The Stairs,doorways,shield doors,facilities are designed for like 20 vs 20

[Dreamcast]

I really don't understand why they did this.

The whole Maps are huge, great for vehicles/Aircraft, very open but when it comes to Facilities, they decide to do everything very tight and small.

As a Infantry player, is boring fighting in the same stalemates that happen on the same places because the stairs are designed for 5 people max.

Their is no strategy in Infantry battles, is just push push...because that all you can do when the map is designed to have all infantry crowded in one single place.

Instead of making the levels bigger, with more freedom so their would be better places to flank thus skill/tactics will matter more....They decide to make fights as crowded as possible so the Empire with the biggest numbers can push most and win.

http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-g/pipe-for-compressed-air-network-7518-2847725.jpg

All the Infantry facilities fights at the moment are basically just like pipes....The fights are pretty much straight forward, the ones with the most people will win.

To be honest, Im not sure if they could fix this anymore.

The facilities are small and tight, I doubt they can do much to make them have more flanking spots and be more open...It will require a serious redesign of all facilities.

The only thing I can hope for is that future maps facilities will be changed to address this problem.

[ChipMHazard]

They remind me more of meat grinders:p

I agree that they can't keep just opening up more entry points, if they aren't careful there will be more shields than walls.
I would love to see a much larger facility geared towards infantry combat, with different levels to fight on and more open areas with plenty of cover of course.

[Figment]

...I'm sorry, you're complaining that PS2 funnels players and there's no open terrain or flanking options? In fact, playing Light Assault, I can't think of any direction I can't attack from.



Did you even press "PLAY" yet? Because that's the exact opposite from what my experience is. In fact, you might be thinking of PS1 here with your pipes analogy. >.>


To me, most facilities remind me of this:

http://img.symworks.com/l_swiss_doorstop.jpg

[Dreamcast]

...I'm sorry, you're complaining that PS2 funnels players and there's no open terrain or flanking options? In fact, playing Light Assault, I can't think of any direction I can't attack from.



Did you even press "PLAY" yet? Because that's the exact opposite from what my experience is. In fact, you might be thinking of PS1 here with your pipes analogy. >.>


To me, most facilities remind me of this:

http://img.symworks.com/l_swiss_doorstop.jpg

lol

Everytime I mention Stalemates or anybody, somebody brings up light assault and their ability to fly.


In biodome atleast, jetpacks won't let you avoid the stalemate in either the airpads or shield rooms.

Now sure you can clime over walls and get on top of buildings.....but the game does have an overall flow....which includes fighting in super small doorways/staircases etc.......You probably havn't played much infantry if you don't see the stalemates.

Planetside 1 had stalemates but is a completely different game than this....I mean higher TTK etc, it kind made sense that the game had more stalemates.

Planetside 2 stalemates arn't really much better than Planetside 1....and don't fit the low ttk, fast pace that it has....It just feels wrong and cramped.

In ps1, I never felt that cramped to be honest like I do in the little rooms in Planetside 2(Lots of planetside 1 battles happened outside with openness) filled with like 50 people lol.

[BlaxicanX]

... It's a building.

How many buildings have stairs wide enough to fit ten people standing side-by-side on them?

From a gameplay perspective, the hallways and doors are chokepoints because it's the only thing preventing defenders from getting overwhelmed by superior numbers of attackers. Multiple, random holes in walls, and wide open hallways are not "defensible positions".

[Stanis]

lol
In ps1, I never felt that cramped to be honest like I do in the little rooms in Planetside 2(Lots of planetside 1 battles happened outside with openness) filled with like 50 people lol.

Where? I've got 3 grenades in my loadout ready for them..

More seriously, the problem is not pipes.
And I see the swiss cheese analogy.

There are very few places a squad can defend knowing the enemy has to get through them first.

All those places are swiss cheese with multiple entrances/paths/access
And when you do have a single room with stable defences covering arcs the lethality of grenades makes 'hold' difficult.

I can see both sides of pipe and cheese model
What I see though is very little combat in which a well entrenched smaller team playing defensively has the upper hand against a larger aggressor force.

It's always just plain numbers and spawn logistics.

[Figment]

lol

Everytime I mention Stalemates or anybody, somebody brings up light assault and their ability to fly.

Gee, I wonder why that is...

In biodome atleast, jetpacks won't let you avoid the stalemate in either the airpads or shield rooms.

Actually... they are your best bet on getting close and breaking in by dropping C4 between defenders and because leading a LA is harder due to the extra axis of movement that allows them to quickly hop out of sight if they do get through the first volley of fire.

But on the other hand, you could say AT LEAST THE BIO DOME TRIES TO LIMIT THE LA, SOMEWHERE. Once in though, not so much. The Bio Dome does nothing to control LA movements, because there are no ceilings that limit them to specific areas and funnel them through doors to force an approach from a specific direction, somewhere. The LA can always ignore the buildings, where other units cannot.

Now sure you can clime over walls and get on top of buildings.....but the game does have an overall flow....which includes fighting in super small doorways/staircases etc.......You probably havn't played much infantry if you don't see the stalemates.

