Article discussing SOE & MLG's partnership, and PlanetSide 2 as an eSport

[Hydro]

Hello PSU community,

My name is Hydrolis, and I am an old PlanetSide 1 player (TR Markov, represent)! Over the years I've also been heavily involved in the world of 'electronic sports' (eSports). I'm sure most of you are aware that recently SOE has joined forces with Major League Gaming (MLG) in an attempt to turn PS2 into a competitive title.

I recently put out an article on the subject over at a competitive gaming news website I work for:

http://news.esea.net/index.php?s=news&d=comments&id=12315

I figure because PSU is the PlanetSide (2) fan-site, I would share the link here.

I would be interested to hear what everyone thinks about this subject!

[Rolfski]

Nice write up, although I'm not sure I agree with all your points. The superior tactics/team work aspect of this game over regular shooters does have some e-sports potential. And yes, the partnership is a marketing based decision but that's no different from any other e-sports partnership.

[Mox]

Thats exactly how most of the playerbase think.
SOE is wasting time and money for this esports thing.
Ps2 is far from perfect atm. So they should focus on other things. Things like a solid meta game, a battle guidance system (e.g. Lattice), or even the overall game performance. If they dont polish the game in the next few months, i doubt that there will be any players left to make some esports events.

[Pella]

Bang on mate. And i am glad to see such an article in the mainstream about planetside 2.

But i am sure that the top players you know from ESEA dont give a shit about PS2. Let alone it going down the esports road.

[Rumblepit]

this was discussed on this forum last year. i supported it then and i support it now.
http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=41684

http://www.planetside-universe.com/showthread.php?t=46912

ps2 will be a esport. im already making plans to be in Dallas for the first event.

[Rockit]

I have to agree with the basic premise their priorities seem a bit out of order. Now granted they said the MLG related activities would initially be simply gaining knowledge and sharing ideas between SOE and MLG throughout the year but there appears to me to be more pressing issues just to make the game enjoyable for the general populace first. It almost appears there is a race to get this type MMOFPS genre into the league and SOE wanted to stake that early claim at the risk of the general gaming experience quality. I don't pretend to know all the behind the scenes intentions but on the surface I hope they don't put the game in peril by diverting focus from where it is really needed at this time.

[Kerrec]

I read your article, and I find you come off as a bit elitist (PS2 isn't good enough for MLG) and blind to the big world of business.

"Pure" FPS twitch mechanics have already saturated the available market. People that are interested in watching that, are watching it. You seem to think that any new game has to compete in this market, or else it doesn't deserve to be an esport.

Well, in the world of business, companies that make ONE and only one product, will be around only as long as that product remains popular. In order to avoid demise, companies continuously go out of their way to diversify their product range. I used to work for a company, that was part of a corporation that was involved in Jet Engines, Elevators, Air Conditioners, and many more. Notice how one is not even related to another?

"5 vs 5" is not the be all and end all of esports. Take myself for example. I'm interested in watching esports, but nothing out there really makes me want to watch (instead of playing casually). I was very interested in Starcraft, until I started watching matches and realized competitions were over before either side got very far up the tech tree. I found those matches became almost "cookie cutter" and I lost interest.

What I would like to watch is a team based game. FPS has it's place.. the grunts have to succeed at the FPS game as a base, but there are so many other ways to help or hinder the grunts. Teamplay. Large scale strategy.

This kind of gameplay will open up a whole new market for NEW viewers, thereby growing the MLG viewership, profits and making the future of MLG a bit more secure, if ever the twitch shooter scene gets bored and stops watching.

Business, new markets. It's SIMPLE to understand the WHY.

[Rahabib]

<-- Competitive player

Here is the way I see it.

Could PS2 be a successful esport - yes. Will it - no.

The problem is so complex that I find it hard that SOE will make the necessary sacrifices to do it right.

