Does the Prowler really need a nerf? [Archive]

ChipMHazard

2013-02-28, 09:09 PM

JesNC

2013-02-28, 09:15 PM

Jes, It was a shame that you blew me up :( Otherwise i was onto a world record.

I'm sorry oops: But deployed Prowlers in/around the Crown and TI Alloys make some juicy high threat/extreme menace XP pinatas ;)

Ghoest9

2013-02-28, 09:24 PM

Bases had a design/concept problem - then the devs modified the Prowler to take maximum advantage of the problem.

And here we are.

ChrisLand

2013-02-28, 09:33 PM

Vannie might need a buff. Or a fix for it's shields.

http://youtu.be/CKjPJwJxfBw

Interesting video. That really sucks I'm glad I didn't cert into shields.

ChipMHazard

2013-02-28, 09:36 PM

Vannie might need a buff. Or a fix for it's shields.

http://youtu.be/CKjPJwJxfBw

Heh, yeah that needs to get fixed. That's a nasty bug.

DirtyBird

2013-02-28, 10:39 PM

250 Kills in the space of 15 minutes. My video shows about 5mins of my hugely skillfull play and camping.

Prowler Farming (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v_PlJ_o4Vs)

Yet i still dont feel it needs a nerf.
Careful, you might encourage some past VS players logging back in and re rolling TR causing more "n00bs" to leave the game.

Was not surprised at where this took place.

Mordelicius

2013-02-28, 11:03 PM

Chewy

2013-02-28, 11:27 PM

The farming problem is certainly more of an issue with base design than air or tank balance. No matter how much you nerf either they are going to be able to farm infantry if given the opportunity.

One thing I have never understood about the Prowler, if I've read the damage stats correctly, why does the splash damage of each of rounds deal the same amount of damage as one round from other tanks? Shouldn't the damage be halved just like the direct damage?

Does the Prowler need a nerf? Might need a toning down of its direct damage, dunno.
I didn't like how the buff was handled since I still want a centralized turret, gun stabilization, a small reduction in recoil, independant reloading for each barrel and a special ability that caters to the Prowlers strength. If I had all that then I wouldn't mind if they toned the damage down to, more or less, where it was before.

That splash damage is murder, add in that prowlers have the most ammo and the amount of farm they can do is a wonder to see. Even with all of that if one goes unsupported for to long then it dies rather fast. So unless it's at a great distance then they don't last.

To me it's more than just ammo counts for framing weapons, it's mag sizes and reload times. Look at the Zepher, it can put 6 HE rounds out before reloading. That doesn't sound right to me, wouldn't that be something of a major safety issue to have so many high explosive rounds in one place?

To be honest Id like to see ammo counts, mag sizes, and reload times go to HE being the lowest ammo and highest reload, then HEAT in the middle, and finally AT/AP rounds with the highest ammo counts and fastest reloads. Their all shape charges with different heads at the end of the day, Im just wondering why the heavily farm-able and easy(ier) to hit with versions tend to be the ones with the most ammo.

Sifer2

2013-03-01, 02:27 AM

The video is Prowler HE rounds. Those didn't even get buffed did they? They were always that good. Not really Prowlers fault some people still don't use Flak armor lol. The buff was to Heat/AP.

You could set up a farm like that since launch with Prowler or really any Tank using HE. It would have actually been stronger back before the Flak armor buff.

elementHTTP

2013-03-01, 03:23 AM

I didn't see the problem whit mag riders but they got nerfed
On the other hand prowler is too good vs infantry
Vanguard and Mag need splash dmg radius to be increased

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGuL91pzUCc&list=UU_DqLZEjMHMvSTyi1W89fBw&index=2

Rothnang

2013-03-01, 03:41 AM

So, when will we see Higby admit that his whole "All the tanks are balanced now, everyone who disagrees can't accept facts" thing was out of line and insulting to everyone who saw this coming?

Phreec

2013-03-01, 03:42 AM

Only tweak the Prowler could use is halving its current splashdamage. Both shots dealing the same damage as other tanks' slower reloading rounds is just ridiculous.

Gatekeeper

2013-03-01, 04:40 AM

Nerfing Prowlers vs infantry seems like a no-brainer to me. Before the tank balance pass they were the strongest tank vs infantry, but weaker vs tanks than the Mag. Now they're stronger vs tanks than the Mag - and still the strongest vs infantry. That's not really balance, now is it?

Seems to me that a nerf vs infantry (to the point where it's level with the Van and Mag) is entirely reasonable now. As VS infantry I get killed by Prowlers a lot more than by Vans, something in the order of 2:1 or 3:1.

Twido

2013-03-01, 04:41 AM

You were brave to post this on the official forums, I had a quick look at that thread and retreated back here!

I also am not 100% sure if they need a nerf or not and wouldn't want to make that call without seeing more official data. When the prowler got it's buffs, my instinct was that it was a little too much. But then again those buffs didn't effect the thing that most people complain about (killing infantry) so maybe I was wrong. Having said that, I won't complain if we get a bit of a nerf so long as they don't over do it, two prowler shots should be more powerful than one shot from a single barreled tank.

What does suprise me is that there arn't more NC players asking for buffs, we know from the stats that they lose out in tank vs tank and I strongly believe that they have the worst tank vs infantry as well.

ringring

2013-03-01, 05:30 AM

TR Prowler desperately need a nerf.

Their splash damage kills everything inside a spawnroom. Not only that. It has the highest survivability and dps on anchor mode (can't have both) simply because they destroy any ground opposition.

If they don't fix this soon, it will be "Magrider redux".

A lot of Vanu got used to OP Magriders as the norm. When it got nerfed, a 1:1 k/d was not acceptable to them. This is really a question of when will it get nerfed.

Isn't that spawnroom issue more of a spawnroom issue rather than a prowler issue?

I'm in two minds about a nerf to the prowler. On the one hand the tank to tank balance seems about right. I know the magrider is still the better long range tank for instance.

But regarding it's anti-infantry effectiveness there are 3 iissues to bear in mind.
1. A Darwininian failing on behalf of squishies - don't go head to head with tanks.
2. Base/outpost design. While I like the spawnroom changes they haven't worked. As in other areas the job has been half-finished. They are still as campable as before, you just have to choose to put your tank in a different spot. TI Alloy in particular needs a revamp and by the way a propos of nothing in particular the Crown is boring.
3. Splash damage from HEAT and HE - I won't comment I don't know the figures. I do know from comments from within my outfit that HE as insane at somewhere like TI Alloys.

JesNC

2013-03-01, 05:42 AM

What does suprise me is that there arn't more NC players asking for buffs, we know from the stats that they lose out in tank vs tank and I strongly believe that they have the worst tank vs infantry as well.

From what I could gather, based on personal experience and talking to outfit members, is that many, if not most NC have forsaken their MBT. There's only a single dedicated MBT driver in my outfit and me personally, I only pull a Vanguard if the Lightning is on cooldown.

And you don't need a buff for something you don't even use. It's kinda sad really, the Vanny was one of my favourite vehicles back in 2004.

