Spec Ops vs Shocktroops

[NewSith]

Since I didn't want to hijack the thread about BCP and /lead chat, I created this thread.

What made me start this thread:
@newsith, you realize a 5 man squad can do just as much as a 12 man squad in many situations right? especially when people are ignoring the side bases, as buzzcut did (the VS took side bases to avoid being warp gated).5 man squad cannot. Just for comparison, few minutes ago we were holding Eisa Horizontal Gen with 11 people against a massive VS zerg. Once our number dried up to 5 we pretty much lost it.


2-6 people squad cannot impact the battlefild when it comes to fighting, that's the poiint. As for ghostcapping and fighting a 5v5 skirmishes on BL4 Crash, they do not exactly contribute much, since their effort gets instantly neutralized by any larger force.


In other words - let's compare the scales per Empire:
5/133 = ~3.75%
5/666 = ~0.75%
..and per continent:
5/399 = ~1.25%
5/1998 = ~0,25%

Here's blatant statistic, and it shows many things.Strange. From my 18 man squad I send 6 to go cap Mani Biolab while the rest was in Andvari, holding the VS. They ended up getting the Biolab from the TR and we from the VS.

Smaller squads can't change the battles? Unlikely. Off course, if you suck at map assessment and your team mates can't be counted on, then that's the case.That's ghosthacking, since I'm absolutely sure your six guys weren't countered by 15-20 more or less organized TR.


You see - I am not saying small squads are worthless and everybody who is in one is a noob. On the contrary 8 of my people successfuly turned the tide of a massive biolab fight by taking a tactical flanking meneuver around the SCU Shield Gen building and clearing it out, just yesterday or day before. However on a strategical scheme of things, small squads can do nothing, but ghosthack.



PS:
Strategy is the utilization, during both peace and war, of all of a nation's forces, through large-scale, long-range planning and development, to ensure security or victory. Tactics is the military science that deals with securing objectives set by strategy, especially the technique of deploying and directing troops, ships, and aircraft in effective maneuvers against an enemy.

In other words - Strategy = Plan, Tactics = Execution of the plan, in case you guys don't know the difference.


What's the point:
As we know PS2 didn't come shipped with the designs required for PlanetSide 1 Spec Ops teams to do their job. Their traditional jobs included Continent Backhacks, Providing Cave Links/Modules, NTU Drains, Genholds. PlanetSide 2 took that away, along with the strategical worth of small outfits and as a result - many of PS1 Spec Ops outfits had to requalify into shocktroops.


PlanetSide Spec Ops: An outfit perfoming an action of strategical significance, utilizing sophisticated tactics, working generally alone.
PlanetSide Shocktroops: An outfit perfoming an action of lesser strategical significance, utilizing unconventional tactics to spearhead an assault by main zerg.


This is what I observed through many ex-Spec Ops outfits - you either grow, to be able to work as a standalone group or you become shocktroops. MercenaryS have performed quite a few of successful operations of that sort (including Eisa takeover today, that was later overrun by 252 and then blatantly declared to be their doing), but the problem is - I myself, and many of my outfit mates do not enjoy this kind of play. It just turns into "advanced zerging", and I am not exactly fond of such way.


Bottomline (TL;DR):
@Ex-Spec Ops people - Once (if) Spec Ops opportunities reemerge, will you retain the role of Spec Ops or remain Shocktroopers?

[p0intman]

NC Covert Ops/Fast Response forever. I'm a huge advocate for more specialised targets like old style gen holds and base drains. I don't like doing shock trooper shit if I can avoid it.

my favorite shit in ps1 was going into a hot base being hacked by the enemy and sneaking in to bring tubes and gen up ahed of the resecure teams, all while having an orange alert around me. uncloaked. in agile. with a sweeper.

[LoliLoveFart]

If spec ops style play returns I will be all over that like the NC is all over hamburgers.
The zerg here zerg there style gameplay is getting really dry really fast. It is a shame that we won't see any massive gameplay shakeups for a while but hopefully they are in the pipes.

[p0intman]

If spec ops style play returns I will be all over that like the NC is all over hamburgers.


Join the NC. We have these. Fuckyeah.

http://www.monogram.com/all-in-good-food/images/recipes/large/grilled_hamburgers.jpg

[Saintlycow]

Game favors the zerg too much. Sure smaller groups of people can be effective, but a large squad can do it quicker. Unless it's steath. In which case IRNV screws you over anyhow :)

You roll a squad of 6, I roll a squad of 12.

You can cap 1 base, I can cap 2.

I also have a 2 to 1 advantage against you in direct combat.

The game needs more things for small groups to do.

[StumpyTheOzzie]

In the good old days, one person could stop the enemy from fielding all their advanced weapons with a few well placed boomers. All you had to do was drop the next gen in the lattice.

Nowadays, everyone can bring anything at anytime. Maxes can be bought at AMSes (instead of towers and bases only) any vehicle can be pulled pretty much from any base terminal.

If the VS don't have a tech plant, they can still have magriders. Liberators are always around. There are no strategic "denial" games we can play. So in that sense, small bands are basically powerless compared to PS1.

