Don't Nerf Magriders Buff Prowler and Vanguard

[grimey]

First off I DO NOT drive a Magrider I drive a Prowler.

Magriders according to Devs are working as designed and their straffing agility is not going to get nerfed.

They did mention nerfing their front armor or at least the front armor defensive upgrade, and this should not be done here's why.

Yes it is easier for a magrider to keep his front armor where he is aiming but as has been pointed out already the lack of a turret also means that they need to turn around completely to face someone attacking their rear so its a completely balanced trade off IMHO.

This also is balanced because people who choose to get front armor as their defensive option lose out on other abilities like stealth, side armor, top armor, ect. so I believe this is balanced as well.

The Devs also talked about buffing the Vanguards shells velocity and I think this is a great step towards making landing shots at distance against magriders a lot easier and everything else for that matter. PLEASE give this buff to the prowler as well.

A lot of people consider the prowler the worst MBT of the three when it comes to MBT vs MBT because you have to land 2 shots to do the same damage however having the 2 shots also makes the prowler the best at killing Infantry.

There was also a proposed buff to prowler's HEAT and AP damage. I don't think this is necessary and instead offer this as an alternative instead and a solution to the recoil between the two shots making hitting ranged targets easier.

Allow the prowler to fire BOTH cannons at the same time.

This could be done simply by allowing a weapon fire switch that by default is the b button that switches you between full auto, burst, single shot with guns now makes the prowler able to be single shot to kill more infantry or a double shot to hit tanks easier with both shots.

A more complex way to accomplish this would be to make the right and left cannons seperate in the same way that max arms are seperate so right cannon is right click and left cannon is left click.

This would be more natural use of the cannon and would even possibly allow the mixing of cannons which could be interesting. Arm yourself with one AP and one HE cannon would be pretty sweet.

The only problem with the second option is where do you put the optics button which I would gladly move to my thumb button or even a keyboard button for that kind of gameplay.

There is also the problem of the change in the certs and changing the cannon options for buying but if this is a problem then just leave them as paired AP, HEAT, or HE only cannons but please keep the seperately opperating cannons.

Right now most people consider the prowler's unique lock down ability to be the worst of the 3 but if you give us this unique trait I think it would make it an even more badass tank that would have the flexibilty to take on infantry and tanks as well in an interesting way.

[Neutral Calypso]

My name is Neutralysis, and I approve this message.

[typhaon]

Don't want to rain on the Prowler pity parade, but I think Higby said yesterday (in the AT stream) that Prowlers were performing almost exactly where they wanted(I think he implied a smidge below Magriders)... it was Vanguards that were in need of some help.

I also didn't interpret comments about the Magrider to mean SOE would never nerf it... just that strafing would remain a part of the package... doesn't mean strafing speed might not be changed.

[Rothnang]

I personally think Vanguards are pretty damn powerful because they have the shield that grants them pretty much an automatic win in a close range fight with another tank.

The Enforcer could use a buff to give it a bigger blast radius.

[Micro]

I don't think the Vanguard really needs any buff, but the Prowler needs some love.
I myself drive a Mag, and agility is what it is all about! That makes it unique! Not overpowered! It might seems overpowered, because it cannot rotate it's gun, and therefore Mag-Drivers automatically turn their back (the weakest armor is there) away.

[almalino]

the lack of a turret also means that they need to turn around completely to face someone attacking their rear so its a completely balanced trade off IMHO.

Are you trolling? Right?

Magrider need to turn the body and Vanguard needs to turn the turret for that. What is the difference in turning the turret and the body especially when Magrider body is floating and easily rotated?

Also, Magrider by turning the body face the strong front to the attacker. Profit!


IMHO, Magraqider is a big floating turret that can strafe and must be nerfed. Or other must be buffed somehow.

[grimey]

As other people have pointed out the other 2 factions have special abilities that make them OP in their own way and unique with the Vanguard shield, and the agility of the Magrider

And the prowler has 2 guns...

They do the same damage as one shot from the other tanks so this could or could not be a good thing I have to hit twice to do the same damage but a miss is not as big of a deal for me as well.

The part that sucks is the recoil between shots makes this reaiming takes too much time and this is magnified the further the range which is why as a prowler i prefere to engage as closely as I can along with the fact I have a vulcan.

The fact that the prowler has 2 cannons is a very unique trait for a tank I mean seriously how many tanks have you heard of having 2 main turret guns, but the way they are implemented is not very unique because its now like having just an extra round to shoot before reloading.