Ironside

2013-03-01, 05:55 AM

redesign bases and this shit won't happen, they won't of course, they will nerf the prowler instead

Assist

2013-03-01, 06:01 AM

250 Kills in the space of 15 minutes. My video shows about 5mins of my hugely skillfull play and camping.

Yet i still dont feel it needs a nerf.

Do you think the Magrider needed a nerf?

Figment

2013-03-01, 06:14 AM

@bloodworth: point 2 vs point 1. The goal of defending forces you into the open, most players don't even bother with it anymore and I can't say I blame them quitting fights and the game over it. That isn't darwinian though since it would suggest the problem lies with the player who intends to even participate in the game on anything other than siege level. The problem here isn't the player, but the game forcing the player to handle siege units during an insertion period (CC captured by infantry and only infantry being available to fight both types and air at once, while having to cross 130m at times through a crossfire of high rate of fire HE instakill shells, which in the case of the Prowler is clearly more dangerous.

I mean we were fighting BRTD's entire platoon at Camp Connery yesterday (facing 20 tanks, couple AMSes and a dozen infantry or so) with 5-6 people and killed more than half their tanks. Eventhough they had 10% influence, we had no time to even consider dealing with the infantry till the last 2 minutes of the capture. Had we been able to concentrate on the infantry throughout and not been forced to run all over the compound to protect three points two of which under constant tank spam, they wouldn't have had it this easy. With all due respect for BRTD, but they don't win by skill... They get too lazy and reliant on overwhelming numbers and spam to develop their skills. That same thing is sadly true for a lot of opposition.

Point 3 I'd say needs work: halfing damage certainly, though all tanks could probably use a bigger fall off in damage towards the explosion's max radius. Cover is often useless against HE shells, which is in part an issue with design due to a splashable wall being too close to the cover, but in part because the splash simply is huge.

But they really need to do something against screenshake. During a Prowler barrage your aim is horrendous to the point of ridicule.

Baneblade

2013-03-01, 06:16 AM

Twido

2013-03-01, 07:17 AM

I mean we were fighting BRTD's entire platoon at Camp Connery yesterday (facing 20 tanks, couple AMSes and a dozen infantry or so) with 5-6 people and killed more than half their tanks. Eventhough they had 10% influence, we had no time to even consider dealing with the infantry till the last 2 minutes of the capture. Had we been able to concentrate on the infantry throughout and not been forced to run all over the compound to protect three points two of which under constant tank spam, they wouldn't have had it this easy. With all due respect for BRTD, but they don't win by skill... They get too lazy and reliant on overwhelming numbers and spam to develop their skills. That same thing is sadly true for a lot of opposition.

So given that this is a thread about whether the prowler needs a nerf and you say that you and your four friends destroyed half of an armoured column dispite being outnumbered by approximately five to one (infantry and tanks), are you saying the prowler should be buffed?

Sledgecrushr

2013-03-01, 07:21 AM

The prowler doesnt need a nerf. The prowlers HE turret needs a nerf.

Figment

2013-03-01, 07:49 AM

So given that this is a thread about whether the prowler needs a nerf and you say that you and your four friends destroyed half of an armoured column dispite being outnumbered by approximately five to one (infantry and tanks), are you saying the prowler should be buffed?

You do realise how long it took to kill them, how dumb they were to even lose three and how many lives that cost us and that in the end we were doomed to lose?

No? Hmm? We're simply better individual players (as in, forced to be more creative, not even necessarily better players by definition (!)), but we can't beat that firepower and endurance, it is simply too much effort and the end result is null, because if we hadn't killed our own vehicle terms, they'd have gotten new tanks by the end of the fight. So even the applied attrition was absolutely useless by the time they reached the next capture point.

What we did to beat them was AVOID any and all fighting (pretty much leaving when they turned up) and ghost far away regions further south which they couldn't respond to, while they continued ghosting the north of Indar till they bled dry.

So much fun to NOT fight in a war game. Isn't it?

Or are you just going to point out that numbers have the "right to win", as a number of zergfits are currently claiming? In fact to the point of arrogance and cocky behaviour that their numbers win.

They call it "organisation". Yes randomly swarming and swamping an outpost with so many tanks that you can't see the ground anymore and ordering 20 tanks to simply bombard the spawnpoint non-stop so people can't aim and randomly die to unaimed fire is clearly pure organisation and skill.

Sorry, but what exactly is your point? That you didn't get the point?

In general tanks need to require dedicated drivers. Seat switching IMO failed to improve the game play as well. It only provides convenience to the tanker and removes a chance to fight back from the opposition.

The same can be said about ESFs and most other TTKs, which still kill so quickly that you can't fight back. That includes the current HE design, but I only use HEAT and AP and it's almost just as easy to get a direct hit on infantry.

IMO the main reason why this game might fail in the end is because there is a taboo on fighting back at something. Without the possibility of resistance people will avoid resisting and avoid defensive confrontations. And without resistance there's no struggle to satisfy you, so it becomes a boring dance of ghosting. Is that how you want the game to end up?

There are very good reasons people stay to fight at The Crown as they are guaranteed of a fairly even fight and a good chance of kills in either direction. That it's a useless Hamburger Hill in the process is irrelevant since they see there's no point to trying to conquer and hold the rest either: you'll fail at that anyway. So why even bother trying?

There are some fundamental flaws here that link a lot of different systems with one another and it's a shame that it's too complex a picture for most (especially new) players to comprehend. Worse is that most players are out for themselves and not for a system wide balance and "fair play" where they don't like it that an opponent has a chance to beat them. Too many people seem to be under the impression they're fighting PvE Mobs instead of other players and that whatever the conditions those players will choose to be grinded for their cert gain by pretending the opposition could do the same thing as they do: farm, grind and exploit and throw objective gameplay to the wind.

The game is too exhausting for certain groups. To make an analogy, when in the natural world the herbivors die out, the carnivors will follow. Currently the game is well underway of removing the groups that sustain the farmers and zergs by providing targets and resistance.

Ghoest9

2013-03-01, 08:05 AM

What does suprise me is that there arn't more NC players asking for buffs, we know from the stats that they lose out in tank vs tank and I strongly believe that they have the worst tank vs infantry as well.

Most NC feel that given SOEs design philosophy for the Vanguard that buffs wont make it better for any of the stuff that helps you earn lots of certs.

Improving what its good at wont really make it any more attractive.

ChipMHazard

2013-03-01, 08:41 AM

That splash damage is murder, add in that prowlers have the most ammo and the amount of farm they can do is a wonder to see. Even with all of that if one goes unsupported for to long then it dies rather fast. So unless it's at a great distance then they don't last.

To me it's more than just ammo counts for framing weapons, it's mag sizes and reload times. Look at the Zepher, it can put 6 HE rounds out before reloading. That doesn't sound right to me, wouldn't that be something of a major safety issue to have so many high explosive rounds in one place?

To be honest Id like to see ammo counts, mag sizes, and reload times go to HE being the lowest ammo and highest reload, then HEAT in the middle, and finally AT/AP rounds with the highest ammo counts and fastest reloads. Their all shape charges with different heads at the end of the day, Im just wondering why the heavily farm-able and easy(ier) to hit with versions tend to be the ones with the most ammo.

