we need to see the scat max stats. ( devs please read)

[Rumblepit]

everyone including 60% of the NC know the scat max isnt op, its broken.
people for months and months said the magrider was OP.... every VS and thier mother said we all needed to learn to play..... guess what the data released about the magrider by soe proved that we were all right,and then the mag was fixed.

all i ask is that a dev please look into this and get us some numbers.

i have a strange feeling that once the data is out there ,and all these NC that sound just like the VS and their magriders will stfu fast....

all i ask for is the devs to give us the same data on scat maxes like they did the magrider.

[Dragonskin]

Probably true. Scatter cannon and Hacksaws are OP for sure. You have to have extreme range to kill these safely without a vehicle or C4. The other 2 faction maxes are far underpowered if the NC max is how they want others to stack up. TR in my outfit was playing with his mercy minigun weapons on his max and he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn... it was laughable how badly it missed.

[ChipMHazard]

Well I will agree that Scattermaxes are broken in the sense that they are too effective in close quarters against infantry and especially other MAXs'. Of course I think the problem mostly comes down to how the base design forces you into close quarters when trying to take objectives. Well that and the low TTK.
The Scattermaxes are fairly useless outside close quarters combat, which is also a problem since it makes them inflexible.
They've gone back and forth with how good the scatterguns are and I would not want to see them return them to their previous useless state.
It's no secret that I never agreed with their design choice of adding in the scattergun as an faction exclusive. I would much rather have them make the NC MAX AI an HMG, with perhaps scatterguns as universal alternatives. But... Fat chance of that happening:p
What they perhaps could do, if possible, would be to add in completely different chokes.

Short range deals the most damage, has the most spread, slowest firing speed, least amount of ammo (requires more ammo to fire?).
Medium range is just that, average.
Long range is the opposite of the short range variant.

But I don't really see that happening either. At the very least I would hope that they make it so that the scatterguns deal less damage to MAXs', if possible. That way TR/VS MAXs' would at least stand a chance at countering NC MAXs'.

[ThatGoatGuy]

The Scattermaxes are fairly useless outside close quarters combat, which is also a problem since it makes them inflexible.

What person in their right mind is gonna be outside in a MAX suit if it isn't a burster MAX?

Hacksaws = OP

[ChipMHazard]

What person in their right mind is gonna be outside in a MAX suit if it isn't a burster MAX?

Hacksaws = OP

Well that is true enough, I guess. Being outside of close quarters combat doesn't necessarily mean *outside* outside.

[Badjuju]

Wait and see what their plans are for the other two maxes as they will likely give them strong niches as well and/or balance maxes accordingly once that is done.

The problem is the same issue you always have with shotties in a low TTk game. They are either really good in close quarters or useless.

I won't have an issue with them if the other two maxes find their own strong and dominant niches.

[Rumblepit]

the numbers wont lie...when it comes down to it they kill more infantry, they kill more maxes, and they dont have to pull half as many.

im 100% positive it will look just like the magrider data. lol everyone knows it will.

[Sturmhardt]

Have you guys ever been overrun by 30 TR just using their MAX? That's scarier than an NC MAXes up close. As an NC we can't pull this off, because then nobody can attack < midrange. As TR or VS it's pretty much overkill if EVERYONE just uses the MAX. Brainless tactic, but very effective, think about it. Or better: Don't think about it, I hate that tactic ;)

[psijaka]

Don't use dual Scattermax or whatever, but I would like to see the numbers.

Copied from the "overpowered" thread.

By far its the NC skill max..... but its not OP, its broken.... worst thing in this game atm by far. it needs to be nerfed, or allow VS and TR to get dual shotguns for our maxes.

I would favour this. Why shouldn't SoE offer an empire specific MAX shotgun? TR would have higher RoF, lower damage, larger mag (similar DPS). VS tighter spread but slightly lower DPS.

And let NC MAXes wield an HMG; slower firing, higher damage, smaller mag than the TR. I would love to try this.

[Rumblepit]

im guessing you have never had 30 nc maxes rushing you..... its the same result but it only takes 1/3 of the time to kill everyone, because after all atm the game is based on numbers.

[Sledgecrushr]

I wouldnt mind if the nc has maxes with HMGs strapped to their forearms. Reloading every seven rounds sucks. Not being to reliably drop even infantry at 20 yards without reloading sucks. Imho outside of biodomes nc max is about useless.

[Lepalose]

+1 for this.

The statistics made the case for the Magrider to be nerfed.

Forum whining within two weeks has resulted in a rebalancing to HE Prowlers.

But the biggest complaint of all has not drawn significant response from the Devs, and that is the situation regarding the NC Scat/Hacksaw/Grinder MAXes.

Of course we can argue ad naseum about what they are and are not good at, but the statistics will shed light on these arguments.

Here is what I would like to see:

MAX against MAX K:D vs Calendar Day
MAX Kills per life vs Calendar Day
% MAX Kills vs Range Killed for a given week
% of MAX death vs Killing Blow (i.e. MAX, Launcher, C4, Vehicle)

The issue I imagine would perhaps be whether separating out the Burster damage from other kills should be done - but even this should not skew the numbers so much.

[EVILPIG]

I'd love to know where this "60%" number comes from.

The NC MAX weaponry is the strongest. Currently, it is the NC's strength. TR have the best LMG and tank. VS have the best ESF. It's called variety. Up in your face, the NC MAX is the best choice on the battlefield. Med-long range, TR infantry becomes the best choice. Tanks vs. tank, Prowler or Mag. Farming infantry? Prowler. A2A, Scythe. It goes round and round.

Back to NC MAXes, the NC MAX basically hits like an alpha strike. It hits hard, but doesn't sustain. You will get caught up reloading a lot. The VS MAX is the best for mowing through multiple infantry and the TR MAX is good at that too. Ever notice that NC MAXes are very loud when they walk? TR MAXes are quieter and VS MAXes tip-toe. They are different. They are all good with support.

Honestly, they should remove AV MAXes and just have AI and MAX buster MAXes - Anti-MAX MAXes.

[DeltaGun]

I think most people are missing the real reason people don't like the NC MAX.

It is NOT because it gets more kills or has a higher K/D ratio or anything like that. The simple truth is that the NC MAX is annoying because it INSTANTLY kills its opponents.

When an NC MAX boosts up to you from nowhere or is hiding behind a corner you didn't expect, you have 0.02 seconds to react and move behind a wall or run 20-30 meters away before you and anyone next to you instantly dies.

Think you're safe in your own MAX? The MAX suit gives you an extra few seconds to live versus any opponent in the game... besides an NC MAX, who will only take a second longer to kill you.

This is simply not the case with the other MAXs. Thus the cries of imbalance.

[Dragonskin]

I wouldnt mind if the nc has maxes with HMGs strapped to their forearms. Reloading every seven rounds sucks. Not being to reliably drop even infantry at 20 yards without reloading sucks. Imho outside of biodomes nc max is about useless.

Wish I could have recorded the footage from last night. The TR mercy machine guns are terrible. You can't even reliably hit a infantry within 30 meters with them. It was sad. Meanwhile in the same distance the NC hacksaws would haev insta-gibbed the infantry.

[LoliLoveFart]

...The simple truth is that the NC MAX is annoying because it INSTANTLY kills its opponents...

This. OHK's are terrible for balance. Especially when only one faction has access to them. If only one faction had Pump action Shotguns you would see as many if not more Nerf threads.

I am all for assymetrical balance. And maybe just myabe the lancer will be the answer to at least the VS's NC max issue.

Personally i think being instagibbed because you walked around a corner a NC max was hiding in isn't really balanced. 2 cents.

[KesTro]

Wish I could have recorded the footage from last night. The TR mercy machine guns are terrible. You can't even reliably hit a infantry within 30 meters with them. It was sad. Meanwhile in the same distance the NC hacksaws would haev insta-gibbed the infantry.

A pretty big exageration honestly. If you guys want Hackmaxes to get nerfed fine, but give us something with some range then as that's our ONLY option for AI MAX.

[ChipMHazard]

Wish I could have recorded the footage from last night. The TR mercy machine guns are terrible. You can't even reliably hit a infantry within 30 meters with them. It was sad. Meanwhile in the same distance the NC hacksaws would haev insta-gibbed the infantry.

I find that very hard to believe.

[DeltaGun]

A pretty big exageration honestly. If you guys want Hackmaxes to get nerfed fine, but give us something with some range then as that's our ONLY option for AI MAX.

Its not a big a exaggeration. The TR and VS MAX weapons are functionally identical. Their range I would say is very very poor, useless at long range and operates effectively only in ranges slightly further than Scattercannons (20m -> 30m).

By the way, you have Slugs for long ranges. I haven't used slugs myself, but from what I've seen, they have the same effective range as the Mercy/Quasar (30m).

[Rumblepit]

I'd love to know where this "60%" number comes from.

The NC MAX weaponry is the strongest. Currently, it is the NC's strength. TR have the best LMG and tank. VS have the best ESF. It's called variety. Up in your face, the NC MAX is the best choice on the battlefield. Med-long range, TR infantry becomes the best choice. Tanks vs. tank, Prowler or Mag. Farming infantry? Prowler. A2A, Scythe. It goes round and round.

Back to NC MAXes, the NC MAX basically hits like an alpha strike. It hits hard, but doesn't sustain. You will get caught up reloading a lot. The VS MAX is the best for mowing through multiple infantry and the TR MAX is good at that too. Ever notice that NC MAXes are very loud when they walk? TR MAXes are quieter and VS MAXes tip-toe. They are different. They are all good with support.

Honestly, they should remove AV MAXes and just have AI and MAX buster MAXes - Anti-MAX MAXes.
well most of the skilled nc players i talk to on connery agree its broken, some of which are from your very own outfit piggy.
so your saying the nc max data will look like the magrider data because your nc, you hit hard and reload alot.:rofl: its cute... really is.

you know i got some more percents for ya too.
there was this guy on vs who didnt nothing but gun his mag 50% of the time he was in game. he said it wasnt op and the vs have technology advantages ,which made this ok. we saw the data it got nerfed...

another fine gent spent 50% of his time in game with his prowler blasting people with dual he. he said it wasnt op that they were tr and they should fire faster,which made this ok. we saw the data and its getting nerfed.

then there was this guy evilpig,who spent 50% of his time in game in a max.he said that the nc should hit hard and istagib ,because its a faction trait, which made this ok....... what do you think will happen when we see the data piggy?

[Dragonskin]

I find that very hard to believe.

Like I said, I wish I had video of it. It was 3 of us playing with a outfit member than had dual mercies at the TR WG. He said he wasn't sure if he was bugged or not, but he was not able to reliably hit either of us from within 30 meters. He said if he was bugged then it's a persistant bug that hasn't gone away. The cone of fire was so spread out it was rediculous.

[Kail]

As an infantry I rather expect to die very quickly to a MAX suit who catches me. Especially at close range. The only issue I have is how the NC max can lay out another empire's max in under a second; ie, if there's an enemy max who kills me, I should be able to hop into my own max suit to deal with him (ignoring skill differences).

Personally I'm a fan of requiring AV-type weapons against MAXs; a MAX who goes dual AI is now weak against other MAXes (who haven't). It also has the nice benefit of showing how painful it is to have only a single class with a ranged AV tool.

[Rumblepit]

I find that very hard to believe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gZv7Os1jYms

many issues with the hit detection on the dual cyc. been this way since beta.

[ChipMHazard]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gZv7Os1jYms

many issues with the hit detection on the dual cyc. been this way since beta.

I thought they fixed that a month or so ago.

[EVILPIG]

well most of the skilled nc players i talk to on connery agree its broken, some of which are from your very own outfit piggy.
so your saying the nc max data will look like the magrider data because your nc, you hit hard and reload alot.:rofl: its cute... really is.

you know i got some more percents for ya too.
there was this guy on vs who didnt nothing but gun his mag 50% of the time he was in game. he said it wasnt op and the vs have technology advantages ,which made this ok. we saw the data it got nerfed...

another fine gent spent 50% of his time in game with his prowler blasting people with dual he. he said it wasnt op that they were tr and they should fire faster,which made this ok. we saw the data and its getting nerfed.

then there was this guy evilpig,who spent 50% of his time in game in a max.he said that the nc should hit hard and istagib ,because its a faction trait, which made this ok....... what do you think will happen when we see the data piggy?

You're starting to get whiney. I said it's the NC's strength. When I play TR, I get to enjoy raping NC as they attempt to close the distance with my CARV 9. The current balance is that everything is not the same, some empires are better than others at certain roles. If that isn't good enough for you, at least get it right. I don't spend 50% of my time in a NC MAX, but in an indoor slugfest, I will bring the best weapon for the job. It also doesn't mean the other two MAXes suck. Not by far.

I asked for Heavy Gauss during development, but we still got shotguns.

[Captain1nsaneo]

Quick word to the fellows who want everyone to have shotgun max weapons. Each side is designed to have different strengths, forcing attacking players to change how they fight depending on who they are attacking. You don't see it with aircraft yet but when we get more faction specific weapons who we're fighting will start to matter more and more to how we fight.

[Pella]

NC Max still needs to be tweaked.

1: Stand to the side of a door
2: Kill anything Instantly that comes through
3: Press V+6


Life of a NC Max.

[Rumblepit]

I thought they fixed that a month or so ago.


lol yea i wish they did.... not sure i have ever seen anyone from soe acknowledge the issue.

[Rumblepit]

You're starting to get whiney. I said it's the NC's strength. When I play TR, I get to enjoy raping NC as they attempt to close the distance with my CARV 9. The current balance is that everything is not the same, some empires are better than others at certain roles. If that isn't good enough for you, at least get it right. I don't spend 50% of my time in a NC MAX, but in an indoor slugfest, I will bring the best weapon for the job. It also doesn't mean the other two MAXes suck. Not by far.

I asked for Heavy Gauss during development, but we still got shotguns.


im sure those mag drivers felt the same way you do now. the only reason i said you were in a max 50% of the time is because your stats say 151 hrs played 74 hrs of which were in a max. i was simply stating that your time spent in said op max might hinder your judgement just as it did to those who spent time in magriders and HE prowlers.

cant believe i had to explain that.i guess i can be theatrical.

[EVILPIG]

im sure those mag drivers felt the same way you do now. the only reason i said you were in a max 50% of the time is because your stats say 151 hrs played 74 hrs of which were in a max. i was simply stating that your time spent in said op max might hinder your judgement just as it did to those who spent time in magriders and HE prowlers.

cant believe i had to explain that.i guess i can be theatrical.

Class selection shows MAX as 33% for me. Time is skewed though. When commanding, I usually sit in a MAX because if I'm staring at the map I at least have a chance of surviving if jumped.

Looked again and it is time per class. 33%

[Pella]

Look at top killers on leaderboards to understand whats OP. And their "Farm" Potential.

NC - SCAT MAX
TR - HE PROWLERS
VS - Nothing.

[OCNSethy]

Have to agree with the close range deadliness of NC maxs... rounded a corner at Vanu Archives last night and found an NC max waiting for me. Oh crap, died. Didnt even have time to try and dodge.

Another one drop-podded on to roof over the spawn room at Crossroad Watchtower. Heard the pod land looked up... dead. No time to react.

Dems deadly dudes.

[Sonny]

I definitely agree with the OP that the community needs a lot more access to basic stats about what kills what, at least to put an end to the pointless balancing arguments we see all the time on the main forums (the subject of this thread isn't one of them, by the way :)).

[Erendil]

You're starting to get whiney. I said it's the NC's strength. When I play TR, I get to enjoy raping NC as they attempt to close the distance with my CARV 9. The current balance is that everything is not the same, some empires are better than others at certain roles. If that isn't good enough for you, at least get it right. I don't spend 50% of my time in a NC MAX, but in an indoor slugfest, I will bring the best weapon for the job. It also doesn't mean the other two MAXes suck. Not by far.

I asked for Heavy Gauss during development, but we still got shotguns.

Your TR analogy is broken because IMO the SAW (and NC LMGs in general) is a much better ranged LMG than the CARV due to the SAW's incredible accuracy and high per-shot damage, the CARV's inaccuracy, and the recent Flinch mechanic change, meaning the NC get better ranged weapons and better CQC MAXes.

However, when comparing ES LMGs at various ranges there is still a wide range of opinions and the minor differences in ability can usually be overcome easily by player skill. But I don't think there's any doubt in anyone's mind that the NC shotgun MAXes are flat-out superior to the TR/VS MAXes in CQC.

Plus, there are these other factors to consider:

Slugs and the Falcon, giving NC MAXes two medium range options. But the TR/VS have no up close option.
The fact that most base objectives (gens, cap pts) are indoors at CQC range
Dual shotgun MAXes can OHK
The firepower of both arms of a Dual TR/VS MAX is equal to about one LMG. The firepower of both arms of a Dual shotgun MAX is equal to TWO shotguns
Shotgun MAXes can easily kill TR/VS AV MAXes, meaning AFAIK they're the only unit in the game without a direct counter in their natural habitat. The fact that only one empire has access to them makes it even worse


I think it's pretty clear that NC shotgun MAXes as they currently stand are broken. Hopefully the MAX balance pass will straighten this out.

[Dragonskin]

Look at top killers on leaderboards to understand whats OP. And their "Farm" Potential.

NC - SCAT MAX
TR - HE PROWLERS
VS - Nothing.

VS - dark default camo makes them hard to see at night.

Yea that isn't a farming weapon, but it's still a perk. I play both VS and TR so agree with you though. VS is lacking after the magrider hit.

[Cruiza]

I honestly wish HE rounds and shotguns didn't exist in the game at all. With that said, I'm not crazy about the idea of giving all faction MAXes access to shotgun weaponry. I'd rather have the NC MAX shotgun pellet damage and/or quantity reduced per shot but increase magazine capacity or something along those lines. That way the burst damage is nerfed but the total magazine damage is buffed to compensate. The burst damage is essentially the source of the issue after all.

[Chewy]

Now that the VR room is FINALLY coming out I can (try) to put to rest some of the OP/UP myths people have about infantry weapons without needing to rely on the schedules of many others.

Also for any who hasn't seen this video yet of TR and NC MAX testing Id suggest doing so. And no, it's not the one from Beta. This one was posted 1/12/13 and still has merit.


[Test] NC MAX vs. TR MAX Anti-infantry weaponry 11.01.13 - YouTube

[Koadster]

Have you guys ever been overrun by 30 TR just using their MAX? That's scarier than an NC MAXes up close. As an NC we can't pull this off, because then nobody can attack < midrange. As TR or VS it's pretty much overkill if EVERYONE just uses the MAX. Brainless tactic, but very effective, think about it. Or better: Don't think about it, I hate that tactic ;)

Ever played tr max vs scatmax. I can't even dump half my mercy magazine before it kills me. I've been killed at the biolab scu while the max was on the outerwall. Just like the magrider ur defending ur max because u know Nc maxes can lockdown a biolab indefinitely given people wanna hang around that long.

Although what I wanna see is vs small ARM kills vs maxes. When in my Nc or tr max. Vs weapons kill me much faster then other factions. Perhaps its a bug to do with the laser projectiles since vs generally do same dmg per shot as tr. Though maxes need more armor in general.1700 certs for 5% small arms resistance is pathetic.

[Neutral Calypso]

Now that the VR room is FINALLY coming out I can (try) to put to rest some of the OP/UP myths people have about infantry weapons without needing to rely on the schedules of many others.

Also for any who hasn't seen this video yet of TR and NC MAX testing Id suggest doing so. And no, it's not the one from Beta. This one was posted 1/12/13 and still has merit.


[Test] NC MAX vs. TR MAX Anti-infantry weaponry 11.01.13 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5otUpvaRvSA)

If this were an actual combat situation, the NC max would charge to close range and open up. I'd like to see that test performed again, but with the NC max starting at 30 meters, and using its charge ability to charge in. See if the TR can still fell it if it is charging to point blank before opening up with its CQC weapons.

[Tenhi]

Though maxes need more armor in general.1700 certs for 5% small arms resistance is pathetic.

Just to clear that one up. A MAX starts with 80% small arms resistance and Kinetic Armor gives you an additional 5%. With that you end up at 85% small arms resistance going from 20%dmg taken down to 15%damage taken.

So with 2000 HP and 80%reduction a gun that deals 100dmg does 20dmg and thus takes 100 Shots to kill your MAX. With Kinetic Armor 5 you only take 15dmg instead of the 20dmg and thus the gun needs 133.33 shots to kill you.

One thing to remember is that Rocket Launcher direct hits arent affected by Flak Armor or Kinetic Armor... so a HA with a Rocket Launcher will allways hurt.

Edit: Also note that Kinetic Armor has no effect on the OHK Scat/Hax-MAX. You still die in one magazine...

[Lepalose]

Lets not get entirely side tracked here.

The purpose of this thread is to get awareness of the fact that we want the statistics to be released so we do not have these "hand waving" arguments.

If the Devs would kindly oblige (I know it takes a bit of time to data mine and all), I think the discussions would be better informed. And if we can largely agree, across empires, and as a group, that this is something the PS2 community desires I think they would spend a little time getting this data to us.

So lets focus on getting the data first, and save the flame wars until after.

[OCNSethy]

So lets focus on getting the data first, and save the flame wars until after.

Always a good idea.

[Pheonix]

I was not told to post this by anyone except myself. Lep did not just tell me to post this on teamspeak this is legit: I personally believe max data should be revealed to the public.

[Goldymires]

Or you know they could give MAXs' the same weapons as their infantry counter parts...NC MAXs' can dual wield pistons. I mean, you can't even mix weapons on a max without gimping yourself.

[snafus]

Absolutely agree with this. I really think the data would shed some light on this issue and show everyone that this is a problem that needs to be resolved. And yes there are imbalances on every faction, but we can't use that as an excuse to not try and fix them to improve the overall balance of the game.

[ChipMHazard]

Lets not get entirely side tracked here.

The purpose of this thread is to get awareness of the fact that we want the statistics to be released so we do not have these "hand waving" arguments.

If the Devs would kindly oblige (I know it takes a bit of time to data mine and all), I think the discussions would be better informed. And if we can largely agree, across empires, and as a group, that this is something the PS2 community desires I think they would spend a little time getting this data to us.

So lets focus on getting the data first, and save the flame wars until after.

Aye:D

[Maidere]

I'd love to know where this "60%" number comes from.

The NC MAX weaponry is the strongest. Currently, it is the NC's strength. TR have the best LMG and tank. VS have the best ESF. It's called variety. Up in your face, the NC MAX is the best choice on the battlefield. Med-long range, TR infantry becomes the best choice. Tanks vs. tank, Prowler or Mag. Farming infantry? Prowler. A2A, Scythe. It goes round and round.

Back to NC MAXes, the NC MAX basically hits like an alpha strike. It hits hard, but doesn't sustain. You will get caught up reloading a lot. The VS MAX is the best for mowing through multiple infantry and the TR MAX is good at that too. Ever notice that NC MAXes are very loud when they walk? TR MAXes are quieter and VS MAXes tip-toe. They are different. They are all good with support.

Honestly, they should remove AV MAXes and just have AI and MAX buster MAXes - Anti-MAX MAXes.

I hope you do understand that this is not how balance works in FPS games.

