The Road map and why it doesnt work!

[Pella]

Now don't get me wrong the overall idea of up & down voting is a great idea to get the community involved with the developers.

But a huge problem that the Devs face are the people that have next to no play time, Or experience in Planetside/Planetside 2 who have an overall effect on how this game is going to turn out.

PSU stats is slow at the moment. And i dont want to call people out. But the majority of rubbish posted and voted up are by players who have next to no play time at all.

I don't use the official forums for this reason. As you get into a arguments to easily with people who try and counter your suggestion, when they have no idea how this game works.

Personally i would like to see a CSM somewhat like EvE online. But without the politics involved. Member's of the biggest outfits in PS2 have such a massive effect on this game. Like it or not. But these guys should have a say on what should be done in PS2. And PS1 vets even more so.

I could go deep here. But i hope you catch my drift. As this cannot continue.

[typhaon]

I think you're over thinking this.

The Road Map is a tool. It organizes conversation about upcoming changes. The votes give SOE a measure of what people think about things... along with the comments... and SOE takes it from there.

Ultimately, it's SOE's vision of the game that will be produced.

[Stellarthief]

SoE is in the driver's seat, player base is in the backseat.

We may give our opinion, play I spy with my little eye and cause a fuss or repeat endlessly "are we there yet?". But ultimately SoE is driving and where they take the game is their decision in the end.

[Bunk]

+1 OP

Majority of people that want to shape things don't know what they're talking about.

[Stanis]

I believe that with a few notable exceptions the roadmap for development has to be fairly planned for the upcoming months.

They're been working on January patch and preparing assets for February.


They might rethink or revise their plans but I think the roadmap is fairly solid.


However, you are right.
In a vote where the most population option has 25% support, 75% didn't support it.

This makes the whole concept flawed - in general more people are just going to see that the influence they have is fairly minimal and SOE can always find someone that thinks the craziest thing is a good idea ..

[raw]

Now don't get me wrong the overall idea of up & down voting is a great idea to get the community involved with the developers.

But a huge problem that the Devs face are the people that have next to no play time, Or experience in Planetside/Planetside 2 who have an overall effect on how this game is going to turn out.


Welcome to democracy.

[SwiftRanger]

SOE aren't mainly looking at the voting (as that gives a wrong image for all kinds of reasons) but at why people like or dislike something. They want feedback and some of the stuff players have posted in those threads are actually really good. Lots of silliness as well of course but the developers at least initiated the right discussions imo and they have proven they're willing to implement good player suggestions. If you would actually check the Road Map you'd also see it's pretty much what PS1 vets want that is on top.:)

I am in an Outfit myself but to claim that only outfit members should have a right to say what's important to the game or how the game should shape itself isn't right. It's even a form of elitism that might be the downfall of PlanetSide 2 on one day.

There are loads of folks playing on their own as they don't want to be bound to anyone or anything (definitely not only BR1's btw). Even though the game "should" be played in another way, you need to respect their playing style. Also don't overestimate Outfit populations, their willingness to provide a friendly player environment, let alone their ability of coming up with decent suggestions for the future of PS2. As for politics; you will always have those in a PvP-centric game.

And as others have said: SOE is in charge. Players don't know the development side of the game. PS2 isn't EVE, not even close. SOE is off to a much better start than CCP ever had all those years ago. The Road Map is great, there aren't many companies willing to reveal so much so early and let the community vent their opinion on it. It'll get fleshed out, I am sure.

[Rolfski]

Let' s make this game an elitest game where the hardest of hardcore players decide the gameplay, killing off any newbie friendly feature just to make sure this game will die like PS1 did. Sounds like a plan!

[raw]

Let' s make this game an elitest game where the hardest of hardcore players decide the gameplay, killing off any newbie friendly feature just to make sure this game will die like PS1 did. Sounds like a plan!

"Hardcore and elitist" players should be listened to when it comes to mechanical details. But betting the overall direction of the game I would not.

[ringring]

The trouble with the roadmap is that if it's follow at the pace as detailed this game will continue to be pretty boring for another year.

[raw]

The trouble with the roadmap is that if it's follow at the pace as detailed this game will continue to be pretty boring for another year.

"We have a roadmap for the coming 3 years laid out" translates to "We released the game 3 years early because we need the money" in real world speak.

