View Full Version : Cloakers need to bea ble to shoot cloaked!
Ait'al
2013-03-18, 09:18 PM
Not being able to shoot at all in cloak and having a timer to shoot after decloaking is as lethal a thing to cloakers as possible. I just makes anything but cloaking while sniping pointless....
They need to allow shooting to deactivate cloaking. They already have the delay to recloak so there is a balance. But having to decloak then waiting 2 seconds to fire your underpowered gun they gave you because you are not armored and giving everything time to kill you before you can fire is rediculous. ther are too many penalties to cloaking.
All it needs is a decloak on fire ability and on timer to shoot on decloaking.....
If anything make it a new type of cloak. though I would prefer it were default on all cloaking devices unless there is a reason not to on a specific cloaking device.
Mastachief
2013-03-18, 09:29 PM
No. Be happy with SMG, infils are for sneaky sneaky not ironmanning.
I'd be open to perma cloaks with weaker pistols able to fire while cloaked ala ps1.
bpostal
2013-03-18, 09:31 PM
I could see allowing cloak to auto-disengage upon firing, but not firing while cloaked.
Besides, the SMGs are pretty beast. The VS one especially. Much better than that shotfiltrator debacle.
Infils are at heart a support class, they're not really made for combat.
Saintlycow
2013-03-18, 09:37 PM
We need an auto disengage from cloak. I can't count the times where the game lags, so I end up double pressing the button, and it decides to wait 5 seconds to uncloak, then recloak before I can shoot.
Lag issues make it necessary for an auto uncloak
Palerion
2013-03-18, 09:37 PM
Love when people say a class is not made for combat. The way I see it, if a class isn't bringing something to the table combat-wise, remove it. But infiltrators are actually primarily combat classes. Sneaky combat, but combat nevertheless.
bpostal
2013-03-18, 09:43 PM
Allow me to rephrase then: They're not front line combatants. Any infil you see running dick first into the fray is going to die. Quickly and painfully (one can hope).
Ait'al
2013-03-18, 09:47 PM
You all realize fire and disengage is the topic. 8) I just labeled it fire while cloaked. Then expanded on which version in the OP. You technically fire the first shot cloaked.
bpostal
2013-03-18, 09:52 PM
The title is misleading, but I think we're all on the same page as to the topic itself.
Ait'al
2013-03-18, 09:52 PM
The title is misleading, but I think we're all on the same page as to the topic itself.
Seems so.
Ghoest9
2013-03-18, 10:02 PM
When the game is laggy like this - yes it would work better if firing automaticaly disengaged the cloak.
Electrofreak
2013-03-18, 11:59 PM
It is kind of a pain trying to get the cloak to drop so you can open fire, but that said, I don't feel the cloak should drop instantly. Your target does need an opportunity to react.
http://1.media.todaysbigthing.cvcdn.com/60/34/ee9073fc50c7b0f472ded37f92b23807.gif
Silent Thunder
2013-03-19, 12:45 AM
Really need to change that title if possible, its very misleading to what you actually mean.
MaxDamage
2013-03-19, 01:14 AM
Cloakers with SMG = mental.
Riekopo
2013-03-19, 04:17 AM
It's really weird that shooting doesn't disengage the cloak.
Gatekeeper
2013-03-19, 05:24 AM
Yeah, pressing the fire button should drop your cloak and then fire. It's not rocket-science, it's basic user-interface design: why force the user to make an additional, redundant button-press when their intent is clear?
As it stands it's just a feature that makes Infiltrators that much harder for new players to adapt to, without actually adding any depth or skill.
Snipefrag
2013-03-19, 05:31 AM
I agree that fire should drop you out of cloak, its really clunky at the moment.. For no particular reason.
ChipMHazard
2013-03-19, 08:09 AM
I don't have a problem with the first round fired taking you out of cloak. I agree with Snipe, the current system is clunky.
Figment
2013-03-19, 08:31 AM
No. Be happy with SMG, infils are for sneaky sneaky not ironmanning.
I'd be open to perma cloaks with weaker pistols able to fire while cloaked ala ps1.
Pretty much this. I wouldn't mind an automatic decloak for snipers and SMG users though, with equal delay (having to press multiple buttons and taking a finger off of the movement button is a bit of an unnecessary hassle).
(Still, I'd much rather not see sniper rifles or SMGs on supposed infils in the first place).
