SOE does not intend to listen to feedback. Time for another method?

[p0intman]

Firstly a note: I hate to promote something like this, as it seems a little drastic, but I see no other recourse available to us as the evidence outlined below has made clear (for me, at least).

A few things I've noticed that concern me make it pretty clear that despite voting on the ps2 forums on the roadmap being well underway and some ideas being far less popular than others - and still having an overall negative rating now - SOE does not intend to listen or pay attention. They will, as usual, steamroll ahed with things.

See things such as the outfit tournements (http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/june-outfit-tournaments.83021/) that are at best divisive in the community, and are at worst simply pandering to BR3/CoD/Moh crowd. Outfit tournaments are something Smedly has said he views as being the only real way to make Esports work in ps2.

https://twitter.com/j_smedley/status/295083991793553408
https://twitter.com/j_smedley/status/295084389149310976

So, despite this, our votes mean NOTHING. All it is, is ANOTHER PR gig.

so, things like supply contains (http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/june-supply-containers.83020/) and fb/twitter integration (http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/april-facebook-twitter-integration.83005/), which are both hilariously and wildly unpopular, will likely make it in anyway.

This is par for the course with SOE, and they've likely made their minds up anyway on most/all of this. They did this with BFRs, and the same thing will happen with this MLG bullshit. So, instead of speaking, I propose giving them the actual metrics.

The solution:

Those who see this pattern and agree, STOP LOGGING IN. Even if you currently play and are concerned about this: DO NOT LOG IN. Boycott the game and force SOE to see that this is no longer acceptable and will not be tolerated by the community. This is how they will listen, most people think that content in a game like this is made up of bases, gens, turrets, etc. The real content? Players. Actual humans fighting one another in a virtual battlefield.

If you are a leader of an organised outfit, pass this around and get people to simply not log in for a week or three. If enough people do it, they will be forced to see what they stand to lose.

[basti]

Ah, good old pointman is back with his random clueless rabble.


You are just another person who doesnt understand Esports at all, and how they interact with PS2...

edit: just ask ANYONE of the folks who participated in the original Outfit wars. THATS what we are talking about here. NOT 24/7 instanced combat that takes people away from the main game. Thats exaclty whats NOT going to happen, as stated several times by Several devs.

Get
A
Clue
!

[LoliLoveFart]

I'm all for a good boycott, but, Player numbers were rapidly decreasing after launch, not so sure what they are like now after the UES so who knows.
Also i thought the Roadmap was voting for PRIORITY of what goes in aka higher votes is implemented first.

[p0intman]

Ah, good old pointman is back with his random clueless rabble.


You are just another person who doesnt understand Esports at all, and how they interact with PS2...

edit: just ask ANYONE of the folks who participated in the original Outfit wars. THATS what we are talking about here. NOT 24/7 instanced combat that takes people away from the main game. Thats exaclty whats NOT going to happen, as stated several times by Several devs.

Get
A
Clue
!

You mad your pet ideas are being hilariously downvoted?

Btw, I participated in the outfit wars. I STILL disagree with this.

[Crator]

So, um, the tweets are dated Jan 13. That was before the roadmap announcement.

[ChipMHazard]

Also i thought the Roadmap was voting for PRIORITY of what goes in aka higher votes is implemented first.

That or just to serve as an indicator of sorts as to what sort of content people like.
Personally I don't really get the point about voting for some of the things. Does it matter if people downvote the new continent? It's still going to be added in and so will the rest of them, whenever they are ready.

The voting system was never meant to be something where we could directly influence their choices, they even point that out.
This critique seems rather pointless really.

[p0intman]

That or just to serve as an indicator of sorts as to what sort of content people like.

In other words, "Your opinions mean fuck all, htfu and deal with it".

if its already decided, why bother with this farce?

Imo, if SOE were to listen, they'd be willing to rethink and trash ideas that aren't wanted.

So, um, the tweets are dated Jan 13. That was before the roadmap announcement.

imo, he had his opinion made up before beta even began. date means nothing.

[ChipMHazard]

In other words, "Your opinions mean fuck all, htfu and deal with it".

if its already decided, why bother with this farce?

Imo, if SOE were to listen, they'd be willing to rethink and trash ideas that aren't wanted.

Well I can't say that I fully know either. I would guess that some of the ideas are more up for grabs than others. I could see them changing their views on say... Achievements, future class/vehicle redesigning, based on our feedback.
I do agree that many of the changes just seem strange to have people vote on.
I can only guess of what use it is having us up/down vote something like tutorial, SMG, continent locking, tournament features etc.
I have to wonder why they care whether or not we really [dis]like something they've been working on for months or weeks and that's going to be added no matter what.

I wouldn't go as far and claim that they aren't interested in our feedback since we've seen more than one update which included changes based on feedback. The road map also features changes that we've suggested/demanded in the past.

[CrazEpharmacist]

It's just not worth it. I've stopped logging in for weeks now. Just wait for PS1 to go free to play. This game is far too broken to fix. SOE has proven time and time again they are a joke of a company.

[Mox]

Soe is lying. They shit on us. This whole voting thing is a farce. Be sure players will be invunerable, fb linked, playing on rented servers outfitwars broadcasted by mlg or fighting against a npc-alien race on the main servers.

Be sure SOE wont listen to the community. They still think the can design a pig that shit golden eggs by making ps2 somekind of casual place that attract everbody (npcs for wow kiddies, esports for.the koreans, tobuscus and seananners for the youtubers, twitchy gunplay for bf3/cod-players,.) at the end they will lose everything because the game will be for nobody instead of for everbody. And they shit on the real fans which os the biggest fault one can do.

[ringring]

You've got tihs wrong.

'Listen to' does not mean obey and never has. Neither does 'take into account'.

They'll listen and take into account but that poll was just an opinion poll and not an instruction for them to obey.

Not many people voted for the SMG's and yet we all know that FTP means they have to introduce new weapons and other stuff for the store.

We really didn't like the social media stuff either, but if the reckon they need it in order to keep on attracting new players then it will go in whatever our personal opinions, and that's right. Social media is not on my wish list but neither will it make me go away.

However the metagame will, but that's in there just a long way away.

[basti]

You mad your pet ideas are being hilariously downvoted?

Btw, I participated in the outfit wars. I STILL disagree with this.

Im not.

Its due to two reasons: presentation, and content.

I didnt present my stuff very well, and the content isnt what people want it seems.

Im giving it another go with a proper text based presentation. Once the time is right. :>

[Emperor Newt]

So can anyone actually explain to me (and maybe others who don't have a clue) how the esport mode(s) for PS2 are supposed to work?
I played several shooters competetivly but I fail to understand how esports can be implemented into PS2 without creating a second game.
Thanks in advance.

[p0intman]

So can anyone actually explain to me (and maybe others who don't have a clue) how the esport mode(s) for PS2 are supposed to work?
I played several shooters competetivly but I fail to understand how esports can be implemented into PS2 without creating a second game.
Thanks in advance.

it can't. its forcing instancing.


'Listen to' does not mean obey and never has. Neither does 'take into account'.

They'll listen and take into account but that poll was just an opinion poll and not an instruction for them to obey.
.

Why ask for an opinion, if in the end, it means fuck all? Don't ask for opinions unless you intend to somehow show you care about them.

I have no illusions about it, but they've claimed more than once that this is a discussion. No, a discussion implies a back and fourth conversation. This is a one way speech from SOE saying 'this is how it is'.

[basti]

In other words, "Your opinions mean fuck all, htfu and deal with it".

if its already decided, why bother with this farce?

Imo, if SOE were to listen, they'd be willing to rethink and trash ideas that aren't wanted.



imo, he had his opinion made up before beta even began. date means nothing.


Actually, date means a lot.

Thanks to the MLG announcmen and the roadmap, SOE now actually knows what players think, as opposed to listen to the very few comments we made (as it never was a hot topic until now).


Will it still happen? I bloddy hope so, because its the right thing to do. Its really not a question of "should it", but "how should it". Make sure it doesnt affect the main game much or even at all, means dont allow outfits to 24/7 hop into instances and completly avoid the actual game. Let them just be in there for events, and events only. Only if SOE gets them into a Instance people can get in.

And thats whats likley going to happen. Why? because the community said so AGES ago, and SOE actually does listen, you are just to blind to see it.

[Higby]

Here's a quick rundown of what tournaments or esports will likely look like. If you hate it, great, don't participate, it's not forced in any way shape or form.

The first step in making esports work in PS2 will be making a real metric to compare the battle effectiveness of groups of players against each other. This can't really be XP because then the best "farmers" will be the best outfit. Once we have a metric that takes into account strategic objectives, efficiency, teamwork we will be able to have a real outfit ladder. That outfit ladder will be 100% completely based on accomplishments and actions in the normal day-to-day PlanetSide 2 open world combined arms non-instanced game that you're playing right now.

The outfit ladders will be broken into sizes, so outfits are competing against like-sized groups for position. These could be thought of as weight classes in boxing or wrestling. AT would be getting compared to TE, but PG might be getting compared to CDL.

At specific times throughout the year outfits that opt in to participate will be able to fight other outfits (within and without their empire) in bracketed invitational tournaments to see who is the best of the best. This wouldn't be an every day thing or something that players could "activate" or "queue for". Maybe one weekend some of the big outfits wouldn't be in the world for a couple hours per match, but it absolutely wouldn't be a "drain" of top level players or outfits.

