Resources - purposeless

[ringring]

I've given my opinion of resources previously and this is why from an actual example.

I logged in and went to Esamir - with full resources.

TR was losing ouw last outpost (and had 15% pop) so myself and a couple of outfit mates went to defend. I pulled a prowler.

But, too many NC in armour and air and I couldn't get anywhere, I lost my tank to an A2G reaver.

We lost the outpost.

I pulled a lighning and returned. We won the outpost back but I lost the lightning.

We attacked Jaegers Crossing and had quite a nice fight actually.

I pulled a sundy but lost it to an NC tank.

At this point I had ended up in the warpgate, wanting to rejoin the fight at Jaegers but niether me and my outfit mate had used all our vehicles resources.

We simply decided we had to go to a different continent to replenish. And actually I went afk in the WG hopefully replenishing while I was doing something out entirely.

Honwestly, nothing would come to harm if resources were removed entirely.

[Assist]

Agreed, it's also the reason I think resources should have been revamped in January or ASAP. If they re-do them to make them matter then it's going to change the balance of the game. If they remove them completely it just takes away another element that could have made Planetside 2 more indepth and involved. IMO, resources could have been redone so that they made territory matter quite a bit more. Right now territory only matters so you can fill up your infantry consumables, I really hope they take them a step farther and make them important to the meta game. I think that if they do that however it will change the balance of the game dramatically, similar to what the changes to render distance do to balance.

[Kerrec]

I've already suggested this elwewhere, but I think it works here too.

My suggestion is to create a new Loadout that can't be altered. I'd call it Loadout 0 (zero).

Then I would allow people to pull UNCERTED vehicles, (IE: Loadout 0) for no resource cost from Warpgates (and only from Warpgates). Timers still apply.

The game would default to pull Loadout 1, and use up resources if you have any available. But if you don't have enough resources, then you get a bone stock vehicle. Pretty much useless for Sunderers, but a stock MBT, Lightning, ESF, Liberator is better than nothing.

[ringring]

Agreed, it's also the reason I think resources should have been revamped in January or ASAP. If they re-do them to make them matter then it's going to change the balance of the game. If they remove them completely it just takes away another element that could have made Planetside 2 more indepth and involved. IMO, resources could have been redone so that they made territory matter quite a bit more. Right now territory only matters so you can fill up your infantry consumables, I really hope they take them a step farther and make them important to the meta game. I think that if they do that however it will change the balance of the game dramatically, similar to what the changes to render distance do to balance.

At the moment rsrouces add no depth whatsoever, they are simply another form of timer.

[Mietz]

At the moment rsrouces add no depth whatsoever, they are simply another form of timer.

Yes, thats why fellow beta-testers called for either-or, not both.

But when we said "resources have no purpose" the developers read "auraxium has no purpose" and thats how we never got this resolved.

Resource-play can only work if the system underlying it is structured like an RTS (or grand strategy). If you can't bleed the opponent dry, you might as well not have resources in the first place.

The current system is only there as a limiter for individuals not empires and as such doesn't need to be there at all. Timers fulfill that function just fine.

If we ever get the grand strategy play, -then- timers should be removed and the system switched to resources as it fulfills both functions of personal and empire limiter.

[Rahabib]

agreed. However SOE has stated they want people to infinitely spawn their vehicle of choice - so resources will always remain meaningless.

The only way to make resources do something, and add something to the metagame is make resources a limited commodity. Empires need the ability to shut off resources to make them valuable.

http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/resources-making-the-hex-system-better.74988/

[Ghodere]

Resources can be limiting in the current system, but they are always meaningless. Consider that, when you're warpgated, it takes two hours to accumulate enough mech resources for a MBT. That's limiting as hell, we just need to find a way to make them not be either completely irrelevant or crippling, and never anything else.

[Tatwi]

Engineers who place a lot of stuff in busy locations are the only people who notice the resource system. Uncerted vehicle lockout timers are more than enough time to make back the resources for the vehicle.

In the end, they really add nothing to the game and no one cares. May as well remove them and just put a timer on resupplying consumables (that can be certed down per item).

[Redshift]

Timers do the job, resources are pointless

[Emperor Newt]

But when we said "resources have no purpose" the developers read "auraxium has no purpose" and thats how we never got this resolved.
Well, Auraxium had absolutely no purpose. The others at least could have. So we have to give them that.

[Canaris]

maybe for vehicles being pulled from the warp gate area but infantry resources are an absolute necessity imho.

[Wahooo]

Resource-play can only work if the system underlying it is structured like an RTS (or grand strategy). If you can't bleed the opponent dry, you might as well not have resources in the first place.