While I do agree with you about both Zephyrs and the HE design choices. Truth be told I would rather have them remove HE rounds from the MBTs all together and leave that to the Lightning.
I wouldn't even mind MBTs being able to carry both HEAT and AP rounds, as long as the amount of HEAT rounds were very limited. I think that the anti infantry aspect of the MBTs should mainly be handled by the secondary gun.

Assist

2013-03-01, 08:52 AM

The Prowler doesn't need a nerf. HE needs a nerf... and along with that, ESF rockets. Tanks should need to use their secondary weapon to engage infantry effectively.

The Vanguard needs something though, but I'm not sure what to buff about it without making it the new FOTMBT.

The Vanguard still has to double clutch shift through like 10 gears to get moving right? If they want to make the Vanguard distinct from the Prowler it's really not that hard, make it tougher to take down. Give it more health/armor. That's what it's supposed to be so why wouldn't they? It's easier to balance by additions than it is by subtractions.

I also disagree that the Prowler doesn't need nerfed. If they thought the Magrider needed to be nerfed I don't see how anyone can say that Prowler doesn't need nerfed. Whatever cannon the HEAT is, that's what the problem is. They basically get a VS VPC/PC all in one since they get double shots. If they want to leave the Prowler as it is than give us back our Magrider and make the Vanguard into what it is supposed to be, a beast of a tank. It's what they should of done in the first place, but everyone screamed nerf and I think finally people are realizing it wasn't the right move to balancing MBT's. Make each one unique so that they're all interesting rather than making them all mundane.

bpostal

2013-03-01, 08:57 AM

Figment

2013-03-01, 09:12 AM

Understandable, I'll send you a PM though.

Sledgecrushr

2013-03-01, 09:24 AM

You do realise how long it took to kill them, how dumb they were to even lose three and how many lives that cost us and that in the end we were doomed to lose?

No? Hmm? We're simply better individual players (as in, forced to be more creative, not even necessarily better players by definition (!)), but we can't beat that firepower and endurance, it is simply too much effort and the end result is null, because if we hadn't killed our own vehicle terms, they'd have gotten new tanks by the end of the fight. So even the applied attrition was absolutely useless by the time they reached the next capture point.

What we did to beat them was AVOID any and all fighting (pretty much leaving when they turned up) and ghost far away regions further south which they couldn't respond to, while they continued ghosting the north of Indar till they bled dry.

So much fun to NOT fight in a war game. Isn't it?

Or are you just going to point out that numbers have the "right to win", as a number of zergfits are currently claiming? In fact to the point of arrogance and cocky behaviour that their numbers win.

They call it "organisation". Yes randomly swarming and swamping an outpost with so many tanks that you can't see the ground anymore and ordering 20 tanks to simply bombard the spawnpoint non-stop so people can't aim and randomly die to unaimed fire is clearly pure organisation and skill.

Sorry, but what exactly is your point? That you didn't get the point?

In general tanks need to require dedicated drivers. Seat switching IMO failed to improve the game play as well. It only provides convenience to the tanker and removes a chance to fight back from the opposition.

The same can be said about ESFs and most other TTKs, which still kill so quickly that you can't fight back. That includes the current HE design, but I only use HEAT and AP and it's almost just as easy to get a direct hit on infantry.

IMO the main reason why this game might fail in the end is because there is a taboo on fighting back at something. Without the possibility of resistance people will avoid resisting and avoid defensive confrontations. And without resistance there's no struggle to satisfy you, so it becomes a boring dance of ghosting. Is that how you want the game to end up?

There are very good reasons people stay to fight at The Crown as they are guaranteed of a fairly even fight and a good chance of kills in either direction. That it's a useless Hamburger Hill in the process is irrelevant since they see there's no point to trying to conquer and hold the rest either: you'll fail at that anyway. So why even bother trying?

There are some fundamental flaws here that link a lot of different systems with one another and it's a shame that it's too complex a picture for most (especially new) players to comprehend. Worse is that most players are out for themselves and not for a system wide balance and "fair play" where they don't like it that an opponent has a chance to beat them. Too many people seem to be under the impression they're fighting PvE Mobs instead of other players and that whatever the conditions those players will choose to be grinded for their cert gain by pretending the opposition could do the same thing as they do: farm, grind and exploit and throw objective gameplay to the wind.

The game is too exhausting for certain groups. To make an analogy, when in the natural world the herbivors die out, the carnivors will follow. Currently the game is well underway of removing the groups that sustain the farmers and zergs by providing targets and resistance.

Well written. I just had to repost because it really makes sense to me.

Twido

2013-03-01, 10:47 AM

Sorry, but what exactly is your point? That you didn't get the point?

My point was merely to point out the hipocracy of complaining about how powerful something is at the same time as saying you defy the odds and beat it anyway because your awsome.

The thing is, I agree with a lot of what your saying about tanks and the game in general it is just that you spoil it my feeling the need to slag off other players and brandish your e-peen.

MrBloodworth

2013-03-01, 11:06 AM

Figment

2013-03-01, 11:59 AM

My point was merely to point out the hipocracy of complaining about how powerful something is at the same time as saying you defy the odds and beat it anyway because your awsome.

That's not hypocritical if you're defying the odds due to poor usage. It in fact examplifies that even extraordinary play (or poor performance of the assailing party) doesn't make a difference.

How's it hypocritical? They're not invulnerable. Nobody claims they're invulnerable.

Figment

2013-03-01, 12:01 PM

I Am confused.

I have not posted in this thread To my Knowledge.

What are you responding to?

Oh sorry, got you mixed up with Hillfort for a second there. :)

(TR all look alike, just like the Chinese!)

Chaff

2013-03-01, 02:14 PM

.
I prefer the idea of buffing Vanny armor (a tad more). It's pretty good now, though.

Only nerf HE in all MBT. Gameplay would probably be better if 2ndary gun was necessary for closer to 1/2 the MBT's softie kills. Not sure if leaving HE strong in Lightnings is good for game weapon spamming issue(s).

I prefer Air-to-Air mechanics in-game that don't leave much room for air to spam infantry. Same goes for armor. I'd prefer a game where mechanics encourage armor vs armor, and not so much infantry spammage. Easy kills are not good when they become this prevelent through-out the game.

I play all 3 empires & have never felt overly superior in any MBT - besides the Mag - prior to the recent nerfs it got. I don't want them watered down any more. I like them different. I think MBT are reasonably balanced 1-v-1. There must be uniqueness to ea empire MBT, or we will homoginaize the game to where there can be no interest to it. There needs to be compelling differences to ea empire to encourage interest & loyalty.

The overall Low-POP of VS doesn't seem to be getting the attention it should. I know the element of Jerk-de-Soleil Rainbow Coalition Spandex has to work against them somewhat, but they do have cool weapons & tech. Sounds lame, but either the color scheme, spandex, or the "alien" look of their gear is too far "out there" for most of the gaming population. Methinks the game also needs to really look at ways to help balance game Empire POP more (per server, not per cont so much).
.

ringring

2013-03-01, 03:12 PM

Oh sorry, got you mixed up with Hillfort for a second there. :)

(TR all look alike, just like the Chinese!)

Aha!

Yes, I agree with you about the design forcing players to leave the safe areas.

