Mines blowing up stationary targets = stupid

[Sturmhardt]

I think it's stupid that mines can kill any stationary vehicle in seconds. It's rally the role of C4 to blow up stationary targets, mines are for everything that is actually driving/moving.

Every Sundy dies instantly to a single engineer who happens to have mines with him - and every engineer has mines, they are cheap and useful.

I would love it if you actually needed C4 for stationary and not moving vehicles and mines would only blow up if the vehicle starts moving. It would make mines a little more what they are supposed to be and a sundy would not get killed by a single engineer all the time. As an engineer there is pretty much no reason to equip C4. This would also play more into the "sidegrade" thing the devs have been promoting all the time.

[superseohyun]

use mineguard.... for gods sake

[EvilNinjadude]

use mineguard.... for gods sake
Listen to his reasonable argument for god's sake.

You're like those people who countered complaints of spawn camping with "L2P n00b if you get spawncamped you lose". And now that all the spawn rooms are changed, their silliness has become a thing of the past.

Now, in my OWN opinion, I agree with the OP that Tank Mines really are like automated C4, and that this should not be the case. I get the fact that proximity mines blow up when people are nearby, and as far as I can tell that makes sense too. But the Tank mines feel wrong.

[Trefugl]

Mines should be able to be disarmed before something like this makes sense. Otherwise the sundy would blow up once it packs up to leave (or magically starts sliding on flat ground while deployed) and there would be no way to avoid it.

[superseohyun]

Listen to his reasonable argument for god's sake.

You're like those people who countered complaints of spawn camping with "L2P n00b if you get spawncamped you lose". And now that all the spawn rooms are changed, their silliness has become a thing of the past.

Now, in my OWN opinion, I agree with the OP that Tank Mines really are like automated C4, and that this should not be the case. I get the fact that proximity mines blow up when people are nearby, and as far as I can tell that makes sense too. But the Tank mines feel wrong.

i read his argument and dont find it reasonable at all. i mean, really? Every Sundy dies instantly to a single engineer who happens to have mines with him? i believe you actually meant every stupid sundy.
anyway, the best advice i can give: use mineguard for gods sake and laugh while watching engineers wasting their mines on your sunder and die every single time lol

[Baneblade]

I think you are missing the OP's point, Engs have no need of C4 with the way mines work now.

Mines shouldn't even activate when something that will trigger them is in range. It's basic munitions safety.

[Rago]

I really like this point on AV Mines and i dont want to miss it, i prefer FUN over REALISM.

Like driving a buggy and using a Fury ? ? ? YES !

Let this stuff in.

[thegreekboy]

Mines don't blow up stationary objects. The way it works is that you throw the mines down then shoot them to blow the sunderer.

It should be left in because its actually difficult to do. you place emphasis on how you think its unfair that ONE guy can blow up a sunderer with AV mines. However, that's what balances them. I want you to try and bomb an enemy sunderer that is the MAIN spawn for the zerg attacking a base. It's near impossible.

One of the greatest moments i had in planetside yet was when TRG was defending Eisa (old Eisa, not new Eisa) and the entire Vanu zerg was spawning on one sunderer tucked into the hills. I went engie and, using the hills and going WAAAY around, destroyed it with mines-after about 20 deaths trying to do the same thing.

[VR Draco]

@thegreekboy, the point is what you described is the way C4 should work.
But why get C4, if tank mines explodes under a deployed sunderer. And they DO explode without shooting them. They also explode if dropped ON TOP of a tank and this is also stupid.

So make C4 usefull for this situations and let tank mines be what they should be, fight PREPARATION. Targets, which don't move or mines ON TOP of a target should NOT explode. And if detonate by shooting at, their firepower should be cut in half.

[TerranRoughneck]

I pretty much just logged in here for the first time since before beta to agree with the OP like times 10! It is easily the most frustrating and game killing exploit to allow engineers to place mines under parked and deployed vehicles for an INSTAKILL. Like, really? How does that even make sense?

I'm fine with driving over a mine, it sucks and it's annoying but it's legit. That's how mines work. Putting them under a deployed sundered or prowler? For instant fiery death? That can too easily ruin an assault or defense before it ever even gets started. And people know it, that's the worst part. I really hope SOE changes this.

[thegreekboy]

@thegreekboy, the point is what you described is the way C4 should work.
But why get C4, if tank mines explodes under a deployed sunderer. And they DO explode without shooting them. They also explode if dropped ON TOP of a tank and this is also stupid.

So make C4 usefull for this situations and let tank mines be what they should be, fight PREPARATION. Targets, which don't move or mines ON TOP of a target should NOT explode. And if detonate by shooting at, their firepower should be cut in half.

Except that c4 costs a RIDICULOUS amount of both certs and resources and is not as effective as 2 mines in the first place.

[VR Draco]

That is not the point, MINES should not work that way. That behaviour should be reserved for C4.

If the mines would not detonate, layed under a NOT MOVING target, you would need C4, what would justify its high cost. As you said, a deployed sunderer is the MAIN target, why should it be destroyed that cheap?

Mines are for fight preparation and nothing else...

[Varsam]

Mines don't blow up stationary objects. The way it works is that you throw the mines down then shoot them to blow the sunderer.

It should be left in because its actually difficult to do. you place emphasis on how you think its unfair that ONE guy can blow up a sunderer with AV mines.

