The Impending Magrider Nerf.

[Assist]

@AngryKelvin manuverability, which is the most important stat. VS vehicles are consistently outperforming NC&TR because of their agility.

Anyone else feel this is just another example of people who do not play the game enough? There's more Liberators in the air then there are MBT's on the ground and they want to nerf the Magrider? I'd love to see ratios, since the HE nerf, of kills to MBT spawn for each faction. You want to nerf something then fix the NC MAX, but my guess is that won't happen since Higby plays NC.

You want to know why it's outperforming Higby? It's because it's the only unique vehicle in the entire game. Go ahead and nerf it's agility, in the meantime give it a gun turret that's half as good as the Vanguard or Prowler. The Magrider has agility because you gave it a turret that doesn't shoot half as vertical as the Prowler or Vanguard and it cannot move horizontal at all. Give it two shots like the Prowler or an invulnerability shield like the Vanguard. If you nerf the agility of the Magrider it'll be completely useless. It's already the worst tank 1 on 1 with any weapon setup. You guys are big on statistics and data comparison, please show us the numbers you're looking at to justify the Magrider nerf.

Fix the Vanguard acceleration, don't change a vehicle that is overused because it's unique. The Prowler is more than fine as it is, it can run circles around a Magrider faster than the Magrider can spin to keep hitting it.

[SeraphC]

Keep your hands off my MAX! Ask em to buff yours instead, if it even needs buffing. 90% of the whole MAX story is people having an inferiority complex about theirs.

About the Magrider: I really couldn't care less about the strafing. It's their thing. NC gets a shield, TR get siege mode. I've never met a Magrider and thought: "Oh noes, it can strafe, I'm doomed."
The lack of drop on the other hand, that's something that does piss me off. It's not even logical, why would a ball of plasma not be affected by gravity. If they want their nerf that's where they should start looking.

If it were up to me I'd give all Vanu weapons drop.

[maradine]

Which weapon are we talking about? The main gun drops at the same rate as all the other MBTs.

[Neutral Calypso]

What is that I smell? *sniff*

It smells like... vanu tears.

*sniff*

Delicious~

[ChipMHazard]

The Magrider is the best MBT in most situations, imo. The Magmower doesn't have a turret, it has a fixed forward mounted cannon. I wouldn't mind giving it a turret, with the required balancing that would require like less maneuverability and/or being more fragile.
Why would you want to have it fire two rounds in order to deal the same damage as one normal round, which would also require it to have two cannons? You are aware that the Prowler is weaker because of what comes with having two cannons in PS2? You also want it to have the Vanguard's shield along with it's boost?
How is the Magmower the worst tank in an 1 on 1? It's argueably the best as it also has the best secondary weapon, unless they've changed it since last I played; the Saron. Along with the best agility. The fact that its cannon does less damage per hit is alleviated by its ability to dodge incoming fire.

The Vanguard is basicly fine how it is. The Prowler most certainly isn't and it won't be running around a Magmower faster than said Magmower can turn to fire on it. The Prowler's speed advantage is miniscule.

I would rather have the devs give the speed boost to the Prowler, the shield to the Magrider (along with a durability nerf) and the anchor mode (ideally something entirely different) to the Vanguard. You are right about having to balance air along with the MBTs, making MBTs easier to destroy by other MBTs are going to make them even easier to take out with rocket pods, which should also be changed imo.

[Chewy]

Im not one that can debate over mags as I don't have much time with them. Will say that they are a BITCH to hit if they see you, at any range. Any other tank has only 2 ways they can move and are easy to adjust for. Working as intended? Yeah. Overpowered? Maybe, it's not for me to say. Though Id love to see them be a lot looser in controls. Like being on wet buttered ice, hard to get moving and hard to stop as well as not being able to stay on a slope without input to counter gravity.

In truth the main reason Im posting is to ask why the NC MAX hate? They have shotguns that are CRAP at any range outside of 10m. I run with dual Matlocks (Matchlocks? Can't remember, the ones that are suppose to have the best range) and still have to use an entire mag to kill someone from across a room. If Im not covering a door or inside a compound I have to run from fights or get shredded from the constant reloading needed. TR have the better MAXes if you ask me, they have more range and the ammo to take on a small group. VS MAXes, kinda meh. Never see one of them do great so they might need a bit of a buff. Though they are Zoidbergs, that may be a reason why.

[ChipMHazard]

Off-topic: The problem with Scattermaxes, as I see it, is that they are only good at close range they are however also too good at close range. This becomes a problem in areas like the Bio Lab where it outperforms other MAX's. It's a problem with base design forcing players into very tight quarters in order to cap a point.
They should have given it different chokes to better balance it for different ranges, or just gone with an HMG design instead of going with the shotgun. Shotguns are a bitch to balance properly when only one faction has them, when it comes to MAX's.

[LoliLoveFart]

Lets not scream the sky is falling just yet.
That tweet is in regard to someone asking about ESFs.
Mag was nerfed in beta.
Chances are there will be a balance pass with tanks. My money is on the prowler getting some love.

But when the tears reach critical mass you can always rely on the nerf stick coming out to play.

[ringring]

Magrider is the best tank. That's 2 games running for the VS.

[Saintlycow]

Less nerfs, more buffs

[ChipMHazard]

Aye I would always prefer it if they just buff what needs improving instead of nerfing what is already great.
We do know that the Prowler is going to be getting a buff of some sort.

[LoliLoveFart]

Magrider is the best tank. That's 2 games running for the VS.

Of course it is. It is the most flexible tank.
TR had/have some of the best infantry weapons.
NC have well, shotguns.

If you take away the magriders mobility you effectively take away the only strong point of the magrider.

Buff the other tanks. Everyone agrees the prowler needs some love. Well those who can stop frothing at the mouth long enough to stop screaming for nerfs to everything that kills them that is. :lol:

[Chewy]

Off-topic: The problem with Scattermaxes, as I see it, is that they are only good at close range they are however also too good at close range. This becomes a problem in areas like the Bio Lab where it outperforms other MAX's. It's a problem with base design forcing players into very tight quarters in order to cap a point.
They should have given it different chokes to better balance it for different ranges, or just gone with an HMG design instead of going with the shotgun. Shotguns are a bitch to balance properly when only one faction has them, when it comes to MAX's.

Kinda agree. Always said that shotguns aren't my thing for them having limited ammo and range. Id trade them for a HMG the moment another SC sale comes or if they are cheap on certs. Far to often I find myself needing to fight a ranged battle when using shotguns and get killed or run out of ammo. Had a shotgun on my NC engie for a long time now and he's a beast indoors, but SHIT outside. Even with slugs a shotgun is crap at range. Getting the weapon with the under-slung smoke ASAP once my certs get there.

Slugs (for the Mauler) take 3 shots to kill. They have an insane drop to them and only have tracers for ever other shot, plus the COF is horrid if you're not ducked and sitting still. Not even going to bring the recoil into this. The best I can do with slugs is from tower landing pads to the tower tops. Any more and no being able to see half of the shots makes me sniper bait with the time needed to line up, fire and make the 3 shots needed.

No game in my opinion does shotguns right. I see a shotgun as a shock weapon. Crap for armor (shields and MAXes unless it's slugs) but flesh stands no chance. Put them on their asses up to 45m away depending on the weapon. It's like all games use Birdshot instead of Buckshot.

[igster]

I actually fear the prowler more than the vanguard to be honest. The vulcan is a horrible gun to face. There are some terrible disposable prowler and ligtning gunners out there who dont realise not to keep their rear end hidden. But I have noticed that the prowler drivers are definitely on the ascendancy now - starting to come up against some good tank teams now.

I really do think that the factor that gives the magrider it's edge is the fact that we keep our rear hidden by default. So even the bad drivers tend to face forwards because they want to shoot that way. This isn't the case for the vanguard and the prowler. It actually gives the Magrider a big natural tendancy to not show your weakness.

[ChipMHazard]

No game in my opinion does shotguns right. I see a shotgun as a shock weapon. Crap for armor (shields and MAXes unless it's slugs) but flesh stands no chance. Put them on their asses up to 45m away depending on the weapon. It's like all games use Birdshot instead of Buckshot.

I completely agree.:D

igster: Aye the Vulcan is just silly good, from what I've seen, when you get close enough. That is of course the problem... I also have the feeling that it will be getting "balanced" at some point, heh.

[Aveox]

I think that even if they nerf the Magrider it won't change much. As a regular Mag driver I can only describe the Vanguard and Prowler's problems as "1/2". Most Vanguards and Prowlers I meet don't have a second gunner. And if they do then 9 times out of 10 it's with a stock machine gun, or no shield, no armor etc.

Now, if I would be 1/2 in my Mag I would be very careful when engaging a 1/2 Vanguard or Prowler. Knowing my tank, I know that shot for shot it's weaker in a 1 vs 1 then any of the other two. So I'm ALWAYS 2/2, with a Saron, front armor to take that extra hit, rival chassis to upgrade my strafe speed and Magburner to escape. Ofcourse my gunner and I will rip a stock or barely upgraded Vanguard or Prowler to shreds, because that is exactly what we outfitted it for.
The rare occasions that we do meet a fully upgraded 2/2 Vanguard or Prowler with proper secondary gun we have to use every trick we can in order to survive. Those are the best duels, and hugely rewarding if we win. But since barely anyone bothers to upgrade it's a shooting gallery for us.

Another thing I notice is that both Vanguard and Prowler drivers just tend to park and start lobbing shells at long distance. What can I say? They engage us at the range we are most comfortable with. So we let them have it. And since they usually don't move at all it's again, a shooting gallery for us.
The better tank drivers will try to close the gap to ensure more hits and force the Mag to go on the defensive, or they rotate their tank bodies sideways (presenting their shielded sides) so they too can strafe dodge my shots at range with moving backwards and forwards. But most of them will just park and spam and expect somehow to win against a highly mobile opponent with a rail gun that is build from the ground up to kill other tanks.

So to conclude: From what I see on the battlefield on Miller, Mags are mostly winning fights because they play to their strengths against poorly equipped opponents. But let them nerf us, and we'll try even harder to win each fight! :D

[ShadetheDruid]

Closing the gap on Magriders to ensure more hits is a terrible strategy, that's why no one does it. It's just free hits for the Magriders, since all the while your aim is going to be thrown off by the movement of the tank. That's why Vanguards and Prowlers (and Lightnings, for that matter) sit still to fire, there's no other way to do it.

Not that there's not a lot of bad tank drivers out there, but that's not why.

[maradine]

Give Vanguards and Prowlers stabilized main turrets (like any AFV built in the last 50 years, frankly) and call it a day.

[Aveox]

Closing the gap on Magriders to ensure more hits is a terrible strategy, that's why no one does it. It's just free hits for the Magriders, since all the while your aim is going to be thrown off by the movement of the tank. That's why Vanguards and Prowlers (and Lightnings, for that matter) sit still to fire, there's no other way to do it.

Not that there's not a lot of bad tank drivers out there, but that's not why.

Maybe that is the difference then: When I drive my Lightning I never stop. Ever. I'm always moving unless I'm dead or reloading. And while the view does bounce around a lot, it hasn't stopped me from landing shots.

Magriders don't like up close and personal confrontations. I sure don't. So when you force me to move (and I do mean move, not simple strafing to dodge shells) that saron will rattle around just as much as your main gun and is next to useless. Stay at range, and I will stabilize my tank to allow my gunner the best shot possible. Any hits with the main gun are a bonus. In situations like that the Mag behaves exactly as the PS1 version actually.

But whatever floats your boat I guess. :D

[typhaon]

Prowler: Do we know the damage value of a single shot and how that compares to the damage from a single shot from a Vanguard/Magrider?

The double-shot is a feature. While it might be harder to hit with both shots... it's also easier to hit with 1 shot. It might not be what you like - but I certainly don't see it as an obvious negative.

[Cronoc]

Was the Magrider considered overpowered in Planetside 1? I don't recall it from my time in PS1... and it had the same maneuverability then. Has the switch to the pilot-gunner paradigm ruined that so much, or were the other faction's tanks better in some way than in PS2?

[Dkamanus]

The Biggest problem of the Magrider is the accessability he has to places no other tanks has. Hell, seeing a Magrider climb mountainside and then see NC/TR equivalents try does give a HUGE advantage to VS. Either brick the VS more, so he can't go to certain mountain ranges, or make the other two do the same thing. The magriders agility in the mountains will still be there.

The problem is when you can't go after one tank because HE can go to a place you can't in anyway go. Even with 12.5% less damage, positioning in tank combat is everything, so...

[Chewy]

Was the Magrider considered overpowered in Planetside 1? I don't recall it from my time in PS1... and it had the same maneuverability then. Has the switch to the pilot-gunner paradigm ruined that so much, or were the other faction's tanks better in some way than in PS2?

-Not a vet so don't quote me to much-

From my understanding of PS, you couldn't get any vehicle (maybe a flash) without first putting an amount of your limited points into it. If you didn't spec into vehicles the only access you had to them was catching a ride and being a gunner. That and the forced need for a gunner (Id love to see this) alone put a hard cap on the number of tanks on the field. Each one also had to be taken care of because of them having around 3-4 times the cost of what we got now in PS2 (assuming).

There was also a lot of faction styled weapons that could be use to easily take out an oblivious tank. NC had a fly by wire rocket, VS had lasers, and "I think" TR had a swarm missile. There wasn't a way to dodge those things with hardware limits back then with the 2003 net coding. Floating or on tracks, you needed to be good to use and keep a vehicle. So what made PS1 tanks balanced isn't going to work in PS2 without a hard limit to the shear number of tanks people can got for, might as well be, free at near any base.

Plus PS had 10 years now to develop as a MMO. I was told it was FAR worse than what PS2 is when it first came out. 10 years of work really does wonders for balance.


I for one think that the power of tanks are great as is. TRs 2 shots make them a threat to anyone no matter what ammo they have. NCs can punch a boulder at cost of ammo and speed. VS never have to expose their backs and can be on the move 100% of the time. Each has its strength and play to the faction roles.

The only thing Id like to see happen is how Mags control. For a heavy tank that has zero contact with the ground and thus no traction and/or friction. How the hell can it move so well? That's the Mags real power right there. Nothing else can get to places it can and that front gun is by far a plus in a few ways. First is not having to show your back to any threat in a fight, and another is being able to move at all angles at will.

I was a magnetic nut job growing up. Must have had piles of magnets all over my room and played with them for hours. The one thing I can tell you about magnets and how their forces work is that there is NO controlling it without a special base or gluing one in place. Even then it takes some effort to get them to do what you want. I still have 2 stuck together that Im unable to split apart.

[Reaver]

I think if they want to get serious about fixing the balance between vs and nc/tr tanks they should start by making the side armor for nc/tr tanks the same as their front. This allows the tracked tanks to at least somewhat match the magrider in manuverability while keeping the vanu tank distinct and unique. The idea I think should be to bring the TR and NC up to the vanu's level. If this is not enough then add a proper suspension to the vanguard and prowler making it easier to aim.