[Sturmhardt]

Does anyone know what EXACT number they want? What statistic is it you are precisely looking for? Under what circumstances should the numbers be generated? Would the chosen numbers reflect reality? I can't think of any single number that would clearly point out what you are looking for.

.sent via phone.

[Maidere]

NC MAX K/D in Biolab area vs other empire MAXs by example.

[Sturmhardt]

NC MAX K/D in Biolab area vs other empire MAXs by example.

But that would not reflect the whole story, would it? Of course the k/d of NC maxes in biolabs would be better than in amp stations or tech labs because biolabs are some of the few places the nc max can shine. This would only tell us how maxes perform in that given area and not show the whole picture. Even if the k/d in biolabs of nc maxes is better than the others, you can't evaluate the significance of that information without knowledge of the k/d in other areas.

.sent via phone.

[Maidere]

But that would not reflect the whole story, would it? Of course the k/d of NC maxes in biolabs would be better than in amp stations or tech labs because biolabs are some of the few places the nc max can shine. This would only tell us how maxes perform in that given area and not show the whole picture. Even if the k/d in biolabs of nc maxes is better than the others, you can't evaluate the significance of that information without knowledge of the k/d in other areas.

.sent via phone.
We dont need the whole picture because the only place where it's OP is biolab. Maybe we need more MAX-related statistics from the biolab.
You cant say "NC MAX is ok becuase when it obliterates everything in the Biolab it sucks in the other areas". Because if it's true is clearly broken.

[Sifer2]

Hehe the stat will look even worse than the Magriders honestly if they ever dare post it. This is because there are some people who abuse the ScatMAX like you wouldn't believe. There are some that drop them on the tower at the Crown every 5 minutes, and just run around getting a streak. Or drop them anywhere where there are a lot of targets really. It's hard not to get at least 3 kills with the thing before your taken down no matter the odds, and no matter how bad you are. So it's a farmers dream.

In comparison the other Empires MAX's are used far less frequently. Mostly only in places where it makes sense.

[Sturmhardt]

We dont need the whole picture because the only place where it's OP is biolab. Maybe we need more MAX-related statistics from the biolab.
You cant say "NC MAX is ok becuase when it obliterates everything in the Biolab it sucks in the other areas". Because if it's true is clearly broken.

That's not true. AP shells are good against tanks and useless against infantry, still they are not broken. You have to look at the whole picture to determine if something needs to be changed or not. Something becomes OP when it's the best choice for petty much every situation. You can't just pull the biolab k/d and say you thoroughly examined the whole issue.

.sent via phone.

[Maidere]

That's not true. AP shells are good against tanks and useless against infantry, still they are not broken. You have to look at the whole picture to determine if something needs to be changed or not. Something becomes OP when it's the best choice for petty much every situation. You can't just pull the biolab k/d and say you thoroughly examined the whole issue.

.sent via phone.
Unlike AP shells, scattermaxes are NC-only.

[Mastachief]

Unlike AP shells, scattermaxes are NC-only.

So in that same vein maidere are we also going to look at the tr and vs maxes against the nc in more open bases then?

It's not broken merely high specialised. The stats you are wanting op need to be the overall stats and for all max weapons and all empires, broken down in to the individual hexes so we can pick apart just how situational each max is.

[Sledgecrushr]

I absolutely agree that at 8 meters or less the nc max is OP. but in the same breath I have to say beyond 8m the nc max is UP. There are other considerations to be mad as well that factor into this. Nc scat has very limited clip size. Nc max has limited ammo pool to draw from. Nc max has the longest reload times (I might be wrong on this point). So when you say nerf the nc max I say it is already starting from a poor situation. Literally the only moment this weapon system shines is with a full clip and less than eight meters. So what would you do to fix the max without breaking it for the nc?

[Shamrock]

Lets not get entirely side tracked here.

The purpose of this thread is to get awareness of the fact that we want the statistics to be released so we do not have these "hand waving" arguments.

If the Devs would kindly oblige (I know it takes a bit of time to data mine and all), I think the discussions would be better informed. And if we can largely agree, across empires, and as a group, that this is something the PS2 community desires I think they would spend a little time getting this data to us.

So lets focus on getting the data first, and save the flame wars until after.

Good point.

One solution id posted on official forums is just to return AV MAX's to their original anti-MAX role, a scat should hit run when it see's a Duel-Pounder or Duel-Comet, instead of flooring them in a split second. The solution also provides some balance in that the NC gets use of duel-Falcons for the same role. This would of course require some adjustment to damage and fire rate.

What I truly hate currently about Scat/Hacksaw Max's is there is no real hard counter to a Scat with support engineers, they will chew up HA's in any indoor situation. The whole distance thing is a total strawman argument, every smart NC player I see charges towards their opponent to point-blank them and uses it to escape if no engineer support is not immediately available.

[Sifer2]

I absolutely agree that at 8 meters or less the nc max is OP. but in the same breath I have to say beyond 8m the nc max is UP. There are other considerations to be mad as well that factor into this. Nc scat has very limited clip size. Nc max has limited ammo pool to draw from. Nc max has the longest reload times (I might be wrong on this point). So when you say nerf the nc max I say it is already starting from a poor situation. Literally the only moment this weapon system shines is with a full clip and less than eight meters. So what would you do to fix the max without breaking it for the nc?


You already have Slugs for it which in theory gives you a ranged option at the expense of damage. Though from what I understand just using Dual Falcons is even more effective for range lol.

The truth is MAX's in general are a close range class. Give the TR/VS MAX a whirl in the VR training, and you will see that's the case. The same areas the NC MAX is strongest is also the areas the TR/VS MAX are strongest. It's just the NC version is vastly better because killing instantly is better than killing over a few seconds time in a shooter. An while you might say that there is a sweet spot of around 20m where a TR/VS MAX can beat a ScatMAX in a fair fight. This is negated thanks to Charge. It takes only a moment to charge an enemy MAX then kill them in a few shots. There is little they can do to counter this since by the time they even realize you charged on their screen an begin to turn around, and try to charge away they are nearly dead.

[snafus]

That's not true. AP shells are good against tanks and useless against infantry, still they are not broken. You have to look at the whole picture to determine if something needs to be changed or not. Something becomes OP when it's the best choice for petty much every situation. You can't just pull the biolab k/d and say you thoroughly examined the whole issue.

.sent via phone.

How are AP rounds useless against infantry? To say that would have to imply they don't one shot all infantry. And I would love it if they showed a broader scope to the stats. But for starters how about the K/D ratio for all maxes with AI weapons. Then also show those same stats that took place in specific locations, like bio labs and towers.

[Rumblepit]

Does anyone know what EXACT number they want? What statistic is it you are precisely looking for? Under what circumstances should the numbers be generated? Would the chosen numbers reflect reality? I can't think of any single number that would clearly point out what you are looking for.

.sent via phone.

MAX against MAX K vs Calendar Day
MAX Kills per life vs Calendar Day
% MAX Kills vs Range Killed for a given week
% of MAX death vs Killing Blow (i.e. MAX, Launcher, C4, Vehicle)

[Maidere]

So in that same vein maidere are we also going to look at the tr and vs maxes against the nc in more open bases then?

It's not broken merely high specialised. The stats you are wanting op need to be the overall stats and for all max weapons and all empires, broken down in to the individual hexes so we can pick apart just how situational each max is.
This kind of "specialization" is not very good for the game, because if we will imagine that meta will be brought in at some point and the game will become less of "zerg everything around" NC will simply hold all Biolabs 24/7 and hardly will go anywhere else.
There is a reason people are whining about pump-actions and there is definitely reason people are whining about shotgun wielding machine of death that can endure a lot of bullets + can be used as a cover.
Another problem is Biolab's poor design though.

[Sledgecrushr]

You already have Slugs for it which in theory gives you a ranged option at the expense of damage. Though from what I understand just using Dual Falcons is even more effective for range lol.

The truth is MAX's in general are a close range class. Give the TR/VS MAX a whirl in the VR training, and you will see that's the case. The same areas the NC MAX is strongest is also the areas the TR/VS MAX are strongest. It's just the NC version is vastly better because killing instantly is better than killing over a few seconds time in a shooter. An while you might say that there is a sweet spot of around 20m where a TR/VS MAX can beat a ScatMAX in a fair fight. This is negated thanks to Charge. It takes only a moment to charge an enemy MAX then kill them in a few shots. There is little they can do to counter this since by the time they even realize you charged on their screen an begin to turn around, and try to charge away they are nearly dead.

Weve all seen the video that conclusively shows that outside of 10 meters the scat max might as well be shooting spitballs. So in your opinion the nc should be relegated to using our av falcons against infantry. Even if I was to use slugs I am still stuck with a grand total of fourteen rounds of ammo in my magazines.
Now I would totally agree that slugs would be fine if each clip could hold fifty of them.

[Stardouser]

We need equivalents to cycler and quasar. Different but balanced just isn't all it's cracked up to be, and that applies to overall balance in PS2.

[Sturmhardt]

MAX against MAX K vs Calendar Day
MAX Kills per life vs Calendar Day
% MAX Kills vs Range Killed for a given week
% of MAX death vs Killing Blow (i.e. MAX, Launcher, C4, Vehicle)

Max vs Max kills would not mean anything as well. NC pulls their AI max pretty much only in biolabs since it's nearly useless anywhere else. NC maxes can kill many other maxes in the biolab, while all other maxes can kill lots of infantry EVERYWHERE else on the map. So TR and VS maxes will probably have high kill counts of infantry and low kill counts of other maxes.

All these numbers don't really say anything of substance about the matter of discussion here. It worked for the tanks/the magrider because tanks are very evenly distributed over the whole map everywhere in all factions and all tanks can attack at long, medium and short range. The boundary conditions were basically the same, so you could compare statistical figures with ease. Since the NC max is used in totally different ways than the other two, that makes a meaningful statistical comparison impossible. Comparing TR and VS max would work though.

[Shamrock]

Weve all seen the video that conclusively shows that outside of 10 meters the scat max might as well be shooting spitballs. So in your opinion the nc should be relegated to using our av falcons against infantry. Even if I was to use slugs I am still stuck with a grand total of fourteen rounds of ammo in my magazines. Now I would totally agree that slugs would be fine if each clip could hold fifty of them.

In the majority of indoor fights engineer resupply is available, negating the low mag size/and capacity as an issue. Indeed in most base/tower defenses as an NC player I have had up to 3 engineers repping me and dropping a constant flow of ammo. Mag size was never a problem, the only thing that slowed me down chewing up infantry was reload time.

[Shamrock]

Max vs Max kills would not mean anything as well. NC pulls their AI max pretty much only in biolabs since it's nearly useless anywhere else. NC maxes can kill many other maxes in the biolab, while all other maxes can kill lots of infantry EVERYWHERE else on the map. So TR and VS maxes will probably have high kill counts of infantry and low kill counts of other maxes.

It is really disingenuous to say they can only be used in biolabs I can pull a Scat at any point that is INDOORS and be highly effective:-
(1) Next to an indoor capture point at an outpost.
(2) At a tower where attackers are forced into close proximity, eg staircases.
(3) ALL base types including the Bio which offer plenty of opportunities for CQC.

[bpostal]

You gotta think like Zapp Branigan. If the killbots shut down after killing 65000 people, throw 65001 at 'em. Or use c4 with LA and bait 'em. If you can get one to chase you without OHK'ing your ass then try using the new AV turrets. They at least put the hurt on.

[Redshift]

Why are people arguing about a lack of range on the splatterMAX, no one uses MAX's at range, at any range where the TR MAX kills faster than an NC MAX you'd be better off using a carbine....

[BIGGByran]

Stats Needed:

1) Max Vs Max K/D (Dual AI Weapons ONLY)
2) Max Vs Inf K/D (Dual AI Weapons ONLY)

Day by day.

Everyone Please Twit it to Higby! I did and hope he hears us out.

I agree that NC Max are OP under 10m, but just sneeze damage >10m. While TR and VS MAX effectiveness doesn't diminish until roughtly outside of 30m.

[Lepalose]

Max vs Max kills would not mean anything as well. NC pulls their AI max pretty much only in biolabs since it's nearly useless anywhere else. NC maxes can kill many other maxes in the biolab, while all other maxes can kill lots of infantry EVERYWHERE else on the map. So TR and VS maxes will probably have high kill counts of infantry and low kill counts of other maxes.

All these numbers don't really say anything of substance about the matter of discussion here. It worked for the tanks/the magrider because tanks are very evenly distributed over the whole map everywhere in all factions and all tanks can attack at long, medium and short range. The boundary conditions were basically the same, so you could compare statistical figures with ease. Since the NC max is used in totally different ways than the other two, that makes a meaningful statistical comparison impossible. Comparing TR and VS max would work though.

I see all three empires pull AI MAXes in the same places. The primary one being Biolabs, and the secondary one being Towers. This being universal for all empires, I think the numbers would be important regardless of your point on this matter. Furthermore, the data would actually be important either support or refute your claim here as well.

Analysis of data is not about the simplification of a matter, its about clarity. You say that the NC MAX is used differently; well I would say in the matter of killing enemies the end result is the same. Sure the way you go about it may vary, and data can show that - such as considering the range of kills.

Data will show how balanced (or imbalanced) the situation is, just as how they have dealt with the Magriders, then the Prowlers. Now of course I respect that there is asymmetric gameplay - so it is a question of how far off-even the gameplay is currently for the MAXes, and only the data can give us insight into that issue as well.

Simply then, whatever side of the NC MAX is OP issue you are on, you should want to have a look at the actual data.


And finally, what if not numbers and analysis is substantial to arguments on the NC MAX issue? Anecdotes? Come to understand "the plural of anecdotes is not data" and argue less.

[Rumblepit]

Max vs Max kills would not mean anything as well. NC pulls their AI max pretty much only in biolabs since it's nearly useless anywhere else. NC maxes can kill many other maxes in the biolab, while all other maxes can kill lots of infantry EVERYWHERE else on the map. So TR and VS maxes will probably have high kill counts of infantry and low kill counts of other maxes.

All these numbers don't really say anything of substance about the matter of discussion here. It worked for the tanks/the magrider because tanks are very evenly distributed over the whole map everywhere in all factions and all tanks can attack at long, medium and short range. The boundary conditions were basically the same, so you could compare statistical figures with ease. Since the NC max is used in totally different ways than the other two, that makes a meaningful statistical comparison impossible. Comparing TR and VS max would work though.

you do know we are asking for raw in game data right? when developing a game such as planetside 2 the devs balance the game using this data. so to say the numbers would be irrelevant is way off base.

how do you think they balance games?lol

[Silent Thunder]

You know there's a saying "Anecdotal evidence is not evidence at all."
In other words, give us the raw data!

[Hamma]

Would love to see the raw data on this - I doubt we will though. :(

[Silent Thunder]

The sad thing is even with raw data I don't think these arguments would stop anyway. People would merely cherry pick whatever bits of the raw data support their stance. (One need look no further than the politics subform for this). However it still would be nice for the raw data to be out there for the few people who actually would do an objective analysis.

[mrmrmrj]

There is a very simple test to see if the scat max is OP. Are the majority of NC troopers running around in them? The answer is obviously no. They are a rare thing. They are a death sentence in the open field. They are good at one thing and one thing only: 5-10m combat. See a scat max? Fall back to 20m and kill it.

I have dual hacksaws with slugs. I spend less than 10% of my time in MAX because they just don't have the battle adaptability of HA. I have never seen a MAX crash in PS2 since I started playing in December.

[lsoul]

Yea, lets make all maxes the same. Then lets make all esf's the same, and tanks, and then infantry weapons. sounds like fun to me amirite

[Chewy]

I run dual Mattocks and still can't reliably kill at 15m without reloads. Doing a small bit of playing in the VR with slugs tells me that slugs suck. Less damage with a large random COF yet still having the same limited mag size.

A smaller example of slugs being bad is with my Mauler. Point blank 0m headshot needs 2 hits for ANY kill. 2 0m headshots with round as big as a thumb! WTF? It takes 14 0m headshots to kill a MAX with Mauler slugs! That's 2 2/3 full magazines with out extended, and 1 1/5 with extended mags. NOT worth the certs at all when you can use other weapons with much better ammo supplies and attachments. More so with MAX slugs thanks to no ADS.


Until I see raw data that proves us wrong like with Magriders, no one can tell me that NC MAXes are OP for 2 reasons.
1- We can't take our MAXes outside of any building if not on AA duty. AV weapons may hurt like hell to infantry, but they are crap for vehicles thanks to so many shells needed and their far to limiting drop rates, slow travel times, plus the cross eyed problems.
2- NC MAX weapons have the LONGEST reload times of all MAX weapons and are forced to reload the MOST. ( https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Amnj8jnZLDIOdEx6azNNdVozRmxLVkI2WnZmS2NqV 1E&gid=0 ) If I don't reload after every firing it can get me killed. Even lacking 1 shell can cost me my MAX. How many shots can a VS or TR MAX use before needing a reload or risk a death? 30? 40 maybe?

Id rip off my shotguns for a HMG if I could because from where I see things. NC MAXes are the ones that are UP thanks to having zero options of where they can be used. It's either indoors hiding behind a door/turn or nothing in ways of anti infantry. And please don't tell us to charge to close distance. That gets us killed faster than running for cover. Every time I try that it always ends up with me in the middle of an enemy nest where I die and any I might kill are revived while I bathe in my own blood and oil. It take longer than you think to get out of the charge and be able to fire again, all while you are taking more and more damage from enemy fire the closer you get.

[MGP]

There is a very simple test to see if the scat max is OP. Are the majority of NC troopers running around in them? The answer is obviously no. They are a rare thing.
If you look at this data:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AmUavphHXmIxdFhHUzJfN1VYalRnWS0xMnBUdTJpM 1E&gid=21
You will see what NC MAX is the most often used MAX. And in terms of score/hour, it performs 30% better then VS/TR MAXes.
If that's not OP, i don't know what is.

[Sturmhardt]

The thing is that the data has to be meaningful and you will have to look at numerous stats to evaluate the situation. There will be no single number (a k/d comparison or whatever) that tells us the whole truth on the matter of discussion due to the asymmetric gameplay of maxes. SOE would have to post an entire article with numerous statistics where they show what is going on. If they did that I would love to read it, absolutely. They probably looked into that matter internally, so they might have that stuff already lying on some harddrive. It's just not a simple thing for everyone to understand complex statistics like that, that's why i doubt they would release that information, in the end it could do more damage than good if people just pick a number out of context and start a shitstorm with it etc.

I also wouldn't have a problem if they just increased the range and clip size of the shotguns and decreased the damage, but I really like that the empires play differently, so I hope the asymmetry remains in some way.

.sent via phone.

[Shamrock]

Yea, lets make all maxes the same. Then lets make all esf's the same, and tanks, and then infantry weapons. sounds like fun to me amirite

Id be happy to let the NC keep MAX's as they currently are if we had a hard counter available; ie a viable AV MAX filling an anti-max role, currently none of the 3 factions MAX's are fit for this purpose.

[Shamrock]

Look at top killers on leaderboards to understand whats OP. And their "Farm" Potential.

NC - SCAT MAX
TR - HE PROWLERS
VS - Nothing.

Some examples Pella in order of kills obtained just using a MAX.

(1) Kanum, MercenaryS, Miller, 9652 kills https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618035574049/stats

(2) Reiiran, 665th Little Debbie Devil Cakes, Waterson, 8064 kills https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010917264303217/stats

(3) Rendevous, DVS Gaming, Waterson, 7411 kills https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618020031601/stats

(4) DVSDelrith, DVS Gaming,Waterson, 6651 kills https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618019910801/stats

(5) Hoody, DVS Gaming, Waterson, 6498 kills https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618035801969/stats

(6) Wisdomcube, Get Cubed On, Mattherson, 5596 kills https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618020782929/stats

(7) Thundahawk, First Cavalry Midget Mobile, Mattherson, 5153 kills https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618037565025/stats

(8) Gondor, Rapid Fire, Briggs, 4911 kills https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428011263296296017/stats

(9) Yooko, Comando Brasil, Waterson, 4905 kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428011263288535313/stats

(10) Xale, MercenaryS, Miller, 4528 kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618030929985/stats

(11) AzK , BaD aTTiTuDe, Miller, 4368 kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618038412193/stats

(12) Ryebag, MercenaryS, Miller, 3116 kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618035845745/stats

[Rumblepit]

Some examples Pella in order of kills obtained just using a MAX.

(1) Kanum, MercenaryS, Miller, 9652 kills https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618035574049/stats

(2) Reiiran, 665th Little Debbie Devil Cakes, Waterson, 8064 kills https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010917264303217/stats

(3) Rendevous, DVS Gaming, Waterson, 7411 kills https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618020031601/stats

(4) DVSDelrith, DVS Gaming,Waterson, 6651 kills https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618019910801/stats

(5) Hoody, DVS Gaming, Waterson, 6498 kills https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618035801969/stats

(6) Wisdomcube, Get Cubed On, Mattherson, 5596 kills https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618020782929/stats

(7) Thundahawk, First Cavalry Midget Mobile, Mattherson, 5153 kills https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618037565025/stats

(8) Gondor, Rapid Fire, Briggs, 4911 kills https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428011263296296017/stats

(9) Yooko, Comando Brasil, Waterson, 4905 kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428011263288535313/stats

(10) Xale, MercenaryS, Miller, 4528 kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618030929985/stats

(11) AzK , BaD aTTiTuDe, Miller, 4368 kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618038412193/stats

(12) Ryebag, MercenaryS, Miller, 3116 kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618035845745/stats


lol great job tracking that down.well i suspected this would be the case .were there any tr or vs maxes in the top 50?

[snafus]

Some examples Pella in order of kills obtained just using a MAX.

(1) Kanum, MercenaryS, Miller, 9652 kills https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618035574049/stats

(2) Reiiran, 665th Little Debbie Devil Cakes, Waterson, 8064 kills https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010917264303217/stats

(3) Rendevous, DVS Gaming, Waterson, 7411 kills https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618020031601/stats

(4) DVSDelrith, DVS Gaming,Waterson, 6651 kills https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618019910801/stats

(5) Hoody, DVS Gaming, Waterson, 6498 kills https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618035801969/stats

(6) Wisdomcube, Get Cubed On, Mattherson, 5596 kills https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618020782929/stats

(7) Thundahawk, First Cavalry Midget Mobile, Mattherson, 5153 kills https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618037565025/stats

(8) Gondor, Rapid Fire, Briggs, 4911 kills https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428011263296296017/stats

(9) Yooko, Comando Brasil, Waterson, 4905 kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428011263288535313/stats

(10) Xale, MercenaryS, Miller, 4528 kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618030929985/stats

(11) AzK , BaD aTTiTuDe, Miller, 4368 kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618038412193/stats

(12) Ryebag, MercenaryS, Miller, 3116 kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618035845745/stats

This is why we need to see the numbers so we can all see the imbalance with the NC max. Please devs release the data so we can see how this problem could be changed to make it fair for all.

[Hamma]

Holy crap.. :lol: Some telling stats there.

[Lepalose]

It would be interesting to see the stats of NC MAX kills other servers as well. Nice work on that data btw.

[Falcon_br]

I know Yooko from commando Brasil personally.