Actually, mines do trigger on stationary targets. So no, it's not terribly hard to do. At all.

i read his argument and dont find it reasonable at all. i mean, really? Every Sundy dies instantly to a single engineer who happens to have mines with him? i believe you actually meant every stupid sundy.
anyway, the best advice i can give: use mineguard for gods sake and laugh while watching engineers wasting their mines on your sunder and die every single time lol

Players should be able to spend their certs freely in order to promote varying gameplay styles and meaningful choices, not because of poor game play promoted by poor game design. The amount of effort it requires to mine a non mineguard sundy is laughably low compared to the corresponding reward for blowing it up. sundy drivers shouldn't be forced to purchase mineguard just to stay competitive it's the same problems ESFs are facing right now - flares and flak armor are practically mandatory upgrades for ESFs due to the sheer ubiquity and effectiveness of anti-air systems. It precludes all other options, and limits gameplay variability. Which is bad.

[isilyan]

Gotta agree with Op no this one, just think how much 4th Empire Sundy Tk problems this would solve....

[Ghoest9]

Why is it "stupid?"

Because you dont like it?

I see no reason why a mine could not be used to blow up a stationary target - boom is boom.

[HansGoddius]

I think there is a better solution. Mines SHOULD blow up a stationary target.
However, there should be either a wait time while placing a mine.
People need to defend their sundees! (Its a spawn point) but the way things work now, you can't kill an engi fast enough while he places a mine. I know cuz I do it all the time.

My solution to stop people such as myself is to make it take longer to set up a mine. If you do it tank mines will not be OP. Now if it took me 3 seconds to place a mine and you let me place two mines down, your sundee should get blown up.

[VR Draco]

And again, why should I cert C4?

You SHOULD blow up the deployed sunderer with C4, not with tank mines, that is the point.

[iMartyr]

I got blown up by mines a few tines, then I certed mineguard. I don't use mines for stationary targets and I reserve c4 for grouped up enemies, max suits, and before turning corners

I adapt because the game allowed me too if they didn't have mineguard for a cert then I'd say yeah nerf it

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2

[maradine]

I see no reason why a mine could not be used to blow up a stationary target - boom is boom.

1. Because then it's not a mine.
2. Because there's already unlockable item meant to be used as a demolition charge.

[Hamma]

I think it's stupid that mines can kill any stationary vehicle in seconds. It's rally the role of C4 to blow up stationary targets, mines are for everything that is actually driving/moving.

100% agreed this is an extremely OP tool for people to use. People always say "DEFEND BETTER THEN" that still doesn't change the fact being able to do this is extremely OP.

[Merzun]

You get blown up by mines. Cert Mineguard simple as that. With fully certed mineguard it takes 7 mines to blow up a sundy. Thats 2 more than 1 engy can carry with certed ammo belt. Also mineguard is laughable cheap with like what 330 certs for lvl 4 and why shouldn't they blow up without movement? They are proximity mines for a reason. We have magnetic triggers since decades ago and the game is playing in the future.

[HansGoddius]

@Hamma If it took engineers more time to place a tank mine, you would see that that the tank mine wouldn't be as op. C4 should be instadropped, Tank mines should require time to deploy.

[psijaka]

Mines shouldn't automatically detonate when placed on/by/under a stationary target; the Engi should have to shoot them to set them off. But otherwise I'm fine with AV mines used against Sunderers; not stupid at all; even though I've had my Sundy blown up a few times this way.

[superseohyun]

Mines absolutely should blow up a stationary target. If it senses enemy vehicle, it should blow up, simple as that. doesnt matter if the target is stationary or moving.

from a gameplay perspective, every sunder used as a spawnpoint at the front line should cert mineguard. Unless its job is to supply ammo for tank column.

[Ghoest9]

1. Because then it's not a mine.
2. Because there's already unlockable item meant to be used as a demolition charge.


But that doesnt make sense.

Now if your suggestion was that it take longer to set a mine - I completely agree.

But If I come up on a completely undefended sunderer it really shouldnt matter if its a mine or not the explosions is the same.

[maradine]

Selecting the right tool for the job doesn't matter?

[Varsam]

You get blown up by mines. Cert Mineguard simple as that. With fully certed mineguard it takes 7 mines to blow up a sundy. Thats 2 more than 1 engy can carry with certed ammo belt. Also mineguard is laughable cheap with like what 330 certs for lvl 4 and why shouldn't they blow up without movement? They are proximity mines for a reason. We have magnetic triggers since decades ago and the game is playing in the future.

You're missing the point. The point is sundy drivers shouldn't be pidgeonholed into certing mineguard. It makes for static and ultimately stagnant gameplay.

[Merzun]

You're missing the point. The point is sundy drivers shouldn't be pidgeonholed into certing mineguard. It makes for static and ultimately stagnant gameplay.

Are they? Or should we call it adapting to the situation. If I know I will park my sundy near an enemy spawn point or a position where it is easy to reach I take mineguard. For backup sundy I take ammo dispenser or other stuff.

Same as for infantry. If I'm going to assault a tower I will choose nanoweave cause of the amount of gunfire I will get into instead of flak armor.

I'm a sundy driver myself. If I loose it I didn't take enough care.

From all the sundies I killed with mines there is not one of them I can remember of using mineguard. Yet it seems these players come and complain despite there being a hard counter to it. From my perspective it seems these players want some kind of cookie cutter sundie that is very resistant to everything while getting lots of xp out of it.

But as with most things in this game it's a question of what risk will you take. More vulnerable to mines, to other explosive or to both with the reward of getting more xp?

[Rbstr]

Why should a tank mine be rendered a non-explosive if the target isn't moving? That's silly.

I do think they're too powerful against sundies. You get two mines for the first cert and can blow up anything that's not explicitly protected. C4 doesn't come close to that power.

I'd say:
Stationary vehicles shouldn't set them off just by sitting there. It should require shooting the mine or doping a nade on them or something.
The sundy should take at least 3 mines to blow up, so any jerk with the first level certed can't blow it up.

