Mines to explode only when driven over and disarmable

[Sonny]

Hi all,
Saw this on reddit but no thread here about it. Tweet from higby about AT mines

I'm pretty happy about this change as I think the way AT mines can be thrown around at the moment is pretty lame. What do you guys think about it? Is this the end of the suicidal anti-sunderer engie?

edit: Higby did respond to the possibility that an engie could just explode his mines with a grenade. He also gave further details saying that any class could disarm a mine by shooting it. See the discussion here (http://redd.it/1a9407), important quotes below :

'666 Westy543' who asked:

Okay!

Drop tank mines

Throw grenade

Does add some extra work to it though, it was getting ridiculous."

Higby responded:

In this case we would be allowing the mines to be killed without detonating. Shooting them with smallarms fire would also kill them without detonation, essentially to allow anyone to disarm the mine that some butthole just kamikaze dropped on your sundy without HAVING to be an engineer, as well as making it more than just "Drop them then detonate them"

Sonny

[Canaris]

Now that would be very good! I like it

[ChipMHazard]

YES! Will we be able to see actual minefields in the near future? I hope so.

[Dodgy Commando]

Nice touch about disarming them, too.

[JesNC]

While I agree that throwing AT mines like frisbees is lame right now, this change -combined with the change to c4 - is going to make AT mines lame, period.

[Dodgy Commando]

Mines actually working like mines hasn't broken any other games that employ them correctly (i.e. BF3 and PS1 to mention but them).

I don't care if it makes some people cry because they can't frisbee kill a vehicle anymore. Lamest thing ever.

[Kerrec]

As frustrating as having your Sunderer insta-killed by mines is, this proposed change is going to cripple defensive efforts.

This game, as it is now, is about controlling spawns. If you attack, you have to push defenders off the points and corner them in their spawnrooms.

As defenders, you have to take out enemy spawn points as fast as they come, or else at the very best, you have a never ending battle.

If mines become a non-threat to parked sunderers, then Blockade armor will be THE defacto choice. That means Sunderers will become much stronger versus other vehicles and HA rockets.

I've seen many "arguments" that a team using a sunderer should require a team to take out a sunderer. However, when I play, I see teams trying vainly to hold points (bases and points not really designed for defense) while one or two guys try to take out the sunderer. So the whole "suicide engy" vs. Team argument is flawed IMO. There IS a team effort against the Sunderer, it's just not all focused AT the Sunderer. THIS is what people fail to see and understand.

Making Sunderers harder to kill is going to cripple defenses even more.

One last point: I'll just spec into sticky grenades now. So it will be click-click-G instead of click-click.

[Sturmhardt]

Finally an end to the discussion. Thanks SOE, good call.

.sent via phone.

[ChipMHazard]

Want I'm thinking about now is the wording of the tweet. Will you only be able to remove mines by either driving over them or by disarming them? Will firing at them no longer have any effect? Could make for some very interesting gameplay.

[Hamma]

Thanks for posting this honestly happy to hear about it.

[Mod]

Great to hear, although I think shooting them with small arms fire should still detonate them.

Having some sort of disarm skill for the engy and/or infil would be great as well.

[CraazyCanuck]

Throwing mines=bad. Agreed. But changing it so they only go off when driven over? If the target that mine is geared for is within the proximity radius of the mine it should go off regardless if there is any movement.

They just need to implement a set time for each mine placement and call it a day. And if they implement a set time on mines there needs to be the same on c4. The fact that a light assault can use his jetpack and drop c4 with the same ease needs to also be modified.

[GunmanTheH]

Isn't this pointless? You will just drop your mines and then throw granade on them to make them explode

[ChipMHazard]

Isn't this pointless? You will just drop your mines and then throw granade on them to make them explode

Except if that is indeed no longer possible.

[Canaris]

As frustrating as having your Sunderer insta-killed by mines is, this proposed change is going to cripple defensive efforts.

This game, as it is now, is about controlling spawns. If you attack, you have to push defenders off the points and corner them in their spawnrooms.

As defenders, you have to take out enemy spawn points as fast as they come, or else at the very best, you have a never ending battle.

If mines become a non-threat to parked sunderers, then Blockade armor will be THE defacto choice. That means Sunderers will become much stronger versus other vehicles and HA rockets.

I've seen many "arguments" that a team using a sunderer should require a team to take out a sunderer. However, when I play, I see teams trying vainly to hold points (bases and points not really designed for defense) while one or two guys try to take out the sunderer. So the whole "suicide engy" vs. Team argument is flawed IMO. There IS a team effort against the Sunderer, it's just not all focused AT the Sunderer. THIS is what people fail to see and understand.

Making Sunderers harder to kill is going to cripple defenses even more.

One last point: I'll just spec into sticky grenades now. So it will be click-click-G instead of click-click.

That's what C4 is for, the use of mines with this tactic was poor design choice from the start.

[Sonny]

Isn't this pointless? You will just drop your mines and then throw granade on them to make them explode

Hi GunmanTheH (and all),

I updated the OP with higby's further comments regarding disarming. They have considered the possibility of engies throwing grenades at their own mines to blow them up - now mines will not explode when you or anyone shoots them. Instead, they will just disappear.

Only engineers will get exp for disarming an enemy mine. Destroying one will get you no xp.

[CraazyCanuck]

That's an assinine change. Shooting will make it disappear with no reprecussions? Great solution Higby. No one will care about the loss of opportunity for xp because you shot it instead of waiting for an engy to remove it. The threat will be removed just by shooting it with no adverse side effects. Mines will no longer be certed and carried and everyone will just start carrying c4. There will be no use for them as a mine field deterrent because no one will bother to put them down because any stray small arms fire will remove them without any chance of collateral dmg.

Is recertification available yet?

[ChipMHazard]

I agree. That seems like a bad decision. Why would anyone go out of their way to let engineers disarm the mines when they can simply be removed by firing at them, xp be damned. This won't allow for minefields to be effective.

[Carbon Copied]

Does it raise the question that if damage despawns a mine - if you set several in a mine field (or as close as it currently allows :mad: ); whats to say that only one or two will go off because the chain reaction (which is sometimes the case) has caused the others to despawn. Seems abit naff..