Make it like a Max so I can shoot both at the same time or one after the other and it would really be something cool and unique about the prowler.

The current possible buff the prowler will possibly get is an increase to HEAT and AP rounds which would make my HEAT shots even more hell for the infantry which this nerf mag/ buff prowler debate is about MBT vs MBT not MBT vs Infantry.

While a buff to damage would help out the prowler you could keep the damage where it is and if you can double fire that would increase the DPS to tanks because you would not have the half a second between shots and the recoil between shots anymore.

This would not really effect the dps for infantry much In fact in double fire you would lose Killing power for infantry because a single shell is enough to kill one so you would be using twice the shots for the same damage.

This double fire option is also balanced by the fact that when you put both your eggs in one basket a miss sucks even more on the other hand a hit is even better which adds a great level of risk reward as well.

[grimey]

No I am not trolling about the magrider not having a turret.

There are situations where not having a turret is bad




Prowler---------------------------Prowler



----------------Magrider


In a flanking position as you see in order for the magrider to engage either prowler he needs to turn his body towards one which exposes his side and rear armor to the other one.

A prowler or vanguard could simply back up while targeting one and keep his front armor facing both. Also as a prowler if there are infantry that get behind me all I have to do is turn my turret around real quick and kill them and keep my front armor facing the majority of the threats.

My turret can rotate faster then a Magrider can turn and if they were to turn around to kill the single infantry that is behind them they would leave their rear open to attacks hitting them in the front which makes the Magrider the tank that requires a second gunner more then the others.

[Mordelicius]

Magriders win easy because they can hit easy and they can't be hit easily. That's it.

They have all the advantages.

They can snipe easy mode long range with perfect accuracy.
They can't be hit long range with stupendous mobility.

The Vanu can't have the best of everything. They have to pick one or get one. So there are two choices the Devs can do: Hit their ability to survive or ability to kill:

1) Lower their suvivability

Keep the turn rate which is very fast, but nerf the strafe rate by 75%.
Heavy assaults dumbfire Vanguard and Prowlers with ease.
AV turrets in bases do the same, with ease.

Worthless "buffs" on tanks arent' enough. There are so much more factors. Tank vs Heavy Assault Dumb-fire. Tank vs Anti-Vehicle base turret. The reason why the Vanu easily captures a base is their Tank (and I use that word loosely because its a Tank/Artillery/Sniper platform), take out the turrets long range while it helplessly tries to hit back. By the time the projectile is even halfway, the magrider has already moved and firing back.

Against infantry, these magriders can avoid dumb-fire rockets like nothing. They move in any direction. Making a straight-line shot is not just going to hit. I'm a great shot with the Shrike and Mags just laugh it off in medium to long range. Even in short range, they can magically pull off a twisting fish move. That stuff cannot be done with a Vanguard or a Prowler.

If they aren't going hit the strafe rate. Make all sides vulnerable like the backsides AND lower their HP by 25%. In addition, give them 50% less resistance to small arms fire.

OR

2) Lower their DPS significantly.

Lower their damage by 25%. Then, Double or Triple their damage dropoff rate depending on the curve. Halve their damage to Base turrets. Lastly, Halve their damage to Infantry.

The same type of players who defended the Liberators and ESFs are now defending the Magriders. They are the best in long range DPS and survivability by a mile. That's what matters here. In medium and short, they still have the advantages, although not as much long ranged ones.

All Magriders have to do is find a hill or a small rock. Poke out their turret while strafing and fire with tremendous accuracy! Can a Tank, Heavy Assault or a Anti-Tank turret have the time or reflex to hit back at such small window?

Even in an open field, they can move in 8 directions. A Tank/HA/Turret will have to guess the acceleration/speed and direction of the Mag + the dropoff of their projectiles in realtime. Take into account the, range, then travel speed of the projectiles and the responsiveness of the Mag and you got yourself an easy win joke for the Vanu.

Even will all the Liberator and ESF nerfs and AA buffs they are still strong and capable. Magriders need a massive nerf soon. Why don't players complain about Vanguards and Prowlers incessantly? It's because they are easy to destroy. Magriders are difficult to destroy while they kill with little effort. They can't have the best of both worlds. This game need balanced factions so the population and not get destroyed by all the continent, faction and server migrations.

[LoliLoveFart]

Someone can't into assymetrical balancing.
You wan't the unique aspect of the magrider nullified or you want the magrider to lose in a 1v1 scenario. Just had to paraphrase for you.

If the prowler could fire both barrels at once it would be the highest dps tank in the game. Increasing muzzle velocity would make hitting mags at average tank stand off distance easier.