Instanced gameplay wouldn't exist for day-to-day game, at all. The people who DO care about tournaments will have even more reason to play and accomplish things within the game because THEY care about the competition aspect. Those of you who do not won't have to, and won't feel any major impact except maybe for a couple hours on a weekend every few months the outfit won't be logged in for a couple hours while THEY do participate in something THEY want to do.

[p0intman]

so heres a question for you: Why implement the score ranking on the roadmap page then? What does the fact that it currently (at the time of this exact post) has an effective score of -70 (225 down, 155~ up) actually mean? Nothing, I assume. If nothing, why is it there? what did you hope to accomplish with the reddit style functionality for this? why bother? if its already decided, why score it? why not just open it up for comment/brainstorming instead without it?

i hate to be a dick about it, but it implies something that apparently doesnt exist.

[Higby]

Lots of reasons, we absolutely want to know the sentiment about the ideas, and we will evaluate features based on those numbers. For instance, we will be specifically discussing the feasibility of bringing some of the later and more popular ideas forward in the schedule to get done faster based on community results. Once players can submit ideas (which hopefully is pretty soon) it will be a great method for us to use find ingenious ideas that might be a good fit for the game. And, in some cases, if ideas are unpopular we might reconsider them. We're not going to base our development schedule 100% on a popularity contest, that's never been the intention. Similarly, when players can submit their ideas and the #1 idea is "make all player characters into dinosaurs" with 50,000,000 votes, it still probably won't happen.

[basti]

Lots of reasons, we absolutely want to know the sentiment about the ideas, and we will evaluate features based on those numbers. For instance, we will be specifically discussing the feasibility of bringing some of the later and more popular ideas forward in the schedule to get done faster based on community results. Once players can submit ideas (which hopefully is pretty soon) it will be a great method for us to use find ingenious ideas that might be a good fit for the game. And, in some cases, if ideas are unpopular we might reconsider them. We're not going to base our development schedule 100% on a popularity contest, that's never been the intention. Similarly, when players can submit their ideas and the #1 idea is "make all player characters into dinosaurs" with 50,000,000 votes, it still probably won't happen.


No velociraptor Gun, no Player Dinos.

Screw this game!

[EVILPIG]

Hi Matt.

[Higby]

Hi Matt.

Hey buddy, how was the game? Did you guys manage to catch any of it?

[p0intman]

well fuck, there goes any hope for a gun to shoot baby dinosaurs at my enemies. thanks for the clarification.

[cryosin]

Similarly, when players can submit their ideas and the #1 idea is "make all player characters into dinosaurs" with 50,000,000 votes, it still probably won't happen.


You gave me a great photoshop idea....

[EVILPIG]

Hey buddy, how was the game? Did you guys manage to catch any of it?

4th quarter. Those suites are niiice!

[Hamma]

No velociraptor Gun, no Player Dinos.

Screw this game!

I quit. It was a good run though.. it really was. :p

[kazumi]

Lots of reasons, we absolutely want to know the sentiment about the ideas, and we will evaluate features based on those numbers. For instance, we will be specifically discussing the feasibility of bringing some of the later and more popular ideas forward in the schedule to get done faster based on community results. Once players can submit ideas (which hopefully is pretty soon) it will be a great method for us to use find ingenious ideas that might be a good fit for the game. And, in some cases, if ideas are unpopular we might reconsider them. We're not going to base our development schedule 100% on a popularity contest, that's never been the intention. Similarly, when players can submit their ideas and the #1 idea is "make all player characters into dinosaurs" with 50,000,000 votes, it still probably won't happen.

Higby,

Firstly, I'm happy you've taken a active role in talking to the community. That shows alot about a persons character when their not afraid to speak their mind, and also take the heat when things fall apart.

But down to business. I love planetside 2. Honestly, it's a game I've been looking forward to for ages. Maybe not "Planetside2" specifically but the way the game is played, handled, and what the future outlook for it is. However, it's not there yet. The in-ability for me to lead my outfit of 100 daily active members, the in-ability to organize them in the outfit besides online/offline, the in-ability to organize a platoon smoothly, and the in-ability to manage way points for "squads" as a platoon leader makes this game hard to even fathom being a E-sport.

I'm excited to hear you partnered with MLG. I played league matches years ago when MLG first started. I think that was a great move, and will push PS2 into a new level. But we need to work on the game mechanics. I should not have to spend 15-20 minutes creating a platoon for my boys, I should not spend so much time clicking and moving my guys into their squads because they missed the timed invites.

I could spend hours talking to you about this. But I don't think we'd have the time. But I make this offer to you Higby check us out at taw.net. My Division of over 246 daily active members across the US, EU, and Oceanic would love to have a sit down with you. Even for 20 minutes and talk about what we as a highly organized, competitive, and structured community feel this game is lacking, where it excels, and just have a friendly conversation with a individual who wants the same thing we want. A amazing game, with depth, and strategy on a large scale.

Kazumi
Commanding Officer
AU Battalion
TAW.net

[ChipMHazard]

At specific times throughout the year outfits that opt in to participate will be able to fight other outfits (within and without their empire) in bracketed invitational tournaments to see who is the best of the best. This wouldn't be an every day thing or something that players could "activate" or "queue for". Maybe one weekend some of the big outfits wouldn't be in the world for a couple hours per match, but it absolutely wouldn't be a "drain" of top level players or outfits.


Ah, so tournaments won't be held like in say Counter-Strike, where the players actually attend an event physically.

Lots of reasons, we absolutely want to know the sentiment about the ideas, and we will evaluate features based on those numbers. For instance, we will be specifically discussing the feasibility of bringing some of the later and more popular ideas forward in the schedule to get done faster based on community results. Once players can submit ideas (which hopefully is pretty soon) it will be a great method for us to use find ingenious ideas that might be a good fit for the game. And, in some cases, if ideas are unpopular we might reconsider them. We're not going to base our development schedule 100% on a popularity contest, that's never been the intention. Similarly, when players can submit their ideas and the #1 idea is "make all player characters into dinosaurs" with 50,000,000 votes, it still probably won't happen.

Ah, so that's what you had in mind with it... To increase my dinosaur killing power, eh?

...
...
...

Sorry my mind wandered off there for a bit, what were we discussing? Ah, yes. Quad-barrel Dilophosaurus firing Prowler turret. The absolutely best choice when you want to hunt down NC and VS scum! (Just picture four of these wee guys chasing after you for dramatic effect)

Lizards chasing me in the jungle - YouTube

[GLaDOS]

Ahem (http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/some-major-issues-with-this-game-these-need-to-get-fixed-if-ps2-is-gonna-survive.54902/). Official PS2 dinosaur thread. Let's try to keep it contained, guys. :p

[Sunrock]

The outfit ladders will be broken into sizes, so outfits are competing against like-sized groups for position. These could be thought of as weight classes in boxing or wrestling. AT would be getting compared to TE, but PG might be getting compared to CDL.


Does this mean that there will be specific "e-sport servers"? As you can never ever guarantee "like-sized groups" on any of the servers we are playing on now. At least not without totally fucking up the game.

PS: But then again you (SOE) always manage to ruin the games 6-12 months after it was released with some "idiot" patch or expansion. Way brake the tradition?

[VGCS]

Done. Haven't logged in since new years. Definitely won't be logging in now.

Been here done this.... I remember when idea Voting like this got removed from DCOU...
OP is absolutely right, this is just another PR Snowjob. Oh sure, some of the very rare GOOD developers in their company like Malorn would have put this feedback to excellent use; but to the Top Level guys like Smed, it's just another way to string all of you along. Don't fall for it this time. Stop gaming Cold Turkey if you have to. I have...

[AnamNantom]

Ah, good old pointman is back with his random clueless rabble.


You are just another person who doesnt understand Esports at all, and how they interact with PS2...

edit: just ask ANYONE of the folks who participated in the original Outfit wars. THATS what we are talking about here. NOT 24/7 instanced combat that takes people away from the main game. Thats exaclty whats NOT going to happen, as stated several times by Several devs.

Get
A
Clue
!

Well, the point I was making with my tweet was that I don't like the instanced idea. It's part of that roadmap, instances. If there are instances, I don't mind if it's instances where there's a stadium setting and people of the very same faction are fighting on teams, making this truly e-sports. They'd essentially be playing laser-tag. They'd have different weapons.

What irks me is having members of different factions gathering together for a fun sport while the war rages around them. That's just odd. Story matters a lot. It's part of why I like Planetside. Throw that away and you might as well all be robots painted different team colors, fighting each other for no reason in the middle of a grey and featureless facility.

[AnamNantom]

Soe is lying. They shit on us. This whole voting thing is a farce. Be sure players will be invunerable, fb linked, playing on rented servers outfitwars broadcasted by mlg or fighting against a npc-alien race on the main servers.

Be sure SOE wont listen to the community. They still think the can design a pig that shit golden eggs by making ps2 somekind of casual place that attract everbody (npcs for wow kiddies, esports for.the koreans, tobuscus and seananners for the youtubers, twitchy gunplay for bf3/cod-players,.) at the end they will lose everything because the game will be for nobody instead of for everbody. And they shit on the real fans which os the biggest fault one can do.

NPC aliens wouldn't be that bad, if they did it right. Just saying, dynamic events are fun. I still want the vast majority of what I shoot to be real live people, but, that little bit is not bad.

[AnamNantom]

Here's a quick rundown of what tournaments or esports will likely look like. If you hate it, great, don't participate, it's not forced in any way shape or form.

