entities and affects happening. To accustomed to playing Day Z where you can see everything that's within view distance (up to 1KM depending of weather and time of day).

To think of it, I still haven't bothered to play with the settings yet. Been using the default med settings the game opened with. May be time to start messing with them for better FPS. Sitting on an average of the 40s is great, but turns to shit when I try and record video.

[psijaka]

Sympathise with the OP.

I run dual Bursters out of a sense of duty sometimes, but there's not much pleasure (or XP) to be had fulfilling this role.

And Skyguard - forget it.

[Hmr85]

While dual Bursters are not the most fun thing to do in the game. They are unfortunately a necessary evil since it is the only AA we have atm that is some what effective. I feel that if they buffed the Skyguard to where it needed to be and actually made the G2A rocket launcher hit half the time we would see a significant improvement.

List of changes I would like to see.

1.) I would start by getting rid of that 3 to 4 seconds of invincibility that air has when it pops a flare. I believe that it should cancel all locks that it has currently but that is it. " to compensate for it they could reduce the CD on flares some."

2.) Increase the lock on distance of the G2A launcher. Faster missile speed and with tracking similar to the A2A missile that ESF's have.

3.) Faster projectile speed on Skyguards with a bigger ammo capacity.

I feel that if these 3 things where done we would find a nice balance between air and ground.

[bpostal]

I think the OP is not saying air is overpowered. He is saying that the dynamic of air is not fun. That's...a different problem. It doesn't matter if a game is realistic, or even balanced. If there is an aspect of it that is consistently not fun, then the dialogue should be about what would make it fun...since that is the job of the game, to entertain you.
The tricky part is when you have PvP, you need to make sure its fun for both sides. Even if you get killed by air, you should think "Oh man, that battle was fun, if I had just done this and this, I would have survived or even shot him down"
After all the discussion on what air is and isn't, I found the OP's take refreshing. What would be the best entertainment option for air and infantry. It might lead to some new ideas if we though about it this way.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. The current, stated design is geared heavily towards flyboys at the detriment to the other two primary portions of Combined Operations (Ground Combat Element and Force Service Support Element to include infantry and armor both.)

I'm at a loss as to the perfect solution but my belief is that by eliminating the effect of air and armor fire inside of a base, that is, to design bases more along the lines of classic Planetside the quality of infantry fights would be much higher. The inability to strictly enforce a 'no fly zone' via ground AA without the coordinated fire of over a dozen people is really a shame because that kind of tight knit teamwork is not required on the part of ESFs or Liberators. This disparity is the cause of frustration.

That said, if the Jan patch doesn't fix at least some of these solutions and shift the design process back towards created a deep, immersive game then I, speaking only for myself, would have to write this game off for much longer than I had originally intended, perhaps wait for years in order to see this game mature into a 'playable' state.
I might even try Firefall. It's not Planetside, but IMO, neither is PS2.

[SgtMAD]

the problem is the burster,the flak ammo is a joke and the cof is so messed up that sometimes you hit a target then the next time u miss every shot.

AA turrets are just there to bother aircraft,the idea that the gun heats up so damn fast plus the cof and the flak prox that seems to be set on "contact" instead of an area effect

the ppl using the burster are also a problem, they start engaging targets at too far a distance giving the air too many chances to escape.

we used to set up at Indar Comms/Indar with 25 guys and set up AA farms with infantry support and hold it for hours,we learned to acquire the target and get 5 maxes aimed in and then open fire when they got close, the friggin ESF would just instagib LOL,the only thing that didn't just disappear was a gal but it would die too

the amount of hacker tells was insane

[bpostal]

the problem is the burster,the flak ammo is a joke and the cof is so messed up that sometimes you hit a target then the next time u miss every shot.

AA turrets are just there to bother aircraft,the idea that the gun heats up so damn fast plus the cof and the flak prox that seems to be set on "contact" instead of an area effect

the ppl using the burster are also a problem, they start engaging targets at too far a distance giving the air too many chances to escape.

we used to set up at Indar Comms/Indar with 25 guys and set up AA farms with infantry support and hold it for hours,we learned to acquire the target and get 5 maxes aimed in and then open fire when they got close, the friggin ESF would just instagib LOL,the only thing that didn't just disappear was a gal but it would die too

the amount of hacker tells was insane

The only problem with that is that your Bursters need to be way out in front of everything else (or at least everything important, like AMS) because the effective engagement range of say, a Dalton is much further than the Burster. Rendering issues aside.

[Whiteagle]

Marlon was a prophet, early on in beta he saw air was going to be the wet blanket of the game if not fixed. I know because (like a dumbfuck) I told him he was full of shit but apparently he is like a PS2 Yoda. He was right that air needs a legit ground counter at an infantry level. Cause this game aint mech warriors being in a max suit all game is not cute.

I don't know what that counter is, I will leave it up to the Master Jedi.
Personally all I want from Marlon right now are Awnings!

Overhead protection that'd force RAWKETPAWD'ers to come in at lower angles, then OH SHIT DECIMATOR/DUMBFIRE HEAVY ROCKETS!!!

1.) I would start by getting rid of that 3 to 4 seconds of invincibility that air has when it pops a flare. I believe that it should cancel all locks that it has currently but that is it. " to compensate for it they could reduce the CD on flares some."
Eh, I'm currently alright with it, since it gives Flak its own roll.

After all, you'd need both armor AND flares to make you resistant to both, eating up precious equipment slots.
2.) Increase the lock on distance of the G2A launcher. Faster missile speed and with tracking similar to the A2A missile that ESF's have.
Honestly I'd just switch the two...
...Would result in less complaining that A2A missiles are skilless weapons.

3.) Faster projectile speed on Skyguards with a bigger ammo capacity.

Hell I'd settle for the faster projectile speed...
It's not fun needing to lead by 30 some meters just to land hits...

I think you've hit the nail on the head. The current, stated design is geared heavily towards flyboys at the detriment to the other two primary portions of Combined Operations (Ground Combat Element and Force Service Support Element to include infantry and armor both.)
Yeah, it doesn't help that most pilots and drivers know to be engineers so they can repair themselves and gain extra Experience on top of whatever kills they can whore.

Best idea I've seen for this is to give people Experience Points for Vehicle Damage as well as reduce the XP payout for Infantry Kills with a Vehicle Weapon.

I'm at a loss as to the perfect solution but my belief is that by eliminating the effect of air and armor fire inside of a base, that is, to design bases more along the lines of classic Planetside the quality of infantry fights would be much higher. The inability to strictly enforce a 'no fly zone' via ground AA without the coordinated fire of over a dozen people is really a shame because that kind of tight knit teamwork is not required on the part of ESFs or Liberators. This disparity is the cause of frustration.

Indeed, I'm personally baffled why Airbois seem to think that Base Turrets shouldn't be a threat to them...

You need to look at the map people!
If the enemy owns the hex, expect heavy flak!

I personally stay nearly a hex away from most enemy bases, unless I'm expecting to do a suicide run to take out a turret or two.

[EightEightEight]

Reavers, Mosquitoes and Scythes should fight each other and perhaps ground vehicles. Take away the massive damage to infantry that's what the Liberator is for. They keep giving things the ability to do everything. This is not needed and makes the game dull. I would rather see a lot more dog fighting.

I'd also like to see Turret automation come back from PS1 it wasn't enough to kill you but enough to let you know you might not want to be in that area without a plan