Dragonskin
2013-03-19, 08:44 AM
Pretty much this. I wouldn't mind an automatic decloak for snipers and SMG users though, with equal delay (having to press multiple buttons and taking a finger off of the movement button is a bit of an unnecessary hassle).
(Still, I'd much rather not see sniper rifles or SMGs on supposed infils in the first place).
K, I know you want the old school infiltrators back. So assuming they do change infiltrators then they would have SMGs and sniper rifles that need a new class or existing class for a home. Where do those go? Do you make a new class?
As much as I like the class system in Planetside 2... I do sometimes wish you had to make conscious choices of what abilities and gear you had because you had a limited amount of points you were able to spend to unlock you kit/abilities. It made for more unique setups and players running builds that were game play specific in MAG... since I don't have PS1 as a refferance. I liked MAG's setup a lot. Inventory space and limited skill points to unlock weapons/abilities.
Satanam
2013-03-19, 08:48 AM
I just can't understand how people find it hard to cloak in a place where you're in cover. It's not made to uncloak when you're almost inside your enemy, not made to start shooting right after uncloaked. You need to go cloaked, check your enemy positions and possible ways you'd success at killing them without being raped by their allies, get a cover, uncloak and then start shooting.
That's what I do, and that's how you infiltrate enemy bases to start hacking their terminals and turrets. And, yes, it works.
Figment
2013-03-19, 09:34 AM
K, I know you want the old school infiltrators back. So assuming they do change infiltrators then they would have SMGs and sniper rifles that need a new class or existing class for a home. Where do those go? Do you make a new class?
Why would you need new classes? First off, SMGs are already being used by numerous classes. Second, I don't see what's wrong with a HA, medic, engi or even LA using a sniper rifle.
They'd be less powerful than people who can aim while cloaked.
As much as I like the class system in Planetside 2... I do sometimes wish you had to make conscious choices of what abilities and gear you had because you had a limited amount of points you were able to spend to unlock you kit/abilities. It made for more unique setups and players running builds that were game play specific in MAG... since I don't have PS1 as a refferance. I liked MAG's setup a lot. Inventory space and limited skill points to unlock weapons/abilities.
That pretty much describes what PS1 did.
Hamma
2013-03-19, 09:37 AM
While the selfish side of me says this is an excellent idea the logical side says no. :lol:
I'm able to do plenty of damage with my cloaker with no ability to shoot when cloaked.
VaderShake
2013-03-19, 09:51 AM
First off is it really that hard to uncloak and shoot? I have never had a problem with it.
Also I don't think shooting while cloaked is the way to go.......now using upclose Infiltrator specific melee weapons while cloaked I could understand......Fiber Wire Choke Cord anyone? High risk upclose silent option...
Hamma
2013-03-19, 09:55 AM
I've never had issues with uncloaking and shooting quickly then cloaking again.
coconut
2013-03-19, 10:17 AM
I love playing as sniper from time to time, and I'm against the suggestion that firing should automatically uncloak you.
Keep in mind uncloaking isn't immediate, and the suggested mechanism would result in a delayed shot, unless uncloaking is made immediate or shooting while uncloaking is allowed. Both these changes would give snipers and infiltrators more power, which is not going to go down well with the victims. As others have pointed out, infiltrators and snipers can already deal a whole lot of damage with cloaking as it is now.
Currently, in sniper fights, you have the choice of being stealthy and slow-shooting or exposed and fast-shooting. Both strategies can work, but introducing auto-uncloak would make the latter worthless.
In this case, I don't think the added convenience is worth the cost of removing tactical complexity.
VaderShake
2013-03-19, 10:18 AM
I love playing as sniper from time to time, and I'm against the suggestion that firing should automatically uncloak you.
Keep in mind uncloaking isn't immediate, and the suggested mechanism would result in a delayed shot, unless uncloaking is made immediate or shooting while uncloaking. Both these changes would give snipers and infiltrators more power, which is not going to go down well with the victims. As others have pointed out, infiltrators and snipers can already deal a whole lot of damage with cloaking as it is now.
Currently, in sniper fights, you have the choice of being stealthy and slow-shooting or exposed and fast-shooting. Both strategies can work, but introducing auto-uncloak would make the latter worthless.
In this case, I don't think the added convenience is worth the cost of removing tactical complexity.
Even the Coconut here see's the common sense....
Canaris
2013-03-19, 10:35 AM
nope
Dragonskin
2013-03-19, 10:37 AM
I think it's a needed change. Infiltrators will love it. An alpha strike that they can immediately press cloak to hide again? Why wouldn't an infiltrator want that? To add to that lets give them shotgun access again so they can get pump shotguns that decloak them when they shoot too. Maybe even give infiltrators special silencers option for their pump shotgun to throw a little COD gameplay in.
