Nerf the NC MAX.

[Assist]

They nerfed the Magrider because it was unfair, to the point that it's the least spawned tank (imo). They nerfed the TRAC-5 to make it more fair with the other two factions. Why is the biggest imbalance in the game since release, the NC MAX, still left alone? I don't want to hear arguments about the range of it, the same style of argument could be used for the Magrider and TRAC-5.

They want to make the game full of mediocrity why don't they do it for all factions?

For those of you who played DAoC, does this not scream of the Left Axe nerf? Do the right thing SoE. Nerf the LA(not that one)

[ShadetheDruid]

I honestly don't see what's so scary about the NC MAX. The other day I went on a rampage and killed like 6 of them in 10 minutes in a biolab (LA with C4), including two at once who I flanked because my numbnut teammates thought it was a good idea to charge them head on in a tiny room.

Even without the power of the jetpacking Santa, they're not hard to kill with a rocket launcher or a grenade launcher (both take like two hits to kill one).

If anything, that's an argument for MAXes in general being underpowered.

That said, i've said before if you want to nerf scattercannons, take off some damage in exchange for a bit more range (so they aren't totally useless).

[Sledgecrushr]

Nc scat maxes need a buff, they are absolutely worthless outside of 10 meters.

[Assist]

I honestly don't see what's so scary about the Magrider. The other day I went on a rampage and killed like 6 of them in 10 minutes in a Amp Station (LA with C4), including two at once who I flanked because my numbnut teammates thought it was a good idea to charge them head on in a tiny room.

Even without the power of the jetpacking Santa, they're not hard to kill with a rocket launcher or a tank mine (both take like two hits to kill one).

If anything, that's an argument for Magriders in general being underpowered.

That said, i've said before if you want to nerf the Magrider cannons, take off some damage in exchange for a bit more range (so they aren't totally useless).

Like I said, I don't want these kind of arguments that could of been used in the same manner against the other nerfs.

[Baneblade]

I've never felt OP in the NC MAX. But then I spend more time in every other class.

[Sturmhardt]

There is no need to nerf it, it's useless if you are farther than 10m away. You could say I'm biased because I'm NC, but I would totally use a cycler max anytime. BTW, did those get a buff? They became really dangerous lately.

BTW, you can't say " I'm not listening to that argument" just because you want to.

.sent via phone.

[ShadetheDruid]

Like I said, I don't want these kind of arguments that could of been used in the same manner against the other nerfs.

It's a completely different situation, though. An NC MAX's weakness is distance, unless you purposely run up in its face it's not going to do much to you.

A Magrider's weakness, on the other hand, is close up. Good luck even getting near the thing unless the driver screws up and gets into a close quarters environment (hardly a massive weakness for a Magrider, considering all tanks have that weakness), especially pre-patch when they could perch on cliff faces infantry couldn't even get up.

[Dragonskin]

It's a completely different situation, though. An NC MAX's weakness is distance, unless you purposely run up in its face it's not going to do much to you.

A Magrider's weakness, on the other hand, is close up. Good luck even getting near the thing unless the driver screws up and gets into a close quarters environment (hardly a massive weakness for a Magrider, considering all tanks have that weakness), especially pre-patch when they could perch on cliff faces infantry couldn't even get up.

The NC MAX's disadvantage is range. Good luck getting a ranged advantage in a Biolab.. or close quarters situation like towers or tech labs... which is the only situation you would see the scattermax. Since they are beast mode at close range.

See... that is the circle arguement he is saying he doesn't want to hear. Magriders and TRAC-5 had disadvantages just like the scattermax. Didn't matter, people complained enough and they were nerfed. So why can't the scattermax be nerfed to be more like other Maxs? Why is the VS max terrible at everything? Everyone wants everything to be homogenized. Time the scattermax is brought down to the same standards instead of adjusting things up like they should have done at the start. I'm with the OP on this one. Down with the scattermax and screw arguements because in the end SOE will do what the people want.

[Rbstr]

Running into an NC MAX around a corner is a fun panic situation. Seeing an NC max down the hall is easy pickings. Even in a biolab there's lots of distance that makes the NC max nearly useless. Being an insane death machine really close up is OK in that context.
...A lot of games get up-close DPS balance screwed up because they fail to account for damage-dealt-in-closing (see EVE and blasters). I think they did it right here.

[Stellarthief]

I feel like the NC max is fine. If I run into one and die, I feel like its my own fault more than it being OP in any way.

[Dragonskin]

Before people come at me... I feel this way largely because the playerbase is slowly asking for all faction differencies to be erased and everything be the same. Tired of it, just get it done with if that is the path they are going to go.. otherwise SOE needs to put a foot down and tell people that factions are supposed to have uniqueness to them to make them stand out... if it isn't exactly fair.. then tough. I have a feeling that in 3 months or so the factions will all be the same.. nothing special besides color scheme and weapon animations.

[Ruffdog]

Nc scat maxes need a buff, they are absolutely worthless outside of 10 meters.

This 10m myth is laughable. Try 20-25m. Unless I've been going up against a shit load of aimbotters, I'm dead before I can even hit Shift to sprint the hell out of there.

And the rate you can obliterate Maxes with ANTI INFANTRY weaponry....
no, you don't get a buff.

[superseohyun]

The NC MAX's disadvantage is range. Good luck getting a ranged advantage in a Biolab.. or close quarters situation like towers or tech labs... which is the only situation you would see the scattermax. Since they are beast mode at close range.

See... that is the circle arguement he is saying he doesn't want to hear. Magriders and TRAC-5 had disadvantages just like the scattermax. Didn't matter, people complained enough and they were nerfed. So why can't the scattermax be nerfed to be more like other Maxs? Why is the VS max terrible at everything? Everyone wants everything to be homogenized. Time the scattermax is brought down to the same standards instead of adjusting things up like they should have done at the start. I'm with the OP on this one. Down with the scattermax and screw arguements because in the end SOE will do what the people want.
why cant you get ranged advantage in biolab, towers and tech labs? i dont understand. Because max is slow, it should be relatively easy get out of its effective range. If it camp inside a room, well, grenade.
regarding the Magriders, they have advantage at where most tank battle takes place(lol good luck get out of their effective range), thus they can pull out K/D ratio 2-3 times greater than other MBTs. Does NC Max have advantage at where most infantry battle takes place? i dont think so.
However i agree that VS max need buff to their AI weapon... that accuracy...
edit: scat TTK on Max is questionable though.

[Sturmhardt]

The NC MAX's disadvantage is range. Good luck getting a ranged advantage in a Biolab..

Uh yeah.. No problem, smart players outrun me all the time. I only kill the stupid ones in masses.

.sent via phone.

[Stellarthief]

Before people come at me... I feel this way largely because the playerbase is slowly asking for all faction differencies to be erased and everything be the same. Tired of it, just get it done with if that is the path they are going to go.. otherwise SOE needs to put a foot down and tell people that factions are supposed to have uniqueness to them to make them stand out... if it isn't exactly fair.. then tough. I have a feeling that in 3 months or so the factions will all be the same.. nothing special besides color scheme and weapon animations.

Do you understand where they are coming from though?

With the way the game is designed certain differences turn into basic advantages in certain situations. These situations come more often for these people than the other situations where their opponents have disadvantages.

Example is the NCmax. A beast in CQC. If all people do is get into CQC I would understand why they think its OP. If all people do is long/medium range out doors, I can see how the magrider is OP.

With the short TTK in the game I understand how people feel bursty weapons are better than non bursty weapons.

If you dont want to snipe, until now that the SMGs came out, many were unsatisfied with the "balance" of infils and their lackluster role.

It's all a perspective thing about what aspects of the game you are playing imo. Many things in this game have the advantage in situation a, but disadvantage in b. But you spend most of your time in either a or b, not both equally.
I personally try to get into as much CQC/medium range combat as I can as I mostly play LA with carbine. When I find myself at medium/long range or open field combat I die way too much and don't enjoy the game (everything OPs me when I run through open field with a carbine and cant kill anything), so I avoid it. I don't complain that bla bla is OP or I am UP.

The only way to appease the masses is to make everything the same. But the game loses it's identity like that and just becomes a big shooter where faction is chosen based upon what colour your tights are...

I hope the game retains the uniqueness.

[Dragonskin]

Uh yeah.. No problem, smart players outrun me all the time. I only kill the stupid ones in masses.

.sent via phone.

Smart players could kill Magriders pre-nerf. What is your arguement again? Magriders only reliably killed stupid players. Again, no need for logic in this debate. It's as simple as nerf it because people want it nerfed.

The agruement shouldn't be logical because smart players can always take the situation to their advantage and kill whatever they are faced against. The arguement should be for dumbing down the game more because stupid people can't counter things... like the magriders, ESFs or Trac-5. That's how it works. SOE started nerfing because the playerbase wanted it. Now the cycle must continue until all players are happy and all factions are identical... we wouldn't want to try to breed smarter players or anything.

[Sturmhardt]

Smart players could kill Magriders pre-nerf. What is your arguement again? Magriders only reliably killed stupid players. Again, no need for logic in this debate. It's as simple as nerf it because people want it nerfed.

The agruement shouldn't be logical because smart players can always take the situation to their advantage and kill whatever they are faced against. The arguement should be for dumbing down the game more because stupid people can't counter things... like the magriders, ESFs or Trac-5. That's how it works. SOE started nerfing because the playerbase wanted it. Now the cycle must continue until all players are happy and all factions are identical... we wouldn't want to try to breed smarter players or anything.

That's just wrong and you know it. There was no real way to outsmart a Magrider, it had no real weakness, on range it was much better than everything else and close up it was just as good as the others because the front armor would always face you. That's the difference between op and balanced.
The nc max definitely has huge downsides and it's really easy to keep a distance. Stop pulling the Magrider into this discussion, it has nothing to do with it.

.sent via phone.

[Sledgecrushr]

NC vs TR MAXes (MAX on MAX) - Planetside 2 - YouTube

[Sturmhardt]

Smart players could kill Magriders pre-nerf. What is your arguement again? Magriders only reliably killed stupid players. Again, no need for logic in this debate. It's as simple as nerf it because people want it nerfed.

The agruement shouldn't be logical because smart players can always take the situation to their advantage and kill whatever they are faced against. The arguement should be for dumbing down the game more because stupid people can't counter things... like the magriders, ESFs or Trac-5. That's how it works. SOE started nerfing because the playerbase wanted it. Now the cycle must continue until all players are happy and all factions are identical... we wouldn't want to try to breed smarter players or anything.

That's just wrong and you know it. There was no real way to outsmart a Magrider, it had no real weakness, on range it was much better than everything else and close up it was just as good as the others because the front armor would always face you. That's the difference between op and balanced. The nc max definitely has huge downsides and it's really easy to keep a distance. Stop pulling the Magrider into this discussion, it has nothing to do with it.

.sent via phone.

[Dragonskin]

That's just wrong and you know it. There was no real way to outsmart a Magrider, it had no real weakness, on range it was much better than everything else and close up it was just as good as the others because the front arbor would always face you. That's the difference between op and balanced. The nc max definitely has huge downsides and it's really easy to keep a distance. Stop pulling the Magrider into this discussion, it has nothing to do with it.

.sent via phone.

Um... you are NC... I don't want to hear about your vanguards against a magrider. You aren't limited in firing on your targets according to terrain since your turret is mounted on top. You have an ability to absorb damage so that you don't die as easily and your turrets do more damage per shot than a magrider... as well has having better overall armor than a magrider.

It's rare to see a vanguard tank use the shield. If they do they win in a 1v1 against a magrider hands down. I can count on 1 hand how many times I have seen the NC shield on a vanguard activated. I bet most NC don't even have it certed.

It has everything to do with the conversation. Because people are too stupid to use the vanguard to its strengths they got the magrider nerfed. If you watch Levelcap or other higher skill capped players then you can see him tear threw magriders with his vanguard.

So again... we are arguing for the game to be dumbed down more because people are stupid so uniqueness has to be destroyed.

[Mastachief]

Um... you are NC... I don't want to hear about your vanguards against a magrider. You aren't limited in firing on your targets according to terrain since your turret is mounted on top. You have an ability to absorb damage so that you don't die as easily and your turrets do more damage per shot than a magrider... as well has having better overall armor than a magrider.

It's rare to see a vanguard tank use the shield. If they do they win in a 1v1 against a magrider hands down. I can count on 1 hand how many times I have seen the NC shield on a vanguard activated. I bet most NC don't even have it certed.

It has everything to do with the conversation. Because people are too stupid to use the vanguard to its strengths they got the magrider nerfed. If you watch Levelcap or other higher skill capped players then you can see him tear threw magriders with his vanguard.

So again... we are arguing for the game to be dumbed down more because people are stupid so uniqueness has to be destroyed.

For a tank to be balanced it must be killable by both smart and stupid players alike across all factions. The mag had a distinct advantage (still does in many situations). Also the vanguard aim is effected by terrain.

To the thread.

NC max units are fine and only good at CQB the lack the versatility of the TR and VS.

If you want to nerf something how about we give the default trac 5 some recoil.

[Dragonskin]

NC vs TR MAXes (MAX on MAX) - Planetside 2 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBw_I_GCmho)

Your vid highlights DPS over time vs burst damage against targets with a larger HP pool. What are you trying to prove?

Put a infantry dude in front of that scattermax and press left + right mouse buttons at the same time. What happens then?

[Dragonskin]

NC max units are fine and only good at CQB the lack the versatility of the TR and VS.

What exactly is the VS max good at? What can it do that TR and NC can't do better?

[Baneblade]

I'm surprised this thread isn't bitching about the Dual Falcon MAX tbh. Nobody honestly thinks you should be able to survive in CQB against a pissed off Smurf with two shotguns.

[Sturmhardt]

The shield only lasts 4 seconds, dragonskin. Now stop talking about tanks if you want to talk about maxes.

.sent via phone.

[PurpleOtter]

As said before, the NC Scat-MAX is not OP. Engage at range and kill it. If you are unfortunate enough to let it get close, you will likely die. All MAX's need a slight buff vrs. small arms, the current game play mechanic of MAX vrs. damage from explosives, rockets and cannon is just about perfect. I would suggest making MAX's impervious to all small arms except for the Mini Chain Gun, Lasher and the Jackhammer. Heavy Assault weaponry should be the only infantry class to damage a MAX, excepting explosives of course.

[Dragonskin]

The shield only lasts 4 seconds, dragonskin. Now stop talking about tanks if you want to talk about maxes.

.sent via phone.

4 seconds is enough to completely negate 1 shot. Since the vanguard only needs 3 shots to land to kill a magrider then that makes all the difference.

Like I said previously.. only agreeing with the OP because people can't use strengths and weaknesses properly in the game. So why can't we nerf more things that have clear counters to them because people are too lazy to figure out or use properly?

I am talking about maxes too. Are you not reading the rest of my posts? What does a VS max do that is unique or an advantage that the NC or TR can not do?

[Dragonskin]

As said before, the NC Scat-MAX is not OP. Engage at range and kill it. If you are unfortunate enough to let it get close, you will likely die. All MAX's need a slight buff vrs. small arms, the current game play mechanic of MAX vrs. damage from explosives, rockets and cannon is just about perfect. I would suggest making MAX's impervious to all small arms except for the Mini Chain Gun, Lasher and the Jackhammer. Heavy Assault weaponry should be the only infantry class to damage a MAX, excepting explosives of course.

I actually agree with this, but the problem is that people can't figure out how to play the game already. In beta I could have sworn that the MAXes were a lot more resistant to small arms fire. I used to be scared of them as infantry.

[superseohyun]

NC vs TR MAXes (MAX on MAX) - Planetside 2 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBw_I_GCmho)

uploaded Sep 3, 2012

WOW

[maradine]

Keep scissors sharp, rocks hard, and paper thin. Homogenization is for milk.

[Dragonskin]

Keep scissors sharp, rocks hard, and paper thin. Homogenization is for milk.

This is what I am saying and proving a point that people refuse to use counters properly which is why needless nerfs are called. The problem is that SOE is already homogenizing the game. Which is a endless cycle that leads to the factions uniqueness being destroyed. If they want factions to be different then they need to stop nerfing and possibly revert some changes already made. Buff the proper counters so that they work as intended.

