Balance passes and our cert points

[LONGFELLA KOJ]

I just wanted to see what people thought about this.

If you decide to dump a ton of cert points, like 1000+, into something and then they nerf it to hell, is it fair that you just have to smile and take it? I haven't had a chance to read the fine print that SOE has put out with the guns/gear, but I'm sure they have covered themselves.

Cert points = hours/minutes/seconds of your life playing for a goal.
Station cash = Your hard earned money.

Just wanted to get a feel for the playerbase's opinion.

While I wait, I'll go ahead an get these pants down so they aren't in the way when SOE starts working.

[Rockit]

Yeah I thought about this too. Trouble is how would you quantify the nerf objectively for a refund. Say if they nerfed a weapon 20%, give you 20% of your purchase back but who is going to come to that number everyone can agree on. Also what of the case when they buff something? Pay them back? LOL. I get where you are coming from but the complexities involved will likely deter any action.

[Assist]

If there was a determined amount of certs you could get sure, but afaik you continue to gain certs even after getting 100?

It's the nature of games updating, just how it goes. I just dropped 3500 certs into my Galaxy because I figured one day it'll be useful :P I've got most everything I want by now and I still have 17 ranks to go. Which is sometimes like another 32,000 certs coming! or something like that, i think my math is wrong :<

[LONGFELLA KOJ]

Yeah I thought about this too. Trouble is how would you quantify the nerf objectively for a refund. Say if they nerfed a weapon 20%, give you 20% of your purchase back but who is going to come to that number everyone can agree on. Also what of the case when they buff something? Pay them back? LOL. I get where you are coming from but the complexities involved will likely deter any action.

That's a good point about the buff scenerio. But, if this happens, people who do not have the new buffed item have the choice to invest in it. You on the other hand do not have a choice if the situation goes the opposite way. You are stuck with it.

[MrBloodworth]

This falls under "Caveat emptor". You choose to buy it, its your. The end. This is how it works in reality.

[Sledgecrushr]

When I bought my skyguard I ended up only using it for one evening, it sucked. Thing about dumping huge amounts of cert points into the liberator and then they nerf it, well, you were probably getting inflated amounts of certs with the liberator anyways. In the end it will still be servicable just not an op flying tank death machine.

[Tox]

I don't see why there is any need to get refunded in any way. Maybe it would be appropriate to reset some certs and gain back some of the cert points. However, at the end of the day if you bought that cert because of some precocieved value and then the value is changed by a balancing pass you still have the cert and full use of it so whats the problem?

Flavor of the month/week/patch certs are just that, and offering a refund just reinforces that tactically migratory playstyle. Which, complicates overall game balance.

[MrBloodworth]

This falls under "Caveat emptor". You choose to buy it, its your. The end. This is how it works in reality.

[MrBloodworth]

Err, site hiccup!

[Bocheezu]

I don't understand the people that buy stuff like zephers, HE turrets, and grenade launchers knowing full well that the thing is overpowered (that's why they bought it) and then demand a refund when it gets nerfed. No one said the thing would be overpowered forever. You buy it to use it for the period that it's overpowered, nothing more. As the game progresses, there will be new weapons that will make old weapons obsolete; that is to be expected, otherwise nobody would buy any of the new items. Every weapon purchase is temporary power.

As far as cert purchases are concerned, I'm sure they'll eventually come up with a way to pay SC to recert, they would be dumb to miss out on that money-making opportunity.

[ringring]

Yeah I thought about this too. Trouble is how would you quantify the nerf objectively for a refund. Say if they nerfed a weapon 20%, give you 20% of your purchase back but who is going to come to that number everyone can agree on. Also what of the case when they buff something? Pay them back? LOL. I get where you are coming from but the complexities involved will likely deter any action.
The simplest case is the 2nd arm for the burster. I bought it and since then it's been through several iterations of nerfs and buffs.

And quite right too.

Are we really saying that either SOE can't do that or maybe that they should be refunding people on every nerf? It can't work like that.

