Opinion: Selling Cert Points

[Hamma]

So this was tossed around a bit and discussed quite a bit before beta. Certification points would they sell them for station cash or some other means other than in game time/EXP?

What is everyones thoughts on this sort of thing now that we are several months into the game?

[AThreatToYou]

I don't have anything against it, but I'm not exactly "for it", aside from many others will likely oppose. The issue stems from pay-2-win, even if it just won't make it so, it'll make for some bigger gaps but will also allow us to more clearly see the balance of the game, I believe.

I say that it will allow us to more clearly see balance because there will be more players with maxed out certifications. I imagine this will make some slight differences in balance between units that can make or break the devs decision to change things, like MAX unit armor, damage of MAX units, speed of vehicles, or ammo bins.

[camycamera]

interesting. that could be a good idea.

EDIT: maybe something on a smaller scale could work; a type of money that can be swapped from certs and buy cosmetic items etc? just sayin'

[SGOniell]

Hell no. You may be able to buy weapons, but you can't buy experience. It should always be that way. You have to earn your certs the hard way.

[Maniya]

More you make game into "Pay 2 Win" type of thing, harder to balance things out because people will rage over tiny tweak on things that they already purchased with real money. I think its fine as it is now.

[J Baley]

I want to be able to buy them. Pure and simple. Flame me if you will. :D

[J Baley]

Seriously, It doesn't matter how many certs I have, an excellent player will always kill me first. The game is meant to be this way.

[Bunk]

Hell naw boi. You want something you gotta earn it.

[J Baley]

Hell naw boi. You want something you gotta earn it.
I earn it by playing and supporting the game. Right?

[Zulthus]

Absolutely not... buy your guns, fine, I can deal. Anything else? Work for it. They might as well just give you everything right off the bat if you can just purchase it right out of the gate.

[J Baley]

Absolutely not... buy your guns, fine, I can deal. Anything else? Work for it. They might as well just give you everything right off the bat if you can just purchase it right out of the gate.

They don't have to give it all to you FAST. But I'd buy certs. 1000 certs for 1 extra rocket....gimme a break.

[Furber]

Guild Wars 2 has a system where you can exchange in game currency (Gold) for the real money currency (Gems). The exchange rate is pretty steep (getting much steeper since launch), so you would have to really have an excess of gold for it to be worth it. I managed to save $25 on cash shop purchases by converting most of my gold, but that left me pretty dry on the in-game side.

I would think a similar system could be implemented in Planetside 2, but issues do come up. In GW2, most things in the cash shop (maybe all) can only be purchased with Gems (or subsequently with gold that you convert). Where as in Planetside 2 they're selling Infantry and Vehicle Weapons for either Certs or SC. I think they would basically have to put an imaginary cert price on cosmetics that measures how many certs you'd have to convert.

For clarification on the OP, you are talking about only converting from Certs to SC, and NOT vise versa, correct? I think some people are misinterpreting this as a way to buy cert points with station cash. I don't think that's what he's suggesting.

Edit:
If we are talking about SOE letting people buy certs with SC, I think it's a bad idea. One that SOE would not even consider.
But if it's US selling our cert points in exchange for SC, then it could be a decent idea. Still not something I would expect SOE to do, though

[Helwyr]

So this was tossed around a bit and discussed quite a bit before beta. Certification points would they sell them for station cash or some other means other than in game time/EXP?

What is everyones thoughts on this sort of thing now that we are several months into the game?

I thought I recall this idea being rejected by most of the community and universally by SOE. Why bring up it up again? Do you support this idea Hamma?

What about an idea that actually had a lot of support before and during beta, like a Cert Cap and a cert cost to access vehicle types. That's something I could get behind.


EDIT:
[...]
For clarification on the OP, you are talking about only converting from Certs to SC, and NOT vise versa, correct? I think some people are misinterpreting this as a way to buy cert points with station cash. I don't think that's what he's suggesting.

I thought Hamma meant money for certs, not SC for certs. Clarification Hamma?

