ESFs and liberators

[igster]

Do ESFs and liberators really need to benefit from location based damage? After being taken from full health to zero health during a heavy armour battle by yet another mosquito/reaver and scythe for the billionth time I got to wondering why air units benefit from the location based damage.

I love location based damage for armour fights - it really adds to the tactical element of armour columns and even against infantry. Kudos to the Tank / Sundy / Lightning / HA that pops up behind our lines to put a rocket in our rear.

They have such speed and manouverability to attack armour from pretty much any direction (including on the z-axis) that they really just don't need sub 1 second kill times just because they happen to get behind a ground armoured unit. To be honest - even without location based damage they can mostly not even be touched by most ground units.

Just look at how long sunderers last against them - not long - and sunderers dont have any form of location based damage. It would mean that they would be able to shoot straight but they would still mostly not have any counter and i'd imagine it would be a more satisfying kill. Very similar to the old PS1 Reaver.

Even a skyguard would struggle to kill a rocket pod ESF that simply strafed it to death from the front and sides.

[Rothnang]

Since location based damage isn't based on where the projectile hits, but where it was fired from it's extremely rare that a Liberator lands hits to your back armor, since it would have to fly pretty much right on the deck and use its front gun to do it. Liberators will hit your top armor the vast majority of the time.

ESFs can dip down to hit your back armor, but that's a really risky maneuver for them. If you have a Walker or Ranger on top of your tank they won't survive it, and in such a low flying attack even the tanks main gun has a solid shot at hitting the fighter on approach.

[igster]

Completely agree with Liberators - for them it is extremely risky to be at low altitudes but not so sure with ESFs. They are constantly strafing and I'm not sure that the angle required for it to be considered a rear armour attack is very great.

I just think that with the speed of the rocket pods attack and the 240% damage multiplier this gives them an unfair advantage. With the reload speed on most armour units - a tank can't take down another tank as quickly as an ESF can take down a tank. The tank takes 2 gunners to even approach the speed of a one manned ESF shooting the rear armour.

Just seems wrong when the same ESF can pretty much destroy a tank without this multiplier in a very short amount of time anyway.

[Rothnang]

I don't think it's that bad really. If an ESF couldn't destroy a tank pretty easily there would be no reason to ever put an anti-air gun on top of a tank. It shouldn't be all Sarons and Vulcans.

[Sifer2]

Sunderers do have locations based damage though or is my Blockade armor cert lying to me?

Anyway getting instant gibbed from behind in a tank can be annoying. But a lot of it is simply battlefield awareness. Don't let him sneak up on you, and if you know he is there keep moving, and rotate the rear away from him. It is a risky attack to ever go that low in an ESF. If there is Burster MAX or Skyguard around it will be fatal. And even the tanks Walker turret can do good damage at that range.

[Rasui]

I've been enjoying life lately, however, should paper really have an advantage against me?

-Rock

[zulu]

Sometimes I get headshot bonuses when attacking infantry with rockets. Seems a bit odd, when you think about it. I guess the rockets might have actually hit them in the head, but it's just a little weird to get a bonus for that.

[Baneblade]

Honestly, and I know I'll catch some flak for being a Vanguard operator first and foremost, but ESFs really shouldn't be spending much time with their noses pointed at the ground. MBTs already have enough to worry about without adding solo kill whores to the mix (yes, I know you can still solo with an MBT).

ESFs without rockets would be good for everyone, not just tankers. Leave the A2G whoring to the Liberators... at least they need more than one person to do it.

[Bravix]

Honestly, and I know I'll catch some flak for being a Vanguard operator first and foremost, but ESFs really shouldn't be spending much time with their noses pointed at the ground. MBTs already have enough to worry about without adding solo kill whores to the mix (yes, I know you can still solo with an MBT).

ESFs without rockets would be good for everyone, not just tankers. Leave the A2G whoring to the Liberators... at least they need more than one person to do it.

Why? So there's no point to having AA turrets on tanks? Cause you sure as hell aren't going to be hitting that Lib with tank based AA. Not unless he's doing low passes.

[Thunderhawk]

As much as it is annoying to be one ENTIRE CLIP SPAMMED INTO THE REAR (see what I did there) killed by an ESF whilst in a Tank, it's balanced these days by the fact that anything and there mother can shoot down an ESF.

To do a solid entire clip into the rear of an MBT you need to fly low and be aiming at it, hence a Vanguard or Prowler can swivel the main turret and shoot you out of the sky, it really isnt that hard to do if ESFs are going for MBTs they are in danger of being shot down by Tank main guns.