The first step in making esports work in PS2 will be making a real metric to compare the battle effectiveness of groups of players against each other. This can't really be XP because then the best "farmers" will be the best outfit. Once we have a metric that takes into account strategic objectives, efficiency, teamwork we will be able to have a real outfit ladder. That outfit ladder will be 100% completely based on accomplishments and actions in the normal day-to-day PlanetSide 2 open world combined arms non-instanced game that you're playing right now.

The outfit ladders will be broken into sizes, so outfits are competing against like-sized groups for position. These could be thought of as weight classes in boxing or wrestling. AT would be getting compared to TE, but PG might be getting compared to CDL.

At specific times throughout the year outfits that opt in to participate will be able to fight other outfits (within and without their empire) in bracketed invitational tournaments to see who is the best of the best. This wouldn't be an every day thing or something that players could "activate" or "queue for". Maybe one weekend some of the big outfits wouldn't be in the world for a couple hours per match, but it absolutely wouldn't be a "drain" of top level players or outfits.

Instanced gameplay wouldn't exist for day-to-day game, at all. The people who DO care about tournaments will have even more reason to play and accomplish things within the game because THEY care about the competition aspect. Those of you who do not won't have to, and won't feel any major impact except maybe for a couple hours on a weekend every few months the outfit won't be logged in for a couple hours while THEY do participate in something THEY want to do.

I do think this is fine, except why is it not outfits from the same faction fighting each other with "laser tag" weapons? I guess my complaint is simply that it goes against my "story" and my "roleplay" tendencies.

A big part of my draw to Planetside is being a part of a story that I get to move along with my real life skills (and good or lack of good hardware). It's being immersed in an interesting sci-fi struggle in the future where all the soldiers are real and unpredictable.

Add into the storyline that the soldiers of the warring factions decided one day to take their fighting to an arena, secluded from Auraxis and have a referee watch them with a large cast of announcers? If this were Bullet Run, this would make sense. These are supposed to be real people, though, in the real known universe, fighting on a very distant planet for resources, not sport.

Again, if outfits from the same faction were fighting each other with a sort of "laser tag" for sport, I'd like this. I'd even think it was ok if it were a "fantasy football" kind of thing were people could make their own dream team and bet on the winners, etc. This way it'd be about the individual soldier's performance. With the re-cloning technology we have, I could see this... but outfits from different factions playing games with each other?

Where's the war? Why fight a war when you get along enough to play "games"?

[Sledgecrushr]

Im really digging the whole esports idea. I know there are a lot of ingame components that would have to be installed before this kind of thing becomes realized. Personally I cant wait for the time when the DD and TE can square off again.

[artifice]

Here's a quick rundown of what tournaments or esports will likely look like. If you hate it, great, don't participate, it's not forced in any way shape or form.

The first step in making esports work in PS2 will be making a real metric to compare the battle effectiveness of groups of players against each other. This can't really be XP because then the best "farmers" will be the best outfit. Once we have a metric that takes into account strategic objectives, efficiency, teamwork we will be able to have a real outfit ladder. That outfit ladder will be 100% completely based on accomplishments and actions in the normal day-to-day PlanetSide 2 open world combined arms non-instanced game that you're playing right now.

The outfit ladders will be broken into sizes, so outfits are competing against like-sized groups for position. These could be thought of as weight classes in boxing or wrestling. AT would be getting compared to TE, but PG might be getting compared to CDL.

At specific times throughout the year outfits that opt in to participate will be able to fight other outfits (within and without their empire) in bracketed invitational tournaments to see who is the best of the best. This wouldn't be an every day thing or something that players could "activate" or "queue for". Maybe one weekend some of the big outfits wouldn't be in the world for a couple hours per match, but it absolutely wouldn't be a "drain" of top level players or outfits.

Instanced gameplay wouldn't exist for day-to-day game, at all. The people who DO care about tournaments will have even more reason to play and accomplish things within the game because THEY care about the competition aspect. Those of you who do not won't have to, and won't feel any major impact except maybe for a couple hours on a weekend every few months the outfit won't be logged in for a couple hours while THEY do participate in something THEY want to do.

I am not in an outfit and I think this idea is perfectly reasonable. I would probably watch some of these matches. My suggestion is to ignore the knee jerk reactions.

[psijaka]

"UNFAIR, UNFAIR" I hear people cry!

Well I've got news for you, SoE are a business, not a democracy. Encouraging players to vote on issues is a means of finding out what they would like, and what their concerns are, with a bit of PR thrown in. Nothing more.

And I'll not be joining any boycott; I'm pretty happy with the direction the game is taking, and even if I wasn't, a boycott would be utterly pointless. Like sulking in the corner.

[Krowe]

I personally don't think esports (this term is cancer) would work.

Planetside is about global conquest, not matches, so I don't particularly like that they're trying to force this in. Livestreaming I can understand, but contests/competitions? Naw dawg.

[Sledgecrushr]

I absolutely love contests and competitions. If esports doesnt take away from the global conflict but highlights great outfits and their players in a dynamic way then i am all for it.

[Krowe]

I absolutely love contests and competitions. If esports doesnt take away from the global conflict but highlights great outfits and their players in a dynamic way then i am all for it.

Not saying they aren't fun, I just don't think they would work. Despite the futuristic setting, Planetside simulates an actual war in the sense that it can be unpredictable and over a grand scale. This makes it great for Livestreaming and maybe even spectating (think floating cameras catching combat from afar or up-close), but trying to muck that up with 16 v 16 or outfit v outfit nonsense is just disappointing.

[Sledgecrushr]

Not saying they aren't fun, I just don't think they would work. Despite the futuristic setting, Planetside simulates an actual war in the sense that it can be unpredictable and over a grand scale. This makes it great for Livestreaming and maybe even spectating (think floating cameras catching combat from afar or up-close), but trying to muck that up with 16 v 16 or outfit v outfit nonsense is just disappointing.

I respect your opinion.

[Assist]

So, um, the tweets are dated Jan 13. That was before the roadmap announcement.

lol.
/facepalm

Check the number before the Jan 13 part.

[AnamNantom]

Not saying they aren't fun, I just don't think they would work. Despite the futuristic setting, Planetside simulates an actual war in the sense that it can be unpredictable and over a grand scale. This makes it great for Livestreaming and maybe even spectating (think floating cameras catching combat from afar or up-close), but trying to muck that up with 16 v 16 or outfit v outfit nonsense is just disappointing.


Exactly, and it takes away from the story of three factions fighting for territory, resources, and technology.

Make this only inter-factional and not using real weapons, but a laser tag thing. Then, you could have "teams" and etc.

Military forces of opposing armies today do not stop and play paintball.

[AnamNantom]

lol.
/facepalm

Check the number before the Jan 13 part.

Yeah I didn't tweet that Jan 13th.

[Velkkonen]

Im just gonna say no. Boycotting by mass logout seems more like waving a gun and making threats, and ultimately does nothing to help SOE attempt to make this a better game. Keep in mind the staff to user ratio is about 1/1000, so we can expect to feel "not listened to" at times. Im glad they have a roadmap, you know what? The roadmap is great. Not perfect but its a step in the right direction, ALOT.

If anything, we as the community should support SOE more than we currently do while speaking up about things that arent working (and I get it, their are TONS). If you dont like the game, don't play, and leave your reasons why in a respectful manner if you feel the need to, you never know where SOE is looking. But lets not play the punishment/bullying game. Progress is not made like that

[Ghoest9]

Pointman is being unreasonable and is looking for excuses to hate again.

Adding tournaments that take place outside of the regular game is not something any player has grounds to whine about.

Its fair to be upset about changes to the game that will effect the way you play or what happenes to you in game.

Its not reasonable to complain about added content that is optional and has no direct effect on the game world.
If you are going to complain about this then you should be whining everytime SOE releases any new game.

[BizSAR]

Hey all, just getting back into the swing of things. It's been a while for sure. :)
Personally, I can think of nothing more boring than watching "esports". Why watch when you can play? The inflated egos that come with it and the "pros" that play and "ecast" leave a really rancid taste in my mouth. Will PS2 be any different from Starcraft in that respect? Time will tell, and it's effects sound forced upon us it seems.

[Crator]

lol.
/facepalm

Check the number before the Jan 13 part.

Good call. /faceplam indeed... :D

If e-sports bring in more people to play the game so be it. More people the better imo. If it doesn't work, then what do I care.

[BIGGByran]

I think the esport thing could work. It will not work in a large scale as that would be boring, but would work in a smaller scale like Biodome, Amp Station, and Tech Plant fights. The area would have to be a bit bigger than current scale. 1 Objective (to capture the Biodome, Amp Station, Tech Planet), 3 bases (The outlying bases) for the 3 factions. First to control the base is the winner. For AnamNantom, this can still stay with the story, as each faction is fighting for control. As for Faction Vs Themselves, consider it training.

Rules: (Maybe/Idea)
1. Capture the main base and you win.
2. You can knock out the other team by capturing their base (and by doing so, you risk losing on capturing the main base as your forces is capturing something else and allowing the other team to build up defenses)
3. Small population cap maybe like 200 per side to make it even. (concider this a specialize team for those RP'er out there)
4. Set limit on resources (cannot be replenished or maybe small replenisment by kills), making Tanks, Sundies, Maxs, and anything that eats resources invaluable.
5. Make games last roughly 20-40mins

I would watch it for tactical information.

[AnamNantom]

Pointman is being unreasonable and is looking for excuses to hate again.

Adding tournaments that take place outside of the regular game is not something any player has grounds to whine about.

Its fair to be upset about changes to the game that will effect the way you play or what happenes to you in game.