[BlazingSun]

I never understood why you can throw around the AV mines, but can't do the same with a simple ammo pack.

[CraazyCanuck]

And think about the situation that is the biggest complaint. Those "buttholes" doing the Kami Sundy kills. Someone lays mines, that for some reason no one bothers to clear out by shooting them. The gents using this sundy are a patient lot and love any little bit of xp they can get. *lightbulb* They're at a sundy, they'll just change to an engy and remove them for the xp. Just remove mines from the game and refund the certs for them and be done with it.

[Gatekeeper]

It's a good sign that they're trying to make some changes here, because they're definitely needed - but TBH this seems like a dodgy quick fix that isn't really going to please anyone.

I honestly cannot see any reason not to simply adopt PS1's approach here. I know people get tired of hearing veterans say that, but it really does make sense in this case.


Allow people to deploy more mines (8-10 maybe?)
Reduce damage per mine to 50-75% of current.
Mines should be deployed at your feet, and take a little time to place (like ammo packs)
Mines should have a deployment radius that stops them being placed too close together (equal to outer blast radius?)


Make those changes and you don't need to change how they're detonated. Although I think allowing Engis to disarm them and earn XP by doing so sounds fine.

[DeeX]

I don't understand why so much people complain about how tankmines work. Its not "easy" to get close enough to a crowded enemy sunderer and place enough tankmines to blow it up.

If this will change its even more pointless to defend anything, because its near to impossible to kill an enemy sunderer. GG metagame!

Everyone who deploys his sunderer in the middle of a base and leave it mindless without protecting it deserves to lose it. Period

[ChipMHazard]

It's a good sign that they're trying to make some changes here, because they're definitely needed - but TBH this seems like a dodgy quick fix that isn't really going to please anyone.

I honestly cannot see any reason not to simply adopt PS1's approach here. I know people get tired of hearing veterans say that, but it really does make sense in this case.


Allow people to deploy more mines (8-10 maybe?)
Reduce damage per mine to 50-75% of current.
Mines should be deployed at your feet, and take a little time to place (like ammo packs)
Mines should have a deployment radius that stops them being placed too close together (equal to outer blast radius?)


Make those changes and you don't need to change how they're detonated. Although I think allowing Engis to disarm them and earn XP by doing so sounds fine.

I competely agree, especially about making mines function like ammo packs when it comes to placing them. That would solve many of the issues with them being used as C4. Only issue I can really see with that is that the terrain can make it fiddly to place things.

I don't understand why so much people complain about how tankmines work. Its not "easy" to get close enough to a crowded enemy sunderer and place enough tankmines to blow it up.


Well one major complaint has been that mines are being used as C4, just throwing them off elevated positions.
I don't really agree that it's not "easy" to get close enough to put down a couple of mines. It's harder to survive after having done so, from what I remember. But what is gained far exceeds what was lost.

[Crator]

^ What GateKeeper said!

[Kerrec]

That's what C4 is for, the use of mines with this tactic was poor design choice from the start.

Matter of opinion, but whatever.

I can't speak for anyone else, but if this makes it Live, then the second I can refund my certs, I will get rid of Mines on my engineer. In situations where I want to kill a Sunderer, I will resort to a HA with 2x C4 and a dumbfire rocket. I will also refund my Mineguard certs on my Sunderer...

People that want their "minefields" can waste their certs and resources killing flashes, but I won't.

This change will make mines not worth certing into, and will make Mineguard redundant. Get ready to see every non utility Sundy packing Blockade armor. Gratz on making Mineguard "not a requirement" while making Blockade the obvious choice to take since it reduces every other source of damage (can't possibly be biased towards Blockade, right!?)

No one bothers to discuss the issue that defense is already VERY difficult. Making Sunderers harder to kill is only going to make that WORSE.

[Rahabib]

as someone who primarily plays engy - this was needed.

[Kerrec]

Hi GunmanTheH (and all),

I updated the OP with higby's further comments regarding disarming. They have considered the possibility of engies throwing grenades at their own mines to blow them up - now mines will not explode when you or anyone shoots them. Instead, they will just disappear.

Only engineers will get exp for disarming an enemy mine. Destroying one will get you no xp.

Higby was very specific in saying that SMALL ARMS FIRE would destroy them without detonation. However, explosives STILL remain a possible trigger. So 2 mines + sticky grenade will do the same job, just cost a bit more resources.

[CraazyCanuck]

Matter of opinion, but whatever.

I can't speak for anyone else, but if this makes it Live, then the second I can refund my certs, I will get rid of Mines on my engineer. In situations where I want to kill a Sunderer, I will resort to a HA with 2x C4 and a dumbfire rocket. I will also refund my Mineguard certs on my Sunderer...

People that want their "minefields" can waste their certs and resources killing flashes, but I won't.

This change will make mines not worth certing into, and will make Mineguard redundant. Get ready to see every non utility Sundy packing Blockade armor. Gratz on making Mineguard "not a requirement" while making Blockade the obvious choice to take since it reduces every other source of damage (can't possibly be biased towards Blockade, right!?)

No one bothers to discuss the issue that defense is already VERY difficult. Making Sunderers harder to kill is only going to make that WORSE.

Exactly Kerrec.

[CraazyCanuck]

Higby was very specific in saying that SMALL ARMS FIRE would destroy them without detonation. However, explosives STILL remain a possible trigger. So 2 mines + sticky grenade will do the same job, just cost a bit more resources.

I think that will need to be reconfirmed because that response from Higby was after someone stated using a grenade to set them off.

Edit: Reason was his wording.

'666 Westy543' who asked:


Okay!

Drop tank mines

Throw grenade

Does add some extra work to it though, it was getting ridiculous."

Higby responded:


In this case we would be allowing the mines to be killed without detonating. Shooting them with smallarms fire would also kill them without detonation, essentially to allow anyone to disarm the mine that some butthole just kamikaze dropped on your sundy without HAVING to be an engineer, as well as making it more than just "Drop them then detonate them"

I would take that as grenades and small arms will destroy the mines without detonation.

[Canaris]

these proposed changes are very similar to how mines functioned in PS1, this is a very good thing for the game.

