Is the AV MAX overpowered?

[psijaka]

I've noticed a couple of VS complaints that the NC AV MAX is overpowered in the recent Magrider nerf thread, and, as someone who plays this loadout a lot, I've sometimes thought this myself, but only against infantry.

So let's have a look at the data (from https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Amnj8jnZLDIOdEx6azNNdVozRmxLVkI2WnZmS2NqV 1E&gid=1 )

I've added the DPS column at the end, simply by dividing the damage per mag by the time cycle columns.

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee391/psijaka/MAXAVsummary_zps22745514.png

From this we see that the TR MAX has the highest fire rate, with the lowest damage per round, and has significantly the best DPS. This seems to fit well with the general TR weapon philosophy, bullets and lots of them.

I've not played this loadout but this is obviously the best for pouring damage onto an unsuspecting deployed Sunderer, or any other target not in a good position to retaliate. The downside is that the damage per salvo is lower, meaning that it is more difficult to pop in and out of cover between shots. And it is not a "one salvo kill", a big disadvantage when trying to "snipe" infantry, as they will have time to react.


Now comparing the NC and VS MAXes. Firstly, the DPS is almost exactly the same. The NC MAX is perhaps better for popping in and out of cover between salvos, but the VS MAX does not have any bullet drop to contend with, again this fits well with other VS weapons; sacrificing damage somewhat for accuracy. Seems fair to me.

Again, I have not played the VS AV MAX but I imagine that it is good for sniping infantry (2 hits = 1100 damage). Comparing with the NC MAX, faster fire rate and no drop, but the projectile is highly visible and is a bit slower than the NC MAX. Seems balanced to me.


My experience with the NC AV MAX is that it is not OP against tanks, especially the Magrider. I have the advantage if I have some decent cover to work with, as I am a small target, but the tank always has the option of retreating if things start going badly. But if I am caught in the open, then the advantage very much lies with the tank; normally ends badly for me.

I do find that it is sometimes rather easy to kill infantry though, especially medium range stationary targets (those people who drop pod onto the roof of a Watchtower and then camp on the top - they get a nasty surprise). But I do have to allow for the projectile drop and get both rounds on target, so some skill is involved. I don't see any way of nerfing these direct hit kills without significantly gimping the class against tanks. Perhaps a slight increase in the Cone of Fire?

I also find that the indirect AoE damage gets me a lot of kills and assists if I have a height advantage over infantry, and this is one area where the class could be nerfed back a bit, without altering the balance between AV MAX and Tanks. I would suggest reducing the AoE damage from 250 to 200 as a starting point. Similar proportional changes could be applied to the other AV MAXes, down to 120 or 100 for the TR, 150 for the VS. EDIT - I retract this on the grounds that most think that the AV MAXes need a little love, not a nerf. Especially the TR.


EDIT - I've made a short compilation condensed from about 20 minutes of gameplay defending Crossroads Watchtower. Some "one Salvo kills" and a good demonstration of how tough a MAX is (survived a Scythe strafing attack that killed few nearby team mates, with barely a scratch), and how unreliable this loadout is for CQC (I had to flee). Also some long range vehicle kills; deployed Sunderers are easy prey.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDLZ2E96XQw

I would particularly like to hear the opinion and experience of TR and VS AV MAX fans, as well as other Dual Falcon fans. And it would be interesting to hear things from the perspective of tank drivers and of infantry.

[Mietz]

Honestly I have never been killed or threatened by any of the AV MAXes ingame as a tank.

TR Pounder is great against infantry though, the VS MAX in general seems a lot weaker to the other two factions, which is intentional as far as I know.

MAXes in PS2 seem to be only moderately useful against vehicles, maybe in bunches they do better, but the HA seems to always be the better choice as its disposable (no resources, no timer), has potential against infantry (dual AV MAX will be less useful) and other utilities it can carry and is equipped from the start to be effective (no 1000cert needed for the second arm).

Honestly, I never use the MAX for AV ops.

[psijaka]

Honestly I have never been killed or threatened by any of the AV MAXes ingame as a tank.

TR Pounder is great against infantry though, the VS MAX in general seems a lot weaker to the other two factions, which is intentional as far as I know.

