Reddit Style Voting for Six Month Plan [Archive]

Hamma

2013-01-24, 12:52 PM

Rahabib

2013-01-24, 12:57 PM

Sony had this for the playstation network (probably where they got it from). However 99.9% of the suggestions were ignored. However, the really popular ideas were actually good ones. The dumb ideas trend for a few days then fall off.

Problem is, top things on this will be "make x more like PS1." Be ready for #1 idea to be "lattice" :P

stordito

2013-01-24, 12:58 PM

Maybe we should wait and see how the thing is handled first?

Sunrock

2013-01-24, 12:59 PM

Javelin

2013-01-24, 12:59 PM

So basic democracy is not your thing?

..influenced by large groups of people

Why would what the majority wants be a bad thing? Why should small sections of a group have more influence over larger ones?

ZaiRoX

2013-01-24, 12:59 PM

This sort of crap is to easily influenced by large groups of people and influential individuals.

Just like any other demographic election? :)

AnamNantom

2013-01-24, 01:01 PM

Like I said on twitter, I hope the SOE guys only use this feedback as a tool. That, they, like a good Constitutional Republic (not Terran, mind you) remember that the sheep have machine guns, that two wolves do NOT determine what's for dinner, if you catch my drift.

They are the caretakers of Planetside 2 and we are it's citizens. Democracy by popular vote is flawed, Constitutional Republics are the best!

Rahabib

2013-01-24, 01:02 PM

I think the major problem is, we are not seeing the data they are seeing. its good to have a suggestion, its another to implement a poor one because it doesn't fix the real problem.

maradine

2013-01-24, 01:02 PM

Game design is not a democracy. It's execution of a creative vision. Woe to the world where this is no longer the case. While I understand the drivers that have put them here, I'm pretty sure this isn't the way out.

Javelin

2013-01-24, 01:05 PM

We get to participate in this games future, and that's bad?

Crator

2013-01-24, 01:09 PM

So basic democracy is not your thing?

Why would what the majority wants be a bad thing? Why should small sections of a group have more influence over larger ones?

Don't use Reddit that much myself. How easy is it to create an account? Couldn't one just create multiple accounts to up the vote for an idea? This sound exploitable.

maradine

2013-01-24, 01:09 PM

We get to participate in this games future, and that's bad?

We weren't participating before?

FridayUK

2013-01-24, 01:11 PM

Hmm interesting (aww poor PlanetSide Tracker (http://planetside-tracker.com/) getting made redundant!?).

I understand your concerns and how vocal / popular people can influence others disproportionately (magnifying what may already be a skewed opinion; based on the sample of people voting). I also note that you've mentioned about trying to explicitly avoid airing many strong opinions to specifically avoid doing that with respect to PS.

Personally I'm a big fan of having visibility of community feedback and the actual popularity of ideas; certainly versus "trying to post the number of threads about something" - which dominates a lot of forums and is hard for rational discussion and reasonable people to compete with.

I think if there is enough feedback *and* the metrics are good enough it can be a really good way to judge what a community is thinking about a topic, in a way forums can make difficult. I have lot of sympathy with the encouragement of higher value responses though; in particular in preference to encouraging low value comments. Stuff like the "MBT dedicated gunner" post (originally from PSU, reposted by the author on PST) are great examples of a case well argued, and it's not the only one.

Getting both of those right is tricky though - and does really require more rating options and tools than just up / down votes. Long term observation of many responses and smart questions (of the sort okcupid.com does) can be really useful though.

While I might be sad to make PST redundant, I'm really interested to see what they've been working on. I hope they can keep it less official forum and reddit like (because that's catered for already) and a bit more structured & designed to promote quality feedback.

Edit: Would caveat the above by agreeing whole heartedly that feedback should always be taken with a pinch of salt and agreeing that the wise "benevolent dictator" approach tends to lead to better products.

Javelin

2013-01-24, 01:13 PM

Don't use Reddit that much myself. How easy is it to create an account? Couldn't one just create multiple accounts to up the vote for an idea? This sound exploitable.

We haven't seen the system yet , so how could we have a real discussion about it.

We weren't participating before?

And this is another form of that. The listening to loudest voices is not the only way to get feedback on something.

Crator

2013-01-24, 01:14 PM

We haven't seen the system yet , so how could we have a real discussion about it.

And this is another form of that. The listening to loudest voices is not the only way to get feedback on something.

True. But does it hurt to ask questions?

Tatwi

2013-01-24, 01:16 PM

I don't like this at all. Votes are exploitable, popularity contests are not the way to decide the six month plan. Let people discuss, read the feedback and decide how to proceed.

This sort of crap is to easily influenced by large groups of people and influential individuals.

The Zerg already decides the outcome of the game IN game.

I agree with your concern.

Actual discussion, which leads to compromise, consideration, and often times better ways to accomplish the same goals, are what drive projects toward success.

Voting: Bad.

SOE reading and taking part in discussions: Good.

Pretty simple.

As long as the threads are heavily moderated and actually frequented by the appropriate developers, then the end result should be in line with what the community expects from the game. However, accomplishing this task is going to be a real challenge; I can only imagine the amount of "shouting down" of people's well thought out concepts that is going to happen, because so many people simply can't accept that others may feel differently than they do and that it's perfectly normal and healthy to do so.

Javelin

2013-01-24, 01:18 PM

True. But does it hurt to ask questions?

No its does not. However you can see this tread is quickly going to "this system sucks" before we get the details.

Hamma is an awesome guy, but I feel he set a bad tone for the whole thread without having the full picture.

Sunrock

2013-01-24, 01:20 PM

So basic democracy is not your thing?

Why would what the majority wants be a bad thing? Why should small sections of a group have more influence over larger ones?

Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried. - Winston Churchill

But just because a majority wants something does not mean it's bad but it does not mean it's good either.

You know that the burned people just because they sad the earth was round and the majority thought that was a good thing 600 years ago.