[james]

Not going to happen, F2P games nerf all the time and you get nothing back. I am worried this game is going to go on this nerf cycle for weapons. If you look at the 3 new NC weapons they all where the best debatable in the class.

[LONGFELLA KOJ]

Well, I hate for this to become an "I'm looking for a refund" thread. Because I'm not. I too believe in the buyer beware motto. So, much like all of you, I do my research on a product before I buy it. And, by purchasing it I understand that it will remain in a state of flux as far as balance.

It's the group of people who cannot play as much as they would like. So they choose to invest the time they play (cert points) into 1 particular play style. Then along comes a patch and poof! your last 2 weeks of playtime has been pissed into irrelevance. Your 1000+ cert points you just invested into your sunderer just got bitchslapped by the C4 buff and now you have a timer every 20 minutes. This is a hypothetical example of course.

How about a token like the server swap idea from Higby. You buy it with Station Cash and it allows you to reclaim a portion of your cert points back. Like a recert in old PS1.

Just tossing it out there.

And none of this is coming from the fact I'm on the fence about that 1000+ nanoweave investment ;)

[Rockit]

They should just give everyone a free re-spec every so often. Would that suffice?

[Wahooo]

There is a really weird middle ground here but I would say there is also a difference between buying something with one intent and finding out it was not what you expected... ie skyguard. I bought it thinking it was a weapon intended to kill aircraft not just announce your presence and die to them. I demanded a refund and got it.

I purchased many other items, the grenade launcher BECAUSE it is OP. As was said I can't really expect a refund for a nerf.
Then I used SC to kit out the lib, the buff/nerf cycle on it has yet to be done, but the long and short of it as long as the weapons I bought stay useful even if they are nerfed I can't complain.

The issue is did you spend money on something they nerfed to uselessness? I don't see that having happened with any weapon yet. There are some that may have been a waste of money up front like the Jackhammer and Skyguard, and there have been nerfs that relative to their initial worth are significant, but I still don't think anything has been OVER nerfed (since release) to the point it is not living up to the intended original function.

[james]

Well, I hate for this to become an "I'm looking for a refund" thread. Because I'm not. I too believe in the buyer beware motto. So, much like all of you, I do my research on a product before I buy it. And, by purchasing it I understand that it will remain in a state of flux as far as balance.

It's the group of people who cannot play as much as they would like. So they choose to invest the time they play (cert points) into 1 particular play style. Then along comes a patch and poof! your last 2 weeks of playtime has been pissed into irrelevance. Your 1000+ cert points you just invested into your sunderer just got bitchslapped by the C4 buff and now you have a timer every 20 minutes. This is a hypothetical example of course.

How about a token like the server swap idea from Higby. You buy it with Station Cash and it allows you to reclaim a portion of your cert points back. Like a recert in old PS1.

Just tossing it out there.

And none of this is coming from the fact I'm on the fence about that 1000+ nanoweave investment ;)
Based on the business model, i doubt your see anything like that. Perhaps a payed cert reset may come out sometime. Sadly since SOE decided to bring a open beta to market, its going to be a problem for the next year or so

[Figment]

One acquires a weapon on the basis that it is useful. If you get something because it is overpowered, or even very powerful, you should still realise you signed an agreement that allows SOE to alter stuff.

When it comes to world of tanks, they only reimburse for replacement and tier changes by giving extra tankslots and/or free tanks. A purchase however, is a purchase.

[Baneblade]

As long as you can never reach a hard cap on cert points, there is no need for refunding.

[Sturmhardt]

This falls under "Caveat emptor". You choose to buy it, its your. The end. This is how it works in reality.

Yup... this discussion is futile. I have not seen any unfair nerfing in PS2 yet.

[Sleepy]

Though it's not fun for the buyer when a particular purchase is either:

1) Directly nerfed in a post-purchase patch
2) Rendered obsolete by new items and shifting Metagame

IMO the balance and/or progression of the game calls for such things, regardless if it's a F2P title or not. PS1 had this as well, and the results were generally acceptable as feedback was presented (though agonizingly slow at times, like most games). The Devs assemble a game and let it loose, and even though PS2 needed more months of Beta, inevitably various weapons would need further attention anyways.