[Mordelicius]

Anyone else feel this is just another example of people who do not play the game enough? There's more Liberators in the air then there are MBT's on the ground and they want to nerf the Magrider? I'd love to see ratios, since the HE nerf, of kills to MBT spawn for each faction. You want to nerf something then fix the NC MAX, but my guess is that won't happen since Higby plays NC.

You want to know why it's outperforming Higby? It's because it's the only unique vehicle in the entire game. Go ahead and nerf it's agility, in the meantime give it a gun turret that's half as good as the Vanguard or Prowler. The Magrider has agility because you gave it a turret that doesn't shoot half as vertical as the Prowler or Vanguard and it cannot move horizontal at all. Give it two shots like the Prowler or an invulnerability shield like the Vanguard. If you nerf the agility of the Magrider it'll be completely useless. It's already the worst tank 1 on 1 with any weapon setup. You guys are big on statistics and data comparison, please show us the numbers you're looking at to justify the Magrider nerf.

Fix the Vanguard acceleration, don't change a vehicle that is overused because it's unique. The Prowler is more than fine as it is, it can run circles around a Magrider faster than the Magrider can spin to keep hitting it.
Are you seriously in denial about the Magrider's overpowered-ness?

The problem with the Magrider is they can easily evade incoming shots with their ability to move in any direction. They are strong in any range, especially long ones.

In long ranged fights, especially when it can position itself in normally inaccessible areas, they are nigh invincible. The only normal counter would be to use air. And even with that I've seen magriders easily evade point-blank air attacks ( I say 'see' because I never use air units).

Hence, the magriders chew everything on the ground long range while dance about and hide on top the hill easily evading every ground counters like nothing.

The strafe speed should be a quarter of what it is now. Strafing gives magriders extreme survivability. They evade rockets and base turret projectiles like nothing.

Also increase the damage dropoff. A super accurate tank that can glide and camp in all terrain should have disadvantages.

All in all, it's pointless fighting Magriders if it can't be hit and because of it can kill faster than it can be killed. This is like a Vanguard having a 2 minute invulnerability with 1 minute cooldown.

[Bags]

magrider is by far the best tank lol

wish they'd buff enemy tank up to its level tho, mag is the only fun thing in the game to do.

[moosepoop]

the magrider should get some drift and slower acceleration

[Higby]

Someone asked me what the VS got as an empire advantage, that tweet was an answer to that question - not a declaration of impending nerfs.

IF we change the Magrider it wouldn't be any sort of change to it's maneuverability at all, that's what they're SUPPOSED to do.

We are considering some MBT changes though, including potentially

Removing or reducing magrider front armor since Magriders always have their front facing the things they're fighting, so the front armor bonus scales a bit better for them compared to the other two tanks.

Increasing the muzzle velocity for Vanguard cannons, this would help them be more effective at standoff ranges vs the other tanks, especially the Magrider, and it fits with the NC MO.

Prowlers are only performing very, very slightly below magriders in general right now, so we think they're probably alright, but if anything they might get a minor damage increase to AP and HEAT rounds. Check Food Lovers Specials (https://www.especials.co.za/food-lovers/) and Game Specials (https://www.especials.co.za/game/).

We're still playing with these changes internally, so it's not by any means a done deal.

[BossRigs]

Someone asked me what the VS got as an empire advantage, that tweet was an answer to that question - not a declaration of impending nerfs.

IF we change the Magrider it wouldn't be any sort of change to it's maneuverability at all, that's what they're SUPPOSED to do.

We are considering some MBT changes though, including potentially

Removing or reducing magrider front armor since Magriders always have their front facing the things they're fighting, so the front armor bonus scales a bit better for them compared to the other two tanks.

Increasing the muzzle velocity for Vanguard cannons, this would help them be more effective at standoff ranges vs the other tanks, especially the Magrider, and it fits with the NC MO.

Prowlers are only performing very, very slightly below magriders in general right now, so we think they're probably alright, but if anything they might get a minor damage increase to AP and HEAT rounds.

We're still playing with these changes internally, so it's not by any means a done deal.

I have personally invested $20 or so bucks in my Magrider, and next to my Scythe it is my best killing weapon. Not saying it is at all OP, but all the above-mentioned items seem legit to us here at BossRigs.com. Thanks again for everything, really appreciate it. Tonight was major fun. I mean it, tonight was super epic. And please people stop the damn bitching and moaning, enjoy the freaking game. Had a 50+ KS in my max, and 20+KS in the Magrider. Would be still killing NC and TR ass right now in my Mag if I didn't have to make an appearance at Hard Rock and F6 tonight FML my life is tough. #LifeOfABoss

:cool:

[Chewy]

Someone asked me what the VS got as an empire advantage, that tweet was an answer to that question - not a declaration of impending nerfs.

IF we change the Magrider it wouldn't be any sort of change to it's maneuverability at all, that's what they're SUPPOSED to do.

We are considering some MBT changes though, including potentially

Removing or reducing magrider front armor since Magriders always have their front facing the things they're fighting, so the front armor bonus scales a bit better for them compared to the other two tanks.

Increasing the muzzle velocity for Vanguard cannons, this would help them be more effective at standoff ranges vs the other tanks, especially the Magrider, and it fits with the NC MO.

Prowlers are only performing very, very slightly below magriders in general right now, so we think they're probably alright, but if anything they might get a minor damage increase to AP and HEAT rounds.

We're still playing with these changes internally, so it's not by any means a done deal.

Go to bed, you guys had a long day. My excuse for being up at 3:30am is an insomnia. :p

[EvilNinjadude]

Someone asked me what the VS got as an empire advantage, that tweet was an answer to that question - not a declaration of impending nerfs.

IF we change the Magrider it wouldn't be any sort of change to it's maneuverability at all, that's what they're SUPPOSED to do.

We are considering some MBT changes though, including potentially

Removing or reducing magrider front armor since Magriders always have their front facing the things they're fighting, so the front armor bonus scales a bit better for them compared to the other two tanks.

Increasing the muzzle velocity for Vanguard cannons, this would help them be more effective at standoff ranges vs the other tanks, especially the Magrider, and it fits with the NC MO.

Prowlers are only performing very, very slightly below magriders in general right now, so we think they're probably alright, but if anything they might get a minor damage increase to AP and HEAT rounds.

We're still playing with these changes internally, so it's not by any means a done deal.

Let this be a Lesson to all the people who claim that Magriders are not OP.

Glad you guys are taking a Buff-not-nerf approach and are trying to see the problem from as many sides as possible.:)

[Canaris]

Someone asked me what the VS got as an empire advantage, that tweet was an answer to that question - not a declaration of impending nerfs.

IF we change the Magrider it wouldn't be any sort of change to it's maneuverability at all, that's what they're SUPPOSED to do.

We are considering some MBT changes though, including potentially

Removing or reducing magrider front armor since Magriders always have their front facing the things they're fighting, so the front armor bonus scales a bit better for them compared to the other two tanks.

Increasing the muzzle velocity for Vanguard cannons, this would help them be more effective at standoff ranges vs the other tanks, especially the Magrider, and it fits with the NC MO.

Prowlers are only performing very, very slightly below magriders in general right now, so we think they're probably alright, but if anything they might get a minor damage increase to AP and HEAT rounds.

We're still playing with these changes internally, so it's not by any means a done deal.

*gets down on his knees with his hands clasped together in pleading* please for the love of Democracy can you test out or let us test out a Prowler with centralised cannons, pwwwweeeeeaaaassssseeeeee :tear:

[ChipMHazard]

Prowlers are only performing very, very slightly below magriders in general right now, so we think they're probably alright, but if anything they might get a minor damage increase to AP and HEAT rounds.


Oh, aye. "Very, very slightly"... Just like "soon(TM)". The Prowler's design still has flaws, which have been pointed out more than once. Give us a centralized turret, then we can talk about other buffs. A minor damage increase will do nothing to actually balance out the Prowler, especially considering that the anchor mode is so very, very bad when compared to the speed boost and shield. It still goes against everything the Prowler stands for, getting up close as fast as possible.
If that's what you guys ment when you made the comment about buffing the Prowler then colour me severely dissapointed.

The potential changes to the Vanguard and Magrider look more promising.

[Larington]

Perhaps they should just take away the lock down aspect of the prowlers ability, just a timed thing like the vanguard shield is timed.

Me, I've lately found myself wishing I could fit the AI gun on my lightning (even without an alt gun) so I can run it as an escort tank for the heavier ones.

[Rothnang]

The Magrider doesn't need a nerf, because it's only better at low skill levels. When you're fighting against a Vanguard driver who actually knows what the hell he's doing he's going to kick the Magriders ass every time. You know why? Because his tank is numerically better, and has an invulnerability shield.

Sure, when you're dealing with someone who just turns the turret as the Magrider blows past him and then goes "Whoah, unfair, he's hitting my back armor while I'm still shooting his front", yea, the Magrider is really overpowered against that idiot. The second you're dealing with someone who turns the hull to keep the Magrider perpetually facing his front armor no matter where it goes, oh hey, Vanguard wins.

I really don't like balancing for peoples inability.

[ChipMHazard]

Ah, the good old blame the players.
You did however fail to mention that Magriders are able to dodge incoming fire more easily than other MBTs the further away they are from each other. I highly doubt that a good Vanguard player will always win against an equally good Magrider player based solely on the Vanguard having the shield ability and dealing more damage. You have to be able to hit your opponent for your higher damage per shot to matter.
Making sure that when other tanks do hit the Magrider it hurst more, from the front, would be one way to handle it.

Both the Vanguard and Magrider have an effecient way to avoid taking damage, via the shield and speed boost/mobility respectively. Something the Prowler lacks.

[Archonzero]

Uh, Chip that's exactly why Magriders (good ones) opt to engage from long range.. also part of the Vanu faction strength, long range + mobility.

Someone else mentioned something about a lack of main gun rounds.. step away from the crack pipe please. The drop trajectory is practically the same as the vanguards, if anything the magrider's maingun angles of elevation are much more limited. Just to clarify to the crack smokers, I'm referring to up an down angle of attack. We have a great range for down angle firing, which is why most magriders are successful for high ground attacking.

Second, mobility + ABoost is our only survival key in open warfare. We cannot "hull down" to use terrain as a shield for operating our maingun. This is most likely why the SARON seems so powerful to other factions, if we do hull down. It's the only weapon in which we can attack back with, which effectively reduces our attack strength down to 1/3. HRB rounds does 1/2 dmg when compared to a maingun round. So again if you think the SARON is OP lay off the crack pipe.

Another person spoke up about Mag pilots with Sarons, most magriders run with 2/2 an are fitted as TANK HUNTERS. That is our outfitted primary role, killing armor. Not HE spamming infantry. Any Prowler/Vanguard fitted for tank hunting operations an seated with 2/2 is just as effective.

An Chip, I have a fitted AT Vanguard on my NC toon an I do incredibly well against 2/2 Magriders (at all ranges) even when I operate it as 1/2 manned. The heavy shield is very handy, but shot placement, shot prediction and understanding your opponents movement pattern are key to success.

[ChipMHazard]

Uh, Chip that's exactly why Magriders (good ones) opt to engage from long range.. also part of the Vanu faction strength, long range + mobility.

Second, mobility + ABoost is our only survival key in open warfare. We cannot "hull down" to use terrain as a shield for operating our maingun. This is most likely why the SARON seems so powerful to other factions, if we do hull down. It's the only weapon in which we can attack back with, which effectively reduces our attack strength down to 1/3. HRB rounds does 1/2 dmg when compared to a maingun round. So again if you think the SARON is OP lay off the crack pipe.

Another person spoke up about Mag pilots with Sarons, most magriders run with 2/2 an are fitted as TANK HUNTERS. That is our outfitted primary role, killing armor. Not HE spamming infantry. Any Prowler/Vanguard fitted for tank hunting operations an seated with 2/2 is just as effective.

I have a fitted AT, Vanguard on my NC toon an it does incredibly well against 2/2 Magriders, even when I operate it solo. The heavy shield is very handy, shot placement an movement prediction when facing a magrider is key to success.

I know. My comment was about disproving that a good Vanguard player will always win against a good Magrider player. Which is just silly because of that very reason.

I only rarely saw anyone trying to hull down and there's only so much space to go around to allow for that tactic in large scale engagements. Basing the design around wanting players to hull down is just a bad idea, especially because of Esamir.
I don't believe that the Prowler has somehow become just as overall effective as the Vanguard and the Magrider since my absence. You have to get very close for the Vulcan to be effective and the recoil on the main cannons haven't been tweaked yet. So it can still be a pain to land both rounds.

It was the most powerful secondary weapon at the time when I stopped playing. It was a sniper. If that's has changed then ok.

Vanguards are great tanks, no question about it. I don't believe that they are as overall effective as the Magriders, but pretty darn close. I've never really used the Vanguard, only the Magrider and Prowler. So I'll defer to your experience on the matter of the Vanguards effectiveness.

[artifice]

Someone asked me what the VS got as an empire advantage, that tweet was an answer to that question - not a declaration of impending nerfs.

IF we change the Magrider it wouldn't be any sort of change to it's maneuverability at all, that's what they're SUPPOSED to do.

We are considering some MBT changes though, including potentially

Removing or reducing magrider front armor since Magriders always have their front facing the things they're fighting, so the front armor bonus scales a bit better for them compared to the other two tanks.

Increasing the muzzle velocity for Vanguard cannons, this would help them be more effective at standoff ranges vs the other tanks, especially the Magrider, and it fits with the NC MO.

Prowlers are only performing very, very slightly below magriders in general right now, so we think they're probably alright, but if anything they might get a minor damage increase to AP and HEAT rounds.

We're still playing with these changes internally, so it's not by any means a done deal.

I would recommend stabilizers on the Vanguard and Prowler primary weapons. This would allow them to move and fire at the same time without every little bump in the road messing up the aim. They wouldn't be as manueverable as the Magrider, but it would help in that regard. I really doubt the future involves a regression in gyro technology. :)

[psijaka]

Speaking as someone who plays NC dual AV MAX a lot, I am much more wary of Magriders than of Prowlers; they seem to be able to get anywhere and their strafe ability + low profile makes them a tough nut to crack.

Edit - I do think that the NC AV MAX is a tad OP, but only against infantry at medium range; and definately not against tanks, especially the Magrider.

[almalino]

Speaking as someone who plays NC AV MAX, I am much more wary of Magriders than of Prowlers; they seem to be able to get anywhere and their strafe ability + low profile makes them a tough nut to crack.

A modest agility nerf is a reasonable and necessary step for SoE to take.

As a regular Vanguard/Lighting driver I even do not try to engage against Magraiders because it is useless ammo waste. I cannot hit them whatever I tried. They always escape.