He is the one who made that Scat Max video defending it:
[Test] NC MAX vs. TR MAX Anti-infantry weaponry 11.01.13 - YouTube

Most of the time I see him, he is inside a biolab with a scat max with and 5-6 of his outfit members playing as engineer to repair him. His outfit also likes to try to ghost cap biolabs so they can do that tactic again.
He know it is overpowered, but like all NC he defends it because if they fix it, he will loose his best farm of XP.

[Revanmug]

If you look at this data:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AmUavphHXmIxdFhHUzJfN1VYalRnWS0xMnBUdTJpM 1E&gid=21
You will see what NC MAX is the most often used MAX. And in terms of score/hour, it performs 30% better then VS/TR MAXes.
If that's not OP, i don't know what is.

Be careful if you are going with those stats. With this same mentality,

Vanguard are :
-an amazing 120% inferior to Magrider
-82% inferior to the Burger tank.
-It gets worse as you check higher BR.

We could also do the Reaver which doesn't show as big difference but it's still there.

With those pretty horrible numbers, would you admit that the vanguard is simply a broken piece of unsable shit that shouldn't even exist? I know I wouldn't. Not at "that" point at least. Amusingly, number do not agree with my opinion.

I know Yooko from commando Brasil personally.


Most of the time I see him, he is inside a biolab with a scat max with and 5-6 of his outfit members playing as engineer to repair him. His outfit also likes to try to ghost cap biolabs so they can do that tactic again.
He know it is overpowered, but like all NC he defends it because if they fix it, he will loose his best farm of XP.

Because you see Scatter elsewhere than inside a Biolab? That's like making the constatation that there are lots of sniper in the open like the crown but very few to none inside the biolab or inside a tower. Thank you captain obvious. I don't think anyone realised that before.

[Shamrock]

Be careful if you are going with those stats. With this same mentality,

Vanguard are :
-an amazing 120% inferior to Magrider
-82% inferior to the Burger tank.
-It gets worse as you check higher BR.

We could also do the Reaver which doesn't show as big difference but it's still there.

With those pretty horrible numbers, would you admit that the vanguard is simply a broken piece of unsable shit that shouldn't even exist? I know I wouldn't. Not at "that" point at least. Amusingly, number do not agree with my opinion.



Because you see Scatter elsewhere than inside a Biolab? That's like making the constatation that there are lots of sniper in the open like the crown but very few to none inside the biolab or inside a tower. Thank you captain obvious. I don't think anyone realised that before.

Revanmaug, DVS Gaming, Waterson, 3752 kills https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618038173169/

and your outfit mates:-

(3) Rendevous, DVS Gaming, Waterson, 7411 kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618020031601/stats

(4) DVSDelrith, DVS Gaming,Waterson, 6651 kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618019910801/stats

(5) Hoody, DVS Gaming, Waterson, 6498 kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618035801969/stats

The 4 of you combined have 24,312 kills solely using Hacksaw Max's.

[Revanmug]

Revanmaug, DVS Gaming, Waterson, 3752 kills https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618038173169/

and your outfit mates:-

(3) Rendevous, DVS Gaming, Waterson, 7411 kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618020031601/stats

(4) DVSDelrith, DVS Gaming,Waterson, 6651 kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618019910801/stats

(5) Hoody, DVS Gaming, Waterson, 6498 kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618035801969/stats

The 4 of you combined have 24,312 kills solely using Hacksaw Max's.


-First, Spell my fucking name right. Shouldn't be too hard. It's a completly unique name and I like it spelled right.


-Second, that doesn't answer the question I ask about live stats. DO you think the Vanguard is the most awful piece of trash? Because stats believe so if we are using that as proof. I would like to point out that this was all my last post was about. I did not say my opinion if scatters were OP(lol shotgun) or not.


-Third, Yup I do use it. Never hide it. Why the hell would I stop using lol dual shotgun MAX in Bio lab huh? That's like telling me I shouldn't use the Piston on my LA because shotgun are OP. Get ready when I unlock that pump-action!
I always did say during beta that shotgun on MAX were a retard idea (actually, I find MAX to be a retard idea) but I was shoo down because I was removing "flavor." That was during the NC MAX Beta great extinction of course, when flamethrower were the only usable AI for NC. It was looking fabulous at least!


-Fourth, since you like linking kills as proof and that close to 4k kills is AMAZINGLY INCREDIBLE!!!!111!one!!1!
...
Do you think bolt action are OP as well? Just asking because you seem to have completly forgot that.
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/3460/killidiotpage.jpg


I guess the Lightning HEAT is also OP because I have close to as many kills with the few hundred vehicule destroy in addition.


-The final nail, I would like you to check that. You know, what was too obvious to be seen...
http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/3275/pagetimeidiot.jpg

As you see(if you can see), Max is far from being a class I play the most. Actually, I only use them for Bio lab. And the few rare and random Tower camping. Losing dual shotgun is the least of my worries.
...
But having the vanguard buff some more would suit me way more though. It will be buff right? I mean, it has horrible score/min compare to other tank and I'm using the same logic as some for the Scatter nerf.

EDIT:
Can we also add that Delrith has 53784 total kills? You could probably start crying about most weapon someone used with that amount of people killed.

[WarbirdTD]

I love that this guy is trying so hard to defend hacksaws and yet the stats of his own outfit show how off-base his argument is. Also, to the guy saying that Dual Mattocks are terrible... You can't lie to us anymore. VR is out now buddy, and we've all tried all the NC MAX weapons out.

To the developers: Guys, I love you for making this game. I have a tremendous amount of fun with the game, but the frustration that comes from fighting an NC MAX is getting close to ruining that enjoyment. Probably about 90% of the players want more inside infantry fights. What we DON'T want is constant One-Hit-Kills as we come around a corner or through a doorway. The TR and VS players need to hear SOMETHING about either a MAX balance pass, or at the very least a recognition of the problem. Please?

[Maidere]

NC, please stop acting like VS with their precious Magrider. Thank you.

[Chewy]

Some examples Pella in order of kills obtained just using a MAX.

(sniped to lower space)



May I ask how you filtered those stats? Did you only look at NC players and ignore TR/VS or am I missing something?

Using the leaderboards top 100 filtering by monthly with sorted by kills ( https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618020782929/leaderboards/?type=list&period=Monthly&when=Today&name=kills&start=0&limit=100&view=All )
I found these people that have MAX in either their top 3 classes and/or top 3 weapons. Take note I am ignoring vehicle stats, this will toss off my data a bit but going through 100 players stats takes time. Putting filters over filters over filter that I have to do manually isn't something easy to do in a timely fashion and Im feeling lazy today.

#2 iEnz0 - TR - 17,134 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428011263330193345/stats

#4 BuzzCutPsycho - TR - 5,616 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618020696081/stats

#11 Daddy - TR - 3,088 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618035589553/stats

#14 Zratul -TR - 2,383 mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428011263288361697/stats

#16 ThundaHawk - NC - 5,053 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618037565025/stats

#18 zoidbergenstein - TR - 1,167 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428035526964394465/stats

#20 Ryebag - NC - 3,721 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618035845745/stats

#22 Kanum - NC - 9,680 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618035574049/stats

#25 TombombadiI - TR - 2,001 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428011263320303681/stats

#27 Artorius - VS - 4,813 Cosmos kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618034862289/stats

#37 Nickxbx - TR - 348 Multilator kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428037660469420833/stats

#49 fingerlin - VS - 2,795 mix of Nebula and Quasar kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428013399823487809/stats

#54 Zircon1 - VS - 296 Quasar kills (looks like no dual for this player)
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428035526965982001/stats

#61 Sulphur - NC - 11,084 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618037453265/statsSulphur

#62 Zer0range -VS - 678 Burster kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618039528129/stats

#65 HelteR8 - VS - 1,576 Nebula kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428013610488714225/stats

#67 MadGelo - TR - 716 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428031585332368961/stats

#73 Phattie - NC - 4,047 Scattercannon kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010917244047361/stats

#83 Panzer - NC - 9,301 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010917244062817/stats

#85 LeRoy - NC - 4,261 Grinder kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618030924177/stats

#90 goatlips - TR - 2,002 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428011263424706737/stats

#91 pwqpwq - NC - 1,126 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428047126270910353/stats

#92 MPaC - VS - 1,226 mix of Quasar and Nebula kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428011263311115185/stats

#94 NewCharacters - NC - 3,023 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428019223836640865/stats

#96 Jerusalem - NC - 1,902 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428011263331677745/stats

#98 Bequ - TR - 273 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428018587883985809/stats

#100 Matlockk - TR - 1985 Cycler kills



Now after that is done lets see what we have. 27 out of the top 100 players for a months time (sorted by kills) use a MAX enough to give a worth at looking at.
The numbers per faction are.
TR - 11
NC - 10
VS - 6

Weapon most used per faction is
Tr - Mercy
NC - Hacksaw
VS - Nebula (?)

- DISCLAIMER -
Once more I say that I ignored vehicle whoring and a LOT of named players have MANY more kills than as a MAX (several thousands for most) and this skews the data a bit. There's also the "time played as" stat for the MAX I haven't stated that skew number even more (from what I remember TR FAR outnumber all others in that stat).
-end disclaimer-


Read this as you wish. My bias from putting this data out is going to keep me from giving the first opinion on the data. For now Im going to go get a drink and something to eat as doing this puckered me right out.

[Revanmug]

I love that this guy is trying so hard to defend hacksaws and yet the stats of his own outfit show how off-base his argument is.


Sigh... I guess you are talking about me.

I'm not even defending scatter. I didn't even gave any argument to defend Scatter(except myself because somehow, I did something wrong) and that's the amusing part. All I said was if you make calls only with stats, there are other material that show balance is clearly broken. The vanguard was the best example.

Stats logic:

-NC MAX has 30% advantage score/min. = OP
Alright, this might explain the amount of forum whine.

-NC MBT 120% underperform score/min = UP
Doesn't explain why there is so little thread about how underperforming it is since most people believe it is mostly fine. Such a large difference should have been seen but I've yet to see anything about it.

Right now, most people are using those stats as massive proof but are completly closing their eyes when something isn't working along. That's annoying and it's the only thing I've been defending.

Somehow, I doubt most will understand or will search to understand. Ignorance is a bliss


EDIT:
Numbers

I don't think including people with less than a thousand kill will interest much people. Probably just interested in the leaderboard of kills with a MAX. Than again, I'm not sure what was the point of it.

I guess seeing a TR with 17k kills with those Mercy is amusing.

[Rumblepit]

May I ask how you filtered those stats? Did you only look at NC players and ignore TR/VS or am I missing something?

Using the leaderboards top 100 filtering by monthly with sorted by kills ( https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618020782929/leaderboards/?type=list&period=Monthly&when=Today&name=kills&start=0&limit=100&view=All )
I found these people that have MAX in either their top 3 classes and/or top 3 weapons. Take note I am ignoring vehicle stats, this will toss off my data a bit but going through 100 players stats takes time. Putting filters over filters over filter that I have to do manually isn't something easy to do in a timely fashion and Im feeling lazy today.

#2 iEnz0 - TR - 17,134 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428011263330193345/stats

#4 BuzzCutPsycho - TR - 5,616 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618020696081/stats

#11 Daddy - TR - 3,088 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618035589553/stats

#14 Zratul -TR - 2,383 mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428011263288361697/stats

#16 ThundaHawk - NC - 5,053 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618037565025/stats

#18 zoidbergenstein - TR - 1,167 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428035526964394465/stats

#20 Ryebag - NC - 3,721 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618035845745/stats

#22 Kanum - NC - 9,680 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618035574049/stats

#25 TombombadiI - TR - 2,001 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428011263320303681/stats

#27 Artorius - VS - 4,813 Cosmos kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618034862289/stats

#37 Nickxbx - TR - 348 Multilator kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428037660469420833/stats

#49 fingerlin - VS - 2,795 mix of Nebula and Quasar kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428013399823487809/stats

#54 Zircon1 - VS - 296 Quasar kills (looks like no dual for this player)
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428035526965982001/stats

#61 Sulphur - NC - 11,084 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618037453265/statsSulphur

#62 Zer0range -VS - 678 Burster kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618039528129/stats

#65 HelteR8 - VS - 1,576 Nebula kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428013610488714225/stats

#67 MadGelo - TR - 716 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428031585332368961/stats

#73 Phattie - NC - 4,047 Scattercannon kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010917244047361/stats

#83 Panzer - NC - 9,301 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010917244062817/stats

#85 LeRoy - NC - 4,261 Grinder kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618030924177/stats

#90 goatlips - TR - 2,002 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428011263424706737/stats

#91 pwqpwq - NC - 1,126 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428047126270910353/stats

#92 MPaC - VS - 1,226 mix of Quasar and Nebula kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428011263311115185/stats

#94 NewCharacters - NC - 3,023 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428019223836640865/stats

#96 Jerusalem - NC - 1,902 Hacksaw kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428011263331677745/stats

#98 Bequ - TR - 273 Mercy kills
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428018587883985809/stats

#100 Matlockk - TR - 1985 Cycler kills



Now after that is done lets see what we have. 27 out of the top 100 players for a months time (sorted by kills) use a MAX enough to give a worth at looking at.
The numbers per faction are.
TR - 11
NC - 10
VS - 6

Weapon most used per faction is
Tr - Mercy
NC - Hacksaw
VS - Nebula (?)

- DISCLAIMER -
Once more I say that I ignored vehicle whoring and a LOT of named players have MANY more kills than as a MAX (several thousands for most) and this skews the data a bit. There's also the "time played as" stat for the MAX I haven't stated that skew number even more (from what I remember TR FAR outnumber all others in that stat).
-end disclaimer-


Read this as you wish. My bias from putting this data out is going to keep me from giving the first opinion on the data. For now Im going to go get a drink and something to eat as doing this puckered me right out.

im sorry, but you may have wasted alot of your own time with this. thats a mess ,and im way to tired to even begin to break down how many things are wrong with your list,and the way you filtered it, lol.....

try this...

max, main class,kills,top 100, all servers......

[LoliLoveFart]

A common misconception is that statistics provide a measure of proof that something is true. Instead, statistics provide a measure of the probability of observing a certain result. It is easy to misuse the statistics in data analysis even to the point of misconception because statistics do not introduce systematic error which can be introduced into the data intentionally or accidentally. There are many associated variables in statistical numbers that the person analyzing the data does not see, and without further explanation or supportive data, one can easily come to the wrong conclusion and the data could be presented as facts rather than probability. If the source from which the data was gathered was not factual, then this will reflect a statistic that is misleading, biased, and based on false information, but those persons who might later interpret the data had no idea that the source was not factual, and as a result wrong information is publicized. Because statistics deal with numbers they often seem to be more convincing and less suspicious of false claim than descriptive arguments, but numbers can be easily manipulated in favor of someone’s opinion.

I'm not defending Scat Maxes, just be aware statistics can be skewed very very very easily.

[Lepalose]

A common misconception is that statistics provide a measure of proof that something is true. Instead, statistics provide a measure of the probability of observing a certain result. It is easy to misuse the statistics in data analysis even to the point of misconception because statistics do not introduce systematic error which can be introduced into the data intentionally or accidentally. There are many associated variables in statistical numbers that the person analyzing the data does not see, and without further explanation or supportive data, one can easily come to the wrong conclusion and the data could be presented as facts rather than probability. If the source from which the data was gathered was not factual, then this will reflect a statistic that is misleading, biased, and based on false information, but those persons who might later interpret the data had no idea that the source was not factual, and as a result wrong information is publicized. Because statistics deal with numbers they often seem to be more convincing and less suspicious of false claim than descriptive arguments, but numbers can be easily manipulated in favor of someone’s opinion.

I'm not defending Scat Maxes, just be aware statistics can be skewed very very very easily.

This is correct.

But again, I will say it is far better to have data to perform analysis on and have a more in depth discussion rather then just the non quantitative arguments that are going on currently.

Good analysis of data will hold up under scrutiny, and considering the intense interest of people on both sides you can bet there will be a fair bit of skepticism over any analysis. This is a good thing though, as the best analyses will come through.

[Chewy]

im sorry, but you may have wasted alot of your own time with this. thats a mess ,and im way to tired to even begin to break down how many things are wrong with your list,and the way you filtered it, lol.....

try this...

max, main class,kills,top 100, all servers......

And where am I suppose to do that? The only filters I can find on that leaderboard are One Life (greyed out. I would have used that instead of monthly but can't), Daily, Weekly, Monthly, Forever, Friends, All, World, and amount per page. Everything past that I have to look for myself by opening each and every page and reading it.

If the NC MAX is as OPed as you claim then it should be at least in a good % of monthly kills and not in a near 50/50 tie with what TR MAX users I found. It is your side that claims that a majority of fights happen in CQC areas, am I right? Then why does a, as you claim, OP class that rules all CQC fights not have a higher % than anything else when the majority of fights happen in CQC?

Granted what I pulled isn't great, but it is all I have around me to work with. That is the only site I know of that lets us get stats with any depth worth bringing into this discussion (sorry PSU stats page). Is there a stat dump I don't know of that lets one filter to that extent? If so PLEASE tell me, Id be happy to dig deep into that bitch and find something if it proves this either way. I'll put the egg on my face myself if it would end this crap. Just point me to where I can get what you are looking for. Till then this is all I can pull with what I have. At least I gave how I got my stats, what filters I used, how I used them, and why I pulled those stats. I didn't cherry pick information like Shamrock seemed to do and gave all of what I found.


It's been said before. Working with stats is a VERY confusing thing. You have to account for far more than just one part and need to see EVERYTHING all at once or it will end badly. I am working with a very limited information and could use the help. So please if you know of something I don't then point me to it.



Revanmug-
The thought of giving everyone, including the low kill count players, was to show that they are a MAX user and even in the hands of a low skill/time player something OP should stand out in their stats. After thinking over what I posted, I should have added "time played" with those kills. If that stat page shown a "deaths as" for players then it would also need to be added (Id LOVE to see this added). In fact a "deaths as" stat is VITAL for something like this and I have no way to get that data.

As an example of time spent as MAX with that 17K Mercy kill player and the 9.6K Hacksaw kill would be.
88 hours for the 9.6K Hacksaw kills
278 hours for the 17K Mercy kills

Odd, the NC player has 31% of the time played as a MAX as of the TR player, but has roughly 56% of the kills. That brings up a few questions alone. But from what I can see there is just so much getting in the way of things. Overall K/D is useless as both are aircraft whores and that is fucking with kill feed as well. Another odd thing is the weapons scores are equal between them, each Hacksaw has 1.7mil score and each mercy has 3.6mil score. So that falls in line near perfect with the number of kills being about half as well (to be honest I have no fucking clue how scores are added up)

There just isn't enough data to for me to sort out. From just what I see that lone NC MAX has an edge of the lone TR MAX but without a "deaths as" for each class/vehicle lost and a way to remove vehicle whoring numbers it is impossible for me to know anything with just 2 people.

There are reasons the public doesn't see raw data often. It is fucking hard to read if just one bit of missing and can be read any way you want in small samples.

[snafus]

Planetside 2 - Comic - YouTube

Related.

[Mordelicius]

LOL. Sure nerf the NC Max. NC Max is only OP due to the existence of Biolabs. I don't use Max but I love Biolabs fights and they are good at defending doorsways.

But if Biolabs do not exist, the maxes would be balanced.
NC has the close ranged Max.
TR has the medium ranged Max.
VS has the sniper max.

While you're at nerfing everything OP. Nerf all Vanu weapons as well. Accuracy is absolute king in infantry fights. ROF is second.

NC has all the crap in this game, nerfing our only 'advantage' won't make a hell of a difference. Reminds me when the MBT were bugged. NC were all on foot literally and it didn't changed anything in terms of territories because our MBT is what you can call a "non-factor".

Have you heard? Vanu Waterson is gloating at the main forum after they capped Indar "12 hours" after getting the north Warpgate. An overpopulated TR can't do it. An overly organized NC can't either. But Vanu can do it like nothing. :lol:

Therefore, show all the Max K/D stats and separate pure infantry stats for all factions (minus the Max).

[EvilGAmmA]

I know my opinion will not be popular on this. I play both TR and NC, and as both I say the NC maxes are fine, it's just the other empires maxes are lacking and need to be brought up to speed.

Frankly what bothers me most about the game at this point , it's continually being watered down to suit the complainers. Less complaining more killing!

Like the changes being made to CE ie at and ai mines and c4, all retarded just allow engineers to disarm all of the above and leave them alone.

[Falcon_br]

LOL. Sure nerf the NC Max. NC Max is only OP due to the existence of Biolabs. I don't use Max but I love Biolabs fights and they are good at defending doorsways.

But if Biolabs do not exist, the maxes would be balanced.
NC has the close ranged Max.
TR has the medium ranged Max.
VS has the sniper max.

While you're at nerfing everything OP. Nerf all Vanu weapons as well. Accuracy is absolute king in infantry fights. ROF is second.

NC has all the crap in this game, nerfing our only 'advantage' won't make a hell of a difference. Reminds me when the MBT were bugged. NC were all on foot literally and it didn't changed anything in terms of territories because our MBT is what you can call a "non-factor".

Have you heard? Vanu Waterson is gloating at the main forum after they capped Indar "12 hours" after getting the north Warpgate. An overpopulated TR can't do it. An overly organized NC can't either. But Vanu can do it like nothing. :lol:

Therefore, show all the Max K/D stats and separate pure infantry stats for all factions (minus the Max).

Off topic

Dude the VS only have 25% up to 30% of players in waterson. The NC got from 33% up to 40%!
TR got Indar north gate for a long time and Indar was under TR control.
With the merge the NC got the highest population and Indar north gate.
Maybe for a full month or more, Indar didn't got conquered by anyone! TR almost did it sometimes, but the Vanu didn't allow it.
Now that the Vanu got the north gate, they conquered Indar in 12 hours, the NC of Waterson should be ashamed of that forever.
The best part that now we got tawrich tech plant that is easy to defend and you guys got hvar that it is under attack all the time.

[Shamrock]

-First, Spell my fucking name right. Shouldn't be too hard. It's a completly unique name and I like it spelled right.

How about I pay more attention to spelling name's right and you learn how not to be rude and show some common courtesy.

-Second, that doesn't answer the question I ask about live stats. DO you think the Vanguard is the most awful piece of trash? Because stats believe so if we are using that as proof. I would like to point out that this was all my last post was about. I did not say my opinion if scatters were OP(lol shotgun) or not.

I happen to think the Vanny could do with an armor buff, its feels boxy, slow and easy to hit. But this thread is not about MBT's...


-Third, Yup I do use it. Never hide it. Why the hell would I stop using lol dual shotgun MAX in Bio lab huh? That's like telling me I shouldn't use the Piston on my LA because shotgun are OP. Get ready when I unlock that pump-action!
I always did say during beta that shotgun on MAX were a retard idea (actually, I find MAX to be a retard idea) but I was shoo down because I was removing "flavor." That was during the NC MAX Beta great extinction of course, when flamethrower were the only usable AI for NC. It was looking fabulous at least!

You were not up front about it when you made your post; ie you were less than candid. If I argue on behalf of something I or my colleagues use I first look at my own position and that of my colleagues, If I am a heavy user of the very thing I'm trying to justify I will open up with a disclaimer or I know my argument will be rebutted with claims of bias.

-Fourth, since you like linking kills as proof and that close to 4k kills is AMAZINGLY INCREDIBLE!!!!111!one!!1!

