Vanu and balancing after the newest patches

[Chris Talon]

Greetings everyone,

I would like to constructively discuss the current balancing of the Vanu vs. the other factions after the newest patches. As I see it, few things have been done at all to actually nerf the Vanu. I can see that the developers are trying to buff the other factions before taking away from one but this strategy seems to have failed overall.

As I have stated in the past, I see the current imbalance (meaning: Vanu overpower) as a result of the devs good intentions to create something special, yet failing to do so by implementing proper drawbacks.

Examples are widespread and discussed in pretty much every forum and they include:

Magrider overpower due to having special advantages (dodging bullets, saron) as well as having no disadvantage (same armor as prowler).
- As I see it, the mobility of the tank shouldn't be nerved as this is what is special about this tank. However the armor should be nerfed to the absolute minimum of the mbts, leaving the magrider highly fragile (as in the fluff).
--> The only current change to this was the nerf to the saren which barely seems to have affected the game at all. Much whined about strafenerfs seem to be merely bugs.

Nightfighting advantages due to pitch black uniforms
- needs no explanation and could be fixed by making parts of the uniform glowing/giving them lights.

Very easy weapon handling/overpowered infantry weapons
- again, the bullet drop thing here should not be changed because this is the special thing about the vanu.
--> The solution could be serious nerfs to actual horizontal spread, smaller magazines, reduced rate of fire, etc.

This is all so far from me, so what do you think ?

And please keep discussions civilized and to vanu players - please be objective here and try to give good reasons if you disagree with the above statements.

Cya Chris

[Pella]

I honestly dont see why the VS require further nerfing.

ESF: The scythe is terrible compared to the mozzie.
Tank: Magrider is now on a level playing field with the NC/TR tanks. Prowler being slightly better.
Weapons: Same applies. All the TTK stats are equal across all types.

As for night time fights. [NRV Scope] Only 30 certs.

Just after launch i would of said yes, they need a nerf. But now its even stevens.

[Thunderhawk]

Please play a VS char for 1 Week, then re-read your post.

@OP

[Silent Thunder]

The one thing I have noticed is the Vanu owning a bit more land as of late, but I attribute that to the canyons just being a bitch to take. God knows how many times Ive seen people try to funnel the Prowlers through those narrow canyon passes. Makes me tear my hair out. I don't say nerf Vanu, I say Nerf SE Indar! :rofl:

EDIT: Also I agree with the above post. Before making any claims of being Underpowered or Overpowered, one should spend a few days playing as the faction is question (Or simply the other factions if it's an UP claim). Hell they give you three characters, put one for each in the high pop server of each region (West, East, and EU).

[ShadetheDruid]

VS weapons are fine as they are. They (as well as TR weapons, to some extent) just have the advantage of ease of use. In my mind, default weapons should follow the "easy to use, difficult to master" mantra, which VS (and TR) weapons do.

The solution to balancing isn't to make one faction's weapons harder to use, that just screws everyone (but newbies especially), the solution is to make sure the defaults are newb-friendly out of the box (ie. no attachments). Currently NC fails this test, or at least they did. I haven't used NC defaults since beta.

I agree with the suggestion of playing VS for a bit. I found VS weapons to be annoying beforehand (although I recognised their mid range accuracy to be the point of their default weapons), but since playing them it doesn't bother me anymore. You might be able to, for example, hit people at mid range with long bursts or even full auto - but you'd be surprised how much effort (and ammo, for that matter) you go through to do it because of the damage and fire rate being average.

[BIGGByran]

I play all three factions, but my main is NC.

VS I (mostly) play as: Engineer/Magrider.
TR I (mostly) play as: Heavy Assault/Medic
NC I play as: Every class. I rarely play any Vehicle or Max.


TR and VS Starting Weapons are:
1) Easier to use due to low recoil
2) Fast rate of fire, giving them the advantage in Close to mid range fights
3) have decent to good reload speeds
4) slightly lower damage per bullet

NC Starting Weapon are:
1) slightly harder to use because of higher recoil
2) Low rate of fire giving us a slight disadvantage in close combat, but about the same in mid range if you control your shots
3) Slightly slower reload speeds
4) slightly higher damage per bullet


-I think the Magrider SEEMS fine right now. I don't see it as overly produced as it use to be, but it still has it's dodging capability. Still very hard to hit at decent to long ranges.

-I never noticed the Saron, maybe it is because I don't play vehicles much, but I hear it was/is OP. I have shot it a few times as my VS and loved it.

-If VS needs a nerf at anything, it is their clothes! Nerf their clothes! They have a natural camo for night and inside buildings, very very hard to see them.