Though yesterday I managed to kill one because, apparently, he forgot about its strafing ability :) May be some newbie

[Aveox]

We cannot "hull down" to use terrain as a shield for operating our maingun.

Actually, you can. But not in the traditional sense. You need to drive up a shallow incline to tilt the tank backwards and then you can poke your main gun just over the ridge. Since it is mounted at the very front you are hull down to the enemy. The downside is that the secondary gun cannot angle down that far and becomes useless, which is why I rarely use it.

[Rothnang]

You did however fail to mention that Magriders are able to dodge incoming fire more easily than other MBTs the further away they are from each other. I highly doubt that a good Vanguard player will always win against an equally good Magrider player based solely on the Vanguard having the shield ability and dealing more damage. You have to be able to hit your opponent for your higher damage per shot to matter.
Making sure that when other tanks do hit the Magrider it hurst more, from the front, would be one way to handle it.


If you're so far away from an enemy tank that not all shots are hits there is really no way you should ever die to another tank. In what kind of battle are you getting into long range fights with a Magrider, where admittedly it has an advantage, and then you just stand there while the Magrider has his way with you until you die?

In order to produce a tank on tank kill someone has to be close enough to deny you cover and repairs, and when you're that close it should be pretty trivial to hit a gigantic tank even if it does move left and right a bit.


I mean, the reason why the mag riders long range advantage IMO doesn't at all translate into an overpowered tank is that only someone who is incredibly reckless should ever die in a long range tank battle. If the enemy has no way to follow you around that big rock you just drove behind to put a new paint job on then how can he possibly kill you? I have yet to lose a Magrider, Lighting or Vanguard in a long range battle, I mean, out of all the possible ways to lose a tank that is easily the most avoidable one.

[ChipMHazard]

If you're so far away from an enemy tank that not all shots are hits there is really no way you should ever die to another tank. In what kind of battle are you getting into long range fights with a Magrider, where admittedly it has an advantage, and then you just stand there while the Magrider has his way with you until you die?

In order to produce a tank on tank kill someone has to be close enough to deny you cover and repairs, and when you're that close it should be pretty trivial to hit a gigantic tank.

Well, the problem with trying to get closer to an enemy tank, especially when it comes to Magriders, is they are also driving further away to keep the gap as much as possible.
Trying to close the gap quickly is especially fatal during large engagements.

That's how most of the larger engagements were being fought before I left, at least on Amerish and Esamir.

[Aveox]

You did however fail to mention that Magriders are able to dodge incoming fire more easily than other MBTs the further away they are from each other.

Rotate tank body so the side faces your enemy and drive forward/backwards to dodge.
I can do that in a Lightning. Surely it must be possible with a Vanguard and Prowler as well?

[ChipMHazard]

Rotate tank body so the side faces your enemy and drive forward/backwards to dodge.
I can do that in a Lightning. Surely it must be possible with a Vanguard and Prowler as well?

Of course. Just not as easy nor as fast, when it comes to how fast you can start moving side to side, as when using a Magrider. Also the Magrider doesn't have to expose it's side armor to strafe.

[almalino]

Rotate tank body so the side faces your enemy and drive forward/backwards to dodge.
I can do that in a Lightning. Surely it must be possible with a Vanguard and Prowler as well?

Tell it to me when yesterday I was driving backwards on Vanguard fighting approaching Magrider and hit the building with my back. After that I could move only forward because all rotation was blocked by the building. If I would have Magrider I will just strafe but I was Vanguard and could not strafe and was immediately ripped appart :)

Just imagine an infantry soldier who can strafe vs the soldier who cannot. Who you think will win at the end?

[Rothnang]

Well, the problem with trying to get closer to an enemy tank, especially when it comes to Magriders, is they are also driving further away to keep the gap as much as possible.
Trying to close the gap quickly is especially fatal during large engagements.

That's how most of the larger engagements were being fought before I left, at least on Amerish and Esamir.

Trying to get close to a large enemy tank formation is no less deadly to a Magrider than it is to any other tank. Large tank battles tend to turn into a stalemate unless you intervene with aircraft or manage to drive another force of tanks or a Sundie with some heavies behind the enemy and outflank them.

Tank battles in PS2 are very much like conventional military strategy works in real life, if you're attacking an enemy from just one side he will have a very easy time staying in cover or retreating when in trouble, and you won't be able to move up to him to get around his cover or hunt him down when he's making a retreat without getting shot to ribbons. You need to get around that by maneuvering on the enemy.

Magriders may have an inherent advantage avoiding damage at long range, but they don't have an advantage when it comes to whether or not they can decide a long range fight in their favor without other forces intervening.

Yes, the Magrider is the most maneuverable MBT, so you could argue that it has an advantage when it actually comes to outflanking the enemy tank column, but as far as I'm concerned the tank most uniquely suited to that is the Lightning, or a Sunderer with HAs, which the Vanu don't have any better versions of than other empires.

[ChipMHazard]

Trying to get close to a large enemy tank formation is no less deadly to a Magrider than it is to any other tank. Large tank battles tend to turn into a stalemate unless you intervene with aircraft or manage to drive another force of tanks or a Sundie with some heavies behind the enemy and outflank them.

Tank battles in PS2 are very much like conventional military strategy works in real life, if you're attacking an enemy from just one side he will have a very easy time staying in cover or retreating when in trouble, and you won't be able to move up to him to get around his cover or hunt him down when he's making a retreat without getting shot to ribbons. You need to get around that by maneuvering on the enemy.

Magriders may have an inherent advantage avoiding damage at long range, but they don't have an advantage when it comes to whether or not they can decide a long range fight in their favor without other forces intervening.

Yes, the Magrider is the most maneuverable MBT, so you could argue that it has an advantage when it actually comes to outflanking the enemy tank column, but as far as I'm concerned the tank most uniquely suited to that is the Lightning, or a Sunderer with HAs, which the Vanu don't have any better versions of than other empires.

True, but magriders don't need to get as close as a Prowler does. It's better off not getting too close, in large engagements. You're right that large engagements do end up getting bogged down. At least until one side has taken out enough to try and rush the enemy.

Outflanking is always better than trying to just attack an enemy head on. This however doesn't have anything, or very little, to do with balancing the MBTs. They, of course, have to balanced towards facing each other on equal terms, not one coming in from behind, from up top, from the side etc. Obviously I'm not against different tanks having different strengths and weaknesses, not at all. I really like the tank design in the original.

True, this is a combined arms game. This doesn't mean that the magrider gets to be overall better, again imo., than both the Vanguard and Prowler. They have to be equally as good.

True enough, but I don't see what that has to do with balancing the MBTs.

[almalino]

I think we all are just wining TR NC drivers who are jelaous to Magradier ability to snipe people from the hill tops :)

[ChipMHazard]

I think we all are just wining TR NC drivers who are jelaous to Magradier ability to snipe people from the hill tops :)

Guilty as charged:D

[Koadster]

Oh, aye. "Very, very slightly"... Just like "soon(TM)". The Prowler's design still has flaws, which have been pointed out more than once. Give us a centralized turret, then we can talk about other buffs. A minor damage increase will do nothing to actually balance out the Prowler, especially considering that the anchor mode is so very, very bad when compared to the speed boost and shield. It still goes against everything the Prowler stands for, getting up close as fast as possible.
If that's what you guys ment when you made the comment about buffing the Prowler then colour me severely dissapointed.

The potential changes to the Vanguard and Magrider look more promising.

You really think Ehigby wants to fix the prowler. :rofl: Since early beta we have been wanting changes. As a HA at any distance we have to BUY launchers to fight off mags, atleast vannies and prowlers are tracked so you got a better change.. Driving a mag *moves 10 paces left* you missle is now ineffective.

[Rothnang]

What I'm ultimately just completely opposed to is to make the Magrider numerically much weaker than the Vanguard or the Prowler in some attempt to balance for its maneuverability.

The Magrider already has a lot of unique downsides that people like to just gloss over, like the fact that you can't drive a Magrider around backwards since you can't see out the back, which is a pretty big deal, since it really hampers your ability to retreat from a fight while your best armor still faces the enemy. It's also considerably weaker than the other tanks in urban warfare type scenarios because your situational awareness in a Magrider really suffers from not being able to look around without turning your whole tank.

There are tons of scenarios where turreted tanks are simply better. For example, if you have a scenario where you've become surrounded by three enemy heavies, two on one side and one on the other and you can't run away. The best course of action for a turreted tank is to turn the tank sideways so you aren't catching any of the rockets on your back armor, then kill the single heavy, so one side is clear, then turn your front armor toward the other two while you try to fight them. If we assume that every time you kill one they all also shoot a rocket you would survive the encounter that way.
Now think about that scenario with the Magrider. If you try to kill the lone Heavy first the other two will shoot you in the back, so you just lost the fight right there. If you try to catch rockets on your sides you can't shoot back, so that's no way to win, if you shoot one of the two heavies first you'll take a missile in the rear and then you're right back to not being able to attack either one without the other killing you...

Granted, that's a very specific scenario and not one that crops up often, but variations of that type of dilemma happen a lot in the game, and a tank that can rotate its turret independently from its hull has a clear advantage there.

[almalino]

like the fact that you can't drive a Magrider around backwards since you can't see out the back, which is a pretty big deal, since it really hampers your ability to retreat from a fight while your best armor still faces the enemy.

You can switch to 3rd person view and in a way see what is behind you. So, this
not a strong argument. Also, have you tried to move backwards in Vanguard when you controls are effectively reverted in the middle of the fight?

[Rothnang]

I drive Lightnings more than Magriders, and I have an NC character purely so I can take a Vanguard out for a spin every once in a while. External view doesn't really give you a way to look behind you, it just shows you things maybe 2 meters away from you, so it's more like a collision sensor than a rear view mirror.

I have no problem driving either of the turreted tanks backwards. I have both of them souped up with the rival chassis so they drive backwards just as fast as forward, because the ability to move full speed away from what you've turned your armor toward is incredibly powerful.


I get why people think the Magrider is easier to use, because since your gun is fixed to your front armor it automatically adjusts your armor to the best thing you can do in 90% of all situations. With every other tank it's very easy to forget keeping your hull pointed at the enemy because you're so focused on just shooting. I just think that if you're experienced enough that you don't have to think about the hull angling anymore, and you just do it automatically the turreted tanks open themselves up for mastering armor angling techniques that a Magrider can't ever use, and you can also start adjusting to the 10% of situations where you don't want to be pointing your armor at what you're shooting at.

[Ghoest9]

All this whining is crap.

At the end of it all the numbers show mag riders are way more successful on the battlefield than the other 2 tanks.
Thats why it is being nerfed.

[Fenrys]

it can run circles around a Magrider faster than the Magrider can spin to keep hitting it.

If you reverse while rotating, you can catch them.

[Rothnang]

At the end of it all the numbers show mag riders are way more successful on the battlefield than the other 2 tanks.
Thats why it is being nerfed.

Yes, and by taking the comparison of all Magriders vs. all other tanks and nerfing accordingly they are cutting off any skilled Magrider player at the knees just because unskilled Magriders outperform unskilled Vanguards and Prowlers.

Magrider drivers start out with perfect 1on1 armor angling by default. People who drive other tanks need to first learn how to do that. That's why Magriders win when you tally up how successful people are on average with the vehicle. When you're dealing with more proficient players though the Magrider just isn't that much better, if at all.

[ShadetheDruid]

I think what they need to do is just give Vanguards, Prowlers and Lightnings stabilised guns and see how that plays, both in regard to how they then get used and in actual battle situations against Magriders.

Also they need to fix the traction, both so we can actually climb hills better (like back in beta, maybe toned down a tad from that, but anything is better than the current traction), and so the tank doesn't very slowly slide around on its own when stationary.

[almalino]

Let see the situation Magraider vs Vanguard without upgrades head to head firing to each other at the same time.

Magraider strafe to the side and avoid being hit.
Vanguard cannot do that and must receive the hit in it's front :)

Result is that Vanaguard is damaged and Magrider is not. Profit :) For Magraider.

[Rothnang]

A vanguard can strafe while taking hits to the front if it angles its hull to a <45° angle and just drives forward and backward.

Saying stuff like "Only Magriders can strafe" is exactly why I think it's the general lack of experience with controlling turreted vehicles that's causing peoples inflated opinion of the Magrider.

Anyone who thinks Magriders are so infinitely better than other tanks really needs a month of remedial World of Tanks.

[almalino]

A vanguard can strafe while taking hits to the front if it angles its hull to a <45° angle and just drives forward and backward.

Saying stuff like "Only Magriders can strafe" is exactly why I think it's the general lack of experience with controlling turreted vehicles that's causing peoples inflated opinion of the Magrider.

Anyone who thinks Magriders are so infinitely better than other tanks really needs a month of remedial World of Tanks.


45%? But but. Then you expose weak side armor to Magrider then. I would never do that unless I want to die fast. Ans also you need to think while drivinbg Vanguard and take extrasteps while Magrider jist pres lefft and right to strafe :)

Comon. You could have even proposed 90%. Why not? Strafing is even faster that way

[neoritter]

Of course. Just not as easy nor as fast, when it comes to how fast you can start moving side to side, as when using a Magrider. Also the Magrider doesn't have to expose it's side armor to strafe.
You should have a side armor upgrade. Put your side to tanks, rival chasis, and drive forward and back as the bullets fly. Not that hard. Plus, you can SEE the magrider's shots way better than anyone elses. I dodge mag shots all day long during an engagement. What I love to see when playing VS in a mag is enemy tanks driving past me and exposing their rears. I see it all the time.

As others said, you have to flank the mag. It's hard as hell when using a magrider to see your flanks, 9/10 when I die it's because I wasn't keeping myself on a swivel.

[almalino]

You should have a side armor upgrade. P

Basically it means stock Vanguard without upgrades is weaker then stock Magrider

[Rothnang]

45%? But but. Then you expose weak side armor to Magrider then. I would never do that unless I want to die fast. Ans also you need to think while drivinbg Vanguard and take extrasteps while Magrider jist pres lefft and right to strafe :)

Comon. You could have even proposed 90%. Why not? Strafing is even faster that way

Planetside 2 doesn't determine armor groupings by which part of the tank you hit, but by the angle you hit it at. If you shoot an enemy tank anywhere while you're in its front 90° it counts as a hit to the front armor, if you shoot it anywhere while you're in its back 90° it counts as a hit to the back armor, completely regardless of whether or not you hit the tank on its actual front or back.

Test it out. In fact, this even applies to the turret. If someone shoots you in the turret from the front you get the full armor protection, if someone shoots you in the turret from the back it has paper armor, even if you're looking right at the guy in both instances.


Also the Vanguard has stronger stock front armor than the Magrider, which is why side armor is so common on Vanguards, it gives them superb protection from 3 out of 4 sides.