[Striker KOJ]

Don't agree with this change in the slightest.

Does the setting of this game even matter anymore? Isn't this some distant planet in the far future inhabited by an advanced human race augmented by technology that provides (near) unlimited energy, and the ability to cheat death by preserving the memories and consciousness of an individual after their body is blown to pieces, transmitting that consciousness Wirelessly to some super computer that can reconstruct the individuals body and download the consciousness into the new body in seconds, plus all of the weapons and vehicles materializing out of thin air.

But these people can't figure out how to make an Anti-Vehicle explosive that detonates by proximity? "Well shit, we named it a mine, so I guess we have to go by the oldest, most narrow definition of this object, because we don't have the intelligence to improvise."

Really?

I'm tired of these steps backward in technology. I understand trying to achieve some sort of "game balance", but doesn't it at least have to make sense in the setting of the game? Should we all be riding in horse-drawn buggies, because 200 years ago there were no motor vehicles? Or have we made some technological strides since then, and have the ability to project what the technology might be like in the future.

This isn't WWII Online, this is the flipping future.

[maradine]

Extremely happy with the change. Now let's get one or two more of them at the base cert level and we have ourselves a ballgame.

Striker - On a distant planet in the far future inhabited by an advanced human race augmented by technology that provides (near) unlimited energy, and the ability to cheat death by preserving the memories and consciousness of an individual after their body is blown to pieces, there would be no war.

Let's not go down the "this isn't consistant with a future narrative" well. It has no bottom and no ladder back out.

[Skarn]

Extremely happy with the change. Now let's get one or two more of them at the base cert level and we have ourselves a ballgame.

We need more then just that, the extremely low number of carriable mines combined with the high inf resource cost are why you see mines currently being used as satchel charges instead of actual mines. We need to at least double the amount for all cert lvls so we can actually be able to use them as mines. Being able to be disarmed by engies sounds like a good idea, but being disarmed by everyone with smallarms is dumb.

The changes can easily be explained by tech advancement. The VS developed new anti-FoF proximity energy fields were installed on most vehicles, making them invisible to the AV mines sensors, but the fields are disrupted by fast movement. NC and TR spies quickly obtained blueprints of this anti-mine tech and installed it on their own vehicles.

This will mean it's a no brainer to go with blockade over mine guard with my sundie, it's currently a hard choice sometimes.


Guess i'll be blowing more certs on C4 on my engie.

[Striker KOJ]

Extremely happy with the change. Now let's get one or two more of them at the base cert level and we have ourselves a ballgame.

Striker - On a distant planet in the far future inhabited by an advanced human race augmented by technology that provides (near) unlimited energy, and the ability to cheat death by preserving the memories and consciousness of an individual after their body is blown to pieces, there would be no war.

Let's not go down the "this isn't consistant with a future narrative" well. It has no bottom and no ladder back out.


But does that mean it has to be cast aside? Why?

I don't log into a futuristic shooter and expect muskets, and cry when there's laser beams. Like I said, I understand trying to achieve some semblance of balance, but this particular change seems like a step backward. I don't find the ability to throw a proximity explosive at a stationary vehicle "unbalanced", unlikely, impossible, or so so rare that the mechanic should just not exist, especially in this setting.

You say there would be no war, but that's entirely horse S and you know it. These are still (presumably) humans; humans go to war with each other. They took the time to create a back story explaining WHY there is a war, so there is a war. They even created a fake corporation who is responsible for the manufacture, and presumably development of all of these weapons of war. I find it hard to believe that a proximity/IFF anti vehicle explosive just never crossed their mind, especially when there is a proximity/IFF antipersonnel explosive...

In fact, these fictional factions are so creative and resourceful that they have developed THREE different types of IFF/poximity antipersonnel mines.

But whatever.

[maradine]

But whatever.

Precisely.

[Striker KOJ]

Precisely.

Precisely, indeed. I have yet to see anyone present a case for the change that made any sense, but I guess exploring an issue from more than the perspective of "I don't like it, so change it" isn't a valid, or wanted, argument either. Hence, whatever.

I also don't believe that just because a developer makes a tweet means it's a good idea. But as I enjoy other aspects of this product, I suppose I will grin and bear it.

[psijaka]

Good news.

Finally mines will be mines.

[HiroshiChugi]

But i love exploding frisbees!!!!!! :d

[ChipMHazard]

But i love exploding frisbees!!!!!! :d

Never visit a dog park:p

[Cupbearer]

The only people that bitch about this is are the ones that don't spec their sundy's into mine guard and want to see endless +2 exp from them. If you didn't like the Kamakazi engi then put down a couple proximity type mines to fend them off or just park in a better spot.

But as long as tank mines + underbarrel grenade launcher works then that is fine I guess. I hardly get killed until after the sundy is down and about 3 or 4 people nowadays even though it's such a big threat...

@canaris as soon as 2 c-4's guarantee the sundy blows then maybe. Or change out the certs so that we don't have to give up flak armor for utility pouch to be able to take one out. Add a third c-4 for 1000 cert points or something like that... Maybe...

[Badjuju]

While I agree that throwing AT mines like frisbees is lame right now, this change -combined with the change to c4 - is going to make AT mines lame, period.

Hopefully people will start using them defensively on roads against upcoming assaults as they did in ps1. With the new hex system you should be able to predict battle flow better and you could potentially mine up an area pretty good before an enemy assault.

[Striker KOJ]

Hopefully people will start using them defensively on roads against upcoming assaults as they did in ps1. With the new hex system you should be able to predict battle flow better and you could potentially mine up an area pretty good before an enemy assault.

Let us not forget, if the argument for this change is to make it more inline with Planetside 1...

Mines also exploded via proximity in Planetside 1, in addition to being used as defensive area denial.

[Badjuju]

Good change IMO. I don't believe taking out a sundie should be a one man suicide job. It should be a group effort in my eyes. Yes there is mine guard but this makes mine guard mandatory which shouldn't be the case.

[Cupbearer]

Oh, and BTW, if we are advanced enough players to figure out that the Sundy is the tide changer of the game as a suicide engi then we will just figure out another way to blow them up. Even if you make me give up my Max flak armor for a utility pouch so that I can carry 4 or 5 - c-4 charges. I'll have a better chance of getting away before I blow it. It will take more time to get there, but we will still destroy the Sundy as the number 1 threat to an attack.