The problem is that the majority of players are casual players that want instant gratification and want to fuck over every player that loves to play games for more then 2 hours a week.

p0intman

2013-01-24, 01:22 PM

creating 100 alt accounts to exploit vote numbers for basically free is a go? c/d?

furthermore, can i get a ruling on the legality of selling my votes?

Javelin

2013-01-24, 01:23 PM

Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried. - Winston Churchill

But just because a majority wants something does not mean it's bad but it does not mean it's good either.

You know that the burned people just because they sad the earth was round and the majority thought that was a good thing 600 years ago.

The problem is that the majority of players are casual players that want instant gratification and want to fuck over every player that loves to play games for more then 2 hours a week.

So whats the alternative?

Crator

2013-01-24, 01:23 PM

No its does not. However you can see this tread is quickly going to "this system sucks" before we get the details.

Hamma is an awesome guy, but I feel he set a bad tone for the whole thread without having the full picture.

Sure, but what else do you talk about other then speculation of what you think could be bad about it? A lot of times threads involve speculation. I see nothing wrong with proposing what could be an issue and it's not against the forum rules to do so.

maradine

2013-01-24, 01:26 PM

And this is another form of that. The listening to loudest voices is not the only way to get feedback on something.

I don't think I'm arguing against that; I think I'm arguing against the notion that popular feedback will necessarily lead to a game that more people want to play. I worked in the most heavily instrumented and data-driven game development shop on the planet, and have first-hand, real-live data on the disparity between what crowd sourced feedback demands, vs. whether it was what they actually wanted, vis a vis whether they played more or less after any particular changes were made.

Do I think there are brilliant voices in the community? Yes. Do I think the community has a role in shaping the game? Yes. Do I think good intentions pave the road to hell? Yes.

We'll have to see how it shakes out. As you say, we don't even have a strawman to argue over. :)

Javelin

2013-01-24, 01:27 PM

Sure, but what else do you talk about other then speculation of what you think could be bad about it? A lot of times threads involve speculation. I see nothing wrong with proposing what could be an issue and it's not against the forum rules to do so.

Of course. However we should all keep in mind what we don't know all the details yet.

Sunrock

2013-01-24, 01:28 PM

So whats the alternative?

That I was the Emperor of the Word :groovy:

ShadetheDruid

2013-01-24, 01:31 PM

Javelin

2013-01-24, 01:31 PM

I don't think I'm arguing against that; I think I'm arguing against the notion that popular feedback will necessarily lead to a game that more people want to play. I worked in the most heavily instrumented and data-driven game development shop on the planet, and have first-hand, real-live data on the disparity between what crowd sourced feedback demands, vs. whether it was what they actually wanted, vis a vis whether they played more or less after any particular changes were made.

Do I think there are brilliant voices in the community? Yes. Do I think the community has a role in shaping the game? Yes. Do I think good intentions pave the road to hell? Yes.

We'll have to see how it shakes out. As you say, we don't even have a strawman to argue over. :)

I can agree with all that. Just want to say while the "mob" can be dumb it shouldn't be discounted either. (not that I think you are saying that)

Ghoest9

2013-01-24, 01:32 PM

https://twitter.com/j_smedley/status/294501298701733888

This sort of crap is to easily influenced by large groups of people and influential individuals.

Like say - democracy?

This could be a an extremely useful tool for SOE. Especially since it would be account linked so SOE could correlate opinions to time played, skill, outfit affilation and in game play styles.

Or they could do a half assed job - ask general questions and just look at the majority response.

EDIT: But also the zerging mass has opinions that matter.
If you only had read hard core message boards you would have thought that the majority of players enjoyed super powered air. When what was actually happening was casual players were quitting in disgust.

Akrasjel Lanate

2013-01-24, 01:35 PM

Nothing new, the easest option is to become one of them.

Archonzero

2013-01-24, 01:36 PM

Popularity votes for design implementation. Wow, this games going to get horribly nubified even more. All it's going to take are all the negative nelly's that are already disgruntled with SOE to simply stack in on the worst ideas an send this game into a burning tailspin. I mean it's great that we're having a community debate an discussion for all kinds of game ideas, but I've read a lot of nay sayers towards any sort of expansion of strategic elements, options, additional layers to gameplay beyond what we currently have. An that is what worries me when it comes to popularity contests.

A competitive shooter inside of a larger strategic game needs to have a well thought, involved strategic game design to complement the tactical/competitive shooter element. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the ESport players (like Rival) stopped playing Planetside 2, cause there wasn't much of a larger picture to the game beyond, spawn shoot, conquer die, rinse repeat back an forth. Not to mention a clear lack of any sort of Esport twitch shooter design in the game, aside from maybe the biodomes. Which in all honesty, is too small of a "map" for the scale of the games numbers and has some serious limitations (only 4 access routes).

**Edit** ANY changes they choose from a popularity vote/consensus should go immediately onto a TRIAL test server, so the community can play with these "changes/ideas" before they become stonework on the live servers!

PredatorFour

2013-01-24, 01:40 PM

Like say - democracy?

And how many democracies have voting that can be easily rigged ??? Flawed..

And i'm sorry but i wouldn't trust SoE with this method at all given their past promises/ track records.

Trythios

2013-01-24, 02:04 PM

Any time you ask the playerbase for opinions and feedback, there's going to be the same issues with popularity etc. It's not unique to this method. It just tends to be more passive (thus people don't even notice it), as opposed to active meddling in the process. As a developer, you could just have people post ideas in a basic forum and have people comment on them and go over it to see the general views of the playerbase, but it's still going to be subject to the same problems.

The loudest, most well known and/or most spammy people are always going to drown out the more quiet, less well known people regardless of the quality of their ideas.

At least if people are actively rigging votes (for example), it's going to be noticed.

Thank you.

No matter which way they go, discussion or voting. The issue remains the same, the loudest and/or most popular people will sway the result. It's been seen countless times in other MMO's, which is part the reason less than 20% of a games playerbase actually ever read forums, much less post on them.