[ChipMHazard]

You should have a side armor upgrade. Put your side to tanks, rival chasis, and drive forward and back as the bullets fly. Not that hard. Plus, you can SEE the magrider's shots way better than anyone elses. I dodge mag shots all day long during an engagement. What I love to see when playing VS in a mag is enemy tanks driving past me and exposing their rears. I see it all the time.

As others said, you have to flank the mag. It's hard as hell when using a magrider to see your flanks, 9/10 when I die it's because I wasn't keeping myself on a swivel.

That is still a bad argument. I shouldn't have to do anything that a Magrider player shouldn't in order to stay as competitive, within reason as they are designed differently. If a Prowler needs to take side armor than so should a Magrider.
Also putting on extra side armor still doesn't make it as effective as front armor. If the Magrider hits you then it's going to do more damage than if you hit it on it's front armor.
I don't see that being able to more easily see the plasma round has to do with anything as it certainly doesn't make up for the Prowler's shortcomings, nor does it make the Magrider weaker in any real sense.

Also no MBT should have to use flanking in order to match another MBT, period. I cannot see how you can't balance things like that. The Magrider is naturally more inclined towards facing it's opponent face on since its cannon is forward mounted, but every MBT is at a disadvantage when attacked from the side or rear.

A vanguard can strafe while taking hits to the front if it angles its hull to a <45° angle and just drives forward and backward.

Saying stuff like "Only Magriders can strafe" is exactly why I think it's the general lack of experience with controlling turreted vehicles that's causing peoples inflated opinion of the Magrider.

That's not really strafing, you're just moving forward and backwards in an angle. And please stop it with the "learn to play" argument.

You really think Ehigby wants to fix the prowler. :rofl:

I know, I'm a fool for thinking that they are going to change the design. It's obvious that they really like their design and it's almost certainly not going to change. I do so much want to have a centralized turret. :(

What I'm ultimately just completely opposed to is to make the Magrider numerically much weaker than the Vanguard or the Prowler in some attempt to balance for its maneuverability.

[snip]

Granted, that's a very specific scenario and not one that crops up often, but variations of that type of dilemma happen a lot in the game, and a tank that can rotate its turret independently from its hull has a clear advantage there.

Nor would I want them to. I would rather have them buff the other MBTs up to the same level as the Magrider. Makes it easier to balance things from there.
I still like the idea of reducing the Magrider's front armor though.

You're right, not having a turret is a weakness for the Magrider. As you noted it's not an issue that crops up so much but there are situations where it becomes very noticeable.

I would really like to see the old PS1 designs make a comeback.

[almalino]

I just cannot find out any things that are better on stock Vanguard then on stock Magrider.

Strafing of Magrider basically nullify stronger armor and stronger hit of Vanguard because Vanguard just cannot hit the Magrider and Magrider can hit Vanguard in 1 to 1 encounter.

[Rothnang]

That's not really strafing, you're just moving forward and backwards in an angle. And please stop it with the "learn to play" argument.

The effect is the same where the enemies ability to hit you is concerned.

Also it's not a "learn to play" argument, it's just pointing out the obvious. People are using turreted vehicles wrong all the time, I see it on a daily basis in every single faction.

I wish I had a video of the hundreds of lightning vs. lightning fights I've won just because someone tried to drive past me and shoot me in the back, and all I did was stand there, keep my front turned, while hitting them in the side and back as they go past, easily killing them.

People do screw this up all the time, and they wouldn't have such a substantial problem if they learned how to use their tank the right way. I would bet that if the Magrider had a turret on top, even if it retained the ability to strafe, its average performance would go down, just because the average player doesn't multitask between armor facing and weapon facing well.

It is difficult for people to wrap their head around the multitasking of dealing with a turreted vehicle, that's simply a fact. Just keep a little mental tally in vehicle fights how many times someone exposed their sides or back instead of just stoically turning their front toward you when you're fighting TR or Lightning tanks. I don't think you'll argue that there is no arrogance in saying a lot of people are making mistakes here and lose fights because of it.



As far as reducing the Magriders front armor is concerned, that's exactly the kind of nerf that is absolutely uncalled for, because now you've created a situation where any Vanguard or Prowler driver who knows how to keep his front armor facing his opponent and who can land shots even if the enemy moves side to side a bit wins by default.

This is exactly the kind of thing I don't want to see, lowering the Magriders effective ceiling in an attempt to bring the average in line is just deliberately depriving people of the ability to get really good with a certain vehicle, just because it's more noob friendly at the low end. Relegating an entire faction to just having the noob vehicles that are easy to learn, but you can never really take to heights of mastery is a terrible idea.

What we should be thinking about is how to make Vanguards and Prowlers more easy to understand for people. Maybe there needs to be an additional UI element that shows you your armor facings better, and graphically indicates how well protected you are from that side. Maybe a big ring you see on your UI that's locked to your hull and shows you tick marks that show you what side of your tank is exposed to an enemy. The ring would then have some kind of indicator, like a big beefy looking shield for front armor, some medium ones for side armor, and a small dinky one for back armor, so that whenever people are looking down their sights there is an indicator directly on their screen that shows them "Hey, big beefy shield, that looks good, I want to keep that there, hey, he drove to the side with the smaller shield, I better turn my tank to get the big beefy one up there again"...


As far as I'm concerned educating people on how to use the other factions MBTs right is the most essential part here, because just nerfing away will lead to a situation where the people who have mastered the armor facings on other tanks are going to stomp all over the Magriders that got nerfed to compensate for people who weren't using the other tanks to their full potential.

[almalino]

Rothnang,

Any our arguments you put down to "Learn to play" again. Magraider is basically a turret that can move in all directions, rotate and strafe. Everythiung that Vanguard can do Magrader can also do plus strafe on top of that.

[Rothnang]

You can whine about evil people who say "Learn to play" all you want, it doesn't change the fact that the main reason why Magriders consistently outfight Vanguards and Prowlers is because they consistently come up against people who have problems with the concept of controlling the hull and the turret independently, which the Magrider can't do, which makes it easier to learn, but leaves it with fewer overall options.

Magrider is like driving automatic, Prowler and Vanguard is like driving stick. Automatic is really easy and you can't screw it up, but with a stickshift you get a higher level of control once you're good at it.

[LoliLoveFart]

I agree wtih Rothgang on his point about lowering the skill ceiling for mags.
However, Statistically Mags do out perform other MBTs because they are generally the easiest to use in tank v tank.
But if you base your argument purely off of numbers you are building a house of cards.
There are too many extenuating circumstances for numbers to be the be all and end all of an argument.
Where a mag is strong in tank v tank it is generally fairly bad at killing infantry, its low slung turret has trouble firing over terrain and when a mag gets bogged down killing infantry it usually gets flanked fairly quickly. Farming infantry is something the prowler excells at. The Vanguard is sort of a black sheep in this, with its strong front armour you would be allowed to assume it is a tank killer but none of its secondary weapons really lend to it being good at tank v tank. Like it has been said time and time again in this thread only for some people to gloss over to beat their fists. Each tank has its advantages and drawbacks. Give the other tanks some love and call it a day. Won't stop the complaining though. That will only stop when the mag can only drive in one direction, can't strafe, dies in one hit and its secondary sneezes at things.

I guess some people can't into asymetrical balancing.

[ChipMHazard]

The effect is the same where the enemies ability to hit you is concerned.

Also it's not a "learn to play" argument, it's just pointing out the obvious. People are using turreted vehicles wrong all the time, I see it on a daily basis in every single faction.

[snip]


As far as reducing the Magriders front armor is concerned, that's exactly the kind of nerf that is absolutely uncalled for, because now you've created a situation where any Vanguard or Prowler driver who knows how to keep his front armor facing his opponent and who can land shots even if the enemy moves side to side a bit wins by default.

This is exactly the kind of thing I don't want to see, lowering the Magriders effective ceiling in an attempt to bring the average in line is just deliberately depriving people of the ability to get really good with a certain vehicle, just because it's more noob friendly at the low end. Relegating an entire faction to just having the noob vehicles that are easy to learn, but you can never really take to heights of mastery is a terrible idea.

What we should be thinking about is how to make Vanguards and Prowlers more easy to understand for people. Maybe there needs to be an additional UI element that shows you your armor facings better, and graphically indicates how well protected you are from that side. Maybe a big ring you see on your UI that's locked to your hull and shows you tick marks that show you what side of your tank is exposed to an enemy. The ring would then have some kind of indicator, like a big beefy looking shield for front armor, some medium ones for side armor, and a small dinky one for back armor, so that whenever people are looking down their sights there is an indicator directly on their screen that shows them "Hey, big beefy shield, that looks good, I want to keep that there, hey, he drove to the side with the smaller shield, I better turn my tank to get the big beefy one up there again"...

As far as I'm concerned educating people on how to use the other factions MBTs right is the most essential part here, because just nerfing away will lead to a situation where the people who have mastered the armor facings on other tanks are going to stomp all over the Magriders that got nerfed to compensate for people who weren't using the other tanks to their full potential.

Can't say I agree. Seems to be easier to dodge when actually strafing, than just driving back and forth.

Fair enough, I agree that some players do try to drive around others, heck I've even doon this myself until I learned it the hard way.

I wouldn't nerf the Magrider as my first course of action. I do think it would be better to first buff the others before trying to nerf the Magrider. But if they were to nerf something to make it balanced then the front armor nerf would probably be the one I would go for.

It would even make Magrider players try to outflank more often, something which has been suggested more than once that we Prowler players do.
I don't have any problem with making the Magrider a bit weaker than the rest when taking into account their maneuverability. It's easier for a Magrider to have it's front armor towards it's enemy at all times, while still retaining all of it's maneuverability. The Vanguard and Prowler may be able to turn their front to meet the Magrider but they also lose out on some of their maneuverability while doing so.
In essence I would like to see the Magrider become more like they were in the original, with turret and all.

I wouldn't mind having the UI actually show the arcs of the different sides of the armor. I don't think that would actually solve anything balance wise.

That's just a learn to play argument. You may be right, but then again it might just force Magriders to employ the same flanking tactics that people suggest other MBTs use. I'm not convinced that the Magrider would suddenly get steamrolled just because it can't take as much damage from the front. They are still more maneuverable than any other MBT.
Again the first thing to do imo. is to buff the Prowler and Vanguard. Then you can start tweaking them.

You can whine about evil people who say "Learn to play" all you want, it doesn't change the fact that the main reason why Magriders consistently outfight Vanguards and Prowlers is because they consistently come up against people who have problems with the concept of controlling the hull and the turret independently, which the Magrider can't do, which makes it easier to learn, but leaves it with fewer overall options.

I don't see how that's a fact in any shape or form, although I do agree that it's easier to move around in the Magrider. The Magrider is still better at constantly presenting its front than either of the other MBTs, which lose maneuverability when trying to do the same.

[Rothnang]

I guess I just don't see making the Magrider more fragile as justified since I don't have a problem with the idea of not trying to dodge shells and just focusing on angling armor and landing precise shots, and I also don't care if my enemy is trying to dodge shells, because he's a giant freaking tank and I'm going to hit him regardless of what he does at any range where I'd expect a kill.

[ChipMHazard]

Hopefully it won't be necessary after they finally apply their buffs.

[raw]

anyone whining about balance at this point is a fucking noob.

[grimey]

First off I am a Prowler driver. The basic stock prowler sucks at 1 on 1. The gun that makes the prowler is the Vulcan which is a close range weapon.

This coupled with the prowler's speed pretty much make it most powerful up close where you can easily land both shots and decimate with the vulcan. Which is where most prowler drivers go wrong.

Yes as a new tanker logically you want to sit back and snipe stuff which does not work as well as it does with the magrider or the vanguard.

Some people say the prowler is crap because "No tank should have to rely on flanking or getting close up to be effective and getting flanked sucks for ALL tanks... This is like saying "He's got a sniper rifle and I've got a shotgun I shouldn't have to move up to kill him."

If the Prowler is able to flank when properly armed it becomes a total nightmare. The same kind of nightmare most Snipers find themselves in if someone with a shotgun sneaks up on them.

If you can sneak up on magrider with a vulcan you can shoot it twice and one full vulcan clip in the rear and it will explode in about 5 seconds so fast he won't even be able to turn around fast enough to even shot you. I have personally done this multiple times.

Now if new players would hope into a magrider and use it like its not supposed to be used and charge in trying to flank and tries to go toe to toe with a prowler at 10 meters then they would complain about how OP the prowler is because they did not use it in its most effective way like trying to no scope with a sniper rifle.

These differences are what make each faction interesting and I like that the factions are different. The current proposed buff for damage on the prowler is not what the prowler needs more of. What the prowler needs more of is its speed.

Currently top speed on flat land for a stock prowler is 60 Kph meanwhile the vanguard has a stock speed of 55 Kph (granted the vanguards accelaration sucks) and the magrider has 50 Kph (countered by their agility and strafing).

So the prowler's speed bonus of 5 kph on vanguard and 10 kph on a magrider does not really seem like that big of a bonus especially if this is supposed to be one of the biggest features of the prowler and is required to make the best use of it.

If this was increased to 70 stock speed to make up for all the things that the vanguard and magrider do better then the prowler and allow people to close the gap a little faster and maybe people would use it as it is supposed to be used.

I would like it to be a stock speed of 70 and don't think that would be unbalanced. However I realize if they did buff the speed it might get bumped up to 65.

A stabilized turret would be nice for both the prowler and the Vanguard to help with shooting on the move.

[innociv]

We are considering some MBT changes though, including potentially

Removing or reducing magrider front armor since Magriders always have their front facing the things they're fighting, so the front armor bonus scales a bit better for them compared to the other two tanks.

Increasing the muzzle velocity for Vanguard cannons, this would help them be more effective at standoff ranges vs the other tanks, especially the Magrider, and it fits with the NC MO.

Welp.

I have to say I like the idea of more velocity, but I hate that only Vanguard would get it. More velocity is something we've been asking for a long time, and I don't really get why you don't just hotfix it into the game and see what happens since it's a 5 minute change(not including pushing the patch, sure). You can always hotfix it out.
I think there are already consistency issues with balance in this game. I don't want to be able to aim my Prowler's or Lightning's guns anymore because of the slight velocity difference it has from my Vanguard.

Here's the thing:
If you make all AP rounds 300m/s, it will benefit the Vanguard the least, and Magrider the most. The Magrider already has the 300m/s Saron that it's hitting other tanks at 500 or even 700 meters with, while the Vanguard even with the AP gun can't hit a Magrider past about 400m if it sees the shell being fired. So, the Magrider benefits from this the least, as it's already hitting people far away.
Prowler has to aim two shots, so not quite as much benefit.

Standard HEAT and HE should be 225m/s, and the AP should be 300m/s. People won't be saying the Saron is OP with it's 300m/s projectile and no drop if everyone else has a 300m/s main cannon.

