Global Capure XP is a must if we want good metagame.

[Rothnang]

XP in this game is the primary driving force for where people go and what they do unless they run with an outfit that's doing operations that ignore XP.

That's why the region based capture XP is just a really bad system when it comes to creating a smart metagame.

Restricting the capture XP to just the region you are in is a bad system, because it creates incentives for bad behavior. For example, when a major facility is being flipped oftentimes hundreds of players just stand around waiting for it to cap, with dozens of aircraft hovering just overhead so they can get the cap too etc. That's just stupid, it makes people wait around for the reward for no good reason. If they could move on and still get the reward they would get going much quicker, which would give the defenders more of an incentive to actually stick around and make trouble.

It also punishes people for working on the fringes of their main force, which supports the Zerg gameplay. Since you miss out on a ton of XP if you work as a picket to the force that's capturing the major bases the game actively punishes you for thinking on a grander scale. For example, tonight I was on Vanu assaulting Hvar, my group of people pushed on to Indar Bay Point, and established an air defense there. We kept any Reavers and Liberators taking off from the warp gate in check and did heavy damage to them if they wanted to rush to Hvar to relieve their troops there, so we definitely helped to flip the tech plant, but of course we didn't see a single point of XP for it.


Capture XP should be less than it currently is, but it should be globally applied if you aren't in the warp gate. Sure, that would allow people to soak up some XP that they didn't work for, but it would also not so blatantly punish people for playing the bigger tactical game, taking a forward base to shield the main operation from incoming enemies, or making trouble elsewhere to disperse enemy forces away from where the main capturing is happening.

Global capture XP would allow people to leave the giant zerg and find their own trouble without missing out on all that extra XP you currently get for running with the biggest group you can find instead of doing the most useful thing you can think of.

The system could simply check if you gained XP of your own accord in the last 10 minutes and only grants global capture XP if you have, so that there isn't an incentive to just log in and sit in a remote base to soak up XP. But as far as I'm concerned, if you're fighting a hand full of enemies in some backwater base that's a hand full of enemies that didn't defend their Biolab when it flips, so why shouldn't you be rewarded?

[Rolfski]

Zergs waiting for bases to flip instead of doing the stuff that is needed is a horrible mechanic indeed that promotes the wrong game play.

Not sure if global/continental XP for capping bases is the solution to this problem though. It would probably promote wrong game play as well. I could sit all day farming at the Crown, getting all the base cap and kill XP while my team is doing the dirty work for me. Not really an incentive for objective play if you ask me.

[EvilNinjadude]

We all know this, and we all know it's horrible. Theoretically, if a major facility is half-way capped, any opposing faction could cut off influence from the cappers, and chances are the average non-outfit, non-squad player will simply stay in the base, and wait EVEN LONGER until the base flips. Because influence works that way.


We all know this on a much smaller scale. If the enemy are holding one point of three, with 50% or greater influence, and two people standing on it, how many other people in your faction will be struck with brilliance and stand on one of the remaining capture points?

Assuming the average 30-odd people defending a tower base, the answer is precisely: Zero.

Only you, and if you're lucky, one other person, will attempt to buy time or even completely deny the efforts of the enemy to cap the facility from one point.

We NEED a mechanic that rewards contributing to DIRECT facility capture/defense. Because no Zerglings are willing to retire to a control point, because heck, as long as they stick around the places where they can see enemies, they will both get kills AND capture XP. Meanwhile, you bore yourself to death at the CP.

[Rothnang]

I could sit all day farming at the Crown, getting all the base cap and kill XP while my team is doing the dirty work for me. Not really an incentive for objective play if you ask me.

Yea, but if you really think about it, isn't tying up a ton of enemies at the crown helping the other guys take that base? The whole point of global XP is to make a point out of the fact that everything that happens on a continent is interconnected. An outfit that's capturing empty bases while most of their faction is holding on for dear life on the other front would suddenly generate XP for people who are fighting harder than them also.

[Sonny]

Hi Rothnang,
I like this idea. I hate how people feel like they need to hang around doing nothing.

I like the idea that it should only apply to players who have done something to gain xp in the last ten minutes. How about we expand that rule to include those who been killed by an enemy in the last ten minutes. They're still trying even though they haven't been able to get any xp :). Also, anyone who has been in enemy territory should be included - I wouldn't want ESF pilots who are doing air patrols not to get this exp, despite the fact they haven't gained any xp in the last 10 minutes.

Do you think that capture exp bonuses should be reduced to compensate for the overall gain in xp that this would bring for everyone in the continent? So that everyone on the continent gets 1/3rd of the xp you do now every time that an enemy base is taken, or a friendly base is resecured. Otherwise, everyone's exp gain overall will probably be multiplied by 2. But maybe that's a good thing :).

