Come out and FIGHT!

[Canaris]

I'm really looking forward to the January patch lots of good changes and additions to try out.
One thing that kind of bothers me and has since tech is the shields around spawn rooms and teleporter rooms giving the people inside the ability to shoot out.

I was watching the Maggy & Jimmy show or FNO as they call it ;)
The segment on the new spawn rooms caught my attention given the new huge fields of view that the defenders of a base can now just shoot out of and not have any danger or jeopardy or retaliation from attackers.

Honestly I'm of the opinion that having a safe spawn room is fine and the ability to check and see if the enemy are camping it but I feel that those inside should need to come out to fight instead of cowering behind a shield inside to get some cheap kills and I have the gut feeling the new additions will exasperate this.

So my solution is to make all shields on spawn rooms bullet proof so neither side can shoot in or out. Make the defenders need to leave the spawn room to defend the base.

I know the draw back again stems from the attackers swamping over the spawn room to camp it but to be fair the dev's are adding in lots of ways now to exit these buildings and give far better observation points to judge just what's outside.

Anyone else feel this way?

[Redshift]

The idea is that it becomes a bad idea to shield camp so you need to defend from further back, it's still not really a good solution.

[Mox]

Is that what they understand by better defensible bases? Just make it easier for the defender to killwhore while being camped at the spawns! What a stupid idea! Is there some celebral virus at soe hq.....

[Dougnifico]

Honestly, those spawn rooms are hard to camp as intended and should work very well assuming you limit the field of view from the shields.

[Kerrec]

It is the intention of the new spawn rooms to be able to murder anyone "stupid" enough to be in line of sight of it. The spawn rooms themselves are going to be placed in areas where they cannot offer any kind of defense to the actual objectives. So it doesn't help one little bit if everyone is inside the spawn rooms while the objective is being taken.

In order to defend the objective, they WILL have to come out and fight.

[Figment]

That's pretty much why I stated the spawnroom should be a safe room with an infantry buffer zone inside the same building - and the CC should be reachable from there.

Because then the defender does have to leave the spawnroom if they want to get kills and if they want to defend, but they're more able to defend at least.

The upcoming system only solves direct spawncamping and risks turning it into spawnfarming, where staying inside the box is more beneficial to your K/D.




The design problem I think they're not willing to compromise on is that they do not want to create much larger buildings (size of towers and slightly bigger) everywhere out of an irrational fear of PS1 Interlink farms and wasting development time (which is what they're doing now).

The design elements of the building itself are generally good - just it lacks the buffer zone between "ultimate safety" and "ultimate danger", both are retained in this new design.

[Canaris]

That's pretty much why I stated the spawnroom should be a safe room with an infantry buffer zone inside the same building - and the CC should be reachable from there.

Because then the defender does have to leave the spawnroom if they want to get kills and if they want to defend, but they're more able to defend at least.

The upcoming system only solves direct spawncamping and risks turning it into spawnfarming, where staying inside the box is more beneficial to your K/D.




The design problem I think they're not willing to compromise on is that they do not want to create much larger buildings (size of towers and slightly bigger) everywhere out of an irrational fear of PS1 Interlink farms and wasting development time (which is what they're doing now).

The design elements of the building itself are generally good - just it lacks the buffer zone between "ultimate safety" and "ultimate danger", both are retained in this new design.

going to coin this now, "pillboxes" is how they will be referred to in a few days after the patch goes live and it won't be a term of endearment ;)

[ringring]

I must admit I look on the one-way shooting from the spawn rooms as a Darwin survival test. If you allow the people inside to kill you you have failed the test. And oddly many people do (even though I often say not to stand in from of the shield).

I feel the same about the new spawn room. But, you're right about it being more open. If the openess makes it impossible to get the right angles to be able to hold it down then it fails.

But, given the comments on FNO about being concerned about making it a fortress then it seems the devs are on the ball about this.

It should not be impossible for it to be camped by infantry (given that we can't destroy spawns in ps2) while it should be impossible for it to be camped by aircraft and tanks.

