So This Is How You Treat Us SOE?

[Riekopo]

I've spent probably $300 on Planetside 2. I was in the beta and Alpha Squad. I've logged over 7 days of play time. I joined a Planetside 2 focused clan. I participated in the UES event. Now that my loyalty and PS2 credentials are out of the way let's discuss business ethics. Like many other players I bought a number of camouflages in the last few months. I bought the ones I did because they matched the colors of the continent I was fighting on. I have a set of armor, weapon, and vehicle camo for each continent. These cosmetic items were not cheap, but because I like PS2 so much I decided to buy them anyway.

Now here is where we have a problem with questionable business ethics. In Game Update 2 you changed how some if not all of my camouflages looked. Whether intentional or not is irrelevant. Camouflage that was natural looking and muted has become extremely saturated and vibrant. Where once I blended into the background I now stand out like a sore thumb. You changed how cosmetic items looked after I bought them. THEY ARE COSMETIC ITEMS, WE BOUGHT THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE BECAUSE OF HOW THEY LOOKED!. So logically I then proceeded to submit a support ticket to see if this issue could be resolved. I don't think it was unreasonable for me to request some form of refund whether in game or not of my purchases. Here is their response:

"Greetings,

Thank you for contacting PlanetSide 2 in-game support, I am Operative Chip.

Thanks for your report! We are already aware of the Sunderer horn issue and we have been able to verify it ourselves. Our Support team is currently working out a solution to this problem and a fix will be released as soon as a solution is found. In regards to your Camouflage request, we are unable to refund anything that has been changed by a recent update. If you would like to submit feedback about the game itself, you can use the /feedback command in-game or open the feedback window under the Options tab. You can also visit the forums to voice your opinion. Check out the link below.

[PS2] Forums
http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php

Operative Chip
PlanetSide 2
Sony Online Entertainment"

[DirtyBird]

Do we have any before and after shots?

[TheSaltySeagull]

I haven't noticed any changes to camo but I dont really pay much attention to it. However the response you got was expected and understandable to a degree. This is an MMO and things will change. Its unrealistic to expect them to refund SC every time they alter something considering how often that occurs. Its also inline with how other companies run things with similar cash shops. In LoL you buy champions for about the same amount you buy weapons in PS2. And naturally those champions go through buff and nerf cycles. Riot does not refund your RP for champions that are changed(at least not often).

I feel for you but honestly this is how cash shops work in most games. Refunds based on items being changed are rare. At best they might offer a refund if they SIGNIFICANTLY change something to the point that it has a major game play impact. But I dont know if camo changes fit that. I am not trying to defend SOE I am just saying this is how the business is carried out and its not unique to SOE. Most online cash shops work like this. This is one of the downsides to using cash shops.

[Riekopo]

I haven't noticed any changes to camo but I dont really pay much attention to it. However the response you got was expected and understandable to a degree. This is an MMO and things will change. Its unrealistic to expect them to refund SC every time they alter something considering how often that occurs. Its also inline with how other companies run things with similar cash shops. In LoL you buy champions for about the same amount you buy weapons in PS2. And naturally those champions go through buff and nerf cycles. Riot does not refund your RP for champions that are changed(at least not often).

I feel for you but honestly this is how cash shops work in most games. Refunds based on items being changed are rare. At best they might offer a refund if they SIGNIFICANTLY change something to the point that it has a major game play impact. But I dont know if camo changes fit that. I am not trying to defend SOE I am just saying this is how the business is carried out and its not unique to SOE. Most online cash shops work like this. This is one of the downsides to using cash shops.

I've never seen players buy tons of cosmetic items and then have all of them altered. There is literally no reason to buy cosmetic items if they think it's ok to change how they look after everyone bought them. They ruined the existing camos and released better camos. It was completely blatant.

[Koadster]

Ive experienced this too.

Temperate Forest being the most annoying. It was a excellent macro pattern that blended with Indar and Amerish nicely.. Now its as fluro as Jungle forest.

I might send a support ticket about this, its like sending my dark blue car in for a service and it comes out sky blue. Maybe atleast give a trade in for the new better camos (SOEs market scheme for PS2 is clear now; Release initial content then release better stuff later, Camo being the newest kick to the guts in this regard, my 8000SC will now sit in my wallet because I know I will be buying content that will be heavily altered in the future including/particularly cosmetics!!!)