Think of it as a Subscription in a sense - buying a new rifle every few months for $7 (or less with SC deals) is still cheaper than $15/month, every month. Sure, there are other things to spend SC on, but you aren't compelled to do so.

I personally wish the TTK would be raised to make room for more distinct weapon variation - SOE should have tried this in Beta, even if for just a month. Hopefully they'll try it in the future; which would mean most weapons would have a different feel entirely, as an example of a potential game improvement that would leave some purchases feeling underwhelming.

[EVILPIG]

One man's "nerf", is another man's "balance".

[StumpyTheOzzie]

They should just give everyone a free re-spec every so often. Would that suffice?

Can't possibly do that.

PS1 did that. You can't do anything from PS1, no matter how awesome it was.

You had a timer, but you could forget anything and learn somehting else of the same value. Pretty sure after major patches you got a "forget all" (I know you got a forget all sometimes, I'm just not sure when)

WoW does it. You have to pay, but you can do it.

But this game is not WoW or PS1.

So can you re-spec in BF or CoD?

[Palerion]

This falls under "Caveat emptor". You choose to buy it, its your. The end. This is how it works in reality.

Things don't get nerfed in real life...

[james]

Can't possibly do that.

PS1 did that. You can't do anything from PS1, no matter how awesome it was.

You had a timer, but you could forget anything and learn somehting else of the same value. Pretty sure after major patches you got a "forget all" (I know you got a forget all sometimes, I'm just not sure when)

WoW does it. You have to pay, but you can do it.

But this game is not WoW or PS1.

So can you re-spec in BF or CoD?
You don't need to for both BF3 and COD, you can have everything in around 50-100 hrs, besides camo's. I would expect to see a cert point reset thats buy able at some point.

[Sledgecrushr]

The thing is I dont think you ever need to respec when there is a never ending flow of certs. Just play the game some more and spend the certs that you accumulate.

[Ghoest9]

Are dumping points into something that you have realized is awesome?
Are you dumoing points into something that most people think is awesome?

In either case you should know what might be coming.

[MrBloodworth]

Things don't get nerfed in real life...

Bullshit.

[NewSith]

The game keeps track of all the earnt and spent certpoints (including those spent on weapons...)

My best guess there will be a cert reset sometime, especially since this game is still really REALLY raw.

[Tox]

I don't see why there is any need to get refunded in any way. Maybe it would be appropriate to reset some certs and gain back some of the cert points. However, at the end of the day if you bought that cert because of some precocieved value and then the value is changed by a balancing pass you still have the cert and full use of it so whats the problem?

Flavor of the month/week/patch certs are just that, and offering a refund just reinforces that tactically migratory playstyle. Which, complicates overall game balance.

[NewSith]

if you bought that cert because of some precocieved value and then the value is changed by a balancing pass you still have the cert and full use of it so whats the problem?

The stick has two ends usually. I think I annoyed the crap out of everyone with my concerns, but I'll say again:

Example:
Liberator body gets a nerf, because of how many Dalton and Zephyr Liberators there are. But that renders Shredder Liberator worthless and while it was perfectly balanced before the pass, it got totally UP after it.

In PS1 every vehicle had a preset number of weapons, thus all vehicles had one niche defined for them as their birthright. In PS2 Skyguard Lightning is not a Cannon Lightning, the two take completely different niches, while still being the same vehicle.

[Figment]

Things don't get nerfed in real life...

I'm quite sure things like stamps, adaptors, rechargeable battery types and other stuff people purchase before they need it often become obsolete due to being replaced.

[Sledgecrushr]

Im an electrician. Every three years we get a new codebook chock full of nerfs and changes. Its pretty fun adapting to new changes every couple of years. This process right now is moving a bit quicker for ps2. Still I find the changes are fun and adapting and getting good with new elements will keep this game fresh for years.

[Baneblade]

Things don't get nerfed in real life...

I was going to say this, then I realized it wasn't true.