[Hamma]

I am curious what the opinion on the matter is now a few months into the game.

If you had asked me pre-release I would have been 100% against it and wouldn't have changed my opinion. A bit after release now I don't think it's quite as huge of an issue since you have tons of people with lots of cert points anyway it gives new players a way to catch up.

[NeoStratiC]

It's an interesting idea, and I'm not completely against it. I would never personally buy them, but I could see the use of buying a pack of 50 certs or something like that to help boost a new character. Perhaps if it came with a "cooldown timer" on the amount purchased over time, I'd be for it.

[GraniteRok]

Absolutely no for buying certs with SC. Certs should be earned. What I wouldn't be opposed to is using SC to refund or get earned certs back and be able to be used elsewhere.

[Roy Awesome]

I don't like it at all. Non-weapon certs are balanced with the fact that they cannot be quickly earned. They are, in many cases, an upgrade from an un-certed version of that slot/weapon.

There are some fundamentals that I do not like being behind the cert wall (S-AMS, Flares), but allowing you to spend SC for certs would unlock the super OP things like Underbarrel launchers and the like.

[Hamma]

Absolutely no for buying certs with SC. Certs should be earned. What I wouldn't be opposed to is using SC to refund or get earned certs back and be able to be used elsewhere.

Interesting point, almost like a respec.

[Helwyr]

I don't think my opinion on anything design wise for Planetside has changed. All that was implemented that I thought was a bad choice on SOEs part prior and during to beta was merely reinforced in the reality of the live game. The cert/class system chiefly among them.

The only thing I can say in favor of this idea is that while I think it's bad, it's bad in an area of PS2 that's already so bad it doesn't make any difference. You're like someone asking me if you mind if you urinate on my living room floor... only after a dozen others have already shat on the carpet. I would have preferred you didn't, but what difference does it make?

[DirtyBird]

You do have an option to buy certs now anyway.
Its just that they restrict what you can spend them on (weapons).
So I dont see much difference in selling them outright.

And when I first read this I also thought you meant selling your own excess certs for cash.
I am sure there are a few at the top who are using certs just for the sake of it or have stock piles.

[Hamma]

I don't think my opinion on anything design wise for Planetside has changed. All that was implemented that I thought was a bad choice on SOEs part prior and during to beta was merely reinforced in the reality of the live game. The cert/class system chiefly among them.

The only thing I can say in favor of this idea is that while I think it's bad, it's bad in an area of PS2 that's already so bad it doesn't make any difference. You're like someone asking me if you mind if you urinate on my living room floor... only after a dozen others have already shat on the carpet. I would have preferred you didn't, but what difference does it make?
psst.. why are you here then? Are you even still playing? :P

[Brusi]

I don't really think it is necessary...

You can already buy a big enough advantage by up(side)grading your weapons.

Be interesting to hear how a new player feels about this though, starting from fresh and more than occasionally going up against players who have a clear advantage from having already got some aspects of the game maxxed out.

[GLaDOS]

Maniya brought up a good point about the way people complain so much when a weapon they buy gets nerfed. If they buy certs and an OP cert gets nerfed, the complaining will begin again, and it's frankly annoying.

I feel like it's a bad idea, but don't really have a reason why, so I'll stay undecided on it for now.

[Ghoest9]

A better idea would be to let people trade cert points to other players for station cash.

Im not recommending this - I just think its better than selling certs directly.

[BIGGByran]

Certification points would they sell them for station cash or some other means other than in game time/EXP??

They kinda already have this. EXP Boost with subscriptions and In game boosters.

[Bocheezu]

I think it's bad; it would cause a in-game population drop due to less people grinding out the certs.

[stargazer093]

if they can make the unlockable actual "tradeoffs" like they promised before then I`m for, otherwise no

[Helwyr]

psst.. why are you here then? Are you even still playing? :P

Well I was speaking of an aspect of Planetside, not the game as a whole. The cert/class system is only one aspect of the game. I'm certainly far from alone in thinking the "everyone can do everything" aspect of PS2 is pretty terrible. That said I rarely play PS2 now, and have reached the stage I enjoy talking about it more than playing.