Sonny

[EvilNinjadude]

Sonny's proposal
So basically, you get X% of Capture XP if, within the last 10 mins, you've:
-Killed someone
-Gotten killed
-Entered enemy territory
-Gained repair XP (Discuss.)

And by the way, if by "resecuring" you mean actually flipping a base that has been fully captured, then yes, that is a standard capture. No complete flip= No XP.

[ringring]

So basically, you get X% of Capture XP if, within the last 10 mins, you've:
-Killed someone
-Gotten killed
-Entered enemy territory
-Gained repair XP (Discuss.)

And by the way, if by "resecuring" you mean actually flipping a base that has been fully captured, then yes, that is a standard capture. No complete flip= No XP.

Well a resecure means reversing a capture that is in progress, it's important to do that. It would be possible to have control of a base, allow a base capture to complete and then move in and recapture it, but that would be perverse and not something I'd like to see.

@op your first sentance encapsulates one of the problems with this game. What incentive is there to continue playing after you have everything you want? PS1 managed to provide an incentive so we know pure XP isn't the only motive out there.

[Sonny]

So basically, you get X% of Capture XP if, within the last 10 mins, you've:
-Killed someone
-Gotten killed
-Entered enemy territory
-Gained repair XP (Discuss.)


Aye, pretty much that.

In terms of resecuring xp - i want to see xp bonuses if you resecure a base from the enemy that is still yours when you resecure. The idea for this is to stop defenders waiting for the attacker to take a base then move out before retaking it. But I guess that's a discussion for a separate thread :).

Sonny

[Electrofreak]

I've been saying for a long time that the current base static XP reward system needs to be redone. See the thread in my signature; at least the Devs listened to our requests for dynamic kill XP, but I feel that dynamic base capture XP, similar to how it was implemented in PS1, is very important.

I'm not sure I agree with Global capture XP, but I do agree the current system needs to go. It only provides incentive for everyone to rush to the next base that's about to be captured instead of investing in a battle because you've generated a lot of capture XP potential fighting there.

[Tamyrlin]

Ohh god yes! So frustrating seeing a offensive come to a grinding halt for 5 min to wait for 250xp.

[Badjuju]

I wouldnt want too much xp tied to cont capping. I would worry that we will end up with a different faction with a massive pop on every cont as people want to as easy cont. cap for xp instead of defending territory.

Truly owning conts and kicking factions off continents was more than motivating in PS1, and a much healthier motivation IMO. Maybe tie some XP in but I wouldnt like to see allot. It would have to be tied to how long its been since you owned the cont last, increasing the longer its been.

[Neutral Calypso]

Wait and see how the lattice will work.

[Blynd]

tbh what would benefit us all more is decent xp for defending and actually making a fight of each base rather then letting it get flipped so you can flip it back and get the xp after why not just give the xp for preventing the flip in the first place

[Babyfark McGeez]

Experience/Cert gain AND resource gain should be global.

Just like in a RTS game.

That way the game would become more focused on how your faction performs rather than how you perform yourself.

EDIT: For example, i wouldn't feel the urge to go out of my way just to "cash in" on a cap in progress. I would rather do what i originally planned to do, probably being more helpful to my faction than standing around for a handful of certs.

[psijaka]

Agree that hanging around waiting for capture just for the XP is a lame mechanic.

A global XP gain upon capture would be better than what we have now, but there are alternatives:

- Passive global XP reward/minute based upon how much territory is held by your faction. This could include other continents (perhaps less), and could include a bonus multiplier for fully captured continents.

- Dynamic XP based bonus upon capture. Award a bonus of say 20% of the XP you earned within the hex region during the capture, irrespective of whether they move on before the base flips. A similar bonus could be awarded upon completion of a defence!

But any of these would be preferable to what we have now.

[Snipefrag]

Totally agree, it should be similar to PS1. When you capture a base you gain a percentage of the total XP based available for the cap based on how long you fought in the base's (and satilite territory) Hexes. I have a good question which it would be nice for a dev to answer... If this is how the new hex 'lattice' system is going to work:

Standardizing capture times - influence and # of players on the control point will no longer cause the capture time to fluxuate

and:

Making facilities which are under capture contention no longer provide adjacency for capturing other territories. If you are playing TR and own Xenotech Labs but it is being captured by the NC, you will not be able to use it's connection to to Crossroads to begin capturing Crossroads until you've secured Xenotech.

Then are we back to what we had in PS1? where someone runs into the base and pushes a button (or hacks a terminal) and the countdown begins? The base is then 'in contention' until the defending empire 'unpushes the button'?

Personally i REALLY hope so. That way its a balancing act between how many people the defending empire leaves behind after taking a base, gives galaxy drops some tactical relevance, improves the meta game, gives another use for cloaking/hacking and potentially opening up a new play style for infiltrators.