Your getting a little hysterical here, 4k may not be amazing to you but to majority of the player base and even a certain proportion of players on the leader-boards it constitutes heavy use of a MAX.
...
Do you think bolt action are OP as well? Just asking because you seem to have completly forgot that.
http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/3460/killidiotpage.jpg


I guess the Lightning HEAT is also OP because I have close to as many kills with the few hundred vehicule destroy in addition.


-The final nail, I would like you to check that. You know, what was too obvious to be seen...
http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/3275/pagetimeidiot.jpg

Your labeling of your jpg's "killidiotpage", "pagetimeidiot", again see first point, try to learn some common courtesy when discussing a point, the only person you make look bad when being rude is yourself.

NB: I may have many flaws, but being an idiot isn't one of them, I have a Masters in law and a Masters in business, I rarely meet lawyers that are more highly qualified than me.

As you see(if you can see), Max is far from being a class I play the most. Actually, I only use them for Bio lab. And the few rare and random Tower camping. Losing dual shotgun is the least of my worries.
...
But having the vanguard buff some more would suit me way more though. It will be buff right? I mean, it has horrible score/min compare to other tank and I'm using the same logic as some for the Scatter nerf.

Once again id happily see the vanny get an armor buff, but that isn't the subject of this thread.

EDIT:
Can we also add that Delrith has 53784 total kills? You could probably start crying about most weapon someone used with that amount of people killed.

The thread isn't about the sum total of his kills; its about a situational advantage the NC MAX has over and above the other 2 factions that is utterly disproportionate. You and your friends are well aware of this and to all intents and purposes appear to be fighting tooth and nail to maintain that unfair advantage.

[Sledgecrushr]

I would give up the nc OPness in biolabs for a max system that wasnt so very situational. I would like to be able to take my ai nc max outside like the vs and tr do and still be sucessful at owning people in the face.

[Shamrock]

I would give up the nc OPness in biolabs for a max system that wasnt so very situational. I would like to be able to take my ai nc max outside like the vs and tr do and still be sucessful at owning people in the face.

I would be happy to see that, the old PS1 scat (forgive me Hamma) didn't lay down even half the burst damage the PS2 one does, but what it did have was a chargeable shield which when fully charged virtually added another 30% onto your hit points, making them considerably tougher than TR and VS MAX's. This fits the NC design philosophy, slow, tough, hard hitting.

[Binkley]

It seems to me that Hacksaws are UP. At close range it takes two shots from a Hacksaw to kill someone, not even as good as a pump shotgun. Okay, rate of fire and DPS are higher than a pump, but look at those things! Seriously? Those massive three-barrel guns can't OSK and a pump shotgun can??

[snafus]

I would be happy to see that, the old PS1 scat (forgive me Hamma) didn't lay down even half the burst damage the PS2 one does, but what it did have was a chargeable shield which when fully charged virtually added another 30% onto your hit points, making them considerably tougher than TR and VS MAX's. This fits the NC design philosophy, slow, tough, hard hitting.

I just want the devs to at least say they will look into it. Publishing the overall stats would even be better. But as for changes I'm totally cool with each max having a trait, just as long it doesn't unbalance the game in the process.

[Rolfski]

Scat Maxes are not OP per se, it's the base design that makes them completely off balance in some situations. Most notoriously generator rooms of biolabs. Today I witnessed a 20+ TR Max crash completely obliterated by just a handful of Scat Maxes guarding the behind doors of the Manu biolab generator room . This should simply not be possible.

Base design should give players options to overcome the strengths of a Scat Max. Key locations like SCU generator rooms should be accessible from the top as well. Right now Scat Maxes are just way too strong in these situations.

[Redshift]

Scat Maxes are not OP per se, it's the base design that makes them completely off balance in some situations. Most notoriously generator rooms of biolabs. Today I witnessed a 20+ TR Max crash completely obliterated by just a handful of Scat Maxes guarding the behind doors of the Manu biolab generator room . This should simply not be possible.

Base design should give players options to overcome the strengths of a Scat Max. Key locations like SCU generator rooms should be accessible from the top as well. Right now Scat Maxes are just way too strong in these situations.

Nah it's the design, NC maxes only work point blank others need range, you can't balance that, either you have to give all empire something similar or you have to change the NC max, it was exactly the same problem in PS1.

Personally i'd have gone for giving the NC max somekind of autocannon instead.

Just imagine that only the NC had access to shotguns on infantry.... imagine what that would be like and how silly it would be.... hopefully you can see how that would be unbalancable to, it's the same issue.

[Sledgecrushr]

Im ready for the devs to just totally break the scat max and then give the NC a comparable weapon to the mercy. I just dont ever really get to play a max outside of a bio lab and make any kind of difference other than being a bullet sponge. Devs, just take away the six barrels of point blank insta death and give us a weapon system that is more rounded and usable in different situations.

[Rumblepit]

well breaking it would solve nothing, but everyone seems to think if it gets nerfed it will be useless. this might be the case as shotguns are very hard to balance.

there are many ways to look at it..... like gamma said, some think the NC max isnt op,and the TR and VS are just gimp,but no matter what the case maybe it still needs to be addressed .

[Gonefshn]

Not going to lie after testing the scat max in the VR room I will take my double Quasar MAX over a scat max any day because of the 50 round magazine. A scat max can instagib infantry, but my quasar max can sustain the damage for a much longer time without reloading. I was strongly supporting nerfing the scat max until I tested it in the VR and realized how small the clip is. Honestly I prefer the VS max suit.

This is all coming from a tried and true VS player. The scat max is fine, I have changed my mind.

[moosepoop]

scat max needs more rounds and less dmg, make it more sustained dmg over time.

point blank OHK is ok, 10 meteres is too far.

[Binkley]

I don't see what all the fuss is about. A single scatter/hacksaw can't OHK, it's not even as good as a pump shotgun.

[Redshift]

I don't see what all the fuss is about. A single scatter/hacksaw can't OHK, it's not even as good as a pump shotgun.

Good job they can hold two then.... ^^

[phungus]

I just want the devs to at least say they will look into it. Publishing the overall stats would even be better. But as for changes I'm totally cool with each max having a trait, just as long it doesn't unbalance the game in the process.

If there is an inherent advantage to NC MAXes, we as players can find it given the publicly available search tools using a simple and reasonable statistical analysis test. We don't need devs to confirm or post the stats, we can do so ourselves.

Proposal:

Take 1000 players from each faction, chosen randomly. Compare average MAX SPH. With such a large sample size, and if the players are selected at random, if there is a large SPH hike for any of the factions you can reasonably conclude that faction has an inherent advantage at gaining points. Based on my experience, and the fact AA MAX duty will help average out the curve, I suspect NC MAXes will average around 40% higher SPH then their TR and VS counterparts.

[Pella]

The Devs reduced the Scatmax's range in the previous patch.

What a massive difference that made...

[ChipMHazard]

The Devs reduced the Scatmax's range in the previous patch.

What a massive difference that made...

By Higby's beard, that means they will only be useable in Biola... Oh, wait...:p

[Neutral Calypso]

By Higby's beard, that means they will only be useable in Biola... Oh, wait...:p

Higby has a beard? har har

[Sledgecrushr]

My computer doesnt track very well at close range. I have a shit computer and too much wheeling around creates a lot of lag and fps stuttering. And as a nc player I am stuck with a shotgun. Its all point blank spinning in a circle kinda gameplay. This shit is not friendly with my rig. So devs give us a high volume lmg style weapon for max. This would really work well with the hardware that I have AND GIVE ME OPTIONS FOR MAX PLAY OUTSIDE OF A BIODOME!!! So please devs just take away the nc shotguns, Im tired of being a one trick pony with a super laggy weapon system.

[Chewy]

Just to give a heads up, I am uploading 3 videos of weapon tests for dual Hacksaws (stock and slugs), Mercies (stock), and Cosmoses (stock). Each one shows the amount of shots needed to kill at 10m increments as well as an approximate amount of burst fire up until a reload is needed for both MAX and infantry kills. So far only the Hacksaw video is online and the Mercy one is uploading as I type but it still has 3.5 hours to go and have yet to start the Cosmos upload.

When all 3 are up I will post them here for everyone to give their opinions. Same with those stats that where more or less ignored I will hold off my opinion until after everyone has seen them and gave their opinion. If things go well they all should be posted here tomorrow.

[Shamrock]

Chewy102 I must be getting unobservant but I just noticed your in the outfit DVS Gaming along with these guys listed below; anyone else from DVS want to enter this thread with some You-Tube vids; we already know the most commonly posted one by NC was set up by this guy: (9) Yooko, Comando Brasil, Waterson, 4905 scat MAX kills. Id like to see some comparator vid's made by TR or VS players on the subject.

Revanmug, DVS Gaming, Waterson, 3752 Scat Max kills.

(3) Rendevous, DVS Gaming, Waterson, 7411 Scat MAX kills

(4) DVSDelrith, DVS Gaming,Waterson, 6651 Scat MAX kills

(5) Hoody, DVS Gaming, Waterson, 6498 Scat MAX kills.

[Sledgecrushr]

Chewy102 I must be getting unobservant but I just noticed your in the outfit DVS Gaming along with these guys listed below; anyone else from DVS want to enter this thread with some You-Tube vids; we already know the most commonly posted one by NC was set up by this guy: (9) Yooko, Comando Brasil, Waterson, 4905 scat MAX kills. Id like to see some comparator vid's made by TR or VS players on the subject.

Revanmug, DVS Gaming, Waterson, 3752 Scat Max kills.

(3) Rendevous, DVS Gaming, Waterson, 7411 Scat MAX kills

(4) DVSDelrith, DVS Gaming,Waterson, 6651 Scat MAX kills

(5) Hoody, DVS Gaming, Waterson, 6498 Scat MAX kills.

I know a little bit about dvsdelrith. I know that he is absolutely deadly with any class that he wants to play. I am also pretty sure that he got into trouble for stat padding. Now I absolutely agree that the scat max has an overwhelming advantage when it comes to point blank warfare. I slso believe that there are some people taking Dvantage of the niche advantage that the scat max gives by fighting almost entirely in bio labs. But it is only a niche advantage, i want a nc max that is better at other things as well.

[Chewy]

Chewy102 I must be getting unobservant but I just noticed your in the outfit DVS Gaming along with these guys listed below; anyone else from DVS want to enter this thread with some You-Tube vids; we already know the most commonly posted one by NC was set up by this guy: (9) Yooko, Comando Brasil, Waterson, 4905 scat MAX kills. Id like to see some comparator vid's made by TR or VS players on the subject.

Revanmug, DVS Gaming, Waterson, 3752 Scat Max kills.

(3) Rendevous, DVS Gaming, Waterson, 7411 Scat MAX kills

(4) DVSDelrith, DVS Gaming,Waterson, 6651 Scat MAX kills

(5) Hoody, DVS Gaming, Waterson, 6498 Scat MAX kills.

Yes, I am in the DVS outfit and that holds nothing for me. I have said time and time again that what I say and do has nothing to do with DVS as I have zero permissions to speak for DVS. I hold no rights in anything DVS related and have no say in any DVS matters. Other than having the DVS tags I have nothing that ties me to DVS and the fact that I have those tags should not matter in this discussion. I am a single grunt that solely uses DVS for the good fights and be apart of an organized team without being forced to run my own outfit or suffer shit public squads for many hours on end.

Why do you keep bringing outfits into this anyway? This thread is about possible OPness of the NC MAX and not anything else. Further more you keep posting the same things over and over without telling anything about how you got that data. Where did you search for you data? What filters did you use? Why have you not posted ANY data about non NC players? Why have you not told us any of these things yet? These are things we NEED to know if we are to take your word for value. Otherwise is reads as you just spewing hate for a class that you can't deal with. Please tell us.

I can't discuss anything with someone that refuses to explain a thing about what they give. I gave everything about the stats I pulled, just asking for the same from you.

[Binkley]

Good job they can hold two then.... ^^

Sure, a MAX can carry two and OHK by firing both together, we all know that. I was just giving some perspective by pointing out that a Hacksaw is weaker than a pump shotgun. If we are alright with infantry running around with short range OHK weapons, then it doesn't seem a stretch for a MAX to have the same capability.

[Neutral Calypso]

Sure, a MAX can carry two and OHK by firing both together, we all know that. I was just giving some perspective by pointing out that a Hacksaw is weaker than a pump shotgun. If we are alright with infantry running around with short range OHK weapons, then it doesn't seem a stretch for a MAX to have the same capability.

The issue is not so much that a MAX has that capability. It is that the NC MAX is the only one with that capability.

[Sledgecrushr]

The issue is not so much that a MAX has that capability. It is that the NC MAX is the only one with that capability.

And you know what, It really does kinda suck that the only thing the nc max can do is lurk behind a door waiting for some sap to walk into my sweetspot. It sucks that the nc max was designed to be a shotgun. I dont use a shotgun all the time its a situational weapon. All I want are fifty round clips and the ability to shred infantry at up to 50 meters or so. You know, like the other maxes.

[Neutral Calypso]

And we want your shotgun so we can roxorez your soxorez in biolabs too. :D

[Chewy]

And you know what, It really does kinda suck that the only thing the nc max can do is lurk behind a door waiting for some sap to walk into my sweetspot. It sucks that the nc max was designed to be a shotgun. I dont use a shotgun all the time its a situational weapon. All I want are fifty round clips and the ability to shred infantry at up to 50 meters or so. You know, like the other maxes.

Past 50 meters. In my tests I was killing targets at 70 meters without reloading with dual Mercies. Granted it took about 50-70 shots out of the 100 total at 70m under full auto COF but anything made of flesh in the open would be dead. Not even Hacksaw slugs can go past 30m without a LOT of luck although it only takes 3 hits for a kill infantry at that range.

An odd bit was how random the Cosmos was at ranges past 50m. That thing was all over the place it seemed. I only have 1 video left to upload (VS MAX) so you all can see what Im talking about, with hope, tomorrow. Don't really want to post the first 2 just yet so that all 3 can be compared at once/will.

[MGP]

And you know what, It really does kinda suck that the only thing the nc max can do is lurk behind a door waiting for some sap to walk into my sweetspot. It sucks that the nc max was designed to be a shotgun. I dont use a shotgun all the time its a situational weapon. All I want are fifty round clips and the ability to shred infantry at up to 50 meters or so. You know, like the other maxes.

That's the main problem with NC. They got in their heads what TR and VS MAXes are effective outside of CQC. They're not. Past 30 meters all AI MAXes are bad. If i see an VS MAX withhit 30-50 meters, outside of the base, i wouldn't even bother with launcher, and just gun him down with LMG.

You NC guys want some "mythical" MAXes that are effective in long ranges. Well, i'd like to get that too for my TR, because Mercy is pretty close/medium range weapon, that is good only up to 30 meters.

All AI MAXes in this game are close range weapons, TR and VS are mediocre at best, and NC is godlike.

[moosepoop]

the biggest design flaw is that NC is given advantage in CQC, because ALL INDOOR FIGHTS ARE CQC.


nerf the scat damage and double/triple the magazine size, increase accuracy at longer ranges.

[BIGGByran]

The Devs reduced the Scatmax's range in the previous patch.

What a massive difference that made...

Maybe they can nerf the range enough to where we would have to shove the scat up the TR/VS ass to kill them cause any shots outside of their ass would deal shit damage. :D

[almalino]

Why MAX should be nerfed? Imho MAXes all deadly for the infantry :)

Do not mess with maxes on foot :)

[Maarvy]

The max vs max stats will be about as worthless as the tank vs tank stats were .

Just like the magrider vs other tanks couldnt take in to consideration that the amount of magriders spawned outnumbered the amount of other tanks by a great deal , that magriders always had 2/2 vs 2/1 vanguards or prowlers since there 2nd guns were broken etc etc .

The max stats you get if presented in the same half arsed manner wont show which max's use dual wepons or have flack/kinetic armor or which ones are spawned more .

Lets not forget that a max balance pass is coming with new wepons and that SOE dosent realy give a shit about ballance when it adds new wepons so long as you buy them . Heres what will happen ... You guys willl get max stats , all go ape shit and get the scat max nerfed in tot he ground . 1 week later the max ballance will go down and anyone with the new wepon will LoL a scat max at close range with ur new flamers .

[Electrofreak]

That's the main problem with NC. They got in their heads what TR and VS MAXes are effective outside of CQC. They're not. Past 30 meters all AI MAXes are bad. If i see an VS MAX withhit 30-50 meters, outside of the base, i wouldn't even bother with launcher, and just gun him down with LMG.

You NC guys want some "mythical" MAXes that are effective in long ranges. Well, i'd like to get that too for my TR, because Mercy is pretty close/medium range weapon, that is good only up to 30 meters.

All AI MAXes in this game are close range weapons, TR and VS are mediocre at best, and NC is godlike.

Sorry, but I've played enough with TR and VS MAXes enough to know this is not true. They're not long range weapons by any stretch of the imagination but they are actually usable outside, where the Scat MAX is effectively worthless.

Fact is, the TR and VS want the point-blank awesomeness that is the scattercannon, and the NC want the flexibility of an automatic AI weapon useable outside point-blank ranges. Now, the reality is that we already know that the TR and VS will be getting what they want, as it's already been announced that the NS flamethrower will be making a return at some point. I used that gun over the scattercannon in beta because of how effective it was at CQC. As long as some tweaking is done to the weapon effects it'll be a great solution for the TR and VS.

The only question remaining now is how the NC is going to have any weapon available to their MAX that isn't only effective at point-blank... the scattercannon and the flamethrower are unfortunately pretty redundant in terms of effectiveness at range.

[CzuukWaterson]

Probably true. Scatter cannon and Hacksaws are OP for sure. You have to have extreme range to kill these safely without a vehicle or C4. The other 2 faction maxes are far underpowered if the NC max is how they want others to stack up. TR in my outfit was playing with his mercy minigun weapons on his max and he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn... it was laughable how badly it missed.

No. Video evidence to the contrary. Past 7 meters NC MAXes loose 99% of the time.

[snafus]

I would love to see how the MLG guys felt about the scat max balance.

[Chewy]

NC MAX Hacksaw tests - YouTube

TR MAX Mercy tests - YouTube

VS MAX Cosmos tests - YouTube

As I said, 3 videos of MAX weapons with each showing number of shots needed for infantry and MAX kills as well as an estimate of burst fire needed at 10 meter intervals. I stopped tests for infantry once at distances reloads are needed but went for as many reloads as needed for MAX kills until that number or distance gets to large to be of use in combat.
In short for those not wanting to watch me shoot at VR targets, my test findings are.

-NC-
Stock Hacksaw-
Infantry
0m, 2 shot kill
10m, 2-4 hit kill
20m, 9-12 hit kill with possible reload if full auto.

MAX
0m, 12 shot kill
10m, 16-17 shot kill. One reload needed
20m, 56 shot kill. 3 reloads needed


Hacksaw slugs- (I had a LOT of fail with this part. It was late and wasn't thinking right when editing)
MAX
0m, 21 slug kill 2 reloads
10m, 21 slugs 2 reloads
20m, 21 slugs again but with chances of missing from here out. 2-3 reloads

Infantry
0m, 2 slugs (even pure headshots)
10m, 2 slug kill
20m, 3 slug kill with good chance to miss
30m, 2-4 slug kill with a high miss chance
(reloads may not be needed if all shots are fired in single shot to remove COF and recoil effects. But without slow controlled fire, reloads can be needed from 20m and out)

-TR-
Dual Mercy-
Infantry
0m, 7 hit kill
10m, 8 hit kill with about a 10 round burst
20m, 8 hit kill with about a 16-20 round burst
30m, 7 hit kill with about a 20 round burst
40m, 8 hit kill with about a 20-24 round burst
50m, a 30-50 round burst needed (stopped doing shingle shots due to people spawning on me and getting in the way)
60m, about a 50 round burst
70m, 50 round burst

MAX (nothing but full auto fire)
0m, 70 shot kill
10m, 72-74 shot kill
20m, 110-115 shot kill. One reload needed
30m, 150-170 shot kill. One reload needed


-VS-
Dual Cosmos-
Infantry
0m, 6 hit kill
10m, 6-7 hit kill with about a 10 round burst
20m, 7 hit kill with about a 16-18 round burst
30m, 5-7 hit kill with about a 18-20 round burst
40m, (many pests for this one) Anywhere between a 26-30ish round burst
50m, 34 round burst
60m, 34-36 round burst
70m, Random as hell. 70-120 round burst (might have did this one wrong somehow)

MAX (full auto fire only)
0m, 59-60 round burst
10m, 70-74 round burst
20m, 78-80 round burst
30m, 114 round burst
39m (damn tree), 150-151 round burst, likely one reload needed


As with those stats I posted before my opinion is going to be held back. I am letting the videos be my opinions for now until feedback is given. Have fun ripping me apart :domotwak:

[Electrofreak]

The video evidences in those tests are pretty damning.

Hacksaw MAX, as expected, pwns everything under 20 meters. Above that, you're going through at least 1 reload just to kill an infantry, even if he's standing still for you.

The TR Dual Mercy can shred infantry out to around 70 meters without having to reload, and only has a fraction of a second longer TTK than Hacksaws at point blank.

The VS Cosmos does nearly as well with the benefit of 50% larger clips.

Sorry, but give me the versatility to use my MAX suit outside, and I'll give you those damn shotguns.

[WarbirdTD]

Do you ever see MAXes of any kind surviving outside though? TR and VS maxes run between buildings because being outside in a MAX means death. The major issue here is the amount of one-shot-kills that happen on the inside of any major base, any tower, any building in which a point is housed. The highest health infantry unit should not be able to one-hit-kill, and it MOST CERTAINLY should not be refiring as fast as a Hacksaw does. I'm ok with it being "automatic" but either the refire rate needs a nerf, or the ridiculous damage needs a nerf. Personally, I'd like NC MAX weapons to be reimagined, and MAX shotguns be poofed, but that's not likely to happen unfortunately.

[Sledgecrushr]

Do you ever see MAXes of any kind surviving outside though? TR and VS maxes run between buildings because being outside in a MAX means death. The major issue here is the amount of one-shot-kills that happen on the inside of any major base, any tower, any building in which a point is housed. The highest health infantry unit should not be able to one-hit-kill, and it MOST CERTAINLY should not be refiring as fast as a Hacksaw does. I'm ok with it being "automatic" but either the refire rate needs a nerf, or the ridiculous damage needs a nerf. Personally, I'd like NC MAX weapons to be reimagined, and MAX shotguns be poofed, but that's not likely to happen unfortunately.

Did you watch the videos? 56 shots, 3 reloads to kill a max at 20 meters. Give me a fucking break here.

[Revanmug]

How about I pay more attention to spelling name's right and you learn how not to be rude and show some common courtesy.

Considering the way you answer (You did not) to my post, I think that would be ironic to ask for courtesy don't you think? Look at yourself next time... If you can.


I happen to think the Vanny could do with an armor buff, its feels boxy, slow and easy to hit. But this thread is not about MBT's...

If you were able to read, you would realise my post wasn't about the Vanguard but about using stats as the only proof needed for balance.

If 30% higher score/min prove that a scattermax is completly broken, it is pretty clear that the Vanguard siting 120% lower in score/min to a magrider is even more retardly broken.