The current system is only there as a limiter for individuals not empires and as such doesn't need to be there at all. Timers fulfill that function just fine.

If we ever get the grand strategy play, -then- timers should be removed and the system switched to resources as it fulfills both functions of personal and empire limiter.

This. But since we are no where near having any kind of true grand strategy the resources are moot.

[Wahooo]

maybe for vehicles being pulled from the warp gate area but infantry resources are an absolute necessity imho.

Its a nice thought but doesn't everyone pull air from the WG anyway... or mostly?

[Calisai]

Even if Resources were needed and necessary, the current system rewards the victors and punishes defenders... the more you are pushed towards your warpgate, the less resources you are getting, to the point where it will snowball.

Which is fine if we had a continent meta-game. As it stands right now, it makes it prohibitive to push back out once you've run out of resources. Causing population shift back to the stalemated conts (indar) to replenish resources over time.

I think there should be dynamic resource costs... IE, the farther you are from warpgate, the more it costs... and would cost nothing to pull from warpgate. (timers still apply to limit amount you pull from WG).

[Rahabib]

Even if Resources were needed and necessary, the current system rewards the victors and punishes defenders... the more you are pushed towards your warpgate, the less resources you are getting, to the point where it will snowball.

In my proposal, I account for manufacturing (which is the timer) be tied to populations. If your empire is out zerged, you have few people you are supplying resources for, thus can pump out vehicles/supplies at a faster rate as long as you can hold on to some resources. This helps balance the popuations better as well. If you want to farm in your air, pick a continent that you dont have a 20% population advantage on.

I think there should be dynamic resource costs... IE, the farther you are from warpgate, the more it costs... and would cost nothing to pull from warpgate. (timers still apply to limit amount you pull from WG).

I feel this way as well.

[ringring]

In my proposal, I account for manufacturing (which is the timer) be tied to populations. If your empire is out zerged, you have few people you are supplying resources for, thus can pump out vehicles/supplies at a faster rate as long as you can hold on to some resources. This helps balance the popuations better as well. If you want to farm in your air, pick a continent that you dont have a 20% population advantage on.



I feel this way as well.

My issue is stuff like this at best add complications but doesn't add much depth if any.

And this is already a very complicated game, all the weapons and certs and base and outpost layouts, to such an extent that there is a high entry barrier.

Any new content should first pass the test of being simple but adding to depth.

I exclude adding new weapons to this since they are obviously a means to generate needed revenue.

[PoisonTaco]

Resources should be allocated to bases instead of players. Each facility, tower and outpost should have a finite number of resources which are gained by connection to other owned territories.

Say a Tech Plant has 20,000 Mechanized resources. You can only pull x number of tanks before it's depleted. If depleted you can't pull out any vehicles. Having something like that would make resources a lot more important by turning them into a shared resources.

But hey that's how I'd do it. You could still pull any vehicle you want so long as you're not on cooldown, but you may have to go further and further back. Maybe even have a resource pool back at the warpgate (much larger, but still finite).

[Rothnang]

I think resources should just be removed. They obviously don't serve to make vehicles or consumables rare, everyone spams all of those at their leisure.

Instead of having a resource system where resources flow to the warp gate we should have a logistics system where consumables etc. need to flow from the warpgate to the area you're fighting in. That would strengthen macro strategy a lot. Right now it's completely irrelevant if your infantry zerg in a biolab gets cut off, it's just happy farming. If you actually ran out of respawns, vehicle ammo etc. if you're fighting while completely surrounded, and the only way to get more without a land connection is through transport vehicles it would make the game a lot deeper, and give small forces a way to bust up a big zerg just by cutting its supply lines.

[Wahooo]

Resources should be allocated to bases instead of players. Each facility, tower and outpost should have a finite number of resources which are gained by connection to other owned territories.

Say a Tech Plant has 20,000 Mechanized resources. You can only pull x number of tanks before it's depleted. If depleted you can't pull out any vehicles. Having something like that would make resources a lot more important by turning them into a shared resources.

But hey that's how I'd do it. You could still pull any vehicle you want so long as you're not on cooldown, but you may have to go further and further back. Maybe even have a resource pool back at the warpgate (much larger, but still finite).

OH... and each base could have a silo that stored the resource energy... lets call them "Nanites"... and the every time a vehicle was pulled, or troop would respawn a very small amount of the resource would be pulled from the silo. You could also make things like base turrets and generators really slowly auto-repair by using small amounts of this resource pool. In order to replace the resources in the silo they could have a specific vehicle that you would have to charge up or "fill" at the warp gate and drive or somehow carry... you know in the small vehicle spot in the galaxy that isn't actually usable but looks like it is there for some odd reason. Anyway, this is another way that a stalemate at a truly defensible base could be broken is when they run out of the resource pool inside the silo... Or it would add the ability for last minute heroics re-filling the silo under heavy fire and the presence of enemy forces.