[Assist]

Some of you missed the point of the post. You can argue the advantages of the NC MAX and the disadvantages of the NC MAX the same way you could argue the advantages and disadvantages of the Magrider or TRAC-5. I think the past 10 posts have proven this, incase for some reason you still haven't caught on. For those who say you can out distance a MAX congratulations, you can also hide behind a rock vs a tank. There's ways around everything in this game, just as there were solutions to Magriders and the TRAC-5. They nerfed TR and VS so they can be more in-line with NC. NC however still have a distinct advantage in all CQC due to their MAX, I think the evidence can point to the number of NC the first two months of the game who had ridiculous kill numbers(10-20k above TR/VS) and were primarily in their MAX.

The point of the post is that the game is slowly becoming a game where everyone is the same faction. I was attempting to get the replies to shine a light on this and some of you have. My opinion on it, if they don't want to continue this trend and nerf the NC MAX(which is coming), is they should make the game how it should be. Give the TR their ridiculous mag size with the fastest firing guns, give the NC more damage on their guns, and remove the distance damage drop off from the VS while nerfing their fire-rate. Everyone will be unique then. The tanks should be the same way, IMO. Give the VS the mobility(with lower damage), give the Prowler the speed(movement), and make the Vanguard a true tank(double hp).

I don't want a game with three factions that all play the same, but that's what they've been balancing the game to and quite frankly it's boring that the game has been reduced to only infantry fights for the game to be 'fun'. This game should be about strategic military style warfare.

Of course the first thing that needs to be changed/fixed is the render distance. That one issue is plaguing this game so bad in the large scale fights that everyone has started to accept it. When the strategy to hold a base from being overrun is to get more people there and abuse the render distance, that says a lot about the game :(

[ShadetheDruid]

The reason people aren't getting what you're saying is because it's just like what you see on the official forums. If you're going to try making a point, best not to use the point of someone who makes it seriously. :p

This is all irrelevent though, since didn't Higby already say the crippled Magrider movement was unintentional?

What's not a mistake, though, is trying to fix Magriders so they can't go places no one else can go (not even infantry.. well, maybe a LAs, but that's about it). That being going on massive cliff faces and sitting there like it's no big deal. That not only screws up tank vs tank balance, it has a much bigger affect on tank vs infantry balance.

[Sturmhardt]

No, you confuse balancing with being overpowered. Being overpowered means that something is the best choice for nearly every situation. The Magrider was better or as good as the other tanks in MOST situations. There was no situation where you could say "Oh, now I can kill that Magrider easily!". Just no. It was ALWAYS dangerous and in a distance it was impossible to hit and it could climb every hill. I always fear the Magrider on all distances and I am not a too bad tank driver. The same goes for the Trac-5, it was just too good compared to what the other empires had.

The NC Max is only strong in certain (close range) situations, just like the VS and TR MAXs are strong on midrange. There is a difference between ALWAYS good and sometimes good, sometimes bad. That's what some of you don't seem to see.

If you say NC MAXes are OP you can also say shotguns are OP because they are better than assault rifles in CQC.

Edit: But I believe we will see some close range weapon for non NC MAXs in the future... it would be sad for the game, but SOE could make good money with it, so I guess they will sell it.

Edit²: Check out these 2 videos and say the NC MAX is overpowered:
[Test] NC MAX vs. TR MAX Anti-infantry weaponry 11.01.13 - YouTube
[Test] NC MAX vs. VS MAX Anti-infantry weaponry 14.01.13 - YouTube

It gets ripped apart by bots VS and TR MAXs at 10m.

[HiroshiChugi]

Am I the ONLY ONE who remembers the descriptions of the factions that the devs gave?!?!??

Terran Republic: Bigger clips, normal damage.

Vanu Soverignty: Faster shooting, smaller damage.

New Conglomerate: Hits hard, lower firing rate.


I mean, HELLO!! The devs told you that the NC would be doing the most damage, but that they would be firing slower than the other two factions. NC hits the hardest (does the most damage) out of all three factions. They fire the slowest out of all three factions. Stop complaining about the NC MAXes because if they nerf them, next you'll be complaining about either the Vanguard or the Reaver. You can claim that I'm biased because I'm NC all God damn day long but I'm only stating facts. Check your facts before complaining about the other factions. Thank you, have a nice day! :D ^_^

Edit: Assist, I didn't even have to read to the second page of this thread before I knew what you would be saying the whole time. You remind me of that guy a month or two ago that complained that the rear armor of the tanks needed to be buffed. xD

[PurpleOtter]

I am talking about maxes too. Are you not reading the rest of my posts? What does a VS max do that is unique or an advantage that the NC or TR can not do?

Causing the opposing factions to miss from uncontrollable laughter due to the VS MAX's waving their hands in the air like giant spastic purple Kermit the frogs!

...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
<==============
...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
==============>
...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
<==============
...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
==============>

[psijaka]

Speaking as someone who regularly engages tanks as an NC AV MAX, I can without doubt say that the pre patch Magrider was far more dangerous than the Prowler; a much harder nut to crack.

I've yet to cert/buy dual Scattercannons, but from my experience with running a single Scat, they are pretty useless at anything other than close range. I would prefer to go with the TR MAX for AI combat (but I'm not whining that I want it nerfed).

[Assist]

No, you confuse balancing with being overpowered. Being overpowered means that something is the best choice for nearly every situation. The Magrider was better or as good as the other tanks in MOST situations. There was no situation where you could say "Oh, now I can kill that Magrider easily!". Just no. It was ALWAYS dangerous and in a distance it was impossible to hit and it could climb every hill. I always fear the Magrider on all distances and I am not a too bad tank driver. The same goes for the Trac-5, it was just too good compared to what the other empires had.

The NC Max is only strong in certain (close range) situations, just like the VS and TR MAXs are strong on midrange. There is a difference between ALWAYS good and sometimes good, sometimes bad. That's what some of you don't seem to see.

If you say NC MAXes are OP you can also say shotguns are OP because they are better than assault rifles in CQC.

Edit: But I believe we will see some close range weapon for non NC MAXs in the future... it would be sad for the game, but SOE could make good money with it, so I guess they will sell it.

Edit²: Check out these 2 videos and say the NC MAX is overpowered:
[Test] NC MAX vs. TR MAX Anti-infantry weaponry 11.01.13 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5otUpvaRvSA)
[Test] NC MAX vs. VS MAX Anti-infantry weaponry 14.01.13 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bioowEHxj9U)

It gets ripped apart by bots VS and TR MAXs at 10m.

How about this, you give me your NC MAX and I'll give you my VS MAX. Since, you know they're balanced. Right?

No offense to you, but an NC player making a video of the NC MAX getting destroyed is like me making a montage of my Magrider blowing up. What does it mean in the end? Nothing.

As once stated by the man himself; you have to see how the game plays out rather than just looking at the numbers in small instances. As the game plays out right now, NC MAX outperforms the TR/VS Max by quite a bit more than the Magrider outperformed the Vanguard/Prowler.

[psijaka]

Edit²: Check out these 2 videos and say the NC MAX is overpowered:

-snip-=

It gets ripped apart by bots VS and TR MAXs at 10m.

Thanks for posting this; absolute proof that the NC AI MAX is not OP.

(\thread)

[Assist]

Thanks for posting this; absolute proof that the NC AI MAX is not OP.

(\thread)

lol, if you're serious that's funny. If you're not serious it's even funnYer

[psijaka]

As once stated by the man himself; you have to see how the game plays out rather than just looking at the numbers in small instances. As the game plays out right now, NC MAX outperforms the TR/VS Max by quite a bit more than the Magrider outperformed the Vanguard/Prowler.

So you think that you are in a better position to see how the game plays out than SoE, who have access to a huge amount of data on MBT, MAX performance?

[psijaka]

I'm loving seeing all these Vanu tears.

[Assist]

So you think that you are in a better position to see how the game plays out than SoE, who have access to a huge amount of data on MBT, MAX performance?

When did they give out the numbers on MAX performance?

[HiroshiChugi]

did ANYONE see the fucking post i put? It puts Assist's argument to rest. case in point.

[Sledgecrushr]

How can something be OP when its worthless past ten meters? I dont understand the logic on these calls for a nerf.

[psijaka]

When did they give out the numbers on MAX performance?

Whoever said that they gave them out?

did ANYONE see the fucking post i put? It puts Assist's argument to rest. case in point.

I did and I agree; it does.

[HiroshiChugi]

exactly my point. he's bitching about something the devs put in place BEFOE they realeased info about the game. i'm pretty sure the devs are dead setting on keeping the maxes as they are,if not,adding abilities to them.

[Assist]

did ANYONE see the fucking post i put? It puts Assist's argument to rest. case in point.

Did you not read the rest of my posts where I stated I was attempting to prove exactly what you said?

It doesn't put the argument to rest, as so far SoE has done the opposite of what your post and my post have stated the game should be like.

[Assist]

exactly my point. he's bitching about something the devs put in place BEFOE they realeased info about the game. i'm pretty sure the devs are dead setting on keeping the maxes as they are,if not,adding abilities to them.

One day, you too will be able to read posts rather than complain about people not reading yours.

edit: http://www.planetside-universe.com/showpost.php?p=885923&postcount=32
there it is for you, if you're unable to find it in this thread.

[Dragonskin]

Am I the ONLY ONE who remembers the descriptions of the factions that the devs gave?!?!??

Terran Republic: Bigger clips, normal damage.

Vanu Soverignty: Faster shooting, smaller damage.

New Conglomerate: Hits hard, lower firing rate.


I mean, HELLO!! The devs told you that the NC would be doing the most damage, but that they would be firing slower than the other two factions. NC hits the hardest (does the most damage) out of all three factions. They fire the slowest out of all three factions. Stop complaining about the NC MAXes because if they nerf them, next you'll be complaining about either the Vanguard or the Reaver. You can claim that I'm biased because I'm NC all God damn day long but I'm only stating facts. Check your facts before complaining about the other factions. Thank you, have a nice day! :D ^_^

Edit: Assist, I didn't even have to read to the second page of this thread before I knew what you would be saying the whole time. You remind me of that guy a month or two ago that complained that the rear armor of the tanks needed to be buffed. xD

The point... you missed it... completely. I would suggest reading a thread before blinding posting and telling people they don't know what they are talking about.

[Timealude]

from the VS one against the NC, it looks like the damage drop off was starting to effect the TTK at about 30m+. I noticed though in all three times they fought, that 5m the NC max won everytime. So like people were saying earlier close range NC scatmax has the advantage hands down...I mean come on....you have freakin shotguns on your arms why would they be effective at long range...I believe honestly that the TR has the most advantage with range because if the play is good enough he can keep that CoF down and if they ever do add the anchor back in, you can bet that thing is going to a beast when set up.

[HiroshiChugi]

One day, you too will be able to read posts rather than complain about people not reading yours.

edit: http://www.planetside-universe.com/showpost.php?p=885923&postcount=32
there it is for you, if you're unable to find it in this thread.

I'm just saying you keep complaining about the same thing that's been complained about since the game was released for testing. That's all I'm saying. xD

[ShadetheDruid]

...and if they ever do add the anchor back in, you can bet that thing is going to a beast when set up.

Then there will be even more complaining about NC MAXes due to the shield. :p Though i'm curious what they'll do for the VS MAX instead of jumpjets.

[Bocheezu]

How can something be OP when its worthless past ten meters? I dont understand the logic on these calls for a nerf.

Because the entire game, or at least the part that really matters, is the 10m in front of your face. The radius on capture points isn't 40 or 50m. People have to get within 5-10m (whatever the capture radius is) to capture anything. Most of those capture points are inside a building and can't be shot at from range. So, even though there are tanks and planes and sniper rifles the game boils down to CQC and the 10m, and the faction that is best in CQC will have the easiest time capturing those points. This is why people never complain about sniper balance, because snipers never capture anything.

It's the same ol' arguments from PS1 about how the Jackhammer was OP and ruins the game because it was the king of CQC.

[psijaka]

How about this, you give me your NC MAX and I'll give you my VS MAX. Since, you know they're balanced. Right?

No offense to you, but an NC player making a video of the NC MAX getting destroyed is like me making a montage of my Magrider blowing up. What does it mean in the end? Nothing.

As once stated by the man himself; you have to see how the game plays out rather than just looking at the numbers in small instances. As the game plays out right now, NC MAX outperforms the TR/VS Max by quite a bit more than the Magrider outperformed the Vanguard/Prowler.

I would take you up on that swap for general AI work. But I'll keep my Dual Falcons for AV work, thanks.

No offence to you, but a VS player making a post that the NC MAX is OP is hardly likely to be objective is it. What does it mean in the end? Nothing.

Do you have proof that the NC MAX outperforms the VS MAX at anything other than very close range? Or is this thread based upon nothing more than hyperbole?

[Dragonskin]

I would take you up on that swap for general AI work. But I'll keep my Dual Falcons for AV work, thanks.

No offence to you, but a VS player making a post that the NC MAX is OP is hardly likely to be objective is it. What does it mean in the end? Nothing.

Do you have proof that the NC MAX outperforms the VS MAX at anything other than very close range? Or is this thread based upon nothing more than hyperbole?

This thread actually isn't about the NC MAX needing a justification for a nerf. It's about people calling for nerfs just because they can.

Maybe Maradine's thread was needed. :rolleyes:

[Timealude]

Then there will be even more complaining about NC MAXes due to the shield. :p Though i'm curious what they'll do for the VS MAX instead of jumpjets.

i think they should give it a transformation mode where we turn into an actual Vanu for 10 seconds and shoot giant lazer beams :lol:

[Dragonskin]

i think they should give it a transformation mode where we turn into an actual Vanu for 10 seconds and shoot giant lazer beams :lol:

That instagib players within 10m.. according to the NC guys that is totally legit right? :lol:

[HiroshiChugi]

That instagib players within 10m.. according to the NC guys that is totally legit right? :lol:

I would actually laugh my ass off if that happened to me. xD

[Dragonskin]

I would actually laugh my ass off if that happened to me. xD

The first time, yes. The 100th time, no. You would be on here calling for nerfs like everyone else. Just saying..

[Sturmhardt]

No offense to you, but an NC player making a video of the NC MAX getting destroyed is like me making a montage of my Magrider blowing up. What does it mean in the end? Nothing.

I don't know the guy who made the videos. I only know that his setup is good and is a perfect experiment to test how OP a MAX really is. Why do you think it's not credible? I'm interested in facts here.

I post them again in case someone reads this and doesn't know what we are talking about:
Vid1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bioowEHxj9U)
Vid2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5otUpvaRvSA)

P.S. I would love to try your vanu MAX! I don't know how I would like it in the long run, but I would like to give it a try.

edit: lol, thanks psijaka, exactly my thoughts:

No offence to you, but a VS player making a post that the NC MAX is OP is hardly likely to be objective is it. What does it mean in the end? Nothing.

Do you have proof that the NC MAX outperforms the VS MAX at anything other than very close range? Or is this thread based upon nothing more than hyperbole?

[HiroshiChugi]

no,just asking to remove it or limit its usage severely

[Maniya]

Flash grenade is quite useful when you counter door ambush NC Maxes.Throwing normal grenade might work if engineer and combat medics are not around with it but most time, when you facing organized squad, you will face Maxes with engineers and medics around. So other distractions should be approached towards NC Maxes if they are with Engineers and Medics.

The problem with other faction Max users is, they do exact same thing to counter NC Maxes, when NC Maxes trying to counter others. Which is close combat situation. Ambush NC Maxes next to the door when you know NC Max trying to rush in? What happens in next few seconds? Death screen. I rather use Engineer turrets from certain distances or use other routes to go behind them with few number of LA C4 equipped on.

According to the video that i watched, "NC Max vs other Maxes in duel mode in different distances" I don't really see much problem with maxes. The thing is any organized squad can shut me down even in Bio Labs or when NC assaulting Bio Labs, its really hard to assault them if they know what to do to counter NC Maxes.

Well, that's my thoughts. I can't really think of fair way to adjust this thing.