Ultimately it's the same old outpost and base issues that we've been talking about since August.

The devs have made changes, many of which seem fine and yet the players once the players adjust the problem remains.

These days I hardly ever get out of my tank even on pain of excommunication and when I do have to do it I run into a cloaker with an SMG which is a lot less fun than sitting and going spam spam spam....

Varsam

2013-03-01, 03:20 PM

(TR all look alike, just like the Chinese!)

That's bad form. No need for racism.

MrMak

2013-03-01, 03:32 PM

One thing is also players dont realy take advantage of base design. For instance i STILL see verry few people utilising the tunnel system in Amp Stations and Tech Plants. Heck using the extra exits from the Biolab spawn seems to be too much for some people.

Also some of the small post GU2 spanw rooms seem to have too many windows and dors pluged up. I understand when its pluged up so it doesnt have a direct line of sight on the controll point or the only road leading into the base but in some outposts it seems like its too much. Perhaps the anti air roofs shpoould be higher but with angled shields stil lgiving the same protection to people near the edges of the "mid floor". Right now they often helps vehicles with high explosive weaponry.

Figment

2013-03-01, 06:34 PM

That's bad form. No need for racism.

Frogs also all look alike, but do you hear the french complain?

(You need to learn to not confuse racism with mild nationality jokes. It's people like you that get offended by Top Gear of all things.)

Varsam

2013-03-03, 08:05 PM

Frogs also all look alike, but do you hear the french complain?

(You need to learn to not confuse racism with mild nationality jokes. It's people like you that get offended by Top Gear of all things.)

You need to learn that what you consider "mild" may not be so to everyone. It's people like you that perpetuate cultural stereotypes and ignorance.

AnotherBrother

2013-03-03, 08:29 PM

I read a Higby post, he wants the TR tanks to do the same damage to infantry with 1 reload so that it is in-line with the other 2 MBT's

psijaka

2013-03-04, 09:01 AM

Well, HE is getting a nerf AND the Prowler is getting a nerf. Good thing too.

Glad that you posted this Pella; really emphasises the fact that stats like XP/minute and k/d are meaningless.

JeffBeefjaw

2013-03-04, 09:18 AM

Pella, from today when we met, so amusing but it has to be changed :)

Admittedly this was done at the notorious TI Alloys spot.

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/4950/planetside2201303041415.jpg

Incase it's too small that's 202/0

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/4950/planetside2201303041415.jpg

Maarvy

2013-03-04, 09:22 AM

I think the tank nerfs are all taken from current game whines without taking in to account the evolution of other parts of the game .

For example the Magriders mountain goat ability was nerfed big time , but that happened right at the same time as anihilator rockets were becoming available and other lockons fixed . If the magrider could climb those hills today would you still see 5 of them perched over the spawn room at westhighlands , seabed , etc etc etc .... I dont think so .

The he splash needs to be 1/2 damage per shell like Direct damage is , other than that I have no problem with prowlers .

Mag needs a little something something movement wise .

And vanguard needs its toys fixed bigtime + maybe a extra AT rounds worth of front and side armour .

Shamrock

2013-03-04, 11:52 AM

I could never understand the dev logic of, hey guys the TR are getting owned in their prowlers by Mags so lets buff HE/HEAT so they can farm infantry even more effectively and have even less reason to engage Mags.

Plus the whole argument of Prowlers being so awful versus Mags is magnified by the fact that most TR spec them for anti-infantry whereas 90% of the VS go with anti-armour/Saron so its a no-brainer that they will have an edge.

MrBloodworth

2013-03-04, 11:55 AM

When was HE/Heat buffed for TR only exactly?

Using the stock gun is not "Specing for Infantry".

Is the Vulcan an anti Infantry gun now?

Also, the notion that its only TR that shell buildings, towers and spawns is completely false. Its the standard mode of play of the game. Because of many base layouts, its the first thing to happen.

ChipMHazard

2013-03-04, 12:14 PM

The HE round was never buffed and the HEAT rounds only had their direct damage buffed, so I agree with MrBlood.

Bags

2013-03-04, 12:38 PM

how is the prowler over powered?

Assist

2013-03-04, 12:39 PM

The HE round was never buffed and the HEAT rounds only had their direct damage buffed, so I agree with MrBlood.

HEAT had overall damage buffed in GU02 not just direct damage, and had their projectile speed increased as well in that patch.

ChipMHazard

2013-03-04, 12:45 PM

HEAT had overall damage buffed in GU02 not just direct damage, and had their projectile speed increased as well in that patch.

Nope, the indirect damage was never buffed. Just the direct.

"Direct hit damage only. Splash damage is unchanged." http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/17n43c/update_02_mbt_changes_via_mhigby/

Edit: Added link for those wondering where I got the quote.

Satanam

2013-03-04, 12:55 PM

The Prowler doesn't need a nerf. HE needs a nerf... and along with that, ESF rockets. Tanks should need to use their secondary weapon to engage infantry effectively.

The Vanguard needs something though, but I'm not sure what to buff about it without making it the new FOTMBT.
Rocket Pods don't need a nerf, HE does (I hope not an exaggerated nerf). Nothing in ESFs need a nerf.

The HE round was never buffed and the HEAT rounds only had their direct damage buffed, so I agree with MrBlood.
Nope, the indirect damage was never buffed. Just the direct.

"Direct hit damage only. Splash damage is unchanged." http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/17n43c/update_02_mbt_changes_via_mhigby/

Edit: Added link for those wondering where I got the quote.
Nice quote. By the way, Prowler is already meant to be nerfed on GU04, not a big problem anymore. I hope they stop complaining about it, and I hope they don't nerf it until it's useless. One thing I don't like here is that (sometimes) they make it overpowered and then underpowered, instead of adjusting it by nerfing a bit each time until it's balanced. Let's hope it's really balanced by now.

JeffBeefjaw

2013-03-04, 09:03 PM

The boil of this is true artillery and they will make it. The OS replacement, empire specific and the mobile unit, cheeky :)

Bunk

2013-03-04, 09:52 PM

If you want to nerf the prowler nerf the rocket pods as well, farmers will just switch to that.

Empra

2013-03-04, 11:11 PM

I do think the Prowler needs the nerf, it's just to stop the one shot instakills with 2 bullet in the chamber. It's pretty simple.

If anything I think a good prowler fix would be to tweak the way it shoots a little rather than adjust any stats. Except the upcoming nerf. As long as the Prowler can get two shots off in enough time it shouldnt make a huge difference except less kills vs infantry.

I do pretty ok in the vanguard as it is. I trust the devs to balance the game, it isn't easy and we should be patient.

Reaver needs love imo though as I will keep saying :P ;)

Figment

2013-03-05, 03:50 AM

If you want to nerf the prowler nerf the rocket pods as well, farmers will just switch to that.

Did they ever stop using those then? :p

Pella

2013-03-05, 04:02 AM

This is only really possible at TI alloys and certain towers. + You need a level of team work, AMMO Trucks, Engineers and so on. Along with 100s of stupid players who run through the front of the spawns over and over. I killed a BR54 yesterday 9 times in a row.