I will post pics but Auraxis is night atm, so pics wont show the complaint

[Ironside]

Ive experienced this too.

Temperate Forest being the most annoying. It was a excellent macro pattern that blended with Indar and Amerish nicely.. Now its as fluro as Jungle forest.

I might send a support ticket about this, its like sending my dark blue car in for a service and it comes out sky blue. Maybe atleast give a trade in for the new better camos (SOEs market scheme for PS2 is clear now; Release initial content then release better stuff later, Camo being the newest kick to the guts in this regard, my 8000SC will now sit in my wallet because I know I will be buying content that will be heavily altered in the future including/particularly cosmetics!!!)

I will post pics but Auraxis is night atm, so pics wont show the complaint

they could at least offer a free camo of your choice if your old camo has been drastically changed..
Post a few pics i've not noticed the changes

[Elgareth]

they could at least offer a free camo of your choice if your old camo has been drastically changed..
Post a few pics i've not noticed the changes

Take the camo away, refund the SC, so people are free to buy them again if they still want them, or buy other ones.
I haven't seen old/new versions, but it sounds like the old camos were changed to being completely useless, so that would probably be fair...
Or at least refund 1/2 or 3/4 of the SC and let them keep the Camos...

[psijaka]

A cautionary tale this; thanks for posting. I was thinking of getting some camo; don't think that I'll bother now.

[Koadster]

Heres some pics, I dont have great pics of the before because well I wasnt planning on the camo being changed. Also PSU auto reshaped the pics so the camo variance cant be seen as good which sucks because after looking at the images small they dont look hugely different so ive posted direct links to larger sized one

Heres the before pic on a prowler:
http://s5.postimage.org/6bt24lomv/Tem_camo2.png
LARGER SIZE PIC (http://s5.postimage.org/6bt24lomv/Tem_camo2.png)

Now after update:
http://s5.postimage.org/60blru86v/Planet_Side2_2013_02_15_21_34_26_58.png
LARGER SIZE PIC (http://s5.postimage.org/60blru86v/Planet_Side2_2013_02_15_21_34_26_58.png)

Notice how the colours are now more vibrant, the green sticks out like a sore thumb now. The tan is as bright as the desert camo sundie in the old pic, were as the old camo was more faded tan-brown. Before the camo was slightly washed out which gave it such good blending qualities. Ive hid from many a reaver on Amerish thanks to the camo

The real kicker for me was the lighting, my fav vehicle.
Heres the before pic, if you take color samples from the background they match the camo well

http://s5.postimage.org/5c7cmmyuv/Tem_camo1.png
LARGER SIZE PIC (http://s5.postimage.org/5c7cmmyuv/Tem_camo1.png)

Now the lighting post update.

http://s5.postimage.org/d67y816nr/Planet_Side2_2013_02_15_21_35_22_79.png
LARGER SIZE PIC (http://s5.postimage.org/d67y816nr/Planet_Side2_2013_02_15_21_35_22_79.png)

http://s5.postimage.org/hkgfjvh87/Planet_Side2_2013_02_15_21_35_31_19.png
LARGER SIZE PIC (http://s5.postimage.org/hkgfjvh87/Planet_Side2_2013_02_15_21_35_31_19.png)

Thank godness that the logos havent been messed with (YET)... Redheads :love:

http://s5.postimage.org/5er89h2if/Planet_Side2_2013_02_15_21_35_38_40.png

TLDR: I bought Temperate Forest for genuinely camoflauge ability. Its now been altered so the product I purchased is no longer functioning as intended when I bought it.

[Eggy]

If you look in the premium/preview section of the shop you can see why this has been done.

They are hoping to sell lots of new camos, specificaly targetted at specific conts and areas on those conts. They are not likely to sell lots of new camos if all the old ones we had were still effective.

I too had 5 cammos for my tanks that I swapped in an out of too blend in and they all got much brighter. This is especialy noticeable on stuff like the alpha squad / zebra camos.

[Baneblade]

I've noticed the camo changes, but haven't really seen any difference in the way the enemy reacts to me... as in they don't, until they realize I'm a tank they can't see on radar.

[NewSith]

I've spent probably $300 on Planetside 2.