Crazy talk I guess I don't see how a system like that could actually be implemented. /fantasy

[Rahabib]

My issue is stuff like this at best add complications but doesn't add much depth if any.

And this is already a very complicated game, all the weapons and certs and base and outpost layouts, to such an extent that there is a high entry barrier.

Any new content should first pass the test of being simple but adding to depth.

I exclude adding new weapons to this since they are obviously a means to generate needed revenue.

The manufacturing aspect really isn't complicated. If you have a high population, the cool down timer is longer. If you have a low population the timer is shorter. You could even see those numbers on the continent map very easy.

Regions I admit would be difficult to explain, but then again, who the hell knows how many resources each hex region gets even now??!! In fact, regions would actually be easier to explain. Lose the tech plant lose ability to spawn tanks as fast. its a single base for a single resource. Thats much easier to explain than whatever the hell we have now.

[Sirisian]

As mentioned this is in the roadmap (http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/may-resource-revamp.83018/) for the end of May.

Lot of discussion about supply line resource models like PoisonTaco mentioned with the PS1 model. I personally don't think they'd work in PS2.


The game would default to pull Loadout 1, and use up resources if you have any available. But if you don't have enough resources, then you get a bone stock vehicle. Pretty much useless for Sunderers, but a stock MBT, Lightning, ESF, Liberator is better than nothing.
That is discussed heavily. We had thread here on PSU about such models. I wrote up one implementation of the universal playstyle resource sink (http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/may-resource-revamp.83018/page-2#post-1091705) as I call it over at the forums in a simplified format. It's identical to your model of certs costing resources such that players build their loadouts without restrictions. (I kept the class system for simplicity since I honestly doubt they'll ever get rid of it even with a resource model to restrict players).

Even if Resources were needed and necessary, the current system rewards the victors and punishes defenders... the more you are pushed towards your warpgate, the less resources you are getting, to the point where it will snowball.
Completely solved in the above model in the link using a loyalty based system.

[Rahabib]

The sad thing is if SOE started using resources wisely it could solve a lot of balance issues. You can have vehicles that's OP but, instead of reducing it'd functionality, increase resources so it's not used as much. This way you can have terrifying vehicles buy only spawn so often. Right now it's a game of rock paper scizzors where nobody wins.

[OCNSethy]

I agree with the thrust of this post. I dont mind taking potiential high reward risks as infantry but with resources as they are, I have to think twice doing that in any armour.

I tend to think resources hold you back when you are really needed.

[psijaka]

Agree that the resource system is pretty broken now.

When I choose where to fight I'll be thinking:
"TI Alloys, be sure of a good infantry fight there", or if I'm thinking more strategically:
"If we attack the Pallisade, then we'll cut off the VS zerg threatening the Impact Site."

But I never ever think:
"If we capture Zurvan, we'll get X amout of extra infantry resources".

something pretty radical needs to be done; not sure what the answer is though.

[Riekopo]

The whole game is pointless because there's no metagame. It's just a bigger Battlefield.

[Elgareth]

The whole game is pointless because there's no metagame. It's just a bigger Battlefield.

Not that ANY game is any less pointless :D It's all about wasting time while having fun in the end ;)

To Topic:
I agree that ressources are rather useless currently... or the way they are distributet. I only lack Mech Ressources, and only when I frequently pull an AMS Sundy to capture some contested area. But whenever I do, I don't think "Oh, we should capture a +mech Base to get more ressources... I just go on foot for the next ~5 spawns, and when I return I got enough to pull another Sundy.
There is no tactical thought involved when thinking of ressources, currently it's just annoying to not have enough.

The suggestions put here all sound better than the current system, let's hope May will bring salvation.

[Sir B Smythe]

OH... and each base could have a silo that stored the resource energy... lets call them "Nanites"... and the every time a vehicle was pulled, or troop would respawn a very small amount of the resource would be pulled from the silo. You could also make things like base turrets and generators really slowly auto-repair by using small amounts of this resource pool. In order to replace the resources in the silo they could have a specific vehicle that you would have to charge up or "fill" at the warp gate and drive or somehow carry... you know in the small vehicle spot in the galaxy that isn't actually usable but looks like it is there for some odd reason. Anyway, this is another way that a stalemate at a truly defensible base could be broken is when they run out of the resource pool inside the silo... Or it would add the ability for last minute heroics re-filling the silo under heavy fire and the presence of enemy forces.