MAXes in PS2 seem to be only moderately useful against vehicles, maybe in bunches they do better, but the HA seems to always be the better choice as its disposable (no resources, no timer), has potential against infantry (dual AV MAX will be less useful) and other utilities it can carry and is equipped from the start to be effective (no 1000cert needed for the second arm).

Honestly, I never use the MAX for AV ops.

Interesting.

I'm having considerable success (and fun) since I've discovered the delights of MAX + dual Falcons (best 700 SC I've spent by far). As I said in my OP, it is deadly against infantry at medium range, to the point where I do suspect that it is a bit OP in this respect. Takes a bit of time to get used to the projectile drop and speed though (using the Firefall Plasma Cannon helped me here; very similar feel to the weapons).

Edit - I only ever go HA for AV ops if my MAX respawn timer is running.

[Mietz]

Interesting.

I'm having considerable success (and fun) since I've discovered the delights of MAX + dual Falcons (best 700 SC I've spent by far). As I said in my OP, it is deadly against infantry at medium range, to the point where I do suspect that it is a bit OP in this respect. Takes a bit of time to get used to the projectile drop and speed though (using the Firefall Plasma Cannon helped me here; very similar feel to the weapons).

Edit - I only ever go HA for AV ops if my MAX respawn timer is running.

Then that is a unique perspective from someone with dual AV arms.

I would wager most people didn't invest 1000 certs or 700SC for a second AV arm, getting the second Burster instead.

The cost-benefit calculation makes the dual AV MAX inferior to a HA in my opinion. For 1000 certs I can get a lock-on launcher for HA, or get lvl4 flak/shield.

The negatives:
-Larger target for both Infantry and Vehicles (also usually a priority target)
-generally slower and less agile (except for charge)
-resource dependent
-timer dependent
-no other utility (can't cap points, drive, gun, etc.)
-immobile and largely dependent on sunderer/galaxy transport

The positives:
-Potentially higher DPS against vehicles

In my eyes, it's not worth it.

I can't really talk about NC MAX as I don't play NC, I played VS and TR MAX extensively though.

[Figment]

"There are AV MAXes?"

[psijaka]

Then that is a unique perspective from someone with dual AV arms.

I would wager most people didn't invest 1000 certs or 700SC for a second AV arm, getting the second Burster instead.

The cost-benefit calculation makes the dual AV MAX inferior to a HA in my opinion. For 1000 certs I can get a lock-on launcher for HA, or get lvl4 flak/shield.

The negatives:
-Larger target for both Infantry and Vehicles (also usually a priority target)
-generally slower and less agile (except for charge)
-resource dependent
-timer dependent
-no other utility (can't cap points, drive, gun, etc.)
-immobile and largely dependent on sunderer/galaxy transport

The positives:
-Potentially higher DPS against vehicles

In my eyes, it's not worth it.

I can't really talk about NC MAX as I don't play NC, I played VS and TR MAX extensively though.

The thing that pisses me off most about the MAX is the inability to cap flags. How is it that a MAX can't but a tank or a scythe pilot can - even whilst hovering! I can stabilise generators and man the guns in a Sunderer though. Bizarre.

I know that it is incorrrect to compare the dual AV MAX with the HA, but here's some other advantages.

- Health - much harder to kill. I'm amazed by how much punishment a MAX can take. I've certed my MAX to 0.8% regen/sec; doesn't sound much but it is very significant if there isn't an engi around.
- Ammo - 90 rounds available! Can keep on pounding away even without a friendly engi around.
- Charge - or should I call it "Flee"? Saved my skin countless times.

Edit - I went for the second Burster first (meh), but for some reason it dawned on me that the second Falcon might offer some interesting possibilities. I was right.

[psijaka]

"There are AV MAXes?"

We're a rare breed, but the NC MAX + dual Falcons is a very rewarding class if you can pull it off. I'll have to post some videos.

[Rothnang]

Maxes aren't very good against vehicles, even with their anti-vehicle setup because MAXes aren't sturdy enough to stand there and unload into a vehicle like their weapons have to to be effective. You tend to have better chances as an HA with a rocket launcher, just because you don't have to spend anywhere near as much time as a target.