[TheSaltySeagull]

I dont really find mines to be "OP" when used in this fashion because as people have said cert mine guard and this tactic becomes totally ineffective. However I still dont like it because as was pointed out the mines now overlap with the role of C4 for the engineer and act as a cheaper, easier to unlock, and more powerful version of it. It effectively makes C4 useless to engineers which I do view as a problem. The mines should be changed to provide incentive to engineers to utilize C4 as the primary demolition tool and mines be used as the passive defensive tools that they are traditionally used as.

[Spazmodian]

You're missing the point. The point is sundy drivers shouldn't be pidgeonholed into certing mineguard. It makes for static and ultimately stagnant gameplay.

Yet, almost no one uses Mineguard.

I'm quite a prolific destroyer of Sunderers. I've run across exactly 2 enemy Sunderers with Mineguard. If I include friendly Sunderers that I've observed to use Mineguard my total goes up to 4.

I can't see any rationality in the arguments against AT mines when the direct and nearly complete counter is used so little.

[KaskaMatej]

Considering AT mines can only be triggered by vehicles and C4 can be manually detonated on anything, I think AT mines have much more narrow use. Why would you limit that what is limited by effective use even more?

Mines in this game have an IFF magnetic trigger, they are not pressure triggered, that's why they can detonate on stationary vehicles and that's why they explode on Magriders and very low flying aircraft.
I don't think anyone would like to see Magriders being immune to mines, now would we? I know I wouldn't, and I'm VS.

[Ruffdog]

Agreed it is stupid. A non mineguard sundy dies to 2 mines which is a bullshit ttk.

Right now Mineguard precludes Blockade armor

http://wiki.planetside-universe.com/ps/Sunderer

So you either protect against air weapons, tank rounds and HA rockets or against this C4 substitute. You're just buying time in the end really. Once the enemy has found your spawn it either has to move or die. But 1 engy can bring a quick quick end to it.

[NewSith]

Every Sundy dies instantly to a single engineer who happens to have mines with him - and every engineer has mines, they are cheap and useful.


Mine*Cough*Guard

Or do you want a placed AMS to be an indestructable auto-win? That's coming from an AMS driver BTW.

[Roy Awesome]

While mineguard is the answer, should it be that rock-paper-scissors? Your Sunderer is literally useless unless you have Mineguard 2, and you are simply retarded if you don't use mineguard.

If you cert into mineguard, you stop your AMS from getting oneshot by Mines, but you can still be oneshot by 2 C4 + rocket.

One shotting spawn points isn't very fun. Mineguard isn't balancing Tank Mines, it's just covering up how stupidly powerful they are.

[NewSith]

While mineguard is the answer, should it be that rock-paper-scissors? Your Sunderer is literally useless unless you have Mineguard 2, and you are simply retarded if you don't use mineguard.

If you cert into mineguard, you stop your AMS from getting oneshot by Mines, but you can still be oneshot by 2 C4 + rocket.

One shotting spawn points isn't very fun. Mineguard isn't balancing Tank Mines, it's just covering up how stupidly powerful they are.

Well, I'd view it from another perspective...

What if stealth prevented your vehicle from showing on the minimap whatsoever, even after being spotted?
What if blockade armor was giving you 40% extra armor at max, without increasing yout time to repair?
What if Nanite auto-repair kicked in only after 5 seconds of not taking damage?
What if Ammo Dispenser made Sunderer ammo unlimited?


The Mine Guard IS balanced. It is just that other sidegrades are ridiculously underpowered.

[Sturmhardt]

Mine*Cough*Guard


No, the Mineguard is not the solution and I'll tell you why:
The chance that a single engineer with mines is going to get to your sunderer in a base is VERY high. So high that you NEED the mineguard, or else your Sundy blows up. While the Mineguard helps to prevent that, that makes the Mineguard MANDATORY. Basically you are saying "Get a Mineguard or get blown up." and that can't be, because if there are multiple upgrades to choose from, you really have to have a choice. Right now you don't and that clearly states that something is wrong. By saying you NEED a Mineguard you basically say you can't use the other ones.

I don't have a problem with highly specialized units that have certed into killing stationary Sundys and need to put some effort into this (C4 for example), but MINES are not intended to do it, too overabundant and too cheap and easy to use for this right now. I HAVE to have the Mineguard (and I do) and that's just not how an upgrade system should work.

[KaskaMatej]

While mineguard is the answer, should it be that rock-paper-scissors?

Yes.

[Sturmhardt]

Yes.

No, read my post above: Right now it's rock or die. You don't have a choice.

[Merzun]

No, the Mineguard is not the solution and I'll tell you why:
The chance that a single engineer with mines is going to get to your sunderer in a base is VERY high. So high that you NEED the mineguard, or else your Sundy blows up. While the Mineguard helps to prevent that, that makes the Mineguard MANDATORY. Basically you are saying "Get a Mineguard or get blown up." and that can't be, because if there are multiple upgrades to choose from, you really have to have a choice. Right now you don't and that clearly states that something is wrong. By saying you NEED a Mineguard you basically say you can't use the other ones.

I don't have a problem with highly specialized units that have certed into killing stationary Sundys and need to put some effort into this (C4 for example), but MINES are not intended to do it, too overabundant and too cheap and easy to use for this right now. I HAVE to have the Mineguard (and I do) and that's just not how an upgrade system should work.


So you are going into a highly defended base knowing that you will meet rock and then opting for scissors instead of going paper and then you are complaining that you lose? If you are going scissors it's your risk which can work in the end and reward you, or not.

You can always choose other stuff but then you also have to adapt your sundy placement. Like taking stealth and parking it outside of the base.

Just for comparison: It takes 7 Mines to instantly blow up a lvl 4 sundy. 4 Levels of mineguard cost 330 certs.
One engi can carry up to 5 mines. So 2 less than you need to kill the sundy. Thats 725 ressources compared to 400 for the sundy. And it comes with a cost of 2400 certs to carry them.