Better yet, why don't we just keep cloak so that you can shoot while in cloak with specific weapons? You know that crossbow they are teasing... that's IT! Also make sure the crossbows have multiple ammo types that can be certed or possibly even equiped at the same time so you can have different ammo options for different situations on the fly. Just press B to change ammo types instead of selecting the fire option on a gun. Then we can have Crysis 3 game play in Plantside 2. That would be AMAZING!
/end sarcasm... felt this needed to be added incase people didn't catch on.
Gatekeeper
2013-03-19, 11:24 AM
Strange to see so much opposition to a simple change. As I understand it, all that's being suggested is that clicking your left mouse button would press F for you. What's the problem here? Will making the Infiltrator easier for new players to cope with somehow eat into your hard-won skills? ;)
So yeah, don't change the balance. Don't remove the delay between de-cloaking and firing - just queue up that first shot for when the cloak is gone, and take it as read that the player meant to press F but forgot.
I know a lot of people who post here are very experienced players who find it hard to remember what a steep learning curve this game has, but issues like this do put new players off. Anything that makes the game smoother and more intuitive to play is a good thing, and being elitist about how easy you find it after spending days in game is not a good counter-argument.
Figment
2013-03-19, 11:27 AM
I love playing as sniper from time to time, and I'm against the suggestion that firing should automatically uncloak you.
Keep in mind uncloaking isn't immediate, and the suggested mechanism would result in a delayed shot, unless uncloaking is made immediate or shooting while uncloaking is allowed. Both these changes would give snipers and infiltrators more power, which is not going to go down well with the victims. As others have pointed out, infiltrators and snipers can already deal a whole lot of damage with cloaking as it is now.
Currently, in sniper fights, you have the choice of being stealthy and slow-shooting or exposed and fast-shooting. Both strategies can work, but introducing auto-uncloak would make the latter worthless.
In this case, I don't think the added convenience is worth the cost of removing tactical complexity.
Question: what's the difference between pressing 'F' and left clicking the mouse button to cause a decloak and fire at the moment you're allowed to (ie. full decloak)?
Answer: nothing.
If it's a request to have your first shot with a main gun while cloaked, then no.
PS1 pistols were fine because they weren't powerful and you were quite visible (even if still partially cloaked) while firing. SMGs and Snipers should never be fired from a cloaked capacity. Those weapons are simply too powerful for that.
Sadly, I'm not so sure the current Repeater has a slow enough TTK to warrant it though.
PredatorFour
2013-03-19, 11:31 AM
I think they need to introduce a new cloak suit. One that only allows you to carry a pistol but has unlimited cloak. You could also carry mines too.
VaderShake
2013-03-19, 11:41 AM
Question: what's the difference between pressing 'F' and left clicking the mouse button to cause a decloak and fire at the moment you're allowed to (ie. full decloak)?
Answer: nothing.
The difference is if while your taking a second for the de-cloak process to end you can change your mind about pulling the trigger. If it's an auto-process you can't.
Gatekeeper
2013-03-19, 11:44 AM
The difference is if while your taking a second for the de-cloak process to end you can change your mind about pulling the trigger. If it's an auto-process you can't.
I don't understand how giving people the *option* to drop their cloak simply by firing would remove any tactical options from people who chose to manually drop it by pressing F instead.
Seriously, this is a tiny change with no downside that would just make it easier/more fun for players who are new to the Infiltrator class.
Rahabib
2013-03-19, 11:48 AM
Not being able to shoot at all in cloak and having a timer to shoot after decloaking is as lethal a thing to cloakers as possible. I just makes anything but cloaking while sniping pointless....
They need to allow shooting to deactivate cloaking. They already have the delay to recloak so there is a balance. But having to decloak then waiting 2 seconds to fire your underpowered gun they gave you because you are not armored and giving everything time to kill you before you can fire is rediculous. ther are too many penalties to cloaking.
All it needs is a decloak on fire ability and on timer to shoot on decloaking.....
If anything make it a new type of cloak. though I would prefer it were default on all cloaking devices unless there is a reason not to on a specific cloaking device.
I like the timer, it gives you a second to react when you hear the whoosh.
Dragonskin
2013-03-19, 11:49 AM
I don't understand how giving people the *option* to drop their cloak simply by firing would remove any tactical options from people who chose to manually drop it by pressing F instead.