[SwiftRanger]

The trouble with the roadmap is that if it's follow at the pace as detailed this game will continue to be pretty boring for another year.
I gotta admit there wasn't anything worldshaking in the Road Map idd. But we all know the state of the game now, it still does need a lot of work in areas where PS1 has already gotten the better of it. Let's see SOE can get that right first, in a way it doesn't alienate new players.

Hopefully we don't have to wait till July before we know what's gonna happen in the last six months of 2013. Adding a new month with other features after a month has passed would be good imo.

[Stellarthief]

"Hardcore and elitist" players should be listened to when it comes to mechanical details. But betting the overall direction of the game I would not.

Disagree. Gameplay style or amount of time invested doesn't make their opinion on mechanics anymore valid than the next guy. Time played, obsessiveness or attitude does not equal knowledge.

Also, Hardcore and elitist gamers are often bound in their ways and views (I know from firsthand experience) and any noob offering another point of view on mechanics should be hanged.

Lastly, who says a noob can't have a good idea how to adjust mechanics or balance or what not? Good ideas often come from places you don't expect.

[Pella]

Im not saying just outfit members should be able to vote.

I am simply talking about larger outfits, That play this game day in day out since beta. People Like BRTD,AT,666 Devil dogs. These leaders should have more influence apon the game. As untimely these outfits keep players ingame and understand what PS2 should be.

Is that a bad thing? Prehaps it is, But i'm sure they will push the game in the right direction where we all want it.

[Stellarthief]

Im not saying just outfit members should be able to vote.

I am simply talking about larger outfits, That play this game day in day out since beta. People Like BRTD,AT,666 Devil dogs. These leaders should have more influence apon the game. As untimely these outfits keep players ingame and understand what PS2 should be.

Is that a bad thing? Prehaps it is, But i'm sure they will push the game in the right direction where we all want it.

This is a very common thing in MMOs actually. The bigger guilds/outfits/organisations get to work closely with devs, share their ideas, etc. and can more or less push the game and even game mechanics (or advocate for certain change at least) in a direction they think it should go. Sometimes they just try to push their own agenda...

This doesnt alway lead to good for all, and sometimes the average gamer doesn't even feel the effects. Could be a bit different in PS2 as the "meta game" is kinda there for everyone, only barrier is numbers here.

But also to be honest it can't be avoided as these organisations are usually the best source of info from gamer perspective. The masses are largely useless other than to hear how unhappy or happy they are with the game at large. Not to contradict myself - they still can be helpful, but have to dig to find it.

Another thing is, as I kinda mentioned above. Usually these bigger organisations aren't a majority of players. They represent a minority who often play the game a certain way.

You should also reread your post. "As untimely these outfits keep players ingame and understand what PS2 should be. ". What PS2 should be is what devs have planned, mapped out, etc + feedback from the players. The larger outfits really couldn't say and have no qualification to say what the game "should be" unless you want to talk actual real world money investment.

It's also rather short sighted if you think these big outfits keep people in game. Except on these forums I have never heard of any of the outfits you mentioned and I couldn't care less about them really. PS2 has some nice designs so that such organisations don't dictate the motion of the world like in so many other MMOs.

A few points scattered here and there. But since 1999 I have seen and heard all the arguments for, against, etc. about how a game should develop. Been in games that have blossomed and games that have sunk.. In the end each decision can bring something good or bad.

[Pella]

You should also reread your post. "As untimely these outfits keep players ingame and understand what PS2 should be. ". What PS2 should be is what devs have planned, mapped out, etc + feedback from the players. The larger outfits really couldn't say and have no qualification to say what the game "should be" unless you want to talk actual real world money investment.

It's also rather short sighted if you think these big outfits keep people in game. Except on these forums I have never heard of any of the outfits you mentioned and I couldn't care less about them really. PS2 has some nice designs so that such organisations don't dictate the motion of the world like in so many other MMOs.


If you haven't heard of BRTD/AT/666 Devil dogs. I am sorry you have no idea what your talking about, Or simply don't play this game. If that is so, This topic doesn't concern you. And reconfirms my point.