Or you probably haven't tried playing 50% of your time in LA because you can avoid those stalemates if you just have some balls and take a leap of fate. Mind you, it's not good for your K/D, but anyone who cares for K/D in an objective game where staying alive doesn't secure the objective is a silly person anyway.

Planetside 1 had stalemates but is a completely different game than this....I mean higher TTK etc, it kind made sense that the game had more stalemates.

Planetside 2 stalemates arn't really much better than Planetside 1....and don't fit the low ttk, fast pace that it has....It just feels wrong and cramped.

In ps1, I never felt that cramped to be honest like I do in the little rooms in Planetside 2(Lots of planetside 1 battles happened outside with openness) filled with like 50 people lol.

Yes, but that's due to some entirely different reasons: the buildings were much larger and you wern't forced to sit in one room at a time. In PS1 you would push from room to room to room and you'd be funneled the entire way, but you'd be faced with split options: left or right? And then once or twice more: Left or right path?

In PS2, the attacker gets an option of 6 paths and the defender stays in the same room and can't break out or move to another room. Of course you feel trapped!

As attacker though, there's nothing stopping you from overflowing their defenses or taking a different approach angle. And I mean nothing.

Except for a very limited amount of bases: Bio Labs, The Crown, Vanu Archives, Mesa Skydock (or whatever it is called in the south) and a very select few other bases on Amerish.

The fast majority of them are attacker playground and defender nightmare due to the open design you just asked. If you limit yourself to two dimensional infantry, great. But don't complain about not being able to flank.

[Dreamcast]

... It's a building.

How many buildings have stairs wide enough to fit ten people standing side-by-side on them?

From a gameplay perspective, the hallways and doors are chokepoints because it's the only thing preventing defenders from getting overwhelmed by superior numbers of attackers. Multiple, random holes in walls, and wide open hallways are not "defensible positions".

When was the last time giant battles were decided on just 1 tiny building.

That's 16 vs 16 mentality.

I understand a building has small doorways and narrow stairs but since this is an MMO, I expect more stairs, and just bigger places to move around.

Chokepoints are just like the Pipes.

Sure you can defend the choke point, but with enough numbers, the attackers can just push and take over.....This is why this game is 100% Zerg friendly.


If the game was more open(with cover), with a better layout, where people could flank....Then more skillfull/tactical individuals will be more important...Tactics>Numbers.

Now Im not saying, to get rid of the stalemates completely maybe in some parts it could be fun but the game is mostly just that....Stalemates that are won by Zergs.

[Figment]

The more open and the more you can flank, the more zerg friendly.

The more chokepoints, the less troops you need to hold a point.

You forget that the zerg is made up of tons of tiny groups called individuals that each have the ability to flank.



Remember Thermopylae. The Persians only won when they got another option to flank. Do you remember the sea battle for Salamis? The smaller Greek fleet crushed the Persian fleet that was significantly bigger in size, due to the larger Persian fleet having no room to maneuvre: they got in each other's way.



You also might want a history refresher on chokepoints.
http://geopolicraticus.wordpress.com/2010/12/23/choke-points-and-grand-strategy/

If you want the zerg to be tamed, create more chokepoints and keep them in front of you, but whatever you do, do not dissipatate them to flow all around you. Smaller forces need to induce attrition and stalling in order to have a chance of beating the opponent.

[psijaka]

I really don't understand why they did this.

The whole Maps are huge, great for vehicles/Aircraft, very open but when it comes to Facilities, they decide to do everything very tight and small.

As a Infantry player, is boring fighting in the same stalemates that happen on the same places because the stairs are designed for 5 people max.

Their is no strategy in Infantry battles, is just push push...because that all you can do when the map is designed to have all infantry crowded in one single place.

Instead of making the levels bigger, with more freedom so their would be better places to flank thus skill/tactics will matter more....They decide to make fights as crowded as possible so the Empire with the biggest numbers can push most and win.

http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-g/pipe-for-compressed-air-network-7518-2847725.jpg

All the Infantry facilities fights at the moment are basically just like pipes....The fights are pretty much straight forward, the ones with the most people will win.

To be honest, Im not sure if they could fix this anymore.

The facilities are small and tight, I doubt they can do much to make them have more flanking spots and be more open...It will require a serious redesign of all facilities.

The only thing I can hope for is that future maps facilities will be changed to address this problem.

You've got this the wrong way around.

Tight facilities with choke points favour the defenders, not the attackers.

Adding more flanking opportunities and openings favours the attackers, not the defenders.

Blindingly obvious.

To me, most facilities remind me of this:

http://img.symworks.com/l_swiss_doorstop.jpg

+1. We need less holes, not more!

[HiroshiChugi]

Dreamcast, I'm glad you mad. Obviously, Planetside 2 isn't your game. go try Combat Arms, or APB: Reloaded, or AVA. Maybe you'll find your home there :)

[BlaxicanX]

When was the last time giant battles were decided on just 1 tiny building.
That's 16 vs 16 mentality.

