Four Things that Are Killing ESF Combat

[Quadron]

The FOUR Things That Are Killing ESF Combat

http://youtu.be/K9bDRq0heKw


1) Vehicle deconstruction is the stupidest mechanic in the game right now. The point of playing a FPS like PS2 is to have fun KILLing the enemy. If an enemy can just decon their ESF/Galaxy/Liberator/Sunderer/tank, not only does that not give me the kill credit, it also robs me of any of the xp for the vehicle kill or kills on the crew piloting that vehicle. This is a huge chunk of XP lost. For example, when killing a liberator crew of three people who have all been up for a while, it means losing out on 950 xp for the lib kill, 1500 xp for three extreme menance kills, for a total loss of around 2500 xp, which is equal in XP value to capping 2 bio labs + a small base. A mechanic like this is game breaking. Fixing this should be top priority if SOE wants to keep ESF pilots playing this game.

2) A second game breaking mechanic currently is how vehicle Assist kill XP works. The problem is that it is a tiny fraction of the amount of Kill XP overall. With my membership boost, killing an ESF + Pilot is equal = 800 for the ESF and 150 for the pilot. First of all, assist XP should be higher for when someone from the same empire gets the kill. Assists should be worth half of the kill XP for the vehicle AND the pilot. Second, if someone in an ESF decides to crash into the ground on purpose to deny xp, the kill credit needs to be awarded to the player who last did damage to him. This fix also needs to be a priority to keep ESF pilots playing.

3) Pilots should not be able to bail out of their planes to their deaths to deny XP. The last player should get the kill credit for forcing them to bail to their deaths.

4) Finally, there a couple objects on the map that do not render quickly enough when traveling at high speeds. If you are a full time ESF pilot, you have probably had this happen to you several times. You are in a great dogfight get an kill and then try to get to safety. You afterburner away and are just coming around a watch tower when BLAM! You just explode for no reason. A millisecond later an ammo tower renders and you realize that you just ran into it without it even rendering on your screen. It’s one of the most frustrating deaths possible in the game right now and needs to get fixed ASAP. Keep in mind that the same issue exists for the giant satilette dishes you see on top of some buildings, as those do not render quickly enough when using afterburner either.

Agree/disagree why/why not?

Cheers!

Q

[p0intman]

the ps1 solution to the first and third is that you cannot eject/decon after a certain amount of damage is delt, forcing you to land and manually repair


but no, ps1 solutions are bad. not battlefield-y enough.

[ChipMHazard]

I completely agree with the first 3 points. I've never experienced the last point, has that issue always been there?

1) Add in a timer so that you will only be able to decon it after having landed and after a set amount of time has passed.
2) Agreed. Besides just awarding ESF pilots more it should also award pilots/drivers more whenever their gunners kill an enemy.
3) Disallow bailing while the aircraft is in motion, except when using the ejection seat.

Oh and expect Jennyboo to come in and rant a bit about the third point, if we're lucky:p

[bpostal]

the ps1 solution to the first and third is that you cannot eject/decon after a certain amount of damage is delt, forcing you to land and manually repair


but no, ps1 solutions are bad. not battlefield-y enough.

IIRC there was a speed limit as well. I think you had to be going slower than 37kph to land.

All in all, I agree with your points although I have not personally experienced hitting something that wasn't rendered yet. Guess I don't go fast enough.

You can call me a shit pilot all day (because I am) but at least when you take me out I don't decon.
Although I do crash into shit trying to get away.

TLDR: Nerf trees.

[CraazyCanuck]

1.) - Agreed. I use it as well now out of spite as it seems to be the norm. The timer needs to increase to double/triple what it is now and also they should make it so a vehicle can only be diconned while the pilot is present in the vehicle and while not taking damage. A portion of resources based on the health of the vehicle should be recovered as well.

2.) Agreed.

3.) Agreed. I too have experienced this.

[CzuukWaterson]

The FOUR Things That Are Killing ESF Combat

http://youtu.be/K9bDRq0heKw


1) Vehicle deconstruction is the stupidest mechanic in the game right now.


Burn them faster. ;) It is a little bit silly though.



2) A second game breaking mechanic currently is how vehicle Assist kill XP works.



I wouldn't call this game breaking. It could use a tweak. But it looks like only 3 people can get XP per kill. The kill shot, and two assists.