I'm not here to glorify these outfits. But If an outfit carrys 300 Active members. That itself should carry a hefty weight when deciding on game changes. Do you keep them happy or some idiot who has played for 5 minutes?

[Stellarthief]

If you haven't heard of BRTD/AT/666 Devil dogs. I am sorry you have no idea what your talking about, Or simply don't play this game. If that is so, This topic doesn't concern you. And reconfirms my point.

I'm not here to glorify these outfits. But If an outfit carrys 300 Active members. That itself should carry a hefty weight when deciding on game changes. Do you keep them happy or some idiot who has played for 5 minutes?


It's these kinds of statements that show that outfits don't/shouldn't be tapped for mechanic/game direction. Because I don't know them I have no clue about the game obviously...

My outfit also has several hundred members. I wouldnt trust any of them to impact anything game play or mechanic wise... Thanks.

P.S. if you didnt know, thousands of people play this game.. a few hundred active in an outfit doesn't give the outfit leader or leaders any further right/privilege, or qualifications to vote, dictate or otherwise impact the future of the game any more than the next guy.

*edit to make it clear* I am not saying every resource shouldn't be tapped. Guild feedback, player feedback, in game tracking mechanics, etc. Every good developer uses all the tools at hand. But to give 1 particular party more weight in this department because of a, b, or c when they are not the majority of players and quite often have opposing views from the next large party is not good sense. Listen to everyone, equally, then make up your mind. That's only good logic.

[Pella]

It's these kinds of statements that show that outfits don't/shouldn't be tapped for mechanic/game direction. Because I don't know them I have no clue about the game obviously...

My outfit also has several hundred members. I wouldnt trust any of them to impact anything game play or mechanic wise... Thanks..

P.S. if you didnt know, thousands of people play this game.. a few hundred active in an outfit doesn't give the outfit leader or leaders any further right/privilege, or qualifications to vote, dictate or otherwise impact the future of the game any more than the next guy.

It was an example. there are many other big outfits. But i am talking about PS1 veteran outfits who's leaders understand what this game is and where it should go.

[Stellarthief]

It was an example. there are many other big outfits. But i am talking about PS1 veteran outfits who's leaders understand what this game is and where it should go.

This is PS2 not PS1.

Veteran outfits leaders of PS1 understand where PS1 should have gone/did go. Not where PS2 should go sorry. This is not the same game.

People keep failing to make this distinction in GW2 also. GW2 is not GW1 and should NEVER go in the same direction as that game did.

More Examples:

Asheron's Call 1 veterans tried to make Asheron's Call 2 go back into the way of 1 after some troubles. Further helped kill the game.

EverQuest 2 should never follow how EverQuest 1 was.


(And yes, I played PS1 from about 2003-2005. So not a 10 year vet like some, but I played the original game for a few years)

[Pella]

This is PS2 not PS1.

Veteran outfits leaders of PS1 understand where PS1 should have gone/did go. Not where PS2 should go sorry. This is not the same game.

People keep failing to make this distinction in GW2 also. GW2 is not GW1 and should NEVER go in the same direction as that game did.

Honestly.. stop.

[Stellarthief]

Glad to.

Enjoy your road map.

[Thunderhawk]

Guys seriously relax.....

The point being made here is that a voting system allows "anyone" to have a weight in a democracy when it comes to voting for something.

The point is, someone who has 1-2 days /played under their belt shouldn't be equal so someone who has say, 10+ days played under their belt.

They don't know the game well enough yet.

Forget Outfits for a second, a single (non-outfit) player who has played the game for 12 days (/played time) will have a better idea of the game mechanics than a single (non-outfit) player who has 1 day /played.

I think it's reasonable to assume everyone agrees on this.

----------

Now all the 10+ day players are free to disagree and argue and vote for different things all they want, thats fair enough.

[Stellarthief]

Guys seriously relax.....

The point being made here is that a voting system allows "anyone" to have a weight in a democracy when it comes to voting for something.

The point is, someone who has 1-2 days /played under their belt shouldn't be equal so someone who has say, 10+ days played under their belt.

They don't know the game well enough yet.

Forget Outfits for a second, a single (non-outfit) player who has played the game for 12 days (/played time) will have a better idea of the game mechanics than a single (non-outfit) player who has 1 day /played.

I think it's reasonable to assume everyone agrees on this.

