Stat Wars, time for some honesty

[Helwyr]

Can we start speaking honestly for once about the whole Stat discussion in PS2?

* Stats can be fun and informative, no stat is a problem in itself. It's how stats are used that can lead to problems.

* No Statistic is going to be universally accepted as a measure of a players skill or lack of skill in PS2.

* Most of the people claiming one stat or another is the best one for showing player skill are doing so because it favors the way they play or want the game to be played. They want their favored stat to be the primary one displayed so that they can claim it as official SOE endorsement of their playstyle as being the most or only legitimate one.

* SOE has cornered themselves into having to have some primary stat to compare players because of their desire to integrate Esports into PS2.

* None of this is going to help make PS2 a better game like PS1 was with more deep gameplay. You could even remove stats altogether and it wouldn't alone bring back the focus on Faction vs Faction objectives because players will always be chasing EXP/Certs in PS2 as it unlike PS1 does not have any cap on Battlerank/Certs.

What's the solution?

The community needs to ask that what stats are shown is configurable by the individual player and for SOE to remove the leader board.

This will allow players to decide for themselves which stats are important to them without getting any SOE endorsement of any particular view point, which will be very diverse. It will also force SOE to move away from trying to fit PS2 in with Esports which from these threads arguing over stats that determine who's a good player already demonstrates that such a pairing is dysfunctional.

Most importantly it will hopefully help both players and developers refocus on what Planetside is really about Massive persistent Faction vs Faction warfare and focus on making that a reality in PS2. Which for the developers is to give PS2 the deep meta game it currently lacks.

[NewSith]

I have mixed feelings about this one.

First I thought - yeah, so a guy removes the whole base captures, XP, deaths and Support categories from his stats and goes Zephyring the heck out of spawnrooms and then claims to be an uber killwhore...

...and my second thought was - but on the other hand it's his right isn't it?

So I

/cautiously support

[ShadetheDruid]

The easiest way to deal with the stats would just be to not give any prominence to any particular stats, and then just give us big stat sheets with everything they record no matter how inane.

Not just things like number of revives/amount of HP healed/amount of HP repaired, but like how a lot of games record weird things like "distance travelled". Whether they record things that obscure I don't know, but it's still fun to look up all the weird stats and see where you're at.

K/D would definitely be shown to be less important if it was on the same stat sheet as the number of times you've been run over.

[SKYeXile]

I think stats i this game are pretty meaningless, everybody plays the game differently with different goals and its impossible to put 2 players next to eachother in stats and say who's better at this MMO's, just as it would be just as futile to have them duel it out by the count of a jammer grenade.

As iv said score per hour could be the be all and end all stat, but its broken now because of boosts and sub and it doesn't reward all playstyle equally currently, but it does have the potential to be the "one" stat. but since not everybody is in the mindset of staying active and keeping the XP rolling in, its never going to be an accurate measure of another skill.

I agree having alot of stats available and customisable filters would be best, you can then choose if you want to chase a certain statistic or not. Also with enough statistics you could probably get a good vibe if somebody is a good player or not or atleast get a feel for their playstyle. playtime despite its problems caused by how the person playing is still a key statistic though and something all other stats should be measured off, by that i mean things like total kills are meaningless, kills/playtime is a far better measurement of a players skill at killing.

If we had all stats available to us, you could perhaps build a rating stat by finding the mean and average stats of each vehcile and weight their skill according eg: lib .8 coefficient, Assault rifle 1.2 coefficient. see if the player is offensive, defensive or support and account for KDR and KPH accordingly to make one displayed rating stat. eg: http://wot-news.com/index.php/stat/calc/en/us (type in "skyexile" or somebody you know who plays and click load data) though again...all these stats can be manipulated by playstyle for a better rating.

[Bloodmode]

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

[Helwyr]

[...]
I agree having alot of stats available and customisable filters would be best, you can then choose if you want to chase a certain statistic or not. Also with enough statistics you could probably get a good vibe if somebody is a good player or not or atleast get a feel for their playstyle. playtime despite its problems caused by how the person playing is still a key statistic though and something all other stats should be measured off, by that i mean things like total kills are meaningless, kills/playtime is a far better measurement of a players skill at killing.

If we had all stats available to us, you could perhaps build a rating stat by finding the mean and average stats of each vehcile and weight their skill according eg: lib .8 coefficient, Assault rifle 1.2 coefficient. see if the player is offensive, defensive or support and account for KDR and KPH accordingly to make one displayed rating stat. eg: http://wot-news.com/index.php/stat/calc/en/us (type in "skyexile" or somebody you know who plays and click load data) though again...all these stats can be manipulated by playstyle for a better rating.