Amusingly, you pretty much prove my point. It doesn't not need a simple slight armor increase, it need everything to be revamp. People like you are mostly twisting stats their way when using those as absolute. All this is according to the Scatter being totaly broken and the stat sheet of course. Live experience doesn't really confirm much of the vanguard stats and it had nothing to do with MGP's post which I was replying to. Simply, stats should help and not simply being all you need.

Did you actually bother reading that post too? I doubt it.

You were not up front about it when you made your post; ie you were less than candid. If I argue on behalf of something I or my colleagues use I first look at my own position and that of my colleagues, If I am a heavy user of the very thing I'm trying to justify I will open up with a disclaimer or I know my argument will be rebutted with claims of bias.

I was not up front with my post? lol. How could I be "less than candid" when I didn't even talk about scatter. Are you talking about my edit reply? Are you saying you saw ScatterMax outside CQC area dominating everything? Because that would be simply lying. It's fairly obvious that people using shotgun weaponry is going to remain in CQC areas fairly often. Any other obvious declaration to make?

Since I never argue about the power of the NC MAX, it is impossible for me to argue "on the behalf of something." As for oufit member, they can do anything they want since I have no power over DVS and so, none over their playtime. My hatred/love of certain tactic and/or weaponry is also my business only and doesn't/shouldn't affect anyone of the outfit. You should probably lay off your hatred of DVS if you want interesting discussion.

As for the heavy use comment... My MAX total use timewise is of 7%. If 7% of 6 class is huge for you, I suggest you redo your Math class that you failed. Now, there is another avenue to argue but believing 7% use of MAX is in the top is pretty idiotic right from the start. Could be interesting to see though.


Your getting a little hysterical here, 4k may not be amazing to you but to majority of the player base and even a certain proportion of players on the leader-boards it constitutes heavy use of a MAX.

You are just twisting things your way. If 4k kills is a heavy use of a class(and not playtime somehow), why aren't you complaining about my 8k kills with bolt action rifles? Why not do the same for the Lightning HEAT canon 4k kills as well?

Like you said, it's a matter of proportion. It is pretty retard to simply use kills amount from people that have a high number of kills in general. It's kind of normal they'll have a higher amount of kills with most weaponry than the general player base...

Your labeling of your jpg's "killidiotpage", "pagetimeidiot", again see first point, try to learn some common courtesy when discussing a point, the only person you make look bad when being rude is yourself.

NB: I may have many flaws, but being an idiot isn't one of them, I have a Masters in law and a Masters in business, I rarely meet lawyers that are more highly qualified than me.


What I name my files is irrelevant. Considering they're going to be deleted soon and they only concern me, I could have name them anything from simple temporarySS_1 or any fantasy name. I have no reason to follow common files naming rules. What matter is that it show what you missed on purpose. As for courtesy, you have no ground to ask for any.

For someone that is supposely intelligent or at least, not an idiot, you have yet to realise that in a discussion on the internet, what you are or do does not matter. Pretty basic Law on the Internet... See what I did there?

The thread isn't about the sum total of his kills; its about a situational advantage the NC MAX has over and above the other 2 factions that is utterly disproportionate. You and your friends are well aware of this and to all intents and purposes appear to be fighting tooth and nail to maintain that unfair advantage.

You really have a profound hatred for DVS don't you? I'm kind of curious as to why because your logic make absolutly no sense as I said earlier. Are you saying people should completly stop be using NC MAX for what it is clearly design for because it is op? If it is the case, did you said the same for people using the Magrider or the Prowler? How is your fight against tank mines(I'm using them as C4 btw)? For how long did you curse Air before you got those several AA buff (Check my ESF kills if you want to hate me even more)? Devs will never be able to balance everything perfectly. I may hate certain playstyle but so long as the "exploit" isn't a "game glitch", for the lack of proper terms, that wasn't intended from devs (unlike shotgun, Magrider or the Prowler AI skillz), it doesn't bothers me.

In the end, Chewy and I seem to be the only DVS posting in this thread and he isn't part of your "wall of shame." Since I haven't said a word on balance, that leave only Chewy that as far as I see, has remain fairly neutral. Amusingly, for you, that mean we are fighting "tooth and nail" on a fan site forum to convince the Devs that scatters are actually fine.

Just for fun. Want my opinion which was from Beta? You know, the one that wasn't calling MAX an abomination in a FPS game? Simple, remove shotgun from max and give a Gauss MG. Every single problem fix. Except the "PS1 flavor." Too bad Devs didn't like it back then.

[Chewy]

Do you ever see MAXes of any kind surviving outside though? TR and VS maxes run between buildings because being outside in a MAX means death. The major issue here is the amount of one-shot-kills that happen on the inside of any major base, any tower, any building in which a point is housed. The highest health infantry unit should not be able to one-hit-kill, and it MOST CERTAINLY should not be refiring as fast as a Hacksaw does. I'm ok with it being "automatic" but either the refire rate needs a nerf, or the ridiculous damage needs a nerf. Personally, I'd like NC MAX weapons to be reimagined, and MAX shotguns be poofed, but that's not likely to happen unfortunately.

I have seen TR and VS MAXes being used outside of buildings and they can kick as much, if not more, ass there as indoors. A supported MAX at any range can be a lethal tool if they have the range, and NC MAXes don't have that range.

The ONLY way a NC MAX can OHK (one hit kill) is with a non slug 0m-5m headshot. Even if a NC MAX can get 100% OHKs (impossible even at 0m), that is at max 14 kills per reload where near any TR or VS MAX can get up to 10 kills with stock dual weapons just by aiming for center mass at ranges up to 20m per reload. Is that fair to you?

Did you even watch the videos? A NC MAX has to reload after each and every firing or they wont have the ammo to take on the next target. More so with the ammo wasting Hacksaws. Send just 1 man into a door before a group and every NC MAX in that room is reloading, free kills or MASSIVE damage. Where as TR and VS MAXes have the ammo to eat up to 6 infantry before even having to THINK about a reload. Is that fair?

Shotguns have only 1 role. Shock weapons that liquify anything within 10 meters. In every single other situation they will loose and have to play smart even within their "home turf" thanks to heavy ammo limits. Guess what faction only has CQC options. For 2 factions to be able to use a tool in any situation but 1 faction has no other option but CQC. Is THAT fair?

[Empra]

I agree hacksaws are OP.

TBH I don't think the others are OP. The slugs seems to upgrade the range a little far but, unless you are camping, you have to be damn close to get that short TTK. I play scatmax whenever inside etc and having to be that close means you get taken down pretty quick by nades and c4 and rockets.

I don't think people should be so quick to show their rage for oneshots. Snipers, Rockets, Grenades. All one shot instagib in the right situation. Rockets do not take that much skill to instakill with either. NC max has those same TTKs but only indoors at like 5 metres.

Maybe it's because I'm using mattock/scatter but I rarely one shot anybody unless its in the face or point blanc. Usually takes atleast 2 shots from each arm, or one shot to the face if you are close enough.

Try being NC max and you will see they aren't as OP as people say. Except possibly the Hacksaw. The power for the high fire rate hacksaws shuold be nerfed imo. I would accept a nerf to the regular scatmaxes as long as they got the equivalent back in range. I can't imagine them being very useful otherwise.

As soon as you reload near enemy you are dead, you can't press forward very fast, don't try and go anywhere without an engy, really bad without extended mags for any sustained conflict. Eats ammo. Less soloable unless you camp, if you have spread out targets then you have to run away and funnel or you will die when you reload. Especially vs TR heavies.

TL DR I think hacksaws need nerfing, othe NC max stuff isn't as great as everyone makes out, I play plenty NC max and don't out perform other maxes except one on one at the right range.

The reason people are getting so butthurt I think is because they keep running into NC maxes inside biolabs and buildings and getting instagibbed. Same reason I hate proximity mines. They never show up either.

Hacksaws however are way too powerful for the fire rate but this is only based on my VR experience.

[Shamrock]

You really have a profound hatred for DVS don't you? I'm kind of curious as to why because your logic make absolutly no sense as I said earlier. Are you saying people should completly stop be using NC MAX for what it is clearly design for because it is op? If it is the case, did you said the same for people using the Magrider or the Prowler? How is your fight against tank mines(I'm using them as C4 btw)? For how long did you curse Air before you got those several AA buff (Check my ESF kills if you want to hate me even more)? Devs will never be able to balance everything perfectly. I may hate certain playstyle but so long as the "exploit" isn't a "game glitch", for the lack of proper terms, that wasn't intended from devs (unlike shotgun, Magrider or the Prowler AI skillz), it doesn't bothers me.

In the end, Chewy and I seem to be the only DVS posting in this thread and he isn't part of your "wall of shame." Since I haven't said a word on balance, that leave only Chewy that as far as I see, has remain fairly neutral. Amusingly, for you, that mean we are fighting "tooth and nail" on a fan site forum to convince the Devs that scatters are actually fine.

Just for fun. Want my opinion which was from Beta? You know, the one that wasn't calling MAX an abomination in a FPS game? Simple, remove shotgun from max and give a Gauss MG. Every single problem fix. Except the "PS1 flavor." Too bad Devs didn't like it back then.

Revanmug I don't hate DVS, or any one else in a computer game, or in real life for that matter, hate is a very strong word to bandy about.

Chewy comes across as a mature kind of guy that is trying to put together a reasoned argument. I may not agree with him but he makes his points concisely and he stays civil. By contrast Revanmug you seem to take just about everything personally and resort to ad hominem, though I see the occasional glimpse of reasoned argument.

Your right nobody is obligated to be courteous; but don't expect me or anyone else to take your opinions seriously if your rude and discourteous.

I like most people on this forum dislike any form of unfair advantage in the game, we know its not perfect and probably never will be, but hey that's what discussion about balance is all about. As for the Magrider or Prowler I didn't make a single post or thread attempting to argue that they should not be nerfed, I use both.

[typhaon]

I agree hacksaws are OP.

TBH I don't think the others are OP....

If Hacksaws are OP, what adjustment would you make so that they aren't immediately a much weaker option than Dual Mercy?

[camycamera]

when every you see a hacksaw max, yell "HERE COME THE HAX!" :lol:

[Chewy]

If Hacksaws are OP, what adjustment would you make so that they aren't immediately a much weaker option than Dual Mercy?

What about removing the Hacksaw as we know it and turn it into a hacked up Gauss Saw slapped on a MAXes arm? Could even keep the name, a hacked up saw. Hacksaw! :lol: Thing is if that is done then the same would have to be done for the other factions. Remove one of their HMG weapons for a CQC version.

I can live with that. (maybe)

[Rumblepit]

thanks for taking the time to do all that work chewy. it must have taken quite a while . this is why i was asking for for the for the in game data. this debate could go on for years.
all i want to do is look at the numbers. if you guys are pulling half as many maxes as the tr and the vs and are getting 50% more kills then there is a problem. i suspect this would be the case and the debate would be over.
i know there are pros and cons to all AI maxes, but i dont think they are balanced.while testing done in a controlled environment can be good in some cases, most of the time its not really viable for combat situations.great work,and thank you.

why didnt you mention the problem with the dual cyc? you most have seen it.
the fact that outside 20ms 1 out of 5 shots always misses no matter how slow you fire or how good your aim is. outside 30ms 1 out of 3 shots always misses.

[Chewy]

thanks for taking the time to do all that work chewy. it must have taken quite a while . this is why i was asking for for the for the in game data. this debate could go on for years.
all i want to do is look at the numbers. if you guys are pulling half as many maxes as the tr and the vs and are getting 50% more kills then there is a problem. i suspect this would be the case and the debate would be over.
i know there are pros and cons to all AI maxes, but i dont think they are balanced.while testing done in a controlled environment can be good in some cases, most of the time its not really viable for combat situations.great work,and thank you.

why didnt you mention the problem with the dual cyc? you most have seen it.
the fact that outside 20ms 1 out of 5 shots always misses no matter how slow you fire or how good your aim is. outside 30ms 1 out of 3 shots always misses.

First of all, yeah that took a while to do. The NC and TR VR rooms weren't that bad (.5-2 hours for each take to get day time and uninterrupted runs) but I had to re-record the VS tests almost 4 full times thanks to assholes taking out my sundy and my targets after asking them not to. Don't even get me started on the upload times and Youtube processing hells.

As for the single shot misses with TR and VS MAXes. The point wasn't to get the number of shots for single fire kills at distances but number of hits for a kill as a base damage line. Burst/full auto fire numbers where suppose to account for misses and simulate in battle firing. With 50 rounds per mag in each weapon who the hell single shots at any range when that vastly ups kill times? Do it the TR way and cut the fucks in half with bullets!

I got into the TR role a little to deep with the Mercy MAX v MAX tests. I didn't want to stop firing at times. Maybe that's a reason TR and VS MAXes don't seem to last. They forget to take cover when seeing that they have ammo to shoot and can get another kill. NC MAXes are forced to run or get cover after every firing thanks to constant reloading, and that just so happens to be the same cover repair crews are in most times.

Hate to say it. But, maybe a little more thought is needed for TR and VS MAXes to stay in a fight. If they don't keep health in thought over everything else it can be easy to get lost in those weapons and end up getting killed before seeing the damage taken. To much fun using HMG weapons maybe ;)

[Neutral Calypso]

:mad:Just gimmee my damn flamethrower and we can settle this discussion.

[Falcon_br]

I just want my deploy back with 100% increase fire rate, so I can kill charging scatmax before they kill me. Even if they got shields.

[snafus]

:mad:Just gimmee my damn flamethrower and we can settle this discussion.

Unless the flame thrower can compete with the scatt max in damage I don't feel it will balance the playing field at all.

[Sledgecrushr]

Unless the flame thrower can compete with the scatt max in damage I don't feel it will balance the playing field at all.

I know what your saying. The NC max needs a weapon comparable with the mercy for the playing field to be truly even.

[snafus]

I know what your saying. The NC max needs a weapon comparable with the mercy for the playing field to be truly even.

Agreed.

[Chewy]

Agreed.

Not agreed.

If (and I do mean IF with seeing how long this debate has gone for without some kind range tweaking to MAXes) the NC should get a TR/VS like MAX weapon the Mercy isn't the right one to copy. Closer to the stock TR/VS MAX weapons would be needed like how the GR22 is a near copy of stock weapons but still not quite a full copy.

It's a pain in the ass not being able to fight off targets at range with a NC MAX. Just today my squad was attacking a tower and as soon as the air space was clear my MAX was near useless. Bursters are crap at hitting infantry and my Falcons where of no use because I was either to far or to close and the cross eyed paths missed infantry as well as all the time getting shot while reloading. I run Mattocks and can't use my MAX for AI roles outdoors.

If it was a TR or VS MAX doing that Id bet that it could have done a LOT more than what I was able to do. I WANT to use my MAX more, I love those things. But for as long as the NC MAXes are stuck with nothing but shotguns and shit slugs Im forced to run my support classes. Being a medic or engi is fine and all, I main those roles in every game I play, it's just that the NC has a tool (MAX) that isn't anywhere as useful as the the other factions versions.

Just wait for flamethrowers. TR and VS will then have both ranged and CQC MAX weapons while NC will still be CQC only. Not fair at all in my eyes, not one bit.

[Falcon_br]

Dude, in Waterson a drop of a full loaded galaxies with maxes is a NC standard tactic to attack towers.

[Sledgecrushr]

Dude, in Waterson a drop of a full loaded galaxies with maxes is a NC standard tactic to attack towers.

I can certainly agree with that tactic. Towers are very good cqc areas except for the garage whiich would be a death zone for nc max. And this is where the nc max has issues, we dont have a mid range ai weapon.

[Maidere]

I can certainly agree with that tactic. Towers are very good cqc areas except for the garage whiich would be a death zone for nc max. And this is where the nc max has issues, we dont have a mid range ai weapon.

You dont need to go the garage to capture the tower.

[Chewy]

You dont need to go the garage to capture the tower.

It's not often we can have a Gal drop at every single base. A lot of attacks are by land and that is always a med to long ranged fight (20m-70+m) with defenders shooting from the bases ground levels and upper floors. A NC MAX attacking from land is useless for any AI role, and decent/good for AA with to a point AV. Where as a TR or VS MAX can be of use for near any role at those ranges, those MAXes could even just walk and be used as a shield for a repairman while taking on infantry.

If a NC MAX doesn't get air dropped or use a portal into a base then it is a waste of res to pull it if not for AA duty. Iv seen TR/VS MAXes switch from AA to AI loadouts all the time to help with defending a sunderer. Why can't the NC?

[Falcon_br]

It's not often we can have a Gal drop at every single base. A lot of attacks are by land and that is always a med to long ranged fight (20m-70+m) with defenders shooting from the bases ground levels and upper floors. A NC MAX attacking from land is useless for any AI role, and decent/good for AA with to a point AV. Where as a TR or VS MAX can be of use for near any role at those ranges, those MAXes could even just walk and be used as a shield for a repairman while taking on infantry.

If a NC MAX doesn't get air dropped or use a portal into a base then it is a waste of res to pull it if not for AA duty. Iv seen TR/VS MAXes switch from AA to AI loadouts all the time to help with defending a sunderer. Why can't the NC?

Not ofter? your sign tells that you play on Waterson, in amerish the main transport are galaxies, at least on amerish.
We where holding the ascend, with like 24 anti air maxes, with medic and engineers, lots of others ground units, 10 galaxies appeared from the north, the 2 on the front where empty, all the other were not.
14 scat maxes killed us all, thank god there where 2 other points to defent, but the tower where the main forces where, was cleared in less the one minute.
Sometimes I think you are not in a good outfit in Waterson or you would be there to kill me.

[Verdanii]

Not sure if this has already been posted, but ran across this little video a couple days ago.

NC MAX Carnage: The little shotgun that could - YouTube

Pretty much sums up all the arguments for keeping the NC max the same, and blows them all out of the water.

[snafus]

It's not often we can have a Gal drop at every single base. A lot of attacks are by land and that is always a med to long ranged fight (20m-70+m) with defenders shooting from the bases ground levels and upper floors. A NC MAX attacking from land is useless for any AI role, and decent/good for AA with to a point AV. Where as a TR or VS MAX can be of use for near any role at those ranges, those MAXes could even just walk and be used as a shield for a repairman while taking on infantry.

If a NC MAX doesn't get air dropped or use a portal into a base then it is a waste of res to pull it if not for AA duty. Iv seen TR/VS MAXes switch from AA to AI loadouts all the time to help with defending a sunderer. Why can't the NC?

Oh everyone almost felt bad for you until you rush up the stairs and insta gib all the defenders. You continue to repeat that scat maxes are useless outside of bases, but that same point goes for all AI maxs. The issue here is NC scatt farmers are refusing to admit that their favorite toy is broken in favor of the NC. This game is going to start heading to more infantry favored environments which will mean a hell of a lot of CQC. And if the scatt max stays the same as it is now the already ridiculous advantage the NC have will get larger.

Edit:Oh and that video above verdanil is priceless. Right now all the scatt max fan boys are covering their eyes saying "nah ah didn't happen".

[Chewy]

Oh everyone almost felt bad for you until you rush up the stairs and insta gib all the defenders. You continue to repeat that scat maxes are useless outside of bases, but that same point goes for all AI maxs. The issue here is NC scatt farmers are refusing to admit that their favorite toy is broken in favor of the NC. This game is going to start heading to more infantry favored environments which will mean a hell of a lot of CQC. And if the scatt max stays the same as it is now the already ridiculous advantage the NC have will get larger.

Edit:Oh and that video above verdanil is priceless. Right now all the scatt max fan boys are covering their eyes saying "nah ah didn't happen".

You want to use that video as proof? Ok, lets use it as an example with a random TR and VS MAX video I found.

PlanetSide 2 - Meet the MAX - YouTube

Planetside 2: Anti-Infantry Max Suit Gameplay - YouTube

NC video thoughts-
Well even with extended mags that dual Hacksaw MAX STILL couldn't get more than 2-3 kills per reload. He was using so much ammo that he RAN OUT at the 50 second mark. With dual hacksaws you have 140 shells total, 70 per weapon. He got 6 kills from using 111 shells within that 50 ticks (he had 1 mag with each weapon and 5 spare between the to pools when getting repaired/rearmed). 111 SHOTGUN shells in a CQC fight for only 6 kills! That makes it 18.5 shells per kill! 1.3 FULL extended mags of Hacksaw ammo PER kill. How the hell is that OP to you?

After that re refilled total ammo to 113 @1:08. Then when he ran into a cluster of infantry and kill 3 more using another 27 shells. Another 16 shells for that LA on the roof @1:30. With the final kill using 4 more shells @1:36. Lets do the math for that MAXes life.

11 kills, 142 shells fired. That makes 12.9 shells per kill. OVER a full extended mag for each kill. I am just not seeing an OP class with these numbers when about every vehicle can get those kill numbers anywhere on the map within mere seconds.

TR video thoughts-
A little old I know, but should still be of use. Up to the 3:15 mark it is rather tame then gets good. That MAX was able to clear that cap point room with little help (up to 3 others with one repairing him it looks). Then @4:07 he cleared that room and held it ALONE. From 4:07 to 4:38 that man was able to get 11 kills ALONE against shielded HAs, medics, and engineers. Is that OP? Getting 11 kills (same as that NC MAX videos first part) within 30 seconds (it took 1:30 for the NC MAX to get 11 kills) while only using about HALF of a total ammo supply (NC MAX used MORE than all of his) seems rather fucking OP to me by using your standards and the video isn't even finished yet. That MAX was able to go on for another full minute before the video cuts out. We don't even know if he was killed ONCE in that entire bio-lab fight!

VS video thoughts-
A lot of cherry picked footage, but is shows about the same as the TR video with miss matched weapons.


Basically, what I am trying to say with this post is that if anything that NC video shows how weak the NC MAX is with the low ammo count and limited viable uses. ANY supported MAX WILL fuck the days of anyone who see it. What make the NC stand out is that we SUPPORT out MAXes because THEY CAN'T BE USED ANYWHERE BUT CQC. With the number of engineers in the game it is EASY for a NC MAX to run into one and get repairs if that MAX CAN'T leave their side. Once a NC MAX looses his pocked engi he is doomed to die FAST from not being able to fight back past 20m. Any stock TR or VS MAX can fight back at those ranges and BEYOND them, watch my tests on page 10 to see that yourself.

If the TR and VS would, you know, SUPPORT their MAXes then maybe people would see just how good they have it with those weapons. Shotguns SUCK for anyone that wants to NOT wait behind a damned door.

(sorry for the CAPs. This "debate" is just getting so very tiring when almost no one else bothers to back up what they claim. And yes, it is making me a bit pissy :evil: )

[Sledgecrushr]

Not sure if this has already been posted, but ran across this little video a couple days ago.

NC MAX Carnage: The little shotgun that could - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9fF0PNPWfU)

Pretty much sums up all the arguments for keeping the NC max the same, and blows them all out of the water.

I dont think a clipped together video of a couple of kill streaks is going to actually prove a damned thing. We have run the numbers dude. Yes the nc max can kill 1 infantryman at 30 meters with about 24 rounds fired at it. Most nc max dont have the upgraded clips. You start out with a total of 14 rounds before you spend certs to upgrade. I dont think this video proves anything.