Edit: Maybe change the Charge ability of other faction Maxes into something different and unique since NC Maxes with Charge works just perfect.

[AThreatToYou]

I'll give an emphatic no. I say this not on the principle that it isn't or is overpowered. I say this on the principle of it being a MAX unit and therefore should not be nerfed, because the MAX units in PS2 freaking suck and should be buffed long before they are nerfed. I say this for all empires. TR, VS, and NC MAX units need some attention.

[Baneblade]

How about this, you give me your NC MAX and I'll give you my VS MAX.

Deal.

[Assist]

There's more NC posters in this thread than there are playing on my server on a given night.

[Carver]

The VS anti-infantry MAX is prettymuch useless beyond 20m too but it doesn't fucking instant kill people with one double-trigger pull (and neither does the TR MAX.) That's what I think everyone hates. It's not that it's really effective at close range, it's that it's so good you can't even react, you can't retreat. You are just dead in about .2 seconds.

The worst is a biolab seige. Kicking out 50-75 dug in defenders is already impossible, but when a pair of NC Maxes with double shotgun instant death is waiting for you at every doorway and around every corner it's downright demoralizing.

[Baneblade]

I've yet to see you on the battlefield. But then I only have a small window to play usually.

[AThreatToYou]

Also, put slug rounds on your NC max. It becomes loads more flexible.

[Maniya]

SOE should work on EMP grenades to counter Maxes, perhaps.

[Baneblade]

Or they could abandon this dual wield thing in favor of shields (as in riot shields) to give them durability they really do need.

[MaxDamage]

I don't want the NC MAX nerfed, I want it deleted.

[Sledgecrushr]

I don't want the NC MAX nerfed, I want it deleted.

Lol, I bet you do.

[Zaik]

NC vs TR MAXes (MAX on MAX) - Planetside 2 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBw_I_GCmho)

This is beta footage from when the NC max was total garbage. The scattercannons had a 5 round magazine. You could unload 10 shots directly into another MAX and it wasn't enough to kill them. Therefore, NC MAX would lose exactly 100% of max vs max engagements because it is also the slowest max and couldn't ever escape unless it had charge up and the other max did not. We never used them unless we had access to double flamethrowers, which were direct upgrades to the scattercannons in basically every way.

All they did to fix it was increase the magazine capacity by 2. Now there's 14 instead of 10, enough to kill a MAX in one full double scattercannon magdump at 5m. Then they decided to release completely untested extended magazine certs for the scattercannons like a week before the game came out or something close, allowing for 12/12. We've also got a bit of a precedent for them not altering purchased items too much with the rocket launchers(opting instead to create the annihilator over changing the existing lock on launchers), people start crying about refunds and that's a road that needs to be totally avoided.

[EVILPIG]

I don't want to hear arguments

Complaining about something and then closing your mind is not a good way to communicate a message.

[Bravix]

I vote VS MAX gets a weapon that kills everything between 15-25 meters in half a second. NC can have their 0-10m range. TR can get 25-35.

I mean, that's fair, isn't it NC? Your argument is that its useless past 10m, which justifies it being OP against anything within that range. We'll give the other two factions the same thing, just at different ranges.

Let the hypocrisy commence.

[typhaon]

Now the stuttering is gone, I'm absolutely certain that the NC ScatMAX with slugs was nerfed in the patch.

I'm still dangerous, but nowhere near the insta-blicking (rofl poor LA) terror that I was before.

I don't know if it's the accuracy... or the damage... maybe it seems like less damage because I'm hitting less often with both slugs - but, something has changed.

And... of course... there is always the freaky bug where I'll suddenly miss 6-10 shots in a row... despite there being no conceivable way I could actually be missing.

(though I don't think I'm actually missing... I think it's just the infantry version of the AA bug - where you'll see your flak explosins as if it was 'hitting' the ESF - but the ESF is taking no damage.)

[Fortress]

NC maxes should get a shield too. It'll only work under 10m so it'll be balanced.

[Assist]

Complaining about something and then closing your mind is not a good way to communicate a message.

It seems I communicated my message quite well actually, so apparently I did something right.

[Sturmhardt]

It seems I communicated my message quite well actually, so apparently I did something right.

Bit really and you didn't answer to my post above. Is it because you can't bring facts to a discussion?

.sent via phone.

[psijaka]

It seems I communicated my message quite well actually, so apparently I did something right.

Actually no; you have been entirely subjective; not once in this thread do you back up your claim with any hard facts, or refer to the data people have extracted from the game files.

[zauberkraft]

What do you expect ? Surviving a double tap by a MAX with double shotguns in cqc ?

Yea, wouldn't be OP if infantry could survive this .
I got scattercannons and i can't kill enemy MAX units with 1 round. Which is the weapon that instakill other MAX units? Never used anything else.

[Dkamanus]

To anyone who doesn't know, I was the guy that made those videos with my outfit. I was tad tired of people complaining about NC MAXes, since they are "OP" at close range. The video, in its depiction, shows that NC MAXes can be easily dealt at range. As a Heavy NC MAX user, I usually go with another outfit MAX (heavily certed as well) in order to mini-crash a point so we can get it.

As the video has shown, ONLY with extended magazines does the NC MAX has the advantage, since it can fire MORE shots at the 10m range. ANY NC MAX worth their salt, when confronted with another MAX unit, will simply close the range as quickly as possible, in order to deal its maximum damage at the quickest time. I don't fire at MAXes unless I'm inside the 5m range. I take the damage and run up to it (without charge if needed) then I mutilate it.

As seen in the tests, even against the VS, I almost spent my whole GRINDER (14/14 shells) to be able to kill the TR MAX at 10m. Even the Hack"OP"saw didn't kill both the TR and VS MAXes at 10m because it didn't had the extra bullets to do so, AND it was facing the Heavy Cycler/Quasar MAXes, not Mercy/Cosmos MAXes. I'd imagine the result would've been even more favourable to the TR MAX if we had dual mercy, but I was not about to dump US$ 14 in TR just to make a point (although people though that I should have done it, mostly stupid people).

Why duel standing still? THIS is how NC MAXes work. Any NC MAX pilot knows that he isn't gonna kill anything past 10m. Then why does he shot? Mostly to suppress and kill one single infantry at the expense of 28 shells. Do we complain that we can't kill stuff effectively past 10m (and by that, I mean, without spending my whole clip on both arms to kill it)?

No, we don't. I've seen this a lot of times. Even in larger rooms, like the biolabs generator room, I see people using their TR/VS MAXes the same way the NC MAX is used. I myself, when not playing MAX inside a biolab, keep my distance from a door we are camping, mostly because I won't be easily gibbed by VS/TR MAXes (though I will die much easier to them then to the NC MAX at distance anyway). VS/TR MAXes can help keep a biolab as well, but if they decide to use their MAXes as we use our, they will lose.

And before people even say stuff, sniping people with slug at 50m+ isn't worth it. It leaves you too open for attacks and will get you destroyed. And saying that slugs are worth in a 20m engagement I beg to differ. The strenght of the NC MAX is to kill while suppressing the rest of the enemy team, specially if ALL of them are coming from one single direction.

People complain that they are getting destroyed at CQC by a weapon designed to destroy in CQC. I hate automatic shotguns when I'm fighting as infantry, and still, I think they should stay the way they are. AND besides, whoever was on Beta knew what uber buffing meant for the TR (throwing Dual Cyclers at practically EVERYTHING, destroying infantry after infantry at medium range by the bunches without a significant counter for it would ALSO be destroyed at close range combat).

They'll nerf the NC MAX? Probably. But I'm not concerned, mostly because we know what happened to the shit the NC MAX was in Beta (having to unlock a SECOND scatter cannon to kill 1 infantry unit at 5m). Yes, I was at the recieveing end of the Dual Cycler MAX for too long as well, and we saw the problem it was NOT to able to EVEN get close to a cycler before it killed you. In fact, it killed where you were, so you couldn't come close anyway.

How they'll nerf it? Probably more CoF increase to make range totally useless. Maybe take 2 bullets out. I really don't care. They won't diminish the damage of the shotgun, so we'll continue to destroy at close range, which is something that I like to do. Some minor nerfs like the magrider suffered, but VS players are complaining SO much like they had turned the Magrider into a 4-wheeled baby cart. Nop, they didn't, just adapt and move on. NC has. Even with the hardest equipment to learn to use.

Eventually they stopped complaining how bad the weapons were, and so will you about the magrider.

[HiroshiChugi]

To anyone who doesn't know, I was the guy that made those videos with my outfit. I was tad tired of people complaining about NC MAXes, since they are "OP" at close range. The video, in its depiction, shows that NC MAXes can be easily dealt at range. As a Heavy NC MAX user, I usually go with another outfit MAX (heavily certed as well) in order to mini-crash a point so we can get it.

As the video has shown, ONLY with extended magazines does the NC MAX has the advantage, since it can fire MORE shots at the 10m range. ANY NC MAX worth their salt, when confronted with another MAX unit, will simply close the range as quickly as possible, in order to deal its maximum damage at the quickest time. I don't fire at MAXes unless I'm inside the 5m range. I take the damage and run up to it (without charge if needed) then I mutilate it.

As seen in the tests, even against the VS, I almost spent my whole GRINDER (14/14 shells) to be able to kill the TR MAX at 10m. Even the Hack"OP"saw didn't kill both the TR and VS MAXes at 10m because it didn't had the extra bullets to do so, AND it was facing the Heavy Cycler/Quasar MAXes, not Mercy/Cosmos MAXes. I'd imagine the result would've been even more favourable to the TR MAX if we had dual mercy, but I was not about to dump US$ 14 in TR just to make a point (although people though that I should have done it, mostly stupid people).

Why duel standing still? THIS is how NC MAXes work. Any NC MAX pilot knows that he isn't gonna kill anything past 10m. Then why does he shot? Mostly to suppress and kill one single infantry at the expense of 28 shells. Do we complain that we can't kill stuff effectively past 10m (and by that, I mean, without spending my whole clip on both arms to kill it)?

No, we don't. I've seen this a lot of times. Even in larger rooms, like the biolabs generator room, I see people using their TR/VS MAXes the same way the NC MAX is used. I myself, when not playing MAX inside a biolab, keep my distance from a door we are camping, mostly because I won't be easily gibbed by VS/TR MAXes (though I will die much easier to them then to the NC MAX at distance anyway). VS/TR MAXes can help keep a biolab as well, but if they decide to use their MAXes as we use our, they will lose.

And before people even say stuff, sniping people with slug at 50m+ isn't worth it. It leaves you too open for attacks and will get you destroyed. And saying that slugs are worth in a 20m engagement I beg to differ. The strenght of the NC MAX is to kill while suppressing the rest of the enemy team, specially if ALL of them are coming from one single direction.

People complain that they are getting destroyed at CQC by a weapon designed to destroy in CQC. I hate automatic shotguns when I'm fighting as infantry, and still, I think they should stay the way they are. AND besides, whoever was on Beta knew what uber buffing meant for the TR (throwing Dual Cyclers at practically EVERYTHING, destroying infantry after infantry at medium range by the bunches without a significant counter for it would ALSO be destroyed at close range combat).

They'll nerf the NC MAX? Probably. But I'm not concerned, mostly because we know what happened to the shit the NC MAX was in Beta (having to unlock a SECOND scatter cannon to kill 1 infantry unit at 5m). Yes, I was at the recieveing end of the Dual Cycler MAX for too long as well, and we saw the problem it was NOT to able to EVEN get close to a cycler before it killed you. In fact, it killed where you were, so you couldn't come close anyway.

How they'll nerf it? Probably more CoF increase to make range totally useless. Maybe take 2 bullets out. I really don't care. They won't diminish the damage of the shotgun, so we'll continue to destroy at close range, which is something that I like to do. Some minor nerfs like the magrider suffered, but VS players are complaining SO much like they had turned the Magrider into a 4-wheeled baby cart. Nop, they didn't, just adapt and move on. NC has. Even with the hardest equipment to learn to use.

Eventually they stopped complaining how bad the weapons were, and so will you about the magrider.

^hence the reason I play as NC, because of awesome-ass people like Dkamanus. This shows the persistence of the NC and that the REAL NC players don't complain about jack shit.

[psijaka]

Thanks for posting this dkamanus; refreshing to see such a dertailed post from someone who really knows what they are talking about.

[HiroshiChugi]

and from a fellow NC at that xD

[Varsam]

Eventually they stopped complaining how bad the weapons were, and so will you about the magrider.
That probably has more to do with NC weapons actually being quite amazing after a few certs than anything else. The only reason people complained about them was because most players are terrible and treat their weapons like hoses instead of guns, and NC are punished for this type of play more than the other two.

@OP: Asymmetrical design is great for variety, but terrible for competition. As you can see by the rabid factionalization/partisanship of the playerbase, this game can get very, very competitive. People don't like that they lose because someone else can do something that they can't.

[Dkamanus]

I vote VS MAX gets a weapon that kills everything between 15-25 meters in half a second. NC can have their 0-10m range. TR can get 25-35.

I mean, that's fair, isn't it NC? Your argument is that its useless past 10m, which justifies it being OP against anything within that range. We'll give the other two factions the same thing, just at different ranges.

Let the hypocrisy commence.

Will you be completely innefective at ALL other ranges outside of that?

Ok, then its cool by me.

[Assist]

Actually no; you have been entirely subjective; not once in this thread do you back up your claim with any hard facts, or refer to the data people have extracted from the game files.
I've been subjective? You're right, I have been. I posted things from my point of view because there are no numbers coming out from SoE about anything from this game when they make balancing changes, other than completely subjective numbers which they themselves stated. So yes, I am being subjective because that's the only thing I can be.

Bit really and you didn't answer to my post above. Is it because you can't bring facts to a discussion?

.sent via phone.
You can read above, or perhaps my other post in here which I linked to as well. I guess you don't want to read it, which is fine, but stop responding if you're not going to read it. I bring the facts that I know from the game because it's all I have. Like I said, I can make a video of the VS MAX against an NC MAX and show it to you destroying the VS MAX, what does it prove? It proves I set a situation that favored my point of view to get the results I wanted. If you don't believe the NC MAX is too strong I suggest you spend a little more time in the game, but that WASN'T THE POINT OF THIS ENTIRE THREAD. Please read what I wrote rather than going on and on about stupid shit like nerfs that I explained I DON'T WANT THEM TO HAPPEN.

Nop, they didn't, just adapt and move on. NC has. Even with the hardest equipment to learn to use.

Eventually they stopped complaining how bad the weapons were, and so will you about the magrider.

NC has stopped complaining? Really Dkanamus, since when? I play against you, I've seen you numerous times in fights, and I'm fairly sure at every fight there's bitching from both sides about everything and anything. Go to the planetside2 official forums and tell me again that NC has stopped complaining about weapon balance, you can find a post on the first page whining about VS/TR being OP because of X and Y. I played maybe 2 hours yesterday and all I heard from the 3-way fight I was at is that VS/NC whining about the Cycler and how it needs to be nerfed. That's all people do in this game, cry about nerfs. I'd also like to thank you for pointing out that the Magrider is clearly sub-par right now, it's nice to know that NC has noticed this*cough*. Also, as much as everyone loves to whine about the NC weapons I personally prefer them over the the other weapons, why? Because they're better when certed out. I'm almost 100% sure that when the account-wide unlocks go in myself and Nado will be playing NC because they're just better in our opinions, especially now that the Magrider is not worth being VS. We've been playing them lately on Connery, since Waterson is too static of a fight(Tho I do miss you Swiffle <3).

I want to know why you guys are continuing to bring up a MAX vs MAX discussion when it's completely irrelevant. If you want to compare like that then please compare the Magrider vs the Prowler pre-patch, if I was in a Prowler I could beat my Magrider every single fight pre-patch. Now I definitely could, but that's besides the point. Comparing like things in this game is clearly not how they intend to balance, which is evident from the latest changes. In that case, which I've attempted to shine light on here, you take the NC MAX effective K/D compared to a VS/TR MAX effective K/D and it's not even close. Why? Because the NC MAX is much better in situations where MAX units are used most often(Bio Labs).