Either way it comes down to what the developer chooses to use the system(s) for. If a Dev decides to base their design around popular player discussion, it can also go horribly wrong, simply because most of us are biased due to playstyle or vision.

In my opinion, they can use whatever measuring stick they want to gauge the community, as long as they have an overall vision of where they want to with it.

How will they use this ? Well, we don't really know yet, but we have to assume they will do their best to get it right. If not, then it's all a moot point anyway as I said above.

My apologies if this is hard to read or understand - I'm danish, that's my handicap.

-Trythios

Wahooo

2013-01-24, 02:09 PM

Popularity votes for design implementation. Wow, this games going to get horribly nubified even more. All it's going to take are all the negative nelly's that are already disgruntled with SOE to simply stack in on the worst ideas an send this game into a burning tailspin.

Actually I think most of the negative nelly's who are disgruntled with SOE want the game to improve, and the REASON we are disgruntled is because the lack of depth to the game and lack of a fun shooter.

The nubism comes from all of those who want everything easier. A lot of those people that can't see that the changes they ask for will ruin the game, AND make the more skilled wreck them even harder.

Majority rule is a great concept and works in small groups of people who are representing the larger unwashed masses. Giving every individual voice? Bad idea. I've said it before, SOE needs to listen, but they have to be careful WHO they listen to. Every game company gets flak for not listening to the player base... but most of the playerbase are retards that don't know what is good for them. Those few that have great ideas and actually take the time to think about what effect it will have on the game? I just hope they aren't drowned out.

Rahabib

2013-01-24, 02:19 PM

I am pretty sure this is just going to be another avenue for player to give input rather that enabling a body of people the ability to enact game play changes via petition.

Its just going to be a way for the developers to put a forum in the game and allow people to vote without having to create an account and post a pointless "/signed" on it.

I dont see how its going to be any more detrimental than a forum. However, I think SOE is just asking for more punishment as you know its going to encourage people to post "make x like PS1."

edit: SOE has done this before: http://share.blog.us.playstation.com/ take a look.

ChipMHazard

2013-01-24, 02:37 PM

And here I thought they would decide on their 6 months plan from what needed to be implemented first for the gameplay to improve the most.
Hopefully they will simply use the voting as way to judge what the community wants the most and not what they should implement first.
We'll see just how much of an influence this will end up having.

Rockit

2013-01-24, 02:45 PM

I personally don't like Reddit and never visit there. Looks like some early 80's style LISTSERV format. Next thing you know it will be 4chan as the platform of SOE's choice.

NewSith

2013-01-24, 03:01 PM

Hamma, change your thread name, keep it constructive... Your site is the icon of constructiveness and objectivity, afterall, so it'll be a shame having this source turned into another instance of mass media.

That being said, the community has no clue what it needs. I mean half of the "metagame supporters" don't even have a clear understanding of what "metagame" in computer gaming is... It will only result in half-assed changes aimed for "result" and not the due "progress" part. Such changes tend to create even more problems. Hence such way of doing things is flawed by definition.

Rockit

2013-01-24, 03:02 PM

That being said, the community has no clue what it needs. I mean half of the "metagame supporters don't even have a clear understanding what "metagame" in computer game is... It will only result in half-assed changes aimed for "result" and not the due "progress" part. Such changes tend to create even more problems. Hence such way of doing things is flawed by definition.

Here, here. I am with the Russian on this one. :)

SixShooter

2013-01-24, 03:07 PM

Sirisian

2013-01-24, 03:08 PM

I don't like this at all. Votes are exploitable, popularity contests are not the way to decide the six month plan. Let people discuss, read the feedback and decide how to proceed.

This sort of crap is to easily influenced by large groups of people and influential individuals.
I agree completely.

H
That being said, the community has no clue what it needs. I mean half of the "metagame supporters" don't even have a clear understanding of what "metagame" in computer gaming is... It will only result in half-assed changes aimed for "result" and not the due "progress" part. Such changes tend to create even more problems. Hence such way of doing things is flawed by definition.
Precisely my fear.

That said if they do implement a voting system then I'd hope it would be based on something like a maximum BR on an account. Not sure what number would stop people from rigging votes though.

Hamma

2013-01-24, 03:08 PM

The main issue with this sort of feedback method is this is the Internet. We don't have accountability here and everyone knows how easy it is to create station accounts. :lol:

Edit: I renamed the thread.

NewSith

2013-01-24, 03:14 PM

So basic democracy is not your thing?

Why would what the majority wants be a bad thing? Why should small sections of a group have more influence over larger ones?
The problem is that this is the internet and something like this can be easily hijacked by ass-hats and d-bags. This is why the White House actualy had to respond to a petition to build a Death Star (even though that would have been awesome);).

There is also one extra problem, with democracy in the army (destroying stuff) and/or in building (creating stuff). Democracy results in wrong people coming to power, and destruction in that case may get out of limits, or, for example. wrong person in charge will build a shitty house.

Here's a simplified example.
You have 7 people on a deserted island and all of you have an access to a chopper. Nobody except you knows who can fly a chopper. 1 guy can. So would you blindly select the chopper pilot by vote or actually select a pilot that knows how to fly the chopper?

Ruffdog

2013-01-24, 03:27 PM

Nice principle but this will be a car crash. Vote rigging will be rife.
Unless they can tie a vote to a hardware ID or address or something.

So what ever happened to:

https://twitter.com/j_smedley/status/258804630522327040

https://twitter.com/j_smedley/status/258806748184465408

NewSith

2013-01-24, 03:29 PM

So what ever happened to:

https://twitter.com/j_smedley/status/258804630522327040

https://twitter.com/j_smedley/status/258806748184465408

This will simply never get onto the voting list. Just like Liberators becoming bombers and Galaxies taking the gunship role. See that's another problem with the voting system. It's locking you into choices that you'd neither select, and for a person that DOES want to make a vote that results in him selecting the "lesser of evils" which is even worse.