If they made Vannies actually be able to move forward faster instead of their crawl now it would be a step in the right direction. But saying that im just regurgitating what most people are saying.

Actually you know what. Give everyone the exact same vehicles, exact same weapons just different colours. People would still find a way to bitch. :lol:

[Sunrock]

The only thing I would like to see they do to the prowler is to make the recoil reset to the exact position it was in when the fire was triggered and it would be an über tank as you would actually have real use for the anchor mode then. With the anchor mode you could then turn the prowler into a artillery piece.

However the prowler is exelent for close quarter tank Vs tank action. A magrider have no chance in hell against a prowler if you manage to get within 10 meters of the maggy. And if you drive the prowler into the side of the magrider so you half lift it up it can't turn at all and you just blast it to hell.

[ShadetheDruid]

And if you drive the prowler into the side of the magrider so you half lift it up it can't turn at all and you just blast it to hell.

You can do the same thing with Lightnings, except because of the shape you can actually get yourself wedged nicely underneath the Magrider (at which point, your cannon clips into the Magrider, which is hilarious). :D

You have less margin for error though, since if you get it wrong, the Magrider will just wreck you and your paper armour.

[Dougnifico]

I on board with giving the prowler a cert to fire both barrels at once. This would really be an awesome addition that would get rid of the problem of prowlers being slightly under powered. Its really not even a big change.

[grimey]

Dumb fire rockets from long to medium range are so easy to dodge in a prowler and if they hit you in the front armor it does like 10% damage.

The only time I ever fear getting hit by a rocket is if the infantry can hit me in the back which for the most part means either I did something stupid like rushed into a base and they are shooting me from behind on the top of a building or they did something really badass or sneaky like hotdropped behind me or gal dropped or whatever.

The only time I really fall back behind cover is when I get locked and there are a lot of heavys because I know that it will take a certain amount of time for me to fall back to cover and if there are enough of them even my front armor won't save me after a point.

Heavy with rockets are best used as a geruilla warfare way to punish foolish tanks by 2 shotting them in the tail pipe.

Stop trying to engage tanks with a frontal assault with rockets its a deterant at best.

Now lets back to the topic. If they did make the prowler a double shot to possibly balance the dps you could increase the reload speed by about half a second to make up for the half second you normally would be spending between shots.

Increased shot velocity would be great for both prowler and vanguard and maybe even AT turret. And I do think that the vanguard needs at least a little better acceleration even with the fact that they have the best front armor and a shield.

The Magrider is going to stay the way it is just accept it and Yes it is the easiest for a noob to use because it is not a traditional tank but honestly I'd rather take on a magrider then a vanguard any day as far as MBT vs MBT because of that shield and the vanguard hurts

The magrider shots are SO visable and don't move that fast and can be dodged with some experience.

When you go describing what the nerfs should be first you should ask yourself "If this nerf happened to me what would I think about it" I mean seriously you want to nerf their straffing speed by 75% and lower their HP by 25% and even make them able to take damage from small arms???

If my tank lost 25% health and started taking damage to small arms which btw no tank takes any I would be freaking pissed off. Or if sundenly my tank can't kill infantry by 50% on top of a 25% damage negative with serious damage drop offs making me engage infantry at 50m and I get instagibbed by infantry that want nothing better then to be a one man army capable of 2 shotting a tank in the front armor and laughing off a tank shell.

Do you have any experience playing as a tank can you even comprehend how much these suggested nerfs would suck. Large nerfs are what piss people off to the point of leaving and it becomes a visous cycle where everyone complains about the last thing that killed them constantly.

Instead of these nerfs we should buff the things that it kills too well if it even is a real problem and not just a big whin fest.

[Sunrock]

Instead of these nerfs we should buff the things that it kills too well if it even is a real problem and not just a big whin fest.

IMO any changes in the game right now related to any direct combat mech. IE weapons and vehicles are because of a big whine feast.

Tip of the day: Improve your personal skill in the game instead of crying for nerfs.

Having that sad there are some changes that I would not mind to see in the game to some weapons and vehicles... But that is because I think it would improve the quality of the game play rather then the need to nerf/boost something because its over powered or to week.

[Figment]

Or they could have just copied the tank mechanics from PS1...

You know, where Magriders being too powerful would be a ridiculous complaint and the only semi-valid complaint was Prowler's requiring an extra gunner for AA capacity (even if it had the highest AV and AI DPS without that extra gunner).

[AThreatToYou]

Allow the prowler to fire BOTH cannons at the same time.