50v50 wars: May sound great on paper, but having a weekly or even a tournament of 100 players getting together regularly is a recipe for disaster. All this is going to do is limit to the number of clans to be able to participate to a few. Right now I think I can count on one hand outfits that can regularly place 50 players.
Must scale: If 50v50 wont work well, its gotta scale. It has to be able to work for infantry only matches of maximum 12v12 and down to 6v6 would be even better.
Factions and "side grades": As the game is right now, it forces you to comit to a faction. While that works fine for an MMO it doesnt work for competions. You can have asymetric style factions, but in order for it to be balanced and fair, you have to switch up. So you play one map VS vrs NC, then after round 1 you switch it up so if you were VS round one you have to be NC round two. Without this, I don't see it being balanced enough to be taken seriously. Which brings me to the next issue, if I unlock everything for my VS player, I am now forced to unlock stuff for all the other factions - or you have to allow all "side grades" to be unlocked for competition.
Weapon Balance/restrictions: there are too many cheap kills in this game. 1 nade = dead. Rocket = dead. C4 = dead. So all of this needs to be able to be toggled by League rules. Restrictions are a must. this game is meant to facilitate hordes of players, not small skirmishes. Also, as stated, for smaller matches (like 12v12) vehicles need to be restricted.
Sandbox?: This goes without saying. But tying matches to the world is problematic. Forcing the player to play in the game to gain recognition to be able to play in matches leads to competition grind. Its not fair. Games like Guild Wars separates the world intentionally, and as much as some people hate it, its really the only way to work it. Because for a game to really be taken seriously, you have to have balance, and play both factions - you now cant tie in any reward system to a faction.

So what will need to happen to make esports successful?

1) sandboxed competitions - no tie in to the world. sucks but it simply cannot work.
2) league controlled settings - matches need the ability to choose maps and also control restrictions and rules.
3) no faction tying - you have to keep it balanced and swap factions. How this will work with 3 factions is getting complex, but workable.
4) scalable - it cant just be for 50v50 or you will have 4 teams playing over and over again.
5) maps designed for competition - maps need to scale, be fast paced enough that its not boring, and open enough that it doesn't call for one specific strategy.

As you can see, it probably will never be done right and thus, it wont take off.

You may see it in MLG, but only because SOE paid a hell of a lot of money to get it there. I don't see any other league picking this game up.

[Rahabib]

Just to be clear. I am not saying 50v50 shouldn't be available. But it also cannot be the only size this game will cater to.

[Kerrec]

Why would people play PS2 for a 12 vs 12 or 6 vs 6? There are already plenty of shooters that fill this niche.

The whole point is to create a new niche.

Prize money will cause plenty of teams to show up. Maybe not tons at first, but in a few years, only the best will be chosen to play.

Starcraft does 3 completely unique factions, and it is big in esports (not sure if it's MLG). Choosing your faction is PART of the overall strategy. Or best out of 3, playing each faction once. I include this last bit because at the moment, there's no way to have the same faction fight itself.

IMO, it's easy to balance. Everyone gets even teams, everyone gets to spend a fixed quantity of certs. How people/teams choose to spend those certs becomes part of the overall strategy. You spend it once at the beginning and hope you'll have the tools to deal with what the other team(s) chose to cert into.

There can be different kinds of matches. One single base can be the objective. Or total territory control. Or whatever is interesting for the viewers. That can be fooled around with. What's interesting will emerge all on it's own.

What WILL be a problem is how to view the action with so much going on. Good commentators and good producers are going to be worth a mint.

[Rahabib]

Why would people play PS2 for a 12 vs 12 or 6 vs 6? There are already plenty of shooters that fill this niche.

The whole point is to create a new niche.

Prize money will cause plenty of teams to show up. Maybe not tons at first, but in a few years, only the best will be chosen to play.

Starcraft does 3 completely unique factions, and it is big in esports (not sure if it's MLG). Choosing your faction is PART of the overall strategy. Or best out of 3, playing each faction once. I include this last bit because at the moment, there's no way to have the same faction fight itself.

IMO, it's easy to balance. Everyone gets even teams, everyone gets to spend a fixed quantity of certs. How people/teams choose to spend those certs becomes part of the overall strategy. You spend it once at the beginning and hope you'll have the tools to deal with what the other team(s) chose to cert into.

There can be different kinds of matches. One single base can be the objective. Or total territory control. Or whatever is interesting for the viewers. That can be fooled around with. What's interesting will emerge all on it's own.

What WILL be a problem is how to view the action with so much going on. Good commentators and good producers are going to be worth a mint.

just creating a "unique niche" isn't going to be enough if only a few teams can play it. Prize money only goes so far. The minute the tournaments start and end, they fizzle out. Besides, there are a lot of prize money games out there where you dont have to split it 50 ways :).

But the idea is to get a following even among the 12v12 clan (already a bit high IMO), but also cater to the 50v50 clans as well. Guess which one other leagues will pick up? Not the 50v50. At 50v50 MLG wont have this game past one season, and only because Sony paid them, trust me.