Technically, since the game is F2P and "doesn't have" any pay2win, the amount of money you have spent doesn't give you any priority over those who have not spent a cent/penny.


No offense intended, just saying. That's what their official answer will be. This can be interpreted as "we already have your 300$ and you agreed to EULA (that includes a paragraph about changes), so we don't really care"

[ChipMHazard]

First off: Yarr, I be liking ye Blackbeard Jolly Roger.

While I do agree that certain things are expected to be changed in an MMO, like weapon stats, I do not believe that exclusively purchasable cosmetic items should be changed unless there's a gameplay reason to do so, like say if a camo made you invisible because of a bug.
If they change, like they have done now, a piece of camo for no apparent reason then they should give out refunds, since the camo is no longer the same as when you purchased it.
Their reasoning for not doing so, while within their rights, might end up making players not purchase camos since you never know when they might change it. Of course I don't think enough people will care about it and simply continue to purchase camos, as such I doubt SOE will actually care enough to give out refunds.

By all means keep hitting up their support and the devs on twitter if you can.

Edit: Also I am not affiliated with that Chip.

[Qwan]

I have to agree with the Unaffiliated Chip on this one, if the cammo pattern doesnt cause a bug were you character goes invisible, then then they may be able to say no refund. I feel the same way about weapons though, If I bought a rocket launcher that could take a tank down to half damage, then they up and change it to a quarter damage, Its not the same weapon I bought in the first place. But if you read in the agrement you checked off on Im sure its in there somewere saying that they can change the stats of certain weapons, vehicles, and cammo, that have been purchased and are not liable to anyone.

[psijaka]

Noticed a particularly lurid Prowler at Hvar yesterday, just like the "after" screenshot a few posts above. "Why on earth would someone draw attention to themselves like that?" I thought to myself, as I reached for my launcher....some camoflage!

[Canaris]

Noticed a particularly lurid Prowler at Hvar yesterday, just like the "after" screenshot a few posts above. "Why on earth would someone draw attention to themselves like that?" I thought to myself, as I reached for my launcher....some camoflage!

that'll be for Hossin ;)
I did notice some more vibrant colours on some of my camo, tho most of the ones I bought are still muted and blend well into the back round.
Jungle camo is the most cruel on the eye imo and makes me a little queasy to look at, going to be funny in the jungle swamp when everything looks like that.

[Satanam]

I won't ask for a refund, but it would be nice if they just change it back to how it was before.

P.S.: how do you still have this high-quality textures? After GU2, all my textures are now crap plus the change on colors for camos. And yes, it's all set to 'High'. I don't know what happened, but now they're pixelated as hell and it was not this way before GU2.

[Riekopo]

I won't ask for a refund, but it would be nice if they just change it back to how it was before.

P.S.: how do you still have this high-quality textures? After GU2, all my textures are now crap plus the change on colors for camos. And yes, it's all set to 'High'. I don't know what happened, but now they're pixelated as hell and it was not this way before GU2.

They're actually not my pics, but someones from the official forum.

[Koadster]

I won't ask for a refund, but it would be nice if they just change it back to how it was before.

P.S.: how do you still have this high-quality textures? After GU2, all my textures are now crap plus the change on colors for camos. And yes, it's all set to 'High'. I don't know what happened, but now they're pixelated as hell and it was not this way before GU2.

Are you talking about my pics of the lighting and prowler? If so my game is set to ultra.

[Canaris]

I won't ask for a refund, but it would be nice if they just change it back to how it was before.

P.S.: how do you still have this high-quality textures? After GU2, all my textures are now crap plus the change on colors for camos. And yes, it's all set to 'High'. I don't know what happened, but now they're pixelated as hell and it was not this way before GU2.

you can knock up the graphics setting up to Ultra still in the useroptions file of the Planetside folder, it can actually be beneficial to your FPS as well.

good thread about here http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/switched-from-low-settings-to-ultra-now-getting-2x-fps.88706/

[Ghoest9]

@ OP

You apparently didnt know it - but before the patch your camo already looked drastically different to different people based on what graphics setting they used.

All that really changed is some graphics seeting now look like other ones from before.


Honestly its not a new isue at all - you should have known better.