There is no cookie cutter build in this game that minimises all your risk while greatly increasing your outcome. Otherwise we get the desaster BFRs were in PS1.

[Ghoest9]

Selecting the right tool for the job doesn't matter?

If you find a soldier sleeping and decide to kill him it really doesnt matter if you use a rock or laser gun.

So no in some situations the tool doesnt matter.

[Sturmhardt]

So you are going into a highly defended base knowing that you will meet rock and then opting for scissors instead of going paper and then you are complaining that you lose? If you are going scissors it's your risk which can work in the end and reward you, or not.

You can always choose other stuff but then you also have to adapt your sundy placement. Like taking stealth and parking it outside of the base.


Stealth parking outside of a base? Have you actually played the game? Bases on PS2 (especially on Indar) are so close together, that when I park really stealthy I am parking in another base. If you want your sundy to be useful you need to park it near the base, which leaves you with no other choice than to equip the mineguard.

I don't mind equipping the mineguard for laid out mines, because there I have a choice: If I drive on the road I need the mineguard to protect me from the mines there, but I can also choose not to drive on the road and use another upgrade. I like driving on the road so I CHOOSE to use the Mineguard. When I park my Sundy near a base (and I don't have a choice here, I need to park it near a base) I NEED the mineguard, otherwise it gets blown up by the first engineer showing up. No choice here. Just rock or die.

[NewSith]

Stealth parking outside of a base? Have you actually played the game? Bases on PS2 (especially on Indar) are so close together, that when I park really stealthy I am parking in another base. If you want your sundy to be useful you need to park it near the base, which leaves you with no other choice than to equip the mineguard.

I don't mind equipping the mineguard for laid out mines, because there I have a choice: If I drive on the road I need the mineguard to protect me from the mines there, but I can also choose not to drive on the road and use another upgrade. I like driving on the road so I CHOOSE to use the Mineguard. When I park my Sundy near a base (and I don't have a choice here, I need to park it near a base) I NEED the mineguard, otherwise it gets blown up by the first engineer showing up. No choice here. Just rock or die.

Man, you're just quoting the Tank people here... If we couldn't have 666 Sunderers equipped with AMS, I'd agree that Mines are OP. But since EVERYONE can pull an AMS and the're no limitations to it, 1 man killing 1 AMS is balanced.

[Baneblade]

Mines should blow up in your hands when in range of an enemy vehicle.

[KaskaMatej]

Man, you're just quoting the Tank people here... If we couldn't have 666 Sunderers equipped with AMS, I'd agree that Mines are OP. But since EVERYONE can pull an AMS and the're no limitations to it, 1 man killing 1 AMS is balanced.

I completely agree with you on that. Unless they give a limitation who and/or where you can pull an AMS, everyone should be able to destroy it.

If you park your Sundy close enough for the enemy to get to it, place mines and get 500 XP for it, it's either you're bad or he's good. If you can't defend your Sundy you should lose it, you have the tools to defend it, utilize them and don't go and cry on the forums how unfair it is.

If you're unable to cert into mineguard maybe you shouldn't pull the Sunderer, simple as that.

[VR Draco]

omg....

The damn point is not to loose a sunderer...the point IS that the tank mines work like C4 and this makes C4 USELESS for an engineer. There is NO thing pro C4 if you have the choice for tank mines. And THIS is the damn problem.

Make tank mines only explode if there is a moving target ABOVE them or if shoot and you would prefer C4 to make a sunderer explode. So tank mines would be perfect to prepare a base that will be attacked and this should be their purpose.

[Donefore]

superseohyun is a noob that dont understands he s a Farmer

[Sturmhardt]

since EVERYONE can pull an AMS and the're no limitations to it, 1 man killing 1 AMS is balanced.

I agree to some point... I would love stuff in PS2 to have some kind of value. Sundys don't have much more value than a sole engineer.


If you're unable to cert into mineguard maybe you shouldn't pull the Sunderer, simple as that.

So you agree with me, if you want to use the Sunderer you have to use the Mineguard. I can't use the other upgrades because otherwise the Sunderer would become useless. Do you think it should be like that?

[EVILPIG]

To be fair, this thread title is stupid. If it was a motion mine, then it should not explode. If proximity, then the vehicle is in proximity = BOOM. Magnetic = BOOM.

[KaskaMatej]

So you agree with me, if you want to use the Sunderer you have to use the Mineguard. I can't use the other upgrades because otherwise the Sunderer would become useless. Do you think it should be like that?

No, I don't agree it's a must-have. Lately, more and more AMS deaths are to C4 instead of mines beacuse 3 C4 bricks kill a fully leveled mineguard.

Will you complain about C4 killing when everyone will use C4 instead of mines and the only thing countering with C4 is blockade armour? Then everyone will use blockade and people will start using mines, and everyone will use mineguard and people will use C4, etc...

Hide you AMS where it's only few ways in and mines won't be a problem. Have few people guard the AMS and no engi will be able to get to it. Here, your AT mines "problem" is solved.

[Merzun]

Stealth parking outside of a base? Have you actually played the game? Bases on PS2 (especially on Indar) are so close together, that when I park really stealthy I am parking in another base. If you want your sundy to be useful you need to park it near the base, which leaves you with no other choice than to equip the mineguard.

I don't mind equipping the mineguard for laid out mines, because there I have a choice: If I drive on the road I need the mineguard to protect me from the mines there, but I can also choose not to drive on the road and use another upgrade. I like driving on the road so I CHOOSE to use the Mineguard. When I park my Sundy near a base (and I don't have a choice here, I need to park it near a base) I NEED the mineguard, otherwise it gets blown up by the first engineer showing up. No choice here. Just rock or die.


Fresh from battle of Camp Waterson. Wasn't there the whole time only for about the last 20-25 min. Map showed VS presence with multiple platoons.
They had some air and tank support. NC had the same.