Also If you even think about taking on a Vanguard/Magrider with HE ammo your plane stupid. I can only describe the locked down HE prowler is PS1's Flail :D

JeffBeefjaw

2013-03-05, 06:13 AM

Amazes me as well that they keep re spawning just to be slayed by vehicles with a far superior position. These sort of k/d's are not possible without numerous players with a death wish.

ChipMHazard

2013-03-05, 07:08 AM

Did they ever stop using those then? :p

Heh yeah I was thinking the same thing. "Since when did they stop using the???".

ringring

2013-03-05, 07:56 AM

Amazes me as well that they keep re spawning just to be slayed by vehicles with a far superior position. These sort of k/d's are not possible without numerous players with a death wish.

Me too, and it's not difficult for infantry to take out a tank if they have the superior position on the ground.

And when Pella got those kills, no doubt therre were other tanks a little way along that got similar. It must be first day of the Somme type of stuff.

Gimpylung

2013-03-05, 08:06 AM

I think we're getting closer to the real issue finally. Idiots who get farmed repeatedly and then rush off to make an [insert weapon] is OP thread.

Buff average player intelligence.

Satanam

2013-03-05, 09:00 AM

Well... The Prowler issue will be fixed on GU04, so I don't know why people worry about it right now, as it'll be nerfed to a balanced level (I hope they don't make it an useless MBT, but seems like they'll just make it 2 shots needed to kill a full HP player).
As for Hellfire Rocket Pods, those guys complaining need to understand a bit about aircraft in games (and real life too), they're not made to cause low effect and deal low damage, they're meant to support with medium~high damage, but being easily destructible.

Figment

2013-03-05, 09:00 AM

I think we're getting closer to the real issue finally. Idiots who get farmed repeatedly and then rush off to make an [insert weapon] is OP thread.

Buff average player intelligence.

Tbh, I'm kinda questioning the intelligence of people that think players shouldn't ever leave the spawnroom.

Idiots who farm repeatedly and then rush off to make an "[insert weapon] is NOT OP thread, everyone else is just stupid to not avoid fighting it" post.

Buff average player intelligence indeed.

Is it dangerous to get outside? Yes.

Should you get outside. Yes and no. Yes, because the objective is outside and in order to win that objective must not fall in enemy hands. No, because if you do go outside, you lose. If you don't go outside, you lose.

Conflicting answer: forced to try to get outside despite of obvious danger. Since the objective is more important than K/D, the answer is yes for players who expect the game to actually ALLOW one to win by playing defense en situ, rather than fall back and counter-attack.

If the game doesn't allow its own objectives to be met, the game is flawed.

And before you say "it's intended to be played this way", no, it's not:

"Don't give up, you can still win this!"
"Get out there, the NC needs you!"

Does that sound like: "Give up, spawn somewhere else!" or "Stay inside, wait for the inevitable loss!" ?

I don't think so.

What's wrong here is that players grow accustomed to exploiting bad design and think that adapting to it by ignoring the design flaws and avoiding intended gameplay, removes any grounds for complaints.

Sorry, doesn't work that way Gimpy. You should know better than that.

Do people keep running outside? Of course they do. What else can they try aside from giving up (which includes falling back and letting the facility be captured)? Clearly the fight is not balanced anywhere near fair or fun for both sides (and no, that doesn't at all mean even pops). How the hell could anyone claim this is intended gameplay?

If it was, the devs wouldn't still be looking for ways to fix the game. You don't have to fix what isn't broken. This is broken: they want people to fight over control of these bases, not just take them and retake them. Currently, in most cases there's no fight, there's just slaughter. To a degree Prowler double barrel HE farming is part of the issue, but the base layouts allow it. In fact, all these units with HE allow it in combination with base layout. The frequency of one hit kill, large area of effect rate of fire of a lot of units is from my point of view extremely high. If you have 100m to cross to a CC and your opponent gets 8x2 rounds or a couple clips of 1-10 rounds, each with the capacity to instagib, then I'm sorry, but you'll never be able to make it there. Thus there's a design flaw.

And then even if you get there, you will fail because 1. there's a lot of enemies there 2. even if you clear those out once, they'll come back 3. the tanks and other HE units will fire into that same room (provided there IS a room, rather than an open field area to hold) and kill you anyway.

Of course base layouts are the biggest problem here, but that doesn't mean HE hasn't some OP issues. HE in general, but the Prowler is clearly the best farmer together with the Liberator. Thing with the Prowler is, it's a solo unit.

Look, nobody denies that under the current circumstance, it's better to defend outside of the base. Everyone should know that you can adapt by giving up on it and admitting you failed to defend, even if not by your fault but the game's design. The thing is that players who do want to play the game as intended know damn well there are flaws. People who abuse the flaws tend to ignore them because it's in their favour.

I kinda question if Pella really had fun with the opening vid, or that he grew ashamed of his own success. I would be utterly and horribly ashamed if this was the way I'd go and win fights. Where is the struggle? Where is the effort? Where is the fun of overcoming the resistance by your skill? I know Akapella to be an excellent quality and creative player. To see him reduced to assembly belt gameplay is just sad. :/

moosepoop

2013-03-05, 09:10 AM

i maxed out my anchor mode and its normal for me to kill 4-8 infantry in seconds.

many times i have single handedly changed the tide of battle.

so yes, i think the prowler nerf against infantry is needed. we can still kick magrider ass, and thats good enough.

i think the first shot should take away 90% of hp. if it only takes 50% hp, then its not a good idea.

MrBloodworth

2013-03-05, 09:40 AM

Tbh, I'm kinda questioning the intelligence of people that think players shouldn't ever leave the spawnroom.

Base designs promote farming.

Figment

2013-03-05, 10:10 AM

Base designs promote farming.

Yep. HE design too.

Together you get:

http://www.gamalive.com/images/screen/20852-agricultural-simulator-2013.jpg

(note the age stamp).

Gimpylung

2013-03-05, 10:28 AM

Tbh, I'm kinda questioning the intelligence ......... belt gameplay is just sad. :/

Think you're misinterpreting what I meant Figgy. Granted I didn't give you much to go on.

So many threads seem to revolve around OP/UP discussions as if that's the issue with the game.

As you correctly point out, the gameplay is flawed. Base design is atrocious. There is no defensive game, only offense, the only meaningful rewards come from farming, being farmed is foolish, futile and avoidable. NC could have held TI all night and the TR would be the most grateful because of the massive amount of xp they earned from siege farming them.

But, the majority of the players that got farmed by Pella there will likely see the Prowler as the issue and not the ridiculous capture mechanics and terrible design of TI alloys(and the majority of all the other bases).

So like it or not, as the game stands currently, Pella was playing it correctly there and the NC should have all given up on TI and found their own farm. No point holding an outpost thats gonna flipflop a dozen times in a night if all you are doing is providing XP fo the attackers.

It's a crying shame that the game is in this state, and I want the same game you want Figgy.

So I'll stand by my original post. Because if Pella links this to the official forum I'll wager the discussion will be about OP Prowler HE and not about the terrible state of the game design.

Xaine

2013-03-05, 03:08 PM

All the boo hoo about the Magrider, while the Prowler can kill one infantry with each of its rounds.