----------

Now all the 10+ day players are free to disagree and argue and vote for different things all they want, thats fair enough.

I get your point. More well spoken. But that is also simply not true and an oversimplification.

As I've said before, I've played MMOs for 14 years now, since 1999. I have known people who have played for literally thousands of hours in game and still at the end had no clue about mechanics because they simple don't care. They just play the game and don't worry about these things. My wife is one of them, she leaves the mechanics to me, who I mostly leave to a friend of mine. Many people simply don't care how CoF acts, how bloom acts, how this affects that and what this or that does. They just wanna point, click, boom and the results are what is impotant to them.

Likewise, I know people who don't spend much time in game (RL constraints) but they spend more than double the in game time out of game researching mechanics, searching reddit, making builds and half the in game time is spent testing that stuff. These are people that don't want to point click boom, they want to know what point click boom does what it does and how to make it point click boom boom.

One of my points was that, time invested does not equal knowledge and it never has. It's a reasonable assumption, but not one I, as a developer, would lend so much weight.

The best way is to simply listen to everyone, filter the ideas and then go from there. Perhaps the most time consuming and probably the most stressful. But adding weight and excluding people's ideas based on something such as play time, not being in a well known outfit, etc. is super short sighted.

[VR Draco]

I think it's reasonable to assume everyone agrees on this.

Nope ^^

First of all, the voting-process is only a HINT, not a decision. Ideas with less than 1000 votes will not be less important than those with 10k.

BUT to say a player with only 1d played should have no opinion (exaggerated) is ridiculous.

First of all, you have NO IDEA how much experience someone has with other FPS, which could give another perspective.
Then FRESH ideas are a great thing in development. New players could get ideas an old player would never think of.

The thing is VALIDATION...and it is no matter of time oder whatever, everybody should be allowed to give his/her opinion and the only one who is allowed to validate this, are the Devs.
Older players could comment those ideas and say what they think, but to say only old players should be elective is stupid.

[Pella]

Guys seriously relax.....

The point being made here is that a voting system allows "anyone" to have a weight in a democracy when it comes to voting for something.

The point is, someone who has 1-2 days /played under their belt shouldn't be equal so someone who has say, 10+ days played under their belt.

They don't know the game well enough yet.

Forget Outfits for a second, a single (non-outfit) player who has played the game for 12 days (/played time) will have a better idea of the game mechanics than a single (non-outfit) player who has 1 day /played.

I think it's reasonable to assume everyone agrees on this.

----------

Now all the 10+ day players are free to disagree and argue and vote for different things all they want, thats fair enough.

Pritty much Bang on. I only mentioned these bigger outfits as there leaders have gone from PS1 through to PS2 And there ideas that of mine and many other vets.

[Pella]

First of all, you have NO IDEA how much experience someone has with other FPS, which could give another perspective.
Then FRESH ideas are a great thing in development. New players could get ideas an old player would never think of.

The thing is VALIDATION...and it is no matter of time oder whatever, everybody should be allowed to give his/her opinion and the only one who is allowed to validate this, are the Devs.
Older players could comment those ideas and say what they think, but to say only old players should be elective is stupid..

Everyone is are entitled to there opinion yes.

But i play CS:GO competitively. Now i wouldn't expect my opinion on that game to weigh more than the pros who came from Source and 1.6.. Hence why Valve have changed the game based directly from the top Pro's opinions no one elses.

[Stellarthief]

Nope ^^

First of all, the voting-process is only a HINT, not a decision. Ideas with less than 1000 votes will not be less important than those with 10k.

BUT to say a player with only 1d played should have no opinion (exaggerated) is ridiculous.

First of all, you have NO IDEA how much experience someone has with other FPS, which could give another perspective.
Then FRESH ideas are a great thing in development. New players could get ideas an old player would never think of.

The thing is VALIDATION...and it is no matter of time oder whatever, everybody should be allowed to give his/her opinion and the only one who is allowed to validate this, are the Devs.
Older players could comment those ideas and say what they think, but to say only old players should be elective is stupid.

Spot on!

[VR Draco]

Everyone is are entitled to there opinion yes.

But i play CS:GO competitively. Now i wouldn't expect my opinion on that game to weigh more than the pros who came from Source and 1.6.. Hence why Valve have changed the game based directly from the top Pro's opinions no one elses.