First AMS was in the south at my position and got taken out either by air or tank. Both where present when it exploded.

http://i.imgur.com/59ZtEbXl.jpg


AMS 2 and 3 proved to be invaluable despite being parked way of the base. Non of the 3 had mineguard certed.

http://i.imgur.com/8EK2tsxl.jpg



After NC pushed VS back to spawn a 4 was brought in. Didn't have mineguard. This was the only one that was taken out by mines, but at a point the battle was already over, at least 2 backup AMS where waiting and were ready to be deployed. Also the engi came in via droppod. Otherwise he would most likely never reached the AMS.

http://i.imgur.com/yldZaaol.jpg


So from my perspective AMS without mineguard are usable. Parking them offside the fight is useful to the battle. Push the enemy
back and bring in an AMS when the area is secured.

[Carver]

I did plenty of successful kamakazie C4 sunderer bombing attacks before I discovered the magic of AT mines. If mines got nerfed i'd go back to C4, it's only slightly harder and eats up way more resources. The end result is going to be the same, an instantly blown up sunderer.

I can recall 2, maybe 3 sunderers that had mineguard out of the dozens and dozens that i've blown up with mines.. maybe over 100. If you're not going to babysit your sunderer and are going to park it up close as a forward spawn point, mineguard seems like the only choice, but almost nobody uses it.

[LoliLoveFart]

Here's a thought. AV mines are a hard counter for vehicle spam yes? And sunderers are available at every term yes? How about we go back to ye ol' sundies from the same terms as MBTs and turn AV mines into a non proxy version so they have to be used preemptively. Two birds one stone right there. You fix sundy swarms and mines.

[KaskaMatej]

Here's a thought. AV mines are a hard counter for vehicle spam yes? And sunderers are available at every term yes? How about we go back to ye ol' sundies from the same terms as MBTs and turn AV mines into a non proxy version so they have to be used preemptively. Two birds one stone right there. You fix sundy swarms and mines.

No, it wouldn't really "fix" the problem because everyone can still pull AMS Sundies, just not everywhere.

It wouldn't "help" making mines non-proxy either. You place 2 mines down at an AMS and someone throws a grenade/shots the mine with a rocket/grenade launcher/bullets and the mines explode, destroying the non-mineguarded Sunderer.

[PineappleShoes]

I actually enjoy this contrast and think it IS a balancing factor. Here is how I see it...

Mineguard sundy can plow into a base, take out mines in the process and deploy up close, if an engy comes in and throws more at it, it can take a beating but is HIGHLY suceptable to Tank rounds, C4, Rockets, Phalanx turrets, Lightnings, etc etc. Anyone can come in and just do solid damage to it, 2 C4 blows it up easily and it can be tossed by an engy or light assault, or heavy or medic... anyone.

Bloacde armor, This can take a beating from everything else and has time to dish it out as well, however it is incredibly exposed to a solo engy that can run in and toss mines on it, it can crash the gates as well but is better left at a distance that can sufficiently block any solo incoming man be it on a flash or on foot. I have both maxed mineguard and maxed blockade, both are B E A U T I F U L in their proper setting. a blockade sundy can take so much punishment, and if you have the distance, no lone wolf can come in and do anything about it.

Ammo is not meant to be a battle sundy, it sits in the back and ammos it up, it has an auxilary purpose that is VITAL for an armored zerg

Repair sundy is pretty much worthless imo but that isn't the point of the argument here, just my personal thought on the matter.


Leave it as it is, if you bring in a sundy into the middle of the base, Mineguard is great for stopiung the lonewolf AT miner, but it is weak to everything else, Blocade is strong to everything else but weak to the solo man with the right equip.

Chose wisely

[Roy Awesome]

I'd rather have the PS1 system where mines can only be placed a certain distance from eachother. They tried to do this around GU1, but oh man the rage and butthurt that people couldn't one-shot tanks.

[isilyan]

Well, I'd view it from another perspective...

What if stealth prevented your vehicle from showing on the minimap whatsoever, even after being spotted?
What if blockade armor was giving you 40% extra armor at max, without increasing yout time to repair?
What if Nanite auto-repair kicked in only after 5 seconds of not taking damage?
What if Ammo Dispenser made Sunderer ammo unlimited?


The Mine Guard IS balanced. It is just that other sidegrades are ridiculously underpowered.
Yup wished they would merge Blokade+Mineguard, but i know its a delusion:doh:

[Brusi]

If someone can explain their detonation mechanism, then i'm happy for them to stay the way they are. Otherwise, increase the amount able to be carried to like 10 if they can only be used defensively.

[KaskaMatej]

If someone can explain their detonation mechanism

Magnetic proximity trigger with IFF sensor and sonar device.

It detects feromagnetic material in/on/around a vehicle. If the feromagnetic field is big and strong enough and if the sonar imaging matches any known vehicle signature (to prevent being triggered by infantry and MAX units) it ignites a shape charge stored in protective casing.

The IFF sensor is to prevent unwanted automatic detonation on friendly vehicles.

[OCNSethy]

Might take out my ammo option on my Sundie and replace it with a mine guard. Im getting killed by mines before I get to resupply my team mates anyway :)

[Saintlycow]

The issue is that Mines do C4's job (the way you percieve it) better than C4 itself.

Mines have little delay between drop. They explode without a thumbed trigger. 2 will destroy a non Mineguard sundy

C4 have a long delay between place. YOu need to trigger them. This trigger has a long delay. 2 will NOT destroy a sundy. you need a little extra.


People don't use c4 on sundies because it takes time, and is not as simple and effective as C4


IMO, first they need to increase the delay between droping mines. Make a priming animation that lasts 3 seconds. (give or take). I suspect this will fix issues. For starters, it causes you to drop 1 mine, run, wait for explosion, return, and drop the second mine. If you aren't caught, the sundy deserves to blow up. The delay also encourages teamwork, and multiple engies will have a better chance.