[Sledgecrushr]

Well I was speaking of an aspect of Planetside, not the game as a whole. The cert/class system is only one aspect of the game. I'm certainly far from alone in thinking the "everyone can do everything" aspect of PS2 is pretty terrible. That said I rarely play PS2 now, and have reached the stage I enjoy talking about it more than playing.

I really enjoy being able to do everything. To me I feel involved in whats happening in the game. Plus being able to switch roles this game offers a wide range of activities from sitting in a snipers nest to flying a bomber.

Anyways I feel certs should be earned the old fashioned way, blood and sweat.

[Sturmhardt]

That would really be pay 2 win... So no, bad idea.

.sent via phone.

[Mox]

Buying certs? Thats p2w! Hell what i am talking about? This game is already p2w. SOE would just stop to hide it.

[Sirisian]

I don't really see the reason. You can already buy premium which gives an XP boost and then buy XP boosts on top of that. I guess if you were really really bad at the game and wanted stuff it might make sense, but someone that bad at the game probably isn't going to enjoy it with more certs.

Seems like we already have the ability to buy certs though. It's just tied to playing the game also at the same time which works really well.

[MaxDamage]

Say Noooooooooooo to pay-to-win.

[Canaris]

this is my definition of P2W, I wouldn't buy it

[Phreec]

<-- My avatar.

The game is already tipping towards P2W since you can buy better guns. It might not be as blatantly P2W as some F2P games are but you're still buying power with RL money. Certs are currently the only thing there to stop players from maxing out their characters solely with their wallets.

[SGTAce]

Nope. We had enought p2w rocket pods for jets.


btw. I haven't though about "selling certs" before. It's just naturally silly idea for me.
My first though about topic was "Who would like to sell certs?" :D

[ultimatox]

Absolutely not. New players can catch up by subscribing and getting boosts. Buying certs outright is not the way to go

[Rasui]

They kinda already have this. EXP Boost with subscriptions and In game boosters.

What I came in here to say.

Uh, they already are?

[Mastachief]

I think it would make good business sense for SOE but it would only fuel the P2win whiney babies which i could kinda see their point if this became the case. Only just but it's there and its a very slippery slope.

[Thunderhawk]

Some things just have to be kept in game only and not available for Station Cash, Certs (even though I would probably spend upwards of $200 on Certs if it were available) should remain an item only earnt through XP in game.

Boosters I can live with, as it still requires you to be online and play to get it, but just outright buying certs shouldn't be made available.

It's not sidegrades, a Light Assault needs certs to be able to use C4, without certs he can't use C4, with more certs he can use 2 X C4. That's not a side grade.

Also, Let's be honest, the game is about logging in to earn certs, cert farming is the main push for being online (I hope they change this soon) but currently it is. If you make certs available for SC, you have people maxing out their characters at BR1 and then what ? why carry on playing beyond 1-2 days (in game time) you'll get bored quickly.

One of the main incentives to get online at the moment for a lot of players is earning certs. Take that away with SC and you get the following:-

More revenue for SOE, but, huge turnover of players in game, so you better add some of that revenue into advertising.

[DhrRob]

If it would be selling your certs from SC I'd agree, so people who don't want to spend real money on the game, still can buy decorations.

The other way around would be an bad idea indeed.

[Fenrys]

I wish there were a subscription-only server where all players were given all certifications and all guns and could play on a level playing field.

That's kind of like 'buying certs'.

[Mordelicius]

If it brings more players in.
If it keeps more players in.
If it makes SOE happy.
If it doesn't upset the game balance.

Why not? Sounds like a win-win for both players and developers. As a player, I want the servers packed, with the biggest fights possible.

I could care less if they use Tobuscus or Seananners. That's why the Vanu is a face-palm, eschewing 2.5m+ youtube subscribers for an ESF spammer, who will be playing on the UES event nonetheless....