This is not YOUR decision, it is the decision of the DEVELOPER, whom opinion is more valid than others.

If SoE don't want a pseudo-elite game, then they should listen to the "casuals".
If they only listen to the PS1-vets, then PS2 will die like PS1, because only the vets want to play it.

[Stellarthief]

Everyone is are entitled to there opinion yes.

But i play CS:GO competitively. Now i wouldn't expect my opinion on that game to weigh more than the pros who came from Source and 1.6.. Hence why Valve have changed the game based directly from the top Pro's opinions no one elses.

e-sport direction and rules/adjustments is a bit different. Same with tight focus competitive gaming. Especially small scale gaming matches. The pros have more weight and rightly so.

IF PS2 manages to e-sport it up, I am all for the "pros" and the people heavily involved in the e-sport part defining how that part of the game goes.

But in the normal MMOFPS part of PS2, I don't agree with this. Everyone's opinions and ideas are just as valid and they shouldn't filter peoples suggestions based on such things as days played, experience in PS2, etc. before reading or having their computers analyse the idea. Book cover judging.

[Pella]

This is not YOUR decision, it is the decision of the DEVELOPER, whom opinion is more valid than others.

If SoE don't want a pseudo-elite game, then they should listen to the "casuals".
If they only listen to the PS1-vets, then PS2 will die like PS1, because only the vets want to play it.

What are you talking about?

Who said they dont want a Pseudo-Elite game? There entering into the Esports domain. Which is filled with it.

Reread what i am talking about.

[raw]

Hence why Valve have changed the game based directly from the top Pro's opinions no one elses.

I highly doubt that.

[Pella]

I highly doubt that.

Not to go off topic.

But the recent CS:GO patch was worked on closely with the top CS:GO team's. N i P and VeryGames, Common knowledge.

[Hamma]

I'm not a huge fan of the roadmap personally. But I would much rather have that than a CSM with "Huge Outfit Leaders" on it.. I don't want massive outfits deciding where this game goes either. Massive outfits would push forward what is good for them, not what is good for the game.

I think what we have now is probably the best balance we will get.

My biggest pet peeve right now is the people hanging around the community bitching who have quit the game.

[Pella]

I'm not a huge fan of the roadmap personally. But I would much rather have that than a CSM with "Huge Outfit Leaders" on it.. I don't want massive outfits deciding where this game goes either. Massive outfits would push forward what is good for them, not what is good for the game.

I think what we have now is probably the best balance we will get.

My biggest pet peeve right now is the people hanging around the community bitching who have quit the game.

Yes indeed. I only suggest these large outfits becuase the current leaders that i know have played through PS1 into PS2. And i would much rather have there opinion's effect the game than people who have not.

[SwiftRanger]

Forget Outfits for a second, a single (non-outfit) player who has played the game for 12 days (/played time) will have a better idea of the game mechanics than a single (non-outfit) player who has 1 day /played.
Sure but where do you put that treshold of "days played before being allowed to vote"? 12 days, 5 days, 2 days? :) I also don't think there are a lot of new players who are actively voting. Most votes are from folks who really follow the game's development and are heavily invested in it (time-wise). The casual new guy isn't interested in the Road Map, those players probably don't even know there is an official forum.

Again, this is all assuming that it is the vote count that's important which isn't if you read Matt Higby's tweets. The feedback itself in those threads is very useful, I'd say you all should still give it a shot of posting there. Your own posts with ideas might get a lot more (visible or not) approval than you think.

EDIT: only letting big outfit leaders vote/decide is asking for trouble for the smaller outfits and non-outfit players.

[Thunderhawk]

I prefer to limit myself to the Planetside universe forums due to the relative maturity of the community and the fact that Hamma is around to stomp on anything bad if it were to develop.

The official forums are full of irrational and often knee jerk rants about OP items and demands of nerfing which annoys me to the point of not wanting to even read it.

I think I'll stay here ;)

[SwiftRanger]

I know what you're talking about :) but the road map threads aren't as toxic as the rest of the official forum.

You don't necessarily have to hold the other posters into account, just post what you want in the specific thread and maybe the developers will notice your suggestion amidst the rubble and evil snarks.