Also, I would really like if they fixed the delays on C4. i hate mashing the trigger and getting nothing, and later being killed.

[BIGGByran]

And again, why should I cert C4?

C4 can kill:
Infantry
Max
Tanks
Sundies
Aircraft
Turrets

Tank Mines can Kill:
Tanks

Something that is so OP sure does have a very very very short list. I guess it is a specialist and not a Jack Of All Trades.

[BIGGByran]

Mines should blow up in your hands when in range of an enemy vehicle.

OMG LMFAO. That still shouldn't stop a suicidal engineer, so long as the 2nd tank mine in your backpack blows too.

I love you Baneblade, I pictured that and the Eng's reaction in my head and omg greatness.

[BIGGByran]

If you aren't caught, the sundy deserves to blow up. The delay also encourages teamwork, and multiple engies will have a better chance.

Teamwork? How? Are you telling me that AV Mines are preventing you from doing teamwork? I did not think AV mine had that much power... :D

When I pull a sundy out. I baby it. I don't leave it's side and I protect it with my life! No enemy is coming close enough to my sundy to smell it, they will get a clip full of lead from me, or my sundy.


Sorry for all the post. I don't know how to do multiple qoutes in 1 reply. Still fresh on the forum stuff.

[OCNSethy]

When I pull a sundy out. I baby it. I don't leave it's side and I protect it with my life! No enemy is coming close enough to my sundy to smell it, they will get a clip full of lead from me, or my sundy.



This. An unguarded Sundie is a dead sundie and of no use to anyone.

[BIGGByran]

This. An unguarded Sundie is a dead sundie and of no use to anyone.

TRUTH!

I hope no one comes on here and say, "Well, I shouldn't have to stay by my sundy to defend it. It should be able to defend it's self! I mean, the reason why I park it right on top(bottom) of the enemy spawn point is because enemies knows not to touch any enemy sundy that is park right underneat their spawn point. It is a given rule! I mean if I park it outside, a distance away from their base, I am being cruel to them as they have to run and hope not to get shot and die before making it to my sundy."

Eng are really sneaky, I seen a sundy with about 10-15 people next to it plus 10-15 more that a going from sundy to the battle and an Eng gets in close enough to blow it up with tank mines. Eng OP, they are better infiltrators than the actual infiltrator class.

[Synical]

AT Mines should be able to take out a Sunderer without mineguard easily. They are anti-tank/anti-vehicle mines, it is their job to make vehicles go boom. If you know that Engineers with mines are going to be an issue, and you are planning on pulling a Sunderer often, cert mineguard. While I HATE being forced into choosing one upgrade or ability over another in ANY MMO, I think it is simply irresponsible to not cert mineguard if you are deploying the primary spawn point for your assault.

Also, as others have pointed out, if you are leaving your Sunderer completely unguarded you deserve to lose it, plain and simple. If an Engineer waltzes in and drops a handful of mines under your Sunderer you are doing something wrong. If I find your Sunderer and throw a turret down near it and spawn camp it does that mean turrets are OP? No, it means you screwed up by not defending your spawn point and now you are paying for it.

Some have brought up C4 being made useless because AT Mines can blow up Sunderers so much easier. Well, to be fair, AT Mines ARE ANTI-TANK MINES, it is their SOLE PURPOSE to blow up vehicles. C4 on the other hand can fill a variety of roles including but not limited to blowing up vehicles, infantry, and gun emplacements.

Just my opinion of course.

[OCNSethy]

Just my opinion of course.


I have no issue with that opinion.... coz its the truth :)

Im going to have to recert my sundie from ammo dispenser to mine guard. There is just no way around it... its gotta be done.

Can you even see mines? (roads etc) If you can, I must be blind.

[BIGGByran]

I have no issue with that opinion.... coz its the truth :)

Im going to have to recert my sundie from ammo dispenser to mine guard. There is just no way around it... its gotta be done.

Can you even see mines? (roads etc) If you can, I must be blind.

No, thats why you sucker a newbie into riding in front of the pack on a flash. lol since people stack mines, 1 flash will get all the mines cleared.

Anyone max rank Mineguard on their Flash? LOL What does max rank do for a flash? Makes it to where if you just had 1 more point of health, you would have survive? lol

[OCNSethy]

No, thats why you sucker a newbie into riding in front of the pack on a flash. lol since people stack mines, 1 flash will get all the mines cleared.

Anyone max rank Mineguard on their Flash? LOL What does max rank do for a flash? Makes it to where if you just had 1 more point of health, you would have survive? lol

Hmmm... mental note.... must go second, or third... oh hell... I'll just bring up the rear :groovy:

[Saintlycow]

Teamwork? How? Are you telling me that AV Mines are preventing you from doing teamwork? I did not think AV mine had that much power... :D


Well, currently, you drop mines at lightning speed, run and BOOOOOOM!!!!

My suggestion would increase delay, so that you wouldn't be able to place a second mine before the first one pops. In that case, multiple suicide engineers would be needed to instantly destroy the sundy.

Teamwork!

[OCNSethy]

Well, currently, you drop mines at lightning speed, run and BOOOOOOM!!!!

My suggestion would increase delay, so that you wouldn't be able to place a second mine before the first one pops. In that case, multiple suicide engineers would be needed to instantly destroy the sundy.

Teamwork!

Can I be on your team? On second thoughts...

[BIGGByran]

Can I be on your team? On second thoughts...

Lawl!

If I ever said, "Can I be on your team Saintlycow?" I wish to retract it after your last post. lol

I can understand maybe a 1 sec delay before being able to place the next one. Seems reasonable. Give the team with the sundy that not defending it 1 more second to regret not defending it. lol or people who are enough time to hopefully kill the eng before the death blow.