EDIT: Trust an ol' Russian that voted for Putin during the election.

ShadoViper

2013-01-24, 03:33 PM

https://twitter.com/j_smedley/status/294501298701733888

https://twitter.com/j_smedley/status/294501395539828736

https://twitter.com/j_smedley/status/294501760603672577

I don't like this at all. Votes are exploitable, popularity contests are not the way to decide the six month plan. Let people discuss, read the feedback and decide how to proceed.

This sort of crap is to easily influenced by large groups of people and influential individuals.

The Zerg already decides the outcome of the game IN game.

I'm with you on this Hamma. This seems like it could really backfired, maybe not.

Another alternative off the top of my head, would be a council of plays that we could elect. But once again that could just be another popularity contest and how would That really even work.

On a side note; not to sound arrogant as hell, but I wonder how hard it really must be to communicate and get a general idea of what the community wants? And even then, does it really matter what most want? Half the people don't even understand what it takes to make content or the balance Eco system.

ShadetheDruid

2013-01-24, 03:42 PM

Soothsayer

2013-01-24, 03:47 PM

This is going to be like the White House death star petition.

I get that it was funny and cute and everything. Everybody was able to talk about it for a while, that was great. I get it.

Now a system that was intended to increase citizen participation and engagement with policy planning has had the bar raised for all projects, not just ones that everybody knows are a joke. They had to, because the bureaucracy can't pick and choose which projects are jokes and which ones aren't. To have a gatekeeper would negate the open forum nature of the concept. (As a disclaimer, that is my understanding of the situation based on the media reports that reached me, I don't live in the states.)

When you get asinine or ill informed and poorly planned projects getting the green light because someone was able to mobilize a bunch of mouse clicks, there's a problem.

NewSith

2013-01-24, 03:47 PM

I really don't envy developers these days. Half the time it's "why don't devs listen to the playerbase", the other half of the time it's "why are you listening to these people, they're stupid" (from both "sides").

They can't really win. :p

The difference between voting and, say - a contest (like [MDMI]) is that voting says - here's what we'll give you, no need to know the rest. MDMI, on the other hand, includes "this is what I propose and how I propose it to be implemented".

In other words:
MDMI - good idea, though it's just that reddit doesn't have the proper rep (and I myself consider that deserved)
Voting - bad idea, on any source, even on PSU.

Trythios

2013-01-24, 03:48 PM

I'm with you on this Hamma. This seems like it could really backfired, maybe not.

Another alternative off the top of my head, would be a council of plays that we could elect. But once again that could just be another popularity contest and how would That really even work.

On a side note; not to sound arrogant as hell, but I wonder how hard it really must be to communicate and get a general idea of what the community wants? And even then, does it really matter what most want? Half the people don't even understand what it takes to make content or the balance Eco system.

The council thing is already done, EVE Online has it and has for many years. They sometimes go to the Devs offices to discuss the direction of the game, given it is nearly 100% player driven.

It is hard though, as I stated previously, numbers given by Devs of other MMO's display that less than 20% of the active playerbase ever reads/posts on forum. Generally people avoid them because forums is the easiest and quickest way to become jaded with a game. Given that it is usually dominated by loudmouths.

They have to gauge with something, doesn't matter if it's a voting system or a forum. Result will be the same. What matters is how they decide to USE it for implementation.

-Try

Ruffdog

2013-01-24, 03:54 PM

How about to qualify to vote you must have had a toon that has logged 12 hours in-game or more, to stop infinite bullshit accounts?

Rahabib

2013-01-24, 03:57 PM

fyi: this is how its going to work.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/177m27/our_new_roadmap_redditstyle_system/

Chewy

2013-01-24, 04:01 PM

Here's a simplified example.
You have 7 people on a deserted island and all of you have an access to a chopper. Nobody except you knows who can fly a chopper. 1 guy can. So would you blindly select the chopper pilot by vote or actually select a pilot that knows how to fly the chopper?

That's about it. Democracy can be a great system, IF those that are voting are informed of what they are voting on. If the voters don't know, or care, about what the vote is on then it will ALWAYS end bad.

I say that if this voting is to stay then it needs to be limited to players of the game ONLY. Maybe even go as far as having at least one hour of play time and have the account made before a certain date (like being 18 to vote in the US) as mandatory for a vote. Something as proof that you know what it is you're voting on.

Edit-
Can someone link me a "How To" on reading reddit? I have never understood a forum setup that destroys the timeline. Having a post up voted and a branching discussion form it is fine. But when they chop up a time line and Im reading crap from days ago that have little meaning to what I need today, it confuses the fuck out of me.
Plus Im out of time (and lazy) to find one myself foir the next few hours.

NewSith

2013-01-24, 04:03 PM

fyi: this is how its going to work.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/177m27/our_new_roadmap_redditstyle_system/

Okay, props to Smed, I'm waiting until the 6-month plan release 'till I have my mind completely set on the proposed system.

Rockit

2013-01-24, 04:07 PM

NewSith

2013-01-24, 04:11 PM

LOL here's how I look at it. I have my own 6 month plan in real life and no one votes on that except me. It isn't worth my time anymore to concern myself with this crap. I am pretty sure the train wreck option for this game is locked up.

My change of attitude is dictated by this:

It's all based on what you have in your plan. If you plan to kill somebody in 6 motths, then making it a vote will be better for you first and foremost.

Hence as I said I'm giving this idea one more day.

EDIT:
Basically if the list includes things that greatly affect the gameplay: e.g. Solo MBTs, that I'm for, I remind you, or "Lines Adjoining Territories That Impart Continental Edge" System aka L.A.T.T.I.C.E, which I'm against, than I'm all against the voting. If the list includes changes that are not going to have such an impact then you can be democrats all you like. As long as you first announce the new plan everytime and ask if the voting is necessary.