In a sense it offers much more overview (for the developers then) than what any new thread in one of the other forum sections could hope to achieve. The only pity is that not every important subject is listed in the road map even though the developers are working on more stuff than just the road map features.

It's like SOE has posted up a restaurant menu but players can still offer advice about which sauce or drink that should go with it. And whether they like the dessert first...

[Pella]

I prefer to limit myself to the Planetside universe forums due to the relative maturity of the community and the fact that Hamma is around to stomp on anything bad if it were to develop.

The official forums are full of irrational and often knee jerk rants about OP items and demands of nerfing which annoys me to the point of not wanting to even read it.

I think I'll stay here ;)

Thats why i moved from it. We need sever forums. Hamma?

[Hamma]

I've thought about it.. but it's alot more forums to monitor.

[Pella]

I've thought about it.. but it's alot more forums to monitor.

Im sure it wont be a problem. And it would get allot more people here.

Just pick a few servers to start with. 1 EU 1 USA, East & West. Dont worry about the Auzzies.

[Thunderhawk]

I've thought about it.. but it's alot more forums to monitor.

You need more moderators then ;)

[Sirisian]

Yeah I suggested before it was released that the roadmap needed a simple BR limit of 30. A limit like this makes it so that players have played the game for a while and tried the classes and certs and are familiar possibly with the other factions before they comment.

I'm hoping they can retroactively implement such a limit into the roadmap as it's currently spiraling into a lot of stupid posts. That or it needs some heavy moderation to remove things that aren't suggestions. Seeing a lot of off-topic discussion on them.

Honestly even the official forums needs it. I quickly looked at the complaint threads and they're by people with BR < 10 more often than not. It looks like they logged in and then went right to the forum. That or it needs a currently active account to discuss in the "Gameplay" discussion forum.

[wasdie]

Works better than any system I've seen before. You need to get a wide range of opinions. Often the guys with 10+ days in a game are extremely single minded. They forget the game isn't just for them.

It's not some computer taking the voting and applying changes. It's real humans who have the powers to deduce things. You have to trust them a bit more.

They need to split their time between making the game fun for all and making it fun for the ones that can see passed the errors and commit themselves to the game. You have got to have both. The roadmap allows for that better than any way I've seen.

[Hamma]

You need more moderators then ;)

Yea - hard part is finding mods that aren't nazi's + won't disappear.

[Wahooo]

The best way is to simply listen to everyone, filter the ideas and then go from there. Perhaps the most time consuming and probably the most stressful. But adding weight and excluding people's ideas based on something such as play time, not being in a well known outfit, etc. is super short sighted.

It is a very time consuming and stressful approach that has a very high likely hood of failing, which is why there is the skepticism about it.

Look at the Ideas sub-forum here. Now count the number of good ideas vs the number of absolute crap ideas. Then look at how adamant some people are about their horrid ideas or their low opinions of good ideas, and imagine having to wade through that.

Said it before I'll say it again. EVERY online game is criticized by the player base for the Devs not listening to the players, but the truth is most players really don't know what is good for them, and finding the good few to listen to can be VERY hard. The idea for the road map looks like they are actually encouraging the dilution of the people who DO know, who DO care, who UNDERSTAND game balance and what would and would not make it fun.

Games have been ruined because developers listened to the wrong players and we are just worried they are making the job harder on themselves to hear from the right players.

[Stellarthief]

As I said.

Listening to everyone is the best course, not filtering the suggestion based on some player criteria (i.e. days played, BR, outfit status, popularity,etc.)

You still need to filter the suggestions and based on the suggestions themselves, not who suggest them.

[Sifer2]

The irony is the people that even visit the official forums are already a minority group. Something like less than 10% of most games players will read official forums. So it's already a smaller more vocal group that is even responding/voting in Roadmap threads. Were talking a few thousand out of like a few hundred thousand.

I agree that big Outfits should be listened too as they know the game inside, and out. But trying to get an even smaller sample size of opinions on the Roadmap is a bit silly. If the devs really wanted feedback the vote would be ingame on the login screen.

[Stellarthief]

If the devs really wanted feedback the vote would be ingame on the login screen.

That's an even better idea. Guildwars 2 did that with a survey in beta for each quest, etc.