Liberator Balance patch out tonight

[james]

http://i.imgur.com/6DWBp.jpg


Glad to see they are listening to the community. It will be quite interested to see the changes.

[NewSith]

I hope they don't screw the Shredder Liberator, since I have over 2000 CP wasted into it.

[james]

I hope they don't screw the Shredder Liberator, since I have over 2000 CP wasted into it.

I'm guessing it will only be a nerf to the zepher, and perhaps a health decrease, and perhaps a decrease in the movement of the gun

[Assist]

I'm guessing it will only be a nerf to the zepher, and perhaps a health decrease, and perhaps a decrease in the movement of the gun

We can only hope.
There's more Liberators than MBT's now it seems.

[james]

We can only hope.
There's more Liberators than MBT's now it seems.

Yep, they basically are a flying super tank

They screwed up on the fact they tried to make the futures AC130, but they forgot the AC130 is not a tank in the sky, but rather a sitting duck.

[NewSith]

I'm guessing it will only be a nerf to the zepher, and perhaps a health decrease, and perhaps a decrease in the movement of the gun

This is particularly a way to screw Shredder up.


Libs high up in the sky don't really care about damage, it's those sticking closer to the ground that suffer greatly. Especially with that surge in Skyguard numbers on Miller TR.


The only quick way to fix this would be to make Zephyr and Dalton - bomb bays instead of cannons and make AA MAXes being able to shoot 90º up. This would solve a lot of Liberator balance problems, now wouldn't it?

[ShadetheDruid]

Yeah, as an ESF pilot and a Skyguard driver, I gotta say Lib health isn't the problem. They're like flying tanks and that's perfectly fine.

Like with most vehicles that have issues with OPness, it's the weapons not the craft itself. So I hope that's where the changes are focused.

[StumpyTheOzzie]

As a liberator gunner/pilot, I can tell you that the health goes down REALLY fast when the enemy is organised.

So it's not the health.

I think a more general HE nerf is required. The Dalton is just fine for AV - maybe 15% too hard hitting - but the Zephyr vs softies is just incredibly OP. 3 round's splash damage is enough. You don't even need to aim as much as with the dalton. The zephyr firing arc is pretty irrelevant.

[Bear]

I sense a disturbance in the force......

It's like the voices of a thousand pilots all cried out at once.

[NewSith]

I sense a disturbance in the force......

It's like the voices of a thousand pilots all cried out at once.

So remind me, please, what's the pilot's gain in Liberator piloting again?

[StumpyTheOzzie]

warm fuzzies.

It's not XP, that's for sure. Do they even get assists?

That's why my outfit pairs up it's pilots and gunners.

[james]

warm fuzzies.

It's not XP, that's for sure. Do they even get assists?

That's why my outfit pairs up it's pilots and gunners.

Pilots get gunner assists which i think is 50 xp

[trollet]

warm fuzzies.

It's not XP, that's for sure. Do they even get assists?

That's why my outfit pairs up it's pilots and gunners.

Lib pilots get half of the xp the gunner gets, if gunner gets the kill

[NewSith]

Lib pilots get half of the xp the gunner gets, if gunner gets the kill

No, they get third (or even quarter), considering all the Kill Streak, Kill Streak Stop Bonuses, Kill Assists and occasional Headshots (Shredder) and Multiple Kills (Zephyr/Dalton).

[StumpyTheOzzie]

Lib pilots get half of the xp the gunner gets, if gunner gets the kill


yeah, and nothing if they don't. The gunner gets assists all the time though, especially if there's 3 libs locking down an area.

So the pilot gets about 2k, the gunner gets about 15k. That's been my experience.

And what NewSith said. There's more to XP than just kills.

[Figment]

Exp sharing in PS1 was fairer - eventually. Took a while for them to develop that system, but it was pretty damn good.

Mix that with assists: done.

[Towe]

That is not true!

I guess you forgot that you got xp for killing only. While the system was much more thought out in PS1, its main flaw was that you got no XP for doing 90% dmg to something if someone else stole the kill.

You felt this a lot as a tank driver, since almost every time you got the other tank low on health a reaver came by...

[Messatsu]

I don't think that nerfing is the solution, lib's are ok IMO, the problem is that sometimes there are too much of them.. Make them more rare. Nerf should be the last solution for anything.

[Figment]

That is not true!

I guess you forgot that you got xp for killing only. While the system was much more thought out in PS1, its main flaw was that you got no XP for doing 90% dmg to something if someone else stole the kill.

You felt this a lot as a tank driver, since almost every time you got the other tank low on health a reaver came by...

Read my comment again, apparently you only read the first line...

"Mix that with assists: done."


Although, I'd remove the entire bonus exp things, because it doesn't stimulate anything but survival killwhoring (which isn't necesserily a good thing) and replace it with the dynamic exp, but whatever.

[FreeSpeech]

Where's the patch to balance Scythes and Mosquitos?

[Methonius]

Even if they nerf the libs a bit I still think they need to make them more expensive to use. They need to up their cost by another 200 resources at least. They are much too prevalent sometimes with the sun being blotted out by them especially on empires that have the highest pop.