Seriously, this is a tiny change with no downside that would just make it easier/more fun for players who are new to the Infiltrator class.
If you mean that you want it changed so that the gun firing decloaks you then it's not a simple change. That is a cloaked shot and is exactly why they don't allow you to shoot while cloaked to begin with.
I don't understand the steep learning curve. Press F to decloak, fire with left mouse, press f to re-cloak. How could that be steep at all? Infiltrators don't need an alpha strike from cloak ability.
Gatekeeper
2013-03-19, 12:00 PM
If you mean that you want it changed so that the gun firing decloaks you then it's not a simple change. That is a cloaked shot and is exactly why they don't allow you to shoot while cloaked to begin with.
I don't understand the steep learning curve. Press F to decloak, fire with left mouse, press f to re-cloak. How could that be steep at all? Infiltrators don't need an alpha strike from cloak ability.
Nope, that's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that when you're cloaked, if you press fire then the normal decloaking process begins automatically - and when that's done (just as if you'd pressed F instead of fire) then you'd fire the actual shot automatically.
Basically nothing more than replacing 'press F, then press fire' with 'press fire'. No gameplay changes, just convenience. And if you like to press F to decloak, fine, keep that too. People can use whichever method they prefer.
I'm not suggesting that pressing F to decloak is some giant mystery that new players can't cope with - but I am suggesting that it's counter-intuitive that pressing fire does *nothing* if you're cloaked.
In my (admittedly limited) experience, new players often see an opportunity when cloaked, instinctively press fire, nothing happens, they press F, they decloak but it's too late, they get killed and then they get annoyed at how clunky the game's controls are.
When it's such a small change, why not just fix it and avoid that situation? Anything that removes frustration from the game is a good thing.
Figment
2013-03-19, 12:05 PM
The difference is if while your taking a second for the de-cloak process to end you can change your mind about pulling the trigger. If it's an auto-process you can't.
So? Don't auto-process but press F.
You would continue to have both options you know.
Stardouser
2013-03-19, 12:31 PM
Allow firing to initiate decloak and make cloaking more instant. I recognize the need for this even as a light assault player, but no, we don't need to fire while cloaked.
The infi should also being able to shit SC and and cloak his mbt.
/irony off
OP stop posting stupid suggestions like this!
Dragonskin
2013-03-19, 01:20 PM
The infi should also being able to shit SC and and cloak his mbt.
/irony off
OP stop posting stupid suggestions like this!
Actually you bring up a good point... indirectly. Until GU04 infiltrators couldn't cloak flashs equiped with furies/renegades. So if this is a needed function added to infiltrators for their weapons... is this going then be a "needed" function for flashes with wraith modules?
Satanam
2013-03-19, 01:35 PM
I love how Infiltrators are getting even better with the last updates and they still complain about it. I mean, you can now just get to your Flash, cloak, hide it behind a tree or something, uncloak, kill enemies with your SMG, get back to the Flash, cloak and go away. I'd say SMG and the ability to cloak a fast vehicle would be enough if I was an Infiltrator fan. You can just use the Flash to get on a spot and start sniping too. Then leave it covered when you need to go away when enemies notice where you are.
ringring
2013-03-19, 02:00 PM
In actual fact cloaker are seriously OP with SMG's. Remove them.
Is this game only about frags? Don't answer that. Should this game be only about kills?
bpostal
2013-03-19, 02:38 PM
Nope, that's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that when you're cloaked, if you press fire then the normal decloaking process begins automatically - and when that's done (just as if you'd pressed F instead of fire) then you'd fire the actual shot automatically.
...
That's how I interpreted it. Actually firing off a shot from cloak would be a major no no IMO.
psijaka
2013-03-19, 04:51 PM
It is kind of a pain trying to get the cloak to drop so you can open fire, but that said, I don't feel the cloak should drop instantly. Your target does need an opportunity to react.
^ this
Being able to decloak and shoot by squeezing the trigger would be way unfair. Infil + SMG is beast as it is :D
SixShooter
2013-03-19, 05:02 PM
Not being able to shoot while cloaked is fine but why the hell are you not able to hack while cloaked???
Figment
2013-03-19, 05:08 PM
The only difference between now and the new situation is that F frequently fails to activate/deactivate any special ability while running and therefore is not a skill, but an unintended liability and unnecessary hassle.