We can only wait and see it in action.

[Canaris]

I must admit I look on the one-way shooting from the spawn rooms as a Darwin survival test.

We can only wait and see it in action.

:lol: it's so true, shame about rebirthing tech ruining the Darwin system though.
I know we need to see how the changes play out but that little devil was sitting on my shoulder while I watched the FNO he tells me all sorts of bad things, would be remiss of me not to mention my concern :)

[Sledgecrushr]

Im excited to see the new defensive structures. I think its going to be good fun.

[psijaka]

I'm happy enough with the changes, and it's worth a try at least to see how it works out in practice. Anyone stupid enough to go prancing around outside a spawn shield get what they deserve.

[Figment]

Obviously.

First to say "If you get spawnfarmed, fight somewhere else!" is going to be the new catch phrase of the Status Quo.



Although I will maintain that a building revision is (still) needed. >.>


At least we got them to provide wider entrances and a decently protected roof and they're basically listening to the suggestions, that's definitely positive. Now if only the entire building was bigger. :lol: Please note, I AM glad they're revising the buildings. But I'm not going to be content too soon, SOE devs have this tendency of overshooting marks either which way (often on purpose "to find the proper balance"). :)

[Sledgecrushr]

I am really hoping that with these changes that the fighting will hit a new level of intensity and that intensity will last a bit longer. I love the initial fighting at most of these bases but it quickly devolves into a boring spawn camp. Fingers crossed on this one.

[Hamma]

Yea I can't say I'm a fan of defenders being able to shoot out and with the size of these doors and the number of windows it will be even easier for people to sit inside and camp.

I think there should be a timer in the spawn room - once you spawn you have 20 seconds to get out or you are killed. That way people can't sit in there farming with no fear of being killed.

[bpostal]

This all stems from the simple fact that spawn tubes should be destroyable. Plus their status should be shown on the map so that they can be responded to if necessary.
As to the change itself, I don't mind it as much. It looks like it can be used as a pillbox as Canaris said, with the ability to provide suppressing fire in support of a push outwards into the base. As long as the field of view is somewhat restricted to the immediate area then I don't see any major issues.

[Wargrim]

It is all about placement. Currently, spawnroom placement is outright horrible in many of the bases on Indar and Esamir. The new spawnrooms will force the level designers to put more thought into placement, to prevent the indestructable super bunker of doom with 360° field of fire. They will most likely put it between buildings / obstacles, making it a more integral part of outpost designs. THIS IS A GOOD THING.

[Hamma]

Yea I really enjoyed when we had SCU's at Towers and Outposts.

[VR Draco]

It is quite easy. NOW you can camp a spawn-room with about 6 people and nobody will come out, unless they organise. That is quite stupid AND boring, for both sides.

The new spawn-room will bring the fight where it belongs...to the capture points.
So the attackers have to defend the capture point and NOT the damn spawn-room.
That is what it should be and I think that is how this is intended.

If the defenders sit inside the spawn-room and wait for Darvin-Victims (I like this :p) they will just loose.
If the attackers just try to camp the spawn-room, they will get many casualties.
So the fight will concentrate on the capture points......

[Crator]

Yea I can't say I'm a fan of defenders being able to shoot out and with the size of these doors and the number of windows it will be even easier for people to sit inside and camp.

I think there should be a timer in the spawn room - once you spawn you have 20 seconds to get out or you are killed. That way people can't sit in there farming with no fear of being killed.

I do not agree with the "timer in a friendly spawn room then die" idea. It doesn't allow the defenders the appropriate time to gather force and attack as one.

Why not just make the entire spawn room closed in. You can't see what's going on outside unless you go out of the spawn room and same goes for the attackers. Make the doors solid, so you can't see in or out unless you open them.

It is quite easy. NOW you can camp a spawn-room with about 6 people and nobody will come out, unless they organise. That is quite stupid AND boring, for both sides.