Its not reasonable to complain about added content that is optional and has no direct effect on the game world.
If you are going to complain about this then you should be whining everytime SOE releases any new game.

Is this a new game? No, it's Planetside. It's Massive. It's Global. It's a War simulator. One question: In what way does it make sense for warring factions to drop the fighting to run off and shoot each other in some gladiatorial sport while the war rages on elsewhere?

Instances. I hate that in a sandbox (open world game). Yet, I'd be ok if they did instances for outfits of the same faction to fight each other for a sort of practice/sport using non-lethal guns.

What do you think of this?

[Sledgecrushr]

An idea I was kicking around the DD forums was a friday night raid night. Kind of like in other MMOs where everyone gets together and goes dungeon crawling except we would travel to other servers and fight with other outdits around the world. It sounds to me that this esport would actually work something like that except you get all your equipment and certs. I used to love raiding in eq and wow and I tried at least to foster some of that with my own outfit.

[AnamNantom]

An idea I was kicking around the DD forums was a friday night raid night. Kind of like in other MMOs where everyone gets together and goes dungeon crawling except we would travel to other servers and fight with other outfits around the world. It sounds to me that this esport would actually work something like that except you get all your equipment and certs. I used to love raiding in eq and wow and I tried at least to foster some of that with my own outfit.

Ok, but they said these were other instances. Not open world servers. You are not travelling to other servers. That said, if these are instances and you are away from the *real* war going on, it's like entire outfits just deserted their factions in order to go play games with the enemy.

It makes no sense. Planetside 2 has a great backstory and setting. Unless these instances are of the same faction and it's truly ppl playing laser tag with their own faction, I don't like it. I've played first person shooters since the days of Doom. In Doom, Quake, UT, and all the competitive first person shooters since, many didn't really have a reason for the pvp. Tribes did, Mechwarrior did.. I think of Planetside as a spiritual successor to the Tribes/Mechwarrior fps / simulator awesomeness that many of us love.


Make it a gladiator arena thing. An arena of outfits from the same faction. Have other players in the audience, sell popcorn and candy for SOE cash, I don't care, but don't ruin the game's backstory.

Yeah I'm sure some dope heads out there could care less for the story behind PS2, but they are dope heads with no imagination or passion for the coolness of it all. The story and the game's art and design go hand in hand. I'd hate to think that T-Ray's team did all that factional look and design for nothing.

My point is, we might as well be just playing as robots who are painted different team colors in a bland, featureless gray environment using the exact same weapons and gear if we are going to have warring factions playing an instanced game.

[EightEightEight]

http://i.imgur.com/4Z8e9pK.png (http://i.imgur.com/4Z8e9pK.png)

YAY!!

[TheAadvark]

Why are you taking this so seriously? Yes i understand that it would be against the story ,but still ? ok now here's a solution for you.

So we have a league inside each of our factions each of the outfits battle against each

other the winner or top two get to battle against the enemies top two over an area, this

could be server specific or across all servers.

The only problem with this is the amount of players one outfit might have like the DevilDogs they would dominate any other outfit ,

maybe you should make a shortlist of your best players and put them forward and cap the max number of players participating.

And for the "story" once the enemy forces know that the enemy has their elite troops are in an area will they not send their own best to combat them ?

[Sledgecrushr]

We have a backstory? Dude, Im in this for the team aspect and to shoot people in the face.

[Ghoest9]

Is this a new game? No, it's Planetside. It's Massive. It's Global. It's a War simulator. One question: In what way does it make sense for warring factions to drop the fighting to run off and shoot each other in some gladiatorial sport while the war rages on elsewhere?

Instances. I hate that in a sandbox (open world game). Yet, I'd be ok if they did instances for outfits of the same faction to fight each other for a sort of practice/sport using non-lethal guns.

What do you think of this?

No one is asking you to play in tournaments - so dont bitch about what other people do.
The entire extent of your complaint is that itsnot forcing everyone to play with you. That isnt valid.

[Rolfski]

E-sports is a double edged sword and SOE knows this. Voting on features was never meant to be a democracy, it's just a tool to (quoting T-Ray) "wield out the bad ideas".

TL,DR: Stop being a drama queen about it.

[AnamNantom]

Why are you taking this so seriously? Yes i understand that it would be against the story ,but still ? ok now here's a solution for you.

So we have a league inside each of our factions each of the outfits battle against each

other the winner or top two get to battle against the enemies top two over an area, this

could be server specific or across all servers.

The only problem with this is the amount of players one outfit might have like the DevilDogs they would dominate any other outfit ,

maybe you should make a shortlist of your best players and put them forward and cap the max number of players participating.

And for the "story" once the enemy forces know that the enemy has their elite troops are in an area will they not send their own best to combat them ?

I take it seriously because I'm serious about the game. If I were just a stats and numbers guy who wanted that status quo team-based game I'd be playing BF or CoD and only for trying to rank up.

What you are saying is good up until the point of the enemy forces. Enemy forces should only be met on the REAL battlefield.

[AnamNantom]

We have a backstory? Dude, Im in this for the team aspect and to shoot people in the face.

I'm in it for the team aspect, shooting in the face, and doing it on a massive scale that only PS1 had. Also, the story gives me a reason to shoot ppl in the face and makes it an immersive experience for all.

Here's a little backstory for you:

http://wiki.planetside-universe.com/ps/Henry_Briggs

Also, an illustration I did of this:

http://anam.tilt180.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/HenryBriggsVision.png

[AnamNantom]

No one is asking you to play in tournaments - so dont bitch about what other people do.
The entire extent of your complaint is that itsnot forcing everyone to play with you. That isnt valid.

No, the entire extent of my complaint is exactly what I said, sir. You avoided my question:

In what way does it make sense for warring factions to drop the fighting to run off and shoot each other in some gladiatorial sport while the war rages on elsewhere?

I also offered something that made sense. Outfits of the same faction practicing with each other. You did not comment on that as I had asked.

[p0intman]

it is my personal opinion that MLG is the cancer of gaming. just, y'know, my two cents, not that i havent given it before.

[Ghoest9]

No, the entire extent of my complaint is exactly what I said, sir. You avoided my question:

In what way does it make sense for warring factions to drop the fighting to run off and shoot each other in some gladiatorial sport while the war rages on elsewhere?

I also offered something that made sense. Outfits of the same faction practicing with each other. You did not comment on that as I had asked.

I didnt avoid your question - I said the whole premise of your question(and comments) isnt valid.

It doesnt matter if you or I think it makes sense as to what other people want to do when gaming. Its game and as long as nothing they do effects you(except by their absence) then you have no bright to complain.

You are not important enough to be able to dictate what other people should be allowed to do.
Get over yourself ego boy.

[Merzun]

What about: Intelligence has found out that faction x plans y at base z. We only have a minimal timeframe to assemble a task force and ferry it over to the facility.

And then maybe the winning empire outfit gains some small bonusses for their empire.

It's not that hard to imagine why there is only one outfit or maybe outfit alliance present.

[KyadCK]

No, the entire extent of my complaint is exactly what I said, sir. You avoided my question:

In what way does it make sense for warring factions to drop the fighting to run off and shoot each other in some gladiatorial sport while the war rages on elsewhere?

I also offered something that made sense. Outfits of the same faction practicing with each other. You did not comment on that as I had asked.

The part where it is a game.

Seriously though, you're opposed to them adding something that would be fun for some people that effects you in no way at all because it hurts the story even though it plays no part in the struggle of Auraxis at all. Do you have any idea how entitled and whiny you sound?

If this changed how the game is played, or if it invalidated the story, I would see a point in complaining. But it doesn't, it's just a side thing people can do now and then that has nothing at all to do with the war. It is a game, and it does not effect you. You will get over it, and you're welcome to find some other game that is "pure" enough for your tastes if you won't.

[AnamNantom]

I didnt avoid your question - I said the whole premise of your question(and comments) isnt valid.

It doesnt matter if you or I think it makes sense as to what other people want to do when gaming. Its game and as long as nothing they do effects you(except by their absence) then you have no bright to complain.

You are not important enough to be able to dictate what other people should be allowed to do.
Get over yourself ego boy.

In what way does it make sense for warring factions to drop the fighting to run off and shoot each other in some gladiatorial sport while the war rages on elsewhere? <-- That question, that you yet again ignored.

Your attempts at insulting me, are par for the course with someone trying to "troll". I could go make fun of your spelling mistakes and insult everything from your neckbeard to your mother, but that's not very productive. Just like this conversation.

I do hope you enjoy the anti-social status you've earned while also being ignored.

[AnamNantom]

What about: Intelligence has found out that faction x plans y at base z. We only have a minimal timeframe to assemble a task force and ferry it over to the facility.

And then maybe the winning empire outfit gains some small bonusses for their empire.

It's not that hard to imagine why there is only one outfit or maybe outfit alliance present.

Yeah, fine, the mission system they are coming out with would fit with that... but they just need to not have it on an instance as it's very artificial then. From what I can tell it's "matches" where certain members of outfits will spar, as they said, in an instance.

With all the talks of having seamless gameplay, of eventually making the continents seamlessly connected, this totally goes against that.

[Sunrock]

The thing is that Planetside is played a allot like go but now they want to turn it into chess with e-sports witch is a totally different game. If I wanted to play "chess" I would go and play some other game.

I like e-sports in general, so I have nothing against that per say. But I don't play Planetside to get that experience. Planetside provides me with an other experience, an experience no other game can give me. But what I don't like at all is when a game have one play style and then change it totally just to try to comendate some theoretical new costumers on the experience of there old fans.

