Are the gun stats wrong?

[Neutral Calypso]

I was looking at the gun stats earlier today, trying to decide what guns to get (if any) and I noticed...

The uppercut shotgun is listed as having the same damage as the other shotguns (and, amusingly, the fastest fire rate with that stat maxed out, setting that as faster than the nighthawk... obvious lies)

Do the gun stats have any bearing in reality, and if so what do they really mean?

SOE! MAKE THE GUN STATS MORE MEANINGFUL!

[Ghoest9]

use this not that

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AuOojvNLMApVdEtIU1NKenEzNzZOSWNaanFqSUVxLW c&f=true&noheader=true&gid=12

[Neutral Calypso]

Interesting...

Now make one for vehicle weapons. :D

[DirtyBird]

Needs MAX AV weapons added.

[DeltaGun]

Needs MAX AV weapons added.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Amnj8jnZLDIOdEx6azNNdVozRmxLVkI2WnZmS2NqV 1E&gid=1

[DirtyBird]

Thank you

[Neutral Calypso]

What? No burster? :P


Anyhoo, judging from that, here is my analysis of TR class weapons, going by effective damage-per-second only. (naturally some of these are going to demand some recoil compensators if that is all I am going by...)


Infiltrator: Sniper rifles do not abide by a "dps" concept effectively, so just going with the Rams .50 for max damage. If you don't need to snipe at the moment, the SMG-46 Armistice has highest dps 1866.7, compare to PDW-17 Hailstorm 1666.7; of course the Hailstorm has a larger mag size and more ammo carrying capacity, so your call.

Light Assault: I was surprised to find the LC2 Lynx faring better than the LC3 Jaguar, dps-wise. I suspect there is some little advantage the Jaguar has, such as lower recoil while moving, but I tend to hate shooting on the run so that might not be so important for my playstyle...
That said, the AS16 Nighthawk seems to have overall highest dps for an infantry weapon, albeit that assumes every single element of the burst hits the target...

Medic: I was again surprised to see the Cycler TRV coming out ahead of other weapons. Why is the NS-11 not so high up? Perhaps the Cycler has horrible recoil... will need to be tested.

Engineer: Since engineers have the same weapons selections as Light Assaults, LC2 Lynx or AS16 Nighthawk are best, assuming you can control the recoil.

Heavy Assault: Unsurprisingly, the MSW-R comes out on top here, assuming you don't feel inclined to carry a Nighthawk. :D I was slightly surprised that the TMG-50 didn't fare better on dps, but I suppose the slow fire rate is the counterbalance to such high damage per individual shot. And the TMG gets its chance to shine in being longer ranged than the MSW-R.
Unsurprisingly the Chaingun is total crap.

MAX: The Mercy wins, hands down. Other weapons are counterbalanced by having greater mag size and greater ammo carrying capacity, but seriously. Mercy is the only way to go. Of course, that is assuming you are attacking infantry and don't need to bring those &*@! liberators down.


That is my assessment, going by numbers alone. Though I am still hesitant to believe myself with respect to the Lynx and the TRV. Anyone who used those swear by 'em or do they have some hideous drawbacks of which I am unaware?

[OctavianAXFive]

Calypso:

The Lynx, MSW-R, and Cycler TRV are all very good guns but you must understand a few things about them in practical use.

These guns have very high rates of fire in their classes, meaning their recoil multipliers cause them to kick aggressively. In addition to this, you need to look at the pull indicators on the chart. Guns with = left and right pull are by default going to be less accurate at a range because a gun's accuracy is determined both by the bullet spread and the player's ability to control the recoil. With an equal chance of pulling left or right, gun recoil becomes impossible to predict which in turn leads to less accuracy.

The Lynx is a superb carbine, though it lacks the raw DPS of the VS super carbine, it is a very versatile weapon.

The Cycler TRV is a phenomenal gun at close to medium range but requires very short controlled bursts at the high end of medium to long range. The T1 is arguably more "versatile" but in typical infantry fights the TRV is the better choice.