[Hamma]

Where's the patch to balance Scythes and Mosquitos?

We just had that with the AA changes :p

[KaskaMatej]

Where's the patch to balance Scythes and Mosquitos?

What's wrong with them?

[Canaris]

General:

Enemy spotting is now only shared with allies within 150 meters.
Spot duration has been lowered to 10 seconds.
At long distances you have to be closer to the center of the target to successfully spot.
Jump Jets should no longer function intermittently.
MAXes will render at a longer distance for players in aircraft.


Liberator:

C150 Dalton:
Firing adjustments have been made to the Dalton. This change will mainly be noticeable when attempting to fire on infantry or other small targets at a distance.
Dalton projectiles now have more gravity when fired. This makes the Dalton more accurate when the Liberator is above targets. Shot accuracy becomes more difficult as the Liberator increases its horizontal distance to its target.
The outer damage blast radius, where minimum damage occurs, has been reduced from 12 meters to 10 meters.

L105 Zepher
Firing adjustments have been made to the Zepher. This should only be noticeable when trying to hit infantry or other very small targets at a far distance.
Zepher projectiles now have more gravity when fired. This makes the Zephyr more accurate when the Liberator is above targets. Shot accuracy becomes more difficult as the Liberator increases its horizontal distance to its target.
The inner damage blast radius, where maximum damage occurs, has been reduced from 4 meters to 1.5

Infrared & Thermal Optics have had their effective viewing ranges tuned for the following weapons:
Scythe: All Weapons
Reaver: All Weapons
Mosquito: All Weapons
Liberator: Secondary Weapons (Shredder, Dalton, Zepher)

liking the reduced blast radius

[Thunderhawk]

Where's the patch to balance Scythes and Mosquitos?

What !??? Seriously give this ESF hate a rest


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[Thunderhawk]

Can someone who has a chance to login see what they meant by "tuned NV for all weapons"

What was exactly done?


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[ShadetheDruid]

What's wrong with them?

This is FreeSpeech we're talking about, likely they mean that they're so much better than the Reaver and therefore should be nerfed.

Why someone would want everyone to have poor ESFs rather than improve the Reaver up to the level of the Scythe and Mossie, I don't know.

Edit: Back on topic, i'm also liking the look of that Zepher blast radius nerf. Might go on a Whine Safari to the official forums later.

[FreeSpeech]

Wel nerf them down to the Reaver or buff the Reaver to their level, I don't mind which way they do it long as it's balanced.

[KaskaMatej]

Wel nerf them down to the Reaver or buff the Reaver to their level, I don't mind which way they do it long as it's balanced.

I'll be more specific this time, what EXACTLY is wrong with Reaver or Mossy/Scythe?

[Gortha]

Yep, they basically are a flying super tank

They screwed up on the fact they tried to make the futures AC130, but they forgot the AC130 is not a tank in the sky, but rather a sitting duck.

Right. The AC130 is a Oneshot, the Liberator should be the same, a Glasscannon.
Right now a Liberator can take more Hits from a MBT than another MBT can take.

[PredatorFour]

Right now a Liberator can take more Hits from a MBT than another MBT can take.

Takes me 3 mag shots to down a lib, 2 to seriously give it something to think about (land+rep or explode) Don't get what you mean ? a tank takes more hits to kill depending on where the shells land ofc

And making the blast radius smaller on the zepher isn't going to be the magical cure for their OPness. Its not hard to gun libs thats the problem, its fairy easy to land the shots on targets once you are used to it. Think it might be good to make them more cumbersome , make the guns twitchy or something so its quite hard to gun.

[NewSith]

Right. The AC130 isa Oneshot, the Liberator should be the same, a Glasscannon.
Right now a Liberator can take more Hits from a MBT than another MBT can take.

Two Vanguard/Maggy AP shots to blow it up AFAIK.

And making the blast radius smaller on the zepher isn't going to be the magical cure for their OPness. Its not hard to gun libs thats the problem, its fairy easy to land the shots on targets once you are used to it. Think it might be good to make them more cumbersome , make the guns twitchy or something so its quite hard to gun.

Even more reload time for Dalton (and Zephyr)
Significant COF spread for Zephyr during sustained fire.

I was thinking this was what we'd see TBH.

[Gortha]

Takes me 3 mag shots to down a lib, 2 to seriously give it something to think about (land+rep or explode) Don't get what you mean ? a tank takes more hits to kill depending on where the shells land ofc

And making the blast radius smaller on the zepher isn't going to be the magical cure for their OPness. Its not hard to gun libs thats the problem, its fairy easy to land the shots on targets once you are used to it. Think it might be good to make them more cumbersome , make the guns twitchy or something so its quite hard to gun.

Hey Predator,

thats not true. My Saron(TOP Gun for the Magrider) needs 6 Shots/Hits to Kill a Lib the Standard Front-Cannon - ... i don´t know. But it my be the AP Variant of the Front cannon can do it with 3 or 4 Hits...

Even that is WAYYYYY to much.:groovy:

[Gortha]

There is also NO Weak Point at a Liberator like the MBTs have at their back...