3) Pilots should not be able to bail out of their planes to their deaths to deny XP. The last player should get the kill credit for forcing them to bail to their deaths.


Agreed. If you bail, you should give points to somebody for the suicide.


4) Finally, there a couple objects on the map that do not render quickly enough when traveling at high speeds.


Render distance will continue to be a problem. Fly more erratically. Less straight lines. Give time for stuff to load. Not optimal, but it's the best we can do right now.

[Rothnang]

For me what breaks ESF combat is the fact that ESFs are the best air to air vehicle in any configuration. The fact that you can put rocketpods and a rotary gun on the same fighter pretty much makes anyone who goes "But the Liberator is a bomber" to justify why ESFs can shoot one down so easily just look like a really disingenuous douchenozzle.

Also the airhammer is completely out of control. That thing does way too much damage to aircraft and low range is NOT a justification for a weapon that has 3 times better TTK than any other weapon in the same class.

[Ruffdog]

Point 3 for tank drivers too. The twats that e, pagedown, decon and anti-veh mine you when you've beaten them black and blue in a "tank fight".

My wishes:
*No bail from a veh past 60% damage
*Deconstuct should take 10 seconds

[CzuukWaterson]

For me what breaks ESF combat is the fact that ESFs are the best air to air vehicle in any configuration. The fact that you can put rocketpods and a rotary gun on the same fighter pretty much makes anyone who goes "But the Liberator is a bomber" to justify why ESFs can shoot one down so easily just look like a really disingenuous douchenozzle.

Also the airhammer is completely out of control. That thing does way too much damage to aircraft and low range is NOT a justification for a weapon that has 3 times better TTK than any other weapon in the same class.

Huhwhhhhaaaaaaaa?

[Hamma]

Agreed on all points. For what it's worth Higby mentioned to me at MLG that they are planning on changing deconstruction in some way.

[Ghoest9]

Ya points 1-3 seem like no brainers.

Point 4 is something I cant remember seeing happen.

[Silent Thunder]

Point 4 seems more like a clientside problem really, perhaps a memory load issue?

[Hamma]

I've seen problem #4 many times and it's almost always with ammo towers or antennas. I've got pretty cranked graphics settings and I still see it.

[bpostal]

...

Also the airhammer is completely out of control. That thing does way too much damage to aircraft and low range is NOT a justification for a weapon that has 3 times better TTK than any other weapon in the same class.

Not sure on what exactly the airhammer is, but for the last sentence...Hacksaw's say hello.

[Rothnang]

Not sure on what exactly the airhammer is, but for the last sentence...Hacksaw's say hello.

http://wiki.planetside-universe.com/ps/M30_Mustang_AH

It's basically a hacksaw you can strap to an ESF. And yes, it's just as overpowered and stupid because the devs seem to overestimate the advantage of range by an absurd amount. Especially on the fastest vehicle type in the game.

[Quadron]

http://wiki.planetside-universe.com/ps/M30_Mustang_AH

It's basically a hacksaw you can strap to an ESF. And yes, it's just as overpowered and stupid because the devs seem to overestimate the advantage of range by an absurd amount. Especially on the fastest vehicle type in the game.



Also the airhammer is completely out of control. That thing does way too much damage to aircraft and low range is NOT a justification for a weapon that has 3 times better TTK than any other weapon in the same class.

I actually run the M30 AH Air hammer about 50% of the time I fly my reaver. My thoughts are this:

At range, it is useless. Up close, it does too much damage to ESF and Sunderers...

My recommendation would be to make 2 changes to it help balance the range with the damage, while maintaining the shotgun effect:

1) Reduce it's damage by about 30% so that it takes 7 shots instead of 5 to kill an ESF.
2) Reduce it's CoF (Cone of Fire) so that it has a longer effective range for killing infantry and doesn't do horrible damage to ESF when they are further than 50 feet away.

Point 4 seems more like a clientside problem really, perhaps a memory load issue?

Yeah, I notice that it doesn't load as quickly when there is a large battle going on below. Also, the faster you travel towards it, the more likely you will ram into it before it loads.

[RSphil]

agree with all 4.

dont get the 4th as much as it normally renders just in time for me to slam on the thrust and rise above it or bank hard to just miss it but there have been a few times a change in underwear has been needed lol.