In my experience quite a few people use the Falcon as an anti-infantry weapon though, and it seems really good at that.

[bpostal]

AV MAX? You mean AI MAX right? What would the AV MAX be OP against? It sure isn't vehicles. Or at least not right now as we don't have lockdown.

[psijaka]

AV MAX? You mean AI MAX right? What would the AV MAX be OP against? It sure isn't vehicles. Or at least not right now as we don't have lockdown.

I use the NC dual AV MAX as much against infantry as against vehicles. This is where I consider that it might be a bit OP.

I started this thread partly because there were some posts saying that the NC AV MAX was OP in the Magrider Nerf thread. Maybe I should just put them down to Vanu tears.

[Figment]

Maybe it's one of the few things that can consistently hits a Magrider and they're not used to take that sort of punishment? :p

[Sledgecrushr]

I love playing with dual falcon max. Ive managed to kill quite a few tanks and sunderers with it just playing that particular build a few times.

[SeraphC]

So let's have a look at the data (from https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Amnj8jnZLDIOdEx6azNNdVozRmxLVkI2WnZmS2NqV 1E&gid=1 )


A Falcon (single) one hit kills infantry on impact. Seems kind of odd when you look at your chart and it says 750 direct damage.

I wouldn't consider the AV MAX overpowered. Even considering their Anti-Infantry capabilities. As shown above their role is way too limited for them to be overpowered.

The strength of a MAX obviously comes from the fact that you can stick your head out and not die instantly. If that isn't the issue at hand a Heavy Assault or Infiltrator will do most of what the AV MAX does better.

[MrBloodworth]

This is only Anecdotal, but, I never see AV maxes. With one Exception. VS direct fire blobs.

[Lonehunter]

I've never seen an AV MAX in game pose any serious threat, except against other MAXs. That's really all they're good for

[Emperor Newt]

I've never seen an AV MAX in game pose any serious threat, except against other MAXs. That's really all they're good for
Vanu AV maxes are a myth. They dont exist.

[MaxDamage]

Well you've said that trying to kill infantry with AV MAX is easy as NC.
Try killing infantry with TR AV MAX. It was easier with a burster even before the burster AI buff.

Also guy above me said AV MAXes are good against other MAXes... What?! Do I need to try the other empires MAXes? TR AV MAX was good against MAXes in PS1 but is hopeless against them in PS2. I've killed a bunch of sunderers and lightnings with TR MAX, I'm happy with its performance there, but on TR we have no serious counter to the NC MAX. We need alternate fire back from PS1 and projectiles that hit targets more consistently. A functional TR AV MAX could make the difference.

[psijaka]

A Falcon (single) one hit kills infantry on impact. Seems kind of odd when you look at your chart and it says 750 direct damage.

It's a one salvo kill, in my experience; 2 simultaneous shots, in other words.

Edit - just reached my 1000th kill with Max + dual Falcons :D

[psijaka]

Well you've said that trying to kill infantry with AV MAX is easy as NC.
Try killing infantry with TR AV MAX. It was easier with a burster even before the burster AI buff.

Is this with a single AV Pounder or with dual?

[Badjuju]

At this rate we are going to end up nerfing everything in the game. That would please those who prefer a higher TTK I guess, unless hp was needed as well.

That being said I think this is a non issue. For one they need to stay relevant as a threat against vehicles. They also should be some what effective vs infantry. I believe a direct hit to infantry is a kill ATM which I am perfectly fine with for two reasons. One the long reload time leaves them verry vulnrable and two they are not the easiest weapon to hit infantry with, especially as range increases. Sure they can get some kills but a pack of infantry will tear them to pieces. Outdoors where you will most likely see an AV max, you can single handedly take one down with out too much trouble if you use cover appropriately and watch your distance.

I have never had an issue with the NC av max or any empire for that matter, and it is no where as effective at killing infantry in comparison to AI maxes.

[SeraphC]

It's a one salvo kill, in my experience; 2 simultaneous shots, in other words.

I only have one Falcon yet I still consistently get one hit kills with it. Mind you, I'm rarely alone in these situations, but considering the amount of kills I've had with it I would really be surprised if each of those players had already been damaged by someone else.