This could be done simply by allowing a weapon fire switch that by default is the b button that switches you between full auto, burst, single shot with guns now makes the prowler able to be single shot to kill more infantry or a double shot to hit tanks easier with both shots.

A more complex way to accomplish this would be to make the right and left cannons seperate in the same way that max arms are seperate so right cannon is right click and left cannon is left click.

This would be more natural use of the cannon and would even possibly allow the mixing of cannons which could be interesting. Arm yourself with one AP and one HE cannon would be pretty sweet.


PLEASE do this.

[psijaka]

I don't play TR let alone drive a Prowler, but I do agree that both cannons should be fired simultaneously, in the same way that a MAX can by clicking both left and right mouse buttons. I'm not sure whether any nerf to damage per round would be required; if the damage per round > 0.5 x Vanguard round, then perhaps.

Seems totally illogical to have dual barrels if you can't fire them both at once!

[Kerrec]

What I would do:

1) Buff AP damage and projectile velocity for all factions.
2) Prowler lock down mode: Shields the rear so it has the same armor as the front. It can't move. It's like an AP turret. We all know how easy those are to hit/kill.
3) Prowler cannons: Reload independantly. Fire one cannon, it reloads while you manoeuver to fire the second cannon. Adjust reload speeds as required for balance.
4) Magriders: Since they float, they should get pushed and spun when they DO get hit. The amount of push and spin will depend on the velocity of the projectile. A hit directly at center of mass results in a push. A glancing blow away from center of mass will cause the magrider to spin a bit. Not huge amounts. IMO, it's dumb that a floating platform can take direct hits and keep their aim on target without any problems.
5) Prowler & Vanguard: Stabilize the turret so it doesn't bounce so much while driving!

[Mietz]

I drive a prowler and I don't agree with the suggestion of firing both barrels, at least not in the form described.

According tho these stats:

http://i.imgur.com/5nzZ9.png

A dual hit from the Prowler will do the same damage as the Vanguard. The balancing currently is that the Prowler needs a bit more personal skill to land those two shots due to recoil (and non-centered barrels, but i see this as a bug and not a feature).

Making the Prowler able to shoot both barrels at the same time would make it hit like a Vanguard and, especially when deployed, completely OP.

Take into account the reload time that is ~half of the Vanguard, add to that deploy reload decrease of 48% at max certs, and you have a situation where the Prowler can easily put out ~1600 damage per second in anchored mode.

It would absolutely wreck shit before any tank could react to the damage and try to evade, even Mags at long range.

The Prowler already has the highest DPS, so it would stack and amplify it without refire time.

[Thunderhawk]

I just wish everyone who claims they want an empire to be nerfed to just play that empire for a while, and if still thinking they are better, then be allowed to post a Nerf thread....

My rules would be like this:-

1. If you haven't played the opposing empire you are asking to be nerfed for 5 solid hours, then all your "nerf" posts get instantly deleted.

2. If you have played for 5 hours and still want to feel it necessary to write a Nerf thread, then by all means write a reason why and a suggested solution.

Failure to adhere to either of those 2 rules on PSU forums get's you instantly banned for life.

Hamma chop chop apply these post haste !!

[Baneblade]

The only thing my Vanguard needs is a cannon that can hit a Flash driving away from me in a straight line.

[Sunrock]

The only thing my Vanguard needs is a cannon that can hit a Flash driving away from me in a straight line.

Hehehehe... With a bit of more practice you can.

[Chaff]

There is too much crying in this game. Let the VS have the best MBT in the game. I don't like how they can spam a base, but I'd leave their tank alone.

[almalino]

The only thing my Vanguard needs is a cannon that can hit a Flash driving away from me in a straight line.

That would be OP. And, actually you already can do this is Flash driver will stop to scratch his back and to repair his Flash. Though, not 100% guaranteed hit if Flash driver do all this fast :)

[Rockit]

There is too much crying in this game. Let the VS have the best MBT in the game. I don't like how they can spam a base, but I'd leave their tank alone.

No kidding man. I can hardly look at official forums anymore because all it has become is a buff/nerf discussion. People need to learn to improvise, adapt and overcome. In various situations balance differences are going to change back and forth. Learn to find the advantageous position before your enemy does and feel good about yourself for achieving something you want someone else (the devs) to do for you.

[almalino]

I myself , actually, do not care about Magriders because I play like 4 hours a week. But those dedicated players and platoon leaders from TR and NC - I feel for them.