Javelin

2013-01-24, 04:15 PM

For the folks that don't want to go reddit to see this, here:

I wanted to take the time to explain what this system is and isn't. It's basically a new section in our normal forums that will be called Roadmap. In this section we will set up topics that relate to the things in our roadmap. The purpose is to have active discussion of the entire roadmap. There is a reddit style scoring system that allows people to upvote and downvote things. That's going to give us some rough idea of how people feel about a particular roadmap idea.

Does this mean we're changing it to "the mob rules"? absolutely not. It's just a simple tool for us to be able to gauge sentiment about a particular topic. Remember it's still a forum thread (although with cool nested comments) and we'll still be reading what people are actually saying.

However if we list 5 topics for February and people highly vote 4 of those 5 and everyone hates on one of the ideas, it's fair to say that's going to get our attention.

In addition we're going to be implementing a new suggestion area with this same functionality that will allow users to create new threads. This likely won't go live tomorrow. This new functionality is in QA right now but it's likely to still have some bugs when you all jump in there. So we want to start with just the Roadmap section.

For the haters out there that say mobs dumb down games - I just flat out disagree with you that it's going to happen here. We have a vision for this game. You're going to see that tomorrow. Will it be one you like? I hope so. Will you agree with the order we're doing things? maybe.. maybe not. Probably not in some cases. Will be move things to more closely mirror the order you want things done? Sometimes yes.. sometimes it's not possible because of development time.

This is just another way for you to have your say in the future of Planetside 2. We want this to be a game we all share the vision for.

Thanks

Smed

Meatball Mobeus

2013-01-24, 04:15 PM

Totally with Hamma on this one. Just because there are a lot of people going for it doesn't mean its a well thought out plan.

AThreatToYou

2013-01-24, 04:26 PM

Democracy doesn't work anymore. People are too stupid.

Ruffdog

2013-01-24, 04:28 PM

Totally with Hamma on this one. Just because there are a lot of people going for it doesn't mean its a well thought out plan.

QFT

So many crashed house parties on Facebook

Rat

2013-01-24, 04:44 PM

Don't use Reddit that much myself. How easy is it to create an account? Couldn't one just create multiple accounts to up the vote for an idea? This sound exploitable.

I dont think anyone is going to create 2487 accounts to try to influence a vote.

maradine

2013-01-24, 04:52 PM

Oh? (http://gizmodo.com/5968230/how-4chan-made-kim-jong-un-time-readers-man-of-the-year)

Rockit

2013-01-24, 04:59 PM

For the folks that don't want to go reddit to see this, here:

If you clowns on Reddit want to gain some notoriety beyond 4chan then please go do that. No one appreciates your depreciated format. It's awful. Period.

Figment

2013-01-24, 05:00 PM

I don't like this at all. Votes are exploitable, popularity contests are not the way to decide the six month plan. Let people discuss, read the feedback and decide how to proceed.

This sort of crap is to easily influenced by large groups of people and influential individuals.

The Zerg already decides the outcome of the game IN game.

I've looked at what get votes on reddit and what doesn't.

Mankind proved what it is to me once more. :doh: The things that get hundreds of votes are not the idea threads, but random idiocy videos.

I'd prefer an enquiry poll per topic: Excellent (10 - 1) Horrible.

Followed by a few open questions:
"If you think it's the right direction, but not perfect, what do you think needs tweaking and why?"
"If you think it's the wrong direction, do you know of any good alternatives? If so, which and where can we find discussion on it?"

Roy Awesome

2013-01-24, 05:00 PM

I said this on smedley's post, but:

From moderation experience, Reddit's system doesn't give you any winner or loser when it comes to idea, but it's a damn good straw-poll to check to see the way the wind is blowing.

Voting systems on the internet are easily manipulated and upvotes/downvotes aren't a good way make any final decisions (although we have some cool tools at our disposal).

I like the way SOE is approaching this. Get the temperature with certain ideas and see how it goes. They kinda did this back in September with higby's Top Issues in Beta post . Building something that is very specific to Planetside 2 on the SOE forums is probably the best way forward with this.

Rockit

2013-01-24, 05:01 PM

If you clowns on Reddit want to gain some notoriety beyond 4chan then please go do that. No one appreciates your depreciated format. It's awful. Period.

Allow me to reiterate.

Javelin

2013-01-24, 05:03 PM

If you clowns on Reddit want to gain some notoriety beyond 4chan then please go do that. No one appreciates your depreciated format. It's awful. Period.

I posted it here for the LAZY that cant click a link for 1 post.

Rockit

2013-01-24, 05:04 PM

Reddit is awful. Just bad and no one cares to visit it. Hey guys the 80's are missing you.

Javelin

2013-01-24, 05:06 PM

Reddit is awful. Just bad and no one cares to visit it. Hey guys the 80's are missing you.

Not disagreeing, just putting the information here for everyone to see.

Rockit

2013-01-24, 05:07 PM

Not disagreeing, just putting the information here for everyone to see.

Well then can you see why such a "vote" might be biased? The only people who give a shit about that format are Reddit users?

Wahooo

2013-01-24, 05:10 PM

Reddit is awful. Just bad and no one cares to visit it. Hey guys the 80's are missing you.

Someone posted once and got nothing but down votes... :cry:

Javelin

2013-01-24, 05:11 PM

Well then can you see why such a "vote" might be biased? The only people who give a shit about that format are Reddit users?

Dude, I only posted Smedleys remarks from there to here so everyone can see it.

I'm not debating the merits of reddit.

Rockit

2013-01-24, 05:13 PM

Someone posted once and got nothing but down votes... :cry:

Nah I posted none. Dont give a shit about Reddit. Climb another hill. This is a terrible antiquated format. But I wouldn't expect anything less from a terrible antiquated company like SOE. Just horrible. Listserv died a while ago but Reddit didnt get the memo. 4chan I can expect but SOE get's behind this Reddit effort. LMFAO.

Crator

2013-01-24, 05:31 PM

I dont think anyone is going to create 2487 accounts to try to influence a vote.