As far as the frontal armor nerf or whatever, I couldn't care much really. I think just upping AP cannons to 300m/s will balance it all out and make it more worthwhile given that you lose your splash, and a nerf to Magrider's less or unnecessary.

[ChipMHazard]

Some people say the prowler is crap because "No tank should have to rely on flanking or getting close up to be effective and getting flanked sucks for ALL tanks... This is like saying "He's got a sniper rifle and I've got a shotgun I shouldn't have to move up to kill him."

If you can sneak up on magrider with a vulcan you can shoot it twice and one full vulcan clip in the rear and it will explode in about 5 seconds so fast he won't even be able to turn around fast enough to even shot you. I have personally done this multiple times.

Now if new players would hope into a magrider and use it like its not supposed to be used and charge in trying to flank and tries to go toe to toe with a prowler at 10 meters then they would complain about how OP the prowler is because they did not use it in its most effective way like trying to no scope with a sniper rifle.

These differences are what make each faction interesting and I like that the factions are different. The current proposed buff for damage on the prowler is not what the prowler needs more of. What the prowler needs more of is its speed.

Currently top speed on flat land for a stock prowler is 60 Kph meanwhile the vanguard has a stock speed of 55 Kph (granted the vanguards accelaration sucks) and the magrider has 50 Kph (countered by their agility and strafing).
So the prowler's speed bonus of 5 kph on vanguard and 10 kph on a magrider does not really seem like that big of a bonus especially if this is supposed to be one of the biggest features of the prowler and is required to make the best use of it.
If this was increased to 70 stock speed to make up for all the things that the vanguard and magrider do better then the prowler and allow people to close the gap a little faster and maybe people would use it as it is supposed to be used.
I would like it to be a stock speed of 70 and don't think that would be unbalanced. However I realize if they did buff the speed it might get bumped up to 65.

A stabilized turret would be nice for both the prowler and the Vanguard to help with shooting on the move.

No it's not. A rather strange comparison if you ask me.

Aye the Vulcan is crazy good in close quarters. The problem being that you have to get in range. Not something I've seen happen in the big engagements, but you might have.

Why would anyone willingly go into the range of a Vulcan? It can still outflank and take out a Prowler without having to get right up next to it. That's more about not playing to the strength of your foe than playing to your own strength. In the sense that Vanguards and Magriders aren't forced to only take on Prowlers at long range.

All of the MBTs are made for ranged engagements, medium range and beyond. No tank is designed to only work in close quarters, at least not from my perspective.
The Prowler is a strange mix of different design ideas. An anchor mode (that I guess is mostly designed towards bombarding your target); Basicly useless in close combat and negates the next point. Increased speed; Could be used to close the gap except it's not a big enough increase. Dual cannon; Only reason why they are better the closer you get is because of the recoil.
I don't really consider the Prowler to be better at closer range because of deliberate design choices, but because of the damn recoil and turret jerking.
If they want the Prowler to be an MBT designed for medium-close quarters fighting then they should really have designed it to fill that role better.

It feels like they didn't know which route to fully go. I agree that the proposed Prowler buff won't do squat to better balance it. I wouldn't mind it if they tweaked the Prowler to be more centered around getting in close very quickly, as long as they pick something and stick with it.

http://images.wikia.com/warhammer40kfanon/images/c/cd/Drive_me_closer_i_want_to_hit_them_with_my_sword.p ng

I agree that if they want speed to be the Prowler's special trait then they should improve it either passively, increasing it's flat speed, or by giving it the speed boost ability.

Agreed.

[innociv]

The effective range on the Vulcan is A LOT further than you think. As far if not further than what the Enforcer's is.
Wrong wrong WRONG!!!!!

Magriders are do not have way higher kill rates than the other 2 tanks because Vanu players are better and smarter than the other 2 factions.
Its because the tanks are either better or easier to use.

Seriously your post shows a profound stupidity.
I usually dont attack other posters - but saying your side has equal shipment but better players egregiously wrong and self serving.

You should be ashamed to even post.

Well it is easier to use. More than 95% of players on every faction are very bad, but the Magrider is the easier to use for that 95%.

[Assist]

Someone asked me what the VS got as an empire advantage, that tweet was an answer to that question - not a declaration of impending nerfs.

IF we change the Magrider it wouldn't be any sort of change to it's maneuverability at all, that's what they're SUPPOSED to do.

We are considering some MBT changes though, including potentially

Removing or reducing magrider front armor since Magriders always have their front facing the things they're fighting, so the front armor bonus scales a bit better for them compared to the other two tanks.

Increasing the muzzle velocity for Vanguard cannons, this would help them be more effective at standoff ranges vs the other tanks, especially the Magrider, and it fits with the NC MO.

Prowlers are only performing very, very slightly below magriders in general right now, so we think they're probably alright, but if anything they might get a minor damage increase to AP and HEAT rounds.

We're still playing with these changes internally, so it's not by any means a done deal.

Thanks for the reply.

I don't know that the Prowler needs a damage buff, it seems to outperform the Magrider in damage and certainly does more damage with comparable setups(VPC/Saron vs. HE/Vulcan). The Vulcan top gun really needs to be looked at, IMO.

If you buff the Vanguard that makes sense to me. The biggest issue I have with the Vanguard(having played with it a bit) is the incredibly slow acceleration. It feels like a sitting duck. Muzzle velocity would certainly help in a long-range 1v1 situation, but it's the movement that really hurts the Vanguard IMO. I think even with the projectile speed increase the Magrider will still be able to handle the Vanguard long range due to the Vanguard being an easy target.


A stabilized turret would be nice for both the prowler and the Vanguard to help with shooting on the move.

I also think this is a huge part of the difference in performance. I know it would be taking a bit of the physics and realism out of the game, but maybe make it a cert for the Prowler/Vanguard/Lightning?

[innociv]

The Vulcan doesn't really need looked at.

The game doesn't need to be watered down.
Balance by mediocrity isn't fun.

[neoritter]

All of the MBTs are made for ranged engagements, medium range and beyond. No tank is designed to only work in close quarters, at least not from my perspective.


You apparently don't have much experience or knowledge with the M4 Sherman from WW2. I understand this is a real world example, but it's not like speed and getting in close isn't rare in tank fights. Honestly it's silly to want all tank fights to be the same. If everyone was using a tank that was used in the same manner with the same stats than it'd be boring.

And as other said, there are advantages to all of them. When I'm using a magrider, I fear heavy infantry more than I do tanks. Because I have to turn to attack someone it's easy to be baited and get hit in the rear by another heavy, or worse a light infantry sneaks up with some explosives. Sneaking up on turreted tanks is a lot harder, they can swivel their turret and not alter the position of their back. That's the other thing that people forget with these debates. It not just MBT vs MBT it's MBT versus everything. If you weakened the front armor on Mags they'd be fodder for heavy infantry.

[ChipMHazard]

You apparently don't have much experience or knowledge with the M4 Sherman from WW2. I understand this is a real world example, but it's not like speed and getting in close isn't rare in tank fights. Honestly it's silly to want all tank fights to be the same. If everyone was using a tank that was used in the same manner with the same stats than it'd be boring.

And as other said, there are advantages to all of them. When I'm using a magrider, I fear heavy infantry more than I do tanks. Because I have to turn to attack someone it's easy to be baited and get hit in the rear by another heavy, or worse a light infantry sneaks up with some explosives. Sneaking up on turreted tanks is a lot harder, they can swivel their turret and not alter the position of their back. That's the other thing that people forget with these debates. It not just MBT vs MBT it's MBT versus everything. If you weakened the front armor on Mags they'd be fodder for heavy infantry.

Well actually I am familiar with the good old Tommy cooker. But WHAT ON EARTH DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH WHAT I WROTE... Ahem, sorry.
Like I wrote before the Prowler doesn't seem to be designed for close quarters, the only design choice which seems to reflect this is the Vulcan.
You really shouldn't use real life examples if you aren't going to be using them correctly. Because the early M4 Shermans were armed with short-barreled 75mm guns they had to get in rather close to Tigers, they also had to use their superior numbers. There's a reason why they designed the M4A1 and the Firefly, they were tired of dying.
So unless you're suggesting that for every Magrider/Vanguard destroyed we have to sacrifice 4 Prowlers it's a rather bad example. :D
Also the Sherman was never designed to go up against other tanks as their primary function, according to their doctrine, that was the role of the tank destroyer.


There isn't really any advantage to the Prowler. It's a wee bit faster and it has a smaller turret than the Vanguard, but it's also shaped like a brick, has a rubbish special ability, it needs to land both shots before dealing full damage and the recoil/turret jerking is bloody irritating.
The MBTs had more clear advantages and disadvantages in the original Planetside.
It's a combined arms game, but that's not what MBTs should be balanced against when it comes to balancing them against each other.

[maradine]

I also think this is a huge part of the difference in performance. I know it would be taking a bit of the physics and realism out of the game, but maybe make it a cert for the Prowler/Vanguard/Lightning?

Adding realism to. 2-axis stabilized guns is 60's tech, and we can presume it doesn't get worse over time.

[Illtempered]

The Vulcan doesn't really need looked at.

The game doesn't need to be watered down.
Balance by mediocrity isn't fun.

THIS!

...and neither does the Mag. I have no problem as HA killing tanks on any empire. Just get a buddy or two with AV and they're toast.

As far as the tank battles go, all the MBT's have their strengths and weaknesses. The Mag is disadvantaged when it's main cannon isn't upgraded, or it only has a driver. One nub can hop in a Prowler or Vanguard and do significantly more damage on the battlefield with stock weapons. When the Mag has a Saron on top with a decent gunner....yeah watch out. Seems like it's working as intended.

[innociv]

Yeah I agree the Mag doesn't really need direct nerfs.

The tanks main cannons need more velocity so it's easier to hit a strafing mag.

If I had a 300m/s AP round I could hit strafing mags almost as easy as they hit others with the Saron instead of it being a night and day difference.

But.. saying any nub can hop into a Vanguard or Prowler and do more is silly. The Magrider is by far the best for someone new, it's much easier to use, and you don't need 2/2 to switch seats and fire the Saron.

[Figment]

It's not hard to understand that if you can strafe with a stable weaponsplatform while aiming, you will get hit less and hit more yourself than your opponents who cannot and still cannot afford to turn their sides and use their turret advantage because they'll take more damage doing that. And since Mags will die less due to the above, they will live longer and get more kills individually as well.

On top of that, it's likely Eisa, being almost fully purple 90% of the time as determined by continent layout and flows, creates advantageous stats for Magriders by Esamir being full of them all the time.


Had they designed driver/gunners like in PS1 and copied the balance, this would never have been the case btw. Oh and for the record:

http://wiki.planetsidesyndicate.com/index.php?title=Vehicle_Armor

^ Check that out.

[Sifer2]

The problem with the Mag is it's strengths are by far the most desirable to have. The proper way to tank is PS2 is to sit far away an snipe stuff an move into cover to repair as necessary. Magrider is best at that.

The proper way to fight tanks is keep your front armor facing them an move a bit between shots to dodge return fire. Mag is also best at that. And its AV turret is ridiculously good.


What really annoys me about Higby's post is he acts like the Vanguard needs a buff but the Prowler doesn't. I don't get this at all. Since on the contrary the Prowler is the opposite of the Magrider. Worst at long range. And worst in a tank vs tank engagement unless its so close that the HA's are killing you anyway. The Vanguard is better just by having a worthwhile special ability alone with the shield. Where as Lockdown is garbage. If Higby's statement is based purely on kill stats he is probably ignoring how Prowlers get a lot of Infantry kills due to the double shot. It's their only strength an they underperform in every other area that matters.

[Illtempered]

Yeah I agree the Mag doesn't really need direct nerfs.


But.. saying any nub can hop into a Vanguard or Prowler and do more is silly. The Magrider is by far the best for someone new, it's much easier to use, and you don't need 2/2 to switch seats and fire the Saron.

You're silly

[Rothnang]

Magriders are do not have way higher kill rates than the other 2 tanks because Vanu players are better and smarter than the other 2 factions.
Its because the tanks are either better or easier to use.

Yes, they are easier to use, that's exactly the point I've been making over and over and over.

That's why I think that nerfing the Magrider to lower its effective ceiling is the wrong way to go, because reducing the potential power ceiling for the vehicle to make up for it being easy to use just means that in a fight between high end players that vehicle has no place.


Peoples insistence that strafing directly translates into taking less damage at viable kill ranges is an absolute joke, especially considering that you can get angular velocity while exposing your front armor even with the other tanks. This whole idea that Magriders should just have less armor than other tanks to make up for that is completely stupid. Let's say Magriders take 1 less shot from the front to kill than all other tanks, then you have to always drive a Magrider under the assumption that you need to either dodge at least one shot during a fight with another tank, or your opponent has to screw up armor angles. If neither one happens because your opponent is skilled enough not to let them happen you just lose by default.

[innociv]

Yeah, the Magrider needs a nerf that affects it mostly for the bottom 95% of players, but not the top 5% much.
I think that'd be by making it not ignore every bump on the ground that the others have to deal with. :/

Just give AP rounds 300m/s velocity and they can better hit, assuming they can aim, mags that are far away.

[Shamrock]

This is welcome news! plz don't nerf our front armour :(

[Chewy]

Yes, they are easier to use, that's exactly the point I've been making over and over and over.

That's why I think that nerfing the Magrider to lower its effective ceiling is the wrong way to go, because reducing the potential power ceiling for the vehicle to make up for it being easy to use just means that in a fight between high end players that vehicle has no place.


Peoples insistence that strafing directly translates into taking less damage at viable kill ranges is an absolute joke, especially considering that you can get angular velocity while exposing your front armor even with the other tanks. This whole idea that Magriders should just have less armor than other tanks to make up for that is completely stupid. Let's say Magriders take 1 less shot from the front to kill than all other tanks, then you have to always drive a Magrider under the assumption that you need to either dodge at least one shot during a fight with another tank, or your opponent has to screw up armor angles. If neither one happens because your opponent is skilled enough not to let them happen you just lose by default.

The ability to strafe DOES equal to taking less damage with higher player skill. Mags have FAR greater potential than the other tanks for that alone. A skilled Mag driver has 8 directions ( WASD and any combo of them) he/she can move at any moment and a skilled Van/Prow driver has 2 (WS). Think about that. It not only makes the Mag an easier tank to learn but gives it a massive edge once player skill is added.

Lets look at a 1v1 tank fight. At range, the person in a Mag has 3 options to land a shot on target. After seeing the direction of the other tanks body he aims for one of 3 points. At the tank or to it's front or back path. A Van or Prow doesn't need to see a Mags direction but has to pick one of 9 attack points. The Mag itself the front, back, left ,right, front left, front right, back left, or back right. That's HUGE when skill is added. Fuck, it's an advantage bigger than the damned barn both are shooting at!