Having said that, it only takes 2 to liberate. So they can be quite powerful at the same time. a squad of 6 can have 3 liberators up most of the time, or 2 full libs pretty much all the time.

[bpostal]

I think that is an accurate statement of what has occurred in a good number of situations/outfits.
I personally like both styles of gameplay. I think of stormtrooping as more of a tactical playstyle and spec-ops type shit is more strategic. Both are important. I would love to see spec-ops play become more important and enabled beyond what is currently available.

[Figment]

We've always been a special ops, infiltration, fast response, lightning rod and zergherder outfit.

[Ghoest9]

Theres a lot of people who call small teams hack "ghost hacking and a lot of people who are against "ghost hacking".

Its just whining.
Its unfortunate when huuge zergs roll over essentially empty bases because no one wants to defend - but thats a different issue.

Small teams caping small bases is big part of the Panetside experience and should be embraced.

[BIGGByran]

You guys talking about this made me think about:

I wish that MBT were slower and lightning tanks are much faster than MBT. So if you could imagen a spec -ops team rolling with Flash and Lightning tanks because they are quick and very mobile

VS

The main force with consist of MBT, Sunders, Galaxies, and the heavy troops, MAXs etc.

Small, light and fast hitting VS Big, "heavy" and hard hitting.

[p0intman]

You guys talking about this made me think about:

I wish that MBT were slower and lightning tanks are much faster than MBT. So if you could imagen a spec -ops team rolling with Flash and Lightning tanks because they are quick and very mobile

VS

The main force with consist of MBT, Sunders, Galaxies, and the heavy troops, MAXs etc.

Small, light and fast hitting VS Big, "heavy" and hard hitting.

see, exactly. I'd love to actually have a use for mass atv swarms like you'd see in beta, guys running between bases and striking unpredictably on them like pissed off hornets.

[victthoe]

It just turns into "advanced zerging", and I am not exactly fond of such way.

[NewSith]

Theres a lot of people who call small teams hack "ghost hacking and a lot of people who are against "ghost hacking".

Its just whining.
Its unfortunate when huuge zergs roll over essentially empty bases because no one wants to defend - but thats a different issue.

Small teams caping small bases is big part of the Panetside experience and should be embraced.

You misinterprete the negativity towards ghosthacking - many outfits (especially ex-Spec Ops ones) don't like ghosthacking, not from the perspective of a resec team (since PS1, aswell as PS2, thankfully does not cause whack-a-mole on a massive scale). Their dissatisfaction has more to do with them participating in ghosthacks. And ghosthacks are not exactly fun part to play. In PS2 ghosthacking changed slighly, due to the larger scale of the game and higher skillgap between players. So now, in PS2, even if there's some resistance on a hex, it can still be considered a ghosthack, even if there are just 6 people attacking and even 5 people defending.

[Figment]

In 5 vs 5, attacker wins if they get overwatch on the spawnroom, which they always can because there are five million ways to get there and only two ways to get out.


I'm curious for the new spawnbuildings, but I suspect they are still not centralised with internal CC and SCU. As long as we have to go outside to get to the CC, we will have camping issues. But at least the new higher and more exits/fortified balcony should give a chance to clear out the terrain around the direct spawn building.

Let us hope it does that.

[Scorpion Six]

Hey guys I keep reading in this post about "if spec ops game play comes back". ITS HERE MAN! Believe me when I say this, the spec ops guys in my outfit have saved the day several times since their training ended and they started legit ops with the outfit.
Please please please dont think that there are no spec ops opportunities out there. Come to Mattherson, speak with our outfit lead DATHNIC. Ask him about the Ghost squad. He doesnt know everything but he HAS seen the results from the training we do. I may even be open to training other outfits Spec Ops squads.
We use ONLY use 6 guys btw and we have decisively affected an enemy engagement several times over. IT CAN BE DONE.


Scorpion Six (Covenant - in game Mattherson)

[NewSith]

Hey guys I keep reading in this post about "if spec ops game play comes back". ITS HERE MAN! Believe me when I say this, the spec ops guys in my outfit have saved the day several times since their training ended and they started legit ops with the outfit.
Please please please dont think that there are no spec ops opportunities out there. Come to Mattherson, speak with our outfit lead DATHNIC. Ask him about the Ghost squad. He doesnt know everything but he HAS seen the results from the training we do. I may even be open to training other outfits Spec Ops squads.
We use ONLY use 6 guys btw and we have decisively affected an enemy engagement several times over. IT CAN BE DONE.


Scorpion Six (Covenant - in game Mattherson)

What is generally included in your activities, may I ask?

[Dkamanus]

Being the guy questioning the mathematics, I play both roles, depending on the situation. Spec ops in this case is based on the mechanics of the Hex system. As one day, we were going against the VS in Indar. Spec ops teams know how to demolish an entire base, and can cap and secure it in under 3 minutes in this game. Biolabs are the easiest to do.

IN that case, my 6 guys were facing resistance there as well, but since I tought them that the important stuff around a biolab to grab is the generator and the SCU, they went in, capped all bases around the biolab and then started to go on to the generator and SCU, having the points for last.