[Chaff]

Stats don't always tell the whole story. The TR AV is marginal at best (IMHO). It is not easily aimed, and sucks against other maxes. The Crown can be decently fun for a TR AV Max. If you can stay somewhat concealed with the high ground, it can be an effective deterrent to Sundy's, Lightnings, and even MBTs. It takes a few too many rounds to kill a Mana (IMO). I Rarely see any TR pull dual-pounder. You have to Love maxes to go that route. There are far better options than AV MAX (TR). You launch the damn shells towards the general Zip Code of your target .... which has about three days to move before your volley reaches them. If you wander out in the open & get within 300 meters of a MBT - you're toast.

[Binkley]

I use the NC Max dual Falcon setup with good success against vehicles and infantry.

It's also very good sniper bait.

[Whiteagle]

"There are AV MAXes?"
This is exactly what I thought...

Then again I am a TR player, so no one on my side would EVER run duel Pounders and I figured NC's equivalent was the same.

I guess since their rounds don't drop like stones they can actually make use of them, while the VS have Anti-vehicle sniper rounds as always...

Personally lack luster AV is part of the reason I want to see two-handed Heavy MAX weapons, turning a MAX into a much more powerful field weapon at the cost of maneuverability and warm up time.

[MaxDamage]

Is this with a single AV Pounder or with dual?

Dual.

I have killed.. seemingly.. perhaps oddly, they can land at long distances but since you're having to compensate for large drops against a moving target with rounds that don't have much splash damage at all.. if you do, it's half luck even if you are a brilliant aim.

That bugged range thing seems much longer with AV rounds, much like the burster was. Shit just doesn't connect.

If someone wants to load up dual pounders and go max hunting, record a video and show me it's effective, I'll accept it's possible but I've given it a couple of tries and watching them fly around a gigantic NC MAX directly in front of you up to 20-30 feet while they drop you in a second or two - it's not encouraging.

In PS1 AV MAXes were really just anti-MAX MAXes. If that's still the intent then we've traded off our only MAX killing MAX for more vehicle kills.

We are much better against Tanks and Sunderers than in PS1 so I don't know if it's legitimate to complain or not..
So many new trade-offs in this game, things that look unfair until you hold them up in a different light.

[Chewy]

Dual.

I have killed.. seemingly.. perhaps oddly, they can land at long distances but since you're having to compensate for large drops against a moving target with rounds that don't have much splash damage at all.. if you do, it's half luck even if you are a brilliant aim.

That bugged range thing seems much longer with AV rounds, much like the burster was. Shit just doesn't connect.

If someone wants to load up dual pounders and go max hunting, record a video and show me it's effective, I'll accept it's possible but I've given it a couple of tries and watching them fly around a gigantic NC MAX directly in front of you up to 20-30 feet while they drop you in a second or two - it's not encouraging.

In PS1 AV MAXes were really just anti-MAX MAXes. If that's still the intent then we've traded off our only MAX killing MAX for more vehicle kills.

We are much better against Tanks and Sunderers than in PS1 so I don't know if it's legitimate to complain or not..
So many new trade-offs in this game, things that look unfair until you hold them up in a different light.

Question-
Are the TR MAX AV weapons cross-eyed?

NC MAX AV weapons are when used dual. Haven't gotten the real numbers on this but from what looks like somewhere around 70m-100m the shots cross paths and to land any hits past that distance you have to adjust for each arm. Iv had times against far off tanks where my shots would land on both sides around the tank.

Iv read that when the mag sizes of the AV weapons where reduced that the devs wanted AV MAXs to fire mini tank shells. Granted that the AV weapons hurt like hell, but I find them near useless outside of compounds. The 3rd thing I bought during the last SC sale was a 2nd falcon. Haven't used them since I seen how cross-eyed they are. I was doing more damage with dual bursters against armor then what I could with dual AV. Still curse the choice to remove burster damage against armor. It made me useful in the times air was off repairing.

[DirtyBird]

Totally agree with you psijaka.
The second Falcon was the last weapon i purchased for the MAX after disliking the single load out but I'm really enjoying playing it now.