You'd be amazed at what some fanatics will do. And it doesn't require a single person creating that many accounts, most likely. Get your large/semi large outfit to create several accounts and they win.

Figment

2013-01-24, 05:34 PM

The issue with votes is that it's yes or no.

Typically it's a "Yes, but", "No, but" or "maybe, if". You can't vote on the specifics of the conditions of the plan or in relation to other things. Mere votes that create a random jumble of plans that mix badly is simply a poor vision.

What if one thing is really popular but completely undos other changes or is completely counter-productive to other changes or in relation with other changes?

I mean, look at my Bio Lab flow idea. It's a package design. Change only one element of changes in it and I can't guarantee it works because the package has been changed. Hell, it could even become worse if the wrong combination of elements is executed and really good ideas might end up backfiring and getting hated just because the oversight was made to change the appropriate linked features with it.

Eduard Khil

2013-01-24, 05:38 PM

Hah, so they want popularity contests to define things?

I can't wait to see my bots define the outcomes.

NapalmEnima

2013-01-24, 05:40 PM

Based on smedley's reddit post, it sounds like they already have a pretty good idea of what the features will be, but are letting the players pick which order some of them come in.

And once they start building those features, I suspect it'll be similar to beta in that SOE will listen to it's players and take their opinions into account when making changes... not feverishly obeying the loudest voices.

On several occasions, Higby has posted/tweeted something to the effect of:

"Scissors are OP, rock seems balanced"
-- Paper

Definitely not "design by mob", and not all that much "schedule by mob".

I'm guessing it'll be something like:

6 Month Plan:

Thing that will definitely be included
Another thing that will definitely be included.
Optional thing 1
Optional thing 2
Optional thing 3
Optional thing 4
Optional thing 5

"We only have time for 3 of the 5 Optional Things. Which ones would you like to see first?"

And whatever doesn't make it in this time will be up for inclusion in the next 6 month plan.

Not worried.

Roy Awesome

2013-01-24, 05:49 PM

Allow me to reiterate.

Reddit is awful. Just bad and no one cares to visit it. Hey guys the 80's are missing you.

Well then can you see why such a "vote" might be biased? The only people who give a shit about that format are Reddit users?

Nah I posted none. Dont give a shit about Reddit. Climb another hill. This is a terrible antiquated format. But I wouldn't expect anything less from a terrible antiquated company like SOE. Just horrible. Listserv died a while ago but Reddit didnt get the memo. 4chan I can expect but SOE get's behind this Reddit effort. LMFAO.

What kind of giant stick do you have shoved up your ass?

Seriously, just because you don't like it doesn't mean nobody does. The Upvote/Downvote system is very very effective for gauging public interest. It's something that Valve uses for Steam Workshop to put items into Dota 2 and TF2, Youtube uses it to rank videos, Facebook uses for statuses... The list goes on and on.

It's an effective metric for gauging public interest in a topic, one I would argue is better than traditional 'post count' forum method. A well liked idea, traditionally, would only gather a handful of posts on the subject (a majority would agree and not say anything), and only controversial or unliked ideas get debated to death.

If you bothered to read the post that smedley posted on /r/planetside, you can see they are simply going for an 'upvote/downvote' system for getting feedback from the userbase. They aren't throwing out their forums and creating a subreddit. This system is custom tailored to the needs of SOE and not something they are using for community building...purely for feedback.

Rockit

2013-01-24, 05:55 PM

Reddit format sucks balls.

Sirisian

2013-01-24, 06:05 PM

Reddit format sucks balls.
What would you prefer? When most people say reddit they're referring to up and down voting of comments and threads which forms a basis for self moderation. You seem to prefer the PSU style discussion with no rating system and just a general discussion? I assume not given how poorly you debate with your recent posts. I actually prefer long thought out posts myself with no rating, but like you showed in your previous posts many gamers cannot debate and end up sliding into name calling and childish behavior.

You're making a strong point for a voting system whether you realize it or not.

Roy Awesome

2013-01-24, 06:07 PM

What would you prefer? When most people say reddit they're referring to up and down voting of comments and threads which forms a basis for self moderation. You seem to prefer the PSU style discussion with no rating system and just a general discussion? I assume not given how poorly you debate with your recent posts. I actually prefer long thought out posts myself with no rating, but like you showed in your previous posts many gamers cannot debate and end up sliding into name calling and childish behavior.

You're making a strong point for a voting system whether you realize it or not.

I think he is just whiny because whenever he posts shit like that to reddit, it gets downvoted because it's baseless, offtopic, and doesn't contribute to the discussion at hand. It's funny, because I think the reddit community can be retarded sometimes, so it's always a joy to see even the lowest common denominator decide that posts like that don't contribute to the discussion.

Roy Awesome

2013-01-24, 06:19 PM

Also, on another note, I do enjoy Reddit's tree-based comment system. It lets you have multiple relevent discussion on a single topic without one person taking the entire thread to make their point. I hope SOE takes this bit from reddit as well, because having multiple inline discussions is very confusing and hard to follow who is talking to who.

Destroyeron

2013-01-24, 06:34 PM

If they don't even fucking know where they want to be in 6 months the small glimmer of hope I had for this game is dead.

Rockit

2013-01-24, 06:47 PM

I think he is just whiny because whenever he posts shit like that to reddit, it gets downvoted because it's baseless, offtopic, and doesn't contribute to the discussion at hand. It's funny, because I think the reddit community can be retarded sometimes, so it's always a joy to see even the lowest common denominator decide that posts like that don't contribute to the discussion.

I would have also shot myself if that is the best interface I could come up with.

maradine

2013-01-24, 06:51 PM

Reddit format sucks balls.

Reddit also would have relegated you to oblivion by now, which, on the balance, I think comes out as a point for Reddit.

I think I've changed my mind - maybe this is for the better after all.

Stanis

2013-01-24, 06:53 PM

You can please some of the people, some of the time.

Voting is a bad idea.
For any idea that may be good or bad but never the less taken on board - many won't be.