[Figment]

I've never seen players buy tons of cosmetic items and then have all of them altered. There is literally no reason to buy cosmetic items if they think it's ok to change how they look after everyone bought them. They ruined the existing camos and released better camos. It was completely blatant.

My expectation of an appropriate way with updating a camo that was already in existence, would be a refund in station cash for anyone who already purchased it before. And of course communicating this has been done:


Consequence:

Client doesn't lose money to an investment they didn't want to make.
SOE doesn't lose invested money, since Station Cash is already purchased.

[Riekopo]

@ OP

You apparently didnt know it - but before the patch your camo already looked drastically different to different people based on what graphics setting they used.

All that really changed is some graphics seeting now look like other ones from before.


Honestly its not a new isue at all - you should have known better.

What you just said makes absolutely no sense at all.

[Ghoest9]

Do you speak English as a second language?

Im deciding whether to explain this in really small words or if i just just laugh at you.

[Riekopo]

Do you speak English as a second language?

Im deciding whether to explain this in really small words or if i just just laugh at you.

Now you're insulting me? Nice, good community representative here.

[Ghoest9]

I was only maybe insulting you(edit: Insulting isnt the word I would choose - but i would certainly agree with "belittling what you said").

If you werent well versed in English I would have been happy to break it down using different words.

But ya since apparently thats not the issue - the entire original issue was you not understanding the significance of graphics setting and their effects and your at fault for still not understanding after I explained it.

To be honest im guessing you did understand - but you dont want accept that your original post was silly.

[MrBloodworth]

I'm going to guess that the images feed to the shader for camos was what was changed to Atlas to remove the 60mb of video memory. This Atlasing likely created color shifts do to palatalization during DXT5 compression.

Lastly, asking for a refund due to some color changes? How petty can you be? Its not like they completely changed to pastel or something. Looks to me it moved in some cases about 20 to 30 points in HEX value.

[Riekopo]

I'm going to guess that the images feed to the shader for camos was what was changed to Atlas to remove the 60mb of video memory. This Atlasing likely created color shifts do to palatalization during DXT5 compression.

Lastly, asking for a refund due to some color changes? How petty can you be? Its not like they completely changed to pastel or something. Looks to me it moved in some cases about 20 to 30 points in HEX value.

TomaHawk from the official forum:

Yea, who are we, the players that keep business in business, to expect them to do right by their customers? Awful expectation, really. I mean, next thing you know, you'll expect other MMOs to refund skill points or start providing fair customer service to their players in some stupid attempt at keeping them around. Preposterous!

I guess it's impossible for SOE to leave the purchased camo in the game for those players who bought it, then adding (vs changing) a new camo while removing the original from the menu?

[Riekopo]

I replied to Chip and received another charming response:

Chip,

I am not asking for a cash refund of the camouflage. All I'm asking for is a Station Cash refund of the camouflage that was changed. I purchased the camouflage, a cosmetic item, because of the way it looked. Game Update 2 changed the way it looked drastically, making it extremely bright and saturated. I purchased an armor, weapon, and vehicle camouflage set for each continent. That's a lot of money for cosmetic items. I would never have bought them if I had known that the aesthetics would be changed after purchase. I don't think my request is unreasonable, do you? I can show you before and after shots if you like. The change is drastic.

Best

Response:

Hello

Thank you for responding, this is Operative Ghrutz. I can assure you that the camouflage itself has not been changed, however there have been many changes to the optimization and rendering of the game I would make sure that all of your graphic settings are to your liking. The changes made have not been to any item and we will not be able to grant you a refund for the camouflage. If you have any more questions or concerns please feel free to contact us again.

Victory or Death!

Operative Ghrutz
PlanetSide 2
Sony Online Entertainment

[Rat]

Gotta look at it from another angle, I dont think the camos were ever intended to actually hide anyone, especially since they are station cash purchase only....thats blatent pay to win, maybe SOE thinks the camo was working better than intended.

[HiroshiChugi]

Gotta look at it from another angle, I dont think the camos were ever intended to actually hide anyone, especially since they are station cash purchase only....thats blatent pay to win, maybe SOE thinks the camo was working better than intended.

The letter obviously says that they changed the graphics settings and such. The camos haven't changed, just the graphics and stuff.