Its not a set up imo that you would use looking for a huge K/D in your favour but it can hold its own in the right situations.
Could also consider it to a little too slow for most players.

[AThreatToYou]

ALL anti-vehicle MAX weapons need to be buffed against their intended targets.

That said, I consisitently find the NC AV MAX weapon to be the most useful. It's still not strong enough to do its job aside from annoy tanks, and get the occasional last-hit in. Still, it's an infantry-reponse to vehicles that can actually damage them in some way, shape, or form.

Also, I love 1HK'ing infiltrators with it. At sniper range. Got some hate tells from that.

The Pounder-MAX specifically was something that really shouldn't have been nerf'd from PS1. It was a terror to vehicles if you had a proper lead. The other MAX AV weapons were practically more of an anti-infantry choice that was better at killing other MAX units.

[Ghoest9]

"There are AV MAXes?"


this

[psijaka]

Question-
Are the TR MAX AV weapons cross-eyed?

NC MAX AV weapons are when used dual. Haven't gotten the real numbers on this but from what looks like somewhere around 70m-100m the shots cross paths and to land any hits past that distance you have to adjust for each arm. Iv had times against far off tanks where my shots would land on both sides around the tank.

Iv read that when the mag sizes of the AV weapons where reduced that the devs wanted AV MAXs to fire mini tank shells. Granted that the AV weapons hurt like hell, but I find them near useless outside of compounds. The 3rd thing I bought during the last SC sale was a 2nd falcon. Haven't used them since I seen how cross-eyed they are. I was doing more damage with dual bursters against armor then what I could with dual AV. Still curse the choice to remove burster damage against armor. It made me useful in the times air was off repairing.

^ THIS

It's because the guns are actually quite far apart, being mounted on the outside of the forearm. As you say, the aim point where the 2 shots converge is somewhere middle range, 50-100m but I've no idea exactly.

So when I shoot at infantry close range, sometimes the shots go either side of them! Or more usually, I don't aim dead centre and I get one hit. I have yet to perfect the art of aiming a bit off to one side, firing one gun, then aiming a bit off to the other side before firing the other. Makes the class tricky to use in CQC, which I suppose is balance. I certainly like to keep a little distance.

How ar eBursters against infantry now? Not used them much of late.

[psijaka]

I use the NC Max dual Falcon setup with good success against vehicles and infantry.

It's also very good sniper bait.

Totally agree with you psijaka.
The second Falcon was the last weapon i purchased for the MAX after disliking the single load out but I'm really enjoying playing it now.

Its not a set up imo that you would use looking for a huge K/D in your favour but it can hold its own in the right situations.
Could also consider it to a little too slow for most players.

Ah, fellow enthusiasts :D

I don't play for K/D and dislike the emphasis on the stat, but I have noticed my K/D start to rise steadily since getting into this loadout. Very tough; so I'm hard to kill, and in the right situation, can slaughter infantry by the dozen.

[psijaka]

I only have one Falcon yet I still consistently get one hit kills with it. Mind you, I'm rarely alone in these situations, but considering the amount of kills I've had with it I would really be surprised if each of those players had already been damaged by someone else.

I suspect your victims had already taken damage.

I've often got apparent 1HKs with the Falcons, but I've also very definately failed to get a kill with a single hit on numerous occasions. This is most noticeable during CQC where I'm sure that it is a direct hit and not AoE splash damage (due to the wide weapon spacing, one round often misses infantry at close range).

[psijaka]

Because the aim is offset slightly to account for the fact that the weapons are widely spaced, being strapped to the outside of the forearms, it is possible to miss at close range and at long range, even when your horizontal aim is apparently spot on.

Edit - I think that it is theoretically possible for the shots to travel either side of your target at very close range; hard to test though. Very commonly, one shot will hit the target.

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee391/psijaka/MAXaim_zpsc48a68b5.png

[PredatorFour]

Thinking bout certing into the VS equivalent after reading this , is the VS AV loadout good too ? (farming infantry wise)

[psijaka]

Thinking bout certing into the VS equivalent after reading this , is the VS AV loadout good too ? (farming infantry wise)

No experience of dual Comets as I don't play VS, but from the data it looks as if it's a "one salvo kill" if you land both shots on target. Faster fire rate than the NC and no projectile drop should help too, but on the downside, slower projectiles that are highly visible may give your intended victims a chance to dodge if they are quick.