[Roy Awesome]

C4 can kill:
Infantry
Max
Tanks
Sundies
Aircraft
Turrets

Tank Mines can Kill:
Tanks


This is completely wrong. Tank Mines have a infantry kill radius that is higher than prox-mines. One strat my outfit uses is drop a tank mine and a prox mine, and you get 3-4 more infantry kills than you would with just a prox alone.

I got an instant silver medal with tank mines in a fight at Hvar back when Tech Plants were untakable. The defenders filled the entire front entrance with tank mines, and one grenade set off a massive chain reaction.

Tank Mines only trigger on vehicles. They kill everything far better than C4.

[Sturmhardt]

The issue is that Mines do C4's job (the way you percieve it) better than C4 itself.

Mines have little delay between drop. They explode without a thumbed trigger. 2 will destroy a non Mineguard sundy

C4 have a long delay between place. YOu need to trigger them. This trigger has a long delay. 2 will NOT destroy a sundy. you need a little extra.


People don't use c4 on sundies because it takes time, and is not as simple and effective as C4


IMO, first they need to increase the delay between droping mines. Make a priming animation that lasts 3 seconds. (give or take). I suspect this will fix issues. For starters, it causes you to drop 1 mine, run, wait for explosion, return, and drop the second mine. If you aren't caught, the sundy deserves to blow up. The delay also encourages teamwork, and multiple engies will have a better chance.

Also, I would really like if they fixed the delays on C4. i hate mashing the trigger and getting nothing, and later being killed.

I wanted to write something similar, but since it's Monday and pretty early over here, I will just quote that and second it.

.sent via phone.

[superseohyun]

The issue is that Mines do C4's job (the way you percieve it) better than C4 itself.

Mines have little delay between drop. They explode without a thumbed trigger. 2 will destroy a non Mineguard sundy

C4 have a long delay between place. YOu need to trigger them. This trigger has a long delay. 2 will NOT destroy a sundy. you need a little extra.


People don't use c4 on sundies because it takes time, and is not as simple and effective as C4


IMO, first they need to increase the delay between droping mines. Make a priming animation that lasts 3 seconds. (give or take). I suspect this will fix issues. For starters, it causes you to drop 1 mine, run, wait for explosion, return, and drop the second mine. If you aren't caught, the sundy deserves to blow up. The delay also encourages teamwork, and multiple engies will have a better chance.

Also, I would really like if they fixed the delays on C4. i hate mashing the trigger and getting nothing, and later being killed.
Why is blowing up an armored vehicle a job of C4 but not the freaking tank mine? i simply cant understand.

[Sturmhardt]

You do know how mines work, do you? You put them down on the ground and when a vehicle drives over them they blow it up.

C4 is made to blow up stationary targets.

You are welcome ;)

Ideally it would look like this: If I want to be safe against laid out mines while driving I use the mineguard. If I want to be safe from being blown up while parking (c4) I use blockade armor. But since mines do c4's job the system does not work.

.sent via phone.

[superseohyun]

You do know how mines work, do you? You put them down on the ground and when a vehicle drives over them they blow it up.

C4 is made to blow up stationary targets.

You are welcome ;)

Ideally it would look like this: If I want to be safe against laid out mines while driving I use the mineguard. If I want to be safe from being blown up while parking (c4) I use blockade armor. But since mines do c4's job the system does not work.

.sent via phone.

nope thats not how it works. As it has been explained several time in this very thread.

but i will quote it anyway.:p

Magnetic proximity trigger with IFF sensor and sonar device.
It detects feromagnetic material in/on/around a vehicle. If the feromagnetic field is big and strong enough and if the sonar imaging matches any known vehicle signature (to prevent being triggered by infantry and MAX units) it ignites a shape charge stored in protective casing.
The IFF sensor is to prevent unwanted automatic detonation on friendly vehicles.

I can understand what you want but obviously thats not what the devs intended. that will make blockade armor so OP its not even funny. Right now if you want a sunder as a reliable spawn point, you have to choose between better defense against mines or better defense against tank, rocket, C4. You cant just cert blockade armor and be done with it. So, if you sunder is really close to enemy spawn point, you'd better cert mineguard because enemy engs will find it relatively easy to get to you. But if you park the sunder a bit distant, blockade armor will be the better choice.

[Sturmhardt]

Don't try to rationalize it with made up technical details, the mines blow up in the engineer's face after all.

I an trying to say that the current system sucks and that it would be better if c4 had it's role and mines had theirs.

.sent via phone.

[superseohyun]

wth? a sci-fi shooter with immortal clone soldiers fighting each other. one faction has hover tank and pew pew laser. yet you are telling me dont try to rationalize it with made up technical details?

blow up in eng faces? when ? what logic? what are you talking about?

[Lord Mondando]

My position

1) its how every Mutliplayer FPS has handled mines since BF1942. The mechanic seems to have been relatively uncontroversial untill recently.
2) The mine is essentially a giant explosive, so in order to make this problem go away to a real extent, you have to make it so that you close place mines down on a vehicle, they would be unsettable off, by anything other than a vehicle driving over that other vehicle (e.g making them not go off when on a vehicle, or simply next to one, simply requires the placer pull out a pistol and shoot them). A more gamey solution than 1)
3) My worry is more, how hard should sundies and vehicles be to kill. Yes I can appreciate its frustrating to get instagibbed on the battlefield by someone you never saw coming. But thats the nature of warfare on this scale, and thus, the game we are playing. I think the opposition to them, and indeed a lot of game mechanics is largely borne of this frustration.

[Elgareth]

Don't try to rationalize it with made up technical details, the mines blow up in the engineer's face after all.