Now granted the closer the fight gets the less of an advantage strafing is. But it never removes it for never having to show side or back armor at any time unless you want to. A nice thing indeed when it makes choosing what armor to cert into a moot question.

[innociv]

Nerfing front armor won't do anything when they're still unhittable at 500m when their Saron can hit others at 500m fine.

And it's not like a big buff like 300m/s while still having drop is going to make shells a gauranteed hit either, people will still have to aim.

I'm probably the best Vanguard playing this, and I don't think the Vanguard needs a special velocity bonus over the other's tanks(except for the Railgun, that's special), it's that everyone needs their AP speed increased as AP isn't beneficial enough over HEAT right now, especially when Magriders can still easily dodge them 300-500m out as if it's still a standard shell.

My Vanguard is getting hit by Saron's no matter what, I should be able to hit back.
The ability to strafe DOES equal to taking less damage with higher player skill. Mags have FAR greater potential than the other tanks for that alone. A skilled Mag driver has 8 directions ( WASD and any combo of them) he/she can move at any moment and a skilled Van/Prow driver has 2 (WS).
But here's the thing: it doesn't take weeks to master this A+D skill in the Magriders. It takes 5 minutes. It's easier, not harder. It doesn't increase the skill cap.
On the other hand, it takes weeks to memorize the terrain in areas to act as a human stabilizer for your gun and practice hitting strafing magriders.

[almalino]

Lets look at a 1v1 tank fight. At range, the person in a Mag has 3 options to land a shot on target. After seeing the direction of the other tanks body he aims for one of 3 points. At the tank or to it's front or back path. A Van or Prow doesn't need to see a Mags direction but has to pick one of 9 attack points. The Mag itself the front, back, left ,right, front left, front right, back left, or back right. That's HUGE when skill is added. Fuck, it's an advantage bigger than the damned barn both are shooting at!

Exactly. 3 vs 9 attack point is like 3x differnece in skill and luck is needed to win agains a Magrider.

[innociv]

Not to mention at over 350m the Magrider has plenty of time to actively avoid the shell. Not so easy in a Vanguard unless you're hulled down, but the map designers didn't seem to take hull down into account much as well as the turret depression rates being absurdly bad.

It should be a top priority, to me, to have some sort of dynamic turret depression so that you can pretty much lay your gun flat to the hull ahead. Real life tanks have this.
In PS2, the turret depression rate is set to make sure your gun doesn't clip the front corners of your tank, which leaves them raised up 5 or more degrees higher at the front and center than they should be. The gun should depress more when aiming ahead, or to the sides, than the corners. This should be REALLY simple. You're just grabbing the 2d vector of the gun turret, and adjusting the max depression based on whether it'd be near those corners or not.

It's like a 30 minute change that'd make the game so much better. =[ Just arctangent, see if that's near 30 or -30, wherever the corner of the tank is, and smooth that max depression up/down from there. Pleasepleasepleasepleasepleaseplease.

[Assist]

Not to mention at over 350m the Magrider has plenty of time to actively avoid the shell.

This keeps being repeated and it's really making me wonder wtf some of you guys do. You do realize that your main gun and your vehicle movement are independant unlike the Magrider?
You want to know how to avoid long distance shots from a Magrider? You move the same way your infantry character would. Point your tracks perpendicular to the Magrider and push the W and S button. I really don't get why this keeps being brought up like Vanguards/Prowlers are at some huge disadvantage at long range.

You can avoid long distance shots the same way the Magrider can at those distances. The only advantage the Magrider has there is our Magburner, but Vanguard gets the shield. If you're talking about 1 on 1 fights, the Magrider doesn't really have any advantage over the other tanks. If you want to beat a Magrider everytime, ram right into them. If you want to beat a Magrider at range, don't chase them. Make them come to you.

Movement of the Magrider is not an issue, IMO. The Vanguard needs to get rid of that horrible delay when it starts accelerating.(seriously, a dumptruck gets up to speed faster)

[Methonius]

I think if they want to get serious about fixing the balance between vs and nc/tr tanks they should start by making the side armor for nc/tr tanks the same as their front. This allows the tracked tanks to at least somewhat match the magrider in manuverability while keeping the vanu tank distinct and unique. The idea I think should be to bring the TR and NC up to the vanu's level. If this is not enough then add a proper suspension to the vanguard and prowler making it easier to aim.

I agree, they should try to do something to bring the other tanks in line with the mag by just improving the prowler and vanguard in some way not nerfing. Buffing is always the better way to go. Maybe start with giving the prowler and vanguard more traction going up hills and give them stabilization would bring them much more in line with the mag.

[Chewy]

This keeps being repeated and it's really making me wonder wtf some of you guys do. You do realize that your main gun and your vehicle movement are independant unlike the Magrider?
You want to know how to avoid long distance shots from a Magrider? You move the same way your infantry character would. Point your tracks perpendicular to the Magrider and push the W and S button. I really don't get why this keeps being brought up like Vanguards/Prowlers are at some huge disadvantage at long range.

You can avoid long distance shots the same way the Magrider can at those distances. The only advantage the Magrider has there is our Magburner, but Vanguard gets the shield. If you're talking about 1 on 1 fights, the Magrider doesn't really have any advantage over the other tanks. If you want to beat a Magrider everytime, ram right into them. If you want to beat a Magrider at range, don't chase them. Make them come to you.

Movement of the Magrider is not an issue, IMO. The Vanguard needs to get rid of that horrible delay when it starts accelerating.(seriously, a dumptruck gets up to speed faster)

No matter how you place a Van or Prow it will never be able to avoid shots like a Mag. NEVER. Not as long as both of them are limited to only 2 possible paths, both of who are easy to see for the enemy and can be adjusted for with little effort. There's also the fact that doing so will expose side armor with a 50/50 chance of mooning another enemy on the same front line as the Mag you're dealing with.

Also why the hell would a Mag follow a target? Once a Mag is up on a hill, where little other armors can get to, he's already in a place that can see his objective and do his job of shelling the area. Why would he leave a position that serves him best to chase something in the distance that ran off and is no longer a threat?

In 1v1 Mags are great at range and everything else has to play their game in order move up or fend them off. But now lets look at 2v2. Now the Mags have 2 targets and 6 attack points to choose while Vans and Prows have 18 attack points. Say if both Vans focus on one Mag, that's 2/9 attack points they can use. A 22% chance at hitting a ranged Mag. One Van could force a move on the Mag to up those numbers yes, but. If 2 Mags focus on one Van/Prow that's 2/3 of attack points. A 66% chance of a hit without tactics!

Once more, the closer the tanks are the lower the effectiveness of strafing. YET there's more than just adding tactics and bigger battles to this topic. There's the fact that Mags don't have to commit to moving in one direction when backing up. NO smart Mag driver will take on another tank at close distances. He will back up all he can to add distance and make the fight suited to a Mags strengths. While doing so a Mag STILL has 5 options of movement when in full reverse (Back, back right, back left, left , right) without having to expose more than the front armor and give up firing. A Van or Prow has 3 at any moment back, back turning right, and back turning left. Although that is 3 movements 2 of them are turning versions of back. Still fixed to the tanks body and easy to see as well as to account for with the added affect of exposing at least side armor. (Yes, the risk of running into something is there, but the mini-map does a damn good job at showing rocks and trees and the 3rd person view helps a LOT.)



One last thing I'll say in this post, as it is getting long, is that everything I typed can and has been done by idiots Im an idiot and Im thinking of this. No telling what the experts can do.

[Naturaliensamml]

All this whining is crap.

At the end of it all the numbers show mag riders are way more successful on the battlefield than the other 2 tanks.
Thats why it is being nerfed.

So the NC MAX is op, too?

I mean every noob can own with it and it is significantly stronger than any other max (two full weapons instead of two half weapons).´

And now saying that "he cannot do anything beyond 50 meters distance" is crap because thats just like the perfect example of the magrider vs 2 HA. If you dare to face any of the other two and they do not completely lack any basic skills the one in your back can perfectly kill you. And this works in almost any situation (tanks etc.)

The magrider is also very slow and a prowler going in for the kill will not see it slide away backwards like many put it here.
Not mentioning that the AP rounds of the vanguard still have splash damage...

[ChipMHazard]

The magrider is also very slow and a prowler going in for the kill will not see it slide away backwards like many put it here.
Not mentioning that the AP rounds of the vanguard still have splash damage...

:confused::confused::confused:

The Magrider is what now? It's the slowest, last time I checked, but it's not slow. There isn't enough of a speed difference between the three for it to actually matter.
The Vanguard AP deals 500 indirect dmg with a splash of 4, according to the spreadsheet, I don't really the see the relevance of that to be honest.

[Chris Talon]

Finally a (possible) answer to a problem that has been discussed into the ground, dug out again, etc, etc.

Yes - in my opinion the Magrider is too powerful
> This is because of the unique abilities it posesses, like always facing your frontal armor towards the enemy, strafing shots (which is a dealbreaker at long range duels), no problems with ruining your ain over grass bumps (which is bigger than you think - this ability alone lets you actually move while you shoot, which is a difficult prospect with other tanks). Oh, and having an insanely overpowered secondary gun also doesn't help balancing.

However, I think this overpower stems from the fact that SOE really wanted to do something new with this tank. Instead of just making it a bit faster/harder/more accurate they went for actually making it unique in its abilities and fighting style - a fact that should be applauded.

What we will hopefully see now is an actual completion of this new and unique concept. A tank that relies on its mobility and not on its armor - which, according to something I read, is actually supposed to be weaker, because of the antigrav modules being unable to hold it up otherwise.

I think we will be seing similar adjustments to other vanu weapons/vehicles soon - again, this is to be seen more as a completion of design and not just a blatant nerf. SOE had enough time to look at vanu equipment performance and they probably realized that the unique advantages are good, but the unique disadvantages aren't - and after all, a good concept needs both of them.

[nurizeko]

Some people say the prowler is crap because "No tank should have to rely on flanking or getting close up to be effective and getting flanked sucks for ALL tanks... This is like saying "He's got a sniper rifle and I've got a shotgun I shouldn't have to move up to kill him."

No, it's like saying you are given the role of long range sniping but only supplied with an SMG/shotgun.


The Prowler is a MBT, it should function like a MBT.

That means it should be able to compete at the ranges that Vanguard and Magrider (it's primary opponents) operate at.

The Prowler has no turret and barrel stabilization, it's shell arc is nuts, it can't handle terrain, and it's a big fat target to boot.

You could at least cite the Sherman doctrine (it's a shoddy medium tank but it's it can be produced en masse so that's our advantage.
Unfortunately that doesn't make tankers feel any better about an inferior tank that needs to flank and close before it can effectively engage while enemy tanks can sit back and fire frontally.

Plus the TR are no more numerically superior than other factions and Planetside is set in a post-scarcity world so 'swarming' doesn't really come into it.


I'll take a slight less shell arc, some improvement to terrain handling, and gun stabilization, that should make the Prowler competitive. It's a game set in the future, daft to imagine Vanu can harness anti-gravity technology for a heavy tank but the TR can't get treads, computer assisted stabilization and high velocity rounds down.

[Rothnang]

People still don't seem to understand that a tank battle that's waged at such extreme distances that people can actively dodge your shells is not going to be won by Magriders or anyone unless their opponents just flat out refuse to take cover and repair when appropriate.

I just have yet to see how this magical long range dodging ability of the Magrider translates into being able to win what should be a stalemate until someone outflanks the other side. I've been in hundreds of battles just like that, and I've never seen the Vanu just take the field because their tanks can dodge.

Also one thing that people frequently underestimate about the other tanks is how much better engineers can repair them if they know which directions the tanks will move, and they have good cover behind the tank. With a Magrider trying to repair it is a crapshoot, you have no idea if its going to run you over, and especially if its a fully upgraded Magrider the tank hovers over your head while you're exposed to fire.

[Nonumis]

Someone asked me what the VS got as an empire advantage, that tweet was an answer to that question - not a declaration of impending nerfs.

IF we change the Magrider it wouldn't be any sort of change to it's maneuverability at all, that's what they're SUPPOSED to do.

We are considering some MBT changes though, including potentially

Removing or reducing magrider front armor since Magriders always have their front facing the things they're fighting, so the front armor bonus scales a bit better for them compared to the other two tanks.

Increasing the muzzle velocity for Vanguard cannons, this would help them be more effective at standoff ranges vs the other tanks, especially the Magrider, and it fits with the NC MO.

Prowlers are only performing very, very slightly below magriders in general right now, so we think they're probably alright, but if anything they might get a minor damage increase to AP and HEAT rounds.

We're still playing with these changes internally, so it's not by any means a done deal.

No need to nerf Magrider, the only thing need to be done - give cannon stabilization to other empires MBT!

[Rothnang]

And removing the butter from the tank tracks would be nice also.

[Chris Talon]

@ Rothnang :

You of course have a point here, however, you are referring to clever gameplay and good teamwork - both of which are completely unrelated to the actual tanks.

Yes, the side with better engineers will probably win (if the battle is evenly matched otherwise) and a flanking strike will cripple any tank spearhead, regardless of which tanks it consists of.

The point is, if the battle is perfectly even, the Magrider brigade will usually win, because of the advantages I mentioned before. I think we at least can all agree about the armor which is way too strong on the magrider - as I said, you should pay a price for being an antigrav vehicle.

[Rothnang]

I don't think the Magrider's armor is too strong, I think if you nerf it from being equivalent to other tanks the Magrider becomes irrelevant in high level play, because really good tankers do not miss a Magrider at killing ranges, completely regardless of whether it can dodge or not.

[AnamNantom]

Let this be a Lesson to all the people who claim that Magriders are not OP.

Glad you guys are taking a Buff-not-nerf approach and are trying to see the problem from as many sides as possible.:)

Buff not nerf is fine. But, I got front armor on my mag for the very reason that I have to face the enemy to fire on them, and so I'll get hit more on the front.

Don't you take away my front armor mister, or I'll have to shoot, then turn to the side with the armor! :P

[AnamNantom]

@ Rothnang :

You of course have a point here, however, you are referring to clever gameplay and good teamwork - both of which are completely unrelated to the actual tanks.

Yes, the side with better engineers will probably win (if the battle is evenly matched otherwise) and a flanking strike will cripple any tank spearhead, regardless of which tanks it consists of.

The point is, if the battle is perfectly even, the Magrider brigade will usually win, because of the advantages I mentioned before. I think we at least can all agree about the armor which is way too strong on the magrider - as I said, you should pay a price for being an antigrav vehicle.

VS = superior tech, therefore the mobility. Also we have less armor because of weight limits to keep our mags up.

[Chris Talon]

But how can you think the armor is not too strong ? - And I don't mind if you say "because I am driving that thing and I don't want it to get weaker" - that is kinda normal.