[Rumblepit]

i really dont give a ratsass about video proof of anything..... I WANT TO SEE THE NUMBERS..... i know for a fact that NC maxes kill more maxes than TR and VS maxes..... i know for a fact that NC maxes kill more infantry than TR and VS maxes. please im begging anyone,,,, PROVE ME WRONG!!!!!!!! when we saw this same data on magriders and HE prowlers Higby said "it must be changed".

im calling it right now..... if the data ever gets out, people are going to be outraged, and higby will have to say once again"it must be changed"...

in all honesty the people that think the nc max is fine the way it is, either know they are completely full of shett, or they are so bias they dont care if the game is broken or not.

[Rumblepit]

You want to use that video as proof? Ok, lets use it as an example with a random TR and VS MAX video I found.

PlanetSide 2 - Meet the MAX - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAnZ0OMPh3s)

Planetside 2: Anti-Infantry Max Suit Gameplay - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgguoD4yHwM)

NC video thoughts-
Well even with extended mags that dual Hacksaw MAX STILL couldn't get more than 2-3 kills per reload. He was using so much ammo that he RAN OUT at the 50 second mark. With dual hacksaws you have 140 shells total, 70 per weapon. He got 6 kills from using 111 shells within that 50 ticks (he had 1 mag with each weapon and 5 spare between the to pools when getting repaired/rearmed). 111 SHOTGUN shells in a CQC fight for only 6 kills! That makes it 18.5 shells per kill! 1.3 FULL extended mags of Hacksaw ammo PER kill. How the hell is that OP to you?

After that re refilled total ammo to 113 @1:08. Then when he ran into a cluster of infantry and kill 3 more using another 27 shells. Another 16 shells for that LA on the roof @1:30. With the final kill using 4 more shells @1:36. Lets do the math for that MAXes life.

11 kills, 142 shells fired. That makes 12.9 shells per kill. OVER a full extended mag for each kill. I am just not seeing an OP class with these numbers when about every vehicle can get those kill numbers anywhere on the map within mere seconds.

TR video thoughts-
A little old I know, but should still be of use. Up to the 3:15 mark it is rather tame then gets good. That MAX was able to clear that cap point room with little help (up to 3 others with one repairing him it looks). Then @4:07 he cleared that room and held it ALONE. From 4:07 to 4:38 that man was able to get 11 kills ALONE against shielded HAs, medics, and engineers. Is that OP? Getting 11 kills (same as that NC MAX videos first part) within 30 seconds (it took 1:30 for the NC MAX to get 11 kills) while only using about HALF of a total ammo supply (NC MAX used MORE than all of his) seems rather fucking OP to me by using your standards and the video isn't even finished yet. That MAX was able to go on for another full minute before the video cuts out. We don't even know if he was killed ONCE in that entire bio-lab fight!

VS video thoughts-
A lot of cherry picked footage, but is shows about the same as the TR video with miss matched weapons.


Basically, what I am trying to say with this post is that if anything that NC video shows how weak the NC MAX is with the low ammo count and limited viable uses. ANY supported MAX WILL fuck the days of anyone who see it. What make the NC stand out is that we SUPPORT out MAXes because THEY CAN'T BE USED ANYWHERE BUT CQC. With the number of engineers in the game it is EASY for a NC MAX to run into one and get repairs if that MAX CAN'T leave their side. Once a NC MAX looses his pocked engi he is doomed to die FAST from not being able to fight back past 20m. Any stock TR or VS MAX can fight back at those ranges and BEYOND them, watch my tests on page 10 to see that yourself.

If the TR and VS would, you know, SUPPORT their MAXes then maybe people would see just how good they have it with those weapons. Shotguns SUCK for anyone that wants to NOT wait behind a damned door.

(sorry for the CAPs. This "debate" is just getting so very tiring when almost no one else bothers to back up what they claim. And yes, it is making me a bit pissy :evil: )



there is a big difference between the 3 videos that were posted. can you tell the difference? its like one of those puzzle games, "spot whats wrong with this picture" the footage of the nc max is pretty cut and dry.... its him and a few other people, most of the time its just him killing anything he sees by himself.

the footage of the TR and VS maxes in a bio lab camping a kill box,,, well how exactly would you compare the 3? at any give time during the tr and vs max videos you can be sure that there are tones of VS and TR firing into those kill boxes with those maxes..... you post a video and we see a tr max camping a air pad with 20 guys behind him shooting the targets, and then post the same kind of video of a vs max,,,,, and you want us to compare this to a nc max running around killing everything by himself????

you really derped on this one....fail.

[Falcon_br]

The truth is, that data will never see daylight.
They already sold too many maxes weapons and bundles to the NC.
If they change what they bought for something else, like a heavy gauss, 36% of the actual players of the game WILL be outrageous demanding money back!
Unless they give shotguns (or flamethrower) to everyone and ruin the game, they cannot admit that the game is unbalanced.
Nerfing an item is normal in MMORPGs, but nerfing a item in f2p (p2w) games, that costed real money, I don´t think it ever happened. It is more common to new overpowered replace the old unbalanced ones.

[Rumblepit]

The truth is, that data will never see daylight.
They already sold too many maxes weapons and bundles to the NC.
If they change what they bought for something else, like a heavy gauss, 36% of the actual players of the game WILL be outrageous demanding money back!
Unless they give shotguns (or flamethrower) to everyone and ruin the game, they cannot admit that the game is unbalanced.
Nerfing an item is normal in MMORPGs, but nerfing a item in f2p (p2w) games, that costed real money, I don´t think it ever happened. It is more common to new overpowered replace the old unbalanced ones.

ya know i dont think they want us to see it.... magrider nerf was fought for tooth and nail for months, and till this day people still say it was never op, and the nerf caused alot of VS players to quit. HE prowler was a different story, there were complaints and it was done in 2 weeks..... then we come to the nc max,,,,, people have been raging about this broken POS since day 1,,,,,i think if the data ever did make it out someone would either lose their job, or the nerf would drive away tones dedicated skilless nc max instgibers.

[Chewy]

there is a big difference between the 3 videos that were posted. can you tell the difference? its like one of those puzzle games, "spot whats wrong with this picture" the footage of the nc max is pretty cut and dry.... its him and a few other people, most of the time its just him killing anything he sees by himself.

the footage of the TR and VS maxes in a bio lab camping a kill box,,, well how exactly would compare the 3? at any give time during the tr and vs max videos you can be sure that there are tones of VS and TR firing into those kill boxes with those maxes..... you post a video and we see a tr max camping a air pad with 20 guys behind him shooting the targets, and then post the same kind of video of a vs max,,,,, and you want us to compare this to a nc max running around killing everything by himself????

you really derped on this one....fail.

Im sorry but what videos did you watch? That NC video did not have one part where the MAX wasn't supported. He either had an engi up his ass, other NC firing on his targets, or both. Watch it again. In every part but 1 (3:42-3:55) all of his targets where either shooting at something or getting shot. That MAX was kill stealing at best and doing it badly.

As for the TR video. I said that it was tame for the first 3 minutes. During that time the MAX was camping the landing pad doors and the portal room near there. After that is when he was able to clear ROOMS of VS infantry (and a VS MAX) with just 3 people I could see for the cap point and had ZERO help from 4:07-4:38 (that 11 kill streak I spoke of). You could even SEE HAs with their 2nd shields UP entering that room. Where they under fire? Very likely. Where they hurt? No. You can even see one of the HAs loose his personal shield after the active shield is gone, so that means at least one of the entering infantry was 100% healthy on top of all the medics healing everyone. Can ANY NC MAX hold a room that long after clearing that many people inside it all while 100% unsupported? I think not thanks to reloads alone.

The VS video, I half assed that one and just picked the first VS MAX video I found that looked good. Even with a half assed picking it still shows a VS MAX doing things a NC MAX can not by being able to clear rooms without reloading once while being able to reliably engage targets outside 10m.


I derp plenty and many times a day, but not this time from my point of view. If you can use what I gave to kick me in the balls, please feel free to do so. I welcome the pain if it makes this a better debate. At least then this would be more than a bitching contest. It gets rather annoying being the only one to look for the data and bothering to take the time to post details about it.

[Rumblepit]

Im sorry but what videos did you watch? That NC video did not have one part where the MAX wasn't supported. He either had an engi up his ass, other NC firing on his targets, or both. Watch it again. In every part but 1 (3:42-3:55) all of his targets where either shooting at something or getting shot. That MAX was kill stealing at best and doing it badly.

As for the TR video. I said that it was tame for the first 3 minutes. During that time the MAX was camping the landing pad doors and the portal room near there. After that is when he was able to clear ROOMS of VS infantry (and a VS MAX) with just 3 people I could see for the cap point and had ZERO help from 4:07-4:38 (that 11 kill streak I spoke of). You could even SEE HAs with their 2nd shields UP entering that room. Where they under fire? Very likely. Where they hurt? No. You can even see one of the HAs loose his personal shield after the active shield is gone, so that means at least one of the entering infantry was 100% healthy on top of all the medics healing everyone. Can ANY NC MAX hold a room that long after clearing that many people inside it all while 100% unsupported? I think not thanks to reloads alone.

The VS video, I half assed that one and just picked the first VS MAX video I found that looked good. Even with a half assed picking it still shows a VS MAX doing things a NC MAX can not by being able to clear rooms without reloading once while being able to reliably engage targets outside 10m.


I derp plenty and many times a day, but not this time from my point of view. If you can use what I gave to kick me in the balls, please feel free to do so. I welcome the pain if it makes this a better debate. At least then this would be more than a bitching contest. It gets rather annoying being the only one to look for the data and bothering to take the time to post details about it.

wtf are you on man????????? look at that nc video hes killing everything outside 10ms????helll hes killing everything outside 20ms and doing it faster than a TR and VS max.. but this dosnt mean anything like i said....you cant prove weather or not something is balanced by watching a video.....when the devs do a balance pass on content they dont sit down and watch footage of the item and balance from there. they look threw the numbers they get when people test these items....
I WANT TO SEE THIS DATA.... i want to know who drooped the ball on this.

if this game is so balanced, why did MLG tell SOE they had to have common pool weapons for tournaments?...

on a side note,,,, i cant wait to see a nc outfit get invited to a MLG turny because they been sat padding their outfit with maxes.do you know why? because they wont allow that nc max to be used :) then they will get rolled and i will lol for weeks on end.:rofl:

[Chewy]

wtf are you on man????????? look at that nc video hes killing everything outside 10ms????helll hes killing everything outside 20ms and doing it faster than a TR and VS max.. but this dosnt mean anything like i said....you cant prove weather or not something is balanced by watching a video.....when the devs do a balance pass on content they dont sit down and watch footage of the item and balance from there. they look threw the numbers they get when people test these items....
I WANT TO SEE THIS DATA.... i want to know who drooped the ball on this.

if this game is so balanced, why did MLG tell SOE they had to have common pool weapons for tournaments?...

on a side note,,,, i cant wait to see a nc outfit get invited to a MLG turny because they been sat padding their outfit with maxes.do you know why? because they wont allow that nc max to be used :) then they will get rolled and i will lol for weeks on end.:rofl:

(This is going to devolve fast if Im not careful)

A NC MAX could kill at 100m. It's not a possibility question, but a probability one. Raw data only shows so much, things like real gameplay are VITAL to getting the truth in any matter within a game. Why do you think OP and UP things as well as bug/glitches exist in the first place in any game? Devs have all the raw data they need, they built the damned games after all, it isn't until real gameplay is when these things are seen. Something on paper can read perfect and once put into a game EVERYTHING can turn to shit from that so called "perfect" data. It takes A LOT more than reading numbers to see anything. What I gave is but a TASTE of what the devs have and you know what? With as long lived as the NC MAX is there must be something to what I am saying or we would have been nerfed LONG ago.

I do not have the raw data you are begging for. Sorry about that, but I can't do better than what I gave for now. At least I am TRYING to support my claims. You and your side REFUSE to play ball. Pull your own data like I have and USE IT. Give us something to work with. Pull your own numbers, make or post videos that show what you claim, EXPLAIN why you are right in this debate. WE CAN NOT DO SHIT IF YOU REFUSE TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS!



Im done. Why the fuck am I doing this if those ASKING for the data refuse to use what data we have? Either backup your claims with your own facts/data or shut up and shove those opinions where they belong. Im getting sick of this shit. Going to play Minecraft.

[TheSaltySeagull]

The NC max is a dumb design and needs to be changed to be more on par with the other max units. A shotgun armed max is just stupid in ps2. It is a unit that will be ridiculously OP in short range and laughably UP at longer ranges which is like I said a dumb design.

It should have guass rifle styled armaments so its performance is more even at different ranges like the other max units and less lopsided like it is now. Its not a question of OP or UP its a fact that the NC max is a flat out broken design in terms of gameplay. Depending on the range you will either straight up destroy everything or be near useless and thats just bad design.

[BIGGByran]

I play NC and I want to see the NC Max stats. If they need a nerf, then so be it. I pretty much play Infantry exclusively. They judge balance by stats, let it be done with everything in the game. It is hard to balance things any other way in this game when there is so many variables. You guys need to tweet Higby requesting this info otherwise it will be ignored. I already tweeted him but 1 person isn't going to get the stats shown. Everyone needs to tweet him, spam tweet, that we demand Double AI Max K/D Ratio. If everyone just bitches on here and not say anything to the devs, then your just wasting your time.

I have already tweeted Higby requesting Double AI Max stats and told him that there is a heated debate on PSU. Everyone else needs to do this once a day I think so Higby will get the message, maybe even create a hash tag?

#MaxStats

If everyone wants to, lets all make the request to Higby with hash tag #MaxStats maybe if we can get a large enough people to make this request, he will display it for us. I will do this:

@mhigby We request the stats of 2xAI Weapon Max K/D Ratio Vs. Infantry and other 2xAI Weapon Max. #maxstats

as a matter of fact, as I was writing this, I tweeted the exact note above @mhigby. If everyone else can, it would help us get the stats of these max.

[snafus]

I play NC and I want to see the NC Max stats. If they need a nerf, then so be it. I pretty much play Infantry exclusively. They judge balance by stats, let it be done with everything in the game. It is hard to balance things any other way in this game when there is so many variables. You guys need to tweet Higby requesting this info otherwise it will be ignored. I already tweeted him but 1 person isn't going to get the stats shown. Everyone needs to tweet him, spam tweet, that we demand Double AI Max K/D Ratio. If everyone just bitches on here and not say anything to the devs, then your just wasting your time.

I have already tweeted Higby requesting Double AI Max stats and told him that there is a heated debate on PSU. Everyone else needs to do this once a day I think so Higby will get the message, maybe even create a hash tag?

#MaxStats

If everyone wants to, lets all make the request to Higby with hash tag #MaxStats maybe if we can get a large enough people to make this request, he will display it for us. I will do this:

@mhigby We request the stats of 2xAI Weapon Max K/D Ratio Vs. Infantry and other 2xAI Weapon Max. #maxstats

as a matter of fact, as I was writing this, I tweeted the exact note above @mhigby. If everyone else can, it would help us get the stats of these max.

Guess I have to go make a twitter account now.

[BIGGByran]

Guess I have to go make a twitter account now.

If it gets the devs to release the data, wouldn't it be worth it?

We need to have a group of people doing this and not just me. 1 person isn't gonna be enough. I play NC and I'm trying to help the TR and VS by possible getting the nerf bat on our MAXs, but hey, if you guys don't want the data then I'm fine with it also, just stop complaining about it on the forums.

This is for anyone who hasn't done what I have asked (and done.)

Speak up with:

@mhigby We request the stats of 2xAI Weapon Max K/D Ratio Vs. Infantry and other 2xAI Weapon Max. #maxstats

or gtfo and stfu about our MAXs. (if your one of the people complaining, not that ones that aren't)

The reason for #maxstats is so that higby can do a search on that hash tag and find everyone's message with the hash tag #maxstats

I appreciate anyone who has done this, but so far, at the time of this post, I am the only one that has done this with the hash tag #maxstats.

[Chewy]

or gtfo and stfu about our MAXs. (if your one of the people complaining, not that ones that aren't)


Well that's a bit over the top. If someone wants to bitch about something they find that may be bad for a game then they have a right to do so. The reason I got so pissed off was due to no one backing up their claims and not them just bitching to bitch.

If there's something that can hurt a game then it needs to be brought to public so that it can be abused to its max and get fixed ASAP. Like how the Phoenix can OHK infantry while the other ESAV weapons can't. As an AI weapon it's rather good/great, yet is wasn't made to be an AI weapon at all. So the AI damage is getting tuned to better fall in line with its role.

To this day I still think that the NC MAX is UP next to TR/VS MAXes. Shotguns are random weapons with a high risk high reward playstyle. They will never be as good as a reliable HMG. Just today I saw TR MAXes keep an entire side of a towers defenders in cover from about 50m out. We couldn't return fire at all without loosing half health. That is something NO NC MAX team can do but any TR or VS MAX team can if supported. That is not right if you ask me.

[BIGGByran]

Well that's a bit over the top. If someone wants to bitch about something they find that may be bad for a game then they have a right to do so.

Your absolutely right about this, and I want to hear what people say and may feel I'm for or agaisn't it. Debates and discussions are great to help a game develop, but my issue is that so many people want this but aren't doing anything about it. If they bitch about it so much but do nothing to get results they want, then stfu and gtfo about the topic. We have the means to get the statistics but if not enough people get together and ask for it, the devs aren't gonna give it to us. I gave them the means, it is now the time for them to act. That's all I am saying.

I encourage getting this statistics out for us to see and make sure our MAX aren't OP (or UP in some cases). The way they nerfed the Mag may not be the best way to see if something is OP or UP but it is kinda the only way they can with so much variable in this game and I feel this is how they should determine if something is OP or UP INCLUDING OUR MAX, it is only fair.

Most people are complaning about Biolabs and how we are OP in it, but on the fights I been in biolabs with NC as the attacker, we could not push out of rooms to get to the points, or even push out of the landing pads. Biolabs are only places were the defenders have the advantage and I think everyone belives our MAX are OP because of Biolabs when we are defending, but in reality, biolabs are the only place were the defenders just have the upper hand. I guess it is because we can't land a sundy on the capture points to beable to reinforce the attack in a short amout of time, unlike the other major facilities where you can park the sundy RIGHT under the capture point(s).

[Neutral Calypso]

The solution is simple. Let the NC have their longer-range chainguns, and let the other maxes have shotguns. Problem solved.

And before anyone cries "Wah! Homogenizing the factions!" I really don't see why a faction that sees its weaponry getting outmatched by the enemy would want to keep using their old weaponry if they get a chance to get better, do you?

The Indians didn't whine about losing their distinctiveness the first time an Indian picked up a rifle and started riding a horse after all.

Did you think they won little bighorn with bows and arrows? :p

[Falcon_br]

To this day I still think that the NC MAX is UP next to TR/VS MAXes. Shotguns are random weapons with a high risk high reward playstyle. They will never be as good as a reliable HMG. Just today I saw TR MAXes keep an entire side of a towers defenders in cover from about 50m out. We couldn't return fire at all without loosing half health. That is something NO NC MAX team can do but any TR or VS MAX team can if supported. That is not right if you ask me.

Dude, I think you are playing another game, not planetside 2.
Since the introduction of the Phoenix, it is no longer viable to use maxes on open ground.
Today I was holding Esamir ammunitions, I was using an anti air maxes to shot down reavers, what happened? Phoenix rocket to the face, before I got repair, another one to the face.
Also, using the same tactic you said, while attacking jaeger crossing on open ground = Phoenix on the face.
I really want to resets my certs, because flak armor is a must have to any vs/tr maxes, small arms protection is no longer the principal source of damage.

[Chewy]

The solution is simple. Let the NC have their longer-range chainguns, and let the other maxes have shotguns. Problem solved.

And before anyone cries "Wah! Homogenizing the factions!" I really don't see why a faction that sees its weaponry getting outmatched by the enemy would want to keep using their old weaponry if they get a chance to get better, do you?

The Indians didn't whine about losing their distinctiveness the first time an Indian picked up a rifle and started riding a horse after all.

Did you think they won little bighorn with bows and arrows? :p

Id gladly buy dual HMGs if the NC got them, wouldn't wait for a sale or anything. That's how good I see HMGs. It's the same reason I got Mattocks instead of any other weapon, just to squeeze a little more range out of my MAX. If getting a ranged weapon meant giving TR and VS shotguns. Then so be it!

This is how I see the MAXes so far.
TR and VS keep the enemy out of defended areas or inside their cover. NC MAXes have to give up ground and either let the enemy inside their bases to be of use or risk charging head first to close the distance.

The myth of most fights happen in CQC is just about flat out wrong. How often have you guys held an AMP stations walls? What about taking root in a tower to stop an attack? Or just fought from one rock to the next and for every inch you can get your hands on? The only times a fight is in CQC is when that fight is about over and in the final push. The rest of the time is in the fields and courtyards to prevent that from happening at all costs.

Ranged battle is key to winning a war. That's why we have AA and lock-on/guided/fast as hell AV weapons. If you don't keep the enemy out then you risk being overrun very easy. And the fact is that TR and VS has that range with their MAXes, the NC just doesn't.

It's like working with the wrong tools, yeah they can get the job done but you wont do that job better then someone how has the right tools.

[MGP]

Id gladly buy dual HMGs if the NC got them, wouldn't wait for a sale or anything. That's how good I see HMGs.

You do realize what TR and VS AI weapons are weaker then LA Carbine in terms of DPS? Do you really want to get that?

[MGP]

@mhigby We request the stats of 2xAI Weapon Max K/D Ratio Vs. Infantry and other 2xAI Weapon Max. #maxstats

Just sent a tweet to mister "Everyone hates TR".

[Chewy]

You do realize what TR and VS AI weapons are weaker then LA Carbine in terms of DPS? Do you really want to get that?

If it means that our MAXes can be used at the ranges TR and VS MAXes have then Id make the trade right now if I could.

Raw DPS may be lower. But a lower ROF helps more than a higher ROF when you can live long enough to use it with the low TTK in PS2. More bullets hit and less ammo used. Get an engineer to back you up and you're set. Iv seen a supported TR MAX take on a squad and not die.

[MGP]

If it means that our MAXes can be used at the ranges TR and VS MAXes have then Id make the trade right now if I could.

You can already be just as good at ranges as TR/VS. Cert slug ammo and you'll be gibbing infantry and maxes up to 70 meters with ease.

Iv seen a supported TR MAX take on a squad and not die.
It must've been a very dumb squad, or a nice fairy tale you've made up.

[BIGGByran]

Just sent a tweet to mister "Everyone hates TR".

lol thanks. I saw the post on tweeter. Now if only we can get everyone else that ACTUALLY wants to see the stats to post the same thing. Hopefully they will see alot of people asking for it and Higby will post it.

[BIGGByran]

You can already be just as good at ranges as TR/VS. Cert slug ammo and you'll be gibbing infantry and maxes up to 70 meters with ease.


It must've been a very dumb squad, or a nice fairy tale you've made up.

Slug ammo is very unreliable at range.

I have personally seen, in a biolab (NC Defending), a squad of TR eng, medic, and Max defend the crap out of point B and the generator. Not single NC could get in that building to get the point or the gen back up. They never bothered to get the SCU, but we were losing the facility cause they only needed 1 point to get the base due to the amount of influence they had on it.

[Sledgecrushr]

You can already be just as good at ranges as TR/VS. Cert slug ammo and you'll be gibbing infantry and maxes up to 70 meters with ease.