Why not start learning how to protect them a little better. They are the number 1 target to both ground and air personel. No one randomly kills my racer 3 with mineguard 4 sundy with a few bouncing bettys placed around it...

And now what we will get from this change is even less defense from the armor column zerg. We can just move aside until they disperse because they can't stay together any more and retake the territories.

[Ghoest9]

Don't agree with this change in the slightest.

Does the setting of this game even matter anymore? Isn't this some distant planet in the far future inhabited by an advanced human race augmented by technology that provides (near) unlimited energy, and the ability to cheat death by preserving the memories and consciousness of an individual after their body is blown to pieces, transmitting that consciousness Wirelessly to some super computer that can reconstruct the individuals body and download the consciousness into the new body in seconds, plus all of the weapons and vehicles materializing out of thin air.

But these people can't figure out how to make an Anti-Vehicle explosive that detonates by proximity? "Well shit, we named it a mine, so I guess we have to go by the oldest, most narrow definition of this object, because we don't have the intelligence to improvise."

Really?

I'm tired of these steps backward in technology. I understand trying to achieve some sort of "game balance", but doesn't it at least have to make sense in the setting of the game? Should we all be riding in horse-drawn buggies, because 200 years ago there were no motor vehicles? Or have we made some technological strides since then, and have the ability to project what the technology might be like in the future.

This isn't WWII Online, this is the flipping future.


best post of thread

[ThatGoatGuy]

I want there to be a way where you can retrieve tank mines/C4. Like a button you press, that way, if you accidentally click when you have them out (i.e. UBGL has been really screwing my up with my tank mines and when I wanna throw down a turret/ammo), you can still get them back up rather than having to go back to a terminal and resupply.

[Badjuju]

Let us not forget, if the argument for this change is to make it more inline with Planetside 1...

Mines also exploded via proximity in Planetside 1, in addition to being used as defensive area denial.

I wasn't making the argument to put them in line with ps1. Just providing an example of how they can be used defensively. We saw massive mine fields in PS1 which is why I brought it up. Not sure of another game where we have seen this.

Obviously defensive mining would be much different in PS2 as you have less, but more powerful mines that operate slightly different.

Overall point, it would be nice to see them used as a preemptive defense strategy which I think will be good for game play, and a tiny step towards building more of that team/empire based strategic mentality which we eventually saw in PS1.

Just my opinion though.

[Cupbearer]

I wasn't making the argument to put them in line with ps1. Just providing an example of how they can be used defensively. We saw massive mine fields in PS1 which is why I brought it up. Not sure of another game where we have seen this.

Obviously defensive mining would be much different in PS2 as you have less, but more powerful mines that operate slightly different.

Overall point, it would be nice to see them used as a preemptive defense strategy which I think will be good for game play, and a tiny step towards building more of that team/empire based strategic mentality which we eventually saw in PS1.

Just my opinion though.

Um, btw, the sniper is going to disarm all of your mines. Duh!!! one shot to disarm and not even have to worry about them blowing up.

[Crator]

Oh, and BTW, if we are advanced enough players to figure out that the Sundy is the tide changer of the game as a suicide engi then we will just figure out another way to blow them up.

Is that the reason why they are making changes to mines? I thought it was because it was just cheap to be able to throw them on top of things and blow stuff up. But, if that's the main concern all I gots to say about that is "cloak bubble".

[o Solei o]

I'm pretty happy about this change as I think the way AT mines can be thrown around at the moment is pretty lame. What do you guys think about it? Is this the end of the suicidal anti-sunderer engie?


You do realize people are just going to replace this with jihad-quads, right? You're not loosing anything with this change.

Also, if you don't like engies dropping mines, take mine-guard. Works wonders.

I really hope that if they make it so that engies can "disarm" them (with something other than the bullets we already use, I presume) that they make it so that we can pick up our own mines to redeploy them. Same goes for C-4.

Personally though, I'd much prefer they start the bug-fixing with actual bugs. Ex: Last night I went to quickly deploy some mines while repeatedly falling back to make my contribution to slowing the zerg's advance and claim the lives of a few kill-farmers. (Always a satisfying experience.) I see someone run by a window and hastily try to set my last mine.... NINE TIMES. Nine times did I click the button, and nine times did the animation play. Yet as if by magic bungie cord, that mine teleported back into my inventory each time. (I'm not sure how many more times this would have happened as I got shot during animation 10.)

If you're going to "fix" things, can we start with the actual bugs please?

[ThatGoatGuy]

I've noticed that reloading is a bit screwy with the latest patch as well. It gets to like 3/5 around the circle then resets. Then goes about 1/4 and then resets. And then boom, you've reloaded.

[CraazyCanuck]

Yes the bug where you can't get rid of the crazyglue covered mines is fun to experience. Happens several times in a play sesssion for me.

'this time' *nope* 'ok this time' *nope* 'dammit this time, before someone comes in' *nope* 'God dammit you mtfu drop to the f'ing ground already' *nope* 'arrghhh!!!! MTFU!!!' *nope* *bang bang*

[Neutral Calypso]

Hi GunmanTheH (and all),

I updated the OP with higby's further comments regarding disarming. They have considered the possibility of engies throwing grenades at their own mines to blow them up - now mines will not explode when you or anyone shoots them. Instead, they will just disappear.

Only engineers will get exp for disarming an enemy mine. Destroying one will get you no xp.


In before ESFs rocketpod the roads ahead of tank columns to minesweep.

[Saintlycow]

Great, so instead of having Mineguard as the Meta, Blockade armor is the Meta again.

Literally all they had to fucking do was make a longer AT mine animation. 5 seconds to arm and drop. That way you can't instakill a sundy, or else you die in the explosion of the first mine.

Or they could have made the mines take 30 seconds to arm. If no one spots a mine in 30 seconds, you deserve to get blown the fuck up. Open your bloody eyes. Engineers can still defuse in this scenario

No body will feel like they need to defend the sunderer again. Mines encourage sloppy gameplay, but at least defending a sunderer makes sense. People are just going to abbandon their cert cows again.