[BIGGByran]

I like what they have done to my vehicle camo, before it was so mute that it looks stock. Now they made it "pop" out more and is a lot better for Amerish.

I wish they would just leave the camo alone and just do a Ver.2 for it and for those that didn't buy the camo, have a way of previewing it before purchase, like actually seeing it on the tank.

[BIGGByran]

You apparently didnt know it - but before the patch your camo already looked drastically different to different people based on what graphics setting they used.

@ OP
What he was saying here is that the same camo doesn't look the same to everyone. Someone with LOW graphic settings will see it differently than someone with HIGH graphic settings and everything else in between. So maybe your camo is mute with people playing at Low to Med graphic settings. Maybe they just made the camo the way it was meant to look, due to the performance issues.

[ChipMHazard]

I replied to Chip and received another charming response:
<snip>

Well there we have it, this being the case there isn't anything to warrant, even from an business ethics point of view, a refund of any kind.

While you can certainly complain about the changes made to the ingame graphics that would be for a different thread.

[MrBloodworth]

TomaHawk from the official forum:

Yea, who are we, the players that keep business in business, to expect them to do right by their customers? Awful expectation, really. I mean, next thing you know, you'll expect other MMOs to refund skill points or start providing fair customer service to their players in some stupid attempt at keeping them around. Preposterous!

I guess it's impossible for SOE to leave the purchased camo in the game for those players who bought it, then adding (vs changing) a new camo while removing the original from the menu?

A child wrote that.


Also, you keep reposting things from this thread to the official forms and back, not things that you have written but what others have written. If people wanted to comment on your thread in the OF they would, if they wanted to post here, they would. You need to stop.

[Sifer2]

I'm going to guess that the images feed to the shader for camos was what was changed to Atlas to remove the 60mb of video memory. This Atlasing likely created color shifts do to palatalization during DXT5 compression.

Lastly, asking for a refund due to some color changes? How petty can you be? Its not like they completely changed to pastel or something. Looks to me it moved in some cases about 20 to 30 points in HEX value.


That explanation makes the most sense. Since it seems like every camo got brighter even stuff like Alpha Squad. TR Alpha Squad looks almost pink now. Question is whether the art team will go back an fix this.

[Graywolves]

That particular camo always looked like that kind that stands out in the open very well. With that kind of camouflage you're supposed to be in the shade or somewhere to break your silhouette.


I never noticed a change personally. I'm just glad my strawberry milkshake camou is so awesome, even if the big white and red splotches make me stand out.

[mrmrmrj]

If anyone thinks that camo affects the enemy's ability to see your tank or sunderer, you are nuts.

[MrBloodworth]

That explanation makes the most sense. Since it seems like every camo got brighter even stuff like Alpha Squad. TR Alpha Squad looks almost pink now. Question is whether the art team will go back an fix this.

Within limits, it can be minimized. But then it comes down to money, time, schedule, Will and whatnot.

The Assertion that this was Intentional and with some sort of malice is ridiculous though.

[Dragonskin]

If anyone thinks that camo affects the enemy's ability to see your tank or sunderer, you are nuts.

Pretty much this. A different hue of the same pattern making it slightly more vibrant... big whoop. You chose the camo to look different than the average Joe... not to use it tactically to blend into your surroundings. Camo in game doesn't work the same as camo in real life. You don't have a empire specific taco over your head in real life with your name over it.

[Eliphas]

Within limits, it can be minimized. But then it comes down to money, time, schedule, Will and whatnot.

The Assertion that this was Intentional and with some sort of malice is ridiculous though.

Unless it was done to generate revenue. But that is a huge if and a bit of a reason I do not like the idea of free to play games. Sure they have the sub for the queue time and xp boost but really how do you think that is going to last for the extra development down the five year road. I can see both side of the coin on this issue.

[Ghoest9]

The hue changed on pretty much everything(depending on your graphic setting) with the Feb 2 patch.

This was not targeted at camo.

Get a grip.

[Obstruction]

nerfed because people couldn't see you with it on lol. next set of camos will include glowing red bullseye targets on the back for game balance. but actually they'll only change it when the next set of camos are available for sale. ;)

[Jenkss]

I'll try submitting my own ticket. I used to LOVE the jungle camo on my vehicles on Vanu.