[almalino]

No kidding man. I can hardly look at official forums anymore because all it has become is a buff/nerf discussion. People need to learn to improvise, adapt and overcome. In various situations balance differences are going to change back and forth. Learn to find the advantageous position before your enemy does and feel good about yourself for achieving something you want someone else (the devs) to do for you.

Indeed, learn to play!!!

/ sarcasm

[Badjuju]

Are you trolling? Right?

Magrider need to turn the body and Vanguard needs to turn the turret for that. What is the difference in turning the turret and the body especially when Magrider body is floating and easily rotated?

Also, Magrider by turning the body face the strong front to the attacker. Profit!


IMHO, Magraqider is a big floating turret that can strafe and must be nerfed. Or other must be buffed somehow.

There are trade offs. With a rotating turret you can control which direction your ass faces while attacking. This is particularly important if you are getting flanked from both sides. To shoot at guys to your right you have to expose your ass to the guys on your left.

Personally I would take the Vanguard any day. You have to play smarter with it as it isn't as forgiving but the elevated+rotating turret pays off IMO. Not to mention lots of armor and high damage. I would like to see the projectile speed increased however. That is it's biggest weakness currently. Well that and people think they can play rambo in it, charging ahead of infantry. I think this causes the biggest miss-conception over the Mag. It's agility makes it very forgiving when you over extend in a game where many people don't play smart and over extend every time they get in a vehicle. I am not saying tweeks are not in order, however I don't believe it is as imbalanced as people make it out to be. I would say increase the projectile speed of the Vanguard. If not that then slightly reduce the damage the mag does as Ubi (sorry cant remember name) suggested.

[Baneblade]

Hehehehe... With a bit of more practice you can.

Not if he keeps outrunning the projectile :p

That would be OP. And, actually you already can do this is Flash driver will stop to scratch his back and to repair his Flash. Though, not 100% guaranteed hit if Flash driver do all this fast :)

See, this guy got it.

I'd say double the projectile velocity, maybe even add a push back to compensate (even from broadside firing tanks).

[thegreekboy]

I don't think the Vanguard really needs any buff, but the Prowler needs some love.
I myself drive a Mag, and agility is what it is all about! That makes it unique! Not overpowered! It might seems overpowered, because it cannot rotate it's gun, and therefore Mag-Drivers automatically turn their back (the weakest armor is there) away.

Well theres also that thing where the difference in armor between the tanks is negligible, yet you can also dodge every shot of ours past 100m

[Mietz]

Well theres also that thing where the difference in armor between the tanks is negligible, yet you can also dodge every shot of ours past 100m

Theres also that thing that a I can mine mags in the rear consistently.

I've taken out whole tank-columns that way, especially at the Crossroads hill where they will just strafe forward-backwards.

Hotdrop with engineer/HA from ESF, the first 2 mags are free kills, if their friends notice, they will likely win, but most of the time they don't get it that the Mag next to them exploded not from Crown shelling but a mine.

[grimey]

Yes the Prowler has the most DPS if you can land both shots as it does about half the damage of a vanguard per shot meanwhile the vanguard has a 4 second reload and the prowler has a 2.5 second reload AND it has a .5 second delay between shots and lets not forget about having to reaim meanwhile all a vanguard or mag has to do is reaim while their tank is reloading.

If the Devs wanted they could increase the reload speed when in double fire mode to balance this out and make it take 3 seconds to reload and it would be the same fire rate.

And if these changes made it so after someone dumps almost 2k certs into anchor to get 48% reload speed and becomes a powerful stationary turret then maybe our unique ability would actually be worth getting instead of being some sort of situational waste of a utility slot that it currently is.

How many Vanguards get shield probably most of them I know if I was running one thats what I would get.

How many Magriders use magburner there's a ton of those too.

How many Prowlers get lock down?? like maybe 10% and its because it sucks and is very situational and completely negates the bonus of having the fastest tank by making it stay still.

Vanguard shield builds even more on its strength of having the best frontal armor and the magburner ands even more acceleration to their agility and lets them get into places other tanks can't reach.

Right now the devs are going to buff both the vanguard and the prowler and from what they have suggested they are going to increase the velocity of the vanguard and increase the damage of the prowler so now if I can land both shots ill be out DPSing even more if 2 prowler shots = 110% of one vanguard shell. And this is if they only buff the damage by 10%.

If they give double shot to prowler and slow down reload speed and keep the prowlers velocity and give the velocity buff to vanguard then the prowler will still out dps because the reload speed would be slightly faster and would hit as hard but the vanguard would have better damage at further ranges from the velocity making those far shots easier to make especially on mags.