[PredatorFour]

That's something i don't understand in this game , how tanks can be weak at their back yet aircraft don't have a weak spot.

If the front/cockpit of the aircraft was their weak spot it would make things interesting.

[Calisai]

And making the blast radius smaller on the zepher isn't going to be the magical cure for their OPness. Its not hard to gun libs thats the problem, its fairy easy to land the shots on targets once you are used to it. Think it might be good to make them more cumbersome , make the guns twitchy or something so its quite hard to gun.


Between the gravity they've given the rounds (ie, same as sniper bullet drop) and the smaller blast radius.. we are going to see a whole lot less long range bombing while the lib is out of effective AA range. Therefore, libs will have to come into AA range to do bombing... more higher speed bombing runs... less hover-camping.

This combined with the AA increases we've seen, means a lot less rounds being thrown about. Libs will still be deadly as hell... but just for a shorter period of time and more likely to be chased off by combined AA.

It's another small step towards balancing... much better to do it in chunks than to nerf the hell out of something then swing it back and forth trying to balance it. I've already noticed more infantry running around on Matherson from the AA increase... i'm hoping that a drop in long range bombing will increase it even more, and require an effective lib to have a spotter or two for those juicy targets rather than floating around with impunity.

Btw, a zerged base will still have libs flying around killing everything... but it should be much easier to handle these guys in lower population fights.

[Calisai]

That's something i don't understand in this game , how tanks can be weak at their back yet aircraft don't have a weak spot.

If the front/cockpit of the aircraft was their weak spot it would make things interesting.

Ha... that would make rocket spamming quite interesting... spam those missiles at infantry and they may put a bullet through your cockpit into your head. :D

It would be cool to be able to snipe a pilot from his aircraft like you can do with the quads (if they render for ya... lol)

[Sledgecrushr]

They nerfed the nv range on aircraft. To me this is a big step in the right direction. Good job devs.

[CraazyCanuck]

The skyguard has improved velocity and clustering but is still behind the dual burster max imo in the time to kill their target. The skyguard should be atleast equivalent if not better.

[FreeSpeech]

I'll be more specific this time, what EXACTLY is wrong with Reaver or Mossy/Scythe?

Scythe - way too maneoverable - I've seen these things spin on the spot which just means that if one spots you, you're dead as you won't shake it off. After controlling one, it was so dam easy to use and I don't even use weird keybinding tricks with the pitch keys either.

It's weapons are also not half bad either. People claim they're all the same but the rockets seem to kill in less time than a Reaver's counterparts. But just generally it's a thin disc which already makes it a hard target and it can defy the laws of physics which is just too much.

The Mossy is probably the more balanced of the 3, but it still has a speed advantage over the Reaver and is a thinner target.

The Reaver has "NOTHING" going for it. Any claim it has higher damage is false. Liberators take 4 entire salvos of gun/rockets to die. ESF's still take at least 2 full salvos of the main cannon and we're talking the rotary vortek here, not the basic one. Not sure what the AA rockets are like, but most people have flares now.

It's a fatter target meaning enemies can hit it a lot easier and it's also as a result less maneoverable so you can't dodge as well. So essentially it's not either stronger, sturdier, faster or more agile than any of the other ships so there's zero point to it other than to be subpar to the other races, which NC is in general anyway. The Scythe is just SO much better to control and rape kills with.

[Sunrock]

Scythe - way too maneoverable - I've seen these things spin on the spot which just means that if one spots you, you're dead as you won't shake it off. After controlling one, it was so dam easy to use and I don't even use weird keybinding tricks with the pitch keys either.

It's weapons are also not half bad either. People claim they're all the same but the rockets seem to kill in less time than a Reaver's counterparts. But just generally it's a thin disc which already makes it a hard target and it can defy the laws of physics which is just too much.

The Mossy is probably the more balanced of the 3, but it still has a speed advantage over the Reaver and is a thinner target.

The Reaver has "NOTHING" going for it. Any claim it has higher damage is false. Liberators take 4 entire salvos of gun/rockets to die. ESF's still take at least 2 full salvos of the main cannon and we're talking the rotary vortek here, not the basic one. Not sure what the AA rockets are like, but most people have flares now.

It's a fatter target meaning enemies can hit it a lot easier and it's also as a result less maneoverable so you can't dodge as well. So essentially it's not either stronger, sturdier, faster or more agile than any of the other ships so there's zero point to it other than to be subpar to the other races, which NC is in general anyway. The Scythe is just SO much better to control and rape kills with.

I don't know... As a mossy pilot I kill scythe as easy/hard as reavers.... And I see my self as an average skilled pilot.

Maybe the gap between the reaver and the schthe is a little unbalanced but as I can't say the mossy vs scythe or the mossy vs reaver is unbalanced it most be so little that the skill of the pilot is allot more important then the design of the ESF.

[FreeSpeech]

I accept the Mossy is more balanced - in fact I'd rather all 3 ESF's were more like it in general feel. But it still is better than a Reaver any day. Nothing great about low damage, low agility, low health and fatter bulk!