Either we get pacified as the veteran PS1 community by giving us a game that is in spirit PS2 rather than name.

Or they get to cherry picked ideas that fit the planned evolution and marketing/finance limitations.

In many threads through beta players would tear each other apart insisting that when we say how bad or wrong something is we need to offer constructive criticism.
I disagree.
I'm not a professional game designer.
The SOE team has many skilled professionals doing art and assets.
But actual game designers with experience on an MMO FPS with a scale of thousands? We know there hasn't been a game like this.

The great minds should take our feedback and concerns, take their existant vision and the vast wealth of data they both have and can collect - and go professionally game design.

I just hope we get the best designed game. Not the best for the market. Or the best financial return.
I'd really like to see my friends that have played PS1 on and off for ten years playing PS2. Right now - they're waiting on a shattered dream that began about 2 years when we all got back together after the development of ps2 was announced.

You want to put that to a vote?

DirtyBird

2013-01-24, 07:18 PM

Javelin

2013-01-24, 07:22 PM

Reddit also would have relegated you to oblivion by now, which, on the balance, I think comes out as a point for Reddit.

I think I've changed my mind - maybe this is for the better after all.

This

Crator

2013-01-24, 07:24 PM

BTW I couldnt find Smeds thread on the "official" forums about this which is disappointing.
He hasnt posted there for about 2months.

Would be cool if SOE could put upvote/downvote functionality into their own forums. But with better readability interface then Reddit. I have attempted to read a few things on Reddit before but it is hard...

Helwyr

2013-01-24, 07:44 PM

I agree with your concern.

Actual discussion, which leads to compromise, consideration, and often times better ways to accomplish the same goals, are what drive projects toward success.

Voting: Bad.

SOE reading and taking part in discussions: Good.

Pretty simple.

As long as the threads are heavily moderated and actually frequented by the appropriate developers, then the end result should be in line with what the community expects from the game.[...]

I agree with this. Communication is a very good thing, especially were posters are required to make reasoned arguments to support their ideas, but raw voting on these things isn't necessarily going to lead to a good place.

Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried. - Winston Churchill

But just because a majority wants something does not mean it's bad but it does not mean it's good either. [...]

As Sunrock alluded to pure democracy of majority rule can lead to some pretty terrible things. It isn't even what we have in Western Countries, the US for instance has its Constitution and Bill of Rights. You can't simply get a majority vote and reinstate Slavery.

This leads to what's most important in all this, SOE need their equivalent of the Constitution and Bill or Rights and in the context of a game like this it's core design philosophy and the protection of various playstyles. Essentially SOE should know and communicate what their game is about and the various ways they want people to be able to play it. Within that framework players can suggest (and if we must, vote) for different ideas that fit within that framework to build upon it. But a pure popularity contest on a medium like Reddit where the future of Planetside is up for grabs would be pretty terrible.

Mordelicius

2013-01-24, 09:09 PM

"Will you agree with the order we're doing things? maybe.. maybe not" - Smedley

PLEASE, no implementation of E-Sports this early. Please! :eek: I'm hoping that's not what it meant, because that's how I'm reading it. :D

Anyway, most people will remember Reddit used to have an old, bigger rival named Digg. Digg dominated Reddit until they implemented the "Friends" system. All it really did was enable a swarm of voting cliques or voting blocks gaming and rigging the the voting system.

Soon enough the frontpage was flooded with more and more inane, uninteresting and irrelevant posts due to these "friends" posses circle-jerk voting each other. Eventually, Digg started dying and Reddit became more prominent due massive exodus of users.

I hope they implement a system that prevent such pitfalls.

- They should have internal filters that root out newly created accounts when they are reading the data. Meaning, what would the data read without the influence of fresh accounts?
- When they let a community vote on an Official topic, they should broadcast it as far and wide as possible to get as much sample audience. It means, Twitter, Reddit, Facebook, Launcher, PSU, E-mail and even in-game Announcements!

Other than than, i'm glad they are reaching out to the community :groovy:
-

Vashyo

2013-01-24, 09:16 PM

I certainly hope ideas that are straight out of CoD or other non-planetside game aren't on the top all the time. The game used to be about strategy and tactics, now it's about pwning n00bs or whatever the coolkids say today.

I've been reading comments on reddit and planetside official forums. It's mostly new players asking for stuff that doesn't improve the overall game in anyway. They just want to see some small meaningless little features implemented.

"xXx_MLG360nOscOpeAKIMBo_xXx = I WUNT DUALWIELD!!!!!111111oneoneoneone or I WUNT E-SP0RTS I R MLG winrar!"

games today just streamline and over-simplify to meet with the demands of the fickle audience...

Assist

2013-01-24, 09:40 PM

games today just streamline and over-simplify to meet with the demands of the fickle audience...

Agreed. Games are made to target masses rather than the niche. The problem is the masses don't stay and then they're left with the niche group who are upset the game was made for the masses. This cycle has already occurred for the PS1 vets and now it seems SoE is intent on continuing down this spiral towards a game that in the end no one wants to play.
/shrug

Brusi

2013-01-24, 10:32 PM

My memory is getting semi-shit in my old age...

Isn't this more-or-less how we ended up with giant unstoppable robot tanks in the original Planetside?

PoisonTaco

2013-01-24, 11:16 PM

My memory is getting semi-shit in my old age...

Isn't this more-or-less how we ended up with giant unstoppable robot tanks in the original Planetside?

It's also how we got the Holocrons and the Village in SWG.

Helwyr

2013-01-24, 11:28 PM

It's also how we got the Holocrons and the Village in SWG.

I just have to post to say Holocrons was the lamest gameplay conceived of in any MMO I have ever played. I hope there's no SOE developers that had a hand in that working on PS2.

Archonzero

2013-01-24, 11:35 PM

Actually I think most of the negative nelly's who are disgruntled with SOE want the game to improve, and the REASON we are disgruntled is because the lack of depth to the game and lack of a fun shooter.