Crazy talk I guess I don't see how a system like that could actually be implemented. /fantasy

That is just ridiculous, of course it couldn't be implemented, I don't know how you could have come by such a crazy idea.

[Babyfark McGeez]

Besides the obvious, taking the (working) resource system of Planetside 1 and, if deemed necessary, tweaking/improving it for Planetside 2, i thnk one thing is quite clear:

Resources for pulling Vehicles/Aircraft should not be player-based, but rather faction-, or location-based.

Imo that would add a whole new level of "metagame" and put a higher emphasis on defending and controlling terrain.

[Rahabib]

Besides the obvious, taking the (working) resource system of Planetside 1 and, if deemed necessary, tweaking/improving it for Planetside 2, i thnk one thing is quite clear:

Resources for pulling Vehicles/Aircraft should not be player-based, but rather faction-, or location-based.

Imo that would add a whole new level of "metagame" and put a higher emphasis on defending and controlling terrain.

The only problem with having resources faction based instead of player based is that you will have larger clans eat up all the resources and people will rush to spawn vehicles.

I think player based resources are fine, but there needs to be metagame elements tied to how players gather them. This way, if you want to use vehicles/supplies - there is clear cut objective to get them. Right now there are not objectives to gather resources.

[Babyfark McGeez]

The only problem with having resources faction based instead of player based is that you will have larger clans eat up all the resources and people will rush to spawn vehicles....

Good point. I would prefer "location based" anyways. Like, shocking, the (working) system of PS1.

I still believe switching from "player-based" to "location based" would be the right way though, and it would open up more gameplay possibilities (this "metagame" we keep hearing about).

[Mechzz]

OH... and each base could have a silo that stored the resource energy... lets call them "Nanites"... and the every time a vehicle was pulled, or troop would respawn a very small amount of the resource would be pulled from the silo. You could also make things like base turrets and generators really slowly auto-repair by using small amounts of this resource pool. In order to replace the resources in the silo they could have a specific vehicle that you would have to charge up or "fill" at the warp gate and drive or somehow carry... you know in the small vehicle spot in the galaxy that isn't actually usable but looks like it is there for some odd reason. Anyway, this is another way that a stalemate at a truly defensible base could be broken is when they run out of the resource pool inside the silo... Or it would add the ability for last minute heroics re-filling the silo under heavy fire and the presence of enemy forces.

Crazy talk I guess I don't see how a system like that could actually be implemented. /fantasy

hehe. I see what you did there.

Agreed that current resource design is useless. The alternates in this thread (and more!) were discussed ad nauseam in beta, but the devs weren't for budging.

Really, resources need to be made "active" somehow so you have to do something useful to get them, not just sitting watching them tick up until you can pull a tank/esf/whatever.

[ringring]

On reflection I wonder whether the devs would be (nearly) in agreement with this thread.

When resources were first mooted prior to beta most people (I mean me) thought, fine, resources are the PS2's equivalent of caves and base benefits.

However, they didn't have the same impact.

Then of course, benefits were added to the game, and I really mean Tech Benefit. This addition has arguable been one of the best changes to the game that happened.

The Tech Benefit means that ownership of Tech Plants actually matters. I know my outfit regularly with go and resecure hacks on Tech Plants. This is an ideal improvement to the intra-continental met game, we defend it and resecure it because it's valuable in it's own right and not because of an XP award.


Now, if only the base benefits for the other bases could be as influential.
- health boost
- armour boost ... etc

[Rahabib]

Good point. I would prefer "location based" anyways. Like, shocking, the (working) system of PS1.

I still believe switching from "player-based" to "location based" would be the right way though, and it would open up more gameplay possibilities (this "metagame" we keep hearing about).

while I certainly feel location based resources is better than faction based, I still think individual resources would work just fine as long as the objectives for gaining resources were clearly defined within the metagame.

If you want to drive tanks a lot, make sure the tech plants are secure. If you want infantry resources, capture bio labs. This way it make sense to take and defend these. I think especially for the larger clans this gives sub objectives to the game other than turn everything your faction's color. Smaller clans can also play a role in bleeding resources by capturing smaller outposts but also join in the zerg for the larger bases as well.

Resources need to be restricted to narrowly defined locations, and useful well defined commodity.

Then from there, we can talk about adding additional balancing to resources as I have outlined in my proposal (http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/resources-making-the-hex-system-better.74988/) (timers - manufacturing, etc.) but I think we can all agree that resources do not have a defined objective in the game.