Once again, hopefully you'll read this rather than just ignoring it, I've stated that I do NOT want the NC MAX to be nerfed. However, I also feel the TRAC-5, CARV, Magrider, etc also did not need to be nerfed. 'Dumbing' the game down so everyone has the same effective k/d is not balance, it's mediocrity and I am trying to get the point across to you guys about that. Someone screams NERF, posts some random stat that supports it, and the community jumps on it. This is how the balance has gone so far, even in beta, and it's not how it should be done IMO as it only makes the game boring.

[Hamma]

Let's keep these threads constructive and try to keep personal attacks and bickering out of them.

This goes for everyone in the thread.

[Dkamanus]

NC has stopped complaining? Really Dkanamus, since when? I play against you, I've seen you numerous times in fights, and I'm fairly sure at every fight there's bitching from both sides about everything and anything. Go to the planetside2 official forums and tell me again that NC has stopped complaining about weapon balance, you can find a post on the first page whining about VS/TR being OP because of X and Y. I played maybe 2 hours yesterday and all I heard from the 3-way fight I was at is that VS/NC whining about the Cycler and how it needs to be nerfed. That's all people do in this game, cry about nerfs. I'd also like to thank you for pointing out that the Magrider is clearly sub-par right now, it's nice to know that NC has noticed this*cough*. Also, as much as everyone loves to whine about the NC weapons I personally prefer them over the the other weapons, why? Because they're better when certed out. I'm almost 100% sure that when the account-wide unlocks go in myself and Nado will be playing NC because they're just better in our opinions, especially now that the Magrider is not worth being VS. We've been playing them lately on Connery, since Waterson is too static of a fight(Tho I do miss you Swiffle <3).

I want to know why you guys are continuing to bring up a MAX vs MAX discussion when it's completely irrelevant. If you want to compare like that then please compare the Magrider vs the Prowler pre-patch, if I was in a Prowler I could beat my Magrider every single fight pre-patch. Now I definitely could, but that's besides the point. Comparing like things in this game is clearly not how they intend to balance, which is evident from the latest changes. In that case, which I've attempted to shine light on here, you take the NC MAX effective K/D compared to a VS/TR MAX effective K/D and it's not even close. Why? Because the NC MAX is much better in situations where MAX units are used most often(Bio Labs).

Once again, hopefully you'll read this rather than just ignoring it, I've stated that I do NOT want the NC MAX to be nerfed. However, I also feel the TRAC-5, CARV, Magrider, etc also did not need to be nerfed. 'Dumbing' the game down so everyone has the same effective k/d is not balance, it's mediocrity and I am trying to get the point across to you guys about that. Someone screams NERF, posts some random stat that supports it, and the community jumps on it. This is how the balance has gone so far, even in beta, and it's not how it should be done IMO as it only makes the game boring.

I complain myself, as a stress relief, about weapons. That doesn't mean I go forumside to have them nerfed. But there's a huge difference between what the magrider could do, compared to the Vanguard/prowler. Even myself went the prowler sometimes and it was absolutely normal to shoot with it. I'm not talking about the strafing speed (which any decent vanguard pilot can easily compensate, more so now, with out buffs and your bug which will be fixed). Mountain climbing. If the nerf affected this huge disparity between the Magrider and the Vanguard/Prowler, then its all good.

I don't even think turret stabilization should be implemented for the Vanguard/prowler, just to give some uniqueness for the VS, which have the weakest shots anyway (and most of the time run HEAT-equivalents), but that crazy mountain climbing had to go away. If this was achieved, then its cool.

The only problem I had with the magrider where those crazy angles no other tank could get. Damage wise? It's cool. Manuverability? It's cool. The Sauron? Its cool as well (and even with the nerf it doesn't seem to be a big of a deal). Just the mountain climbing.

Those prowler changes weren't needed (the extra damage). It fucked more teh VS then the NC. Hate how easily a prowler can farm infantry compared to the Vanguard and Magrider. You know why I did those videos? I really was hoping to see the NC MAX destroy everyone at 1~30m range. I really did. I wanted to know what was wrong the VS/TR MAX so I could at least have a basis to suggest some changes.

What I saw and found out is that most people play those MAXes quite wrong, and this only makes me killing them MUCH more easy. I was surprised that the TR/VS MAX could deal with infantry MUCH more effectively at range than the NC MAX, and I was OK with that. I don't want extra range (give me my 300 certs I spent on slugs, they are a bad idea anyway), I want destructive power and I like being a walking tank that recieve damage while dishing out a lot of damage. It's at close range, and it is fine. The NC MAX is working perfectly. People want laser sights? Give em. It would benefit the VS and TR a lot, but I guess infantry would PISSED to get killed at 30M+ thanks to a MAX. I wouldn't.

[Shamrock]

The VS anti-infantry MAX is prettymuch useless beyond 20m too but it doesn't fucking instant kill people with one double-trigger pull (and neither does the TR MAX.) That's what I think everyone hates. It's not that it's really effective at close range, it's that it's so good you can't even react, you can't retreat. You are just dead in about .2 seconds.

The worst is a biolab seige. Kicking out 50-75 dug in defenders is already impossible, but when a pair of NC Maxes with double shotgun instant death is waiting for you at every doorway and around every corner it's downright demoralizing.

Pretty much this; NC players can post as many vids as they like with TR and VS MAX's head-shotting unmoving NC targets. But in base encounters:-

(A) The scat is sitting in a doorway from the objective that it can duck into cover for a reload and then pop-tart out to finish you off (if the 1st volley didn't instantly down you).

(B) When sitting on the objective its likely (and ive seen this plenty of times) that the scat has up to 3+ engineers repping him.

(C) And even if the VS/TR opponent also has engineer support the NC burst will just chew through them so fast it becomes an irrelevance.

(D) AI MAX's are primarily used indoors as shock troops to capture points in CQC ( MAX crash's being a perfect example) or defend them in CQC, so lethality at point blank to 10M is perfect for this role.

(E) PS2 AV MAX's fire rate is just awful, meaning their additional role of AI MAX hard counter just isn't available in PS2 currently.

(F) The old PS1 method of downing MAX's indoors, pop-tarting on a door frame and dumb firing a decimator isn't viable, as in most instances a smart NC player is waiting with a hair trigger for the HA to pop his head out, you wont get away with having your shields wiped out with a bit of health, instead you'll be dead in a split second.

NC you can keep your ludicrously OP hacksaw MAX's if TR and VS get a major buff to duel comets/pounders/falcons that allows us to down your AI MAX just as fast at under 10m.

I agree with Assist that essentially any argument for a nerf that removes a defining feature of an Empire should be resisted, but there should always be viable counters available, if there aren't then that feature is OP/broken.

[Dkamanus]

Pretty much this; NC players can post as many vids as they like with TR and VS MAX's head-shotting unmoving NC targets. But in base encounters:-

(A) The scat is sitting in a doorway from the objective that it can duck into cover for a reload and then pop-tart out to finish you off (if the 1st volley didn't instantly down you).

(B) When sitting on the objective its likely (and ive seen this plenty of times) that the scat has up to 3+ engineers repping him.

(C) And even if the VS/TR opponent also has engineer support the NC burst will just chew through them so fast it becomes an irrelevance.

(D) AI MAX's are primarily used indoors as shock troops to capture points in CQC ( MAX crash's being a perfect example) or defend them in CQC, so lethality at point blank to 10M is perfect for this role.

(E) PS2 AV MAX's fire rate is just awful, meaning their additional role of AI MAX hard counter just isn't available in PS2 currently.

NC you can keep your ludicrously OP hacksaw MAX's if TR and VS get a major buff to duel comets/pounders that allows us to down your AI MAX just as fast at under 10m.

So long they are completely useless at 10m+, why not? I think people are underestimating their strenghts. People would scream nerf VS/TR WAY much sooner the NC, mostly because we don't have any sustained damage at all. It's all alpha. You want that, give the damage over time you guys can deal and its all good.

[Bunk]

You guys are heartless, you want to take away the one thing that NC shines in.

Shame on you :D

[ShadetheDruid]

This whole topic is like someone took the official forums and distilled it into a single concentrated thread.

[Dkamanus]

You guys are heartless, you want to take away the one thing that NC shines in.

Shame on you :D

Just thinking on the fact that, if they want the same damage as us, they better be prepared for a lame CoF, ridiculously small clips, HUGE reload times (which could be bigger for the NC MAX) and no usability outside 10m range. People must think they will retain their 852 damage bullets + their huge 50~60 clips + their tighter CoF compared to the NC.

[zauberkraft]

VS is crying so much its awesome. :)

ps2 community pretty weird. In WoW you are just flaming the skill of ur opponents, but there are actually no "DAMN OP NERF THIS" threads.

[VR Draco]

ps2 community pretty weird. In WoW you are just flaming the skill of ur opponents, but there are actually no "DAMN OP NERF THIS" threads.

Woooot? Have you been blind?

There were as much "NERF NOW"-threads in WoW and other MMOs like we have now in PS2, this is just normal.

[Conq]

NC you can keep your ludicrously OP hacksaw MAX's if TR and VS get a major buff to duel comets/pounders/falcons that allows us to down your AI MAX just as fast at under 10m.

All AI MAX weapons should do reduced damage against MAX units. A dual Hacksaw, infantry murdering machine should get obliterated by the first dual Pounder that waddles in the door.

This would balance everything out.

[mrmrmrj]

Only if the Falcon can 3 shot a MAX. And if you freak out about "3 shot" then you are forgetting the reload time.

[psijaka]

What needs to be done is introduce TR and VS variants of the Scattercannon, retaining their empire specific characteristics.

TR faster rate of fire, lower damage per pellet, bigger mag. Similar DPS to Scattercannon.

VS slightly lower damage, same rate of fire, slightly lower DPS but somewhat tighter pellet spread. Bigger mag and faster reload.

And the NC get something similar to the TR HMG with higher damage, lower fire rate, smaller mag (I would just love to run with this).

[Ruffdog]

Dkamanus what armor were those maxes using (kinetic/flak? Level?) And was it recent? Cheers

Also as a question to anyone: how many decimators does it take to drop a max? Let's say with and without flak armor. I put two into a nc max this morning and he was still standing

[Sturmhardt]

Dkamanus what armor were those maxes using (kinetic/flak? Level?) And was it recent? Cheers

Also as a question to anyone: how many decimators does it take to drop a max? Let's say with and without flak armor. I put two into a nc max this morning and he was still standing

Then he had some kind of armor buff, maybe regeneration (how much time was in between the shots?) or flak armor, more likely flak armor. Flak armor is also the standard upgrade for most MAXes, so I would guess on that.

[Ruffdog]

Then he had some kind of armor buff, maybe regeneration (how much time was in between the shots?) or flak armor, more likely flak armor. Flak armor is also the standard upgrade for most MAXes, so I would guess on that.

It was 6 or 7 seconds. Thought flak was the answer. A vanilla that can take 2 plus change would be on par with ps1 lol

[Sturmhardt]

It was 6 or 7 seconds. Thought flak was the answer. A vanilla that can take 2 plus change would be on par with ps1 lol

Yeah, than it was flak armor. I think 2 decimators kill a vanilla MAX but I'm not too sure because I use the flak armor for a very long time now.... but still, decimators hurt a lot :)

[rhilir]

the only problem with the nc max is a headshot with the scat max is a instant kill. Remove that and it be just like the other 2 then. That fair.

[Revanmug]

Considering that in Beta, Scatter were in a nerf state for over a month and NC MAX went completly extinct, I wouldn't be surprise if they were unsure what to do with it. The only buff to scatter was tighter spread and 2 additional shells.

They can't balance shotgun. Even less when only a single faction has them and doesn't have anything else. Gauss MG was the answer but they ignored it back then.

[Dkamanus]

Dkamanus what armor were those maxes using (kinetic/flak? Level?) And was it recent? Cheers

Also as a question to anyone: how many decimators does it take to drop a max? Let's say with and without flak armor. I put two into a nc max this morning and he was still standing

The video is from January and is fairly accurate from game systems, since nothing related to MAXes has been changed. The first tests were of naked MAXes, with no upgrades besides their standard weapons (Hacksaw and Quasar/Heavy Cycler). The second test was a naked Dual Cycler/Quasar MAX against a dual grinder with extended mags on both and Flak armour 5.

[splooshIRL]

Now the stuttering is gone, I'm absolutely certain that the NC ScatMAX with slugs was nerfed in the patch.

I'm still dangerous, but nowhere near the insta-blicking (rofl poor LA) terror that I was before.

I don't know if it's the accuracy... or the damage... maybe it seems like less damage because I'm hitting less often with both slugs - but, something has changed.

And... of course... there is always the freaky bug where I'll suddenly miss 6-10 shots in a row... despite there being no conceivable way I could actually be missing.

(though I don't think I'm actually missing... I think it's just the infantry version of the AA bug - where you'll see your flak explosins as if it was 'hitting' the ESF - but the ESF is taking no damage.)

agreed, this is my post today on reddit:

I play the NC max a lot and tend to have good accuracy. (83% hit on hacksaws). I'm asking people to give me their experiences with a problem I've noticed in PS2.

Situation #1; guy not moving, normally takes 2-4 hits to kill. Unload 12 shots to kill.

Situation #2; guy is really close to me (max) and I unload 24 shots into them and they survive (sometimes full health).

Situation #3; I'll fire 4 shots and not kill enemy A (perfectly aimed close range "hits"), switch quickly to enemy B (at similar range) and kill them in 4 shots.

If an enemy is moving I disregard these situations because I assume miss or bad hit boxes.... but when enemies are basically not moving (or back peddling slowly) and I'm not getting close range kills it's confusing.... (I do see hit markers and visual shield glow implying impact).

I wonder if it's a max only issue due to a close range dead zone.... but if it's lag then it's happening with all classes. Unfortunately, lag is less obvious an explaination with non-max classes because of the nature of NC recoil =P

Just wondering if I'm the only one noticing this issue... been on my mind about 3 weeks.

thanks

P.S. I only see this problem roughly 1 out of 100ish kills in a max suit and in all the other 99 cases I notice perfect connectivity.

[Graywolves]

Most people would concider something that kills you in one shot without warning OP. Whoever enters a room and finds one is dead, no time to react.

Is there special tactics you can do to take it down? Yeah. Most of my MAX kills are from using C4 on my medic (although recently the game seems to not let me push the button as quickly as I need to).


I think there's some room for balancing. But while the NC MAXs are annoying, at the end of the day there's ways to deal with them and no one seems to capitalize on them very well. At least on Connery.


Instead of a pure nerf just lower the damage and increase effective range slightly.

edit

I play the NC max a lot and tend to have good accuracy. (83% hit on hacksaws). I'm asking people to give me their experiences with a problem I've noticed in PS2.

Situation #1; guy not moving, normally takes 2-4 hits to kill. Unload 12 shots to kill.

Situation #2; guy is really close to me (max) and I unload 24 shots into them and they survive (sometimes full health).

Situation #3; I'll fire 4 shots and not kill enemy A (perfectly aimed close range "hits"), switch quickly to enemy B (at similar range) and kill them in 4 shots.

If an enemy is moving I disregard these situations because I assume miss or bad hit boxes.... but when enemies are basically not moving (or back peddling slowly) and I'm not getting close range kills it's confusing.... (I do see hit markers and visual shield glow implying impact).

I wonder if it's a max only issue due to a close range dead zone.... but if it's lag then it's happening with all classes. Unfortunately, lag is less obvious an explaination with non-max classes because of the nature of NC recoil =P

Just wondering if I'm the only one noticing this issue... been on my mind about 3 weeks.

thanks

P.S. I only see this problem roughly 1 out of 100ish kills in a max suit and in all the other 99 cases I notice perfect connectivity.

I think it's server side. There's a few situations like that I've encountered in big battles. I unload on a guy and he seems to barely shoot at me then in the death screen I see their shields didn't even go down.

[psijaka]

agreed, this is my post today on reddit:

I play the NC max a lot and tend to have good accuracy. (83% hit on hacksaws). I'm asking people to give me their experiences with a problem I've noticed in PS2.

Situation #1; guy not moving, normally takes 2-4 hits to kill. Unload 12 shots to kill.