[AnamNantom]

The part where it is a game.

Seriously though, you're opposed to them adding something that would be fun for some people that effects you in no way at all because it hurts the story even though it plays no part in the struggle of Auraxis at all. Do you have any idea how entitled and whiny you sound?

If this changed how the game is played, or if it invalidated the story, I would see a point in complaining. But it doesn't, it's just a side thing people can do now and then that has nothing at all to do with the war. It is a game, and it does not effect you. You will get over it, and you're welcome to find some other game that is "pure" enough for your tastes if you won't.

As you said, it plays no part in the struggle of Auraxis. So, what's it doing in Planetside 2? It fully effects the game and how it's played. People will only be playing the normal Planetside 2 in order for the chance to be a part of "the game", this "side thing" you are calling it.

Your comment about sounding whiny and entitled, has it occurred to you that this is a forum and by definition, it's a place to gather to debate and discuss ideas and issues? You know, like the Greeks and Romans?

For you to attack my delivery, to attack me, has no place in debating the message, the content of what I'm saying. You also have no place to "welcome me" to find another game. It's obvious the vast majority do not like the MLG idea as it has been presented. Key words, stay with me, the last guy didn't pay close attention to my words... as it has been presented.

The solution, and I'll keep saying this, is to make it an inter-faction outfit fight and make is so you are not killing, but merely using some sort of non lethal "laser-tag" weapons. You can have all of the ladder matches you want because it is, after all, a side thing, a game.

[Merzun]

Yeah, fine, the mission system they are coming out with would fit with that... but they just need to not have it on an instance as it's very artificial then. From what I can tell it's "matches" where certain members of outfits will spar, as they said, in an instance.

With all the talks of having seamless gameplay, of eventually making the continents seamlessly connected, this totally goes against that.

But we already have instances of some kind called continents. Even with the seamless approach we only can fit 666 people per empire on a continent. These new smaller maps would just be like that with the restriction of less people and only the people you want there/send there. This could already be done in PS1 if a big outfit wants to only have their troops present they would start a new battle on a continent and poplock it themselves. Also if i remember correctly the battle islands and caverns both had a smaller poplock than the usual continents.

And as I said you can easily tie the stuff in with normal battles via benefits you can gain for your empire in the tournaments.

They could even restrict the ressources both teams have by how well all other empire soldiers do on the battlefield though this would go against against having the same prerequisite for everyone in the tournament.

[Revanmug]

Is this a new game? No, it's Planetside. It's Massive. It's Global. It's a War simulator. One question: In what way does it make sense for warring factions to drop the fighting to run off and shoot each other in some gladiatorial sport while the war rages on elsewhere?

Instances. I hate that in a sandbox (open world game). Yet, I'd be ok if they did instances for outfits of the same faction to fight each other for a sort of practice/sport using non-lethal guns.

What do you think of this?

Just putting this because of this "sandbox" excuse being thrown out. There is absolutly nothing... NOTHING that link open world and sandbox.

A sandbox game can be a SP, can be a MP, can be instance or not. All sandbox mean is that you are "more" free to do what you want, when you want.

If SOE hold to theirs words and use a specific competition server only for events which will be rarer, being against that is actually removing a sandbox element which is, in this case, the possibility of competition. It completly remove the possiblity to show what an outfit can do when facing another opponent of the same force WHICH you'll never see ingame and you should know that. It's call pride in your outfit.

You might love to RP and "immerse" yourself in the game but not everyone does. For many, fps could be resume at : shoot dude not my color and, hopefully, do the objectives. In other words, don't shove what you like in others people throat.

[Chewy]

AnamNantom-

Read this.
http://flickeringpictures.com/2008/06/08/world-war-ones-british-german-christmas-soccer-match/

That's the story of a soccer match in 1914 on Christmas day. In case your history is rusty, that's during WW1. During the total shit that was World War 1, on Christmas day both the British and Germans risked lives to have peace for that day. They ate together, chatted, shared gifts, traded souvenirs, helped bury each others dead, and even play a few games together not a day after both sides where shooting and killing each other.

War is fucking hell and somehow that happened. In one of the WORST wars the world has seen, people found a way to stop fighting even if it was for just a day or 2.


In PS2s death is near meaningless, even in its lore thanks to respawn tech. Why would they not find ways to get away from the constant killing and pains? Having to kill other people in war ruins ones mind enough as is. What the fuck do you think having to die a thousand deaths is like? The troops in this war not only have to deal with killing a never ending stream of men. They remember ALL of their deaths AND the pain from each and every one. If there wasn't a relief from it then you don't want to be around to see the "winners" when it's all over.

Sometimes the killing has to stop and have fun. Or you're going to be a husk of a human that has an undeniable need for the blood.



With all of the said, I have to say that Im not a fan of the MLG thing. But it in no way goes against PS2s lore. In fact the lore supports it to a point. Morale, what better way to keep it up than to kick another factions ass in a "friendly" competition when death isn't a factor? Take it as one getting called out for his shit talk and now has to prove those words.

[basti]

it is my personal opinion that MLG is the cancer of gaming. just, y'know, my two cents, not that i havent given it before.


And nobody gives a damn what you think. Why? Because its just random rabble from a madman without a clue.

[psijaka]

The thing is that Planetside is played a allot like go but now they want to turn it into chess with e-sports witch is a totally different game. If I wanted to play "chess" I would go and play some other game.

Agreed - This is how I feel about the game, especially when I see the Indar Hex system.

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee391/psijaka/GameComparison.png

[Crator]

One thing I do agree with being said, whatever system is put in place for e-sports should probably be integrated with the existing global conquest system.

There was talk about outfit owned bases as well as e-sports. Perhaps they are thinking about the tournaments in that aspect. So for instance there are small continents that are linked to the main continents. These are specifically used for outfit tournaments and the winner affects the warpgate links in some kind of way. So basically gives the players a way to control that aspect of the game.

[AnamNantom]

AnamNantom-

Read this.
http://flickeringpictures.com/2008/06/08/world-war-ones-british-german-christmas-soccer-match/

That's the story of a soccer match in 1914 on Christmas day. In case your history is rusty, that's during WW1. During the total shit that was World War 1, on Christmas day both the British and Germans risked lives to have peace for that day. They ate together, chatted, shared gifts, traded souvenirs, helped bury each others dead, and even play a few games together not a day after both sides where shooting and killing each other.

War is fucking hell and somehow that happened. In one of the WORST wars the world has seen, people found a way to stop fighting even if it was for just a day or 2.


In PS2s death is near meaningless, even in its lore thanks to respawn tech. Why would they not find ways to get away from the constant killing and pains? Having to kill other people in war ruins ones mind enough as is. What the fuck do you think having to die a thousand deaths is like? The troops in this war not only have to deal with killing a never ending stream of men. They remember ALL of their deaths AND the pain from each and every one. If there wasn't a relief from it then you don't want to be around to see the "winners" when it's all over.

Sometimes the killing has to stop and have fun. Or you're going to be a husk of a human that has an undeniable need for the blood.



With all of the said, I have to say that Im not a fan of the MLG thing. But it in no way goes against PS2s lore. In fact the lore supports it to a point. Morale, what better way to keep it up than to kick another factions ass in a "friendly" competition when death isn't a factor? Take it as one getting called out for his shit talk and now has to prove those words.


There you go :) That's what I was looking for. Someone to actually address why I had a problem with it. It would be an odd thing for sure.

So, shall I see you NC and TR on Christmas? :)

[Baneblade]

I don't have a lot of faith in SOE and sofar PS2 hasn't really done anything to revitalize it. This Roadmap thing could have done it though, but as usual, SOE doesn't really care what we think unless we already agree on something.

[AnamNantom]

One thing I do agree with being said, whatever system is put in place for e-sports should probably be integrated with the existing global conquest system.

There was talk about outfit owned bases as well as e-sports. Perhaps they are thinking about the tournaments in that aspect. So for instance there are small continents that are linked to the main continents. These are specifically used for outfit tournaments and the winner affects the warpgate links in some kind of way. So basically gives the players a way to control that aspect of the game.

That, would be interesting. I do like the idea of player owned bases, I've been waiting to see that on the roadmap.

[AnamNantom]

Just putting this because of this "sandbox" excuse being thrown out. There is absolutly nothing... NOTHING that link open world and sandbox.

A sandbox game can be a SP, can be a MP, can be instance or not. All sandbox mean is that you are "more" free to do what you want, when you want.

If SOE hold to theirs words and use a specific competition server only for events which will be rarer, being against that is actually removing a sandbox element which is, in this case, the possibility of competition. It completly remove the possiblity to show what an outfit can do when facing another opponent of the same force WHICH you'll never see ingame and you should know that. It's call pride in your outfit.

You might love to RP and "immerse" yourself in the game but not everyone does. For many, fps could be resume at : shoot dude not my color and, hopefully, do the objectives. In other words, don't shove what you like in others people throat.

There's no shoving of anything in anyone's throat.

Sandbox is a style of game in which minimal character limitations are placed on the gamer, allowing the gamer to roam and change a virtual world at will. In contrast to a progression-style game, a sandbox game emphasizes roaming and allows a gamer to select tasks. Instead of featuring segmented areas or numbered levels, a sandbox game usually occurs in a “world” to which the gamer has full access from start to finish.
- http://www.techopedia.com/definition/3952/sandbox

Isn't having instances going against the sandbox idea because instances are segmented areas?