[StumpyTheOzzie]

Yesss.. I see what you're saying... But I bought the zephyr because it was awesome.

Stamps, batteries, rechargers etc all still work the same way as the day your bought them (unless they broke, in which case you spawn a new one of the same model)

My zephyr is going to fundamentally change. It's not wear and tear.


I'm not fighting the changes though. I actually think they should have been worked out during a longer beta and I've done well (certwise) profiting from the zeph's OP. So I've gained more certs than I will lose, I'm quite sure about that.

As a compromise, can we have a re-spec that costs us.... 20%? I have sunk several hundred certs into Reaver at the start of my career and never used them. I can afford to do without them if it means I can pimp out my medic/infil using the certs currently invested in the liberator.

[Chaff]

People want to buy the weapon(s) that give them the best chances of winning, surviving, or OP-ng the competition. SOE has no choice but to adjust the weapon & game mechanics in the search of reaching a happy medium between fairness & bitching.

People buffed out GALs or LIBs for the farming. Those that jumped on the advantage early, got MORE than their share back in easy XP & Cert advancement. Those that jumped in later - that's life. Some but a stock before it hits, others but too late. Same with the housing market, etc....

Sony don't owe players jack after a nerf or buff. It sucks if it was your favorite play style, but making the game balanaced to a thelargest persentage of players possible is what's best for the game. If Sony makes adjustments to weapons for that reason we have to respect it - regardless which side of the benefit/loss we fall. Ultimatley these things aren't as big as them seem. If you weapon was OP 5 seconds or 5 years - be glad for what benefits you were fortunate enough to receive.

[LoliLoveFart]

Its a strange issue. Of course people are going to invest in something that is either incredibly powerful or incredibly easy to use. Just because people paid cash for that or put in a lot of hours doesnt means its balanced.
As for refunds. Its an MMO things get buffed and nerfed all the time I think we just have to stomach it. No point in saying the sky is falling till it actually falls :p

[Thunderhawk]

I personally dont see the harm in them doing that if they so wished (Cert Reset), I mean whoever played WoW knows whenever some serious changes were done, they offered clean reset of talents so people could choose how they wanted to carry on.

The game logs the total number of certs earnt since the beginning of time for your character, I am sure it's even in the stats if you take a look a bit more closely...

In fact, yes it does for me it's

Certification Points: 20173

So its not total unfeasible for them to do it.

Either way though, you play a game owned by Sony, so what you're doing - in my eyes - is paying for the privilege to rent the character from SOE so to speak, so they can do with it what they want.

fine either way, the only difference is that your char may end up being a little more tidy, then having half certed items, or things you went half into then decided not to cert fully.

My OCD side would love to clean up my char, but my realistic side thinks "meh"

[maradine]

You agree that SOE retains the unfettered right to modify its games and all aspects of characters, items, points and coin, including Station Cash (collectively, "Virtual Goods") therein. You acknowledge that SOE has been, is, and will be constantly making changes to its games. You further acknowledge that SOE can and will, in its discretion, modify features, functions or abilities of any element of any of its games or any Virtual Goods (which may, among other things, make the Virtual Goods substantially more valuable, effective or functional, or less valuable, effective or functional, more common or less common, or eliminated entirely). You acknowledge and agree that all Virtual Goods represent a limited license right governed by the terms of this Agreement, and are not redeemable for any sum of money or monetary value from SOE at any time.

Arguing fairness is usually more productive ahead of the "Agree" button. Planetside weapons are literally no more or less valuable than Farmville cows.

Still, I'd be miffed if zebra camo suddenly got nerfed.

[Figment]

As a compromise, can we have a re-spec that costs us.... 20%? I have sunk several hundred certs into Reaver at the start of my career and never used them. I can afford to do without them if it means I can pimp out my medic/infil using the certs currently invested in the liberator.

World of Tanks has a tank crew specialisation respec option. Free it costs experience points, if you pay silver (in-game stuff), it costs less. If you pay gold, it doesn't cost. If you pay silver or gold, you get small boosts in basic tank training when changing tanks, more costly reset by changing types of tanks too (so for example, from scout to medium or artillery, but then special skills don't reset: -20%, -10%, 0%).