Situation #2; guy is really close to me (max) and I unload 24 shots into them and they survive (sometimes full health).

Situation #3; I'll fire 4 shots and not kill enemy A (perfectly aimed close range "hits"), switch quickly to enemy B (at similar range) and kill them in 4 shots.

If an enemy is moving I disregard these situations because I assume miss or bad hit boxes.... but when enemies are basically not moving (or back peddling slowly) and I'm not getting close range kills it's confusing.... (I do see hit markers and visual shield glow implying impact).

I wonder if it's a max only issue due to a close range dead zone.... but if it's lag then it's happening with all classes. Unfortunately, lag is less obvious an explaination with non-max classes because of the nature of NC recoil =P

Just wondering if I'm the only one noticing this issue... been on my mind about 3 weeks.

thanks

P.S. I only see this problem roughly 1 out of 100ish kills in a max suit and in all the other 99 cases I notice perfect connectivity.

I think that this is something to do with the wide spacing of the MAX's guns; creating a "blind spot" directly in front of the MAX. I've certainly noticed this with dual Falcons; it is possible to shoot at someone close up, apparently spot on target, and miss them altogether. And it certainly is common to only have one shot land on target (this is very easy to spot as 2 hits from a salvo get the kill).

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee391/psijaka/MAXaim_zpsc48a68b5.png

[BIGGByran]

Ok, I got tired of reading this thread after page 3. Here is the MAIN POINT EVERYONE should be looking at. The Magriders got Nerfed because of it's Tank Vs Tank K/D ratio. The nerf is suppose to put it in balance with other tanks.

If you want to nerf the NC Max. Compare it's K/D with other Max and not Infantry. It is like compairing Magriders/Vangaurd/Prowler' survivability with a Liberator with a 150 Dalton.

Maybe we should nerf the Magrider/Vangaurd/Prowlers because my HA can't kill it and my K/D ratio is 0.000000000001 on a 1v1 fight. (And I got the 0.000000000001 because the guy in the tank went to go take a sh!t)

I fought a 1v1 fight with TR Max and it was alway a close fight. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. (Btw I have Scatter and Grinder(Extended Mag)

[ShadetheDruid]

If you want to nerf the NC Max. Compare it's K/D with other Max and not Infantry. It is like compairing Magriders/Vangaurd/Prowler' survivability with a Liberator with a 150 Dalton.

It's been said somewhere before (I think by Higby?), MAX vs MAX K/D would be pointless because most MAXes are killed by infantry, not other MAXes.

[Maniya]

Max vs Max is quite rare and (situational*EDITED) so KD compare on that would be pointless nor enough data to compare, im afraid. Unless they are fool enough to engage battle against other maxes then well... if thats the case, is that information worth to look at?

[BIGGByran]

is there a Max Vs Inf K/D Ratio?

[ShadetheDruid]

is there a Max Vs Inf K/D Ratio?

SOE has a bunch of data on random stuff, so they probably do have it somewhere. I don't think it's ever been posted up until now though.

[thegreekboy]

Hacksaw:
7 shot clip which can be emptied in 1.4 seconds for 6006 damage (not counting headshots).
6006/1.4=4,290 damage per second when firing.
add in the 4 second reload time and it has a 1112 damage per second for sustained fire.

Mercy:
50 shot clip which can be emptied in 7.1 seconds for 7150 damage (not counting headshots).
7150/7.1=1,007 damage per second when firing.
add in the 3 second reload time and it has a 708 damage per second for sustained fire.

Cosmos:
75 shot clip which can be emptied in 13.35 seconds for 12,525 damage (not counting headshots).
12,525/13.35=938 damage per second when firing
add in the 3.3 second reload time and it has a 752 damage per second for sustained fire.

Lets take a look at 1 hacksaw max vs 2 mercy maxes at once.
The 2 mercy maxes fire on the hacksaw max for (2) 1007 dps x 1.4 seconds = 2820 damage
The hacksaw max fires on one mercy max for 4290 dps x 1.4 seconds = 6006 damage killing it

the hacksaw reloads for 4 seconds taking 1007 dps x 4 seconds = 4028 damage killing it
OR 1410
the hacksaw took cover while reloading and was shot less than .9 seconds of the 4 seconds he was reloading then he can kill the second mercy max as well and live.

If the mercy maxes didn't double team the hacksaw, but instead went in staggered for 1v1 scenarios, it would take a 4th mercy max in a row to kill the hacksaw. The hacksaw would destroy the first 3 mercy maxes.

The DPS also plays a role when there are engineers repairing the MAX. This makes a higher DPS much much more effective because the engineer repairs remove a flat amount of dps.
By default a hacksaw max will kill a mercy max in 1.2 seconds. A mercy max will kill a hacksaw max in 5.1 seconds.
Lets say engineers repair 500 health per second, this means that the Mercy will only do 500 DPS to the hacksaw while the hacksaw will do 3,729 DPS to the mercy.
This also means that the mercy max will still die in 1.4 seconds to the hacksaw max. However, it will now take the mercy max 10 seconds to kill the hacksaw max.

How can this be fixed?
The NC Maxes sustained DPS is still the highest, but it isn't OP.
The problem is only that the rate of fire on the NC Maxes is too quick. It needs to be increased by 1/4 of a second per shot. The amount that this increases the time to empty a clip then needs to be subtracted from the reload speed to keep the sustained dps the same.

It should take the hacksaw 3.15 seconds to empty its clip, bringing its dps down to 1906 (which is still almost double TR and VS). It then needs its reload speed lowered to 2.25seconds to keep its sustained DPS the same as it is currently.
This still keeps NC Maxes the best maxes, however they are only 2x as good now rather than 4x as good...

This would make the changed Hacksaw:
7 shot clip which can be emptied in 3.15 seconds for 6006 damage (not counting headshots).
6006/3.15=1,906 damage per second when firing.
add in the 2.25 second reload time and it has a 1112 damage per second for sustained fire.

TLDR:
Hacksaw does 4300 DPS / 1000 DPS sustained
Mercy does 1000 DPS / 700 DPS sustained
Cosmos does 900 DPS / 750 DPS sustained

The Hacksaw should be nerfed to deal 2k DPS but not change its sustained 1k DPS.
SOE can do this by increasing the refire time on each NC shotgun by 250ms(1/4 of a second) and lowering it's reload speed to 2.25 seconds.

[maradine]

I haven't done the math recently, but I think the Nebula is the lobster claw you want to use for this comparison. Also, isn't the fastest MAX TTK via an A/V weapon? Or have they lost their massive A/I soak?

[Bravix]

I haven't done the math recently, but I think the Nebula is the lobster claw you want to use for this comparison. Also, isn't the fastest MAX TTK via an A/V weapon? Or have they lost their massive A/I soak?

No, you want to use the Burster. Why use the VS shitty AI when you can use a burster and do almost as good, while clearing the skies at the same time!

[BIGGByran]

@thegreekboy
The numbers you produce are assuming all shots hit and are only under ideal situation. Need to do a field test like the video posted before us.

[Maniya]

Hacksaw:
skip

You can't just balance things out by just DPS numbers, without any other things such as positioning, distance and whatever that is. Which i don't agree on anything you just said on your post. NC Max can kill 4 mercy Maxes? Hah? If you facing afk 4 Mercy Maxes yes. you can.

[Chewy]

@thegreekboy
The numbers you produce are assuming all shots hit and are only under ideal situation. Need to do a field test like the video posted before us.

Agreed. Weapon spread alone ruins all DPS numbers with every meter between targets.

I know for a fact that Im not to take another MAX head on without a repairman in my ass. Iv even gotten the drop on a few MAXes and couldn't get the kill before reloading. That's the main problem NC MAXes have. We're forced to reload after every kill and if that first set of rounds fail to kill then we're fucked and take heavy damage.

[BIGGByran]

Agreed. Weapon spread alone ruins all DPS numbers with every meter between targets.

I know for a fact that Im not to take another MAX head on without a repairman in my ass. Iv even gotten the drop on a few MAXes and couldn't get the kill before reloading. That's the main problem NC MAXes have. We're forced to reload after every kill and if that first set of rounds fail to kill then we're fucked and take heavy damage.

Yes! That's why I don't run Hacksaws, you sometimes just end up unloading a whole clip (even extended clips) onto 1 person and your sh!t. I run Scattercannot (not extended) and Grinder (extended clip) so that when 1 is reloading, I still have enough ammo on the other. So it's like they are taking turns reloading and "should" never be completely out of ammo on both guns at the same time.

I ran into a few NC Maxs on my alts and they weren't a problem at all when I kepted my distance but if I ever ran into one (under 10m) I would be dead, but that goes for any Max (with AI). All maxs are deadly at close range, but NC doesn't have the deadliness at range like other maxs. I am not sure about VS max but I think they need a buff in dmg or just an increase in accuracy.

[Chewy]

I run dual Mattocks and can't go past 15m. Still working on getting the extended mags and might just play with slugs for one to test it out. Though if they work like the slugs on my mauler then I wouldn't advise on them with MAXes being unable to ADS. Hip fire with slugs SUCKS, but the ADS is near 100% perfect. Only problems are the travel time (can understand seeing how the slug is the size of my thumb), the INSANE drop, and it taking 3 body shots for a kill (again, it's a mass of lead as big as a thumb! Should be a 2 shot in my opinion).

I can understand the hate for shotguns. I hate them too in games, but for other reasons. Others think that no weapon should be great at CQC as that's where most of fights happen, but it's a shotgun. A shock weapon that's made to put someone on their ass at the greatest risk to the user. The reason I hate shotguns in games is that they are either pure CQC or crap. Putting slugs in it should be like a mid range sniper.

I think of snipers as sucker punches. Very hard to see coming and often remove the first hit from a fight but become hard to pull off once known. ARs (and to a point SMGs) are fair fights, you can tell that they are there and have a chance. Shotguns are ball shots, very hard to pull off unknown and easy to block (keep distance or not enter an uncleared room without backup or prepping it with a grenade if it's high risk like a cap point) but damn do they hurt if he gets you.



You know what, I'll commit a shotgun sin for those that are having problems. An easy way to tell it someone is in a room is to listen for foot steps. If you hear ANY from within the room and don't see friendly tags then it's shields up (HA) and grenade spam. Can't tell you how many times just hearing the foot steps of an enemy told where he was, what door he was coming to/covering, and when/where to enter myself. Each factions MAX even have their own walking/moving sounds like the ESFs. Learn them and you'll never get a "Oh Hi!" moment unless the enemy is knows to not bounce around like mad.

[Dkamanus]

As people said, HAcksaw are "OP" because ALL pellets have a tendency to hit at 5M. @10, you end up losing two pellets to spread. That alone is a 1/3 damage down. And remember, we are doing so against a huge target that is a MAX. You'll lose more against infantry. @ 15m, against infantry, it'll be EVEN bigger the discrepency.

When I did the tests, I knew the problem the NC MAX had at beta which was not having enough bullets. With enough bullets, the NC MAX could actually kill people, but not easily. The spread as it is now is fine, on being @5m will make all the pellets hit, making you miss more and more pellets the farther away you are, diminishing a LOT your damage. Even slugs won't help since a target won't stand still all the time like the tests.

[Electrofreak]

OP ignorant tears are pretty funny. Are we sure we're not being trolled?

Everyone else has explained the strengths and weaknesses of the scatmax. They are rather easily put down outside of 10 to 15 meters. Inside of that range, if you can't get behind them, you're going to have a hard time staying alive.

cycler max and pulsar max are only slightly less deadly at close range, and much more versatile.

[thegreekboy]

OP ignorant tears are pretty funny. Are we sure we're not being trolled?

Everyone else has explained the strengths and weaknesses of the scatmax. They are rather easily put down outside of 10 to 15 meters. Inside of that range, if you can't get behind them, you're going to have a hard time staying alive.

cycler max and pulsar max are only slightly less deadly at close range, and much more versatile.

Question- have you ever played a different faction and tried to capture a tower/biolab versus the 666 Hacksaw Max brigade? Well let me tell you a little story. Indar bay point. TRG is playing on off hours and we have about 2 squads. We drop on indar bay point. 5 minutes later, 3 dual hacksaw maxes show up and kill 24 guys. Only 1 scatmax went down.

Scenario 2: We're at a biolab. We get around 30 mercy Max'es at a teleporter trying to break the biolab stalemate. We get in, run smack dab into the 666 Hacksaw brigade. I was lead, I ran into a single Hacksaw MAX. I kid you not, instant death.

The DPS numbers do tell tales, as much as you guys would like to deny it. As an infantryman, I've been sniped off buildings by scatmaxes at least 30 meters away.

You also need to understand our default MAX weapon misses about every other hit if not shot at less that 15 meters. The reason why we all roll Mercy's is that it can actually shoot semi-accurately at over 20 meters.

[james]

The nc max is fine as it total shat if its not in your face. Yes they are op at close, but thats the nc strength. Plus they are shotguns if your annoyed a shotgun killed you in a cqc situation you need to learn what a shotgun is meant for.

Yes we can go on rampages in cqc, but if you die from a nc max outside of a building that your problem

[klossboss]

The nc max is fine as it total shat if its not in your face. Yes they are op at close, but thats the nc strength. Plus they are shotguns if your annoyed a shotgun killed you in a cqc situation you need to learn what a shotgun is meant for.

Yes we can go on rampages in cqc, but if you die from a nc max outside of a building that your problem

And MAXes are made for what?
- Dual Burster (Anti Air)
- Dual Mercy/Hacksaw (Anti Inf)
- Dual Pounder (Anti Veh)

Where do most infantry engagements occur? At and towards capture points. How much room are in these rooms that have capture points? At MOST 20m. And that's being generous. On capture points that have towers, the Alpha capture point room itself is no more than 10m across doorway to doorway. And at that point is where the goal/all infantry run towards.

That is where the issue at hand is coming from. That 1 out of the 3 factions has a far superior advantage where it matters most.

Also, that video that was posted, was uploaded to Youtube way back on September 3rd 2012... Seems very relevant and up to date to me...

[Varsam]

And MAXes are made for what?
- Dual Burster (Anti Air)
- Dual Mercy/Hacksaw (Anti Inf)
- Dual Pounder (Anti Veh)

Where do most infantry engagements occur? At and towards capture points. How much room are in these rooms that have capture points? At MOST 20m. And that's being generous. On capture points that have towers, the Alpha capture point room itself is no more than 10m across doorway to doorway. And at that point is where the goal/all infantry run towards.

That is where the issue at hand is coming from. That 1 out of the 3 factions has a far superior advantage where it matters most.

Also, that video that was posted, was uploaded to Youtube way back on September 3rd 2012... Seems very relevant and up to date to me...

This.

I'm really tired of people using the "scatmaxes suck at range" argument to justify the dominance of scatmaxes. If the game were a simple death match with wildly varying terrain types you'd see infantry in, that might be a valid argument. But this game revolves around base captures, which is where the bulk of infantry combat happens. All Points of interest in base capture (generators, scu, towers, buildings) force cqc, and this is where you see maxes. It is very, very easy in this case as a max to control the engagement so that you only engage at your optimal range. You would actually have to try harder in order to NOT engage at close range. In all of these scenarios, the brutal effectiveness and advantage scatmaxes have over their other empire counterparts is clear. NC maxes have capabilities that the other empires simply do not have. This is the same reasoning behind the magrider nerf (poorly implemented as it was), and so should be sound reasoning behind a scatmax nerf.

[Chewy]

And MAXes are made for what?
- Dual Burster (Anti Air)
- Dual Mercy/Hacksaw (Anti Inf)
- Dual Pounder (Anti Veh)

Where do most infantry engagements occur? At and towards capture points. How much room are in these rooms that have capture points? At MOST 20m. And that's being generous. On capture points that have towers, the Alpha capture point room itself is no more than 10m across doorway to doorway. And at that point is where the goal/all infantry run towards.

That is where the issue at hand is coming from. That 1 out of the 3 factions has a far superior advantage where it matters most.

Also, that video that was posted, was uploaded to Youtube way back on September 3rd 2012... Seems very relevant and up to date to me...

Ok then lets make a new video for an up to date test.