I think it would be perfectly reasonable to have all the stats available in a way that people could make up their own leaderboards within their own communities of PS2 players. The Folly is in SOE doing it.

[SixShooter]

I think it would be perfectly reasonable to have all the stats available in a way that people could make up their own leaderboards within their own communities of PS2 players. The Folly is in SOE doing it.

That is already the plan with releasing the API data. People can make their own apps/leaderboards with whatever data they choose.

[StumpyTheOzzie]

...and my second thought was - but on the other hand it's his right isn't it?

So I

/cautiously support

The easiest way to deal with the stats would just be to not give any prominence to any particular stats, and then just give us big stat sheets with everything they record no matter how inane.


I think stats i this game are pretty meaningless, everybody plays the game differently with different goals and its impossible to put 2 players next to eachother in stats and say who's better at this MMO's, just as it would be just as futile to have them duel it out by the count of a jammer grenade.

-snip-


Exactly right all three of you. There's the guy who Roleplays a pacifist medic/doctor type, the guy who roleplays a rambo-with-syringe type and the lib gunner/engineer who is different to an anti-tank combat engineer.

We need stats to compare rambo medics with rambo medics because comparing rambo medics to pacifist medics is apples and oranges. Engineer lib gunners are not comparable to AT engineers or ammo-resupply engineers.

The only way I can see to progress is to have every single thing ever tracked. not just rounds fired, but rounds fired in and out of the warpgate (non-combat weapon testing vs field combat)
Rounds fired in the crown.
Shotgun rounds fired in the crown.
Shotgun Slug ammo rounds fired in the crown.
Shotgun Slug ammo rounds fired in the crown that hit TR.
Shotgun Slug ammo rounds fired in the crown that hit TR medics.



see where I'm going?

[igster]

Completely agree with the O/P. Removing any of the stats will do nothing to improve the gameplay. It's a side show. The main attraction is the gameplay - Play the game how the hell you want... maximise whatever stat you want.

Stats are the deckchairs on the Titanic. Arrange them how the hell you want. It won't help keep the ship away from the icebergs.

Address the real big issues to deliver truly involving gameplay and we'll be playing this game for a long time. Waste time pissing about with froth that makes little or no real difference and the great game we've been looking forward to for such a long time will be held back from where it should be.

[DirtyBird]

Hotspots should be included as well as in where a player camps the most or where others are constantly moving around.

With the upcoming changes and probably more changes down the track I'd also agree that most stats are meaningless.
If you change the mechanics of the game ie. dynamic XP, HE rounds, Pod dmg radius etc, then the first month is different to the second and to the third.

They might as well overload the stats available and include every tiny detail, even AFK in warp gate.

...kills/playtime is a far better measurement of a players skill at killing.
Questionable.
You'd need to look at other stats on how that time was spent farming those kills.
If they are predominately vehicle based and at range (stats for that?) then is it classified as a skill?

Nade spamming in Metro24/7 didnt require any skill yet you could farm thousands of kills and that was with out a vehicle. But you could throw in the MAV if we need a vehicle comparison of cheap kills and it got changed anyway.

On the other hand if the player was rarely in a vehicle then yeah I can see your point.
But otherwise the two are totally different player styles and only one requires what your average educated gaming community would call skill.

It could help keep like minded players together though.

[SKYeXile]

Questionable.


no, its not questionable, you took what i said entirely out of context, when i said in my post the same thing what you're saying that in a system of rating killings with things eg libs would get a negative coefficient to rating and assault rifles and likely anything infantry based would be positive.

In context, what i said though:

Playtime despite its problems caused by how the person playing is still a key statistic though and something all other stats should be measured off, by that i mean things like total kills are meaningless, kills/playtime is a far better measurement of a players skill at killing.

kills/playtime is clearly a better measurement of skill that just kills by themself doesn't show efficiency or anything, KPH does, but you know this already. Obviously it would be preferable that they display playtime in each vehicle/infantry weapon and kills with it.

[Ghoest9]

THERE SHOULD BE NO RECORD OF DEATHS.

This one stat encourages farming and non-tactical game play.
I dont care if you blame the players or the devs - the reality is that as long as you record deaths people will try to keep their k/d ratio high and they will implement warped game play and farming to protect it.