I would certainly give it a try if I played VS. Let me know how you get on if you do go for it.

[Hamma]

All I know is the TR one feels worthless. :lol:

[Whiteagle]

All I know is the TR one feels worthless. :lol:
Indeed, and from looking at the provided data I can guess why...

While both shots will do the same DIRECT damage as a single NC Falcon round, they are also 10 m/s slower and have 33% greater gravity.

The end result is our grenades fly like they're made out of lead while the NC's are tin, giving us shorter arcs.

Of course, since we end up lobbing our shots, those comparative DPS calculations are misleading...

You'd only get 333 DPS if you were miraculously able to land EVERY shot, highly unlikely considering the Pounder has the shortest range of the three.

Recalculating for indirect damage shortens the 51 point DPS gap between the TR and VS down to 30...

TR Indirect damage per second: 133
NC Indirect DPS: 93
VS Indirect DPS: 103


Considering the Comet is the longest ranged AV weapon while the Pounder requires you to be in spiting distance, and BOTH have the same damage radius.... that's a bit of a bitter pill to swallow...

That said, the Comet SHOULD be a Beast even though it has the slowest projectiles; the lack of drop allowing them to set their sluggish plasma blast into a collision course with our poor predictable treaded tanks.

If I were to buff the Pounder to make it useful I'd ether increase the damage radius a bit or, probably more helpful, only increase the INDIRECT damage per shot by an additional 25.
That would give the Pounder an Indirect DPS of 156, while maintaining it's direct hit DPS at 333.
CARPETBOMBING HOOOO!!!

[Chewy]

Because the aim is offset slightly to account for the fact that the weapons are widely spaced, being strapped to the outside of the forearms, it is possible to miss at close range and at long range, even when your horizontal aim is apparently spot on.

Edit - I think that it is theoretically possible for the shots to travel either side of your target at very close range; hard to test though. Very commonly, one shot will hit the target.

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee391/psijaka/MAXaim_zpsc48a68b5.png

Iv done all 3 of those things and it isn't hard to test. Look at a post in the WG and fire on it. I use those things to test weapons all the time. With the bubble, getting the exact distances can be tough but it'll show you how cross-eyed they are.

[psijaka]

@ Whiteagle - the consensus here does seem to be that the TR AV MAX is the poor cousin of the other 2. Maybe a speed buff required, to match the NC?

@ chewy - thanks, will do some tests if I can tear myself away from the fighting!

[psijaka]

Well, I've not seen anyone post that they think that AV MAXes are OP. In fact, sounds as if the TR version could do with a buff!

I'll not feel guilty when I go on the rampage with dual Falcons!

[Sunrock]

I have tested it AV dual wielding MAX and the big problem for TR is the weight of the rounds. The bullet drop is so heavy that you can only hit anything within short range... If you want to have an accuracy of above 10% that is. So any MBT can more or less shoot you point black before you are able to get in two hits in row.

[Whiteagle]

@ Whiteagle - the consensus here does seem to be that the TR AV MAX is the poor cousin of the other 2. Maybe a speed buff required, to match the NC?
Eh, I don't think that will work...

I have tested it AV dual wielding MAX and the big problem for TR is the weight of the rounds. The bullet drop is so heavy that you can only hit anything within short range... If you want to have an accuracy of above 10% that is. So any MBT can more or less shoot you point black before you are able to get in two hits in row.
...Because yeah, our rounds are not only slower but have much higher gravity, so they're still going to drop quickly.

I personally wouldn't mind the short range as long as we got better splash damage to compensate, making us close-up Tank and Infantry murderers but limiting our ability to project beyond mid-range.

Well, I've not seen anyone post that they think that AV MAXes are OP. In fact, sounds as if the TR version could do with a buff!

I'll not feel guilty when I go on the rampage with dual Falcons!
Dude, at least you're not running duel ScatterMAX in a Bio Lab, so we're cool with it.