It would take just 3 people on the same server with each being one of the factions (6 needed to remove MAX timers to speed things up with revives and heals). Once everyone is talking to each other (TS, mumble, skype) they all go to a far off outpost and each faction rep spawns an AMS sundy (taking turns hacking the terminals) for ammo, spawning, and class changes. Once that's all done you can either do the tests in that outpost or no-mans land (to lower chances of a pub player popping up) in about 30 minutes to an hour. You don't even need dual AI weapons, a BR0 (zero, not bro) can be used for the test as you can use a trial for a dual of the stock weapons.

Im willing to take the time to do this and can even record the entire thing as I have FRAPS and an empty 1TB HDD to store a few hours of (good quality) video. Anyone else willing to help? Shoot me a PM and we'll see what can be done over the weekend.

[Sledgecrushr]

Ok I was at eisa tech plant guarding the southern vehicle entrance with a scat max when our defense was run over. The first two tr through the entrance ate dual hacksaws. Now we were fighting a coordinated group so I was immediately supressed by cannon fire. Two tr took a position on the far side of the vehicle bay and gunned me down with zero fight from me. These guys knew the limitations of my max and took advantage of that with impunity. I really hope the devs fix the nc max from a point blank killing machine to a more dynamic all around killing machine.

[klossboss]

Ok I was at eisa tech plant guarding the southern vehicle entrance with a scat max when our defense was run over. The first two tr through the entrance ate dual hacksaws. Now we were fighting a coordinated group so I was immediately supressed by cannon fire. Two tr took a position on the far side of the vehicle bay and gunned me down with zero fight from me. These guys knew the limitations of my max and took advantage of that with impunity. I really hope the devs fix the nc max from a point blank killing machine to a more dynamic all around killing machine.

Sounds like you just need to be a better player. You could of used your MAX rush/sprint away from them or behind cover. Also, your story is pretty vague. And also, why is a scatmax guarding a vehicle entrance? And why not the double doors (if the vertical/horizontal generators were up).

To me, NC realize I am right, which I am lol. Majority of infantry battles occur at chock points and capture points. Not wide open spaces. And if they do, there is always the option of hitting your sprint and running away or behind cover. But, people will always come in here coming up with their 1 or 2 time stories of how they died in a MAX to justify them not being OP in the current game setup. But the "majority" of the time, NC scat/haxsaw MAXes are far superior to what the VS/TR have. And that is why we're having this discussion.

[thegreekboy]

Ok I was at eisa tech plant guarding the southern vehicle entrance with a scat max when our defense was run over. The first two tr through the entrance ate dual hacksaws. Now we were fighting a coordinated group so I was immediately supressed by cannon fire. Two tr took a position on the far side of the vehicle bay and gunned me down with zero fight from me. These guys knew the limitations of my max and took advantage of that with impunity. I really hope the devs fix the nc max from a point blank killing machine to a more dynamic all around killing machine.

That's a very isolated scenario. For the most part heavy infantry fighting occurs in close quarters, which is why your MAXes dominate so much. Very few heavy fights take place in an open area.

[Sledgecrushr]

Sounds like you just need to be a better player. You could of used your MAX rush/sprint away from them or behind cover. Also, your story is pretty vague. And also, why is a scatmax guarding a vehicle entrance? And why not the double doors (if the vertical/horizontal generators were up).

To me, NC realize I am right, which I am lol. Majority of infantry battles occur at chock points and capture points. Not wide open spaces. And if they do, there is always the option of hitting your sprint and running away or behind cover. But, people will always come in here coming up with their 1 or 2 time stories of how they died in a MAX to justify them not being OP in the current game setup. But the "majority" of the time, NC scat/haxsaw MAXes are far superior to what the VS/TR have. And that is why we're having this discussion.

I figured since we were having a speculative anecdotal argument then I would just throw out my last experience with hacksaw max. The only REAL evidence we have seen shows that hacksaw maxes are pretty worthless against other maxes outside of five meters.

[General Price]

skillsaws hurt

[Chewy]

Sounds like you just need to be a better player. You could of used your MAX rush/sprint away from them or behind cover. Also, your story is pretty vague. And also, why is a scatmax guarding a vehicle entrance? And why not the double doors (if the vertical/horizontal generators were up).

To me, NC realize I am right, which I am lol. Majority of infantry battles occur at chock points and capture points. Not wide open spaces. And if they do, there is always the option of hitting your sprint and running away or behind cover. But, people will always come in here coming up with their 1 or 2 time stories of how they died in a MAX to justify them not being OP in the current game setup. But the "majority" of the time, NC scat/haxsaw MAXes are far superior to what the VS/TR have. And that is why we're having this discussion.

What discussion? We gave valid points that defend our points of view with examples of gameplay. I even offered to put this "debate" to the test and record it for all to see. Yet none offered to help, just bitch.

What are you adding to this with posts like that? It looks to me that you didn't bother to read the post you quoted and slapped a L2P reply down full of woulda, shoulda, coulda. He said that their defenses where overrun, so that means the gens are out and all shields are as well and yet you asked why a MAX would be covering that area. A massive open door that had both enemy troops and armor entering in force, and you ask why he was defending it.

This is in no way a discussion if one side refuses to even read the others thoughts and experiences.

[klossboss]

And I gave very valid points and supporting facts to "our" viewpoint. Do you not agree that infantry battles/fights occur more frequently in CQB situations than mid to long range?

Yes, I am asking why a scat/hacksaw max would be defending such a WIDE open area when you guys all prominently say how horrible your MAXes are at range. Which is a very well know fact that I won't disagree with at all. So if he had of known that like he does, why would he be in a position on the lower level where he is hardly effective at all and now near a stairwell, or perhaps the capture point or the SCU generator.

I'm trying to visualize the scenario he is stating and telling him, like what other NC members have stated to the rest of us (VS/TR) as in, how we shouldn't engage NC MAXes within 10m or die. And I am telling him where he went wrong.

Also, I would gladly help "test" but as it stands right now my laptop I'm on cannot run PS2 as I am on business travel. And it doesn't require PSU forum members to do these tests. Just do it yourself with outfit members. Not difficult at all.

[BIGGByran]

WOOT! Grinder is not in this mess! I preffer the Grinder over hack/scat any day! Glad my babies are out of this "discussion." :P

Ok ok, say if the devs did listen and replaces the Hack/Scat/Grin, what suggestions would you guys give to change our weapons?

Would you want it to shoot love and flower pedals? lol but in seriousness what would replace our shotguns? I noticed that even our ESF has a f*cking shotgun as its ES weapon.

[Varsam]

I figured since we were having a speculative anecdotal argument then I would just throw out my last experience with hacksaw max. The only REAL evidence we have seen shows that hacksaw maxes are pretty worthless against other maxes outside of five meters.

No one is debating that. As far as I can tell in this thread, EVERYone agrees that scatmaxes mulch everything within 5m, and suck past that range.

What discussion? We gave valid points that defend our points of view with examples of gameplay. I even offered to put this "debate" to the test and record it for all to see. Yet none offered to help, just bitch.

What are you adding to this with posts like that? It looks to me that you didn't bother to read the post you quoted and slapped a L2P reply down full of woulda, shoulda, coulda. He said that their defenses where overrun, so that means the gens are out and all shields are as well and yet you asked why a MAX would be covering that area. A massive open door that had both enemy troops and armor entering in force, and you ask why he was defending it.

This is in no way a discussion if one side refuses to even read the others thoughts and experiences.

You should've read my post, then, because it addresses "your side's arguments" directly. For your convenience, here it is again:

"I'm really tired of people using the "scatmaxes suck at range" argument to justify the dominance of scatmaxes. If the game were a simple death match with wildly varying terrain types you'd see infantry in, that might be a valid argument. But this game revolves around base captures, which is where the bulk of infantry combat happens. All Points of interest in base capture (generators, scu, towers, buildings) force cqc, and this is where you see maxes. It is very, very easy in this case as a max to control the engagement so that you only engage at your optimal range. You would actually have to try harder in order to NOT engage at close range. In all of these scenarios, the brutal effectiveness and advantage scatmaxes have over their other empire counterparts is clear. NC maxes have capabilities that the other empires simply do not have. This is the same reasoning behind the magrider nerf (poorly implemented as it was), and so should be sound reasoning behind a scatmax nerf."

Also, there is no need for your experiment. Again, we all agree that scatmaxes are ineffective outside of the 0-10m range. That's not what's being disputed here.

WOOT! Grinder is not in this mess! I preffer the Grinder over hack/scat any day! Glad my babies are out of this "discussion." :P

Ok ok, say if the devs did listen and replaces the Hack/Scat/Grin, what suggestions would you guys give to change our weapons?

Would you want it to shoot love and flower pedals? lol but in seriousness what would replace our shotguns? I noticed that even our ESF has a f*cking shotgun as its ES weapon.
I'm not ready to give up on shotgun maxes just yet. I think NC maxes should retain their uniqueness. But I also think that some major tweaking needs to be done to make them less specialized. I think I saw someone post a suggestion somewhere to decrease firing rate while decreasing reload time also in order to nerf burst damage while retaining overall dps.

Barring that, I think slow-firing hard-hitting Gauss Cannons would fit the NC MO nicely.

[AThreatToYou]

Barring that, I think slow-firing hard-hitting Gauss Cannons would fit the NC MO nicely.

>slug rounds

but yeah.

[Chewy]

And I gave very valid points and supporting facts to "our" viewpoint. Do you not agree that infantry battles/fights occur more frequently in CQB situations than mid to long range?

Yes, I am asking why a scat/hacksaw max would be defending such a WIDE open area when you guys all prominently say how horrible your MAXes are at range. Which is a very well know fact that I won't disagree with at all. So if he had of known that like he does, why would he be in a position on the lower level where he is hardly effective at all and now near a stairwell, or perhaps the capture point or the SCU generator.

I'm trying to visualize the scenario he is stating and telling him, like what other NC members have stated to the rest of us (VS/TR) as in, how we shouldn't engage NC MAXes within 10m or die. And I am telling him where he went wrong.

Also, I would gladly help "test" but as it stands right now my laptop I'm on cannot run PS2 as I am on business travel. And it doesn't require PSU forum members to do these tests. Just do it yourself with outfit members. Not difficult at all.

Your now saying that NC MAXes should stay in pure CQC areas and not even try to defend more vital spots? The cap point and SCU gen are far to open and have near unlimited ways to be flanked if the enemy is on the ground floor. You hold all doors (rear vehicle bay, the 2 shielded sides of the main vehicle bay, 2 back doors, and lift pads) or you let LAs run the entire tech plant with it's zero roofs on the 2nd floor and the SCU shield gen is just high enough for Infs to snipe all day from the back end of the 2nd floor.

Back on topic. Are you now telling me that you WANT NC MAXes to camp in the smallest of places and are agreeing that they have little to no value outside of a pure CQC area? The very thing you and others have been auguring your hate over? Make up your mind man.

To answerer you first question. The way I see fights go is them starting at long range and slowly getting to CQC. With most of time spent getting to the CQC areas and once there fights are over in moments. Med range is what Id call the norm, around the 50m mark that covers a courtyard. This is of course if the base is defended. Ghost caps ignore most of this and it's a bum rush to the cap point and spawn camping.

Attackers have to now work to enter a courtyard and it's a battle in itself over the shield gens and control over that courtyard to let attacking armor in for a mob-up. It's only after the attackers get past that is where real CQC fights happen and before then both the TR and VS MAXes HGM type weapons are FAR better. They can be used at near any range to lock down an area with their ammo supplies and not having to reload after every burst. A TR or VS MAX at 30m is DEADLY to troops, a NC MAX at that range is shit. TR and VS MAXes rule courtyards, NC MAXes only rule indoors.

Edit addition-
-Varsam

Sorry about seeming to ignore you and not fully reading your post. It takes me a LONG time to type out my thoughts and often a few others post before I can finish. (this one took 30-45 minutes, and the edit alone took another 10). Here's a reply to your repost.


"NC maxes have capabilities that the other empires simply do not have. This is the same reasoning behind the magrider nerf (poorly implemented as it was), and so should be sound reasoning behind a scatmax nerf."

That isn't true. It's true that NC MAXes are better indoors, but ONLY indoors and are outplayed by everything in the game outside of CQC. I see it as the TR and VS MAXes having abilities the NC MAX doesn't. Being able to engage and kill at near any range. That's why Mags got nerfed. They could keep firing on targets while never having to be at risk themselves thanks to their movement. NC MAXes are forced into grenade spam areas and infantry fights if they want to be of use. With the limited ammo and constant reloads needed a NC MAX can never take on more than 3 people before being forced into a retreat even within those 5m.

[elementHTTP]

NC max needs moar dakka
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQWq1Z-J-EE

[Masterr]

Nerf scatmax against other max units. Keep scatmax dmg against regular infantry.

Biolab setting - scatmax vs TR/VS max = scatmax wins. Especially if he has hacksaws.

[Sledgecrushr]

Nerf scatmax against other max units. Keep scatmax dmg against regular infantry.

Biolab setting - scatmax vs TR/VS max = scatmax wins. Especially if he has hacksaws.

I absolutely hate this generalisation. Its all about range. I dont want to see the factions homogenized into virtual clones.

[Sledgecrushr]

Of course since the nc scat mac is so op then there have to be a few dedicated nc scat max users on the top of the leaderboards. Show me your proof that this unit is op.

Edit*. So I took my own advice and looked at the leaderboards here on psu. For Connery I only looked at the top fifteen. The first eleven were all engineers, number twelve is a HA and the rest are engineers. Fourteen out of the top fifteen mostly play engineer which means that they are mostly all HE kill whore spawncampers. Air did not deserve the flak armor buff they just received in the last patch.

[Sprintfox]

Of course since the nc scat mac is so op then there have to be a few dedicated nc scat max users on the top of the leaderboards. Show me your proof that this unit is op.

http://www.bilderload.com/bild/287780/impressive286TN.png (http://www.bilderload.com/bild/287780/impressive286TN.png)

Me, today.
I have to agree in some way, Scat + Falcon are OP.

[typhaon]

I've put out stats like that with a ScatMAX.

I could easily show you those stats with TR and VS MAX units, as well.

[Sprintfox]

I've put out stats like that with a ScatMAX.

I could easily show you those stats with TR and VS MAX units, as well.

Well, both TR and VS, which tried to get into the Biolab, have lost a huge amount of MAXes. And they had also engineers repairing them.

[Maniya]

Bio lab Bio lab Bio lab. so much Bio labbing. How about we call it Biolabside 2?

[ColdCheese]

Couldn't resist the daily sale 1/2 off Scattercannons, best buy yet. Rips through them like marshmellows and almost unstoppable at biodomes with a good engineer or two. Can't wait to see how they are with Slug ammo, heard its pretty accurate up to 20m.

[thegreekboy]

I absolutely hate this generalisation. Its all about range. I dont want to see the factions homogenized into virtual clones.

We're not asking fro that. All we're asking for is the reload time/ time between shots be increased slightly so you can't instagib 4 fucking MAXes

We want "BAM..BAM..BAM". Not how it is now "BAMBAMBAMBAMBAM"

[Sledgecrushr]

We're not asking fro that. All we're asking for is the reload time/ time between shots be increased slightly so you can't instagib 4 fucking MAXes

We want "BAM..BAM..BAM". Not how it is now "BAMBAMBAMBAMBAM"

Dude exaggerating wont get you anywhere.

[Baneblade]

If I can kill 4 TR or VS MAXes in a row with an NC MAX, they weren't trying to kill me.

[thegreekboy]

Dude exaggerating wont get you anywhere.

I'm not exaggerating. I HAVE seen one hacksaw MAX kill 4 Mercy MAXes

Hacksaw MAX turns a corner. Instagibs the first MAX, gets 2 hits on the second. Ducks back behind cover, reloads, pops back out, instagibs teh next Mercy MAX. By this time the last 2 have him surrounded, so he can't duck back behind cover. He sprints away behind a doorway, reloads, pops back out, instagibs another. 3 down. 4 th Mercy Max is now trying to reload. The hacksaw MAX reloads as it runs towards him. They both fire at the same time. Mercy MAX finished off the Hacksaw just as the Hacksaw instagibs the Mercy.