Look at what Seananners have done to Helios. He may have only played for 3 hours or so, but the burst of interest had resurrected NC population over there!

[psijaka]

Personally, I really don't like the idea of buying certs with SC, but, as others have mentioned, would it be really that much different to buying XP boosters?

No doubt it will be a quick way for SoE to get some money coming in, but I fear that it may have a negative impact upon the longevity of the game; if people can just buy everything they need, they will have no targets to aim for and the game will become stale. This is exactly why I would never buy an XP boost; I prefer to take my time over the game; looking forward to unlocking stuff earned through my efforts.

[Rolfski]

I understand where this idea is coming from. In the first months after release, you don't want people to throw money to instantly bypass others that have been grinding for it. That would be P2W for sure.
However, as the game gets older it becomes increasingly more daunting to new players, who feel they will never be able to catch up to a competitive level. And as this game surely needs a constant influx of new players, something must be done over time to give new characters ways to "get up to speed" without throwing off balance or making it P2W.

Being able to buy a (limited) amount of certs with SC as OP proposes, only available 6 months after release, could be an option I don't consider to be P2W but might rage other players.

Other ideas are:

Extreme XP boosts (200% XP for 5 days real play time, 2000 SC).
Limited to 1 per character for characters under BR 10 only, but tied to in-game play time. Playing up to BR 10 should give you enough time to decide if it's worth investing in this game and the 120 effective hours of double XP should be sufficient to quickly flesh out a character.
New player content
Regularly introducing new weapons, abilities and upgrade slots effectively resets the playing field where everybody has an equal shot to gain experience with them. It's one of the reason why devs should keep releasing new primary weapons and abilities.
Starter upgrade package
Only available 12 months after release, it provides basic optics, barrel attachments and rail attachments for the default stock weapons only. By then, I don't think many players will object that a new player can buy directly into his reflex 1x sight for his T9 Carv.
Expanding the stock arsenal
Introducing free stock vehicles/weapons and abilities from time to time might be a good incentive as part of a promotion to attract new players but also keeps the game fresh to players that don't want to invest in the game but play it a lot and therefore support it.


TL, DR: There are other ways to give new players a chance "to catch up".

[Tatwi]

Two things:

1. I would buy them.

2. I would subscribe for $15/m if being able to buy certs with SC was the only benefit of membership.

Why?

Time is money, friend! Seriously though, quality of life things like scopes and med kits tend to make the game feel "grindy", because one would like to have them sooner rather than later. "Earning" them in game is pretty meaningless too, given how one can simply tag along with ghost cappers and get lots of certs by doing nothing at all. Makes me laugh when people say certs need to be earned... Who cares?

[EVILPIG]

They should go with selling Cert Packages. All weapons can be bought anyways, might as well get in on that last niche to generate money.

[Baneblade]

Considering I already blew through 40000 SC on PS2 weapon unlocks, I support this too.

[Carver]

Earning XP and certs is a big part of the game's hook to keep people playing. Some players may jump at the chance to pay cash and buy an edge but I think they'd get tired of the game much faster and quit sooner.

And buying certs with cash makes earning XP and cert unlocks over time feel less like of an accomplishment and more like a waste of time for everyone else.

Even if the game made more money short term I think the idea is bad for the game in the long term. Just keep making and selling more goofy hats and hood ornaments.

[MrBloodworth]

So this was tossed around a bit and discussed quite a bit before beta. Certification points would they sell them for station cash or some other means other than in game time/EXP?

What is everyones thoughts on this sort of thing now that we are several months into the game?

Negative.

No go.

Do not Want.

[Emperor Newt]

If this would sudenly make the game "more pay2win", isn't there something broken with gamebalance already?

If the certs are a winning factor then it's already unbalanced as people with more time rank up more certs and therefore get better. And those most likely also use boosters (as "heavy users") so the time vs money argument doesn't apply here.
Also I really don't get the difference between unlocking SMGs or a Bolt Action Sniper Rifle in contrast to C4. Or Flak armor. They are all upgrades. And please don't tell me that weapons are only sidegrades... some of them clearly aren't. But at least here it's an equal field as you can spent certs as well as SC. In terms of certifications themselfs, it's not possible.