[KodanBlack]

I like the idea of a passive global XP gain. It seems that it would make the entire faction want to take and HOLD more territory. There could bet actual full width fronts where each faction is not only trying to push into enemy territory, but resist enemy units from encroaching on theirs. The map would still be able to stay open and more free flowing, unlike the proposed lattice system, I would think.

Maneuver warfare strategies, like reconnaissance pulls, would become viable. Which would make small outfits (like mine) be more viable on the battlefield as they begin to find the weak spots in their enemy's lines, tear apart or harass enemy movements behind their lines, etc.

I'd suggest a rework of the resource system as well. Something that can be disrupted, or broken by enemy forces.

I'd like to see something like this implemented, at least to see how it plays out.

[EvilNinjadude]

We'd have to wait with all this until the continent lock mechanic rolls in. And maybe Sanctuaries as well. Because otherwise, let's face it, there'd be three frontiers, and if people aren't punished for mass abandoning one they're just gonna do it. Because if there's no incentive, no one will.

That's what makes "Territory held on current continent" such a controversial Idea: It discourages expanding past the current continent (as was mentioned in a post on the previous page). However if by global you mean across ALL continents, once continent locking IS implemented: All my yes. All of it.

[Qwan]

I feel ya on this one, there is a issue with the zerg sitting around waiting for the cap when they could be taking the next spot. But for now its the way the game xp system is set up. If your not in the Hex zone when it flips you dont get paid. Not to metion I feel ya when you say that groups that capture some key points to help with the capping of a larger base should get paid to. For example to cap a base faster my outfit will sometimes cap smaller bases that are connected to the larger, one cutting off the enemies ability to get back into the fight, and two speeding up the larger cap. We have to hustle after caping the smaller bases to get to the larger one to get that XP as well. Sometimes we make it sometimes we dont. Now I dont want to sound like a PS1 vet (though I am), but the xp system was pretty good. If you just got to the base right when it caped you got little to no xp, were if you fought from beginning to end, you got paid in full. I can recall some major battles at hossin were we would fight for hours, and when we finally caped it, you would practically go up a battle rank. Anyway back to PS2, I really can't think of a quick fix, but global xp payouts I dont think would work, maybe a small xp pay out to ajoining hexes would be ok. :groovy: Im just saying its somthing.

[EvilNinjadude]

Not to mention the fact that sometimes I see the "Facility captured: Facility X" message while inside the actual territory AS IF I was outside. And I don't get the XP gain either.

And this, people is what makes people clump up near the enemy spawn room when capping. Not on the point, oh no, never on the point. But always where they are needed least.

MAKE STANDING ON POINT REWARDING, SOE. PLEASE.

[Rothnang]

Yea, there should be specific cap XP that you get by being near the point as well. Maybe you'd get 10 XP every 10 seconds you're on point or something like that.

That would move people away from the spawn rooms and more toward the consoles, which is how it should be. It's of course not anywhere near as good a solution as giving bases more spawn locations, but meh, it's a start.

[Brusi]

Dynamic XP for base caps that doesn't give you very much XP for capturing empty bases is start.

Also, why do they have to sit around doing nothing? The reason they are is that It is almost impossible to launch a defensive re-secure, once the attackers have taken down the SCU and often even before that point, considering how unbalanced the numbers of defenders usually are, compared to attackers.

[EvilNinjadude]

Dynamic XP for base caps that doesn't give you very much XP for capturing empty bases is start.

Also, why do they have to sit around doing nothing? The reason they are is that It is almost impossible to launch a defensive re-secure, once the attackers have taken down the SCU and often even before that point, considering how unbalanced the numbers of defenders usually are, compared to attackers.

That's right. It's also one of the things the devs said they wanted to address with the new quasi-lattice system, since making the flow of the battle more linear would allow a better overview of the paths an enemy could easily take. So instead of going to "Another base worth defending" when their facility is lost, the defenders will fall back to the next base down the line, if they have any sense whatsoever.
I would encourage the devs to make this next facility VERY OBVIOUS on the respawn/map screen when someone dies in a recently lost facility. Maybe put in a giant FOLLOW THE FIGHT button? [/humor]

We gotta keep this thread alive somewhere until that update is out, then reopen it to discuss if and how the ideas and issues in this thread have been addressed.

[ringring]

If the only thng we can thing of to encourage a meta game is an xp award then perhaps we shouldn't bother at all.

This game needs a campaign mode.

[Rothnang]

XP is going to be a driving force in the game no matter what you do. The way that XP is given out is going to define how people play. There are some outfits which ignore where the most XP is and genuinely focus on map control, but even most outfits will go where they can get XP.

There is nothing wrong with making people follow the XP to direct the flow of the game either, it's just that it needs to be awarded in such a way that it doesn't reward people for doing things that are counterproductive to the overall game. Currently there is simply no incentive not to pile into a Biolab or Amp Station and create a broader front instead because that's where the XP is.