In SC2 you are not held to any one faction. They want this game to tie into a world reward system. But what if both teams want to be VS or all teams want to be VS? SC2 this isn't a problem. Say for arguments sake there are 20 teams for VS 12 for NC and 10 for TR - how does that work? Only 10 from each faction? Seems you will find team either playing factions they dont like or teams will not qualify simply because there are too many for that faction - not based on skill.

It seems to me like its a dynamic this game isnt really set up for.

[Pella]

So what will need to happen to make esports successful?

1) sandboxed competitions - no tie in to the world. sucks but it simply cannot work.
2) league controlled settings - matches need the ability to choose maps and also control restrictions and rules.
3) no faction tying - you have to keep it balanced and swap factions. How this will work with 3 factions is getting complex, but workable.
4) scalable - it cant just be for 50v50 or you will have 4 teams playing over and over again.
5) maps designed for competition - maps need to scale, be fast paced enough that its not boring, and open enough that it doesn't call for one specific strategy.

As you can see, it probably will never be done right and thus, it wont take off.

You may see it in MLG, but only because SOE paid a hell of a lot of money to get it there. I don't see any other league picking this game up.

But COD/CS Fill those gaps.

[Kerrec]

just creating a "unique niche" isn't going to be enough if only a few teams can play it. Prize money only goes so far. The minute the tournaments start and end, they fizzle out. Besides, there are a lot of prize money games out there where you dont have to split it 50 ways :).

Like I said, that niche already exists. Small teams each getting a bigger share of the rewards is going to be dominated by 6 vs 6 games, which there are many much better than PS2.

However, there are alot of people that are not twitch players that can be pivotal in a TEAM game. Someone that simply commands, does overall strategy is not going to be running around in the middle of intense gunplay.

There alot of people that play at a high level, but not twitch gaming. If the prize money for a 3rd place win, split 50 ways was enough to cover traveling expenses, chances are there's be enough participation JUST to be part of the scene and travel doing it.

I'm not saying these people would be professional carreer gamers. But the potential still exists for large scale games which can draw a whole new crowd to MLG.

[Rahabib]

well, as I stated before, its its just 50v50 then its going to be 4-5 large zerg clans all the time and it will fail.

[CrankyTRex]

Like I said, that niche already exists. Small teams each getting a bigger share of the rewards is going to be dominated by 6 vs 6 games, which there are many much better than PS2.

However, there are alot of people that are not twitch players that can be pivotal in a TEAM game. Someone that simply commands, does overall strategy is not going to be running around in the middle of intense gunplay.

There alot of people that play at a high level, but not twitch gaming.


Exactly. It's like the difference between baseball and (American) football. Baseball is a game that, while it has a team component, is largely centered around an individual achievement. A pitcher throws a close strike. A batter hits a homer. A fielder makes a ridiculous diving catch. And all of that stuff accumulates on a team to make for a win, just like an FPS player making a crack shot or getting a power up just in time and going on a killing spree.

In football, however, the individual can excel, but the focus is more on the team executing its strategy to control the field and the clock. A QB can make an amazing throw, but not if he gets sacked because his offensive line has collapsed. A PS2 player can get a kill streak, but it doesn't matter a whole lot if there are a dozen more guys that meanwhile capped the point.

So instead of focusing on individual heroics like baseball or twitch skill like a small FPS, PS2 would be a more bird's eye view, watching each sub group (like a squad) to see how they execute their portion of an overall strategy. Do they take that one outpost so their main force can push this other one? Does the influx of that air power make a hole in the enemy line or is it countered by some AA and wiped out? Etc.

[Kerrec]

Maybe, maybe not.

The whole thing depends on how viewer friendly it can be made. THAT is where I think the potential for failure is the highest.

[bpostal]

Being viewer friendly shouldn't be that hard. Take the strategy that comes from SC2, filter that through (or add it on to) the fps element like CS and there's your starting point. The FPS portion shows the HOW and the RTS portion shows WHY.

The big issue, as has been stated, is scalability. PS2 isn't going to separate itself from any other FPS out there with 12v12v12 or even 64v64v64. 100s vs 100s vs 100s is what we need. The only way I can see to get the numbers we need is to fill slots from multiple outfits per faction.