Oh well, we get invisible jihad quads now. Can't exactly complain.

Invisible Jihad quads > At mines.

You can't counter it with mineguard.

1) Spawn a flash with cloak and M20 or M40),
2) drop C4 on it,
3) change to infil
4) drive to sundy (while fucking INVISIBLE)
5) Uncloak
6) Unload weapons onto sundy.
7) Bail the fuck out, and grenade your flash. C4 goes boom, and hopefully your flash gun did enough damage so it gets instakilled. Alternatively, drive into sunderer, and shoot M40, causing you, your c4, and the sundy to pop.

[Wahooo]

This was the wrong solution to something that wasn't even a problem IMO.

IF sundies were not so readily available 500m from any fight, and IF the attackers didn't already have an advantage in most bases, and IF mine guard wasn't about the cheapest thing to max out (350 certs) then I guess I could see caving into this.

BUT... FFS the people complaining "wah... mines should only explode when you drive over them." Seriously? They have an IFF in them right? why SHOULDN"T they be proximity detonated? Maybe if they simply exploded anytime anything rolled over them.. but that whole line of reasoning is stupid.

Suicidal engineers are an issue? Really? This argument coming from some of the most diehard "K/D doesn't matter" people? Sacrifice yourself for the team. I just don't see the issue.

The ONLY thing I can understand as a change to mines is that they should be placed similar to an ammo pack or turret. Being able to fling them off the second floor of a tower or an amp station wall and what not... I personally don't mind... but think it would be a sensible change.

This other stuff I simply don't get.

[zulu]

Precisely, indeed. I have yet to see anyone present a case for the change that made any sense,
How about the fact that it undermines the purpose of C4? Why cert into C4 when you can go the cheaper route of just taking mines? The potential damage against infantry doesn't really seem to balance that out.


but I guess exploring an issue from more than the perspective of "I don't like it, so change it" isn't a valid, or wanted, argument either. Hence, whatever.
It's completely valid. That's an opinion about aesthetics. But other opinions about aesthetics will be equally valid. It's worthy of discussion, but not really argument.

I also don't believe that just because a developer makes a tweet means it's a good idea.
Who suggested such an idea?

[Kerrec]

How about the fact that it undermines the purpose of C4? Why cert into C4 when you can go the cheaper route of just taking mines? The potential damage against infantry doesn't really seem to balance that out.

This is a matter of opinion.

I have 2x C4 certed on my Light Assault. I have 3x AV Mines certed on my Engineer.

I have run into situations where I'm playing my engineer and I think to myself, "Shit, wish I was playing my LA instead so I can C4 that <whatever>".

I can't recall ONE time when I'm playing my LA and I think to myself, "Shit, wish I was playing my Engineer so I can AV Mine that <whatever>".

C4 is MUCH more versatile than an AV mine and can be used by alot more classes. AV mines are only available to the engineer, and using it as improvised C4 against anything but a vehicle is not easy or costs a grenade (so the overall resource cost is larger than C4).

I don't buy into the whole "AV mines undermine C4" argument. It's rubbish.

[Sonny]

Literally all they had to fucking do was make a longer AT mine animation. 5 seconds to arm and drop. That way you can't instakill a sundy, or else you die in the explosion of the first mine.

Or they could have made the mines take 30 seconds to arm. If no one spots a mine in 30 seconds, you deserve to get blown the fuck up. Open your bloody eyes. Engineers can still defuse in this scenario

I agree with you that either of these would have been a better solution.

[SonofSkz]

Its been said before I will say this too. People whining about losing their sunderer? So what? They are without question the hardest vehicle to kill in the game, also if you want to be protected from mines buy a 30 cert mineguard and defend it! I defend bases all damn day from enemy attack, the only way to even slow them is to destroy the sunderers. You know what happens? They flood the area with sunderers. But one sunderer with some mineguard and its so much harder to kill off you want to nerf the few advantages an organised squad has against a sunderer fine but don't think this will balance the game. Defense should be accomplishable with a smaller force against a larger that's what leads to the epic battles that we want to see. Having tank mines be disable able is fine, having to drive directly over them is a bit of a kick in the nuts, I mean i love placing tank mines where the enemy vehicles WILL be is great. But the map is huge there is no way you can predict exactly where they will drive this will make that pointless, plus as it stands most people can only place two that's not really enough to set up any kind of defence. If just tank mines are nerfed as a result of this whining and refusal to adapt to the game I will be seriously disappointed.

[Striker KOJ]

How about the fact that it undermines the purpose of C4? Why cert into C4 when you can go the cheaper route of just taking mines? The potential damage against infantry doesn't really seem to balance that out.


Except it does nothing of the sort. There are other classes that can use C4. I have probably killed more tanks with my Medic and C4 than I have with an Engineer and Tank Mines, because that is MY choice. Nerf Medics, right, because their "intended role" was support, so they shouldn't be allowed to damage vehicles.

C4 can be used to instagib MAXes and infantry. Should we be railing against infantry mines becasue they "undermine the purpose of C4"? Or is that completely false because C4 has other purposes? Purposes that may or my not overlap with other items? Fuck, rocket launchers and greande launchers can instagib infantry, and at range, with no resource cost. Completely undermining the purpose of C4 right? Or are they completely different tools that may have some overlapping application?

So because one item with a proximity sesnsor is not another item with a remote trigger, we need to remove the proximity sensor? Why does that make sense? And why isn't this argument applied to anti personnel mines, which do the exact same thing as vehicle mines, except they kill YOU, and not your vehicle?

Next time you see somebody kill an infantry with a personnel mine, you better report them for abuse, because it undermines the purpose of rifles...

[o Solei o]

Yes the bug where you can't get rid of the crazyglue covered mines is fun to experience. Happens several times in a play sesssion for me.

'this time' *nope* 'ok this time' *nope* 'dammit this time, before someone comes in' *nope* 'God dammit you mtfu drop to the f'ing ground already' *nope* 'arrghhh!!!! MTFU!!!' *nope* *bang bang*

Hah! Yep, that's it in a nutshell. :lol:

Literally all they had to fucking do was make a longer AT mine animation. 5 seconds to arm and drop. That way you can't instakill a sundy, or else you die in the explosion of the first mine.

