New SMGs and why the TR one is out of place

[UnclearAsh]

Started a discussion over at the official forums, wanted to know what PSU thought.

Official Forum Post (http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/smgs-first-and-second-wave.96677/#post-1280633)


Here is a copy of what I said

So I am curious.


During the first wave the TR got their High RoF SMG which had a default 30 round mag (cert-able to 40) and the VS/NC had their slow RoF SMG which had a mag of 25 (35 with upgrade)

Now the second batch comes out today and now the TR get their slow RoF gun (60 rounds) and the VS/NC get their High RoF guns (50 rounds)

Now don't get me wrong I like my new SMG, but shouldn't the High RoF SMGS have come with the smaller mags and the slower ones the drums? Doesn't seem very fair that the NC/VS get more ammo capacity in their speed demons then the TR does.

For the sake of reference here is the RoF of each SMG


AF-4 Cyclone-NC-25 rounds-RoF 652 rpm
SMG-46 Armistice-TR-30 rounds-RoF 896 rpm
Eridani SX5-VS-25 rounds-RoF 750 rpm
Blitz GD-10-NC-50 rounds-RoF 845 rpm
PDW-16 Hailstorm-TR-60 rounds-RoF 800 rpm
Sirius SX12-VS-50 rounds-RoF 845 rpm

all data pulled from here
Weapon Spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AuOojvNLMApVdEtIU1NKenEzNzZOSWNaanFqSUVxLW c&type=view&gid=12&f=true&colid0=17&filterstr0=SMG&sortcolid=-1&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250)



If you take in to account the bullet velocity and dmg of the TRs new Hailstorm then it is the worst SMG, it should at a minimum have had its dmg increased from the 127 of all the high RoF SMGs

[POCKETdonkey]

While you do bring up some logical points, isn't pure balance something that should be forgotten in favor of empire flavor?. I mean why have weapons in every class be relatively balanced with each other when each empire could excel at something to the detriment of something else.

In this case the TR having a crappier SMG but say a better HMG.

people seem so quick to complain about their empire having a weaker purple monkey dishwasher or what have you, as opposed to embracing different tactics and play-styles, and what we seem to end up with is factions that are almost exactly alike.

Anyways you get the point, I'll stop here before this turns into a four page buzzcut psycho esque post :P

[Canaris]

the TR weapon doctrine isn't just about ROF, its also about firing more bullets, a larger clip with a slower ROF is fine

[Rasui]

I'm just annoyed that I bought the Eridani and now the Sirius is pretty much superior in every way. It's yet another case of "Bought a V10? Too bad here's the Parallax!" except this time it only took weeks.

[Sturmhardt]

Yeah.. I haven't tested the new nc SMG yet, cause I'm on vacation, but I already regret buying the first one because they brought out a new and possibly better one right away. Still, I'll not buy the new one, no matter how good it is.

.sent via phone.

[ShadetheDruid]

The important thing here is: better for your particular playstyle =/= better overall. Personally i'm sticking with the Eridani, my playstyle/skill level doesn't suit low damage weapons.

Therefore from my point of view, Eridani > Sirius.

[Rasui]

The important thing here is: better for your particular playstyle =/= better overall. Personally i'm sticking with the Eridani, my playstyle/skill level doesn't suit low damage weapons.

Therefore from my point of view, Eridani > Sirius.

I don't even think it comes down to playstyle. The Eridani has 25 rounds per-mag baseline. Which if you miss at all is a death sentence against HA's. Lets not even get into how much of a headshot king you have to be if you go 2v1 with 25 rounds. Now this is the part where you tell me "But Ras, you can cert the extended mag and circumvent those problems." which is true, but you create a whole new one. That being for some inane reason this game doesn't give extra ammo equal to your extended mags, so now you've got barely 4 magazines worth of ammo TOTAL. Considering how fast the Eridani chews through ammo at 750 RPM that's not much. You can go further and use the ammo belt to somewhat alleviate this problem, but more on that later.

Now look at the Sirius, slightly less damage at 125 per shot vs the Eridani's 143. However, that's compensated for by having 95 higher RPM at 845. Slightly longer reload, but DOUBLE the base magazine capacity. This is HUGE, each of your 4 extra mags are just as large, and if you're using the ammo belt the gap between the Eridani and the Sirius gets even wider. The nail in the coffin is that now your rail slot isn't being taken up by the Ex-Mag and you have room to use a laser-sight or forward grip. The guns are no longer comparable, having the larger magazine AND the rail upgrade the Sirius wins hands down.