They are so bright and ugly now it's not even funny. I bought a few of the new Amerish camos as they look how my old camo used to. Which is sad.

I was pretty upset with the change to the camo for exactly the same reason, if it looked bright and fluoro like it does now I would have never spent the 500SC on the unlimited option.

Give me my 500SC back and I'll immediately spend it on more Amerish camo

[Riekopo]

I will keep trying to get a refund. The more attention we bring to this issue the more likely SOE will do something about it.

My latest response:

Ghrutz,

Whether the camouflage cosmetic item was changed because of changes to the rendering or because of something else is irrelevant to me and everyone else who had their camouflage changed. The simple fact remains that I bought a cosmetic item because of the way it looked. That cosmetic item now looks vastly different. Do you not see a problem here? Are you also aware that when this change happened new camouflages were released that were muted and natural looking like the old camouflages? Do you understand how this looks? I have spent nearly $300 on PS2, was in Beta and Alpha Squad, joined a PS2 clan, and participated in UES. All I want is for SOE to do right by their customer. If you can't resolve this then I need to speak to someone else at SOE.

Best

[Mox]

The changes look horrible. I hope you guys will get some refund or at least some kind of a free exchange option. But SOE is not a company famous for its customer support.....

[Satanam]

Thank you very much, guys! I'm using a GTX 690 and didn't even know about it. Now I can get it useful as it should be. Thanks again!

[Riekopo]

End result: Fucked over by SOE. Will never purchase anything from the depot again.

My Response:
Ghrutz,

All of the camouflage that I purchased months ago was changed. I don't remember exactly when, I would have to sort through my email archive to find the receipts. I have an armor, vehicle, and gun camouflage set of Sandy Scrub, Rocky, Tundra, and Jungle Forest. I also have vehicle camouflage of Desert Scrub v1, Forest Greyscale, Desert Scrub v2, and Snow Aspen Forest. I likewise have gun camouflage of Desert Scrub v2 and Desert Scrub v1.

Best

SOE Final Response:
Greetings,

This is Operative Bronx with PlanetSide 2 in-game support.

I'm really sorry about your recent upset with the appearance of your camouflages. Unfortunately, we are not able to exchange or return regular or cosmetic items due to their updates in development. Much like a previous GM stated, "this is a MMO"; it will constantly be changing and updating. The look and caliber of all items are subject to change to promote better balance in-game.

We really hope you can understand why we cannot exchange or SC refund your camouflages for you.

If you have any further questions or concerns then please do not hesitate to contact us again.

[PS2] Top Known Issues
http://help.station.sony.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/34974

See you on the Battlefield!

Operative Bronx
PlanetSide 2
Sony Online Entertainment

[MrBloodworth]

Unless it was done to generate revenue.

No, not "unless" Thats the same thing as thinking this is Intentional and with some sort of malice. You are still under the ridiculous category. Most people did not even notice.

[bpostal]

If you want to be damn near invisible you can easily do so in a few simple steps:
1: Go VS
2: Don't bother buying camo
3: Wait for night
4: Lurk...

[Dougnifico]

What I'm sensing is a lot of butt mad with a little bit of reason...

The camo still looks good. You may be a little more visible in the sunlight is all.

[Paperboy]

This is game is a joke, it has failed, I don't understand why people are even playing this game, I quit some time ago, I see nothing but problems, and I doubt it is going to get any better and if it will get any better it is probably already too late, it's in a dying state.

[ChipMHazard]

Ok.... And that little rant was relevant how?

[ChrisLand]

Well I think the OP and subsequent responses offer a fair criticism. It is unfortunate that the recent optimization / graphics changes have effected camo in that way.

However, the level of criticism towards SOE on this issue is too exaggerated. They are trying to make the game better. With that comes changes.
Since I am not VS, I have purchased 3 sets of camos for the 3 continents, like you. When I purchased them at launch I was fully aware that things will change. Better camos will probably come out, terrain may change, graphics may change, etc etc.

As this is a game which is continuously evolving I accept that any purchase I make now may change later - however I buy the item for my enjoyment now...not as something I expect to last forever necessarily.

I would love to see a "trade-up" system where you could trade-in your old camos for the new ones but I doubt that will happen.

Although I understand your frustration, a change in the look of camo is not the breaking point of this game for me.