The new spawn-room will bring the fight where it belongs...to the capture points.
So the attackers have to defend the capture point and NOT the damn spawn-room.
That is what it should be and I think that is how this is intended.

If the defenders sit inside the spawn-room and wait for Darvin-Victims (I like this :p) they will just loose.
If the attackers just try to camp the spawn-room, they will get many casualties.
So the fight will concentrate on the capture points......

With enough attacking force (amount of players) it would be most advantageous to cover both capture points and the spawn room. Camping a spawn room will still happen if they make it more defensible, but only by infantry which is how it should be. The crux of the spawn room defensibility issue currently is that the defenders are vulnerable to vehicle spam and are not setup properly in relation to the gens and capture points.

Also, attackers sitting inside a spawn room should take damage over time. This would make it so they can't sit right on top of the spawns, in turn giving the defenders some sort of a chance to gather forces and attempt to resecure the location.

[VR Draco]

Why not just make the entire spawn room closed in. You can't see what's going on outside unless you go out of the spawn room and same goes for the attackers. Make the doors solid, so you can't see in or out unless you open them.

That will end in the same thing as we have now.
On every door would be one tank or some infantry, pointing at the door waiting for it to open. When the defenders come out, they will die in seconds, like now.

The goal is to bring the fight away from the spawn-rooms....

[Babyfark McGeez]

...I think there should be a timer in the spawn room - once you spawn you have 20 seconds to get out or you are killed. That way people can't sit in there farming with no fear of being killed.

And here i thought it wouldn't be possible to come up with ideas that would make spawn rooms even worse, but you managed to do it. :D

The direction the devs are going is good, just imo they are only halfway there. The obnoxious huts themselves are now being fixed, unfortunately i didn't read anything about their positioning which, from my experience, is the other half of the spawnroom problem.
Worst offending example here is "Briggs Laboratory", a small isolated hut clearly outside the actual "outpost". Attackers are having a shorter way to the cap point 99% of the time regardless of their sundy-position (additonally to the allready lower respawn time due to sunderers).

So unless the position of the spawnrooms is being adressed aswell it will not really fix anything.

[Crator]

That will end in the same thing as we have now.
On every door would be one tank or some infantry, pointing at the door waiting for it to open. When the defenders come out, they will die in seconds, like now.

The goal is to bring the fight away from the spawn-rooms....

Have you played PS1 before? Vehicle spam wouldn't happen if the spawns and the doors to them were inside a location where no vehicles can see it.

And to comment on the attacking troops outside the door, so be it. If the attackers (as infantry) are able to get good position on a spawn door then they are doing their job well. If the capture points and gens are better placed in relation to the spawns (better coverage from vehicle spam) then the defenders can hold out longer against larger forces but not for forever. If larger forces are attacking the location you'll always have attacking forces guarding spawns regardless, that's part of a command/squad leader's job to ensure your forces are all positioned properly. It's a matter of giving the defenders a chance to come back (and only if the spawns are not destroyed in the first place). But if spawns are destroyed (given there's enough time allocated to try and come back to the location to save it before it is captured) the ability to overwhelm the SCU to repair it and spawn back to save it. *IMO, the SCU should go away and make it so attackers have to destroy the spawn tubes themselves. The reverse of that is the owning empire has to get back inside the spawn room to attempt to repair the spawn if destroyed.

[igster]

Just for outposts, replace Spawn Rooms with *gasp* Spawn Tubes. (Crazy idea but it might just work!!)
Gonna go out on a limb here, but - what the hell. Put a pain field in the spawn room to prevent excessively cheesy spawn camping.

So you kill the Spawn by fighting through it.

Reason SCU's were bad on outposts was that the SCU is on the other side of the base and was prone to scroat play.

[Palerion]

If you will excuse me, I'm not a Planetside 1 vet, what are spawn tubes, and how would they work to fix the problem?

By the way, I don't like the defenders shooting out of the doors for free kills, but a 20 second timer before taking damage seems counterproductive.