[Graywolves]

The solution to balancing isn't to make one faction's weapons harder to use, that just screws everyone (but newbies especially), the solution is to make sure the defaults are newb-friendly out of the box (ie. no attachments). Currently NC fails this test, or at least they did. I haven't used NC defaults since beta.

Currently the NC6 Gauss Sniper-Automatic-Weapon(SAW) doesn't require burst fire when ADS ~50meters. With no attachments, iron sight. Flinching remains annoying, hip fire got a little easier, there's a bit of a learning curve but once you figure out a certain trick it's pretty beast even with seemingly large bloom.


I think the Vanu are fine for the most part, I prefer fighting them as opposed to NC currently (opposite of launch).

The tanks are pretty balanced Tank to Tank. Magrider still has a huge advantage over new BR1 HA who didn't spend a dime on the game because the 5mph bright rockets are significantly easier to dodge.

Nothing huge needs to be changed anywhere, just some very minor tweaks.

[Shamrock]

Not sure if serious...

NOT SURE IF SERIOUS OR SARCASTIC - YouTube

[Assist]

I honestly dont see why the VS require further nerfing.

ESF: The scythe is terrible compared to the mozzie.
Tank: Magrider is now on a level playing field with the NC/TR tanks. Prowler being slightly better.
Weapons: Same applies. All the TTK stats are equal across all types.

As for night time fights. [NRV Scope] Only 30 certs.

Just after launch i would of said yes, they need a nerf. But now its even stevens.

The only people who think the Vanu are overpowered are the forumwarriors who don't play the game.
I'd argue that the Magrider is worse than the Vanguard, which is worse than the Prowler. Weapons the VS have the only weapons that cannot be compensated for by the skill of the player. They are what they are, and that's terrible at range.

As far as the VS being even, I'd disagree there as well and I think the only true measure we have of that is the population of the VS across all servers. Take a look sometime, I've a feeling people will be surprised who don't play Vanu. I'm not playing them anymore, until they're addressed. Why should I when faction loyalty is clearly discouraged by the game mechanic setups. Can't wait for the account-wide unlocks.

[Ghoest9]

@ OP

I never play Vanu but they do NOT need all these nerfs you want - there are better ways to get balance.`

-The mag rider issue should be dealt with by buffing other tanks.

-Vanu weapons should not be nerfed but something should be done about NC starter weapons. And the flinch code itself should be changed.

Vanu do not need to have more glowey uniforms. If you make glowing purple/pink it looks gay - (or should I say what is percieved as gay). Theres nothing wrong with gayness - but most players dont want to look that way.

The better answer is to offer a dark camo option for everyone.



Over all it just seems like you want to make Vanu less fun rather than make the game balanced.

[BIGGByran]

The better answer is to offer a dark camo option for everyone.

I don't think it's fair that I have to pay to have the same advantages as the VS stock clothes.
Or if you meant free then, still no. Just make it where everyone's difficulty to see another faction the same at all distances. I think this would be best.

I'm not saying completely change the color of their clothes, but make the green pop out a little more, just a little.

NC, to me, are the easiest to spot at night. TR are about the middle ground, as they are somewhat hard to spot. But VS it's just very difficult. Day time, no issues.

[Thunderhawk]

All these complaints about VS being seen at night is making me want to stop using all these Camos I bought and stick to VS stock....

Is it really that bad ?

[BIGGByran]

All these complaints about VS being seen at night is making me want to stop using all these Camos I bought and stick to VS stock....

Is it really that bad ?

lol yes!! and when I play against VS, I wonder why they waste their money on camos when the stock ones are so so much better!

Day time, camos work for VS but at night, revert back to stock!

You should try playing a different faction and fight a few good hours against VS at night and especially at night in a facility.

Outside VS Standing still or Moving, they are hard to spot.
Inside VS Standing they are hard to spot. Moving a little bit easier to spot depending on distance.

[Koadster]

NC Starting Weapon are:
1) slightly harder to use because of higher recoil
2) Low rate of fire giving us a slight disadvantage in close combat, but about the same in mid range if you control your shots
3) Slightly slower reload speeds
4) slightly higher damage per bullet



1) Dont go full auto all the time, Burst fire.
2) Low rate of fire is compensated by higher dmg per shot then VS/TR and you have faster velocity then TR guns
3) Check the weapon stats. NC reloads faster then TR but slower then VS
4) That is your factional trait which is the offset to your slower ROF.

NC HA starting weapon.. you get HA ammo, Compensator and advanced foregrip (Carv doesnt get any of that). If you cert into those it becomes an absolute beast, you only need to place 5 body shots to kill due to the 200dmg per shot.