Youre absolutely nuts. It takes an entire clip to kill 1 infantryman with a slug hacksaw max at 30m. This is the absolute killing range for the NC max against regular non max infantry, even with upgraded clips and slugs. An unmodified mercy will kill regular infantry out to 70 meters. I know these things because there are videos that show these weapons at work. I strongly suggest that you become familiar with the capacities of these different esMax units.

[Rumblepit]

Youre absolutely nuts. It takes an entire clip to kill 1 infantryman with a slug hacksaw max at 30m. This is the absolute killing range for the NC max against regular non max infantry, even with upgraded clips and slugs. An unmodified mercy will kill regular infantry out to 70 meters. I know these things because there are videos that show these weapons at work. I strongly suggest that you become familiar with the capacities of these different esMax units.



he speaks the truth,,,, it would take a whole clip to kill infantry at that range if they are using hacksaw with slugs. it would take a mercy 30 to 40 shots to kill infantry at this range ,and both would have the same ttk.....maddock with slugs is a different story, and might even have a faster ttk than the mercy at that range.

[Sledgecrushr]

he speaks the truth,,,, it would take a whole clip to kill infantry at that range if they are using hacksaw with slugs. it would take a mercy 30 to 40 shots to kill infantry at this range ,and both would have the same ttk.....maddock with slugs is a different story, and might even have a faster ttk than the mercy at that range.

You have to factor that the dual mercies would still have about 60 rounds of ammo left and can instantly switch to a new target. The NC max would be hamstrung reloading a fresh set of clips. Ttk is nowhere the same.

[BIGGByran]

snip

Join us in getting our MAX Nerfed or Buffed. Please tweet the message to Higby:

@mhigby We request the stats of 2xAI Weapon Max K/D Ratio Vs. Infantry and other 2xAI Weapon Max. #maxstats

[Assist]

everyone including 60% of the NC know the scat max isnt op, its broken.
people for months and months said the magrider was OP.... every VS and thier mother said we all needed to learn to play..... guess what the data released about the magrider by soe proved that we were all right,and then the mag was fixed.

all i ask is that a dev please look into this and get us some numbers.

i have a strange feeling that once the data is out there ,and all these NC that sound just like the VS and their magriders will stfu fast....

all i ask for is the devs to give us the same data on scat maxes like they did the magrider.

I'd just like to point out that SOE and the community village people were wrong about the Magrider nerf, as it is now back to pretty much exactly like it was pre-nerf.

We don't need to see the scat max stats, as they are fine. The biggest issue with the NC MAX is it's ability to use those Hacksaws at much longer than intended ranges.

The community is generally not right when it comes to balancing, I think SoE is finally starting to figure it out. It's nice that they put the Magrider back to what it was pre-nerf, but it'd be even nicer to see an acknowledgement beyond Higby's apology on twitter.

[Sledgecrushr]

We don't need to see the scat max stats, as they are fine. The biggest issue with the NC MAX is it's ability to use those Hacksaws at much longer than intended ranges.

Wow, step away from the bong. Dude you must be high saying the hacksaw max has good range. Its been demonstrated that max vs max @ 20 meters it takes a hacksaw max 53 rounds of ammo and count them THREE RELOADS to kill either a tr or vs max. Just calling you out on your utter nonsense bro.

[DeltaGun]

Wow, step away from the bong. Dude you must be high saying the hacksaw max has good range. Its been demonstrated that max vs max @ 20 meters it takes a hacksaw max 53 rounds of ammo and count them THREE RELOADS to kill either a tr or vs max. Just calling you out on your utter nonsense bro.

In MAX vs. MAX it loses out because it has to reload, true. Just hide behind a corner while reloading and all the sudden this is not an issue.

[BIGGByran]

In MAX vs. MAX it loses out because it has to reload, true. Just hide behind a corner while reloading and all the sudden this is not an issue.

The point of the Max Vs Max Video is to eliminate ALL VARIABLES. I caps that because it is the one thing that can throw off how effective any Max can be.

Ex. We pit a 2xHacksaw Max Vs. a VS/TR 2xAI Max agaisn't each other. One would assume the 2xHacksaw would win, but what is the players behind the hacksaws NEVER played a video game before and the VS/TR Max is the Best Max player for their faction, then the "OP" Hacksaws would lose 100% of the time. This player skill gap is a variable that changes the outcome of a match. If we eliminate the "Player Skill" and any other variable and just show the effectiveness of the Max and their weapons, then we can see how OP or UP their weapon really is. The Max Vs Max video clearly shows that our Max is Death up to 10m but we become fairy dust shooters pass that. So you can see that our effective range is 10m.

If you show us that, under a minimal variable situation, our Max Kills all Maxs at all ranges, then yes we are OP. That would show that our gun is OP.

Again, if you think we are OP up to 10m, then the other Maxs are OP 8m+, then we should nerf VS/TR effectiveness at 8m+, video clearly shows that.

Please everyone:

@mhigby We request the stats of 2xAI Weapon Max K/D Ratio Vs. Infantry and other 2xAI Weapon Max. #maxstats

:D

[Rumblepit]

I'd just like to point out that SOE and the community village people were wrong about the Magrider nerf, as it is now back to pretty much exactly like it was pre-nerf.

We don't need to see the scat max stats, as they are fine. The biggest issue with the NC MAX is it's ability to use those Hacksaws at much longer than intended ranges.

The community is generally not right when it comes to balancing, I think SoE is finally starting to figure it out. It's nice that they put the Magrider back to what it was pre-nerf, but it'd be even nicer to see an acknowledgement beyond Higby's apology on twitter.


we dont need to see the scat max stats??? were you around to see how the data changed after the mag nerf? all mbts were balanced except for the prowler which got nerfed too.

your obviously clueless or bias if you dont think those stats need to come to light.

And Higby, if you pop in here too see this thread know that im gonna shawshank redemption this issues on tweeter. your gonna get a tweet in regards to these stats every week until i get those numbers.:evil:

[Assist]

Wow, step away from the bong. Dude you must be high saying the hacksaw max has good range. Its been demonstrated that max vs max @ 20 meters it takes a hacksaw max 53 rounds of ammo and count them THREE RELOADS to kill either a tr or vs max. Just calling you out on your utter nonsense bro.

Why do you assume I care about Max vs. Max? It's not utter nonsense, unless you put it into a category where it is.
Are you then going to say that 1v1 the Vanguard and Prowler are balanced? Or the Magrider and Vanguard are balanced? Let's put the Magrider and the Vanguard up against each other 1v1 like those testing scenarios. Do you really think the Magrider has a chance in hell? Does that mean according to your logic that the Magrider should be buffed?
Seriously, stop compartmentalizing your balancing. No one gives two shits about MAX vs. MAX.

I got killed by a Hacksaw MAX just yesterday at 40m+ with only two shots. As I said before, the unintended range of the Hacksaw needs to be looked at. I also NEVER said it has good range, you really should read what is written rather than flipping out at your own fictitious interpretations.

[Assist]

we dont need to see the scat max stats??? were you around to see how the data changed after the mag nerf? all mbts were balanced except for the prowler which got nerfed too.

your obviously clueless or bias if you dont think those stats need to come to light.

And since that change, all the changes they made have been reverted.

The only reason the Magrider cannot get on top of Scarred Mesa anymore is because they adjusted the physics in the game for all vehicles(remember when the lightning couldn't go up the hill?)

I know what I'm talking about, I know what changed and I know what's been changed. The data revealed by Higby ended up nerfing the Magrider into being utterly useless, not into being balanced. Now it's back to where it was before the nerf and people are once again using it. The data, in the end, did nothing useful to the balance of the game since it was all reverted.

[Dragonskin]

I brought it up before, but last night the mercy bug struck one of our MAXs again. It makes the mercy/cycler so inaccurate that a infantry unit can kill the max within close range... talking less than 10m here. I watched it happen against VS heavy assault in a hallway last night. Something happens to the COF and it just goes nuts. Can't hit anything accurately at any range once it happens.

Also why is MAX vs MAX being discussed so much? It's infantry vs max that this thing started about. No other max is as deadly as a scattermax vs infantry and that extends well past CQC engagements.

[Rumblepit]

And since that change, all the changes they made have been reverted.

The only reason the Magrider cannot get on top of Scarred Mesa anymore is because they adjusted the physics in the game for all vehicles(remember when the lightning couldn't go up the hill?)

I know what I'm talking about, I know what changed and I know what's been changed. The data revealed by Higby ended up nerfing the Magrider into being utterly useless, not into being balanced. Now it's back to where it was before the nerf and people are once again using it. The data, in the end, did nothing useful to the balance of the game since it was all reverted.

lol really? cause i know for a fact that mags are not what they use to be. mbts are very balanced atm and this was do to the changes made in that patch. you are right though they did revert a few things from that patch and it need to be done because mags were not up to par. but you and i both know they only reverted % of the movement nerf. weapon damage and rof was never reverted. check the patch notes....

[DeltaGun]

The point of the Max Vs Max Video is to eliminate ALL VARIABLES. I caps that because it is the one thing that can throw off how effective any Max can be.

Artificially "removing" variables is not scientific. In fact, the test is flawed. It CHANGES the variables (movement variable -> no movement) so that the NC MAX must stand there and take the full magazine of the other MAXs while reloading without seeking cover. It will almost never happen like this in actual combat.

[DeltaGun]

lol really? cause i know for a fact that mags are not what they use to be. mbts are very balanced atm and this was do to the changes made in that patch. you are right though they did revert a few things from that patch and it need to be done because mags were not up to par. but you and i both know they only reverted % of the movement nerf. weapon damage and rof was never reverted. check the patch notes....

Magrider weapons were never altered (well the Saron lost 50 velocity). Where are you getting this stuff? How about you link said patch notes instead of telling us to find them, lol.

[Rumblepit]

Magrider weapons were never altered. Where are you getting this stuff? How about you link said patch notes instead of telling us to find them, lol. where? i read all the patch notes. dont you? i would hope so they effect game development,and effect you as a player. it was awhile back ,but im pretty sure it was the rof on the suron that got nerfed with that patch... or around the same time.... also i believe strafing was nered and never reverted .



found some notes....




Saron Laser Cannon
Projectile speed decreased slightly. (The Saron has no bullet drop, while equivalent cannons do.)
MBTs

Magrider
Saron HRB
Slowed Projectile down slightly. It retains no projectile drop.

Made adjustments to the Magrider so that combining strafe and forward velocity no longer provides an advantage to hill climbing..


Apu Says Thank You Come Again - YouTube


you can look it up yourself.... its public information :)

[DeltaGun]

where? i read all the patch notes. dont you? i would hope so they effect game development,and effect you as a player. it was awhile back ,but im pretty sure it was the rof on the suron that got nerfed with that patch... or around the same time.... also i believe strafing was nered and never reverted .



found some notes....




Saron Laser Cannon
Projectile speed decreased slightly. (The Saron has no bullet drop, while equivalent cannons do.)
MBTs

Magrider
Saron HRB
Slowed Projectile down slightly. It retains no projectile drop.


you can look it up yourself.... its public information :)

Rumble... nothing you quoted says they changed Mag weapon damage or RoF... moving on...

[Rumblepit]

Rumble... nothing you quoted says they changed Mag weapon damage or RoF... moving on...



lol guess you still didnt look up the patch notes and read them.....

i said" i THINK".......... it was" AWHILE ago",,,,but at least i read them and knew there were weapon changes made to the magrider.

but that dosnt matter..... those changes and that data balanced MBTs.... this is what i want with the maxes...lets stay on topic.

[Dragonskin]

Not sure about Rumblepit, but some people think that reduced velocity means reduced damage. That is why the whole soft point ammo is bad thing started.

Velocity only affects travel time to the target.

[Assist]

lol guess you still didnt look up the patch notes and read them.....

i said" i THINK".......... it was" AWHILE ago",,,,but at least i read them and knew there were weapon changes made to the magrider.

but that dosnt matter..... those changes and that data balanced MBTs.... this is what i want with the maxes...lets stay on topic.

That data did not balance MBT's. The data that was shown was specifically regarding the K/D of Magriders and Higby attributed that to the movement of the Magrider. (Even though he promised me the week before he wouldn't be nerfing the movement of the Magrider - Never Forget!)
Later they realized it wasn't so much the Magrider needed nerfed but that the other tanks needed their damage buffed. Which turned out to be true for the Vanguard, but a load of crap for the Prowler as it was once again nerfed back. Movement wasn't even part of the equation which is the thing this community, the reddit community, and the PS2 official forums all railed against for a month straight. They were straight up wrong and it's a shame that those same people don't admit to it now.

Comparing the NC MAX vs other MAX at range is like comparing the Magrider to other MBT's if neither can move. You're taking away the biggest advantage of the MAX and therefore drawing absolutely no valuable data. Anyone who thinks the NC MAX should be comparable to the others at range is ridiculous, that's like claiming shotgun users should be as good at 50m+ as they are at 10m. That's not the point of balance at all, in fact anyone in this thread crying for changes like that should be shamed from the PS2 community because they're asking for a 1-faction game
.
The NC MAX is perfectly fine as is, regardless of what the data numbers show. Just like the Magrider was fine as is, regardless of what the data was showing. If they want the NC MAX to be the close range specialist MAX that's fine, but they need to give the TR/VS MAX something that makes them unique as well. The VS/TR MAX are damn near identical right now, outside the AV weapons, which makes them bland and boring. I personally don't play one because I'm more of a target and I can't kill infantry nearly as fast as my LA/HA. They need to give me a reason to play the MAX, because as it is right now I can kill infantry, vehicles, and other MAX's faster as my LA than as a VS MAX. The same cannot be said for the NC, the Scat/Hax MAX can kill infantry as quick if not faster than the LA in all CQC engagements which happen to be 90% of the infantry fights in PS2(hence the current crying for shotgun nerfs).

[Chewy]

That data did not balance MBT's. The data that was shown was specifically regarding the K/D of Magriders and Higby attributed that to the movement of the Magrider. (Even though he promised me the week before he wouldn't be nerfing the movement of the Magrider - Never Forget!)
Later they realized it wasn't so much the Magrider needed nerfed but that the other tanks needed their damage buffed. Which turned out to be true for the Vanguard, but a load of crap for the Prowler as it was once again nerfed back. Movement wasn't even part of the equation which is the thing this community, the reddit community, and the PS2 official forums all railed against for a month straight. They were straight up wrong and it's a shame that those same people don't admit to it now.

Comparing the NC MAX vs other MAX at range is like comparing the Magrider to other MBT's if neither can move. You're taking away the biggest advantage of the MAX and therefore drawing absolutely no valuable data. Anyone who thinks the NC MAX should be comparable to the others at range is ridiculous, that's like claiming shotgun users should be as good at 50m+ as they are at 10m. That's not the point of balance at all, in fact anyone in this thread crying for changes like that should be shamed from the PS2 community because they're asking for a 1-faction game
.
The NC MAX is perfectly fine as is, regardless of what the data numbers show. Just like the Magrider was fine as is, regardless of what the data was showing. If they want the NC MAX to be the close range specialist MAX that's fine, but they need to give the TR/VS MAX something that makes them unique as well. The VS/TR MAX are damn near identical right now, outside the AV weapons, which makes them bland and boring. I personally don't play one because I'm more of a target and I can't kill infantry nearly as fast as my LA/HA. They need to give me a reason to play the MAX, because as it is right now I can kill infantry, vehicles, and other MAX's faster as my LA than as a VS MAX. The same cannot be said for the NC, the Scat/Hax MAX can kill infantry as quick if not faster than the LA in all CQC engagements which happen to be 90% of the infantry fights in PS2(hence the current crying for shotgun nerfs).

Why are you derailing this thread? The unique qualities of MBTs make them just about useless in this debate yet you can't shut up about them. MAXes are just about carbon copies of each other. The only things to set them apart are the weapons they are limited to, and that is the problem here. WEAPONS, not the MAXes themselves. With the the MBTs faction unique armor values, front/side/back/top plating, movement speeds, movement types, and weapon styles they CAN'T be compared to this debate.

HMGs are reliable to use EVERYWHERE, shotguns have only CQC. Getting killed at 40m by a shotgun is pure random chance, it's random to kill infantry at 20m under perfect conditions add in variables and it becomes random at 10m-15m.

If anything Assist you should be trying to help out your factions MAX in some way before bitching about MBTs in threads that have nothing to do with them. Iv posted my 3 videos on this site (on page 10 on this thread) and in the main PS2 forums and something very clear stands out about them. TR and NC videos have 70 views, the VS video has 30. Either there are no complaints about VS MAXes or NO ONE CARES ABOUT THEM. Not even the VS! Instead of mourning over the Mag nerf you guys should be asking why so little people care about your MAXes.

If they are the copies of the TR MAX as you claim they are then they should be JUST as good as them if not better with their higher base damage, shorter reload time, and faster ROF. ( https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Amnj8jnZLDIOdEx6azNNdVozRmxLVkI2WnZmS2NqV 1E&output=html )

[BIGGByran]

Artificially "removing" variables is not scientific. In fact, the test is flawed. It CHANGES the variables (movement variable -> no movement) so that the NC MAX must stand there and take the full magazine of the other MAXs while reloading without seeking cover. It will almost never happen like this in actual combat.

This is the test how deadly/effective the weapons are. The test proves that the NC Max is deadly up to 5m (and some cases up to 10m) but useless pass that. MAX are copies of each other, armor, HP, movement, etc etc, except for weapons. The only thing that makes 1 max different from another is the weapon. (and the look but that doesn't affect game play.)

If you believe that "actual" combat is the real test, then I have died plenty of times to TR/VS Max. They need a major nerf! Mind you that I was at half or less HP than them, but doesn't change the fact that they have killed me in actual combat.

Actual Combat has to much variables to change the effectiveness of the Maxs. A max with support will dominate any max without support. Does that mean the max with support is op? No.

A Max with 34 kills to his 1 death may look OP, but what if it was because he kepted going back and getting repairs, playing smart, and had good support. Does that mean he is OP? No

How about a Max that never got any kills and died every time he spawned. Does that mean he needs a buff? No and the variable there could be the player is new, the fought against smarter players, or just had bad luck.

Even if you put 1 vs 1 max with no interference from other players, the player skill is still the variable. 1 Max player maybe better than the other and maybe at different times of the day they are better. I find it strange that in the mornings when I wake up, I suck. I die 5-15 times before I get a kill, but in the afternoons and evenings, it is reverse. kill 5-15 people before I die. Player skill varies through out the day and it varies on his mood.

[Assist]

Why are you derailing this thread? The unique qualities of MBTs make them just about useless in this debate yet you can't shut up about them. MAXes are just about carbon copies of each other. The only things to set them apart are the weapons they are limited to, and that is the problem here. WEAPONS, not the MAXes themselves. With the the MBTs faction unique armor values, front/side/back/top plating, movement speeds, movement types, and weapon styles they CAN'T be compared to this debate.

HMGs are reliable to use EVERYWHERE, shotguns have only CQC. Getting killed at 40m by a shotgun is pure random chance, it's random to kill infantry at 20m under perfect conditions add in variables and it becomes random at 10m-15m.

If anything Assist you should be trying to help out your factions MAX in some way before bitching about MBTs in threads that have nothing to do with them. Iv posted my 3 videos on this site (on page 10 on this thread) and in the main PS2 forums and something very clear stands out about them. TR and NC videos have 70 views, the VS video has 30. Either there are no complaints about VS MAXes or NO ONE CARES ABOUT THEM. Not even the VS! Instead of mourning over the Mag nerf you guys should be asking why so little people care about your MAXes.

If they are the copies of the TR MAX as you claim they are then they should be JUST as good as them if not better with their higher base damage, shorter reload time, and faster ROF. ( https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Amnj8jnZLDIOdEx6azNNdVozRmxLVkI2WnZmS2NqV 1E&output=html )

I suggest you read my post.

It answers what MBT's and MAX's have to do with each other. It answers that the data that this thread is about won't bring any sort of balance to the game. It answers why no one cares about the VS MAX. It also answers why no one is viewing your videos. No one cares about the VS MAX because it does nothing that cannot be done as efficiently or more efficiently than the LA(besides bursters). Your views on the videos could also be related to the fact that VS numbers are dwindling day by day on every server, why care about VS when you can just go roll NC/TR ?
I personally don't care about the VS MAX because I won't use it. They won't make it as good as the NC MAX in CQC and that's the only place I'd have interest in using a 'meat shield', which is what the MAX unit is supposed to be.

Sorry if you believe otherwise, but I was on topic the entire time and used analogies from previous events in PS2 to compare the similarities. I never bitched about MBT's in the post either. Also what is your base for your argument for MAX's all being the same? Last I checked they wanted to make the MAX's differentiated by faction, considering they're giving each MAX their own unique ability and all of their weapons are supposed to be unique to the faction. Oh, and they cost resources, very similar to how vehicles have costs, wonder if that fits under any analogies I used?

Read more, it'll help with understanding.

[Neutral Calypso]

The bitching will (mostly) end when NC maxes have HMGs and all the other maxes have shotties.

In addition to the weapons they already have access to, of course.

[DeltaGun]

Fun MAX Facts:

1x Orion: 1787.5 DPS
2x Quasar: 1875.96 DPS

1x Piston: 4290 DPS
2x Hacksaw: 8580 DPS

[Chewy]

Fun MAX Facts:

1x Orion: 1787.5 DPS
2x Quasar: 1875.96 DPS

1x Piston: 4290 DPS
2x Hacksaw: 8580 DPS

Questions.

1- Why use the stock VS MAX weapon against the non stock NC MAX weapon? Shouldn't you have used the Cosmos or Scattercannon to be fair instead of using a stock v non stock weapons?

2- How long can that DPS be sustained?

3- At what range is that DPS good for?

4- What are the odds of that DPS landing on target for it's given range?

5- Did you account for any variables other than raw numbers?


Having raw DPS doesn't mean a thing if there are facts that keep the raw DPS from being used. Things such as pellet spread, COF, ammo count, and recoil plus more that Im not going to bother thinking of at the moment. Then there's the player that has to be accounted for and what he/she is capable of with those weapons, but Im not going to go into player skill as that is near impossible to account for.

It's great that someone is finally starting to give their data, but it needs to be data that can be of use. Give all you can or it isn't going to help either way.

[Sledgecrushr]

Damned skippy

[Saintlycow]

It blows my mind that this thread has reached 15 pages, and numerous others on the official forums have come and gone. It's quite a simple fix from SOE

In my opinion, the fix is very simple. Reduce "Light weapon" damage to all maxes. All max AI weapons are "light weapons". Max AA and Max AT are exempt from this status, and still deal the same damage.

This will fix the problem, and create more diversity for the max class, As currently AV maxes are really quite rare. In this scenario. The the common AI max is good at killing infantry, but cannot penetrate the tough exo-skelleton of a max suit. The dual burster is good against aircraft, and can damage both infantry and other maxes. AV maxes hunt other maxes, and attack vehicles.

The usual complaint from VS and TR is that the Scat max tears them to shreds at CQC, at odds far greater than should be possible. The usual NC rebuttle is that they suck at range, and that at any distance they cannot damage opposing inf and Maxes.

This solution appeases both of these groups. VS and TR maxes can survive in Biolabs and control points longer, while NC maxes aren't doomed if they need to hoof it. All maxes get more survivability against infantry, while their new weakness to compensate is the AV max.