The TR bias has continued from PS1 I see.

Knew I rolled the wrong faction.

MrBloodworth

2013-03-05, 03:17 PM

All the boo hoo about the Magrider, while the Prowler can kill one infantry with each of its rounds.

The TR bias has continued from PS1 I see.

Knew I rolled the wrong faction.

Irony is strong in this one. Faction bias accusations and a factional pity party all in one.

The Magrider can also one shot infantry, but don't let facts stop yah!

Figment

2013-03-05, 03:22 PM

Think you're misinterpreting what I meant Figgy. Granted I didn't give you much to go on.

So many threads seem to revolve around OP/UP discussions as if that's the issue with the game.

Don't know what's UP, since everything is OP. ;) Well, maybe not G2A. Bit easy to avoid.

As you correctly point out, the gameplay is flawed. Base design is atrocious. There is no defensive game, only offense, the only meaningful rewards come from farming, being farmed is foolish, futile and avoidable. NC could have held TI all night and the TR would be the most grateful because of the massive amount of xp they earned from siege farming them.

Outfit mate of mine checked his xp gain for attacking or defending The Crown on different empires. Attacking got him far more. Probably because you can just sit back at a distance and fire at two sides, one of which showing their butt, one of which firing at the front line troops.

But, the majority of the players that got farmed by Pella there will likely see the Prowler as the issue and not the ridiculous capture mechanics and terrible design of TI alloys(and the majority of all the other bases).

So like it or not, as the game stands currently, Pella was playing it correctly there and the NC should have all given up on TI and found their own farm. No point holding an outpost thats gonna flipflop a dozen times in a night if all you are doing is providing XP fo the attackers.

That still makes the HE extremely easy to spam with though. Even if the base was better designed, anything trying to come out of a more defensible base would still face spam.

It's a crying shame that the game is in this state, and I want the same game you want Figgy.

So I'll stand by my original post. Because if Pella links this to the official forum I'll wager the discussion will be about OP Prowler HE and not about the terrible state of the game design.

Oh I understood Pella's OP and I catch your drift (too much focus on the single factor), but in my mind it's a bit of a combination of factors, including HE spam. But yes, base design should have accounted for splash by placing the splashable areas further from the merlons.

Though an even bigger issue to me is not the HE design itself, but the sheer amount of it due to the sheer amount of tanks. Because Pella isn't the only tank out there. Every day I see 30 tanks or more drive towards a single outpost. It's just ridiculous and hampers tank play (traffic jams, ramming) and infantry play (people getting TKed by accident, too large a volume of tanks to fight, too little incentive for infantry fighting).

(OP is kinda the case with rocket pods though: too accurate, too large a clip IMO, perhaps a little bit too splashy. Too soloable and rewarding unit right now, I mean, it kills AA MAXes just a bit faster than the MAX kills them if both start firing at the same time - which in case of a decent pilot, should be normal procedure. Can be nerfed a bit if it's used for AV (larger targets))

Takoita

2013-03-05, 06:27 PM

+1 to pretty much all Figment said here.

Also, HE is insane regardless on which tank it is installed. The problem with it (besides damage bleeding through walls bug) is that HE still deals way too much damage to armor for something that is supposed to be an AI speciality. And that reload speed nerf was a bandaid fix that didn't change the number of people rolling HE anyway. Anything else is base design problem.

I feel the same in regards to frag grenade changes which, IMHO, were completely unnecessary. Yes, flak armor is way too important to allow many of the other options to take its place but that could've been solved by either improving their effectiveness or delegating half of them into another brand new slot (or both).

Rocket pods could use some adjusting though.

Xaine

2013-03-05, 09:08 PM

Irony is strong in this one. Faction bias accusations and a factional pity party all in one.

The Magrider can also one shot infantry, but don't let facts stop yah!

The Prowler can one shot infantry, with both of the shots it fires - in the time a Magrider can fire one.

This means that the Prowler has 100% more potential to kill infantry.

Not sure how you can dispute it.

But don't let the facts stop yah!

Chewy

2013-03-05, 10:11 PM

What's wrong here is that players grow accustomed to exploiting bad design and think that adapting to it by ignoring the design flaws and avoiding intended gameplay, removes any grounds for complaints.

This is a big part of the argument on what an exploit is in gaming. We all should know of strafe jumping and how that "skill" alone made some games into what they are now. When in truth that "skill" was a rather big exploit that the players took advantage of in times before patches could fix such things. Why do you guys think strafe jumping was removed and/or not seen in near ANYTHING made today? It became and still is THE thing that matters the most within competitive gaming of games like Quake. If you don't use strafe jumping then you will fail no matter how good you are. Why do we not see things like that anymore? Because they are exploits and Devs can fix the damned things, maybe even before damage can be done.

It's gotten to the point where people look for exploits without thinking about it and call them skills just because it's in the game. Well I have something to tell about that. We are all human and humans are a bunch of idiots, developers included. Some things are missed and some are not, live with the fixes to their works and find the next thing to abuse so it can be see and fixed.

I hear that using a pistol in a tanks rear left tire can disable it, maybe some of you should go and try it.:rolleyes:

Satanam

2013-03-05, 10:13 PM

The Prowler can one shot infantry, with both of the shots it fires - in the time a Magrider can fire one.

This means that the Prowler has 100% more potential to kill infantry.

Not sure how you can dispute it.

But don't let the facts stop yah!
It'll be 2 shots needed to kill infantry with 100% HP and shield on GU04.

Xaine

2013-03-05, 10:38 PM

It'll be 2 shots needed to kill infantry with 100% HP and shield on GU04.

Indeed it will, that sounds more balanced. Don't you think?

Your TR chum seems to disagree.

Satanam

2013-03-06, 08:35 AM

Indeed it will, that sounds more balanced. Don't you think?

Your TR chum seems to disagree.
Yeah, it'll be balanced and I also already stated that I liked it even I'm a TR. I don't like overpowered neither underpowered things for any side. That said, yeah I believe it'll make all MBTs balanced by now. I just hope people don't keep saying "it's still OP" like when they nerfed ESFs and people still thought it was OP.
There's also some guys talking about it on this thread, lol. It's useful if you know how to use it, but not OP. You can kill it easily, and you can hit it even if you're using a carbine. I'd say this game is close to be balanced now (with GU04), and probably it'll be. I'm just thinking about how it'll be when they release new stuff (weapons, vehicles, maps, etc). Then, it'll start again and there we go with so many nerf threads.

ringring

2013-03-06, 09:10 AM

Indeed it will, that sounds more balanced. Don't you think?

Your TR chum seems to disagree.

Possibly.

I wonder whether 2 shots will be possible, the reason being is that the first shot kicks the barrel off centre so that the second shot hits elsewhere, so maybe we'll have to aim-shoot-hit(assuming a good shot) - re-aim and so on.

Of course it will be easier when your target is say infront of a rock that allows splash damage to play a part so that it's near miss #1 added to near miss #2 = kill.