I would gladly pay 700SC for the default NC carbine over my Trac5 or T5 AMC. Love the merc especially with LA class.

Again, NC guns require a different play style. Its more a marksmen faction then a spray and pray faction. Before someone rages about this post Ive played NC for quite a few hours and generally maintain a 3-4KDR as infantry only.

[BIGGByran]

@Koadster
lol you just stated what I said.
I prefer the GD-7F over the stock gun. AMAZING rof! Full Auto Hip Fire and of course burst for shots outside hip fire range.

HA stock gun is great for mid to long range, but heard it wasn't great at close due to the ROF. I use the EM1 with Adv Laser, softpoint ammo and 1x scope for amazing cqc and decent mid and Gauss Saw S with 2x scope, Forward Grip and compensator for good cqc and good mid range.

[ChipMHazard]

Have they gotten around to fixing the Magrider's strafing bug yet?

[Chris Talon]

Take a look at Matt Higbys Twitter page, he actually responded to a complaning poster stating that if he wanted an absolutely overpowered tank (he the specifically mentions the magrider as having been just that), he couldn't help him.

So I guess the devs are aware of the Vanu problem now and proceed to fix it ! That is good news ! :)

[ShadetheDruid]

Take a look at Matt Higbys Twitter page, he actually responded to a complaning poster stating that if he wanted an absolutely overpowered tank (he the specifically mentions the magrider as having been just that), he couldn't help him.

So I guess the devs are aware of the Vanu problem now and proceed to fix it ! That is good news ! :)

I had a look at that yesterday. It's funny because that's exactly what i've been saying this whole time - that the strafing issues were/are a bug, but Magriders still aren't supposed to be able to get up ridiculous hills. Nice to have some confirmation on that.

[Ghoest9]

All these complaints about VS being seen at night is making me want to stop using all these Camos I bought and stick to VS stock....

Is it really that bad ?

Yes. VS base colors are by far the most effective colors from a tactical stand point in the game.

This is mainly because in the light no camo helps much unless you are hiding in vegetation. but at night and in shadows Vanu base is by far the best.

[Ghoest9]

1) Dont go full auto all the time, Burst fire.
2) Low rate of fire is compensated by higher dmg per shot then VS/TR and you have faster velocity then TR guns
3) Check the weapon stats. NC reloads faster then TR but slower then VS
4) That is your factional trait which is the offset to your slower ROF.

NC HA starting weapon.. you get HA ammo, Compensator and advanced foregrip (Carv doesnt get any of that). If you cert into those it becomes an absolute beast, you only need to place 5 body shots to kill due to the 200dmg per shot.

I would gladly pay 700SC for the default NC carbine over my Trac5 or T5 AMC. Love the merc especially with LA class.

Again, NC guns require a different play style. Its more a marksmen faction then a spray and pray faction. Before someone rages about this post Ive played NC for quite a few hours and generally maintain a 3-4KDR as infantry only.

No one really cares about you k/d.

What matters is that over all the starter guns for NC are harder to use for the average player.

[Sirisian]

I'm not sure I see it. The MBT balance is pretty much spot on now. I play as vanu and the prowlers with their lock down and insane range are pretty much destroying magriders now. The advantage used to be that we'd stay at range strafing, but with the increased velocity of prowler rounds it's very difficult to dodge them now. Also the buffs have made the prowler ridiculous against infantry. (Better than the vanguard by far). Probably that each heat round can one hit infantry allowing them to trivially destroy large amounts of infantry from range with minimal recoil.

Also weapons from what I can tell are extremely balanced. The only minor minor issue is the flinching, but 90% of the battles are won by those who fire first so it rarely comes into play with the higher RoF weapons.

About the camo stuff I'm not sure what you mean. Pretty much no one I've seen is using the default camos. I use a white camo personally since I like the look.

You need to either play the other factions more or something. Also be objective when you play. If you aren't good at FPS games realize that just because you died to something doesn't mean it's OP. I've seen many people playing HA for instance just run out and jump in front of a vanguard and get killed. Some people just make really bad decisions in the game.

[Baneblade]

The VS are fine, although I kind of wish NC had some of those ultra accurate guns. Makes infantry fighting pretty one sided at times.

[Bobby Shaftoe]

The VS are fine, although I kind of wish NC had some of those ultra accurate guns. Makes infantry fighting pretty one sided at times.

You mean like the default NC HA and Medic guns? Especially the fucking Gauss rifle, jesus, if anyone has trouble killing with that thing, it's official, you are terrible. :huh:

[james]

The problem with the balance is how they did ease of use.
The Vanu is basically Cod, so basically anyone can do well with there inf weapons
The TR, is more bf. It takes little skill but they are still spray and pray.
The NC, is basically some more realistic shooter, with high recoil.