Just think of it, you are driving a hovering tank, you have the advantage of mobility, you don't have to worry about bumps on the ground, you can keep your front towards the enemy and strafe in and out of cover - on the other hand you have the other extreme of the vanguard, a massive, heavy battle tank that is huge, slow and cumbersome - should you really have even a comparable armor ?

[ChipMHazard]

VS = superior tech, therefore the mobility. Also we have less armor because of weight limits to keep our mags up.

Last time I checked all of the MBTs have the same amount of health and armor, except for the Vanguard which has stronger front armor.

[AnamNantom]

THIS!

...and neither does the Mag. I have no problem as HA killing tanks on any empire. Just get a buddy or two with AV and they're toast.

As far as the tank battles go, all the MBT's have their strengths and weaknesses. The Mag is disadvantaged when it's main cannon isn't upgraded, or it only has a driver. One nub can hop in a Prowler or Vanguard and do significantly more damage on the battlefield with stock weapons. When the Mag has a Saron on top with a decent gunner....yeah watch out. Seems like it's working as intended.

There you go.

[AnamNantom]

Last time I checked all of the MBTs have the same amount of health and armor, except for the Vanguard which has stronger front armor.

Well I read something explaining this, can't recall where. That it's slightly less and/or our upgraded armor is less.

Regardless, I enjoy being Vanu and enjoy the non-conventional weapons we have :)

[Naturaliensamml]

:confused::confused::confused:

The Magrider is what now? It's the slowest, last time I checked, but it's not slow. There isn't enough of a speed difference between the three for it to actually matter.
The Vanguard AP deals 500 indirect dmg with a splash of 4, according to the spreadsheet, I don't really the see the relevance of that to be honest.

A vanilla prowler does 60kph forward and a magrider does 42 kph backwards. Not even mentioning that the lack of a mirror means that the terrain shake is going to wreak havoc on your aim. And some slopes are deadly and you get stuck and can't retreat.
All those stories of the mighty magrider backdriving your prowler while he picks you off like nothing are good forum stories, indeed.


Vanguards are viable with AP ammo. All other tanks are not.

[Rothnang]

The Prowler actually does the most damage out of all the tanks up close, it just is the worst of the tanks at long range. It does best when you're... prowling!

I find the Prowler a little harder to drive than the other turreted tanks because it's difficult to see where your hull is pointed in the turret.

[ChipMHazard]

A vanilla prowler does 60kph forward and a magrider does 42 kph backwards. Not even mentioning that the lack of a mirror means that the terrain shake is going to wreak havoc on your aim. And some slopes are deadly and you get stuck and can't retreat.
All those stories of the mighty magrider backdriving your prowler while he picks you off like nothing are good forum stories, indeed.

Vanguards are viable with AP ammo. All other tanks are not.

So? That doesn't make the Magrider very slow. You can also increase your speed while driving backwards by also strafing in a direction.
So the stories are indeed true when trying to close the distance in a long range engagement.

How did you come to that conclusion? Because it deals 500 in splash damage? All AP variants are viable.

The Prowler actually does the most damage out of all the tanks up close, it just is the worst of the tanks at long range. It does best when you're... prowling!

I find the Prowler a little harder to drive than the other turreted tanks because it's difficult to see where your hull is pointed in the turret.

Last time I checked both the Prowler, if both shots hit, and Vanguard deal the same damage. The Prowler does have the highest DPS, in theory.

Prowling? Really? This isn't Monty Python and sadly Prowlers can't pounce on its foes like the killer cars.

[Naturaliensamml]

So? That doesn't make the Magrider very, very slow. You can also increase your speed while driving backwards by also strafing in a direction.
So the stories are indeed true when trying to close the distance in a long range engagement.


So now I do not get away in a straight line from you but in about a 30° angle? Or do I turn away from you so I cannot hit you anymore? Magriders can only shoot the direction they directly face...


How did you come to that conclusion? Because it deals 500 in splash damage? All AP variants are viable.


4 meters is enough for close misses or hitting targets like flashes or even infantry. 1 meter isnt.


Last time I checked both the Prowler, if both shots hit, and Vanguard deal the same damage. The Prowler does have the highest DPS, in theory.

Prowling? Really? This isn't Monty Python and sadly Prowlers can't pounce on its foes like the killer cars.


You are right here. Yet the prowler has a faster reload speed. So its DPS are about 14% higher than those of the vanguard. And 20% higher than those of a magrider.
Doesn't sound like plain theory to me.

[ChipMHazard]

So now I do not get away in a straight line from you but in about a 30° angle? Or do I turn away from you so I cannot hit you anymore? Magriders can only shoot the direction they directly face...



4 meters is enough for close misses or hitting targets like flashes or even infantry. 1 meter isnt.




You are right here. Yet the prowler has a faster reload speed. So its DPS are about 14% higher than those of the vanguard. And 20% higher than those of a magrider.
Doesn't sound like plain theory to me.

I have no idea how much of an angle that it turns you when doing that nor how much aiming is impaired. You could try it and see just hot it works. I know only that it can be done.

So? 500 damage out of a 8000hp pool isn't going to be what wins a fair fight.

Again only in theory. You have to realign your arim after each round fired so your reload time is punished, since you won't start reloading before both rounds have been fired. The dreaded recoil that's been brought up so many times.
This is also something that makes it easier for a Magrider, which is pulling back, to take out an advancing Prowler going all out... The lack of any form of stabilizer. The Magrider doesn't suffer as much from bumpy terrain as the Vanguard and Prowler does.

[ShadetheDruid]

The Magrider doesn't suffer as much from bumpy terrain as the Vanguard and Prowler does.

The poor Lightning always gets left out. :(

I'd actually argue that the Lightning suffers more from the lack of stabilisation, since speed and mobility plus lack of armour means Lightnings need to be constantly on the move to survive.

[Naturaliensamml]

I have no idea how much of an angle that it turns you when doing that nor how much aiming is impaired. You could try it and see just hot it works. I know only that it can be done.

So? 500 damage out of a 8000hp pool isn't going to be what wins a fair fight.

Again only in theory. You have to realign your arim after each round fired so your reload time is punished, since you won't start reloading before both rounds have been fired. The dreaded recoil that's been brought up so many times.
This is also something that makes it easier for a Magrider, which is pulling back, to take out an advancing Prowler going all out... The lack of any form of stabilizer. The Magrider doesn't suffer as much from bumpy terrain as the Vanguard and Prowler does.

So you say that it may be possible but have no idea if it is. Forum knowledge for the win. Good thing to balance the game after.
So a few tanks hammering in 500 damage are worthless.
DPS are DPS. If you miss every so shot you still deal as much damage as the others but can deal more if you are close or skilled. Sounds fair to me.

[ChipMHazard]

So you say that it may be possible but have no idea if it is. Forum knowledge for the win. Good thing to balance the game after.

So a few tanks hammering in 500 damage are worthless.

DPS are DPS. If you miss every so shot you still deal as much damage as the others but can deal more if you are close or skilled. Sounds fair to me.

If it's possible to increase your backward driving speed by also strafing? Yes I do know that's possibe. How well you can aim while doing so, no idea. I haven't played the game since well just check my signature.

Here's the video where I saw it. It would seem like the player would still be able to aim while doing this. Judge for yourself.
Planetside 2 Magrider top speed and acceleration curve - YouTube

Worthless? No. Just not enough to warrant your comment that it's what makes it the only viable AP choice.

Uhm no. Practical experience certainly trumps what it's supposed to be doing on paper. How can you deal as much damage if you're missing your shots, or just one shot out of two?
I am rather certain that they didn't actually know that the recoil would have such a significant effect on the Prowler. Not that they have admitted to that, but it's the main complaint.

The poor Lightning always gets left out. :(

I'd actually argue that the Lightning suffers more from the lack of stabilisation, since speed and mobility plus lack of armour means Lightnings need to be constantly on the move to survive.

Heh aye. It was certainly an experience chasing down enemy sundies at full speed over the plains of Amerish.

[Naturaliensamml]

If it's possible to increase your backward driving speed by also strafing? Yes I do know that's possibe. How well you can aim while doing so, no idea. I haven't played the game since well just check my signature.

Here's the video where I saw it. It would seem like the player would still be able to aim while doing this. Judge for yourself.
Planetside 2 Magrider top speed and acceleration curve - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZxctILncNc)

Worthless? No. Just not enough to warrant your comment that it's what makes it the only viable AP choice.

Uhm no. Practical experience certainly trumps what it's supposed to be doing on paper. How can you deal as much damage if you're missing your shots, or just one shot out of two?
I am rather certain that they didn't actually know that the recoil would have such a significant effect on the Prowler. Not that they have admitted to that, but it's the main complaint.


Ok because it seems to be rather hard for you to connect forum knowledge to gameplay I made a ms paint image for you

http://www10.pic-upload.de/27.01.13/yatjcto3we1l.png

So with your superior tactic we increased the speed from 42 to 47.8.
But you might notice where the magrider is facing. He is exposing his weaker side armor. And even worse his turret is sticking out in the front and cannot turn. So he can't fire. If he wants to do that he has to turn around every few seconds changing his vector and back.

This all sounds... weird to me. But whatever suits you.


The recoil is always the same. You could say that you do not hit with a rifle because it has recoil. You have to compensate it manually and shoot again. Your DPS is still higher. Probably not if you are really bad at compensating recoil.

[ChipMHazard]

Ok because it seems to be rather hard for you to connect forum knowledge to gameplay I made a ms paint image for you

The recoil is always the same. You could say that you do not hit with a rifle because it has recoil. You have to compensate it manually and shoot again. Your DPS is still higher. Probably not if you are really bad at compensating recoil.

Well it seems like you don't understand it either...
From what I've seen you don't need to angle yourself like that to get the speed buff from also strafing. So... Yeah... There's that.... I'm awed by your mastery of paint though, however much a waste of time it ended up being.
You should also note that I never claimed that a Magrider was able to back up just as fast as a Prowler driving forward, just that the Magrider would be able to back up in order to get as much range as possible on the Prowler while still firing on it. This was originally in reference to the suggestion that the Prowler could simply drive forward to close the gab, obviously the Magrider wouldn't just stand still and wait.

If your example is referring to bolt-action rifles then it's not the same thing. It would be the same thing if you used a double-barreld shotgun as an example.

Of course you have to compensate after each round fired, every MBT has to do that.
However...
Everytime you fire the first barrel you have to compensate before you fire the second barrel. Other MBTS don't have to hit with both rounds in order to actually deal their full damage. They fire once and then aim again before firing their next round.
It requires more of an effort for a Prowler to hit with both rounds and deal it's maximum damage than it does with either the Vanguard or Magrider.
So again the Prowler has the highest DPS in theory but that's not how it works ingame, at least not enough of the time for players not to complain about it.
There's also the aim jerking that has to be taken into account as that just adds to the difficulty of landing the second round if you're also moving over terrain.
So all in all if you take the time to compensate after firing your first barrel then that means your reloadtime is going to suffer since you won't actually start reloading before both barrels have been fired. If you can fire both of your barrels in quick succession and hit with both of them, then yes the Prowler has the highest DPS.

[bpostal]

The Prowler just needs to stop doing that stupid little 'turn the wrong way when stopped or going backwards' bullshit. I'd rather just drive a Prowler as a HA, wait for the stupid fucking thing to almost blow up or start on fire, and jump out. Fuck using it as an actual weapons platform.

[Cyridius]

Higby doesn't play the fucking game at all.

Why?

Because the Magrider isn't nerfed yet, and the Prowler is a piece of shit. Anyone who's played this game for more than 24 hours and has more than a quarter of a brain and isn't one of you ******* living in a Magrider using HE and Sarons knows that when an entire faction's primary strategy is to pull Main Battle Tanks, and this is consistent across every single server, regardless of organization, that there is an issue.

[Naturaliensamml]

Well it seems like you don't understand it either...
From what I've seen you don't need to angle yourself like that to get the speed buff from also strafing. So... Yeah... There's that.... I'm awed by your mastery of paint though, however much a waste of time it ended up being.


So you have two velocities that happen to be in a 90° angle to each other (forward and sideward) and you tell me that you do not have to move in an angle?
Are you kidding me? This is a serious question.

[ChipMHazard]

So you have two velocities that happen to be in a 90° angle to each other (forward and sideward) and you tell me that you do not have to move in an angle?
Are you kidding me? This is a serious question.

No.... Just not the angle, circa 30 degree, that you keep bringing up as the angle that you have to be in in order to get the strafe speed bonus when driving backwards.
Try looking at the video I posted, does that look like a 30 degree angle to you? To me it looks like you would be able to strafe backwards and still be able to fire at a target in front of you without too much difficulty. But that's just a guess on my part as I haven't tried doing it ingame.

[Merzun]

If it's possible to increase your backward driving speed by also strafing? Yes I do know that's possibe. How well you can aim while doing so, no idea. I haven't played the game since well just check my signature.

Here's the video where I saw it. It would seem like the player would still be able to aim while doing this. Judge for yourself.
Planetside 2 Magrider top speed and acceleration curve - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZxctILncNc)



Didn't know you could do that. Just tested it myself. You even don't lose much speed switching from forward/left to forward/right and backwards/left to backwards/right. Also the angle you can compensate your aim for while strafing without losing speed is pretty big.

Magrider Strafing

While I think Mags need a nerf I think it should not be done with nerfing their maneuverability at least not by much because that is what defines them. Though something has to be done cause watermaps aren't even out yet.

[ChipMHazard]

Didn't know you could do that. Just tested it myself. You even don't lose much speed switching from forward/left to forward/right and backwards/left to backwards/right. Also the angle you can compensate your aim for while strafing without losing speed is pretty big.

Magrider Strafing (http://youtu.be/Q96GlH7A4mg)

While I think Mags need a nerf I think it should not be done with nerfing their maneuverability at least not by much because that is what defines them. Though something has to be done cause watermaps aren't even out yet.

Thanks for confirming it and I agree they shouldn't nerf the Magrider's mobility, good thing Higby made it clear that they won't:D

[Ghoest9]

Higby doesn't play the fucking game at all.

Why?

Because the Magrider isn't nerfed yet, and the Prowler is a piece of shit. Anyone who's played this game for more than 24 hours and has more than a quarter of a brain and isn't one of you ******* living in a Magrider using HE and Sarons knows that when an entire faction's primary strategy is to pull Main Battle Tanks, and this is consistent across every single server, regardless of organization, that there is an issue.

this is true

[innociv]

The ability to strafe DOES equal to taking less damage with higher player skill. Mags have FAR greater potential than the other tanks for that alone. A skilled Mag driver has 8 directions ( WASD and any combo of them) he/she can move at any moment and a skilled Van/Prow driver has 2 (WS). Think about that. It not only makes the Mag an easier tank to learn but gives it a massive edge once player skill is added.