[Emperor Newt]

Thinking bout certing into the VS equivalent after reading this , is the VS AV loadout good too ? (farming infantry wise)
No. Reload speed on the Cosmos is too slow (and you have to reload after every shot!) and you have to hit spot on with both shots. The aoe damage doesn't cut it (also due to the slow firing speed). You CAN use the AV weapons vs inf as a last resort, but a second AI weapon will make you 1000x more effective.

[Whiteagle]

No. Reload speed on the Cosmos is too slow (and you have to reload after every shot!) and you have to hit spot on with both shots. The aoe damage doesn't cut it (also due to the slow firing speed). You CAN use the AV weapons vs inf as a last resort, but a second AI weapon will make you 1000x more effective.
But how is it at killing Vehicles?

[psijaka]

I have tested it AV dual wielding MAX and the big problem for TR is the weight of the rounds. The bullet drop is so heavy that you can only hit anything within short range... If you want to have an accuracy of above 10% that is. So any MBT can more or less shoot you point black before you are able to get in two hits in row.

Yeah, a bit bizarre that the gravity of the planet is mysteriously increased for TR projectiles. Gravity should be the same as for the NC.

[psijaka]

I've made a short compilation condensed from about 20 minutes of gameplay defending Crossroads Watchtower.

Some "One Salvo Kills" and a good demonstration of how tough a MAX is (survived a Scythe strafing attack, that killed few nearby team mates, with barely a scratch, and some fire from a Magrider and a Light Assault in a tree), and how unreliable this loadout is for CQC (I had to flee). Also some long range vehicle kills; deployed Sunderers are easy prey.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDLZ2E96XQw

Don't die often at all with this loadaout; as long as I play to the strengths of the Falcons, use cover, and keep my distance a bit, I usually survive quite a while. Commonest cause of death this last 2 days has been making the noob mistake of crossing a vehicle pad and having a tank spawn on top of me!

[psijaka]

No. Reload speed on the Cosmos is too slow (and you have to reload after every shot!) and you have to hit spot on with both shots. The aoe damage doesn't cut it (also due to the slow firing speed). You CAN use the AV weapons vs inf as a last resort, but a second AI weapon will make you 1000x more effective.

Reload speed quite a bit faster than for the NC Max Falcon.

Do you find that people are able to dodge your projectiles at medium range?

[SeraphC]

I've made a short compilation condensed from about 20 minutes of gameplay defending Crossroads Watchtower.

That's a good example of how not to use it. Get your scatter loadout and hold B or C with it instead.

Your kills and suppressive fire in that situation are way too unreliable. You're basically farming a couple of kills, high and dry, while your base is flipping.

The ideal situation to use that loadout, for example, is at the Crown, picking off TR that are coming up the steep hairpin road. In that situation you're actually keeping them out of the base.

[psijaka]

Might have guessed that I would get some comments like the above. The whole point of the clip was to show features of the MAX + dual Falcons, not dual Scattercannons.

Edit - looking at the first part of the video again, I see that I didn't notice a Sunderer behind B (I think). I would have been after that had I realised!

[Hroradi]

I do love stomping around in my max, but I think the AV MAX lands in the same category as the AA MAX; it's not there to kill, but to discourage. Otherwise we would be able to shoot more rounds before needing to reload.

[SpunkyKuma]

Wow didn't realize comet is weak, I have dual comet and rarely ever get kills unless I have a dumb Lightning in front of me showing his butt. I also spent a good amount of time in the TR MAX and I'll tell you the blast radius of that is smaller than a dinner plate and difficult to land accurately past 100m. NC Falcon is pretty decent but takes a little practice with its mortar projectile drop.

[Fenrys]

But how is it at killing Vehicles?

The Comet excels at damaging stationary vehicles that are outside of rocket lock-on range. In all other scenarios (ie most of the time), HA is superior.

[SpunkyKuma]

Thinking bout certing into the VS equivalent after reading this , is the VS AV loadout good too ? (farming infantry wise)

If your intention is for infantry, don't waste your time- get dual cosmos instead.

[DirtyBird]

One thing I have noticed recently in the AV MAX and it may include the other varieties.
I can stand on various balconies or flight pads at say the Cross Roads and not be able to render what is constantly hitting me.
They are obviously seeing me with no issues but I see nothing to return fire at.
This is only against infantry, I can see the turrets and vehicles no problems but the small arms fire seems like its coming from no where.
Other classes next to me are not taking the same fire.