In fact, there's no reason why an infil couldn't be tasked to double mouse click to fire (once to decloak, once to fire). There would be no difference, at all, with pressing F once then firing. Both are two clicks, just less chance of pressing the wrong button (not a balancing tool!) and allowing to use the D movement key with more ease while decloaking, so basically a fix to a flaw in button design.
There's no difference to whether I would snipe and aim cloak, but first decloak then press the button as soon as the cloak is fully deactivated (in fact, you can even hold the button for that moment as it's simply holding the trigger), or if I'd snipe, but first decloak and fire as soon as the cloak is fully deactivated.
There's no identifiable gap in time between the two solutions.
In fact, if you change your mind, then it becomes a liability since you give away your presence, does it not? So all in all, there's no argument here against firing upon decloaking.
The problem here is with the people that think you'd fire while cloaked with a heavier weapon (again, a weapon that shouldn't be in the hands of an infil in the first place, as I've always maintained). Firing pistols without fully decloaking and partial decloak upon using a tool or pistol is entirely okay, just as long as the TTK is long enough for a person to react to it.
Nobody had problems with infiltrators in PS1. Anyone pretending somehow it would be now in ANY situation is completely ignorant. What you need is the appropriate conditions within which this is a fair mechanism:
* Low firepower / killing power
* Sufficient visibility to trace the infil
* A swifter TTK than the infil
* Enough time within the TTK of the infil to turn around and return fire
* Tools to locate a perma-cloaked infiltrator
Those conditions must be met, then everything is fine. It could be so that certain scopes like night vision and thermal can pick up on cloakers within 15-25m (just like Dark Light did - of course Dark Light was temporary due to the heavy stamina drain, unless in a vehicle, where scoping is unlimited).
SGTHACK
2013-03-19, 05:12 PM
As long as all of the classes get to cloak. Wouldn't that be scary...OOOOOO Lions, Tigers, and Bears OH MY!
coconut
2013-03-20, 03:51 AM
Question: what's the difference between pressing 'F' and left clicking the mouse button to cause a decloak and fire at the moment you're allowed to (ie. full decloak)?
Answer: nothing.
If it's a request to have your first shot with a main gun while cloaked, then no.
PS1 pistols were fine because they weren't powerful and you were quite visible (even if still partially cloaked) while firing. SMGs and Snipers should never be fired from a cloaked capacity. Those weapons are simply too powerful for that.
Sadly, I'm not so sure the current Repeater has a slow enough TTK to warrant it though.
I think I agree. Auto-uncloak for snipers would be useless to me and I would prefer to uncloak manually. I want my precision shots to go when I click, not half a second later. That's enough to miss.
For pistols, I'm on the fence. The added convenience is welcome, and targets get a chance to kill me anyway with their more powerful guns. It's still changes the balance, and I don't like that. Especially considering there are big differences between pistols of the different factions. NC would get a big advantage compared to VS. If the upcoming NS revolvers have a lower TTK, then I think it's a no-go for auto-uncloak.
Maybe it would be even OK to fire cloaked with really slow weapons. Crysis 3 has it, I haven't played the game but I haven't seen complaints that it's OP. Maybe that's what the upcoming crossbow in PS2 is about?
I have myself fumbled my uncloaking many times, and I can understand the request for better usability. In my case, I think the problem is that I can't see if I'm cloaked while I'm aiming down the scope of a sniper rifle (I play with the classic UI). I central UI indicator showing if I'm cloaked or not would help. That, or I could just get used to the centered UI.
Sturmhardt
2013-03-20, 05:13 AM
Edit: Never mind, I don't care.
.sent via phone.
Hamma
2013-03-20, 10:17 AM
Hacking while cloaked I could see, but doesn't make a difference one way or another. In my next Instant Action video I recorded nothing but infiltrator SMG.. no issues not being able to shoot while cloaked.
psijaka
2013-03-20, 04:21 PM
Not being able to shoot while cloaked is fine but why the hell are you not able to hack while cloaked???
Don't agree with cloaked hacking either; where is the risk?
Silent Thunder
2013-03-20, 04:24 PM
Don't agree with cloaked hacking either; where is the risk?
In all honesty I'd be laughing at a cloaked hacker, the lightning effects on Generators really distort in the cloak's bubblewrapping. Terminals would probably be the same too.
Figment
2013-03-20, 07:38 PM
Don't agree with cloaked hacking either; where is the risk?
Semi-cloaked hacking has a lot of risk, provided there's people in the area.
Of course, PS1 had a REK which made noise and showed a light beam. PS2 just has you standing about silently.
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