[Shamrock]

I agree that the back-story is important for some players, it fleshes out the motivation for why we are fighting beyond the actual game mechanics; but for the vast majority of new players the best we can hope for is they bind to one particular faction and grow fond of it enough to have an enduring faction loyalty. This is something that is truly unique in PS and gives it an edge over session based shooters, where loyalty is more narrowly based, ie on your clan.

I don't have a problem with e-sports, an in game rationalisation could be created for why these outfits need to hive off to an instance, say a fight over a particular installation that contains a rare or vital resource, im thinking a "Where Eagles Dare" scenario.

I want Planetside to continue to grow, this means tapping into as many revenue streams as possible, e-sports puts PS on a stage where it will attract players who may never otherwise have heard of it, its a marketing tool that should be leveraged. I would balance that with the caveat that PS should never become BF with a sci-fi skin, that would be throwing away all that makes it unique; rather it should have enough elements in it that make players of CoD and BF feel comfortable enough playing it so we can show them there is a real alternative to limited session based play. We currently have the scale right in PS2 we just need to get the Meta element right to get the game on an even keel.

[Dougnifico]

I'm 100% with Basti on this one. It's not going to take anything away from the game and can open it up to new players and gain increased exposure (leading to more players). I think that the entire fear behind the notion of E-Sports is that it will "Call of Duty-ize" the game. This is not going to happen.

Edit: Wow. Like 10 million comments came in while typing this. Just... imagine this with the Basti v. Pointman bout.

[Ghoest9]

In what way does it make sense for warring factions to drop the fighting to run off and shoot each other in some gladiatorial sport while the war rages on elsewhere? <-- That question, that you yet again ignored.

Your attempts at insulting me, are par for the course with someone trying to "troll". I could go make fun of your spelling mistakes and insult everything from your neckbeard to your mother, but that's not very productive. Just like this conversation.

I do hope you enjoy the anti-social status you've earned while also being ignored.


Dude - its a game - its not your business to make other people play the game.

Get over yourself. YOUR DICTATORIAL DESIRES DONT MATTER.

If people want to to log out of the game to play a tournament its no different than if the want to log out and play WOT or BF3.


Get over yourself ego boy.

[LLRUKK]

You know what would really be great? If the in-game chat worked for everyone. Grand ideas, while great in intent, are worthless without chat either in game or TS or such. Please, either fix the in-game chat or do away with it. I am tired or running around oblivious to what my other squad mates are up to. Fix and balance the base game, then explore progressive ideas. And yea, I'm whining about the broken chat.

[Ghoest9]

There's no shoving of anything in anyone's throat.



You want to deny people the option of playing tournaments so their only option with the PS2 unierse is to play the way you want them too - even though it will have no effect on you - because it hurts your concept of game lore?

?????


Are you deluded?

[p0intman]

You want to deny people the option of playing tournaments so their only option with the PS2 unierse is to play the way you want them too - even though it will have no effect on you - because it hurts your concept of game lore?

?????


Are you deluded?

I dont think he is, you might be though.

Dude - its a game - its not your business to make other people play the game.

Get over yourself. YOUR DICTATORIAL DESIRES DONT MATTER.

If people want to to log out of the game to play a tournament its no different than if the want to log out and play WOT or BF3.


Get over yourself ego boy.

lol putting words in the mouths of others and calling people dictators because you disagree with us. get over yourself, and take a look at your own ego, boy.
I'm 100% with Basti on this one. It's not going to take anything away from the game and can open it up to new players and gain increased exposure (leading to more players). I think that the entire fear behind the notion of E-Sports is that it will "Call of Duty-ize" the game. This is not going to happen.

Edit: Wow. Like 10 million comments came in while typing this. Just... imagine this with the Basti v. Pointman bout.

The last time I saw Basti ingame in ps1, I farmed the ever loving fuck out of him at Anu on forseral. Murdered an entire galdrop he was in, and then he promptly rage-logged. He was slaughtered like AT often is. I've a feeling Basti would be very bad at outfit tournaments.

As for turning the game into a large cod/bf3 game without any end... too late. already done. outfit tournys will just continue the bastardisation of planetside.

[Ghoest9]

I dont think he is, you might be though.



lol putting words in the mouths of others and calling people dictators because you disagree with us. get over yourself, and take a look at your own ego, boy.


The last time I saw Basti ingame in ps1, I farmed the ever loving fuck out of him at Anu on forseral. Murdered an entire galdrop he was in, and then he promptly rage-logged. He was slaughtered like AT often is. I've a feeling Basti would be very bad at outfit tournaments.

As for turning the game into a large cod/bf3 game without any end... too late. already done. outfit tournys will just continue the bastardisation of planetside.

Saying people should not have an option simply so they will be more likely to log into the game and play with you - that is dictatorial. Plain and simple.

Saying you arent trying to force something down someone throat - when you are trying to force them to log into the game to play the way you want - that is being deluded.

Nothing I said was me being deluded.
I suspect you dont know the real definition of that word because as you used it in reference to me it does not make sense.`

[p0intman]

Saying people should not have an option simply so they will be more likely to log into the game and play with you - that is dictatorial. Plain and simple.

Saying you arent trying to force something down someone throat - when you are trying to force them to log into the game to play the way you want - that is being deluded.

Nothing I said was me being deluded.
I suspect you dont know the real definition of that word because as you used it in reference to me it does not make sense.`

You're deluded in your opinion that your opinion is the only correct one.

[Badjuju]

In what way does it make sense for warring factions to drop the fighting to run off and shoot each other in some gladiatorial sport while the war rages on elsewhere? <-- That question, that you yet again ignored.

Your attempts at insulting me, are par for the course with someone trying to "troll". I could go make fun of your spelling mistakes and insult everything from your neckbeard to your mother, but that's not very productive. Just like this conversation.

I do hope you enjoy the anti-social status you've earned while also being ignored.
It doesn't have to make sense because this is a game; especially when you consider that they said this would exist out side of the actual game, not effecting it at all. If you have no interest in it that is fine, but that dosn't mean others will feel the same. If it doesn't effect the core game and there are people out their that will enjoy it then why hate on it?

[AnamNantom]

It doesn't have to make sense because this is a game; especially when you consider that they said this would exist out side of the actual game, not effecting it at all. If you have no interest in it that is fine, but that dosn't mean others will feel the same. If it doesn't effect the core game and there are people out their that will enjoy it then why hate on it?

I think of Planetside 2 as more of a simulator in some degree. If not for anything, the fact that it's very large and so open and you have so many choices. It's one of those rare "sandbox" games I enjoy.

I don't hate on the MLG instance thing, though that is counter the seamless gameplay that they are trying to push in PS2. I hated the idea of outfits of opposing factions having secluded contests. Chewy inspired me with a war story of opposing forces literally stopping fighting to hang out during Christmas. That does sound nice.

I'm not trying to deny ppl things, but my vision for PS2 is one of congruence with the over arching story. Why have a backstory and hire a writer to rehash the original game's story if you are going to throw in things that will jar it?

I see gaming as the ultimate art form. The players and the developers work towards creating something alive, inspiring, wonderful. Mind you, part of that is shooting noobs and BuzzCutPsycho in the face ;) I love doing that stuff, but it's just a part of it.

Anyways, I'll just wait and see how SOE does on this. I got faith they are great ppl, I know they are, in fact. I just hope they do not let outside influence sully what is already shaping up to be the most excellent game I have ever played.

:) There. :P :groovy:

[bpostal]

Here's a quick rundown of what tournaments or esports will likely look like. If you hate it, great, don't participate, it's not forced in any way shape or form....

Except for the part where it splits the playerbase into a minimum of two sections. Those who care about eSports and those who couldn't give a shit.
True, those of us who don't care are not actively forced to participate but you're still fracturing the playerbase. (which is bad)

You might as well bring more servers online.

[Sledgecrushr]

Except for the part where it splits the playerbase into a minimum of two sections. Those who care about eSports and those who couldn't give a shit.
True, those of us who don't care are not actively forced to participate but you're still fracturing the playerbase. (which is bad)

You might as well bring more servers online.

Esports wouldnt be available on demand. The way higby explained it a tourney entrance would have to be worked at in game to qualify. For me this is another incentive for people to log in and play.

[Huntsab]

E-Sports in PS2 hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. The entire combat mechanics would have to be overhauled. This game rewards numbers not individual skill. What a joke.

[moosepoop]

The last time I saw Basti ingame in ps1, I farmed the ever loving fuck out of him at Anu on forseral.

an xp farmer talking about whats appropriate path for this game. with your arrogant and disrespectful attitude like that you dont have a say in anything in this game.

[AnamNantom]

Come on man, we all have a say. Even one who identifies with poop, from a Moose :) . This is a forum, a place of sharing and debate. We'll all just have to wait and see how they pull it off.

I'm looking to see how they make what they do with MLG lore-friendly. I'm also waiting to see more lore in the game, otherwise. I know they worked hard to establish why the NS and Empire specific things look the way they do, they got all that worked out, T-Ray explained it to me once and it's very cool. I just hope they continue that.

In case you don't know, there is lore:

http://wiki.planetside-universe.com/ps/Lore

[Babyfark McGeez]

Instanced "e-sports" matches are the worst possible idea for this game.

It would reduce the meaning of the persistant gameworld even more, and would drain population into what is basically another game - or atleast an unconnected part of the game that is PS2.
Add to that the chances that the rewards for competetive play would atleast be on par with anything you could get in the "persistant" part and you end up with barren continents turned into waiting lobbies (possible worst-case exaggeration, but you get the idea).