[Rothnang]

1) Reduce it's damage by about 30% so that it takes 7 shots instead of 5 to kill an ESF.
2) Reduce it's CoF (Cone of Fire) so that it has a longer effective range for killing infantry and doesn't do horrible damage to ESF when they are further than 50 feet away.

It would still be overpowered with 30% less damage, given that it easily does easily 3 times more damage than any other ESF front gun to aircraft, and not just ESFs.

They really need to look into those weapons. Compared to the Banshee and Mustang AH the PPA is an absolute joke.

[Quadron]

It would still be overpowered with 30% less damage, given that it easily does easily 3 times more damage than any other ESF front gun to aircraft, and not just ESFs.

That's not true. I've tested the TTK on all the nose guns. I'm making a video about it soon.

The TTK on a M30 is 1.5 seconds for five shots. The TTK on all the Rotaries is about 2.00 seconds, give or take just a hair.

[Rothnang]

Ok, fair enough. I just tested this myself and you're right, the TTK isn't significantly faster than a rotary cannon provided every last bullet/pellet hit the target.

It does seem to do better damage against tanks, sunderers, liberators and galaxies though.

[Hobnail]

www.ps2calc.com is your friend in this regard.

[Hobnail]

Also I think much of the QQ on the AH completely overlooks just how bad the AH is stock when compared to the other guns and how many certs it takes to get it up to this state of 'OP'. A stock AH takes almost nine seconds to kill a prowler from the rear if every pellet hits whereas the stock vortek will do it twice as fast and you don't have to be <100m to ensure all the hits.

[Rothnang]

Yea, that's a weapon where they should just remove the magazine upgrade capacity, I mean, going from 3 to 7 shots is absurd. Just give it 6 shots standard and let people put the increased reload speed on it, which at +15% should come out to the same DPS as the 7 shot magazine.

I still think it does way too much damage to a lot of targets. When you compare it with the Banshee or the PPA it's just no contest. The Airhammer is more than a viable alternative to the rotary gun, for the other factions their special ESF weapon isn't even really a contender.

[BIGGByran]

Yea, that's a weapon where they should just remove the magazine upgrade capacity, I mean, going from 3 to 7 shots is absurd. Just give it 6 shots standard and let people put the increased reload speed on it, which at +15% should come out to the same DPS as the 7 shot magazine.

I still think it does way too much damage to a lot of targets. When you compare it with the Banshee or the PPA it's just no contest. The Airhammer is more than a viable alternative to the rotary gun, for the other factions their special ESF weapon isn't even really a contender.

You might be asking a bit much on this. Our faction "trait" is high damage per bullet, but we sack magazine count and ROF for this, so it fits right in with our faction trait. Plus our ESF isn't as maneuverable as the Mossy and Scythe.

[Varsam]

2) A second game breaking mechanic currently is how vehicle Assist kill XP works. The problem is that it is a tiny fraction of the amount of Kill XP overall. With my membership boost, killing an ESF + Pilot is equal = 800 for the ESF and 150 for the pilot. First of all, assist XP should be higher for when someone from the same empire gets the kill. Assists should be worth half of the kill XP for the vehicle AND the pilot. Second, if someone in an ESF decides to crash into the ground on purpose to deny xp, the kill credit needs to be awarded to the player who last did damage to him. This fix also needs to be a priority to keep ESF pilots playing.

This is actually a bad idea. Under this model, if there are three people attacking the same vehicle, then two people get at least half xp for assist. It means that there is now twice the aggregate xp reward for just a single kill. It encourages getting as many hits on as many people as possible rather than killing them. Why concentrate on killing one guy when you could easily make the same xp or more damaging a bunch of vehicles a bit? It gets even worse the more people are involved.

The solution to this could be taken straight out of Battlefield's book*, and reward xp based purely on percent damage done.

*as an aside, I don't know why there is so much hate for BF3. It is a fantastic game that does many, many things right.
You might be asking a bit much on this. Our faction "trait" is high damage per bullet, but we sack magazine count and ROF for this, so it fits right in with our faction trait. Plus our ESF isn't as maneuverable as the Mossy and Scythe.

I was under the impression they homogenized many ESF parameters like banking, turnspeed and rolling.

That's not true. I've tested the TTK on all the nose guns. I'm making a video about it soon.