Recovery teams went after the installation and they held it against them. This "ghost" capping had a strategic value, to make our mainlines concentrate back on Mani, all the while they were surrounded by TR, which had their main zerg in Freyr and the rest of my squad was on Andvari.

People say Ghostcapping sucks, but mostly because people don't use it in their favor. Strategically, in a continent PoV, doing this kind of stuff is what pushed the frontline back towards the adversaries corner of the map, giving us breathing room in our corner for people to leave Freyr Amp and divide the zerg towards Mani as well. Once the zerg is divided, it falls on freyr and the defenders go for the offensive, taking everything around Mani and reinforcing it.

Hell, I used 1 squad to secure 6 territories in Indar for us one time. 3 Staying in Regent Rock (cause I know it's the main base that VS will try to defend with their hearts in order to not allow us to move in more into their territory), while the rest (another 9) were "ghost" capping Snake Ravine, NS Research lab, Xenotech labs, crossroads and Broken Arch.

We held a good portion of the VS map with 12 guys, because we insisted in maintaining these places, which were being back capped by 2 VS guys at a time. When my guys were hit by a enemy platoon, they fell back, base by base. We were stalling them A LOT, hoping the rest of the NC was doing it's job.

Most people think when they see enemies detected, that 2 guys are inside backcapping or Ghostcapping stuff. When you send a half a squad or a full squad, this goes way past ghostcapping, and turns into strategic defense. We don't defend by numbers, but we force the attackers to go for places that need to be capped so they can continue their advance.

This is using the Hex system to your advantage, imo.

[Scorpion Six]

I would love to discuss it with you, only not in an open forum. :)
lol this is a game and it shouldnt matter right? But its worked well for us and we are proud of our accomplishments.
Are you on Mattherson? Maybe we can set up a time to discuss it on our Teamspeak. I'll talk to the Outfit lead about it.


Six

[NewSith]

I would love to discuss it with you, only not in an open forum. :)
lol this is a game and it shouldnt matter right? But its worked well for us and we are proud of our accomplishments.
Are you on Mattherson? Maybe we can set up a time to discuss it on our Teamspeak. I'll talk to the Outfit lead about it.


Six

No need, I'm from Miller's MercenaryS and we do our job just fine. The problem is - the battlefield in PS2 is very dynamic and thus there's no real value to most of what Spec Ops do. Holding a gen in PS1 could result in taking a base that wouldn't be capped back sometimes even for days. In PS2 taking a base does not have that time value, since it WILL be retaken in a matter of hours.

This also goes to Dkamanus

[Dkamanus]

No need, I'm from Miller's MercenaryS and we do our job just fine. The problem is - the battlefield in PS2 is very dynamic and thus there's no real value to most of what Spec Ops do. Holding a gen in PS1 could result in taking a base that wouldn't be capped back sometimes even for days. In PS2 taking a base does not have that time value, since it WILL be retaken in a matter of hours.

This also goes to Dkamanus

Yes, thats true, but the beauty of it is to see your actions resulting in a continent lock. It was hilarious yesterday, after we lost some bases on Esamir, that we went back to Freyr Amp Station. I ordered my guys to man ALL AA on the eastern side of the base and point all guns towards East (Aurora Labs).

We were facing a HUGE air zerg, and we totally wrecked them. They weren't expecting to get wrecked so easily, since we organized our defense. 18 man. It's not spec ops, neither shocktroopers, but small squads DO make a difference if the members (AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, the Squad/Platoon/Outfit leader) knows how to work with what he's got.

We defended it for quite a while until a Armour Zerg hit us from the south (and we fought valiantly, but they had 2 infantry man for each guy that I had), and we still gave em a huge headache. The problem is that people don't heed the requests on command, nor ask how the situations in those locations are.

I keep asking for reinforcements to no avail, then we were eventually zerged. But we stood for quite sometime, first facing a mix of Armour and Air, then a Air zerg, then finally an armour zerg from Eisa, all the while desperately asking for help.

I consider ourselves as Commandos (Yes, Comando Brasil), since we excel in combat situations a less "trained" player would rather fail. We've done amazing station defense with less numbers than the enemy (combine with some extra guys from other outfits), and we prevailed. It all boils down to situational awereness from the players and proactive thinking.

[Scorpion Six]

@ Newsith
I apologize if I came across as you needing training. Im sure your outfit does a great job!
I do think that alot of folks idea of spec ops in PS2 is skewed. Sending a 5-6 man team in to hold a gen in todays environment is just plain suicide.
I want to go into more detail about what we do and how it affects the outcome of engagments but I just don't want to do it here.
I cant stress enough how effective a 6 man squad with the proper loadout and class composition can be. They can even break an armor column. We've done it.
Our Spec Ops volunteers have to pass a quick entry test before they become Candidates. Once they are Candidates they begin their training which culminates in a Command Demonstration to become certified. Once certified they are authorized to wear the Ghost patch and emblem on their vehicles and participate in Spec Ops operations. (we take this training very seriously).


Six