Instanced matches are so completely out of place here and are imo contradicting the basic premise of planetside; An ongoing, persistant, huge war. Therefore forcing this sounds like a very bad concept that twists this game too much for my liking without having any benefit for part i care for; The persistant ongoing war.

EDIT: One should the read what it is about before posting i guess. ;)
Only for occassional events sounds less horrible, only like a silly waste of resources to me. But i am not caring enough for that aslong as it stays small and off my radar.

And i'm keeping my rabble here incase i will need to quote it one day. :p

[Chewy]

What about calling it VR training sims?

If the show Tour of Duty is something to go by of how the Vietnam war was fought, there maybe something of use in it. According to the show both the US and VC armies traded troops so that each side could learn from them. ToD shown a VC doing his thing of cutting wires and crawling in the mud, without sound, to get within feet of a class of US troops within a FOB (forward operation base) to give them an example of how sneaky the VC can be. Im failing to find a real example of this at the moment but it sounds like something that can happen.

Couldn't something like be put in to PS2 to meet MLGs needs? The lore would say that it's just a VR sim based off the latest information on the other factions, when it's just normal PS2 gameplay within a special base made to have a clear winner. Could even spice it up with being able to customize the arena with skyboxes, what base to fight over, or be able to go buck wild and make the entire thing an old school VR style look from the 90s

10 MS-DOS games in 3 minutes! - YouTube

[AnamNantom]

What about calling it VR training sims?

If the show Tour of Duty is something to go by of how the Vietnam war was fought, there maybe something of use in it. According to the show both the US and VC armies traded troops so that each side could learn from them. ToD shown a VC doing his thing of cutting wires and crawling in the mud, without sound, to get within feet of a class of US troops within a FOB (forward operation base) to give them an example of how sneaky the VC can be. Im failing to find a real example of this at the moment but it sounds like something that can happen.

Couldn't something like be put in to PS2 to meet MLGs needs? The lore would say that it's just a VR sim based off the latest information on the other factions, when it's just normal PS2 gameplay within a special base made to have a clear winner. Could even spice it up with being able to customize the arena with skyboxes, what base to fight over, or be able to go buck wild and make the entire thing an old school VR style look from the 90s

10 MS-DOS games in 3 minutes! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCdfUsEzXyk)

I'd be cool with that. In fact, that whole 90's vr style thing, I'd love to see for infiltrators. Network hacking of different nodes for resources and other interesting things.

[basti]

I dont think he is, you might be though.



lol putting words in the mouths of others and calling people dictators because you disagree with us. get over yourself, and take a look at your own ego, boy.


The last time I saw Basti ingame in ps1, I farmed the ever loving fuck out of him at Anu on forseral. Murdered an entire galdrop he was in, and then he promptly rage-logged. He was slaughtered like AT often is. I've a feeling Basti would be very bad at outfit tournaments.

As for turning the game into a large cod/bf3 game without any end... too late. already done. outfit tournys will just continue the bastardisation of planetside.

so you want to do it this way? well, okay.

I think I know what incident at Anu you mean, I remember it well because I was yelling at the ops leader that the route we are about to take will kill us. I got ignored, we died and I logged in frustration.

but why don't we talk about the countless times you died to my thumper or the pulsars of my various alles? and i think that's your problem, you know you couldn't compete with any of them. You would be left out of the whole esport thing, unable to anything about it. and you can't accept that there are toys we get to play with but you don't.

just another spoiled brat...

[DirtyBird]

Baiting!! popcorn:

[p0intman]

so you want to do it this way? well, okay.

I think I know what incident at Anu you mean, I remember it well because I was yelling at the ops leader that the route we are about to take will kill us. I got ignored, we died and I logged in frustration.

but why don't we talk about the countless times you died to my thumper or the pulsars of my various alles? and i think that's your problem, you know you couldn't compete with any of them. You would be left out of the whole esport thing, unable to anything about it. and you can't accept that there are toys we get to play with but you don't.

just another spoiled brat...
I'm so quoting this and saving it to a file for later. This is one of those quotes I'm just going to let sit and smile at, because in this case.. I know more than you and its just obvious bait. Don't worry, it'll be answered in due time.

[Baneblade]

Esports are the least of PS2's issues.

[Sonny]

Having read through the thread, I personally don't see how integration with MLG will destroy Planetside 2, 'cheapen' the game experience or detract from the experience of those who just want to play the base game (i.e. lowering the importance of fighting for your empire, taking and holding bases etc.).

In fact, I think the competitions will benefit the community, as the competitions will force outfits to train more frequently within the game itself, meaning more soldiers fighting on your server and for your faction. Also, many of those like me who cannot spend as much time as they would like playing due to real-life commitments will enjoy watching top-class players showing them how the game should be played individually/tactically and strategically. Finally, I think streaming all the matches to the masses will bring a lot more new players into PS 2, which can only be a good thing.

However, I do see a few dangers. The matches shouldn't happen more than say, once a week, so that masses of players don't regularly get sucked away from the main servers. Also, as many people have brought up already, I struggle to see how the most important aspects of PS 2 gameplay i.e. the mass battles can be brought to the screen in the form of an easy-to-follow and exciting sports match. Friday night ops style won't work, as it is often impossible to see what is actually going on, or who is winning.

Finally:



I'm looking to see how they make what they do with MLG lore-friendly. I'm also waiting to see more lore in the game, otherwise. I know they worked hard to establish why the NS and Empire specific things look the way they do, they got all that worked out, T-Ray explained it to me once and it's very cool. I just hope they continue that.

To be honest, I don't see how these 'outfit vs outfit' tournaments can be fitted into the lore... unless you imagine that the factions occasionally take a break from the endless slaughter to hold gladatorial-style combat for the entertainment of their citizens. But I think that's a stretch to coherently fit within the back story. So MLG may sacrifice involvement within the PS 2 world, but hell, it's a game, so maybe that's a small sacrifice to make when considering the benefits?

Sonny

[Punker]

Esports would only work in a balanced environment. Weapons, Maps, #'s on each team. This is why there are blacklists and whitelists in most ladders.

If SOE are going to introduce this, i would hope they put some serious hours into balancing weapons / vehicles in the game. Or at the very least force common pool in the matches - Because without an even playing field the whole notion of this seems like a bad joke.

[MrBloodworth]

Let me get this right.

SOE puts out a loose plan with a bunch of stuff in it.

p0intman does not like one part of it, so sends a tweet.

p0intman gets a reasonable response, but not the one he wanted.

So, all this equals that SOE does not listen to ANYONE'S suggestions EVER.


Got it.

[p0intman]

Let me get this right.

SOE puts out a loose plan with a bunch of stuff in it.

p0intman does not like one part of it, so sends a tweet.

p0intman gets a reasonable response, but not the one he wanted.

So, all this equals that SOE does not listen to ANYONE'S suggestions EVER.


Got it.
did I get a response? I didn't actually pay attention after that.

[MrBloodworth]

I thought the evidence was clear to you. That's why you felt justified to create this thread about the oppressive regime that is SOE. After all, the had the audacity to make a game you may just enjoy, they just didn't use your ideas. So that means they do not listen to anyone, at all, ever.

We should just burn it down now. All with in the span of what, 48 hours since the roadmap was published??

[p0intman]

I thought the evidence was clear to you. That's why you felt justified to create this thread about the oppressive regime that is SOE. After all, the had the audacity to make a game you may just enjoy, they just didn't use your ideas. So that means they do not listen to anyone, at all, ever.

We should just burn it down now. All with in the span of what, 48 hours since the roadmap was published??

I'm going to ignore the words you're putting in my mouth, such as saying that because they don't listen to *my* ideas, they don't listen at all.

What I AM saying is that the mlg announcement along with specific items in the roadmap says that in large part, despite hilarious unpopularity, they really don't intend to listen very much.

I've actually watched the trends with certain items on it for the last couple of days, and despite the popular opinion that a section of the playerbase wants outfit tournaments for esports... I don't see it. It has actually gone and become more and more unpopular. As of last night, it had a -83 rating, and yesterday morning it had a -70, today it has -88. If I recall (i was searching for the news item but cant find it after a cursory search) they were calling this a popularity contest of game design. Even if you take it as a SAMPLE of what a larger playerbase thinks and scale it up, more people dislike the esports idea than welcome it.

I really dont feel like I need to say more than that and that despite its unpopular status, SOE will push ahed with it anyway, just like they did BFRs in the first game. We all know how that turned out, don't we?

Take it for what it is, but don't put words in my mouth that aren't there to begin with.

[MrBloodworth]

You didn't like the answer given = They don't listen at all.

We got it. Fight the good fight.

[belch]

Re: Fitting outfit vs. Outfit fights into lore

Small, set piece engagements seem easy to explain. While the regular, conventional forces are tied up with the existing strategic obectives, a smaller outift sized element gets tasked to capture/reconnoiter/etc. an objective that was previously unknown/recently determined to be of value. Shifting forces to support long term engagement would be unwieldy, maybe even undoable in the short term...so an outfit get's "tasked" by the empire to seize/whatever.

[Sleepy]

The irritating element of the OP is not the SOE staff listening per se, but rather their utter dismissal of solutions found from PS1.