Q. Can a magrider or vanny (with good aim and a smidgeon of luck) one-shot say an infantry-man on a direct hit?

ChipMHazard

2013-03-06, 09:12 AM

Q. Can a magrider or vanny (with good aim and a smidgeon of luck) one-shot say an infantry-man on a direct hit?

Of course, since they'e always dealt more damage on a direct hit than the Prowler.
Not that the Prowler can't one-shot infantry with a direct hit, a direct HE round shouldn't be able to AFAIK.

MrBloodworth

2013-03-06, 09:33 AM

Indeed it will, that sounds more balanced. Don't you think?

Your TR chum seems to disagree.

Correcting your discrepancy is not disagreeing with an up coming change.

Tenhi

2013-03-06, 08:57 PM

Of course, since they'e always dealt more damage on a direct hit than the Prowler.
Not that the Prowler can't one-shot infantry with a direct hit, a direct HE round shouldn't be able to AFAIK.

I allways thought that direct hits deal directdmg+splahdmg? If that is still true every tank shell one-shots infantry if you directly hit it.

About the Prowler HE nerf... I guess everyone saw that one comming. Is it justified? Well... Prowler HE deals 2*1000 Splash with a 4.175sec cycle (3.175 reload +0.5 refire delay + 0.5 refire delay) without Anchor Mode, Vanguard HE has a 5sec reload time and only 1*1000 Splash, Magrider has 4.75sec reload with 1*1000 Splash.

Whiteagle

2013-03-06, 11:36 PM

Do you think the Magrider needed a nerf?
Uh... yeah, considering you had a tank that could sidestep incoming rockets and shells....

...And you barely even got tickled by the Nerf bat, they changed your secondary main cannon and fixed what was apparently broken movement mechanics not working as intended...

I also disagree that the Prowler doesn't need nerfed. If they thought the Magrider needed to be nerfed I don't see how anyone can say that Prowler doesn't need nerfed. Whatever cannon the HEAT is, that's what the problem is. They basically get a VS VPC/PC all in one since they get double shots. If they want to leave the Prowler as it is than give us back our Magrider and make the Vanguard into what it is supposed to be, a beast of a tank. It's what they should of done in the first place, but everyone screamed nerf and I think finally people are realizing it wasn't the right move to balancing MBT's. Make each one unique so that they're all interesting rather than making them all mundane.
...Wait, what?!?!

Assist, how bad of a tanker ARE you?
An HE nerf I can understand, but how is our default Tank Turrent overpowered?

i maxed out my anchor mode and its normal for me to kill 4-8 infantry in seconds.

many times i have single handedly changed the tide of battle.

so yes, i think the prowler nerf against infantry is needed. we can still kick magrider ass, and thats good enough.

i think the first shot should take away 90% of hp. if it only takes 50% hp, then its not a good idea.
Eh, I'd drop it to 75%, but honestly the Prowler is a clusterfrack...

I mean, it had one of the worst turret designs for anti-tank combat with a double side-by-side barrel shotgun mounted on one side, with the basic explanations that it's "LOLZ, Starcraft Siege Tank!"
Problem is, this isn't a Single Player RTS, and even if it was active area denial by bombardment weaponry would only be useful against SOFT targets.
Enemy armor requires precision, which really isn't the TR's strong suit anyways.
Thus we Terrain players have a tank designed to lob a bunch of shells down range, and when we run out of zerglings caught out in the open we turn our guns towards suppressing hardened fortifications.

...Of course this games development team started off thinking that "hardened fortification" is just a wall or a shack in the middle of nowhere, which really isn't helpful when you have dozens of explosives being thrown at you.

Like Figment has been saying for most of this thread, bases need overhauls to design, otherwise they're just going to be reefs to fish all those zergling fish out of.

All the boo hoo about the Magrider, while the Prowler can kill one infantry with each of its rounds.

The TR bias has continued from PS1 I see.

Knew I rolled the wrong faction.
Hey buddy, next time you take a tank shell to the face let me know how it works out?

Our turret is NOT designed with Accuracy in mind, it's a double side-by-side barreled shotgun mounted on the FAR left.
If you knew anything about side-by-side barreled shotguns, you'd know that you have to adjust your aim for each barrel.
So while we do have two shots per reload, realise that a Prowler has to point his rectal at one infantryman, then eyeball his second shot a little to the right of the next.

I allways thought that direct hits deal directdmg+splahdmg? If that is still true every tank shell one-shots infantry if you directly hit it.

About the Prowler HE nerf... I guess everyone saw that one comming. Is it justified? Well... Prowler HE deals 2*1000 Splash with a 4.175sec cycle (3.175 reload +0.5 refire delay + 0.5 refire delay) without Anchor Mode, Vanguard HE has a 5sec reload time and only 1*1000 Splash, Magrider has 4.75sec reload with 1*1000 Splash.
Yeah, this is why a Nerf to the Prowlers HE is no skin of my nose; as long as it's still doing 750 Splash it's still going to out DPS the other two.
Yeah, the Splash won't be an instant kill shot like the other two, but we'll still be able to spread more anti-infantry damage around a wider area.

Tenhi

2013-03-07, 01:45 AM

Yeah, this is why a Nerf to the Prowlers HE is no skin of my nose; as long as it's still doing 750 Splash it's still going to out DPS the other two.

Yeah, the Splash won't be an instant kill shot like the other two, but we'll still be able to spread more anti-infantry damage around a wider area.

That is if it does 750 Splashdamage. My guess is that they will go lower. If they were to balance it after DPS it would drop under 500... then again Vanguard and Magrider arent balanced like that either. My guess would be something like 600-650dmg.

You will still out-dps the VS/NC and you can still splash a larger area.

What I fear way more is the nerf to all the explosion radii for vehicle weapons <_<. If they really nerf ALL vehicle weapons that will include HE, HEAT, AP (lol), AI secondaries, Dalton, Zepher, Bulldogs, Furies etc etc.

Depending on how hard they nerf it... the Prowler HE wont be a problem anyways xD.

ChipMHazard

2013-03-07, 05:06 AM

I allways thought that direct hits deal directdmg+splahdmg? If that is still true every tank shell one-shots infantry if you directly hit it.

Good question, I don't know. I guess it would make sense if that was so.

"Prowler HEAT / HE rounds have had their damage reduced to no longer 1-shot kill infantry, killing a full health infantry will require both Prowler rounds to be fired. This does not affect vs. vehicle damage."

That part makes me think that the two are seperate.

psijaka

2013-03-07, 07:36 AM

◦Explosive radius from ALL vehicle based damage sources have been reduced, this does not affect vehicle vs vehicle direct hit damage, only splash damage vs infantry.
◦Prowler HEAT / HE rounds have had their damage reduced to no longer 1-shot kill infantry, killing a full health infantry will require both Prowler rounds to be fired. This does not affect vs. vehicle damage.

Just thought that I would repeat the relevant part of Higby's GU4 post.

As an infantry player I think that this is long overdue, and that it will hopefully apply to rocket pods as well as ground based vehicles. Excessive splash area of effect is a pretty low skill way of killing someone; only encourages farming.

I was defending TI on Ceres last night; we suffered intense bombardment for what must have been an hour at least, first from TR, and then from VS, who eventually pushed us out. It is possible to survive the AoE spam by using the back entrance and staying inside and camping the control point, but it does get tiresome after a while.