I understand a building has small doorways and narrow stairs but since this is an MMO, I expect more stairs, and just bigger places to move around.

Chokepoints are just like the Pipes.

Sure you can defend the choke point, but with enough numbers, the attackers can just push and take over.....This is why this game is 100% Zerg friendly.


If the game was more open(with cover), with a better layout, where people could flank....Then more skillfull/tactical individuals will be more important...Tactics>Numbers.

Now Im not saying, to get rid of the stalemates completely maybe in some parts it could be fun but the game is mostly just that....Stalemates that are won by Zergs.

It's the opposite, actually.

Chokepoints work because they NULLIFY zergs. Instead of approaching en masse, twenty abreast, a zerg is forced to enter a room at one or two at a time. The wider you make an entrance, the more people can enter it simultaneously. The more people that can enter it simultaneously, the harder it is for a smaller army of defenders to face them on an equal footing.

Like, what you're asserting here is, literally, the exact opposite of how bottle-necks and base defence function. lol

[Figment]

Remember peops, Dreamcast also kinda thought it was impossible to take an AMP station now that the jumppads were defender only. ;p

Don't confuse the ladd too much with all these fancy concepts of logic.

[Dreamcast]

It's the opposite, actually.

Chokepoints work because they NULLIFY zergs. Instead of approaching en masse, twenty abreast, a zerg is forced to enter a room at one or two at a time. The wider you make an entrance, the more people can enter it simultaneously. The more people that can enter it simultaneously, the harder it is for a smaller army of defenders to face them on an equal footing.

Like, what you're asserting here is, literally, the exact opposite of how bottle-necks and base defence function. lol

No.....not all choke points are small defenders destroy large ammount of attackers...usually even ammount of defenders vs attackers.


But even if it was like that...What is the only way the attackers can get thru?


ZERG....more and more people rushing in......So I stand corrected, that Zerging is the only way to win.


With bigger/smarter made facilities with actual cover, that was actually designed for 2000 people .....smaller groups with more tactics can destroy a disorganized zerg offense or disorganized large defense.


I have yet to see a 300 scenerio in Planetside 2.. is a game of who can push the hardest, not who can outsmart and out tactic the enemy.

[Dreamcast]

Remember peops, Dreamcast also kinda thought it was impossible to take an AMP station now that the jumppads were defender only. ;p

Don't confuse the ladd too much with all these fancy concepts of logic.

I thought it will lead to stalemates.....and less freedom of movement...Which did.


I still see zergs destroying the defenders super fast.

No more amazing Zurvan Amp station battle now sadly.

[bpostal]

When was the last time giant battles were decided on just 1 tiny building.
...

One building per cap point, plus the spawn room. So not one building, maybe 4 tops.
I think it's more of a base flow issue than 'small openings' issue.

[zulu]

The whole Maps are huge, great for vehicles/Aircraft, very open but when it comes to Facilities, they decide to do everything very tight and small.

...

Their is no strategy in Infantry battles, is just push push...because that all you can do when the map is designed to have all infantry crowded in one single place.

Instead of making the levels bigger, with more freedom so their would be better places to flank thus skill/tactics will matter more....They decide to make fights as crowded as possible so the Empire with the biggest numbers can push most and win.


One of the reasons the Crown is easily defended is because there are only a limited number of angles to attack it (from the southwest and north, with a few other limited funnels). This means that smaller numbers of defenders can actually hold it provided they're alert and respond to all the threats that present themselves.

That is tactics -- setting up defenses, healing the wounded, resupplying maxes, sending out light assaults and infiltrators to flank attacking forces. The attackers are forced to do the same thing, since it's unlikely that they can push a sunderer into a spot that allows their forces to respawn right into the battle easily.

The problem isn't that the maps are too small (in fact, when I read your subject line, I thought, "Yes, some of these facilities need to be much smaller") -- it's that they're far too big to defend effectively. There are too many ways for attackers to flank, and so it's impossible for a smaller force of defenders to defend -- they'll be turned in three directions and flanked from directions four, five, six, and seven over and over again.

People complain about the repitition of attacking and defending the Crown, and I'd agree that it's gotten more than a little tedious, even in the short time I've been playing the game, but the game's designers need to look at why people are so eager to defend it: It's because defending the Crown (as well as attacking it) isn't a curbstomp nine times out of ten. You don't just get rolled over when the opposing force sends in a few sunderers and outspawns you.

Big engagements elsewhere really are just meatgrinders. It's only in small engagements (and a handful of the larger battles) that tactics and individual skill really play a role.

[Mox]

...I'm sorry, you're complaining that PS2 funnels players and there's no open terrain or flanking options? In fact, playing Light Assault, I can't think of any direction I can't attack from.



Did you even press "PLAY" yet? Because that's the exact opposite from what my experience is. In fact, you might be thinking of PS1 here with your pipes analogy. >.>


To me, most facilities remind me of this:

http://img.symworks.com/l_swiss_doorstop.jpg

^ THIS!