The nubism comes from all of those who want everything easier. A lot of those people that can't see that the changes they ask for will ruin the game, AND make the more skilled wreck them even harder.

Majority rule is a great concept and works in small groups of people who are representing the larger unwashed masses. Giving every individual voice? Bad idea. I've said it before, SOE needs to listen, but they have to be careful WHO they listen to. Every game company gets flak for not listening to the player base... but most of the playerbase are retards that don't know what is good for them. Those few that have great ideas and actually take the time to think about what effect it will have on the game? I just hope they aren't drowned out.

There's difference to those who are disgruntled that are putting forth constructive ideas to improve the game. Those aren't negative nelly's, those are critics.

The percentage I'm concerned with are the ones that troll the forums only to spit on every idea to expand the games development, strategic depth/end game/fun. Take for example the steams community forum, for every positive thread/post promoting the game, there's about 30-40 posts that continually flame/troll any threads regarding the game, as thought it's their job to see it die a horrid death. They just don't give 2 poops if the game does improve, they want SOE to burn in writhing agony an this game is something they can attack vehemently.

Sirisian

2013-01-25, 12:26 AM

I certainly hope ideas that are straight out of CoD or other non-planetside game aren't on the top all the time.[...]

I've been reading comments on reddit and planetside official forums. It's mostly new players asking for stuff that doesn't improve the overall game in anyway. They just want to see some small meaningless little features implemented.

"xXx_MLG360nOscOpeAKIMBo_xXx = I WUNT DUALWIELD!!!!!111111oneoneoneone or I WUNT E-SP0RTS I R MLG winrar!"
I think you might be the one jumping to conclusions a bit. I'm big into having discussions about things. We have multiple dual wielding threads on PSU for instance that cover tons of ideas relating to using both of a player's hands including pistol + med applicator combos among other things. The same for e-sports which is brought up with hundreds of different definitions of how it would be implemented. And that's what it comes down to, implementation.

You're not the only one to jump to conclusions. Brusi just did the same thing when a mech chasis is brought up. I don't think it's useful when a topic is brought up to instantly hone into the worst implementation and discuss that. It would be my hope that when players bring up what they don't want they do it by constructively to see if there is any up-side to having it or if any implementation would destroy the game.

This is another reason I'm weary of a voting system. People rarely read large amounts of text and will vote based on the title.

Roy Awesome

2013-01-25, 01:16 AM

This isn't about people suggesting ideas, more of us voting and throwing our weight into what they want to do, so that they can prioritize based on what people want and drop things that are wildly unpopular.

EDIT: Secondly, it seems very clear that they just want an opinion. If one of the many things they are going to list off has like a 90% yes vote...I think they are going to focus on doing that first. They don't have to (perhaps one of the lesser votes is technically easier to add), but it's something they can say '90% of our users want this, so lets throw resources at it and get it done before the thing with 70%'.

I'm pretty damn sure SOE is smart enough to realize shackling themselves completely to the results of the vote is a bad idea. They will have to comment and explain how they are using the results of the vote in their actual 6 month plan, but I don't think they will throw out ideas completely unless it does reallly badly (like the AI plans in Smed's 2 year vision) or make a decision purely because of how it performs in the vote.

typhaon

2013-01-25, 01:39 AM

It's a means of getting feedback... engaging a popular online community. SOE is obviously trying different things and this is one of them.

If "Pandas" gets the highest score - I doubt SOE is going to put them in the game... it's just another tool, among many.

NewSith

2013-01-25, 04:50 AM

PLEASE, no implementation of E-Sports this early. Please! :eek: I'm hoping that's not what it meant, because that's how I'm reading it. :D

The Ultimate Empire Showdown is an e-sport. Modeled partially after what's in my signature. Nevertheless, today is the day and we will all be waiting for what we shall see in the 6 month plan.

Ohaunlaim

2013-01-25, 04:55 AM

If they ask the players to vote on what is next and provide a list of things they already plan to be in game, then I see no problem with this.

If they ask the players to provide ideas for content and then ask us to vote on said propositions then the first patch will have phallus guns. The second, mammary grenades.

EVILoHOMER

2013-01-25, 06:04 AM

Why do they keep using Twitter, it is shit.

140 characters or whatever......... like why place that stupid restriction?

OnyxD

2013-01-25, 06:08 AM

The reddit voting system of discussion is preferable to a basic threaded forum system ( like this one ) due to standard forum threads getting easily derailed by trolls. Forums like this are too prone to being swayed and led by a small minority of forceful ego's. They get shit up too easily by the noisily opinionated.

SOE have stated they are not going to be bound by the new system, just guided. As long as they keep this firmly in mind I believe it's a good idea.

Bloodlet

2013-01-25, 10:27 AM

I fail to see the problem.

Crator

2013-01-25, 10:33 AM

Why couldn't they just provide this voting system on the game launcher? If what they are going to propose to the players are ideas the DEVs have come up with and it's a YES or NO answer for the players, why not just ask the question outside of a discussion forum?

NewSith

2013-01-25, 10:34 AM

Crator

2013-01-25, 10:41 AM

Check pages 2 and 3, there's a lot of reasons why.

I've read every post in this thread. I even have several posts on page 2. What are you getting at? Are you saying that the voting system won't work? I agree unless there's some sort of special way they are handling it. But they are doing it anyways. I was just saying why not just do it via the launcher instead of an external website...

NewSith

2013-01-25, 10:45 AM

I've read every post in this thread. I even have several posts on page 2. What are you getting at? Are you saying that the voting system won't work? I agree unless there's some sort of special way they are handling it. But they are doing it anyways. I was just saying why not just do it via the launcher instead of an external website...

Having ability to respond is better since, the "blind voting" way is way more vulnerable to cheating.

If the game wasn't free to play - then sure, but it is, and you can just spam accaounts if you want. The cheating is tracable, definitely, but it will just unfocus devs from important stuff.