PS2's Dev team are all likeable, IMO. Nothing to see here chaps. However, it's the Masochistic pandering many of them exhibit when it comes to veterans/concepts of the Original game. Marketing 101. Say it enough times and the people will parrot the message ("we are listening" x 1000):

- Surveys from years ago to the PS1 community involving what we'd like to see as improvements to the game, whether it be iterative or direct additions/deletions of gameplay elements. Result: the only tangible elements which have returned are the actual Faction/Continent names. Base capture mechanics, continent size, vehicle mechanics (dedicated driver), weapon variety, Faction-specific weaponry, Generators, Cont Locking, Population locking, Sancs, Communication tools (most players in PS2 still use "yell" for coordination); the list goes on - all axed completely or replaced with rudimentary equivalents (stand and cap); ie, what we got was not PS1 + updated gunplay and much needed additions, but a bare bones MMOBF3.

- Countless answers by Devs to concepts/solutions from PS1 to solve or improve particular issues in PS2: "This is a different game. We love our unmatched PS1 community though! We aren't going to implement ground AMS though (remember this nonsense from Beta - took a metric ton of forum posts to get that through to them) It's a different game." Rinse and repeat.

I even had a direct response from Smedley on the Beta Forums (Rustcan) when I posited this faux-feedback loop with regards to PS1 concepts and veterans. Stated simply why ask Vets (during early-ish Beta) if you're going to ignore their commentary from PS1 systems. Yes, it is indeed a different game. No one is under any illusion which predecessor title formed the lion's share of PS2's direction. Yes, SOE is a business and has attempted to make MMOBF3.

Yet PS1 has much to offer as improvements even to this model. If the Devs keep asking for feedback, yet respond "it's a different game" when any PS1 ideas are put forth, some interviewer please call them out on that crap and have them elucidate exactly HOW. Don't patronize fans of the titular game (Planetside) by this 'oh we love you but NO' B.S. I like the gunplay of PS2, but there are ZERO siege and Metagame mechanics present, which is where they done goofed. It probably cannot be fixed until 2-3 more continents are added. When they are, PS1 feedback will be of great use, and hopefully they'll realize that it doesn't have to be such a different game after all.

[Revanmug]

There's no shoving of anything in anyone's throat.

You are shoving it because you stand firmly against it for the unique reason of "lore and RP" and have been hammering this everywhere you go. You have the right to love that but very few does.


Sandbox is a style of game in which minimal character limitations are placed on the gamer, allowing the gamer to roam and change a virtual world at will. In contrast to a progression-style game, a sandbox game emphasizes roaming and allows a gamer to select tasks. Instead of featuring segmented areas or numbered levels, a sandbox game usually occurs in a “world” to which the gamer has full access from start to finish.
- http://www.techopedia.com/definition/3952/sandbox

Isn't having instances going against the sandbox idea because instances are segmented areas?

Segmented area that you can access whenever YOU want. There is nothing forcing you to go there at any moment.

-Esamir, Indar and Amerish are all segmented area. Are you saying PS2 ain't a sandbox game currently?
-Skyrim got 2398467324 almost copy paste dongeon segmented all around the world. Are you saying TES games aren't sandbox?
-Minecraft has many many server which each people's world but can be access by anyone if privilege given. Are you saying Minecraft ain't sandbox?

You put a definition up and you don't even bother reading it. Did you saw the "usually?" Can't you put 2 n 2 and realise segmented area as like most game have to do a section of the map/dongeon than travel to the next area without having much choice in what else they could do?

The CHOICE to do what you want WHEN you want is what create sandbox games. Not how it is done.

Please, RP all you want but stop using terms you do not understand as excuse to support your argument. It is the worst and the most annoying thing.

[p0intman]

The irritating element of the OP is not the SOE staff listening per se, but rather their utter dismissal of solutions found from PS1.

PS2's Dev team are all likeable, IMO. Nothing to see here chaps. However, it's the Masochistic pandering many of them exhibit when it comes to veterans/concepts of the Original game. Marketing 101. Say it enough times and the people will parrot the message ("we are listening" x 1000):

- Surveys from years ago to the PS1 community involving what we'd like to see as improvements to the game, whether it be iterative or direct additions/deletions of gameplay elements. Result: the only tangible elements which have returned are the actual Faction/Continent names. Base capture mechanics, continent size, vehicle mechanics (dedicated driver), weapon variety, Faction-specific weaponry, Generators, Cont Locking, Population locking, Sancs, Communication tools (most players in PS2 still use "yell" for coordination); the list goes on - all axed completely or replaced with rudimentary equivalents (stand and cap); ie, what we got was not PS1 + updated gunplay and much needed additions, but a bare bones MMOBF3.

- Countless answers by Devs to concepts/solutions from PS1 to solve or improve particular issues in PS2: "This is a different game. We love our unmatched PS1 community though! We aren't going to implement ground AMS though (remember this nonsense from Beta - took a metric ton of forum posts to get that through to them) It's a different game." Rinse and repeat.

I even had a direct response from Smedley on the Beta Forums (Rustcan) when I posited this faux-feedback loop with regards to PS1 concepts and veterans. Stated simply why ask Vets (during early-ish Beta) if you're going to ignore their commentary from PS1 systems. Yes, it is indeed a different game. No one is under any illusion which predecessor title formed the lion's share of PS2's direction. Yes, SOE is a business and has attempted to make MMOBF3.

Yet PS1 has much to offer as improvements even to this model. If the Devs keep asking for feedback, yet respond "it's a different game" when any PS1 ideas are put forth, some interviewer please call them out on that crap and have them elucidate exactly HOW. Don't patronize fans of the titular game (Planetside) by this 'oh we love you but NO' B.S. I like the gunplay of PS2, but there are ZERO siege and Metagame mechanics present, which is where they done goofed. It probably cannot be fixed until 2-3 more continents are added. When they are, PS1 feedback will be of great use, and hopefully they'll realize that it doesn't have to be such a different game after all.
dude, ive tried to explain that so many times, but they don't get it. its pointless. they just argue for the sake of arguing without pause to think about it because being right is more important to their epeen wagging. if any of soe reads this, take a good long look at it, because I'm done trying. I don't need to prove anything to anyone, for any reason.

fuck this.

[WeretigerRei]

Lots of reasons, we absolutely want to know the sentiment about the ideas, and we will evaluate features based on those numbers. For instance, we will be specifically discussing the feasibility of bringing some of the later and more popular ideas forward in the schedule to get done faster based on community results. Once players can submit ideas (which hopefully is pretty soon) it will be a great method for us to use find ingenious ideas that might be a good fit for the game. And, in some cases, if ideas are unpopular we might reconsider them. We're not going to base our development schedule 100% on a popularity contest, that's never been the intention. Similarly, when players can submit their ideas and the #1 idea is "make all player characters into dinosaurs" with 50,000,000 votes, it still probably won't happen.

Firefall is using a particular thing called Uservoice (If I recall, let me double check that.) that allows players to post and vote upon various game mechanics. Each person is given 5 votes, and can place up to 3 votes on player or dev made topics/changes/whathaveyou until it is decided to YES or NO that item, at which point, the vote(s) are refunded and allowed to be put elsewhere.

Whether or not this is feasible for you guys is up in the air, but it's a pretty slick system. Mind you, their game is still in closed beta so the numbers are far smaller than what you folks are dealing with, but you see what I mean.

[Baneblade]

The irritating element of the OP is not the SOE staff listening per se, but rather their utter dismissal of solutions found from PS1.

PS2's Dev team are all likeable, IMO. Nothing to see here chaps. However, it's the Masochistic pandering many of them exhibit when it comes to veterans/concepts of the Original game. Marketing 101. Say it enough times and the people will parrot the message ("we are listening" x 1000):

- Surveys from years ago to the PS1 community involving what we'd like to see as improvements to the game, whether it be iterative or direct additions/deletions of gameplay elements. Result: the only tangible elements which have returned are the actual Faction/Continent names. Base capture mechanics, continent size, vehicle mechanics (dedicated driver), weapon variety, Faction-specific weaponry, Generators, Cont Locking, Population locking, Sancs, Communication tools (most players in PS2 still use "yell" for coordination); the list goes on - all axed completely or replaced with rudimentary equivalents (stand and cap); ie, what we got was not PS1 + updated gunplay and much needed additions, but a bare bones MMOBF3.

- Countless answers by Devs to concepts/solutions from PS1 to solve or improve particular issues in PS2: "This is a different game. We love our unmatched PS1 community though! We aren't going to implement ground AMS though (remember this nonsense from Beta - took a metric ton of forum posts to get that through to them) It's a different game." Rinse and repeat.

I even had a direct response from Smedley on the Beta Forums (Rustcan) when I posited this faux-feedback loop with regards to PS1 concepts and veterans. Stated simply why ask Vets (during early-ish Beta) if you're going to ignore their commentary from PS1 systems. Yes, it is indeed a different game. No one is under any illusion which predecessor title formed the lion's share of PS2's direction. Yes, SOE is a business and has attempted to make MMOBF3.

Yet PS1 has much to offer as improvements even to this model. If the Devs keep asking for feedback, yet respond "it's a different game" when any PS1 ideas are put forth, some interviewer please call them out on that crap and have them elucidate exactly HOW. Don't patronize fans of the titular game (Planetside) by this 'oh we love you but NO' B.S. I like the gunplay of PS2, but there are ZERO siege and Metagame mechanics present, which is where they done goofed. It probably cannot be fixed until 2-3 more continents are added. When they are, PS1 feedback will be of great use, and hopefully they'll realize that it doesn't have to be such a different game after all.

Yep.

[Hamma]

This thread has run it's course. Several members have received infractions and bans off this thread. Time for a few time outs.