Or they could have made the mines take 30 seconds to arm. If no one spots a mine in 30 seconds, you deserve to get blown the fuck up. Open your bloody eyes. Engineers can still defuse in this scenario

I could go for a compromise of dropping at the speed they do now, but taking 15 sec to arm. Still lets you get in under the wire in a last-second base deployment (important if anyone in the advancing zerg isn't sleeping), but lets people deal with em if dropped under a bumrushed sundy.

C4 does need to have a purpose, and it should be worth certing/carrying instead of hypos.

[ComerEste]

I agree this needed to change, but in my opinion it is only the result of the crappy system SOE put in to begin with. We told you guys back in beta to make mines like they were in PS1 cause we saw this coming. This change will make mines almost useless since the average person can only put down 2 mines. 2 mines are not enough to hinder vehicle movements, they simply go around them. Not to mention that most of the time you put them down, it's only after vehicles show up. Because putting them down before they show up, if they show up at all, will mean wasted resources as it takes 2 mines to blow up vehicles, so you have to put them on top of each other. So the area you can defend with mines is very tiny while battlefield is huge with many directions vehicles can attack from.

Lower the damage and resource cost of mines by like 80% and make the first cert rank into mines deploy up to 5, next rank 5 more, and the utility pouch ranks add 5 more per rank. So a heavily invested engineer can deploy up to 20 mines. The damage to vehicles should be like 2 mines to kill an ATV, 6 for Lightning, 8 for buggies, 10 for MBT, and 12 for Sundy. Each rank of mine guard should protect you from 1 additional mine per rank.

If you don't want to change mines to this, then why not do both versions? Have high damage mines that people can only put a total of 5 down along with mines that do low damage that you can deploy a total of 20. I bet you the low damage mines would win the popularity contest simply because they would actually do the job mines are supposed to do, which is slow enemy advances.

Also, the earlier posts about mine guard are so friggin on the money that it's painful to see SOE ignore them. People whine left n right about mines when they can spend 30 certs, the price of a damn scope on a gun, and instantly survive 2 mines. Another 50 certs and they will survive 3. A fully maxed out mine guard, which doesn't take long to get, makes mines laughable. When I deploy a Sundy, I switch to my M60 grenade launcher gunner seat and guard it. I kill LA/Engi's all the time and it usually takes a concerted effort to bring me down. Any AMS driver worth his salt will guard his or her own Sundy. SOE, you "fixing" this "problem" basically means your caving to people who refuse to learn how to play the game.

[zulu]

This is a matter of opinion.

I have 2x C4 certed on my Light Assault. I have 3x AV Mines certed on my Engineer.

I have run into situations where I'm playing my engineer and I think to myself, "Shit, wish I was playing my LA instead so I can C4 that <whatever>".

I can't recall ONE time when I'm playing my LA and I think to myself, "Shit, wish I was playing my Engineer so I can AV Mine that <whatever>".

No, that's not a matter of opinion -- it's a matter of rational analysis.

C4 is intended to blow up stationary targets. C4 is available for the Engineer, but take mines are not available for the Light Assault, so whether or not you purchased C4 for your LA is irrelevant. Why would the Engineer ever cert into C4, when for half the cost he can cert into tank mines and take out most targets he wants to blow up far more efficiently?

So seeing as C4 is not at as good at its intended role as a cheaper alternative available to the same class: Yes -- it OBVIOUSLY undermines C4's role in the game.

C4 is MUCH more versatile than an AV mine
The only things it can do that an AV Mine can't do are:
1) Blow up Phalanx turrets
2) Blow up infantry (and doing this with AV mines is possible, if difficult)
But seeing as, even before the latest patch, taking out tanks and sunderers netted far more XP, and blowing up these other targets are really rather niche given the cost of C4 (less so for the Phalanx, I suppose), tank mines are just clearly the better option for an engineer looking to blow up stuff.

and can be used by alot more classes.
That doesn't matter in the slightest. Rocket launchers can only be used by the HA class, but if I came to you and said, "Rockets are OP," a good response would not be "Oh, but only the Heavy Assault can use them." That's totally irrelevant.

AV mines are only available to the engineer, and using it as improvised C4 against anything but a vehicle is not easy or costs a grenade (so the overall resource cost is larger than C4).
Attaching C4 to a tank is difficult. Just as difficult or moreso than throwing frisbee mines at it. And the opportunity cost of losing the grenade is minimal, especially seeing as you can change your loadouts in an instant in this game.

I don't buy into the whole "AV mines undermine C4" argument. It's rubbish.
I think that's because you don't understand the argument, its foundations, or its implications.

[ComerEste]

Another thing people fail to realize is the end result of this change. Because I don't want my Sundy to be insta-killed by mines, I have Mine Guard. Which makes me vulnerable to all other damage sources: HA's rockets, LA's C4, tanks, and aircraft. If this change goes in, I will be switching to Blockade Armor which reduces damage from ALL SOURCES. So not only will my deployed Sundy be immune to mines, but I will be shrugging off the other damage sources. Combine all that with decent AMS drivers like me who stay with their Sundy to protect/repair it and the troops that spawn at them, Sundies will be nigh impossible to kill.

[Kerrec]

No, that's not a matter of opinion -- it's a matter of rational analysis.

C4 is intended to blow up stationary targets. C4 is available for the Engineer, but take mines are not available for the Light Assault, so whether or not you purchased C4 for your LA is irrelevant. Why would the Engineer ever cert into C4, when for half the cost he can cert into tank mines and take out most targets he wants to blow up far more efficiently?

So seeing as C4 is not at as good at its intended role as a cheaper alternative available to the same class: Yes -- it OBVIOUSLY undermines C4's role in the game.


The only things it can do that an AV Mine can't do are:
1) Blow up Phalanx turrets
2) Blow up infantry (and doing this with AV mines is possible, if difficult)
But seeing as, even before the latest patch, taking out tanks and sunderers netted far more XP, and blowing up these other targets are really rather niche given the cost of C4 (less so for the Phalanx, I suppose), tank mines are just clearly the better option for an engineer looking to blow up stuff.