If I change class and move to the same spots I am not coping the same amount of fire until I move closer and I render them as they render me.

I also noticed when advancing on a position that I was able to render the MAX's before the other infantry.
I wonder if they have changed something recently or its just me (not)seeing things.

I'll have to try to get some footage if I can ever reliably get my video to work and not tell me its exceeding its memory limit.

[Sledgecrushr]

One thing I have noticed recently in the AV MAX and it may include the other varieties.
I can stand on various balconies or flight pads at say the Cross Roads and not be able to render what is constantly hitting me.
They are obviously seeing me with no issues but I see nothing to return fire at.
This is only against infantry, I can see the turrets and vehicles no problems but the small arms fire seems like its coming from no where.
Other classes next to me are not taking the same fire.

If I change class and move to the same spots I am not coping the same amount of fire until I move closer and I render them as they render me.

I also noticed when advancing on a position that I was able to render the MAX's before the other infantry.
I wonder if they have changed something recently or its just me (not)seeing things.

I'll have to try to get some footage if I can ever reliably get my video to work and not tell me its exceeding its memory limit.

Max render distance has been increased. It was mostly for the flyboys to see aa nests but I guess it works for everyone.

[Bunk]

I've been killed by this type of max only a couple of times during my play and I died thousands of times, it's not OP and it shouldn't be nerfed.

[Whiteagle]

Wow didn't realize comet is weak, I have dual comet and rarely ever get kills unless I have a dumb Lightning in front of me showing his butt. I also spent a good amount of time in the TR MAX and I'll tell you the blast radius of that is smaller than a dinner plate and difficult to land accurately past 100m. NC Falcon is pretty decent but takes a little practice with its mortar projectile drop.
Actually all three are suppose to have the SAME blast radius...
So the Pounder ends up being the remedial version of Scorpion Special Assault launcher trigonometry

The Comet excels at damaging stationary vehicles that are outside of rocket lock-on range. In all other scenarios (ie most of the time), HA is superior.
Eh, I don't know...
From psijaka video, the Falcon has a WAY straighter flight arc then the Pounder, and the Comet shouldn't have ANY...

Is the slow projectile speed THAT much of a hindrance to you guys?
I mean, you don't have to deal with hovering SUPER tanks or anything...

Max render distance has been increased. It was mostly for the flyboys to see aa nests but I guess it works for everyone.
So are MAXes officially Vehicles now?

[psijaka]

Pounder has slower speed AND higher gravity than the Falcon; a "double whammy".

[Whiteagle]

Pounder has slower speed AND higher gravity than the Falcon; a "double whammy".
Yeah, but the Comet is slower still...

...Maybe then they are just as weak, but I wouldn't put it past Vanu to not know how to lead their shots...

[Sifer2]

Yeah despite highest DPS Pounder is probably the worst since the arc makes it more difficult to use at range. Good for killing a vehicle that just rushes into the base I guess. But then so is C4.

In general my feelings is AV MAX is underpowered in their intended role. Damage being less the problem an it more being they don't hit distant targets very well. But since you bring it up it's probably true they don't want to buff them as they worry they will be used as AI units.

[typhaon]

The NC AV MAX is not OP... unless OP stands for "obviously pointless."

The actual damage seems OK - but it isn't easy to aim... going AV makes you very UP to infantry... and it sure isn't easy to sneak up and get behind anyone to really make them pay.

I guess you could combo it up... but then how many situations are you in need of CQC infantry damage AND AV damage? And one of each doesn't feel very powerful...

I think in almost every situation NC is better off going with HA and busting out a rocker launcher.

[psijaka]

I've tried the Scattermax + Falcon combo; pretty useless at either role IMO; Scattermax a bit lame used singly (I haven't bought the second Scat), and the Falcon especially so; no one salvo kill, and single use vehicle damage is pitiful; you can't outpace an engi repairing a Sunderer (can with dual Falcons). And using 2 weapons with different rates of fire and damage patterns simultaneously is a nightmare.