And what about outfit drama?
My outfit can field over 100 people, but the number of players who would be interested in eSports is somewhere around a dozen (if that). Does that dozen now become the 'elite' of my outfit? I doubt it, they'll get kicked out to keep the 'real' players happy. (and keep drama down)

What about servers? If eSports happens on a live server it's going to get the shit trolled out of it. If it's on an instanced server then we can kiss those earlier promises SOE gave us about instances goodbye.
Instances to me = raid teams from an MMORPG. Is that really what we want? A fractured player base between raiders and non-raiders? Sooner or later SOE will have to start catering to one of the two groups (at the others expense) so who takes precedence?

In the end, I wouldn't mind watching PS2 eSports, provided it doesn't fuck up my playing experience. Especially with the game in it's current state.

[Rockit]

I tell you what though. If this game keeps losing pop, the only viable thing they will have left is small eSports matches. I can see that medium pop roughly translates into a decent fight on Indar every single night.

[Chewy]

Maybe, maybe not.

The whole thing depends on how viewer friendly it can be made. THAT is where I think the potential for failure is the highest.

If that god/observer cam is made public then PS2 can be very fun to watch. It'll be better if you could spectate someone at will, but just the overall views of battle it could even make for a decent YT channel for the normal battles that happen.

Come to think of it. That observer cam may be a thing that needs limited. Other competitive games have problems with people giving details by spying as a spectator. Wonder how it going to work, if the public gets the thing at all.

[Blynd]

Hello PSU community,

My name is Hydrolis, and I am an old PlanetSide 1 player (TR Markov, represent)! Over the years I've also been heavily involved in the world of 'electronic sports' (eSports). I'm sure most of you are aware that recently SOE has joined forces with Major League Gaming (MLG) in an attempt to turn PS2 into a competitive title.

I recently put out an article on the subject over at a competitive gaming news website I work for:

http://news.esea.net/index.php?s=news&d=comments&id=12315

I figure because PSU is the PlanetSide (2) fan-site, I would share the link here.

I would be interested to hear what everyone thinks about this subject!

I disagree with your article for one major reason there are titles that already give esports 6v6 12v12 etc what ps2 could provide if done right is massive fights large scale battles etc.

As for coverage its simple have 3 people covering 1 per empire and the stream runs 5-10 minutes behind the action giving editing of the footage and swithing between streams etc.

The leaderboard plan soe have explained will determin who will make the battles so if there are 5 outfits with a full squad on each side that would give you a decent sized fight to pick footage from. Yes it will be hard at first but with practice I think you could get some great shows from it.

I do however think that this esports thing is premature as the game needs a lot more tweeks to defensable bases and a real goal for the empires added to that way to deny benefits from another empire would also add a dynamic to esports never seen before along with giving small outfits the ability to work with a large outfit to carry out spec ops.

I think this is a good thing for ps2 but in 12 - 18 months time not yet.

[Sardus]

Hello PSU community,

My name is Hydrolis, and I am an old PlanetSide 1 player (TR Markov, represent)! Over the years I've also been heavily involved in the world of 'electronic sports' (eSports). I'm sure most of you are aware that recently SOE has joined forces with Major League Gaming (MLG) in an attempt to turn PS2 into a competitive title.

I recently put out an article on the subject over at a competitive gaming news website I work for:

http://news.esea.net/index.php?s=news&d=comments&id=12315

I figure because PSU is the PlanetSide (2) fan-site, I would share the link here.

I would be interested to hear what everyone thinks about this subject!

I remember you, noob :D

[igster]

Another video / post regarding this from GD Studio. Pretty much sums up what insiders think about the whole thing pretty much.

These guys are very heavily involved in e-sports and around TwitchTV / dreamhack.

GD Studio #28 (http://twitch.tv/thegdstudio/b/362001567?t=38m30s)

Whole Schedule (http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/17j1lq/the_gd_studio_28_vod_is_available_with_2gd/)

Same thoughts as me on the subject really... not a clue how this is going to work, but I know one thing - you can't just take any fps and make it an e-sports title. IMO it has to be built in from the ground up to be an e-sports and I really don't think Planetside suits the format at all.

Semmler is a cat murdering utter noob mind you and really has no clue, however I do have the same sentiment about PS2 fitting into an e-sports genre. I enjoy e-sports and play planetside.

I don't see competitive ladders and tournaments in Planetside really being very interesting content for an observer. I don't think the gameplay supports small teams going head to head in a meaningful format.

I really enjoy e-sports same as a lot of people but I don't enjoy watching round pegs being squeezed into square holes.

Nextup: Everquest as an e-sport! *Yawn - no thanks I think I have some paperwork to catch up on*