So if (concerning certs) we already have "play2win" in the game (it has to be, otherwise it could not become "pay2win"), would adding "pay2win" even it out?

Currently "good" players (often it has not much to do with skill, just doing what farms the most certs) already have an advantage people with less time cannot keep up with.
So, why not giving them an opportunity to do so?

Would the game benefit from it? Would the game be hurt from it? How does it impact the overall experience from everybody? Does it impact other players at all?
I think these are the import questions to ask. But most response are simply: I had to play for it so others have to do so too or: It's bad.
That's not helping. That's nonesense.

[Brusi]

I think it's bad; it would cause a in-game population drop due to less people grinding out the certs.

Wow, that's a really good point... i didn't even think of that!

[NewSith]

I say thee nay...


Pure pay to win, considering current certcosts.

[Soothsayer]

I don't think it would make very much of a difference at this point.

You can only play one class at a time.

I wouldn't care and I would consider purchasing some. I play infantry only so I don't have the kind of cert points a dedicated lib gunner earned "the hard way".

[Illtempered]

Let's just sell our Planetside souls while we're at it.

NO

[Hamma]

:lol:

[Takoita]

I'd be against it. Maybe if we'd be allowed to exchange our certs for SC in turn, but if it's one-side only, I'm firmly against it.

[robocpf1]

Well, how many certs do you need to actually be competitive? In some games, like EVE Online, where there are so many simultaneous things your skillpoints affect, I buy the whole "you'll never catch up" argument.

In PS2 though, there are a limited amount of certs you benefit from at any single point in time. I could throw 10,000 certs at my Lightning, and all of those become useless the second I exit the vehicle and grab my rifle. Then, I might be at the mercy of a free player that put some certs into Nanoweave, a weapon scope, foregrip, and high velocity ammo. All of my certs ended up useless because the situation I was in changed.

Playing for longer gives you more options across a variety of situations, but in any one situation, there's a pretty low threshold of certs you need to be "competitive". The really massive cert purchases give you that slight edge the devs were talking about (less than 15%, power wise).

If you could buy certs, however, that means you would also be "buying" power items like C4, mines, better armor, and upgraded abilities. These are things you can use in addition to weapons - which yes, you can buy, but you can only use one weapon at a time and the stock weapons are very usable, especially if you put a few certs into them (some vehicle weapons notwithstanding).

I say no to buying certs. A purchasable respec I have no issue with, because you're trading in certs you have specced for certs in other specs, it's a trade-off. Actually purchasing new certs with real money, however, isn't something I would support.

[mrmrmrj]

Just let us buy a re-cert token.

As far as buying certs outright, SOE already offers this is in a way. My subscription gives me accelerated offline and online cert gains. I would argue that the best economic solution for SOE would be to encourage more subs and boosting cert gain for subs is a good way to do that.

[Rothnang]

I think it would be a terrible idea to sell certs for station cash.

If you buy the weapons you want with station cash you already save yourself thousands of certs, so you have a massive advantage there.

If you buy boosters you gain certs a lot quicker, so you can already spend money on more certs.

What you shouldn't be able to do is spend your way out of having to work for things, because gaining those certs and being rewarded for your efforts that way is a big part of the games incentive structure.

XP rewards matter, because they are what guides peoples behavior in certain ways. I think its important to keep XP relevant to all players.

[Eliphas]

Worst idea ever. It would take away from the game more then anything. Hell why even play at all. Maybe its just me but I like the grind, the carrot on the stick. Just seems another way to cater to the casual gamers then the ones that devote their free time to the hobby of gaming. I would have much rather had a pay to play then the dependents of the one time sale of an item to fund the development of this game. So I am sure that this sort of thing is a vary real concept and it is the worst idea next to limiting the infiltrator to just a pistol.