The only problem is the Magrider.... you can't swivel your main turret rearwards to shoot at the ESF because it's fixed forward, and no one runs AA guns on top of a Magrider when you have the Saron so you're screwed (although a Saron can do serious damage to an ESF if the gunner is a good player)

So......

What you're complaining about really is the Magrider :)

ESFs are fine, you can't nerf them any FUCKIN more, sorry.

[Satanam]

Satanam

Time played
Mosquito - 14h 37m
Prowler - 2h 58m

Kills vehicle to infantry
Mosquito - 52
Prowler - 37

Kills vehicle to vehicle
Mosquito - 52
Prowler - 18

Time played (minutes)/kill points (v.t.i. + v.t.v.)
Mosquito - 877/104 = 8,433
Prowler - 178/55 = 3,236


Igster

Time played
Scyte - 11h 39m
Magrider - 218h 49m

Kills vehicle to infantry
Scyte - 127
Magrider - 5644

Kills vehicle to vehicle
Scyte - 66
Magrider - 2701

Time played (minutes)/kill points (v.t.i. + v.t.v.)
Scyte - 699/193 = 3,622
Magrider - 13129/8345 = 1,573

We can see that, for both you and me, ESF time to kill is higher than MBT time to kill. And I used vehicle to infantry + vehicle to vehicle, but note that your ESF v.t.i. kills is higher than v.t.v. (probably it's just that you focused on farming bases where your team was attacking, or got kills in huge battles; while I got deployed Sunderer kills for tactical purposes and provided some air support when there were so many enemy tanks).
Our vehicle kills are not higher than infantry kills; and as our t.t.k. is higher for ESFs than MBTs, we can say it's easier to get kills with MBTs. If you think numbers is not enough for this case, think that you can easily start a tank convoy and keep everyone around, while you can't do the same as ESF pilot. You'll need to get away from AA on different ways if you're working on a group of pilots, while tanks will just need to aim on you and get you down in a second. You'll never want to go against a group of 3 AA Lightning, and even worse: you should never get down with an ESF just to kill a tank shooting its rear, you better be "safe" (i.e. a bit harder to kill) on higher altitudes.

[CasualCat]

Sunderers do have locations based damage though or is my Blockade armor cert lying to me?

Anyway getting instant gibbed from behind in a tank can be annoying. But a lot of it is simply battlefield awareness. Don't let him sneak up on you, and if you know he is there keep moving, and rotate the rear away from him. It is a risky attack to ever go that low in an ESF. If there is Burster MAX or Skyguard around it will be fatal. And even the tanks Walker turret can do good damage at that range.

Blockade armor adds location based damage by making the rear stronger than any other side. Otherwise Sunderers don't have location based damage.

We can see that, for both you and me, ESF time to kill is higher than MBT time to kill. And I used vehicle to infantry + vehicle to vehicle, but note that your ESF v.t.i. kills is higher than v.t.v. (probably it's just that you focused on farming bases where your team was attacking, or got kills in huge battles; while I got deployed Sunderer kills for tactical purposes and provided some air support when there were so many enemy tanks).
Our vehicle kills are not higher than infantry kills; and as our t.t.k. is higher for ESFs than MBTs, we can say it's easier to get kills with MBTs. If you think numbers is not enough for this case, think that you can easily start a tank convoy and keep everyone around, while you can't do the same as ESF pilot. You'll need to get away from AA on different ways if you're working on a group of pilots, while tanks will just need to aim on you and get you down in a second. You'll never want to go against a group of 3 AA Lightning, and even worse: you should never get down with an ESF just to kill a tank shooting its rear, you better be "safe" (i.e. a bit harder to kill) on higher altitudes.

I'd be curious about those numbers you posted for me. I think I have more vehicle kills in my scythe than infantry kills (not that I have a lot).

If I'm hitting a tank in the rear with pods it is usually because that tank has been sitting there for at least a short while because I've then had to maneuver around behind their line so I can do a low high speed pass.

Getting rear hits with a Liberator should be much rarer. I've done it with the CAS30, but with the belly guns given the increased drop, it'd be a PITA if possible at all.

[Satanam]

Blockade armor adds location based damage by making the rear stronger than any other side. Otherwise Sunderers don't have location based damage.



I'd be curious about those numbers you posted for me. I think I have more vehicle kills in my scythe than infantry kills (not that I have a lot).

If I'm hitting a tank in the rear with pods it is usually because that tank has been sitting there for at least a short while because I've then had to maneuver around behind their line so I can do a low high speed pass.