Edit: Stats are here for the curious. The Sirius also has less recoil and higher velocity.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AuOojvNLMApVdEtIU1NKenEzNzZOSWNaanFqSUVxLW c&type=view&gid=12&f=true&colid0=16&filterstr0=VS&colid1=17&filterstr1=SMG&sortcolid=17&sortasc=false&rowsperpage=250

[Varsam]

I don't even think it comes down to playstyle. The Eridani has 25 rounds per-mag baseline. Which if you miss at all is a death sentence against HA's. Lets not even get into how much of a headshot king you have to be if you go 2v1 with 25 rounds. Now this is the part where you tell me "But Ras, you can cert the extended mag and circumvent those problems." which is true, but you create a whole new one. That being for some inane reason this game doesn't give extra ammo equal to your extended mags, so now you've got barely 4 magazines worth of ammo TOTAL. Considering how fast the Eridani chews through ammo at 750 RPM that's not much. You can go further and use the ammo belt to somewhat alleviate this problem, but more on that later.

Now look at the Sirius, slightly less damage at 125 per shot vs the Eridani's 143. However, that's compensated for by having 95 higher RPM at 845. Slightly longer reload, but DOUBLE the base magazine capacity. This is HUGE, each of your 4 extra mags are just as large, and if you are using the ammo belt the gap between the Eridani and the Sirius gets even wider. The nail in the coffin is that now your rail slot isn't being taken up by the Ex-Mag and you have room to use a laser-sight or forward grip. The guns are no longer comparable, having the large magazine AND the rail upgrade the Sirius wins hands down.

Edit: Stats are here for the curious. The Sirius also has less recoil and higher velocity.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AuOojvNLMApVdEtIU1NKenEzNzZOSWNaanFqSUVxLW c&type=view&gid=12&f=true&colid0=16&filterstr0=VS&colid1=17&filterstr1=SMG&sortcolid=17&sortasc=false&rowsperpage=250

you could also argue that the Siriius' ridiculous h. recoil makes it unsuitable for any engagement past 10-15m, which pidgeonholes players who want extra midrange viability into certing the foregrip.

[Rasui]

you could also argue that the Siriius' ridiculous h. recoil makes it unsuitable for any engagement past 10-15m, which pidgeonholes players who want extra midrange viability into certing the foregrip.

The damage drop-off on ALL SMG's make them unsuitable beyond 10-15m. I mean you can kill people past that distance, but they're clearly designed and balanced for killing at point blank range. Check out the rate of decline versus other weapon types.

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/4165/smgdamagecomparison.png

^ Right click+View Image.

[Varsam]

The damage drop-off on ALL SMG's make them unsuitable beyond 10-15m. I mean you can kill people past that distance, but they're clearly designed and balanced for killing at point blank range. Check out the rate of decline versus other weapon types.

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/4165/smgdamagecomparison.png

^ Right click+View Image.

This is true. But I think this was more of a design decision to keep them from dominating at mid ranges as well as close range, and they are VERY effective at close range. Given this, I think the Sirius was designed to be even more specialist than the Eridani, which is why many still prefer the latter - they favor the greater versatility over the former, even if it is only by degrees.

[Rasui]

This is true. But I think this was more of a design decision to keep them from dominating at mid ranges as well as close range, and they are VERY effective at close range. Given this, I think the Sirius was designed to be even more specialist than the Eridani, which is why many still prefer the latter - they favor the greater versatility over the former, even if it is only by degrees.

You're entitled to your opinion, but you simply can't take a specialist weapon like an SMG and make it versatile. It's a close range killer through and through. However, if you want to look at it from that perspective. The simple fact that you have the freedom to choose your rail mod without handicapping yourself makes the Sirius superior.

[Koadster]

I'm just annoyed that I bought the Eridani and now the Sirius is pretty much superior in every way. It's yet another case of "Bought a V10? Too bad here's the Parallax!" except this time it only took weeks.

You must be new here.. that is the entire design scheme behind PS2 depot. As soon as the first wave of smgs came out, instantly I told none of my outfit to buy them because SOE being SOE... they will release better ones in a few weeks.. And they did.

So from now on.. DO NOT buy any new gun that comes around, because in a few more weeks a better replacement will appear.

[UnclearAsh]

You must be new here.. that is the entire design scheme behind PS2 depot. As soon as the first wave of smgs came out, instantly I told none of my outfit to buy them because SOE being SOE... they will release better ones in a few weeks.. And they did.

So from now on.. DO NOT buy any new gun that comes around, because in a few more weeks a better replacement will appear.

Well all of them save the TR one, only advantage it has is more ammo, has a slower RoF, slower velocity, and slower TTK.

But I do agree with other that I much prefer to not be pigeon holed into the extended mag and dieing if I even miss with 5 bullets from my mag.

[NotTheMomma]

This is like listening to people argue over which flavor of ice cream is more nutritious. Vanilla! No, French Vanilla! :lol:

[Sifer2]

Well all of them save the TR one, only advantage it has is more ammo, has a slower RoF, slower velocity, and slower TTK.