Sometimes I hang out in the spawn room and change my loadout, and I can assure you that takes more than 20 seconds.

I think there could be a better way to make the defenders get out and fight.

[ShadetheDruid]

I think there could be a better way to make the defenders get out and fight.

I think allowing them to push back the attackers so they can get out without getting instagibbed as soon as they pass through the shield is a good start, we'll just have to see how the new spawn rooms perform in practice.

[Mox]

I cant understand why anyone like these changes. Wider doors will increase camping. There is no way camping will decrease because now it is also interesting for the defenders to camp.

[VR Draco]

I cant understand why anyone like these changes. Wider doors will increase camping. There is no way camping will decrease because now it is also interesting for the defenders to camp.

But you WILL loose the base, IF you camp, because you can't defend the capture points from the spawn room.
And you CAN'T camp the new spawn-rooms (that easy) because they can shoot out at a 360° and many more ppl can shoot out.

So as a defender you HAVE to fight at the capture points and as a attacker you HAVE to fight at the capture points.

I don't see your problem...

[RykerStruvian]

Smaller bases shouldn't have spawn tubes or spawn rooms at all. Towers and facilities (Amp stations, tech plants, etc) should have spawn rooms.

[VR Draco]

Smaller bases shouldn't have spawn tubes or spawn rooms at all.

That would make defending those bases even harder than now.

The attacker usually comes with a spawn-sunderer and so the attackers CAN respawn if they die. But if the attacker destroys the vehicle terminal (no Sunderer), the defenders have NO chance to respawn and defend that base. And its quite easy to destroy those terminals, but finding and destroying a Sunderer is not that easy.

Happy circle zerging, because NO ONE could defend anything without a spawn-room.

[Crator]

If you will excuse me, I'm not a Planetside 1 vet, what are spawn tubes, and how would they work to fix the problem?

Spawn tubes are the structures you exit when you spawn in a spawn room. Instead of having a remote gen that controls the spawn tubes (SCU) make the tubes themselves destroyable. This allows the defending force to have a literal last stand mechanic.

[Babyfark McGeez]

Actually removing spawn points from outposts completely isn't even such a bad idea; It would focus players on one spawn-location, thus increasing the chance for loose groups to band up.
It could have a quite similar effect as a lattice system.

But incase the devs lack the balls to play around with such core mechanics in a live game (*TEASE*) making spawn points destroyable in whatever way would also be acceptable.

[bpostal]

Just for outposts, replace Spawn Rooms with *gasp* Spawn Tubes. (Crazy idea but it might just work!!)
Gonna go out on a limb here, but - what the hell. Put a pain field in the spawn room to prevent excessively cheesy spawn camping.

So you kill the Spawn by fighting through it.

Reason SCU's were bad on outposts was that the SCU is on the other side of the base and was prone to scroat play.

Tubes would be, in my mind, the best solution. The only thing I would do in addition however, would be to add the status of the tubes on the map itself so that you have an indication as to whether they're up or not.
Yes, you will have people who do nothing but fly around and blow up tubes to locations they can't hack but if you bring the pain fields up to a 'boosted' level similar to Planetside then the guy blowing the tube has to be careful about it.

[Rivenshield]

Call me an atavistic old fart, but I say put the spawn room at the end of a long defensible hallway with alcoves to hide in, and make the spawn tubes destructible.

This milquetoast ritual of box the defenders into the spawn room, then wait for the flag to flip is boring and pointless and no fun. Total vindictive victory by gunning the defenders in their own tubes *is* fun. Plus it lends a doggone sense of urgency to the defenders' mad rush out.

[Baneblade]

The new spawn rooms are going to promote coming out and fighting now that you don't die the instant a pixel crosses the shield to enemies camping locking down a kill zone.

[Figment]

Actually removing spawn points from outposts completely isn't even such a bad idea; It would focus players on one spawn-location, thus increasing the chance for loose groups to band up.
It could have a quite similar effect as a lattice system.

But incase the devs lack the balls to play around with such core mechanics in a live game (*TEASE*) making spawn points destroyable in whatever way would also be acceptable.