Getting rear hits with a Liberator should be much rarer. I've done it with the CAS30, but with the belly guns given the increased drop, it'd be a PITA if possible at all.
Basically, PlanetSide 2 character data and a bit of math. Yes, the numbers are right and you got more infantry kills than vehicle kills with ESF. Everyone's complaining how ESF are easy targets, easy to kill and, in fact, they are.
Nobody would go down just to kill a tank shooting its rear with an ESF when you can die in 1 shot from it. It usually takes me more than 16 rockets to explode a tank, but I guess nobody would get back and destroy it when they'll surely take care when you get back. Not to say how easy is it to repair a tank, while you need to get away on a safe position to repair your ESF.
Against infantry, Hellfire Rocket Pods are useful because of its blast radius, not counting how scary it may be when you think you're safe and then suddenly you're covered by explosions from somewhere. I have 3 main friends that I call in for an ESF air support when its needed, so there we go in our 4 Mosquitos with Hellfire Rocket Pods. It feels nice, we all shoot 1 target (usually a Sunderer) and then get away, we get back and BOOM, they take at least 2 of us down with AA Lightning, Sunderer's AA weapons, secondary MBT's AA weapons, AA MAXes, etc.

[CasualCat]

Basically, PlanetSide 2 character data and a bit of math. Yes, the numbers are right and you got more infantry kills than vehicle kills with ESF. Everyone's complaining how ESF are easy targets, easy to kill and, in fact, they are.<snip>

Either I'm misunderstanding what you're saying or I'm misunderstanding the data (or maybe both).

I'm showing for my ESF:
206 kills as
208 vehicle kills as

Those numbers seem odd to me too because I used to think vehicle kills was a subset of the total "kills as." I don't see how that could be though given the numbers above.

I do have more infantry kills with infantry weapons than with the ESF though if that is what you were saying?

[Rothnang]

The reason why you can have more vehicle kills than real kills with a weapon is because if someone gets out of a vehicle just before it blows you only get the vehicle kill, not the actual kill.

By the way, with the new player stat page you can check who's using vehicles to just farm easy kills and who's using vehicles to hunt other vehicles.

[Satanam]

Either I'm misunderstanding what you're saying or I'm misunderstanding the data (or maybe both).

I'm showing for my ESF:
206 kills as
208 vehicle kills as

Those numbers seem odd to me too because I used to think vehicle kills was a subset of the total "kills as." I don't see how that could be though given the numbers above.

I do have more infantry kills with infantry weapons than with the ESF though if that is what you were saying?
Now, I'm a bit confused. Are you Igster? Because I was using Igster stats and didn't notice you replied to me, so I thought you was Igster. Well, as I said before you can just get in a group of ESFs or blow up (alone) stationary/deployed vehicles, then you'll get more vehicle kills than infantry kills. It's way easier to get infantry kills than vehicle kills, I just don't have way more infantry kills because I don't use my Mosquito to farm, just to blow up deployed Sunderer or annoy tanks so they'll aim on me instead of my tank mates. And then, you know, shake the mouse and try dodging until I'm on a safe place. Anyway, we should check the time played too and the numbers for both ESF and MBT on each character.
It's way easier to get infantry kills than vehicle kills as an ESF pilot, just because you can spam it where there's a lot of infantry. As for the guys inside the MBT, they'll probably get off and you'll get the vehicle kill only (it happens everytime for me).
If you're in an ESF, you can't exit like that and if you do, you'll commit suicide when your enemy can (and probably will) be safier out of his vehicle. Rocket pods are not a big problem, they're kinda balanced in my opinion. We need some advantages while in an ESF too, and it's the high damage to infantry. That's nice if you see how easy your ESF will explode. Air support is supposed to be like that, and your MBT enemies are not doing way less damage than ESF pilots.

[Baneblade]

Why? So there's no point to having AA turrets on tanks? Cause you sure as hell aren't going to be hitting that Lib with tank based AA. Not unless he's doing low passes.

Rock paper scissors. The problem is the ESFs are basically universal wild cards and can take on anything in the game and come out victorious. Nothing else in the game can say that.

ESFs should be A2A primarily, with limited ability to engage ground targets, much like ground vehicles have limited ability to engage air targets.

The Lib shouldn't be the gunship, but I'm not expecting that to change any time soon. A proper bomber would be nice, at least require some effort on the part of the Lib's to get their kills.

[Obstruction]

Sometimes I get headshot bonuses when attacking infantry with rockets. Seems a bit odd, when you think about it. I guess the rockets might have actually hit them in the head, but it's just a little weird to get a bonus for that.

haha my lib gunner got a headshot with a dalton the other day. that must have really hurt amirite. i guess the bonus is to your "damage dealt" stat more than anything.