None of the weapons are very overpowered, the nc can hold there own once you drop 300 certs in a gun, but from the gecko there guns are crap.

The whole arguement i play 40 hrs a week, and i can use nc weapons is pointless. Your part of the maybe 10 percent of the game. No matter what a good player will be able to do fine with any weapon. Its the problem with average players.

[Baneblade]

You mean like the default NC HA and Medic guns? Especially the fucking Gauss rifle, jesus, if anyone has trouble killing with that thing, it's official, you are terrible. :huh:

I get plenty of kills, but its irrefutable that VS of the same skill level will win 1v1. Accuracy trumps all else. When I logged into my VS toon, I wiped the floor with a TR squad for over an hour.

Believe me, use NC weapons for long enough, you will make TR and VS seem way overpowered when you use them.

[ringring]

I'd advise leaving things as they are for a while until stats of kills over a period of time can be gathered.

I personally don't generally give much weight to anadotal evidence and would tend to wait for the devs to react to imbalances but my feelings are:

NC are better recently as far as infantry weapons are concerned compared to TR
VS really are difficult to see
The prowler is probably the better tank.
The magrider is hardest to hit
The best class/loadout is infil+smg

[Palerion]

I would like to point out, in terms of weaponry balance in general, I am more pro-buff than pro-nerf.

I feel like nerfing always goes a bit too far. I would rather have certain weapons be too easy to use than frustratingly hard to use.

[BIGGByran]

I would like to point out, in terms of weaponry balance in general, I am more pro-buff than pro-nerf.

I feel like nerfing always goes a bit too far. I would rather have certain weapons be too easy to use than frustratingly hard to use.

To me it depends. If it is 1 items that is OP then I support nerfing because if you have to buff 16 different items, then you could throw alot of things out of sync.

If 1 item is UP, then I support buffing it instead of nerfing 16 different items.

I guess what I am saying is that: We should buff/nerf based on how many items we have to do it on, the least the better.

[Scythan]

I thought long and hard about posting this. Usually "X Is Overpowered" threads send up red flags and I ignore the, but without debasing to mudslinging sophomoric insults, I think some empirical points can be made.

In private, I admit a prejudice I had upon game's launch against the Vanu. I too, felt they were overpowered and on my server, SolTech, they simply dominate.

Trusting the developers, and being a PlanetSide I vet and remembering the 'balance wars' back then: I took my disdain in stride and attempted to justify action not being taken.

After careful data comparison, observation and forum responses I will submit the following hypothesis:

The Vanu are the easiest faction to pick-up and play, and understand, but have no significantly superior equipment, weapons or vehicles to other empires.

I think the strengths of the other two, in order of TR, then NC take a bit of 'adjusting' to the M.O. of the other shooters in the world - and their strengths are a bit more subtle

(footnote: For example I count the TR's strength is not having a glaring weakness, being the 'average-all-around' faction [a VS will beat you at range, an NC up close but a TR has average performance at both where the VS ammo capacity is less ideal up close and the NC's CoF is higher at range] and able to adapt quickly to many situations based primarily on creativity and skill such as using a large-magazine advantage to 'scare' another player into running and charging up a hill)

I propose, that the Vanu can appear, perhaps more than the other Empires, to be unbalanced simply because of the pick-up-n-play factor but maintain that no significant balance issue exists.

This is only a hypothesis I have taken from observation and I mean no offense to those who disagree.

[Mordelicius]

The MBTs are pretty much sorted out, except the Prowler got overbuffed. They need to nerf the anchored mode survivability. Basically, a Prowler on anchored mode on top of a hill with engineer(s) make it outlast anything on the ground. So, the Prowlers are now both strongest tank DPS and best infantry killer to boot. They have to give up something for all that advantage.

The Magrider is still annoying as hell with their ability to dodge, but it's close enough. Their ability to snipe 'exotic' spots are a thing of a past.

Hence, imo, the last area of faction balancing pertain to weapons. The devs said they are doing a major balancing pass on most weapons. I have several reasons to believe they will get good handle on it:

1) E-Sports - If they have E-sports aspiration for this game, balance has to be their priority. To me, it's one of the two good things coming out of E-sports in PS2, although I have no interest on e-sports itself. (The other one is it will attract more players into the game thus filling up the map).

2) Data/Metrics - The K/D ratio did it for the MBTs, so I assume they got similar numbers for the guns.

Vanu and TR are almost identical in strength now due to the TR MBT buff and VS Mag nerf. Vanu still hold a slight advantage with the guns. They have the rate of fire of TR with accuracy and damn small cof.