Everything I stated about the TRV can be applied to the MSW-R.

What this all comes down to is playstyle and positioning. Some weapons might be better suited for certain situations. Additionally, the Lynx and TRV have some pretty painful reload times. Make sure you cover your reload on them. The blessing of the MSW-R is a short reload time complemented by a nifty 50 round clip. This boon comes at the expense of bullet spread however.

The TMG-50 is a bit more versatile than the MSW-R but is less forgiving in CQC. I prefer the MSW-R in most situations though if you ever get into one of those rare open field fights, the TMG-50 is an absolute beast.

Here are some weapon plots that are a bit outdated for you to examine the TR's finest.
http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/weapon-recoil-plots.74987/

You can also head over to LevelCap Gaming and check out his reviews on the weapons.

AR's
Planetside 2 Best Assault Rifles GR-22, H-V45, Cycler TRV (Planetsdide 2 Medic Gameplay/Commentary) - YouTube

LMGs
Planetside 2 Best LMGs For Each Faction (Planetside 2 Pulsar LSW, GD-22S, TMG-50) - YouTube

SMGs
Planetside 2 SMG Guide (Planetside 2 Gameplay/Review/Guide) - YouTube

Carbines
Carbine Guide GD-7F vs LC2 Lynx vs VX6-7 (Planetside 2 Gameplay/Commentary) - YouTube

[Neutral Calypso]

I am very familiar with the MSW-R. Heavy is probably my favorite class (most of the time), and the MSW-R came recommended to me by my outfit.

I recently started using the TMG-50 though, and I discovered it was quite good at longer ranges than the MSW-R, but had that little PROBLEM at closer ranges. I tend to find myself getting screwwed at closer ranges on a regular basis, but I was mainly experimenting with actually being able to hit something at medium-range.

For some reason, my outfit seems to believe the NS-11 is the second best medic gun in the game (the best one belonging to NC's arsenal). Do you have any idea why that might be?

And also, is there ANY advantage to using the default rocket launcher over the decimator? (besides faster projectile speed and the ability to carry one more rocket)

[Ghoest9]

The Jag gives up a little bit of DPS to the Lynx for ease of use.

The most notable is the vertical recoil. Some people that doesnt matter for. I think vertical recoil is really nice.

[OctavianAXFive]

For some reason, my outfit seems to believe the NS-11 is the second best medic gun in the game (the best one belonging to NC's arsenal). Do you have any idea why that might be?


Well the NS-11 seems like a fantastic ranged AR but I have never used it. It has predictable recoil, average damage, and a low rate of fire. The predictable pull of the recoil and the low RoF mean that the NS-11 is very easy to keep on target. However the TTK is very low as a result of not having any help from raw bullet damage. I suspect it gets praised for its ease of use rather than its raw killing potential.

The GR-22 NC AR is an excellent gun and I personally love it. It is comparable to the TRV though it has a slightly smaller clip and lower rate of fire. The predictable recoil pattern is nice too and I think that an argument can be made that the GR-22 is a contender for "best AR." Levelcap is a bit more critical of it than I am.

Lastly, the reason you are having trouble with close range kills with the TMG-50 has everything to do with its rate of fire. High Rate of fire guns suffer less from missed shots. If you miss a shot with the TMG-50, you are increasing its time to kill more than if you miss with the MSW-R because the next bullet from the MSW-R is coming out faster than the next bullet from the TMG-50. In addition, the flinch mechanics in the game favor high RoF weapons. This is the root of why people are complaining about NC weapons (which have traditionally lower rates of fire). Basically every time you are shot your screen and gun jostle around. The more bullets you are taking the more exaggerated this effect.

As I already stated, the draw back to faster weapons is that they recoil more aggressively and can be harder to control in sustained fire.

[OctavianAXFive]

SOE! MAKE THE GUN STATS MORE MEANINGFUL!

Sorry for double post.