You should look at the shots I make before questioning my ability to hit moving targets. =/

At 350m it has 1.55s to get out of the way of an AP shell, which is PLENTY to change strafing direction and dodge it, especially with Rival.

I probably have the best aim with tanks of anyone that plays this. If I can't hit Mags at 400+m with AP, then no one is unless that Mag just isn't seeing the shots coming and trying to dodge them.

If you land a shot that far away on the Mag, it's because they didn't even try to dodge it, because their strafe acceleration rate and the time it takes for the round to hit is plenty to move out of the way.

The Vanguard has a weird gearing issue where it can't get moving to dodge a shot fast enough, along with having to turn its huge side in order to have an angle to move out of the way. Though, yeah you can do that tapping exploit to ignore the gears at least.

It's weird that the MAgrider gets a 300m/s gun that's the easiest to hit with, while it's also the hardest to hit. If all AP guns were 300m/s this wouldn't be an issue.

[Cyridius]

I also think this is a huge part of the difference in performance. I know it would be taking a bit of the physics and realism out of the game, but maybe make it a cert for the Prowler/Vanguard/Lightning?

No it doesn't fucking take away from realism. What we have now is as unrealistic as it gets. You do realise tanks in real life have a stable firing platform even when moving, right?


Thanks for the reply.

I don't know that the Prowler needs a damage buff, it seems to outperform the Magrider in damage and certainly does more damage with comparable setups(VPC/Saron vs. HE/Vulcan). The Vulcan top gun really needs to be looked at, IMO.



And no, the Prowler doesn't need a damage buff, it needs a rear armour buff.

"Oh, I'll just get behind these 2 Magriders and hit the rear armour!"*BOOM BOOM*

"Oh shit they've turned around, I can use my superior speed to get aw-"*dies*

2 Rear hits.

The Prowler's most gigantic fucking weakness, after how stupidly unstable it is, is the gigantic frame it has. It. Is. HUGE. Especially at the rear armour.

And you have to be stupider than a fucking tree stump to genuinely think the Prowler outperforms any tank at anything lol. I think maybe it outperforms the Vanguard at infantry farming.

And FYI, the Vulkan's perfectly balanced. The Saron does the same DPS at longer range with no bullet drop or large cone of fire. Problem?

[Gatekeeper]

The poor Lightning always gets left out. :(

I'd actually argue that the Lightning suffers more from the lack of stabilisation, since speed and mobility plus lack of armour means Lightnings need to be constantly on the move to survive.

This.

As long as turret stabilisation applies to the mag's gunner weapons as well as tank main cannons, then I'd have no objection to it being added across the board - should give a small buff to the Van/Prowler/Lightning vs the Mag, and be less annoying for everyone.

Another Lightning issue is that it suffers badly from the lack of traction on hills combined with its very long wheel-base - not only does it slip and slide about and fail to climb a lot of slopes, it also tends to get jammed across dips or stuck in ravines. Not a huge balance issue, but very very annoying.

Don't know whether the Van/Prowler suffer to the same extent, since I've not tried them, anyone care to comment?

Personally I'd be happy to see an across the board increase in tracked-tank traction on hills, or a mild nerf to Mag's climbing ability to bring it more level with the rest.

[ShadetheDruid]

Personally I'd be happy to see an across the board increase in tracked-tank traction on hills, or a mild nerf to Mag's climbing ability to bring it more level with the rest.

General traction, plus stopping that annoying very slowly sliding thing the tracked tanks do when "stationary". They need to make it so if you're at 0 KPH, the tank "glues" itself to the terrain (within reason obviously, no glueing yourself to ridiculous inclines).

At the minute, you veerrryyy slowly slide on anything other than a 100% flat surface to the point where you have to re-establish aim after every shot because your tank moved half an inch or so.

[DarkSentry]

Someone asked me what the VS got as an empire advantage, that tweet was an answer to that question - not a declaration of impending nerfs.

IF we change the Magrider it wouldn't be any sort of change to it's maneuverability at all, that's what they're SUPPOSED to do.

We are considering some MBT changes though, including potentially

Removing or reducing magrider front armor since Magriders always have their front facing the things they're fighting, so the front armor bonus scales a bit better for them compared to the other two tanks.

Increasing the muzzle velocity for Vanguard cannons, this would help them be more effective at standoff ranges vs the other tanks, especially the Magrider, and it fits with the NC MO.

Prowlers are only performing very, very slightly below magriders in general right now, so we think they're probably alright, but if anything they might get a minor damage increase to AP and HEAT rounds.

We're still playing with these changes internally, so it's not by any means a done deal.

What the tanks need most is some quality of life changes.

Going over terrain shouldn't move the position of the gun unless it would exceed its maximum range of lowest or highest. This means as you roll over a little bump, you gun shouldn't move from where you have it aimed. However, if you went up a cliff and you gun was facing down, it would stay facing down, but since it is exceeding its lowest threshold it is forced to move up. As you go over the hill, and your front end starts to lower, the gun stays at its position until it exceeds the top threshold and is forced down.

This minor change will allow for combat while moving, since right now, tanks basically fight at a stand still long range artillery contest. It is just too hard to aim and account for bumps in the terrain while your target faces you with its front armor and gets much more accurate shots off on you. If you are trying to maneuver while fighting (doesn't apply to mag), you will hit bumps and you will have a much harder time hitting a stationary target while moving.

This one change should bring the other tanks inline with the magrider and no nerfs/buffs should be necessary imo.

The other change I would suggest is to increase the refire time on the prowler. Since the vanguard and the magrider have single shot damage with a long reload time, they do not have to account for recoil. They fire their shot and they are not affected by recoil at all. The prowler however has to fire its 2nd shot under the effects of recoil OR suffer a DPS loss. So the prower has a recoil penalty while the vanguard and magrider do not.

I suggest to change the refire time on the prowler so that it has a long enough delay inbetween shots to not be affected by recoil like the other MBTs. Then something would have to be done to either lower its reload timer or separate its cannons so they reload independently to keep its dps on par with the other MBTs.

[Whiteagle]

Has the switch to the pilot-gunner paradigm ruined that so much, or were the other faction's tanks better in some way than in PS2?
Pretty much this...

I mean, let's face it, unlike other tanks (where aim and movement are controlled separately) or aircraft (which mostly need to move towards the direction they are aiming), the Mag is basically a SUPER Heavy Assault who trades jumping and shields for a speed booster and a 30-some shot CANNON.

It's not hard to understand that if you can strafe with a stable weaponsplatform while aiming, you will get hit less and hit more yourself than your opponents who cannot and still cannot afford to turn their sides and use their turret advantage because they'll take more damage doing that. And since Mags will die less due to the above, they will live longer and get more kills individually as well.
Indeed...

Had they designed driver/gunners like in PS1 and copied the balance, this would never have been the case btw.
This right here is the entire reason for not only the Mag being broken, but also for the unbalance of Armor in general ground combat.

I mean, one-man MBTs are hard enough for Infantry to deal with as is, but then you throw in a super hover-tank that can slide behind cover even faster then you can as an Heavy Assault AND can use splash damage to it's advantage while you're stuck whiffing rockets?

Of course, we can't just switch so that drivers have Secondary guns and NEED gunners for their cannons, because what would we EVER do for the Magriders?:rolleyes:

This keeps being repeated and it's really making me wonder wtf some of you guys do. You do realize that your main gun and your vehicle movement are independant unlike the Magrider?
You want to know how to avoid long distance shots from a Magrider? You move the same way your infantry character would. Point your tracks perpendicular to the Magrider and push the W and S button. I really don't get why this keeps being brought up like Vanguards/Prowlers are at some huge disadvantage at long range.
Ummm, maybe it's because we have to get our hulls perpendicular to the Magrider in the first place?

Unless you advance in an acute zig-zag pattern, you are more then likely going to come up on an enemy Mag hull forward, meaning an extra four or five seconds to reorient.

Sure, a really skilled tanker would break to one side or the other to get perpendicular faster by using his forward momentum, but even then he's still limited to mostly the one dimension of back and forth movement.

In the end, the Roomba tank can still circle strafe (which not only allows it to side-step shots but also change the trajectory needed to hit it) like a BAHSS, while it's tracked brethren are stuck jaunting side to side like a tin duck in a shooting gallery.

Prowling? Really? This isn't Monty Python and sadly Prowlers can't pounce on its foes like the killer cars.
Forget "Lock-down," this is the special ability our tanks really need, hydraulic jump-jacks that LAUNCH THEM INTO THE AIR!

The poor Lightning always gets left out. :(

I'd actually argue that the Lightning suffers more from the lack of stabilisation, since speed and mobility plus lack of armour means Lightnings need to be constantly on the move to survive.
Hell the Lightning gets shafted simply due to the fact that it's SUPPOSE to be THE one-man tank, but then they went and made EVERY tank solo operable...

[Sian]

Prowlers are only performing very, very slightly below magriders in general right now, so we think they're probably alright, but if anything they might get a minor damage increase to AP and HEAT rounds.

We're still playing with these changes internally, so it's not by any means a done deal.


If I could do any one thing to the Prowler, it would be to treat each cannon as a separate weapon as far as reloads go. You fire one cannon, it automatically goes to reload, instead of waiting until both cannons are empty. This really fits with the sustained fire theme of the TR.

[grimey]

I did start a post about having the firing of the cannons seperately like a max unit so you could shoot both at the same time but if they don't allow that seperately reloading cannons would be the next best thing.

[AnamNantom]

Let see the situation Magraider vs Vanguard without upgrades head to head firing to each other at the same time.

Magraider strafe to the side and avoid being hit.
Vanguard cannot do that and must receive the hit in it's front :)

Result is that Vanaguard is damaged and Magrider is not. Profit :) For Magraider.

Yet strafing while shooting is not the easiest thing in the world. Any increase or decline on a hill, bumping objects (other magriders)... all these will take knock our aim off. Sure, we can go over hills and boost and strafe to get out of the way of your gunfire, but it doesn't always work, and it's a bit more difficult to go from defensive actions to offensive actions, based on what I said above.

[Assist]

IF we change the Magrider it wouldn't be any sort of change to it's maneuverability at all, that's what they're SUPPOSED to do.


Magrider: Removed hover length bonus from performance items, reduced muzzle velocity for HRB (300->250).

You my friend, are full of shit. Your idea of 'balanced' tanks means making the Magrider irrelevant compared to the other two tanks. 25% Prowler HEAT damage increase, AND velocity increase? Same with the Vanguard? Meanwhile nerf the Saron ? Come on man, this screams bias.

You need a team to do balance passes, this is a joke.

/nothappy.

[Whiteagle]

You my friend, are full of shit. Your idea of 'balanced' tanks means making the Magrider irrelevant compared to the other two tanks. 25% Prowler HEAT damage increase, AND velocity increase? Same with the Vanguard? Meanwhile nerf the Saron ? Come on man, this screams bias.

You need a team to do balance passes, this is a joke.

/nothappy.
Yes, whine that the Roomba can no longer fly over man-high obstacles and it's second cannon has it's speed dropped by 50, it's like music to our ears!

[Assist]

Yes, whine that the Roomba can no longer fly over man-high obstacles and it's second cannon has it's speed dropped by 50, it's like music to our ears!

It's a HOVER tank. It's supposed to HOVER over obstacles.

The Saron nerf isn't an impact by itself. It is when the other two tanks are getting buffed to 'balance' out the tanks. That's not balance, that's buffing two, nerfing one, when the one was already the worst tank in any 1v1 MBT situation. Explain to me WHY the AP would be buffed for the Vanguard and Prowler and NOT for the Magrider?

[Whiteagle]

It's a HOVER tank. It's supposed to HOVER over obstacles.

The Saron nerf isn't an impact by itself. It is when the other two tanks are getting buffed to 'balance' out the tanks. That's not balance, that's buffing two, nerfing one, when the one was already the worst tank in any 1v1 MBT situation. Explain to me WHY the AP would be buffed for the Vanguard and Prowler and NOT for the Magrider?
Dude, first off, the Vulcan was "adjusted" as well, it now does even damage over it's entire range instead of being a close up murder machine, so it means the NC were the only ones coming out of this with a straight buff.

Second, you must SUCK as using your Roomba if you think it is the worst MBT in the game...
The Vanguard only got HEAT and AP velocity buffs, while the Prowler, THE ACTUAL WORST MAIN BATTLE TANK IN THE GAME, got HEAT and AP damage buffs and a MUCH needed buff to it's Faction special ability.

If you want to run a flying tank so damn bad, maybe you should invest in a Liberator?

[Assist]

Dude, first off, the Vulcan was "adjusted" as well, it now does even damage over it's entire range instead of being a close up murder machine, so it means the NC were the only ones coming out of this with a straight buff.

Second, you must SUCK as using your Roomba if you think it is the worst MBT in the game...
The Vanguard only got HEAT and AP velocity buffs, while the Prowler, THE ACTUAL WORST MAIN BATTLE TANK IN THE GAME, got HEAT and AP damage buffs and a MUCH needed buff to it's Faction special ability.

If you want to run a flying tank so damn bad, maybe you should invest in a Liberator?

I'm without a doubt the worst Magrider driver in the game, I hear it all the time. I also didn't say it was the worst MBT in the game, I said in 1v1 MBT situations it is the worst. The Prowler can run circles around a Magrider and kill it since the Magrider cannot turn that fast and the Vanguard was already the best 1v1 tank in the game. So explain to me again why the AP would be buffed on all but the Magrider?

Apparently you're right about the last part. If I want to play the game at all I have to be in a Liberator, they're the best at every single aspect of the game right now. But who cares about balancing them, right?

edit: Also if you think that Vulcan change was a nerf you've probably never used it. I'll trade my Saron for your Vulcan any day.

[Whiteagle]

I'm without a doubt the worst Magrider driver in the game, I hear it all the time. I also didn't say it was the worst MBT in the game, I said in 1v1 MBT situations it is the worst. The Prowler can run circles around a Magrider and kill it since the Magrider cannot turn that fast and the Vanguard was already the best 1v1 tank in the game. So explain to me again why the AP would be buffed on all but the Magrider?
Uh... because the AP turret on the Prowler was useless and the Vanguard's slow ass shells couldn't hit something that can easily strafe to the side?

edit: Also if you think that Vulcan change was a nerf you've probably never used it. I'll trade my Saron for your Vulcan any day.
I didn't say the Vulcan was nerfed, but SURE, I'll take the secondary AP Sniper Rifle over the AP Chaingun ANY day!

[maradine]

edit: Also if you think that Vulcan change was a nerf you've probably never used it. I'll trade my Saron for your Vulcan any day.

Dude, not a chance. Even nerfed, it's still the best anti-armor secondary in the game. You'd have to pay me actual dollars to pry it off the roof.

I'm not happy with it, but we got off light, mate. :) I actually think the hover reduction is a blessing. The ride height effect was making it increasingly difficult to find good hull-down positions.