The TTK on a M30 is 1.5 seconds for five shots. The TTK on all the Rotaries is about 2.00 seconds, give or take just a hair.

That's a pretty irrelevant comparison. If anything I'd say it proves the AH to be pretty OP, as the other factions' equivalents can't hope to match that. I'd be more interested in seeing it held up to the PPA and Banshee.

[Micro]

1, 2, 3 and 4; AGREED.

[Pella]

Good points. I have been banging on about this for months.

And the bain of Ammo towers :P

Also you missed out logging off.

[Rothnang]

You might be asking a bit much on this. Our faction "trait" is high damage per bullet, but we sack magazine count and ROF for this, so it fits right in with our faction trait. Plus our ESF isn't as maneuverable as the Mossy and Scythe.

High damage per shot and high DPS are two different things. I don't mind that the thing does a bunch of damage in a single shot but doesn't shoot that often, I mind that it genuinely does more damage than other weapon of its type, and has better armor defeating characteristics than any other weapon of its type as well.

I personally don't mind the Reavers maneuverability, but then I'm a Liberator pilot, so anything smaller than that thing is easy to handle by comparison. I actually kind of like the Reaver, because it's big momentum means you can pull a ton of the same moves as a Liberator that utilize your momentum to fly one way while shooting another.

That said, the mosquito overall has the best flight characteristics, and its body shape makes it the hardest out of any of the ESFs to hit as well.

[Gatekeeper]

Agree completely with 1, 2 & 3. Haven't noticed 4, but I don't fly that much.

[Hypergrip]

I'm actually fine with pilots jumping out of their ESF. If I am a Light Assault piloting and my Reaver is burning, I think it's perfectly alright to jump out and try not to land on a cactus. Pilots have been doing just this ever since planes were first used in war.
The important thing is, that I do this to save my life, not to deny the enemy pilot XP. If i bail out of my ESF, the enemy pilot deserves the full XP even if it crashes before he can shoot it down. And if pilots jump out and die from the fall, the enemy pilot also deserves the full XP as if he killed them. The "grief potential" of deconstructing the ESF to prevent it from crashing or being shot down could be negated in so many ways (delay, deconstruction taking a couple of seconds, require the vehicle to stand still, etc.) it's almost pathetic we still see it. Well, deconstruction is somewhere on the roadmap... let's see what the come up with.

[PredatorFour]

I've seen problem #4 many times and it's almost always with ammo towers or antennas. I've got pretty cranked graphics settings and I still see it.

I've experienced the same problem, them towers need nerfin for sure ! Good test of the old reflexes though to evade them:D

I'll add strikers to the list also, ouch they hurt:)

[CasualCat]

I call those magic ammo towers and yes, they're annoying.

Other thing I'd add is that assists should go to the crew(pilot/driver/gunner(s)) of crewed vehicles as well. Think it is frustrating to only get 100XP for an assist? It is even more frustrating when your gunner just about killed something then they only get an assist and you get nothing.

ETA: Also how does the game distinguish between intentional crashing and someone trying to land a burning aircraft to fix it? I know we can usually tell the difference through observation, but how does the game know? There has been more than one occasion in which I was actually trying to land a burning aircraft and just came in too hard.

I've also seen people bail to get on top of things. For example a suicide run on the crown with a last minute bail to get on top. I suppose if the people wanted to continue to do that they could cert ejection seat, but if someone is pulling it off without it, I don't see why we should punish them to stop the others.

[ThatGoatGuy]

3) Disallow bailing while the aircraft is in motion, except when using the ejection seat.

I'm glad you stated this, and I completely agree. I was about ready to rant off about how it would completely reject the use of ejection system, blah blah blah, but this idea... me gusta.

BTW, those pilots that remember the stupid BS with the ammo towers being ghosts until, "Ohai!" and then BOOM. Now satellite dishes on larger bases are doing it too. I was flying at Andvari bio and was being chased by a reaver. Tried reverse maneuvering and catch him off guard, and hit the damn invisible sat.

[Hamma]

Side note, the Air Hammer is definitely redonk.

[Neutral Calypso]

I don't think you need to disallow bailing. Just make the game smart enough to award a kill to whoever most heavily damaged your vehicle if you "suicide" less than a minute after exiting an air vehicle.