So there ya go.

Again, all I ask is a longer time between shots.

[klossboss]

Planetside 2 - MAX - YouTube

@1:10 in the video he takes out 2 VS MAXes no problem within 3 seconds.
@ 2:50 he's SMART and uses his ability to close the distance.
@ 3:20 he takes out a HA with his shield up in 1 sec flat.

So, don't even tell me that VS/TR MAXes are on par with what a NC MAX is. MAX = like the video says. "Mechanized Assault Exo-Suit. Keyword is "Assault." Getting up in people's faces and making their unborn children cry!

[klossboss]

If I can kill 4 TR or VS MAXes in a row with an NC MAX, they weren't trying to kill me.

Yeah, because by the time they realize you shot them, they're already dead...

[BIGGByran]

@1:10 in the video he takes out 2 VS MAXes no problem within 3 seconds.

Maybe I should complain how underpowered any max is when I get killed by a guy with a knife because he has no ammo.

Clearly those Maxs were hiding because they were damaged and waiting for repairs.

Last night when I was playing my Max, Scat/Grinder roughly 21 total shots before reloading (7 from scat and 14 from Ext Grinder or some number like that, I hardly use my max as I love playing Inf more.) I walked out and saw 6 VS groups up and thought free certs. Unloaded 21 shots into them before dying and not one of them died. I was like WTF and then thought, oh thats right, their distance was > than 15m. (Our base was overrun and I hardly ever use my Inf Resource so I thought wth.)

[thegreekboy]

Maybe I should complain how underpowered any max is when I get killed by a guy with a knife because he has no ammo.

Clearly those Maxs were hiding because they were damaged and waiting for repairs.

Last night when I was playing my Max, Scat/Grinder roughly 21 total shots before reloading (7 from scat and 14 from Ext Grinder or some number like that, I hardly use my max as I love playing Inf more.) I walked out and saw 6 VS groups up and thought free certs. Unloaded 21 shots into them before dying and not one of them died. I was like WTF and then thought, oh thats right, their distance was > than 15m. (Our base was overrun and I hardly ever use my Inf Resource so I thought wth.)

If you piad attention they were at almost full hp. also, realize that he was using stock scattercannons, not hacksaws.

[klossboss]

Maybe I should complain how underpowered any max is when I get killed by a guy with a knife because he has no ammo.

Clearly those Maxs were hiding because they were damaged and waiting for repairs.

Last night when I was playing my Max, Scat/Grinder roughly 21 total shots before reloading (7 from scat and 14 from Ext Grinder or some number like that, I hardly use my max as I love playing Inf more.) I walked out and saw 6 VS groups up and thought free certs. Unloaded 21 shots into them before dying and not one of them died. I was like WTF and then thought, oh thats right, their distance was > than 15m. (Our base was overrun and I hardly ever use my Inf Resource so I thought wth.)

Clearly you saw in the video he took down the first MAX to ~10% from his first volley in which he retreated. I'll give you that. But he took out that 2nd MAX that was at FULL HP as he did not have an HP bar active above his head meaning he was at FULL HP. THEN!!!! When the third MAX went to try to kill him, he took him out in less than 2 seconds. ALSO!!! All the while he took out a regular joe at roughly 20m with ease.

Side note. If you youtube or conduct tests. Answer me this. If you're getting shot at, you're not going to frickin stand still and take the shots. You're going to find cover and wait for an engi to heal you or charge up to the dude shooting you so you can point blank, bust a nut all over them and keep on killing. No other factions MAX can do this other than the NC's.

[Chewy]

Planetside 2 - MAX - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDlcSqBz4xc&list=UUlV-ys9-rG4Zj42SOTDIZ7Q&index=6)

@1:10 in the video he takes out 2 VS MAXes no problem within 3 seconds.
@ 2:50 he's SMART and uses his ability to close the distance.
@ 3:20 he takes out a HA with his shield up in 1 sec flat.

So, don't even tell me that VS/TR MAXes are on par with what a NC MAX is. MAX = like the video says. "Mechanized Assault Exo-Suit. Keyword is "Assault." Getting up in people's faces and making their unborn children cry!

@0:37- It took 10 shells at under a meter to kill a full HP MAX. Those 3 @1:10 where HEAVILY damaged without any form of support or repairs. The first of those 3 started getting hit by the VP (video poster) @1:07 by getting a FULL dual scat into him (14 shells) then it took another 4 to kill. I don't know what HP the other 2 where at thanks to the video quality but it took 4 shells to finish it off the 2nd MAX and it took 8 shells for the 3rd.

If it takes 10 shells to kill a MAX at 1 meter then by math the other 2 VS MAXes where at around 40% and 80% HP before the VP even got eyes in them from taking fire from an enemy flooded outpost. Those explosions @1:25 and the fire hitting the VP from his back might have also done even more damage on top of the VPs 8 shells.

The guy @2:50 was not only alone but RELOADING, the VP seen that and went for an easy kill. And as for the shielded HA @3:20 you pointed out, look @3:11. That spawn was CAMPED and people where being killed before they got to the door where the VP was at. Id put cash money that very HA had maybe 10% of his shield left before taking those 2-4 shells in his face.

There's also the fact that the only time the VP has any sort of a fight was @1:25, he took what looks like 20% damage, but had an engie repairing him (hard to see, you can just make out the sound and the green pop up under VPs health that only shows when getting healed/repaired). As well as @3:43 where EVERY time got shot it took at least 15% of health and more. If backup didn't come @4:00 his death was a 100% chance against 2+ troops.


I will say that you did a good job hand picking a decent video showing what might happen in a heated fight. Yet the VP got LUCKY AS FUCK that entire time with him having backup and his enemy with none until @3:43 where he lucked out with the base cap and a pack of NC came in to clear the room for him. You can also see how much reloading is FORCED on NC MAXes. We spend more time reloading than shooting! In that video (before the first cut @2:38) the VP reloaded 10 times and ran out of ammo. In the 2nd cut (@2:38-@4:07) he reloaded 7 times. 17 reloads and running out of ammo in 4 minutes of gameplay (without knowing how much was cut out @2:38). That's 59.5 seconds of down time in just reloading. 1 out of the 4 minutes being usless and forced to run or die. Need I say more?

-Edit addition-
klossboss-

Im sorry for not getting the test done yet. My net has been shit for about a week now. Although I love to watch all things spaz into oblivion when lagging but it makes getting real data and video quality impossible. For anyone that knows what SuddenLink is I beg of you to curse their name.

[klossboss]

So you're saying he was "Lucky as fuck" to have either his outfit or friends there with him to provide him support!? Damn, what a concept that 99% of the people who play this game do... is teamwork/support. And, for awhile there he DIDNT have any support.

Now to your statement of reloading. Yeah? so what. TR have the LONGEST reloads out of all 3 factions. Does it matter? Yes and no. Only once in that video did it somewhat matter that he had to reload. he chose to do a tactical reload after only expending 4 out of his 7 rounds in each of his cannons. Seems to me he's a smart/good player and knows how to play his MAX to its fullest potential/killing power.

Also, something that hasn't been brought up yet. Is since the TTK for NC MAXes are a lot lower than VS/TR, it means people have less reaction time to do damage output which essentially means less damage taken by the NC MAX which means the longer he/she can go killing more and more people.

Basically like thegreek has stated is make the TTK of the NC MAX on par with the VS/TR MAXes.

[BIGGByran]

Basically like thegreek has stated is make the TTK of the NC MAX on par with the VS/TR MAXes.

Please understand that TTK is IF ALL BULLETS hit. Anything outside of 3m and NOT all bullets hit there for TTK is increased and the further away it is the more it takes for TTK.

TTK is ideal situation and no situation is ideal.

[Graywolves]

Anything outside of 3m

I like how the effective range is constantly falling the further this thread goes.

[Synical]

Planetside 2 MAX - NCSO Max Carnage - YouTube

Dual Hacksaw starts at 1:16.

Seems about right. Yes, this MAX annihilated everything in its path, but guess what, he/she was also playing smart. He/she knew when it was time to retreat and regroup. You can see at multiple times in the video if the player didn't retreat he/she would have been dropped multiple times. Watch 1:44 - 1:48, the MAX was nearly torn to pieces or 2:30 - 2:36 he takes on three enemies at extremely close range and nearly dies. Yes, he killed all three of them, but he/she played smart and the three TR rushed the MAX head on like morons and they still did significant damage to it.

From everything I have experienced or watched they seem to be balanced well enough. Get close enough or play in a generally unintelligent fashion and you are done. Play intelligently, don't rush the Dual Hacksaw MAX and outnumber him and he will go down quickly if he doesn't retreat. Simple enough.

Just my opinion of course.

[BIGGByran]

I like how the effective range is constantly falling the further this thread goes.

You cannot deny the truth. Just because you don't want to tell yourself that effective range matters. I would say roughly 90-95% of combat happens outside the effective range of an NC max (that mean ALL battles, not just Biodomes). Less than that for any other Maxs. It is like compairing a Eng with a Shotgun Vs a Eng with a Carbine. A carbine is more versitle than a shotgun and has a better effective range.

I hear people complaining about the Max's ability, maybe with the ES max ability, they will remove the sprint or you have to pick and chose.

EDIT:

Ok after watching Synical video. hacksaw do seem OP, but not the Scat/Grinder. I don't use hacksaw, and I don't think I will ever. They seem fun, but nnnaaahhh. PLUS if you noticed, how much shots it takes to kill someone? Half a clip to kill 1 person at ranges > 10M.

[Graywolves]

You cannot deny the truth.

Truth seems pretty apparent in some videos that have been posted. Not denying anything I've seen. Simply pointed out a trend.

[PurpleOtter]

Wow!

It ONLY took 12 pages to get everyone to agree that the NC anti infantry MAX needs some "adjustment"!

LOL

[DHoff]

Solution.....VS and TR MAXs get really really long TTK at < 20m and > 30m, but kill MAXes in 1 second at 20-30m. It's only fair right? That's where they are SUPPOSED to dominate, just like the NC MX.

At long range they take forever to kill, at short range they take forever to kill, but at mid-range they instagib things just like the NC MAX. It's only fair.

Now....since that change would be completely retarded, the simple solution is to nerf the hell out of the NC MAX in short range by severely increasing its TTK, but at the same time, also giving it slightly more range/tighter cone of fire, and/or allowing it to swap between slugs and buckshot on the fly.

[OCNSethy]

Wow!

It ONLY took 12 pages to get everyone to agree that the NC anti infantry MAX needs some "adjustment"!

LOL

Well, we are on an internet forum... :groovy:

Thats pretty damn fast actually :)

[Baneblade]

Yeah, because by the time they realize you shot them, they're already dead...

Earlier today I had to chase a TR MAX down with my NC MAX. I mean he literally tried to rabbit away. Of course I couldn't actually kill him, because he was more than 5 m away.

[klossboss]

Does it matter how much ammo it takes to kill someone when they die in less than 1 second all the time everytime? lol... And also, that MAX was smart when engaging at range in only use either his left or right hacksaw while running closer to the enemy and when he was within a better/optimal range he used his other while the first was reloading.

I think the problem or issue most NC have is they think/feel its not worth shooting beyond 10m because they don't get the same results as they do <10m. you still do damage. Sure its not going to be what it is <10m, but you can still kill crap beyond 10m. Just takes longer. Just like EVERY other dang gun in this game.

[klossboss]

Earlier today I had to chase a TR MAX down with my NC MAX. I mean he literally tried to rabbit away. Of course I couldn't actually kill him, because he was more than 5 m away.

And thank you for proving to me and everyone else you are bad then. There are MANY videos out there showing/proving NC MAXes are able to kill beyond 10m and dang well instagib everything <10m.

[AThreatToYou]

I still believe we should buff the other MAX units before we nerf the NC max.

Or you can do both. Give a slight accuracy boost to slug rounds on MAX, and still more a significant accuracy boost to other MAX anti-infantry weapons.

[klossboss]

I still believe we should buff the other MAX units before we nerf the NC max.

Or you can do both. Give a slight accuracy boost to slug rounds on MAX, and still more a significant accuracy boost to other MAX anti-infantry weapons.

I agree, its always better to adjust upwards than downwards. If you know what I mean? But how? I'm asking because I'm not original or good at coming up with new ideas to balance such a complex issue such as this. I just know there is a vast imbalance and debate towards that imbalance but other than what thegreekboy hinted at I'm out of ideas.

[BIGGByran]

Does it matter how much ammo it takes to kill someone when they die in less than 1 second all the time everytime? lol... And also, that MAX was smart when engaging at range in only use either his left or right hacksaw while running closer to the enemy and when he was within a better/optimal range he used his other while the first was reloading.

I think the problem or issue most NC have is they think/feel its not worth shooting beyond 10m because they don't get the same results as they do <10m. you still do damage. Sure its not going to be what it is <10m, but you can still kill crap beyond 10m. Just takes longer. Just like EVERY other dang gun in this game.

Should there be a TTK at different Ranges?
NC obviously with the Hacksaw rocks <10m but meh on other while other maxs are good at all ranges?
Can't use the stats on paper as proof that NC Max are OP, need real statistics.
If Higby can produce Max K/D with Inf with the specific weapons and see what really is going on, for all factions.
Like I said before, I think you guys are on to something with the HACKSAW, not with the scat/grinder yet as it fire time is the same as TR's max fire time, if I mash the sh!t out of my mouse.


@klossboss
Maybe increasing Rate of Fire for TR, so its TTK is quicker but also steady at all ranges? and VS Max just need some love.
NC Max TTK increases are the range is closer, while TR can have the same TTK at close to mid range while slowing down as range gets to great.

[Lord Mondando]

The issue with the magrider (barely nerfed really... people seem to be mistaking bugs with its strafe as intentional despite expressed statements to the contary from developers) is that it Is the most versitile weapon in game. Its not particuarly amazing in any one instance, but it is highly adaptable.

Where as the Nc Max avec shotguns, is hugely situational. Outside of enclosed space (were a robot man with shot gun arms, should presumably excel) it is utterly useless.

And why should it being unfair in these instances argue for a nerf. The fundamental premise here is NC has a niche fraction edge, it should not have this.

Why shouldn't it?

[Baneblade]

And thank you for proving to me and everyone else you are bad then. There are MANY videos out there showing/proving NC MAXes are able to kill beyond 10m and dang well instagib everything <10m.

Maybe in a preset testing environment, but in the real situation things aren't quite as predictable. He was running away from me, and I had to keep slowing down to shoot at him. Which means he was getting further and further away. Not to mention the obstacle course he was ducking around to make it that much harder.

So if my not being able to keep the myth surrounding the NC MAX and it's ability to kill from across the map alive means I'm bad, I'd hate to think what that means for mere mortals.

[psijaka]

This is all that needs to be done.

What needs to be done is introduce TR and VS variants of the Scattercannon, retaining their empire specific characteristics.

TR faster rate of fire, lower damage per pellet, bigger mag. Similar DPS to Scattercannon.

VS slightly lower damage, same rate of fire, slightly lower DPS but somewhat tighter pellet spread. Bigger mag and faster reload.

And the NC get something similar to the TR HMG with higher damage, lower fire rate, smaller mag.

As NC, I would love to be able to equip a MAX with dual machine guns and be more versatile.

[Dkamanus]

Give TR and VS a 20% damage boost and add 1/3 RoF in every weapon. I think it'll probably be too much, but that should fix em compared to the NC MAX.

[Sledgecrushr]

Ive watched lots of video of tr maxes going on epic killing sprees. Good players do that sort of thing. Im not a great player and I had a thirty kill streek the other night on matthison attacking a bio lab with an uncerted vs max. The ai/av combo is bad ass, I was cutting nc down in waves.

[Sledgecrushr]

Give TR and VS a 20% damage boost and add 1/3 RoF in every weapon. I think it'll probably be too much, but that should fix em compared to the NC MAX.

Ok, and give us range out to 50 meters like the other factions. Better yet just give all the maxes the same weapons so buthurt players wont cry so much. This thread sucks.