For the record my k/d is not impressive.

[Wahooo]

More stats the better. More personal configuration the better, so you can go find the ones you are personally aiming for.

Leader boards are kinda for epeen stroking anyway so where is the harm in keeping them K/D centric? It doesn't CHANGE peoples play style it just is a bit of a bragging point for those who are going to play that way anyway, and often enough keeps those people in the game.

[Helwyr]

THERE SHOULD BE NO RECORD OF DEATHS.

This one stat encourages farming and non-tactical game play.
I dont care if you blame the players or the devs - the reality is that as long as you record deaths people will try to keep their k/d ratio high and they will implement warped game play and farming to protect it.


For the record my k/d is not impressive.

You're doing exactly what I was criticizing only additionally in CAPS for extra obnoxiousness. You came in here to wage Stat Wars. Do you even understand what this thread is about Ghoest?

[Ghoest9]

You're doing exactly what I was criticizing only additionally in CAPS for extra obnoxiousness. You came in here to wage Stat Wars. Do you even understand what this thread is about Ghoest?

Basically the tread is about you being wrong.

I said why you were wrong.

You cried.

[VGCS]

More customization is always a good thing. Browser integration is even better. Allowing players to customize their Stats as they're presented to the world would also be tits. I'd proudly show my number of Deaths... I wear that stat like a red badge of courage whenever I earned them...B/c I put myself in harm's way to defend the undefendable. (too bad half of my deaths in this particular game came from 10fps lag & a constant CTD mem Leak that happens every 10 minutes b/c I can't afford Windows7).

[NewSith]

Basically the tread is about you being wrong.

I said why you were wrong.

You cried.

You do know that according to his idea you can remove the death stat from your own stat?


Besides it's not exactly proper conclusion to think that if there is no death stat people will not farm... I know at least 10 PS players who don't give a damn if their death is recorded or not, they generally dislike dying.

[MaxDamage]

Even kills/playtime doesn't really mean much. I spend a lot of time mucking around, driving, having fun. My overall accuracy stat for example is something like 0.2. I enjoy filling the warpgate with smoke rounds while enjoying a sandwich. No. K/D by itself is moderately more useful. Until or unless they start tracking fights from the moment damage is reciprocal and/or to the moment of death (active combat which would REALLY be useful), kills per hour means jack.

[Ghoest9]

You do know that according to his idea you can remove the death stat from your own stat?


Besides it's not exactly proper conclusion to think that if there is no death stat people will not farm... I know at least 10 PS players who don't give a damn if their death is recorded or not, they generally dislike dying.


Removing the death stat will not male Auria a perfect plaxce.
But it would offer a distinct and large improvement.
That should probably be our goal.

No one likes dying - and thats good. We dont want everyone practically suiciding in death rushes all night. But we dont want the majority of players mdoifying there strategy particulallry to keep a low death count either.

As long as that stat exists9and particularly if it can be read on the API) it will be a big problem.

[Helwyr]

Basically the tread is about you being wrong.

I said why you were wrong.

You cried.

:huh: I'm not sure Ghoest9 whether you're just trolling this thread or just a really stupid person. Apologies if you actually are mentally handicapped, but you really shouldn't be posting here if that's the case.

The thread isn't about me being wrong, most people are generally agreeing with me.

You didn't say why I was wrong, I don't think you even read the OP, or simply didn't understand it. Because your comments aren't addressing what I was arguing.

[Ghoest9]

:huh: I'm not sure Ghoest9 whether you're just trolling this thread or just a really stupid person. Apologies if you actually are mentally handicapped, but you really shouldn't be posting here if that's the case.

The thread isn't about me being wrong, most people are generally agreeing with me.

You didn't say why I was wrong, I don't think you even read the OP, or simply didn't understand it. Because your comments aren't addressing what I was arguing.

When I said you were wrong and you responded by saying I shouldnt say you were wrong instead of by refuting me - thats when the thread became about you being wrong.

So now the thread is about you being wrong AND you insulting people.

[Figment]

Never seen a game where stats show the whole thing.

Usualy they are indicators of playstyle mix - and if playstyle is known, either how easy it is or how good he is at it.

[SKYeXile]

Never seen a game where stats show the whole thing.

Usualy they are indicators of playstyle mix - and if playstyle is known, either how easy it is or how good he is at it.

i think world of tank stats are good, but thats because there is a clear goal to the game and everymuch is more or less even...and its great you an view everybody full detailed stats ingame....also when people post on the forums a link to their stats is there...most of the time in threads like these all the people posting that stats dont matter are the ones with under 48%(the avg) win rate, go figure.