They actually started that way in tech test. There was no fighting over outposts, they were just checkpoints. Note: there were no AMSes, but Galaxies functioned as spawnpoint. Those did not suffice to take such spots for obvious reasons to people who ever saw the size of a Galaxy.

If there were outposts without any spawns of their own, there would have to be good defensive positions to park AMSes. I could see such areas be good fortified vantage points for offenses, once an AMS is in position there. It would be easier to deal with than an outpost that keeps flipping sides.

But people would only make use of these areas if there's something in it for them, if there's a direct, important, tangible effect on the flow of battle. This could be stalling an advance by setting up a defensive at a chokepoint that absolutely has to be traversed (note the ease of circumventing areas in this game though!), or it could be mounting an offensive on a bigger facility, like a PS1 tower or PS2 base outpost, or an area in the vicinity of a hard to take base or area.

If it's just a random area in between two actual bases, no fight would develop around these areas as these positions would be completely ignored (see Tech Test).

[Figment]

Yea I really enjoyed when we had SCU's at Towers and Outposts.

Depends on how far from the spawns they were. Some were a 150m away (waaaaaaay too far). Some in the next building (already too far!). They killed fights at those distances because nobody could get to them before they were killed (regardless of time it takes to destroy them, it's just spawncamp spawncamp spawncamp vehicle/infantry crossfire to overcome before you can think of resetting).

When it's too far away, you create a situation where people will actively have to babysit it without knowing whether or not someone is actually going for it and thus people won't bother. This is made worse by making this area void of reinforcements and incredibly open, tiny room (most SCU rooms in beta), making you prone to die (indefensible, easy to AoE spam and flush out any defenders), by which time it is doomed because you can't get back to it due to being cut off.

This means it's boring to do, not rewarding to do and extremely demanding to do. Consequence? People won't do it.


SCU's in itself aren't a bad thing, but they should be right next to the spawnroom in a position where the attackers take the most risk trying to take it out. Just like getting into a spawnroom in PS1 that was occupied wasn't exactly the most healthy or easy thing to get to and take out. It has to be part of the natural last line defensive perimeter of players (extremely close to the spawnroom itself), so it's a natural reaction to notice it, get there and try to stop the SCU from blowing up in a hectic battle.

Since spawntubes lead to tube camping, but this should be the most personal way to feel you've made a last stand and be in a natural defense vicinity, to me the best place seems to be one room away (5-15m at most, 30m is IMO already too far). If we're talking PS1, think "kitchen area" or "med term/locker" area as longest distance to travel, but equipment term distance would already suffice.

[Palerion]

I think I'm confused as to how the whole capture process occurs now, to be honest.

So, as of right now, is it possible to absolutely cut off defender spawning and consequently capture the base by destroying something, and not by simply sitting on the spawn room until the base is captured?

If not I vote we switch from the time-based capture system to simply destroying the enemy's systems.

Much like space matches in Star Wars Battlefront 2 (If you have played the game, it's fun. Much of my childhood consists of it), defenders could have a system(s) that the attackers must destroy in order to maintain superiority.

The system(s) would be repairable by defenders and destructible by attackers, and located near the spawn.

Destroying these system(s) = immediate takeover. No stupid waiting.

Or did I just sum up the spawn tube idea?

P.S. In writing this I just thought of something: What if destroying all the generators on a base would shut all the lights off? o.O

[BIGGByran]

I believe the best solution to this "spawn" issue is:

1) When the SCU blows, it removes the "protective" shield in the spawn room so the attacking force can kill the remaining defenders and then after it is clear. They can move on to the objective.
- Sooooo SCU = No more respawn and no more protective shield

2) Well thats all I got, thought I had more. Whatcha guys think?

[Figment]

@Palerion: Currently camping is incenticed as the most effective and easy way to take over.