But I do agree with other that I much prefer to not be pigeon holed into the extended mag and dieing if I even miss with 5 bullets from my mag.


Yep. They should have made the other SMG's more like TR's. As it is it seems like TR SMG is the only one's that actually offer two balanced alternatives. Where as for VS/NC the mag size differences makes it an obviously better choice to use the new one's so you can use better attachments.

[Varsam]

You're entitled to your opinion, but you simply can't take a specialist weapon like an SMG and make it versatile. It's a close range killer through and through.

Sure, both emphasize cqc. But there's no reason not to design them so they have differing levels of effectiveness at different ranges. What you say might be true if the only differences between them were the firing rate and magazine size... but that's not the case at all.

However, if you want to look at it from that perspective. The simple fact that you have the freedom to choose your rail mod without handicapping yourself makes the Sirius superior.

I don't see how that's the case, as the Eridani has access to all the same certs.

[Rasui]

I'll give this one last shot.

Sure, both emphasize cqc. But there's no reason not to design them so they have differing levels of effectiveness at different ranges.
You start off admitting they're close range weapons. Then mention that they COULD design them differently? Huh? Are you trying to make some imaginary counter argument or something? The fact is they DIDN'T design them differently. They're ALL close range bullet hoses that are ineffective past 15m. That's what an SMG is, period. Not my opinion, that's the devs opinion. You even admitted to that in an earlier post.


What you say might be true if the only differences between them were the firing rate and magazine size... but that's not the case at all.
Except it is true, and those are the only relevant differences. Have a look at the stats (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AuOojvNLMApVdEtIU1NKenEzNzZOSWNaanFqSUVxLW c&type=view&gid=12&f=true&colid0=16&filterstr0=VS&colid1=17&filterstr1=SMG&sortcolid=16&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250). The damage difference is only one bullet to the chest and no difference to the head, so that's not a factor. The reload is 0.6 seconds longer, but the magazine size is twice as large. The accuracy stats are literally identical. See where I'm going with this? The differences are negligible/nonexistent or trade-offs. Then we see better velocity, better rate of fire, better recoil, and a better ammo pool.


I don't see how that's the case, as the Eridani has access to all the same certs. I'll try to make this as simple as possible.

Eridani: Larger mag OR better hip fire

Sirius: Even larger mag AND better hip fire.

[Varsam]

*snip*

Ah. I see the confusion here. This is a classic case of theory vs practice. You're basing your comparison solely on the stats sheet (which, by the way, you overlook one very, very important detail on).

Have you actually spent any appreciable amount of time with both of the SMGs? I have, as I own both, and I can tell you from both experience and statistical data that the Eridani is superior to the Sirius the further away the target is. Why?

Horizontal recoil.

Specifically, left horizontal recoil. The Sirius has it, and the Eridani doesn't. This makes a HUGE difference, because a recoil pattern that moves up and right is relatively easily compensated for by pulling down and left. There is no compensating for recoil going in both directions. There is no non-hacking person in the world who has fast enough reflexes to compensate for per-bullet horizontal recoil when the weapon is just as likely to kick in the opposite direction on the next bullet. This, more than anything else, is the defining difference between the Eridani and the Sirius. The recoil pattern and fire rate of the Sirius both emphasize a cqc range of effectiveness when compared to the Eridani.

So. The claim that they are identical in all aspects other than mag size and hip fire accuracy fails to take into account one crucial detail. The claim about identical hip fire is simply untrue also, as the game data shows that both SMGs have identical values for ADS COF, hip COF, and per-bullet COF bloom.

[Badjuju]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4de2VRRGnw

Good overview and amazing artowrk

[Rasui]

*snip*
I wrote up a big long witty response to this but decided against it. The video in the post above this contains everything I've been saying in two separate threads over the last two days. Watch it and agree or disagree, I no longer care.

[Varsam]

I wrote up a big long witty response to this but decided against it. The video in the post above this contains everything I've been saying in two separate threads over the last two days. Watch it and agree or disagree, I no longer care.

1. One of the points in the video used to argue the Sirius' superiority - that the Eridani is incapable of equipping a foregrip - is flat out incorrect. The Eridani is fully capable of equipping a foregrip, which you would know if you owned one, or even bothered to fact check yourself.

2. The video then goes on to validate my stance on the Eridani's superiority outside of cqc.

From this we can conclude that 1) the Eridani is superior to the Sirius at longer ranges (which I said) and 2) the Sirius is superior to the Eridani at closer ranges (again like I said). The assertion that the Eridani is inferior in all capacities is, then, false. Each has their place in game play.

I'd invite you to rebuttle, but apparently you think resolution through debate beneath you.