That doesn't matter in the slightest. Rocket launchers can only be used by the HA class, but if I came to you and said, "Rockets are OP," a good response would not be "Oh, but only the Heavy Assault can use them." That's totally irrelevant.


Attaching C4 to a tank is difficult. Just as difficult or moreso than throwing frisbee mines at it. And the opportunity cost of losing the grenade is minimal, especially seeing as you can change your loadouts in an instant in this game.


I think that's because you don't understand the argument, its foundations, or its implications.

I clearly stated that I have C4 on my LA and AV Mines on my engineer. I also stated that I have frequently run into situations where I wished I was playing LA with C4 when I was playing Eng with Mines. The opposite is rarely if ever true. This, based on my playstyle and cert progress, shows ME that I much prefer to have C4 than Mines in every situation EXCEPT attacking Sunderers. I did not bring up the LA vs. Engineer for any other reason than to show I have been in situations where I wished I was the other. Eng. vs. LA is irrelevant.

C4 is intended to blow up stationary targets? So when I fly onto a moving tank with my LA, drop 2 C4 and blow it up WHILE IT IS MOVING, does that mean that C4 is stepping on the role of AV Mines? Are you then going to propose to SOE that C4 not stick to anything that moves?

You pigeonhole roles to C4 and AV mines that are absurd to me. That is why I think your whole argument is a question of opinion. I do not agree that mines = moving only and C4 = not moving. That is like saying you can't ever use your HA dumbfire rocket to kill infantry because that is not what it is meant to do. In fact, HA dumbfire rocket fired at infantry would be stepping on the toes of grenades and grenade launchers, if everyone was to be inflexible like you.

C4 will never be inferior to AV mines because AV mines are grossly restricted in comparison. Or in other words, C4 is MUCH more versatile.

C4 can stick to any surface. Because of that, you can attack air vehicles with it. I've seen videos of an LA dropping from a Galaxy, drop 2 C4 on a Liberator and detonate it for the kills. That is IMPOSSIBLE with AV Mines.

I personally put C4 on walls or ceilings so they are harder to notice and less likely to be triggered by grenades or bullets.

If I know an armor column is heading up the road, I will choose to use C4 before AV mines. Why? Because I can watch and CHOOSE what vehicle to kill. Don't want to kill that Flash driving in the forefront of the column? Let it go, wait for a MBT before hitting the trigger. Not possible with AV mines.

C4 can be thrown where you know a gaggle of infantry is located and trigger it without having to expose yourself to their fire. Especially useful with LA that get on rooftops, but still possible with other classes. An engineer with AV mines can do the same, but would have to throw a grenade and hope it bounces properly, or expose himself to shoot at the AV mines.

The only time I will choose Engineer with AV mines over LA with C4 is if I want to kill a Sunderer because C4 is superior overall.

Your argument that AV mines > C4 is absurd.

[Rothnang]

I think this is a great change.

Explosive weapons that you can simply slap on a target and kill it are idiotic in this game. That kind of weapon is based on the idea of high risk/high reward, but there is no freaking risk in it, since death doesn't matter.

[Wahooo]

I think this is a great change.

Explosive weapons that you can simply slap on a target and kill it are idiotic in this game. That kind of weapon is based on the idea of high risk/high reward, but there is no freaking risk in it, since death doesn't matter.

If this is the issue AT mines are HARDLY the biggest offender.

[WarbirdTD]

I too cannot wait for Tank Mines to be relegated to complete uselessness. Good job guys, but I think the game needs to be dumbed down a bit more. Maybe just make Sunderers take no damage from anything while deployed? That'd make defense MUCH more fun. Maybe we can make it to where NO ONE will defend and see how fast the game crumbles?

[maradine]

Good job guys, but I think the game needs to be dumbed down a bit more.

That phrase doesn't mean what you think it does. This has been a public service announcement.

To the point, mines will now be used for what they are arguably intended - approach management and area denial. Personally, I find the roadside 12x kill far more delicious than 0x-1x tower-side gank.

[Silent Thunder]

Hell I would argue that mines that can be thrown off the side of a cliff ontop of tanks is the epitome of both dumbing down and poor foresight on the dev who designed it in the first place. After all mines are supposed to be a directional charge (and before you give me that Nanites crap, the whole point of a directional charge is for better armour penetration, which something designed to damage a tank or APC would damn well need.), and it makes no sense for a directional charge that can simply be thrown out windows/offcliffs/run and throw. Im also agreeing with those that say mines should have damage signifigantly reduced, but also the amount carried should be dramatically increased. So you can make those things called.. oh what was the word? Right. Minefields.

[maradine]

So you can make those things called.. oh what was the word? Right. Minefields.

We once sowed 16 AT mines into the crop rows at Shadespire Farms. I don't think any of them ever went off, but that wasn't the point. That was our farm.

[Wahooo]

Hell I would argue that mines that can be thrown off the side of a cliff ontop of tanks is the epitome of both dumbing down and poor foresight on the dev who designed it in the first place. After all mines are supposed to be a directional charge (and before you give me that Nanites crap, the whole point of a directional charge is for better armour penetration, which something designed to damage a tank or APC would damn well need.), and it makes no sense for a directional charge that can simply be thrown out windows/offcliffs/run and throw. Im also agreeing with those that say mines should have damage signifigantly reduced, but also the amount carried should be dramatically increased. So you can make those things called.. oh what was the word? Right. Minefields.

right but these proposed changes don't address this. Only that they need a target to roll over them rather than proximity detonate on a stationary target.
You can still frisbee them off a cliff and when the tank moves it dies. THAT hasn't been solved... only the non-issue of killing the over abundant, easily replaced, otherwise hard to kill, very easily countered by mine guard with 350 certs, deployed AMS has been solved.

[Silent Thunder]

Even then you shouldn't be arguing for a return to the old system, but rather for a proper minefield system. Hell we finally managed to get the Lattice back (albiet in a slightly odd form), why not proper minefields.

[ChipMHazard]

Even then you shouldn't be arguing for a return to the old system, but rather for a proper minefield system. Hell we finally managed to get the Lattice back (albiet in a slightly odd form), why not proper minefields.