[Varsam]

Maybe in a preset testing environment, but in the real situation things aren't quite as predictable. He was running away from me, and I had to keep slowing down to shoot at him. Which means he was getting further and further away. Not to mention the obstacle course he was ducking around to make it that much harder.

So if my not being able to keep the myth surrounding the NC MAX and it's ability to kill from across the map alive means I'm bad, I'd hate to think what that means for mere mortals.

No one thinks the nc max is effective
across the map. Your hyperbole is ridiculous and unwarranted.




Ok, and give us range out to 50 meters like the other factions. Better yet just give all the maxes the same weapons so buthurt players wont cry so much. This thread sucks.

Calling even mercy maxes effective at 50 meters would be a stretch.

[SDLshannon]

@0:37- It took 10 shells at under a meter to kill a full HP MAX. Those 3 @1:10 where HEAVILY damaged without any form of support or repairs. The first of those 3 started getting hit by the VP (video poster) @1:07 by getting a FULL dual scat into him (14 shells) then it took another 4 to kill. I don't know what HP the other 2 where at thanks to the video quality but it took 4 shells to finish it off the 2nd MAX and it took 8 shells for the 3rd.

If it takes 10 shells to kill a MAX at 1 meter then by math the other 2 VS MAXes where at around 40% and 80% HP before the VP even got eyes in them from taking fire from an enemy flooded outpost. Those explosions @1:25 and the fire hitting the VP from his back might have also done even more damage on top of the VPs 8 shells.

The guy @2:50 was not only alone but RELOADING, the VP seen that and went for an easy kill. And as for the shielded HA @3:20 you pointed out, look @3:11. That spawn was CAMPED and people where being killed before they got to the door where the VP was at. Id put cash money that very HA had maybe 10% of his shield left before taking those 2-4 shells in his face.

There's also the fact that the only time the VP has any sort of a fight was @1:25, he took what looks like 20% damage, but had an engie repairing him (hard to see, you can just make out the sound and the green pop up under VPs health that only shows when getting healed/repaired). As well as @3:43 where EVERY time got shot it took at least 15% of health and more. If backup didn't come @4:00 his death was a 100% chance against 2+ troops.


I will say that you did a good job hand picking a decent video showing what might happen in a heated fight. Yet the VP got LUCKY AS FUCK that entire time with him having backup and his enemy with none until @3:43 where he lucked out with the base cap and a pack of NC came in to clear the room for him. You can also see how much reloading is FORCED on NC MAXes. We spend more time reloading than shooting! In that video (before the first cut @2:38) the VP reloaded 10 times and ran out of ammo. In the 2nd cut (@2:38-@4:07) he reloaded 7 times. 17 reloads and running out of ammo in 4 minutes of gameplay (without knowing how much was cut out @2:38). That's 59.5 seconds of down time in just reloading. 1 out of the 4 minutes being usless and forced to run or die. Need I say more?

-Edit addition-
klossboss-

Im sorry for not getting the test done yet. My net has been shit for about a week now. Although I love to watch all things spaz into oblivion when lagging but it makes getting real data and video quality impossible. For anyone that knows what SuddenLink is I beg of you to curse their name.

Hi- My name is Shannon and I am with Suddenlink. I am sorry to hear you are having trouble with your internet service and would be happy to help resolve. You can email me directly at shannon-AT-suddenlink-DOT-com. Thank you!

[SGOniell]

Alright, after reading this entire thread, which was very tiring mind you. I see a few things. I see an OP who isn't open to discussion, saying he "doesn't want arguments." I also see him want to nerf things just because he says so, without justification, which he seems to have pointed out as his point somewhere along the way.

I also see MAX vs MAX comparisons, which I think are partially helpful. The discussion is MAX vs infantry, yet the comparisons given do offer a view on their firepower. I think testing on Infantry at different ranges would be better suited.

I also see lots of whining, and I grow tired of it. It seems to come down to the fact that people just hate the NC MAX because of its short effective range and the fact that it kills incredibly quickly there.

Well, let's look at this in terms of a self defense scenario in your home for comparison. You have a choice between a shotgun, and an assault rifle. Which would you pick? Some would say the assault rifle, for sheer rof to keep someone down. I, and most others who've picked a gun for defense, will choose a shotgun. Shotguns will put a target down. An assault rifle can over penetrate the target, and the damage delivered by each round sucks for dropping people (look at the 6.8spc, designed to outperform the 5.56 because it couldn't drop people in 1 shot.).

The Shotgun is a weapon made for CQB, these other weapons are not. You're all complaining about a SHOTGUN, being too powerful at the very ranges its supposed to be most lethal. Seriously?

Furthermore, I believe sufficient evidence has been given to how frail NC MAX units can be. Learn to DEAL WITH IT. They all have their strengths, they all have their weaknesses. Each Empire's MAX units can be used to great effect, or if used poorly, can be brought down by a single soldier.

One last thing. I see people complaining about the range at which most battles are fought. While it is true that everything revolves around short ranges, have you all forgotten laying siege to the Crown? Or the foot battle to get to other outposts? There are certainly enough alternative venues for combat. I typically find myself as heavy assault engaging at ranges around 20m-50m. Even entering biolabs results in a fight at the entrances, where you aren't close enough for the NC Max to be effective.

But, if you guys insist on running into one head on then be my guest, you just haven't learned to leverage its weaknesses, and your strengths. THAT is what makes a good player. One who can adapt, can outsmart their enemy. So try harder, use that flash bang suggestion I found earlier in the thread.

The tools are their, as with anything, people simply refuse to use them.

[Assist]

Alright, after reading this entire thread, which was very tiring mind you. I see a few things. I see an OP who isn't open to discussion, saying he "doesn't want arguments." I also see him want to nerf things just because he says so, without justification, which he seems to have pointed out as his point somewhere along the way.

You read the entire thread and came to these conclusions?

[SGOniell]

You read the entire thread and came to these conclusions?

Would you like me to pull up your quotes on "not wanting an argument" and on "nerfing because people say it should be"?

[SGOniell]

T I don't want to hear arguments

This thread actually isn't about the NC MAX needing a justification for a nerf. It's about people calling for nerfs just because they can.

Apologies assist, I misread the author of the one regarding justification. But, nevertheless, you did say you don't want to hear arguments.

[Assist]

Apologies assist, I misread the author of the one regarding justification. But, nevertheless, you did say you don't want to hear arguments.
I stated that to make a point. You can use nearly the same exact argument over the NC MAX that was used to nerf the Magrider. You can quite literally replace Magrider with NC MAX and come to the same conclusions, except that Higby has not posted the 'effective' stats of the NC MAX. Hearing arguments that are irrelevant because they can be misguided by statistics isn't what I wanted this thread to become. Unfortunately it has, because people don't read threads. I used the thread title 'Nerf the XXXXXXX' because I knew it would get views since this community(ps2) is more concerned with nerfing things into the ground rather than countering them with their play style.

Keep scissors sharp, rocks hard, and paper thin. Homogenization is for milk.

This thread actually isn't about the NC MAX needing a justification for a nerf. It's about people calling for nerfs just because they can.

Maybe Maradine's thread was needed. :rolleyes:

Some of you missed the point of the post. I don't want a game with three factions that all play the same, but that's what they've been balancing the game to and quite frankly it's boring that the game has been reduced to only infantry fights for the game to be 'fun'. This game should be about strategic military style warfare.



You can read above, or perhaps my other post in here which I linked to as well. I guess you don't want to read it, which is fine, but stop responding if you're not going to read it. I bring the facts that I know from the game because it's all I have. Like I said, I can make a video of the VS MAX against an NC MAX and show it to you destroying the VS MAX, what does it prove? It proves I set a situation that favored my point of view to get the results I wanted. If you don't believe the NC MAX is too strong I suggest you spend a little more time in the game, but that WASN'T THE POINT OF THIS ENTIRE THREAD. Please read what I wrote rather than going on and on about stupid shit like nerfs that I explained I DON'T WANT THEM TO HAPPEN.

Once again, hopefully you'll read this rather than just ignoring it, I've stated that I do NOT want the NC MAX to be nerfed. However, I also feel the TRAC-5, CARV, Magrider, etc also did not need to be nerfed. 'Dumbing' the game down so everyone has the same effective k/d is not balance, it's mediocrity and I am trying to get the point across to you guys about that. Someone screams NERF, posts some random stat that supports it, and the community jumps on it. This is how the balance has gone so far, even in beta, and it's not how it should be done IMO as it only makes the game boring.


You should really read the thread before stating you read the thread. You'd understand a bit more about the thread.

[AuntLou]

If I see a NC max I might as well just accept the death and stop trying to run. I'm dead in a second or less every time I see one. I have both the nebula and the quasar for the VS max and experience nothing like this. It's more of a 4-5 second battle like a normal gun, maybe even worse.

[NotTheMomma]

....
Where as the Nc Max avec shotguns, is hugely situational. Outside of enclosed space (were a robot man with shot gun arms, should presumably excel) it is utterly useless.

And why should it being unfair in these instances argue for a nerf. The fundamental premise here is NC has a niche fraction edge, it should not have this.

Why shouldn't it?
I think my biggest problem with it, the tepidness of the VS MAX notwithstanding, is how that niche edge fits into the key mechanics of the game. Almost everything important in the game is in close quarters, near obstructions or approached by choke points of some kind. Control points, generators, SCU's, etc. This "hugely situational" benefit translates into a strategic superiority, now that they've been transferred from the "Combat Outpost Keating" warpgate, lol.

The guy who posted "just throw grenades" just made me laugh. You obviously don't have maxed out flak armor on your MAX. An NC scat MAX, an engineer and a medic keeping to cover -- all with flak armor -- can defend a generator practically indefinitely unless you have an entire squad blanket them with grenades all at once (and half of them are still going to die) ... which sounds just a bit unbalanced, wouldn't you say?

And, yes, you can get range in a Biolab fight. I do on occasion and have a nice, shiny K/D to show for it. But, that's not what takes or holds a Biolab. And that is proven day after day now that NC's population has jumped back up after a tank buff and great new warpgate on Indar, where I have seen them hold ALL THREE BIOLABS on THREE DIFFERENT SERVERS time and time and time again, until they get bored of it.

[Sifer2]

I have not been keeping up on this topic. Just wanted to add that I was playing yesterday, and am now convinced Hacksaw MAX has FAR more range than NC give them credit for. Got gibbed from nearly 40m. Maybe it's the slugs. Whatever it is all I know is the NC defense force claiming they are only deadly in 10m range are full of it. I'm now certain this thing is on par with TR Mercy MAX in terms of effective range having felt it reach out an touch me first hand. And yes I was at full health.

[SGOniell]

I stated that to make a point. You can use nearly the same exact argument over the NC MAX that was used to nerf the Magrider. You can quite literally replace Magrider with NC MAX and come to the same conclusions, except that Higby has not posted the 'effective' stats of the NC MAX. Hearing arguments that are irrelevant because they can be misguided by statistics isn't what I wanted this thread to become. Unfortunately it has, because people don't read threads. I used the thread title 'Nerf the XXXXXXX' because I knew it would get views since this community(ps2) is more concerned with nerfing things into the ground rather than countering them with their play style.

You should really read the thread before stating you read the thread. You'd understand a bit more about the thread.

As stated, I read the entire thread, just because I misquoted one instance is no reason to assume I did not.

Also of note, I find it amusing you ignored everything I said other than my original conclusions. The quotes you linked to definitely seem to disagree with the way you've spoken on the nerfing. Or I may have misread entries again by the other Vanu poster. My screen is split between Strength of Materials and this forum at the moment, so I have to scroll to the right to read everything.

But, next time, you need not be misguiding with your original posts, it does not help, and even now I question whether you are being completely truthful. No offense, but you've misguided us once, why would you not do it again?

If your later post does indeed hold the truth, then I agree with you wholeheartedly, it does not need to be nerfed. Of course, I didn't think the Magrider or anything else needed it either. The one thing I ever thought caused problems, was air power.

Bring your point to the forefront with your original posts next time, and choose suitable titles. Otherwise you poison a good thread open to decent discussion with those who simply can't manage discussion without horrid bickering.

[BIGGByran]

I stated that to make a point. You can use nearly the same exact argument over the NC MAX that was used to nerf the Magrider. You can quite literally replace Magrider with NC MAX and come to the same conclusions

Hhmmmmm, so the VS Max has more maneuverability over other maxs, can climb wall that other maxs can't, and has weapon stabilization that the NC and TR maxs don't, which help hittings targets A LOT!

The only difference between the maxs are the weapons and thats pretty much it. You can't say the only difference between the Tank are the weapons.

Please Assist get Higby to release the data on Max Vs Max K/D and Max Vs Inf K/D. Or get a Dev to read this post and see what their thoughts are. I wish they would have a site where you can look this stuff up. Would be interesting to know the statistic of nearly everything.

[xCeoNx]

OK... I've read this whole thread and it was funny...

In summarision it was like:

"NC max has shortest ttk "- "but they suck at long range"
"but they are op in cqc" - "but they suck at long range"
"but most critical battle is in cqc" - "but they suck at long range"
"nc max has mathmatically the highsest burstdmg and highest dps over time" "but they suck at long range"

but back to topic

"The Shotgun is a weapon made for CQB, these other weapons are not. You're all complaining about a SHOTGUN, being too powerful at the very ranges its supposed to be most lethal. Seriously?"


At first, what is the morality of TR "numbers over power, Many bullets, high RoF, low dmg per shot"
and what is the one of NC "few bullets, small Rof, but brute force"

Now think about, what a shotgun like hacksaw is... MANY SMALL GODDAMNIT BULLETS WITH F**KING HIGH ROF" (sorry)

I think Shotguns are a bad choice of weapons for NC MAX in the first place. Something like a very slow firing Gauss Rifle with high dmg per shot, small mag, and properly reload time, would suit the mentality much more than the weapons they have now.
And I think the weapons of NC MAXes could be easily scripted into such weapons, each with its own pros and cons, but would rather like to see a max with 2 weak Sniper rifles on his arms, that destroy my shield + 50%of my health with the first two shots, even at longer range, than 5-10m, but give me time to react and take cover, or leave the room i entered overhasty, before he is ready to make his other 2 devestating shots"
This could be balanced more easily for all three maxes and wouldnt be: "all fractions are the same"

[WarbirdTD]

The most infuriating thing is going through a door in a Bio Lab (Yes, you do have to do that to reach base objectives), and being instakilled by hacksaws because someone managed to push the left and right mouse buttons at the same time. You're telling me that this isn't ridiculous in your eyes? There are entire facilities that are designed to force point blank fighting, and you're trying to tell me not to go within 15 meters of an NC MAX? If fair's fair, we take all control points and generators OUT of the buildings in a bio lab.

But how about an easier solution... Decrease the hacksaw's damage so that it at least has to refire to kill someone with a dual hacksaw setup. Three shots instead of two and I might be able to get off my grenade that I started throwing from the other side of the door. It's an additional half-second, but I think you'll see a change from the standard 40 hacksaw maxes and 10 engineers camping a bio lab just because they can. Maybe it'll promote playing the game, instead of camping/farming doorways and corners.

And then there's the third option, if you don't like changing base layouts, and you don't want your precious hacksaws slightly nerfed from being instagib. Let TR and VS buy Hacksaws for their MAXes. I love this option, because I know how you NC love to cry OP, so the best way to show you how brutally overpowered your crap is would be to let us have it too. What's the harm there? And don't give me some bullshit lore excuse for a competitive game like this.

Also, can TR and VS PLEASE get a direct copy of the Gauss SAW (you know, the only 200 dpb LMG in the game?) so we can fill up hallways with ridiculous amounts of damage? I'm willing to trade my T9 CARV, TMG-50, and first-born child for it. Didn't Higby say a long time ago that each empire could change or buy weapons that performed just like another empire's weapon to avoid balance problems/questions? What happened to that?

[Boomzor]

Didn't Higby say a long time ago that each empire could change or buy weapons that performed just like another empire's weapon to avoid balance problems/questions? What happened to that?

He never said that.

What he did say was that you can gear your arsenal towards the other empire characteristics, but never to the extent to equal them in that regard.

How close that statement is to reality can be debated tho.