This a pic from a tweet by Higby regarding the UI changes in the GU04. This is actually from a few weeks ago I believe.

Tomorrow morning you're going to get your wish buddy.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BCjHktTCEAE4hu8.jpg

[PredatorFour]

Or even better, wait a few hours to go into the VR training zone and test for yourself. I know i will be doing that:)

[Bocheezu]

Guns with = left and right pull are by default going to be less accurate at a range because a gun's accuracy is determined both by the bullet spread and the player's ability to control the recoil. With an equal chance of pulling left or right, gun recoil becomes impossible to predict which in turn leads to less accuracy.

I've heard a few people say this, but it doesn't make sense to me. Guns with slanted recoil have a side-to-side jitter (horizonal recoil) as well. Everybody praises slanted-recoil guns like they're so controllable, but I can't hit shit with them.

[OctavianAXFive]

I've heard a few people say this, but it doesn't make sense to me. Guns with slanted recoil have a side-to-side jitter (horizonal recoil) as well. Everybody praises slanted-recoil guns like they're so controllable, but I can't hit shit with them.


It's all about predicting the gun's movement with your mouse. In the new VR training area, go in and start shooting a wall from about 10meters away. Do not try and control the gun, simply click the fire button and do nothing to the mouse. Notice the pattern it makes on the wall.

Reload the gun and try firing at the wall again. This time try pulling the mouse at an angle counter to the recoil. Some guns may need shorter bursts for more control.

If the gun has a predictable slant, say up and to the right, you can pull your mouse down and left to keep the gun on target. If it does not have a predictable slant, you will never know ahead of time which direction to start pulling your mouse.

Here is an example from RivalXfactor:
Planetside 2 AF-14 Torrent how use and tutorial (NC Medic Unlock) - YouTube

[Bocheezu]

If the gun has a predictable slant, say up and to the right, you can pull your mouse down and left to keep the gun on target. If it does not have a predictable slant, you will never know ahead of time which direction to start pulling your mouse.

<- = -> recoil doesn't mean it's not predictable, it means it's straight up without any slant.

The video is of a beta weapon with absolutely gigantic horizontal recoil and I don't think there are any weapons like that anymore. Every weapon has a predictable recoil pattern.

For instance, here's a rundown of all the stats for VS ARs (this is from a cheat sheet I put together for myself). The "most predictable" gun here is the Corvus, with only 0.15 horizontal recoil, and the "least predictable" is the H-V45, which is high RoF and 0.3 horizontal recoil.

Pulsar VS1
Damage: 143 @ 10m, 112 @ 115m
RoF: 698
Reload: 1.75s/2.2s
clip/Total: 30/150
ADS/Hip Accuracy (Still/Move/Jump): 0.1/0.25/3, 2/2.5/5
CoF Bloom ADS/Hip: 0.05/0.1
Recoil Magnitude: 0.22
Recoil Angle Min/Max: 17/20
Horizontal Recoil: 0.2
Features: Fast reload, heavy right-leaning recoil

H-V45
Damage: 143 @ 10m, 112 @ 115m
RoF: 800
Reload: 2.55s/3.2s
clip/Total: 30/150
ADS/Hip Accuracy (Still/Move/Jump): 0.1/0.3/3, 1.5/2/5
CoF Bloom ADS/Hip: 0.05/0.1
Recoil Magnitude: 0.2
Recoil Angle Min/Max: 15/20
Horizontal Recoil: 0.3
Features: Adv. laser, SPA, high RoF, high hipfire accuracy, low vertical recoil, heavy right-leaning recoil, high horizontal recoil

CME
Damage: 143 @ 10m, 112 @ 115m
RoF: 652
Reload: 2.4s/3s
clip/Total: 30/150
ADS/Hip Accuracy (Still/Move/Jump): 0.1/0.25/3, 2/2.5/5
CoF Bloom ADS/Hip: 0.05/0.1
Recoil Magnitude: 0.2
Recoil Angle Min/Max: 15/20
Horizontal Recoil: 0.225
Features: Adv. forward grip, HVA, low vertical recoil, heavy right-leaning recoil