Agreed. IMO, this isn't about going back to how it worked in PS1 but to promote a change that would make actual minefields not only a possibility but a requirement for effective use of mines.

[Kerrec]

There is plenty of room in the game to add a 2nd kind of mine that allows greater numbers with reduced damage potential. There are your minefields! All without further crippling already weak defensive choices.

I am not all gung ho for deadly AV mines because I want to "farm mad certs yo!". Regardless of whether getting to a Sunderer is hard or easy, mines were the best tool for the job if the darn Sunderer didn't choose to defend against that possibility.

And I'll tell you, I've made hundreds of runs and I can't think of ONE time when I failed to kill a Sunderer with 2 mines because they bothered with Mineguard. So this whole "Mineguard is mandatory" sounds like a lot of BS to me because if it WAS as mandatory as people make it out to be, there wouldn't be so many people complaining about engineers killing Sunderers. People would instead be complaining that everything else is killing their Sunderers because they protected themselves from mines with Mineguard.

The game already gives the impression that it is better to just let the enemy take a base, then come back later and take it back. Making Sunderers stronger is only going to make defending even more worthless.

[Spiffman]

I play engineer quite often, and I use the AT mines on sunderers as often as I can. It's not a easy task most times. It depends on the placement of the sunderer, which should be deployed tactically anyhow. The fulfillment of pulling off a direct attack is far more gratifying. I also use AT mines in egress areas for potential vehicle traffic. Which most often is non productive and a waste of resources. Perhaps a slight toss delay maybe in order (not too much how else would ya mine a road in front of an armor advance an survive), but to not allow them to detonate I don't agree with. Because there is a counter defense "Mineguard". I have seen it in use and it works well even after three mines are tossed, it is effective. An if I can't manage to do it with three mines, then I have to give up armor protection to use a Utility Belt to carry a max of five AT mines, and then I'd be more squishy. Most engineers toss multiple mines down to take out a sunderer which cost resources. Three mines cost me 225 resources and if I have to use five it'll be 375 resources. If that is how I choose to use my resources I've paid for my attempt. The other thing would be if AT mines are ineffective against a parked sunderer, opponents wouldn't have to commit as much manpower for the sunderer defense. Trust me I have died very often trying to approach sunderers an during a Zerg attack it's nearly impossible. I try my best to survive attacking a Sunderer, but doubt I could if I had to toss five AT mines with no armor. An another matter is we're not light assault, we have to path, flank, an hopefully go unnoticed during our attacks. Granted if a sunderer is poorly placed where as we just have to jump off a building on top of it, come out of a teleport tube in front of it, IMO they were asking for it. You have to think about placement of your vehicle during an attack, seeking cover from rocket attacks, flying ninja infantry with C4, and even the maniac engineer looking to drop mines on ya. I roll armor quite often and have to consider these hazards so should everyone else it's apart of the game play. I don't feel that it's OP, it's a tactic. On the other hand if an argument about AT mines and engineers can be made, then bring on SMG's and Infiltrators as well they have to work the same kind of tactic to get in close quarter fights which most often I lose. This is a first time post for me but I've been following these forums often. It's my opinion on the matter and granted others with have their own an I can respect that. To the glory of battle I salute ya'll, an have fun doing so.

[Selerox]

Hopefully people will start using them defensively on roads against upcoming assaults as they did in ps1.

Pretty much the only time I mine-drop a Sundy is when I'm on the defensive. There's no need to otherwise. Sometimes it's pretty much the only way to save a small base under attack.

I'm very much of the viewpoint that if you leave a Sundy unguarded and get mine-dropped, you deserve what you get. If an engineer can make it to a Sundy undetected and mine-drop it, he deserves the XP.

I'm obviously in the minority though...

[Sturmhardt]

Isn't this discussion a little futile since it's already planned to change the mines? Let's see how it plays out and if it sucks THEN we kick and scream - how about that?

[Sonny]

Isn't this discussion a little futile since it's already planned to change the mines? Let's see how it plays out and if it sucks THEN we kick and scream - how about that?

Hi Sturmhardt,

They've already decided to change the mines but I think that a lot of people in this discussion disagree with the way that they want to change it. I think if people kick and scream enough about it now, the Devs may change their mind about the final functionality of the AT mines.

Higby's proposed solution:

Mines now only explode when driven over.

Alternative solution proposed in this thread:

Mine retain their 'proximity triggered' capability, but deployment time is expanded to 5 seconds OR arming time following deployment expanded to 15-30 seconds.

p.s. credit to SaintlyCow who first mentioned this alternative solution, page 4 in this thread

[MrVicchio]

If they are going to alter mines they need to give Rockets more oomph. I'm FINE with this change, in fact I'm ecstatic, however.... rockets need more firepower.

[Selerox]

If they are going to alter mines they need to give Rockets more oomph. I'm FINE with this change, in fact I'm ecstatic, however.... rockets need more firepower.

I don't have a problem if there's another option to allow infantry at close range to take out armour or Sundys in last-ditch situations.

Right now tank-mines allow for that. If they nerf them down to a passive drop, then something else needs to be either included or something existing needs to be improved to allow for defenders to make a last-ditch strike on vehicle targets.

[Babyfark McGeez]

I don't have a problem if there's another option to allow infantry at close range to take out armour or Sundys in last-ditch situations.

Right now tank-mines allow for that. If they nerf them down to a passive drop, then something else needs to be either included or something existing needs to be improved to allow for defenders to make a last-ditch strike on vehicle targets.

C4 (+ rocket launcher/grenade launcher) still is a surefire thing me thinks.

I'm fine with this change, generally though i'd like if we could drop...scusi deploy more mines (with less damage per mine), so that we can create real minefields.

[Roy Awesome]

I am a huge fan of this change, but as someone pointed out earlier...This kinda nerfs mines into the ground.

Mines need to be reworked/redesigned.

IMO, they should do half the damage but you should get twice the mines to place.

[Ruffdog]

Are we getting this soon or has it been pushed? Anyone know?

[Sonny]

I haven't seen any official word about this since the thread was started.

[phungus]

Horrible change of they implement this. Melee range attacks by the engineer class that killed AMSes was one of the few defensive tactics available. Sunderers are already invulnerable enough, they don't need to be even stronger.