I an trying to say that the current system sucks and that it would be better if c4 had it's role and mines had theirs.


Well... add a timer "Be active 8 Seconds after activation" to the Prox Mine...
Engy activates it, places it under Sundy, 8 seconds later -> Boom.
(You did remember that noone carries ACTIVATED Mines in their Backpack right?)

C4 has it's role: Blowing up MAXes, Turrets, Infantry, and Vehicles.
And mines have their role: Blowing up Vehicles.

Where exactly is the problem about it? Do you want to make C4 useless against Vehicles, so that their uses don't overlap?
ALL a mine does is blowing up Vehicles. You need pretty sick aiming when trying to place a mine somewhere and shooting it in the midst of battle...throwing a C4 and triggering it is much easier... so the Mine has a bigger Boom to balance it.
Going for realism... why can a HA run as fast as other classes, when he wears a much heavier weapon and armor? Where do Sundies get their Biomass to spawn so many fresh humans?...

[Bloodlet]

Mines are fine, use mineguard if you are scared of mines and learn to play.

[Hamma]

Learn to play is not the answer. Try to actually contribute to a discussion.

[TheSaltySeagull]

Why is blowing up an armored vehicle a job of C4 but not the freaking tank mine? i simply cant understand.

Because as has been said it starts to create an overlap that diminishes the role of C4 for the engineer. The blowing up of stationary vehicles is one of the biggest if not the biggest uses of C4 in the game. With the engineer this is not the case since AT mines are deployed in a similar fashion and are more effective.

Also some people take issue with the way mines function as it promotes suicide bomber tactics rather than engineers laying them down in minefields for defensive and area control. Which are the way people traditionally envision mines being used.

As I said earlier I do not find AT mines OP because they can be negated by mineguard. However the way the function now does not promote what I would call fun and interesting gameplay. Rather than minefields being thrown down to slow the advance of armor columns and protect key objectives like in PS1 you have a group of suicide bombers running around instagibing any sundy or tank not running mineguard. Which as evidenced in this thread is a style of gameplay not really enjoyed by many.

What I think really should be done is the damage of AT mines be severely reduced and the number of mines that can be laid down greatly increased. So that actual minefields can be produced and less instakill suicide runs. If an engineer decided he wants to go all jihad rambo he can use C4 like everybody else.

[OCNSethy]

If you wanted to lay a mine field, say on the end of a bridge, how many mines can an individual char lay?

I know when I lay claymores, only one is allowed. if I lay another one, the previous one disappears. Is this also true of AV mines.?

[Riekopo]

If you wanted to lay a mine field, say on the end of a bridge, how many mines can an individual char lay?

I know when I lay claymores, only one is allowed. if I lay another one, the previous one disappears. Is this also true of AV mines.?

With certs maxed out, 3 AV mines and 2 AP mines I believe.

[Elgareth]

With certs maxed out, 3 AV mines and 2 AP mines I believe.

And that is the exact Problem with AV Mines used traditionally... you can only lay 3 (with a steep Cert cost I might add...), and in such big continents without real chokepoints, no tank will drive over more than 1, which isn't enough to kill them. What does a Tank Driver do? Stop, repair, go on.

So you have to use mines unconventionally (stacking them on top of each other, or go for stationary vehicles, or put them on Vehicle spawnpoints) to put them to proper use.

Try to secure even 1 base entrance with 2 Mines...every Tankdriver/Sundy Pilot will drive over 1 when placed in a perimeter, or have a ~20% chance of driving over two stacked ones... that's no effective deterrent IMHO.

Maybe AT Mines should get an additional EMP-Effect upon explosion, making the target vehicle stop and unable to control and fire for ~5 seconds, to make it an easy target for follow-up attacks. In return you could remove the explosion on stationary vehicles...

But as long as building a horizontal mine perimeter consisting of 3 Mines max is pretty much futile since it doesn't kill anything but a flash, and building a vertical perimeter won't ever really create a no-drive-zone, players are basically forced to make use of their AT Mines in different ways... :-/

[OCNSethy]

And that is the exact Problem with AV Mines used traditionally... you can only lay 3 (with a steep Cert cost I might add...), ~snip~

With certs maxed out, 3 AV mines and 2 AP mines I believe.

Well, that sucks. Unless you can convince a group of peeps to cert up their engi chars and lay a proper mine field.

I agree with Elgareth in what this leads to.

[Ghoest9]

The so called "problem" is not mines. There is no reason a mine would be less destructive if you put it under or beside a parked vehicle than if a vehicle drove over it.

The "problem" is that people let you run up and plant mines next to their parked vehicles.

Once again I see a great case for lengthening the deployment time moderately. But beyond that the problem really is the players.

If you dopnt want people running up an popping your sundy/tank - keep them away.

[Baneblade]

I still see no reason for a mine not to detonate immediately when triggered. As in when the Eng is placing it.

Mines are not typically made with a time delay upon activation... its a mine.

So by all accounts the problem here is not that Eng's can mine bomb a Sunderer, but that those mines are not actually mines.

[OCNSethy]

The so called "problem" is not mines. There is no reason a mine would be less destructive if you put it under or beside a parked vehicle than if a vehicle drove over it.

The "problem" is that people let you run up and plant mines next to their parked vehicles.

Once again I see a great case for lengthening the deployment time moderately. But beyond that the problem really is the players.

If you dopnt want people running up an popping your sundy/tank - keep them away.

Easier said than done my friend. One driver staying with the sundie can only do so much. You dont have a 360 fov and people are really good at sneeking now. Or you have groups of enemies decending on you lil sundie...

Yeah, you could have a core group of dedicated defenders but you know as well as I do that is not going to happen unless your in a clan/outfit.

Besides, once they know where you are, you may as well pull up stakes and relocate, coz the next time they come, it will be with armour or air.