Equinox
Damage: 143 @ 10m, 112 @ 115m
RoF: 652
Reload: 1.8s/2.41s
clip/Total: 30/150
ADS/Hip Accuracy (Still/Move/Jump): 0.1/0.25/3, 2/2.5/5
CoF Bloom ADS/Hip: 0.05/0.1
Recoil Magnitude: 0.245
Recoil Angle Min/Max: 17/20
Horizontal Recoil: 0.2
Features: SPA, HVA, heavy right-leaning recoil

Corvus
Damage: 167 @ 10m, 125 @ 115m
RoF: 526
Reload: 1.8s/2.4s
clip/Total: 30/150
ADS/Hip Accuracy (Still/Move/Jump): 0.03/0.3/3, 2/2.5/5
CoF Bloom ADS/Hip: 0.06/0.12
Recoil Magnitude: 0.3
Recoil Angle Min/Max: 0/0
Horizontal Recoil: 0.15
Features: HVA, high damage, low RoF, high ADS accuracy, straight-up recoil, low horizontal recoil

[OctavianAXFive]

You're only half right.

Allow me to use examples from BF3 weapons since SOE more or less copied the formula from DICE (and there are lots of pretty pictures for me to use courtesy of Symthic.com)

http://symthic.com/bf3-weapon-comparison#08-06-02-02

Look at this weapon comparison of two guns with equal left right pull.

Notice their hetmaps when you scroll down.

Here is a thread explaining how to read the symthic charts.

http://forum.symthic.com/battlefield-3-technical-discussion/1434-in-depth-tutorial-for-charts-plots-recoil-and-spread-mechanism-etc/#post22816

Now here is a heatmap of guns with a slanted pull.
http://symthic.com/bf3-weapon-comparison#01-10-02-02

These two weapons, the M16A3 and the AEK-971 are considered the best in the game. The M16A3 is slightly better because it has more vertical pull and less horizontal pull, but notice that it will only ever pull in one direction (for the most part).

The same is true for guns in PS2 and doing some wall tests in the VR area a few minutes ago proved this. Guns with more aggressive side to side pull will always be harder to land bullets at long-medium to long range. Even if the pull is slanted heavily in one direction, like the AEK, it will still be harder to compensate for.

With an equal pull, your gun will jostle unpredictably and at longer ranges the shots become harder to hit because being off just a few degrees is exaggerated the farther away your target is. I strongly suggest going into the VR training area and testing this yourself on the wall dummies down in the basement (not the target acquisition range that spawns fake enemies).

I will grant that in the example I posted the G3A3 is a great gun at long range and very accurate but that is due to the lack of horizontal recoil multipliers altogether!

[Bocheezu]

Now here is a heatmap of guns with a slanted pull.
http://symthic.com/bf3-weapon-comparison#01-10-02-02

Horizontal recoil doesn't mean what I think it does, then.

[Neutral Calypso]

Sorry for double post.

This a pic from a tweet by Higby regarding the UI changes in the GU04. This is actually from a few weeks ago I believe.

Tomorrow morning you're going to get your wish buddy.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BCjHktTCEAE4hu8.jpg

Lies Loadout screen looks the same as ever!

Also, where can I get a spreadsheet that discusses the vehicle weapons?

[OctavianAXFive]

Sadly that very sexy weapon stat screen is not in the game. It's a real shame because it means the more casual people who don't go looking around for the hard data are kind of left in the dark on how their weapons are actually performing.

Well here's to hoping that the dev's eventually put that in.

I don't know what to tell you regarding the vehicle stats. Symthic.com and Denkirson aren't really keeping up with planetside, probably due to lack of commitment by their followings. I think it would behoove PSU to go ahead and put out the call for people to make something like the Symthic charts for Planetside 2. It's a lot of work to do for free but Hamma's got himself a hell of a fan site here.

May the open source be with you.