[Ghoest9]

i think world of tank stats are good, but thats because there is a clear goal to the game and everymuch is more or less even...and its great you an view everybody full detailed stats ingame....also when people post on the forums a link to their stats is there...most of the time in threads like these all the people posting that stats dont matter are the ones with under 48%(the avg) win rate, go figure.

WOT stats are great at comparing people with similar play modes and terrible at comparing people who play differently.

Lets you you have 1 guy with a 51 percent win rate and he always plays solo.
Ok so he slightly helps his team. He increases their odds of winning by 2%

Now lets say you have 3 identical players - but they always play together. Anyone of their stats looked at alone would suggest that the player increased his teams odd of winning by 6%

So they dont really tell you a great deal about the player because they dont tell you how they play(in case you wonder I was just a slightly above average player when I played.)

Im not saying the stats were worthless they tended to be right - Garbad was really good and he had really good stats for instance. But they made some significantly above averge players look great when they shouldnt have and they made some great players simply look good.

[SKYeXile]

WOT stats are great at comparing people with similar play modes and terrible at comparing people who play differently.

Lets you you have 1 guy with a 51 percent win rate and he always plays solo.
Ok so he slightly helps his team. He increases their odds of winning by 2%

Now lets say you have 3 identical players - but they always play together. Anyone of their stats looked at alone would suggest that the player increased his teams odd of winning by 6%

So they dont really tell you a great deal about the player because they dont tell you how they play(in case you wonder I was just a slightly above average player when I played.)

Im not saying the stats were worthless they tended to be right - Garbad was really good and he had really good stats for instance. But they made some significantly above averge players look great when they shouldnt have and they made some great players simply look good.

well win rate is just one stat. and yea been parties does certainly help that. but you can still look at damage per tank. like my E50 has 1800 HP(from memory) but i do 2400 dmg per round in it, the avg tanker would do only ~1350 dmg per game with it. (based off 25% avg survival rate) so i more than pull my weight in games and it does effect my win rate.

I sorta agree with you, there are certainly different play styles, obviously with different tanks, but the object of that game is to win the round and on a tank - tank basis you can see if that player is contributing properly to a win.

[Snowfake]

Current stats tell you very little about a player.

Good players will know who the other good players are.

[RSphil]

stats are interesting but they all depend on the type of game. I think k/d is the least I.portant in planetside due to the way it is ment to played and shear size of it.
the other stats are interesting though. I would say SOE are still playing with them and will chop and change stuff as the game goes on.
haven't noticed but are base captures and defences on there?

[ShadetheDruid]

haven't noticed but are base captures and defences on there?

Yeah. You can go into the current PSU version of the stats and see facility caps and defenses.

[RSphil]

ah cool. have to have a look tonight. cheers.

[Zydar]

it's all about vanity really. Stats have absolutely no impact on me or my playstyle because I really don't care at all what bob or mary thinks of the numbers in my profile. I focus on what I think is important in a current situation and I get it done. If it's repairing turrets while being bombarded from 40 different angles then I'll do it. If I think running through the middle of a swarm of enemies to screw with them and get them to shoot each other will give us an advantage I'll do it. I'll always take point because a few pixelated slugs to the head don't bother me one bit if it gives the guys following me in an advantage to clear the room/objective.

People just need to stop being vain about their stats and play the game, and yes stats do have an impact on peoples mentality, maybe not everyone but nobody can deny it happens without either being ignorant or a liar. That doesn't mean if the stats were removed it would change everything, some people just like to play that way. But I'll tell you that when I'm playing a game like tf2 or tribes I see a lot more people playing the objective hard then I do in most other games that highlight the death stat. Vanity and pride aren't fiction.

So yeah, I'm all up for being able to edit it. I don't see removing it as a good thing only because it keeps some players hooked to it but I don't see it as a good thing for a community as a whole either. The best solution I can see is giving people the ability to only display the stats that they want to display to everyone and turn everything else off so that only SOE has access to them for w/e they use them for.

That said, I want more stats, shots and kills and headshots per vehicle and per weapon, ammo boxes dropped, points via those boxes, revive counts, time played in hexes/bases, time on continent, time in vehicle/kit, etc ,etc. Everything down to the last time my avatar piddled. I enjoy seeing how horrible I am with certain weapons and vehicles :)