Spawntubes and take over are two separate things though. Taking out the first makes it easier to take over the other as you deny local respawns. In PS1, keeping the tubes up meant a serious and constant threat of reinforcements trying to reach the CC through completely internal-to-building infantry combat (aside from Core Combat, which was much like the outpost situation in PS2: horrible and constant camping). Hence in bases above ground, fights often revolved around keeping spec ops teams from getting the spawns back up, as this could make even small groups a serious threat to the CC, even against much bigger groups, simply because they had much shorter logistical lines (shorter travel distance, thus mitigating enemy numbers who'd drop in, by having a more constant, swifter return of killed defenders).

In towers, attackers had to nestle themselves in between the tower's CC defense and the towers spawns, stopping the CC from receiving reinforcements, while thinning out the CC defenders. Again, completely dominated by hectic, personal CQC, internal building infantry fighting.

[Zulthus]

Hey, know what would be a real easy fix? Put the spawn rooms underground.

[Boomzor]

Again, completely dominated by hectic, personal CQC, internal building infantry fighting.

Save for the 5-meter dash past the ground floor doors which were inevitably camped by MBTs, BFR's and Deli variants (and thumper/maelstrom wielding spam lords), but you had the surge implant for that :D


know what would be a real easy fix? Put the spawn rooms underground.
Not really, as it all depends on the exits from the spawns. They need to lead to a location safe from vehicle spam and within reach of the key locations - generators and capture points. They also need to bring a certain element of unpredictability so the attackers can't camp them all without spreading too thin unless the have clearly overwhelming numbers.

[bpostal]

...
If there were outposts without any spawns of their own, there would have to be good defensive positions to park AMSes. I could see such areas be good fortified vantage points for offenses, once an AMS is in position there. It would be easier to deal with than an outpost that keeps flipping sides....

If you recall the building the BFR is parked in on Indar. Pretty much a multistory spawn building...Add a long hallway with a door/hall large enough to drive a bus into on the front of the building, seal up the bottom side doors and you've got a fortified garage of sorts.

Put 'em up (along with some pillboxes and the like) at geographical chokepoints and with luck you'll get some action.

[Figment]

Save for the 5-meter dash past the ground floor doors which were inevitably camped by MBTs and Deli variants (and thumper/maelstrom wielding spam lords), but you had the surge implant for that :D

Or you kept the doors close and EMPed them if doors opened. But yeah, they should have added more cover right outside the door.


. /---\

==---==
|| . stairs up
|| . ===
|| . stairs down
==---==

. \___/

Possibly with another (set of) layer(s) of infantry anti-tank obstruction defenses around that.


EDIT: Either way, to me the flow should be (in two directions):


1. Spawn room
2A. Terminal room -> SCU room -> Infantry only bufferzone
2B. Terminal room -> Infantry only bufferzone -> SCU room
2C. (Terminal room ->) Infantry only bufferzone -> Outside (high ground/other exits)
2D. (Terminal room ->) Infantry only bufferzone -> CC room

1. Outside (high ground/other entry points)
2A. Infantry only bufferzone -> CC room
2B. Infantry only bufferzone -> Terminal room -> Spawn room
2C. Infantry only bufferzone -> SCU -> Terminal room -> Spawn room

Multi-linear large building design.

[Zulthus]

Not really, as it all depends on the exits from the spawns. They need to lead to a location safe from vehicle spam and within reach of the key locations - generators and capture points. They also need to bring a certain element of unpredictability so the attackers can't camp them all without spreading too thin unless the have clearly overwhelming numbers.

True, but the tunnels from the spawns could lead up into the many useless and empty buildings we have in the outposts. There would be multiple angles to engage campers from this way. Perhaps even a backdoor could be used, a passage that leads a bit farther away from the outpost that could be used for a counterattack if all other exits are camped. All I'm saying is there's plenty of better ideas than what they showed in the FNO video. They improved on the current design, but kind of missed the point of the spawn room. As Figment said, they're just an impenetrable bunker right now.

They have the ability to implement underground tunnels now, it wouldn't be a bad idea to try and apply it to the outposts.