I'm really hoping that the splash AoE and Prowler Heat/HE direct hit nerf will reduce the incentive to farm spawns. There is nothing more guaranteed to put a newcomer off the game than being repeatedly spawn killed in this way.

MrBloodworth

2013-03-07, 11:01 AM

Move the spawns to an underground series of rooms then, put the SCU down there too. Would create more Inf only areas, remove the spawns from the barrage, and promote defense. May even help with rendering populations as it could be occluded.

Putting spawns on the perimeter of bases is the problem.

ringring

2013-03-07, 11:10 AM

I allways thought that direct hits deal directdmg+splahdmg? If that is still true every tank shell one-shots infantry if you directly hit it.

About the Prowler HE nerf... I guess everyone saw that one comming. Is it justified? Well... Prowler HE deals 2*1000 Splash with a 4.175sec cycle (3.175 reload +0.5 refire delay + 0.5 refire delay) without Anchor Mode, Vanguard HE has a 5sec reload time and only 1*1000 Splash, Magrider has 4.75sec reload with 1*1000 Splash.

Where do you get your data from.

I doesn't make any sense that prowler has twice the firepower simply because it has twice the guns. Normal guns don't work that way.

Also, a couple of months ago Higby actually said that all tanks havee identical dps.

MrBloodworth

2013-03-07, 11:13 AM

The two barrels is the mechanism used to create the empire defining feature. IE: Re-fire rate. It is not one gun, its a higher re-fire rate.

They do not strafe or always have the strongest armor facing forward, they do not punch with high damage or have a shield.

Twido

2013-03-07, 12:12 PM

This is a big part of the argument on what an exploit is in gaming. We all should know of strafe jumping and how that "skill" alone made some games into what they are now. When in truth that "skill" was a rather big exploit that the players took advantage of in times before patches could fix such things. Why do you guys think strafe jumping was removed and/or not seen in near ANYTHING made today? It became and still is THE thing that matters the most within competitive gaming of games like Quake. If you don't use strafe jumping then you will fail no matter how good you are. Why do we not see things like that anymore? Because they are exploits and Devs can fix the damned things, maybe even before damage can be done.

It's gotten to the point where people look for exploits without thinking about it and call them skills just because it's in the game. Well I have something to tell about that. We are all human and humans are a bunch of idiots, developers included. Some things are missed and some are not, live with the fixes to their works and find the next thing to abuse so it can be see and fixed.

I hear that using a pistol in a tanks rear left tire can disable it, maybe some of you should go and try it.:rolleyes:

These are my thoughts exactly (although you wrote it far better than I would have done)

Tenhi

2013-03-07, 12:21 PM

Good question, I don't know. I guess it would make sense if that was so.

"Prowler HEAT / HE rounds have had their damage reduced to no longer 1-shot kill infantry, killing a full health infantry will require both Prowler rounds to be fired. This does not affect vs. vehicle damage."

That part makes me think that the two are seperate.

The "This does not affect vs. vehicle damage." part is simple. Vehicles dont take splash damage. If they only nerf the splash damage (and thats what I belive Higby meant?) then the dmg vs. vehicles is the same because they only take the unchanged direct damage. Prowler HE has a direct damge of 650, if they still want you to one-shot Infantry with direct hits you need, depending on Flak Armor and Nanoweave, 250 - 700 splash damage.

On a sidenote. Does anyone know if direct hits first deal their direct damage and then the splash or the other way around? Would be intresting to know for Flak Armor Targets because the 50% only apply to your HP and not to your shield as far as I know.

Where do you get your data from.

I doesn't make any sense that prowler has twice the firepower simply because it has twice the guns. Normal guns don't work that way.

Also, a couple of months ago Higby actually said that all tanks have identical dps.

The Prowler had lower splash damge during the beta... but that got buffed because the prowler sucked against tanks... a wise decision by SOE. If you want the data there is an (old) Spreadsheet from Beta (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Amnj8jnZLDIOdDRjMURYRlY0bDlpNjNfSW11MV83X 1E&gid=0)... and innocivs site ps2calc.com. ps2calc doesnt have the splash values but the correct reload times etc.

Oh and Higby never mentioned that the Tanks have the identical dps. If he ever stated that I would love to see a source.

The two barrels is the mechanism used to create the empire defining feature. IE: Re-fire rate. It is not one gun, its a higher re-fire rate.

They do not strafe or always have the strongest armor facing forward, they do not punch with high damage or have a shield.

Actually if both Prowler shells hit it does more damage than one Vanguard shell ;). Pre GU2 it was the exact same damage... a Prowler shell was exactly half a Vanguard shell.

Also saying its the empire defining feature doesnt mean its allowed to be imbalanced? Its like me saying I want 100km/h strafe because thats the defining feature of the Magrider is strafing.

Oh and dont mention "strongest armor facing forward"... thats not an inherently good thing. While its cool at long range where your enemy comes from one direction its pretty bad at urban warfare... simply because you have to turn your whole tank to see whats around you. The Magrider, while being great at long ranges, has a horrible situational awareness and thus sucks at close range (you are basically blind to everything outside of your 90° front arc).

ChipMHazard

2013-03-07, 12:29 PM

The "This does not affect vs. vehicle damage." part is simple. Vehicles dont take splash damage. If they only nerf the splash damage (and thats what I belive Higby meant?) then the dmg vs. vehicles is the same because they only take the unchanged direct damage. Prowler HE has a direct damge of 650, if they still want you to one-shot Infantry with direct hits you need, depending on Flak Armor and Nanoweave, 250 - 700 splash damage.

On a sidenote. Does anyone know if direct hits first deal their direct damage and then the splash or the other way around? Would be intresting to know for Flak Armor Targets because the 50% only apply to your HP and not to your shield as far as I know.

Makes sense and after having looked at the ps2calc I would agree with you.

I would really like to know how exactly rounds deal damage.

MrBloodworth

2013-03-07, 12:35 PM

Actually if both Prowler shells hit it does more damage than one Vanguard shell ;). Pre GU2 it was the exact same damage... a Prowler shell was exactly half a Vanguard shell.

Thats the higher rate of fire, it comes in a two shot succession.

Also saying its the empire defining feature doesnt mean its allowed to be imbalanced?

Not what I said. I bought it up, because the more and more empire asymmetry gets whittled away, the more we loose those identities. DPS is not the defining feature in a Planetside title.

Tenhi

2013-03-07, 12:51 PM

Thats the higher rate of fire, it comes in a two shot succession.

Not what I said. I bought it up, because the more and more empire asymmetry gets whittled away, the more we loose those identities. DPS is not the defining feature in a Planetside title.

Where do they whittle away the asymmetry for the tanks? The Prowler still has two guns and shoots faster than the other two tanks, plus it has the highest speed (even if that point doesnt really work out in real combat). The Vanguard still has more armor and the Magrider still has the best mobility.

And while I agree that DPS isnt defining for PS2 that doesnt mean you can give one side more than double the DPS. Magrider HE Splash is ~210DPS, Vanguards is even worse with 200DPS and the Prowler has a whooping ~479DPS. Comparing Vanguard HE to Prowler HE the Prowler has ~2.4x the DPS.