In theory we get a better "Rock paper scissors" where AI maxes dominate regular troops, get killed by AV maxes, which are unable to defend themselves against regular infantry.


Thoughts or comments ?

[Sledgecrushr]

It blows my mind that this thread has reached 15 pages, and numerous others on the official forums have come and gone. It's quite a simple fix from SOE

In my opinion, the fix is very simple. Reduce "Light weapon" damage to all maxes. All max AI weapons are "light weapons". Max AA and Max AT are exempt from this status, and still deal the same damage.

This will fix the problem, and create more diversity for the max class, As currently AV maxes are really quite rare. In this scenario. The the common AI max is good at killing infantry, but cannot penetrate the tough exo-skelleton of a max suit. The dual burster is good against aircraft, and can damage both infantry and other maxes. AV maxes hunt other maxes, and attack vehicles.

The usual complaint from VS and TR is that the Scat max tears them to shreds at CQC, at odds far greater than should be possible. The usual NC rebuttle is that they suck at range, and that at any distance they cannot damage opposing inf and Maxes.

This solution appeases both of these groups. VS and TR maxes can survive in Biolabs and control points longer, while NC maxes aren't doomed if they need to hoof it. All maxes get more survivability against infantry, while their new weakness to compensate is the AV max.

In theory we get a better "Rock paper scissors" where AI maxes dominate regular troops, get killed by AV maxes, which are unable to defend themselves against regular infantry.


Thoughts or comments ?

Im on board with this. I really think they should go further even and make different weapons work better against different armor types. This would create a little meta to the game if you will.

[Saintlycow]

Im on board with this. I really think they should go further even and make different weapons work better against different armor types. This would create a little meta to the game if you will.

It definitively needs work, but i'll leave that up to people who actually know what they're talking about. I do think there's some value in my Ideas. I don't play max much (under 1 hour of max time), but I've encountered them enough to get a semblance of understanding.

Really, the inspiration comes from the HE vs AP vs Infantry rockets, where HE destroys inf, which is great against AP tanks, which are great against HE tanks.

Plus the fact Maxes are getting worked on soon.

[DeltaGun]

Questions.

1- Why use the stock VS MAX weapon against the non stock NC MAX weapon? Shouldn't you have used the Cosmos or Scattercannon to be fair instead of using a stock v non stock weapons?


I picked any shotgun because there are no stock shotguns.

1x Sweeper: 3575 DPS
2x Scattercannon: 7150 DPS

The point is not the effectiveness of shotguns, the point is that the MAX has TWO FULL infantry weapons while the TR/VS MAX weapons have only slightly higher DPS than one LMG. (2x DPS vs. 1.05x DPS)

One may note that while dual Quasar has 40x less accuracy than the Orion does (ADS) (.05 ADS CoF vs 2.0 Hip CoF), the Scattercannon has only 3x less accuracy than its cousin the Sweeper in ADS (.5 ADS CoF vs 1.5 Hip CoF). Based on this, you may say that dual Quasar is much worse than just using an Orion.

That's the fatal flaw in the design of the MAX weapons.

[Chewy]

I picked any shotgun because there are no stock shotguns.

1x Sweeper: 3575 DPS
2x Scattercannon: 7150 DPS

The point is not the effectiveness of shotguns, the point is that the MAX has TWO FULL infantry weapons while the TR/VS MAX weapons have only slightly higher DPS than one LMG. (2x DPS vs. 1.05x DPS)

One may note that while dual Quasar has 30x less accuracy than the Orion does (ADS) (.05 ADS CoF vs 1.5 Hip CoF), the Scattercannon has only 3x less accuracy than its cousin the Sweeper in ADS (.5 ADS CoF vs 1.5 Hip CoF). Based on this, you may say that dual Quasar is much worse than just using an Orion.

That's the fatal flaw in the design of the MAX weapons.

The Infantry shotgun v MAX shotgun part was fine, but I didn't ask about stock shotguns. I asked why you compared a stock VS MAX weapon DPS to a non stock NC MAX weapon DPS. Just by that an argument can be toss out as rubbish on bias. Either use both stock or pick the seemingly most used non stock weapons for MAXes. You gotta be fair at least.

(where Im pulling stats)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AuOojvNLMApVdEtIU1NKenEzNzZOSWNaanFqSUVxLW c&type=view&gid=12&f=true&sortcolid=-1&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250

Also your accuracy data is using the wrong parts. You can't compare ADS stats to hip-fire when one weapon is missing ADS. Use hip-fire for both and that makes the Quasar with the smallest COF in standing moving and a tie for sprinting.

The hip COF for those weapons are (Quasar left, Orion right)
standing 2, 2.5
moving 2.5, 3
sprinting 7, 7
(ducking removes .5 for standing and moving on both weapons)

Then you look at damage. QU 167 max (no min listed), OR 143 @10m - 112 @115m

Now rate of fire. QU 337, OR 750

Then recoil. QU .2 up, OR .4 up and .2 to left and right.

Raw DPS should go to the Orion thanks to the ROF alone. BUT take in a MAXes HP, resistances, better hip COF, higher damage, lower single recoil, and lower ROF it becomes clear that the MAX with a single Quasar is better as a unit. Add in a 2nd Quasar and it becomes 2 times of what it was in power. A MAX can take more hits, land more shots, and kick more ass longer with higher ammo supplies from rages up to 50m before the randomness starts taking hold.

Im not even getting into the math yet. Hell, I can't do the math if COF is involved with me not knowing what the hell to base the COF numbers off of with each added meter. That's why I made the videos on page 10, to see what it all means and get a hands on feel for the effects.

DPS doesn't mean jack shit past raw numbers DPS. It takes more than that to make a better class or weapon.

If you are able please answer the other questions I asked. I tried to get the DPS over 10 seconds for both Hacksaw and Quasar but I just don't know how to do the math now. And with it being 1:40AM I can't trust any math I do right now to be any good to start with. :confused:

[DeltaGun]

If you are able please answer the other questions I asked. I tried to get the DPS over 10 seconds for both Hacksaw and Quasar but I just don't know how to do the math now. And with it being 1:40AM I can't trust any math I do right now to be any good to start with. :confused:

You're still missing my point, Chewy. My point is that the 2x Scattercannons = 2x Sweeper. and 2x Quasar = 1.05x Orion in DPS.

Clearly this is a ridiculous oversight.

[CzuukWaterson]

all i ask for is the devs to give us the same data on scat maxes like they did the magrider.

We don't need to see the data. Wouldn't complain if you did though. It won't go the way this guy thinks.

[Chewy]

You're still missing my point, Chewy. My point is that the 2x Scattercannons = 2x Sweeper. and 2x Quasar = 1.05x Orion in DPS.

Clearly this is a ridiculous oversight.

And you're missing mine. Outside of 0m raw DPS has no meaning seeing how a LOT of shots fired are going to miss. An 8.5k shotgun DPS can turn to 500 at range and a 1.8k HMG DPS can be 1.5k or more at that same range (random guessing as I don't know the math for accounting COF missing a certain sized target at changing ranges). There is also reload times to account for. Have you done that at all? A shotgun can put out all of its damage at once, maybe even well under a second, but then needs to spend 3-4 seconds reloading before being able to fire again. LMGs and HMGs can take keep thier DPS running for that full second and more depending on the weapon.

It doesn't matter if the DPS of 2 weapons equals 1 if neither of those weapons can use raw DPS. If you take an Orion at 0m a fight will be won, in 1v1, depending on who sees who first, player skill, and lag. A HAs HP value is to small to use the Orions raw DPS. But a MAX can last long enough at 0m to get a chance to use its raw DPS if that players skill allows him/her to have pin point aim and handle recoil at 0m on a moving target.

May I ask you to post your math? Im starting to figure out how to get DPS numbers but could use a bit of help.

[Dragonskin]

May I ask you to post your math? Im starting to figure out how to get DPS numbers but could use a bit of help.

RPM/60=RPS (rounds per second)

RPS * Damage = DPS

I forgot to add to this. The reason that shotguns are so high DPS is that they fire 6-10 pellets each shot. 6 for the scattercannon. 10 pellets for the new pump shotguns. 6 * 143 = 858 damage per shot assuming all pellets hit for the scattercannon.

[DHoff]

Chewy, are you ignoring logic on purpose? A scattercannon is going to hit roughly the same amount of time as a shotgun. A Mercy/Cosmos isn't going to come remotely close to the same number of hits as a Carv/Orion. His point is that a NC MAX has double dps when compared to infantry, while VS/TR have less than a normal infantry when you factor in accuracy.

[Sledgecrushr]

Chewy, are you ignoring logic on purpose? A scattercannon is going to hit roughly the same amount of time as a shotgun. A Mercy/Cosmos isn't going to come remotely close to the same number of hits as a Carv/Orion. His point is that a NC MAX has double dps when compared to infantry, while VS/TR have less than a normal infantry when you factor in accuracy.

Scatter works with pellets. Now the pellets fly out and at really close range you hit with a lot of those pellets doing a lot of damage. The further away the target is the less pellets you are going to hit with. This is the reason for the scats rediculously quick fall off damage. The hacksaw is op @ 1-8meters because of pellet spread.

[Dragonskin]

Scatter works with pellets. Now the pellets fly out and at really close range you hit with a lot of those pellets doing a lot of damage. The further away the target is the less pellets you are going to hit with. This is the reason for the scats rediculously quick fall off damage. The hacksaw is op @ 1-8meters because of pellet spread.

And the fact that you are usually using 2. I don't think people are complaining about single scattercannon maxs. Dual is 12 pellets coming at you at 143 damage per pellet per trigger pull.... 1716 damage in 1 trigger pull. Which is why the NC MAX is the most deadly AI MAX in the game.

[Sledgecrushr]

And the fact that you are usually using 2. I don't think people are complaining about single scattercannon maxs. Dual is 12 pellets coming at you at 143 damage per trigger pull. Which is why the NC MAX is the most deadly AI MAX in the game.

The scat max is the most deadly max in the world up to 8 meters.

[Dragonskin]

The scat max is the most deadly max in the world up to 8 meters.

You really love that statement. Scatmax vs infantry is very deadly well past 8m.

[snafus]

The scat max is the most deadly max in the world up to 8 meters.

Been owned by one to many times well past 8 meters to even consider that comment factual.

[Sledgecrushr]

The 8 meters comment is a fact. Another fact is that all maxes are deadly to infantry. Its just the vs and tr that are consistent killers out to 50 meters.

[Dragonskin]

The 8 meters comment is a fact. Another fact is that all maxes are deadly to infantry. Its just the vs and tr that are consistent killers out to 50 meters.

Another fact Scatmax to be balanced with all other shotguns in GU06. So how does that feel now that we are talking about real facts?

[Sledgecrushr]

I hope they give us fifty round clips because Im tired of having to reload everytime I dissolve someone with my six shotguns.

[snafus]

The 8 meters comment is a fact. Another fact is that all maxes are deadly to infantry. Its just the vs and tr that are consistent killers out to 50 meters.

To many people have posted that Scatt maxs were useless outside of 8 meters which was absolutely false. And I still rarely ever see any AI max regardless of faction have outdoor engagements. Unless one of those maxs was shooting while on the move to the next building. I'm just glad they have finally decided to do something about scatt max. Will be nice having a more even playing field. Just wished they showed the stats that we have been fighting over for weeks to shed light on the glaring imbalance that was there.

[Rumblepit]

i guess somebody looked into the max data,,,,,and i fear we will never see it.
but the good news is they looked into the matted and its being resolved.
NC max nerf gu6


Harlem Shake (original army edition) - YouTube


yeaaaaaa..... im doin the harlem shake right now:rofl:

[Chewy]

With the recent tweets this may be something of a show. When GU6 comes Im certainly going to make another Hacksaw test video to see just what happens. Iv hunted for what I could but found no details as to what is going to happen. Just that a balance is going to be done for any and all shotguns.

Either the shotgun balances be a nerf or tweak it seems with the coming MAX update after GU6 all MAXes will get weapons better suited for various ranges. That little part got my eyes the most so far.

[MonsterBone]

If your standing face to face with an NC scat max you deserve to get your head blown off. The problem with the other factions maxs is that the players using them suck. Maybe if they were any good those maxs would be dangerous instead of just c4 targets.

[snafus]

If your standing face to face with an NC scat max you deserve to get your head blown off. The problem with the other factions maxs is that the players using them suck. Maybe if they were any good those maxs would be dangerous instead of just c4 targets.

Yes that is what it must be. Please teach us your ways oh mighty masters of the max skillz.:rolleyes:

[DHoff]

If your standing face to face with an NC scat max you deserve to get your head blown off. The problem with the other factions maxs is that the players using them suck. Maybe if they were any good those maxs would be dangerous instead of just c4 targets.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/31865558.jpg

[Chewy]

Im calling a vote.

What say you guys to making this thread a guessing game to the shotgun changes in GU6 and make a new one just for MAX weapon balances after GU6?

I can't really defend something that is going to change with any certainty and Im guessing it's the same for others. It's like getting goo to keep a form that is not its container. Besides, after so many pages it becomes hard to keep a discussion on topic when people only read the title or just a page or 2.

[snafus]

The Expendables (2010) HD Terry Crew AA-12 Shotgun Complete Montage. MANIMAL!!!!! - YouTube

Lets ask the poor south american military guys how they feel about scatt balance.:eek:

[Assist]

If your standing face to face with an NC scat max you deserve to get your head blown off. The problem with the other factions maxs is that the players using them suck. Maybe if they were any good those maxs would be dangerous instead of just c4 targets.

lol, best statement in this whole thread.

[Chewy]

The Expendables (2010) HD Terry Crew AA-12 Shotgun Complete Montage. MANIMAL!!!!! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k80j4_hwU6E)

Lets ask the poor south american military guys how they feel about scatt balance.:eek:

Ah the AA12 with a 20 shot drum mag. A thing of beauty that weapon is. It still has nothing on this gem though.

Battlefield Friends - USAS-12+Frags - YouTube

[Meecrob]

Most of what im about to say has probably been allready said, but ill give my 2 cents.
I will admit the scatter max is one of the biggest strengths the NC has, but it has a reload factor the other factions do not really have to deal with and as stated it's range is very limited. People scoffed at the 8 meter comment, but i think this is about the range were looking at for real effectiveness.

When it's all said and done, it is true that the NC max seems to be the only one that's really effective at it's job. Namely breaking chokepoint situations. But i would rather see a buff for the other 2 maxes than to see the only effective one nerfed to being just another slow infantry aswell.

Lastly, i would like to ask, how do people see this nerf? A damage reduction? I'm sorry but it does not make sence to me that when you, as an infantry, are being hit pointblank with a dual shotgun should not die.

[Chewy]

I have no idea how to balance shotguns to make them fair against other weapon types when they are a weapon made to specialize for one thing. It kinda goes against the entire reason to specialize into an area if it wont give you an edge for doing so.

You either end up with a god gun (USAS12 with frag and the M26Dart for BF3 before they got nerfed/fixed as an example) or something that isn't worth using at all. It is VERY rare for a shotgun to be balanced and for a while I thought that the semi-auto versions where damn near there. But then I found the weapon stat spreadsheet and seen something horrid.

EVERY SHOTGUN HAS THE SAME STATS!
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AuOojvNLMApVdEtIU1NKenEzNzZOSWNaanFqSUVxLW c&type=view&gid=12&f=true&colid0=17&filterstr0=SHOTGUN&sortcolid=-1&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250

The only things that differ is travel time, reload speed, ROF, bullet drop (VS only), and the pellet counts for pumps. I can't find a thing that makes one shotgun stand out form the next in that spreadsheet. Did noticed that it is missing pellet spread though, so that may be the key thing for a shotgun to stand out. But when I tested the Claw (NC pump) back when it cam out it looked like it had the same spread as my Mauler.


If the balancing isn't giving a good choke selection (tighter spread for less damage or wider spread for more damage) to the more so called "ranged shotguns" then this is going to fuck the shotgun user base by either making them OP or UP in all areas..

[Neutral Calypso]

I have no idea how to balance shotguns to make them fair against other weapon types when they are a weapon made to specialize for one thing. It kinda goes against the entire reason to specialize into an area if it wont give you an edge for doing so.

You either end up with a god gun (USAS12 with frag and the M26Dart for BF3 before they got nerfed/fixed as an example) or something that isn't worth using at all. It is VERY rare for a shotgun to be balanced and for a while I thought that the semi-auto versions where damn near there. But then I found the weapon stat spreadsheet and seen something horrid.

EVERY SHOTGUN HAS THE SAME STATS!
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AuOojvNLMApVdEtIU1NKenEzNzZOSWNaanFqSUVxLW c&type=view&gid=12&f=true&colid0=17&filterstr0=SHOTGUN&sortcolid=-1&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250

The only things that differ is travel time, reload speed, ROF, bullet drop (VS only), and the pellet counts for pumps. I can't find a thing that makes one shotgun stand out form the next in that spreadsheet. Did noticed that it is missing pellet spread though, so that may be the key thing for a shotgun to stand out. But when I tested the Claw (NC pump) back when it cam out it looked like it had the same spread as my Mauler.


If the balancing isn't giving a good choke selection (tighter spread for less damage or wider spread for more damage) to the more so called "ranged shotguns" then this is going to fuck the shotgun user base by either making them OP or UP in all areas..


The basic infantry shotguns are divided into Typical Semi-Automatic, High-Capacity Semi-Automatic, Automatic, and Pump-Action. Can't remember what balances the typical semi-auto against the high capacity semi-auto.

[snafus]

The basic infantry shotguns are divided into Typical Semi-Automatic, High-Capacity Semi-Automatic, Automatic, and Pump-Action. Can't remember what balances the typical semi-auto against the high capacity semi-auto.

If you are relating to real life then price would be the only balance ;)

[Neutral Calypso]

If you are relating to real life then price would be the only balance ;)

Oh but snafu! None of the weapons are supposed to be UPGRADES. They are all SIDEGRADES.

What do you think this is, pay to win? :p

...as far as I can tell the high-capacity shot-gun has a slower bullet-speed than all the other shotties. Guess that's the only balance for having a bigger mag.

[Chewy]

Oh but snafu! None of the weapons are supposed to be UPGRADES. They are all SIDEGRADES.

What do you think this is, pay to win? :p

...as far as I can tell the high-capacity shot-gun has a slower bullet-speed than all the other shotties. Guess that's the only balance for having a bigger mag.

There's only 3 total travel times with infantry shotguns 300, 275, 255. The 300/275 ones are mixed in with everything and the lone 255 is the Nova (a semi). I can't see a 55-25 change in travel time doing much for a CQC weapon like a shotgun.

ROF is 250 semi and 300 auto with pumps at 120. Not much here with shotguns needing to be timed anyway or risk missing to much. My Mauler can spam shells but I fire it closer to a pump speed to land more shots.

Total ammo is 48 shells in all shotguns but pump (30 total) with mag sizes being 5 (pump only), 6 (mixed), and 8 (semi only). This can be a good factor for choosing a shotgun. So I found 1 thing so far that gives a choice worth looking into.

Finally we have reload times. The same 4 reload times are also used for all factions but with semi having 2 of them. Pump is unlisted, Auto is 2.4s-3.8s, and the semis are 2.6s-4s and 1.925s-3.5s. This is the main reason why I got the Mauler. Less time reloading, a HUGE factor if you ask me in a shotgun.


Unless the pellet spread is a big change in the types I can't find much of a way to tell them apart. The only pellet spread data I could find on weapons is here ( https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AuOojvNLMApVdEtIU1NKenEzNzZOSWNaanFqSUVxLW c&type=view&gid=78&f=true&colid0=21&filterstr0=6&sortcolid=-1&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250 sorted to only show weapons with 6 pellets) on the I think 23rd segment. But I don't know what is what in that. There are no names, only ID numbers and there's a LOT more of them than there are shotguns (12 total shotguns, 28 ID numbers for 6 pellet things). I can't use that as I have no idea what it is telling me, can anyone use it?

[BIGGByran]

Fun MAX Facts:

1x Orion: 1787.5 DPS
2x Quasar: 1875.96 DPS

1x Piston: 4290 DPS
2x Hacksaw: 8580 DPS

Let me pull a Deltagun. He seem to look at the weapon "on paper" stats, instead of field test, which people have provided video evidence.

Fun MAX Facts:
*Note: Stock guns*

1x Quasar: 50(rounds) * 167(Damage per shot) = 8,350
2x Quasar: 8350 * 2(2x AI Weapon) = 16,700

1x Hacksaw: 7(rounds) * 6(pellets) * 143(Damage per pellet) = 6,006
2x Hacksaw: 6006 * 2(2x AI Weapon) = 12,012

Quasar needs a major nerf as it deals more damage than our OP Hacksaws.

Understand that this is what Deltagun is doing. Seeing the stats on paper and making it look like ours is OP, but when I did my own "on paper" stats, I can make it look like the Quasar is OP and what I have written is fact.

Deltagun is assuming the "best possible situation" and which I am also doing.

The only way to truelly test the OPness of anything is to actually do field test, which people already have. It shows that we dominate at 5m and our domination drops off pass that against MAX.

Now if people can do the same test, but instead of MAX vs MAX, do a MAX vs Infantry. THE SAME EXACT TEST. 5m No moving just let the MAX do its job and see how long it takes to kill an Infantry. Do the test at 5m, 10m, 15m, and 20m. This will show the killing effectiveness of the weapon WITHOUT VARIABLES (Variable being: Player skill, Luck, Stupidity, Getting Jumped, etc, etc). I think someone did a test like this already.

[Chewy]

Let me pull a Deltagun. He seem to look at the weapon "on paper" stats, instead of field test, which people have provided video evidence.

Fun MAX Facts:
*Note: Stock guns*

1x Quasar: 50(rounds) * 167(Damage per shot) = 8,350
2x Quasar: 8350 * 2(2x AI Weapon) = 16,700

1x Hacksaw: 7(rounds) * 6(pellets) * 143(Damage per pellet) = 6,006
2x Hacksaw: 6006 * 2(2x AI Weapon) = 12,012

Quasar needs a major nerf as it deals more damage than our OP Hacksaws.

Understand that this is what Deltagun is doing. Seeing the stats on paper and making it look like ours is OP, but when I did my own "on paper" stats, I can make it look like the Quasar is OP and what I have written is fact.

Deltagun is assuming the "best possible situation" and which I am also doing.

The only way to truelly test the OPness of anything is to actually do field test, which people already have. It shows that we dominate at 5m and our domination drops off pass that against MAX.

Now if people can do the same test, but instead of MAX vs MAX, do a MAX vs Infantry. THE SAME EXACT TEST. 5m No moving just let the MAX do its job and see how long it takes to kill an Infantry. Do the test at 5m, 10m, 15m, and 20m. This will show the killing effectiveness of the weapon WITHOUT VARIABLES (Variable being: Player skill, Luck, Stupidity, Getting Jumped, etc, etc). I think someone did a test like this already.

I have no idea who ;)







Page 10, and it was dual Cosmos not Quasar. When the shotgun balance hits I plan on trying another run at NC MAX weapon field tests. Then again for all 3 MAXes when the MAX update comes.

[Sledgecrushr]

Thank you Chewy. Im sure we are all interested in seeing what you find.