Note, with an exponential skill point requirement to earn higher skill rates, that can be extremely costly in terms of time you need to regain it by playing. Especially if you're resetting a char with three developed skills.

[typhaon]

I think it's certainly a reasonable request. This is one of the reasons I've actually avoided dumping 1000 certs into the final level of any skills... the other being none of the final levels actually seem valuable (compared to what else I could do with the 1000 certs).

Weapons... I don't care too much about... buy your cash during 3x days and they cost about $2.33 each... at most. The certs on skills, however... those represent a lot of time spent in the game.

OTOH - I don't think SOE will implement any kind of a refund until the cries from the masses are loud enough.

[Towe]

If you decide to dump a ton of cert points, like 1000+, into something and then they nerf it to hell, is it fair that you just have to smile and take it? I haven't had a chance to read the fine print that SOE has put out with the guns/gear, but I'm sure they have covered themselves.

So you invested in something overpowered and it got balanced? Stop whining, at least you had your fun time using it when it was too good.

Did you ever think about people who invest in something underpowered? Shouldnt they get something for their certs/money?

Things should be balanced, not only that everyone gets something for their certs, but to make the game better.

And what do you mean you didnt have the chance to read fineprint? At least be onest and admit that you were too lazy.

[LONGFELLA KOJ]

So you invested in something overpowered and it got balanced? Stop whining, at least you had your fun time using it when it was too good.

Did you ever think about people who invest in something underpowered? Shouldnt they get something for their certs/money?

Things should be balanced, not only that everyone gets something for their certs, but to make the game better.

And what do you mean you didnt have the chance to read fineprint? At least be onest and admit that you were too lazy.


It's people like you that make participating in a forum conversation such a rewarding experience. You're right. I'll just uninstall the game, hop in the car and drive myself into oncoming traffic.

[Figment]

It's people like you that make participating in a forum conversation such a rewarding experience. You're right. I'll just uninstall the game, hop in the car and drive myself into oncoming traffic.

Don't be a dramaqueen and answer the man.

[Hamma]

Yea this is one of those it is what it is things. You bought it and it could be modified at any time really.

[psijaka]

If you decide to dump a ton of cert points, like 1000+, into something and then they nerf it to hell, is it fair that you just have to smile and take it? I haven't had a chance to read the fine print that SOE has put out with the guns/gear, but I'm sure they have covered themselves.

It's fair although slightly frustrating. It's not as if spending certs costs money, and time should not be a factor IMO, as we are playing for enjoyment and entertainment (aren't we?).

Not fair at all to nerf things that people pay SC for though, although I'm sure that the men in grey suits have made sure that SoE are covered if they do go down this route. If this happened, I would expect the option of beign able to relinquish the item and get an SC refund.

This happened in a big way over on Battlefield Play4Free, guns only available for cash were nerfed to hell (late 2011), and people were then expected to RENT upgrades for them to make them useable. Huge outcry on the forums but to no avail - tough luck - EAsy were covered by their legal small print. No way to treat your community though; hopefully will not happen here.

[sneeek]

If you buy a gun (using station cash) and it gets slightly nerfed, then OK, fair enough.

Suppose you trial a gun using the in-game feature, and it seems highly effective, and you buy it (using station cash). SOE then go and nerf it to the point that you regret your purchase. Isn't this pretty much bait-and-switch for a service? Isn't "buyer beware" here tantamount to saying that it's your responsibility to predict which items are going to get nerfed and which aren't? That seems wrong to me.

Well, I've spent precisely nothing on the game so far, but I can see where those who want a refund option are coming from.

[SixShooter]

I bought a Skyguard turret for my Lighning on release day, knowing full well how much it had been nerfed the week. I understand that things get nerfed and buffed and that eventually the Skyguard will be usefull again at some point in time. Balance will be constantly changing over the life of the game and just because something gets nerfed does not mean that it will not be eventually balanced. That's the way I see it anyhow.
:cheers: