Large Outfits and Zergs do the same thing

[phungus]

I fly most of the time, which gives you a good view of the battle. Your organized outfits for the most part do the exact same thing a zerg does, they just mass on small outposts and roll around crushing light resistance, and occassionally crash into other large groups usually at tech bases. What's so ironic is if you join a platoon they constantly call other big groups zergs. Let me tell you, watching you guys from the air you all look the same.

Now two nights ago I saw for the first time something different. DPSO was rolling on helios with each squad doing it's own thing, and only converging against other platoon sized elements. What was incredible was that each squad being organized could run out and take one or two bases at a time - and with 4 organized squads this made it so Vanu was in firm control of indar despite the fact VS never went over 30% pop, and NC having a steady 50% pop. Amazing what you can do when you all don't clump up on the platoon waypoint and wait for points. In the 400+ hours of play time I have in PS2 this was the only time I saw a platoon run well and not just say they run well because their leader was a hard ass making people clump up and take wayyy to long doing boring stuff with overwhelming force. It also made it much more fun for us sythes because of instead of being constantly massed over a huge force we could roll around and support the squads that needed it and we constantly had stuff to do instead of farming freshly spawning infantry from the spawn rooms. Amazing that.

Anyway all of the big outfits are guilty of this and in the current state of the game they all function exactly like the zerg without the final wimper and dissipation (this is replaced with spawning back at the warp gate to mass and sit forever before doing the same damn thing again).

[EVILPIG]

Blanket statement is asinine. Your observation is of Helios? What you describe is SOP for the 666th. Out units spread across the front and our divisions support each other. Are you trying to say you've observed all outfits, all servers?

[Dragonskin]

I've been in the 666th, Azure Twilight and I am still in Ghost of the Revolution and I gotta say you aren't being exactly fair to call large outfits a zerg.

All 3 of those outfits would prefer to have equal fights and they try to send their forces out to accomplish that. The problem is that currently there is no real flow of battle. So sometimes you have large outfits hitting small outposts with way more people than they need because there is no good way to tell where forces are needed on the map.

Trust me that all 3 of those large outfits would love to have more equal fights.

[Stardouser]

I would say that in the context of any individual base from the view of the defense, there is no difference, It all seems like zerg to defenders. The difference between organized and Zerg would be which base you attack, how many you allocate, how quickly you move on, do you use coordinatoon(ie have infiltrators hack turrets at the moment people hit the cap points) , etc.

PS2 doesn't yet emphasize overall strategy like what I'm talking about, it's possible just not emphasized.

[phungus]

Blanket statement is asinine. Your observation is of Helios? What you describe is SOP for the 666th. Out units spread across the front and our divisions support each other. Are you trying to say you've observed all outfits, all servers?

Poppycock. I've had a character on Connery since the game was released. You 666 guys routinely zerg mass like everyone else. Every big outfit does, and from the air your movements are exactly the same and just as obvious to figure out. The only difference is large outfits don't putter out and dissipate, they regroup at the warpgate when defeated. This is more obvious now that I have an NC reaver, I routinely see massed 666 air over major battles, basically just sitting there over a massive group of friendlies.

[EVILPIG]

Poppycock. I've had a character on Connery since the game was released. You 666 guys routinely zerg mass like everyone else. Every big outfit does, and from the air your movements are exactly the same and just as obvious to figure out. The only difference is large outfits don't putter out and dissipate, they regroup at the warpgate when defeated. This is more obvious now that I have an NC reaver, I routinely see massed 666 air over major battles, basically just sitting there over a massive group of friendlies.

Wrong.

[ringring]

There was a question on a different thread somewhere to name the good outfits on Miller.

I named a VS one. Even though I play as TR I don't know the good TR outfits because I cant see what they do or how they do it but I could see what that VS outfit did because they did it to me.

Outfits on your own empire seem anonymous but really they're not however you have to get inside to see exactly how they operate and what they achieve. I'm certain looking from outside they seem just like an amorphous lump. It was like this in PS1 as it is in PS2.

[Rumblepit]

its very hard to know whats going on with these large outfits if your not on coms.... 666 dosnt really zerg, and i know because there is always method to their madness... its just that most outfits on connery really cant compete with their numbers and it tends to look like they are zerging.

i run with TTA" Mercs,Vexx,Op4,Kotr,Kaos,Tuf,Trg,Hfa,Fist"and sometimes we have 5 or 6 outfits working with us when we are doing joint ops. if you were a outsider looking in it would look just like a zerg unless you were on coms to hear and see the big picture.

so what im saying is you should look into how these outfits work before you assume things.

[ThatGoatGuy]

I don't think you understand that the difference between large outfits and zergs is organization. Yes, platoons like AOD on Mattherson throw out waypoints on occasion to get their massive tank zerg there. I have never seen a large outfit like TE do something anything nearly like that. It all comes down to organization, strategy, and communication. Zergs act like brainless tank armies that run around and half of the time are ghostcapping/steamrolling 3 or 4 guys who decide they want a few certs.

[Badjuju]

Sure some large outfits are nothing but numbers, but there are many which are pretty well organized.

This issue is the current capture mechanics and base design favors numbers over anything else. It doesn't really matter how skilled, organized, or strategic you are the larger mass group will win almost every fight. This is why people get so frustrated with larger outfits like TE, 666, ect and call them zergs. They get absolutely pounded because there is nothing you can do about numbers in this game, and due to its scale these outfits have become very large. There is in fact coordination within these outfits however.

Hopefully SOE fixes some of these issues down the road. Unfortunately there has been a visible trend lately of people leaving all the smaller outfits on the server to join the huge ones. Some of the best outfits in Planetside 1 were not focused on being the largest, but more on how they could work more closely together as a smaller group. I've been paying attention on the stats page and allot of those outfits continue to lose numbers and become smaller while the few large outfits on the server just get bigger and bigger. People don't like getting steam rolled so they join the largest force they can.

[phungus]

I don't think you understand that the difference between large outfits and zergs is organization. Yes, platoons like AOD on Mattherson throw out waypoints on occasion to get their massive tank zerg there. I have never seen a large outfit like TE do something anything nearly like that. It all comes down to organization, strategy, and communication. Zergs act like brainless tank armies that run around and half of the time are ghostcapping/steamrolling 3 or 4 guys who decide they want a few certs.

Having an authoritarian command structure where one guy says "go here" has the exact same effect as the zerg herding on a location. Where they go might be different, and is usually more strategic (though not as much as you large outfit guys assume, there are generally good reasons the zerg goes where it goes), but the net result is the same. 50 guys crushing 5 and spending most of their time "waiting for the points" at already won battles.

[Dragonskin]

Having an authoritarian command structure where one guy says "go here" has the exact same effect as the zerg herding on a location. Where they go might be different, and is usually more strategic (though not as much as you large outfit guys assume, there are generally good reasons the zerg goes where it goes), but the net result is the same. 50 guys crushing 5 and spending most of their time "waiting for the points" at already won battles.

This is why the new hex (old lattice) system is making a come back. If it was easier to tell where forces were moving then you would have more zerg vs zerg or large outfit vs large outfit action because you already know the fight it funneling at those locations.

The reason there is always a fight at the crown is because you know without a shadow of a doubt that there will always be a fight there. If it was easier to see the flow of combat around the map it would be easier to have bigger fights.

[EVILPIG]

Having an authoritarian command structure where one guy says "go here" has the exact same effect as the zerg herding on a location. Where they go might be different, and is usually more strategic (though not as much as you large outfit guys assume, there are generally good reasons the zerg goes where it goes), but the net result is the same. 50 guys crushing 5 and spending most of their time "waiting for the points" at already won battles.

You are just showing us that you have no concept of what is happening. We do not say, "go here" and lump everything onto a single target over and over. Our orders go more like, "1st Platoon, complete Indar Excavation, then capture adjacencies to Suarva and Cap Suarva". 1st Platoon Commander will have his/her squads spread out and capture territories leading up and around Suarva. "2nd Platoon, target through to Dahaka and capture. Then secure everything East to the H line and hold". "Armor, move into TI alloys and hold that front. You are the stop-gap". "Air, primary is to cover Armor, but patrol North and spot any significant armor threats". "Rapid Response Team, enemy presence in Paris, clean it out then push along the southern edge and keep the VS in check". And so on.. We're all over the front lines. Will we stack on a Biolab to break it if needed? Yes, and then we fan back out.

[SgtMAD]

whats funny is that ppl post this crap without any idea of what really happens.

and they all wonder whats wrong with PS2,wringing their hands in long drawn out threads that are confused from the very first post.

its friggin comical

[ThatGoatGuy]

You are just showing us that you have no concept of what is happening. We do not say, "go here" and lump everything onto a single target over and over. Our orders go more like, "1st Platoon, complete Indar Excavation, then capture adjacencies to Suarva and Cap Suarva". 1st Platoon Commander will have his/her squads spread out and capture territories leading up and around Suarva. "2nd Platoon, target through to Dahaka and capture. Then secure everything East to the H line and hold". "Armor, move into TI alloys and hold that front. You are the stop-gap". "Air, primary is to cover Armor, but patrol North and spot any significant armor threats". "Rapid Response Team, enemy presence in Paris, clean it out then push along the southern edge and keep the VS in check". And so on.. We're all over the front lines. Will we stack on a Biolab to break it if needed? Yes, and then we fan back out.

Thank you.

[Sardus]

Everyone runs their show differently. Just because you're a large outfit, doesn't mean you're a zerg.

By definition you're not. As one guy pointed out earlier - outfits don't dissipate after each battle and have some sort of clue what's going on. Without lattice links or command ranks 5s like PS1, outfits are really all that we have to give some sort of resemblance to a front line or natural progression.

[EVILPIG]

Everyone runs their show differently. Just because you're a large outfit, doesn't mean you're a zerg.

By definition you're not. As one guy pointed out earlier - outfits don't dissipate after each battle and have some sort of clue what's going on. Without lattice links or command ranks 5s like PS1, outfits are really all that we have to give some sort of resemblance to a front line or natural progression.

Orders can accomplish everything CR5 could, it's just under utilized. The Leadership VOIP is great too, but I don't see it used enough. I'm not just talking about NC Connery. Yesterday, I played 3 hours as VS and no one said anything on either. Then 1 guy got on and got like 4 of their outfits rolling, but until then - silence.

Honestly, I'm worried the lattice is a mistake. It will make things too predicable. It will force everyone to go certain routes and how will smaller units circumvent the primary front if they are confined to a collision course with everyone else? One of the biggest problem is the maps are actually small. We absolutely need continental capture, warpgates instead of footholds and many more interconnected continents so that there can be Global strategy. Home continents so that empires can prioritize where they need to be. Sadly, more maps is the most important thing we need right now to make this work.

[bpostal]

Orders can accomplish everything CR5 could, it's just under utilized. The Leadership VOIP is great too, but I don't see it used enough. I'm not just talking about NC Connery. Yesterday, I played 3 hours as VS and no one said anything on either. Then 1 guy got on and got like 4 of their outfits rolling, but until then - silence.

Honestly, I'm worried the lattice is a mistake. It will make things too predicable. It will force everyone to go certain routes and how will smaller units circumvent the primary front if they are confined to a collision course with everyone else? One of the biggest problem is the maps are actually small. We absolutely need continental capture, warpgates instead of footholds and many more interconnected continents so that there can be Global strategy. Home continents so that empires can prioritize where they need to be. Sadly, more maps is the most important thing we need right now to make this work.

While important, I'd argue that there needs to also be more strategically minded objectives for smaller outfits. All the different types of holds and drops that were the bread and butter are either nonexistent or have been bastardized beyond recognition.

[SgtMAD]

it could easily be done with /orders,the system is there, it just needs to be worked correctly and you need the player pop to buy into what you are trying to do.


it can be done.

I am shocked that it hasn't happened already.

[Saintlycow]

I really disagree with the OP in this case. Sure some large outfits do zerg a lot, but there's usually a better plan then "Drown them in Men!" What you describe tends more to be a miss-prioritization of troops and resources, due to the map system not giving great info on enemy concentration.

See EVILPIG's comment here

You are just showing us that you have no concept of what is happening. We do not say, "go here" and lump everything onto a single target over and over. Our orders go more like, "1st Platoon, complete Indar Excavation, then capture adjacencies to Suarva and Cap Suarva". 1st Platoon Commander will have his/her squads spread out and capture territories leading up and around Suarva. "2nd Platoon, target through to Dahaka and capture. Then secure everything East to the H line and hold". "Armor, move into TI alloys and hold that front.

The triple six (mafia :lol:) have no real Idea where the enemy is. Sure, the map might say "enemy squads", or it might be empty. But you can't be sure an enemy platoon doesn't decide to defend the base at a whim.


If there are 3 TR at Indar excavation, they say the zerg has come. If there were 30 TR at Indar excavation, they say a fight has come.


A small group of players who are outnumbered will always call the enemy "zerg".

[Assist]

whats funny is that ppl post this crap without any idea of what really happens.

and they all wonder whats wrong with PS2,wringing their hands in long drawn out threads that are confused from the very first post.

its friggin comical

To be fair though what the OP describes does go on. It goes on quite a bit on Waterson VS currently, because the largest outfits are extremely unorganized. Their leadership of some of the large VS outfits believe that the only place to get a good fight is on Indar, as the Crown, Allatum, and Zurvan. So every day we VS log in, the three largest outfits on the VS side are crowded into these zones, fighting the endless battle. They have no strategy, they don't care about capturing continents, and their only goal is to be apart of the 'fun' fight.
I've given up attempting to be nice and persuade these outfit leaders, as I'm not good at it. So I've taken the more direct approach and have been confronting them. Surprisingly, it has worked to some degree as a few larger outfits have started to maintain a presence on other continents and they even attempt to organized with each other. The problem is the three largest outfits(1120, 700, 500 members) still do not leave that area on Indar. So what ends up happening is the smaller outfits and medium sized outfits have no choice but to join in on Indar, as VS Waterson does not have the population split for two continents. We end up with one giant zerg, spread across three zones, losing our flanks to both the TR and NC all the while there's quality fights going on with a chance of success for VS on Amerish/Esamir.


So while the OP may be off in declaring Large Outfits = Zergs, he's not horribly far off on some servers. I completely understand his frustration, as it's boring as fuck to play on VS Waterson right now, specifically because of the larger outfits not using strategy, tactics, or even remotely acting as if they're organized.

edit: to give you an idea, of why us smaller outfits need these large outfit. The TR have 7 outfits above 500 members (totaling 5470 members) , the NC have 5 (5530 members), and the VS have 4(2920 members). I see nothing wrong with outfits being labeled as zergs, I don't see that as a bad thing in PS2. An unorganized zerg though, is a completely different story.

[Hamma]

As much as I am not a fan of massive outfits (most massive outfits) blanket statements like the OP's are misinformed. They all operate very differently.

[Sardus]

Orders can accomplish everything CR5 could, it's just under utilized. The Leadership VOIP is great too, but I don't see it used enough. I'm not just talking about NC Connery. Yesterday, I played 3 hours as VS and no one said anything on either. Then 1 guy got on and got like 4 of their outfits rolling, but until then - silence.

Honestly, I'm worried the lattice is a mistake. It will make things too predicable. It will force everyone to go certain routes and how will smaller units circumvent the primary front if they are confined to a collision course with everyone else? One of the biggest problem is the maps are actually small. We absolutely need continental capture, warpgates instead of footholds and many more interconnected continents so that there can be Global strategy. Home continents so that empires can prioritize where they need to be. Sadly, more maps is the most important thing we need right now to make this work.

I'm curious to see how they'll work too.

As a leader of a large outfit I notice you have to spend a lot of time on the macro scale, picking targets of where to go. The lattice will limit your choices. That I totally get. And I'm not sure if that's a good or a bad thing. It might actually lead to some interesting changes, or it might hinder it.

On the other hand I also specialize a lot on the micro scale combat. E.G. how to tackle that individual base. Lattice links will force enemies to attack me where I want them to. And you know TRG, we love that kind of stuff.

[Sardus]

While important, I'd argue that there needs to also be more strategically minded objectives for smaller outfits. All the different types of holds and drops that were the bread and butter are either nonexistent or have been bastardized beyond recognition.

Yep, that should always be #1 on the list. You have to give the small guys something to do.

Closest thing I can think of is RPGS... you have to give the level 5 guy a chance against the level 50 guys. Balance is important. If they just get steam rolled all the fucking time, they won't play.

[Sardus]

it could easily be done with /orders,the system is there, it just needs to be worked correctly and you need the player pop to buy into what you are trying to do.


it can be done.

I am shocked that it hasn't happened already.

I like the orders thing.. but there was something different about the CR5 thing in planetside. Despite the numerous jack offs that had it, the CR5s had enormous power over the zerg. /comcont and to a lesser extend /comall had a lot to do with it.

[Silent Thunder]

Yep, that should always be #1 on the list. You have to give the small guys something to do.

Closest thing I can think of is RPGS... you have to give the level 5 guy a chance against the level 50 guys. Balance is important. If they just get steam rolled all the fucking time, they won't play.

As much as I agree that smaller outfits need some things to do, that analogy is completly off. Most RPGs prevent lvl 50s from steamrolling lvl5's by telling them "You're too high of a level, you can't play here" Or "You're too high level, you can only attack the lvl 5 if he's dumb enough to attack you first" Or the much more common "You can only PVP in this specefic area" So taking any lessons from that sort of system is nothing going to be constructive to planetside

[Sledgecrushr]

A toast to Sardus and the TRG!! May the fight never end.

[bpostal]

As much as I agree that smaller outfits need some things to do, that analogy is completly off. Most RPGs prevent lvl 50s from steamrolling lvl5's by telling them "You're too high of a level, you can't play here" Or "You're too high level, you can only attack the lvl 5 if he's dumb enough to attack you first" Or the much more common "You can only PVP in this specefic area" So taking any lessons from that sort of system is nothing going to be constructive to planetside

This analogy may only work if you play World of Warcraft, I did for a while. Was fun. Now to nerd out a bit:
Think of the re-imaging of Azeroth did their Cata expansion release. They burned down (literally in some areas) the old continents and brought in all new things. This way those who are running an instance at level 40 have just as much fun, and just about the same experience as those at the max level.
The small outfits are just like those low level characters (Not in any demeaning sort of way) for whatever reason(s) they're just not effective as the higher level (larger outfits) because the game isn't set up to be a level playing field (unfortunately).
Larger outfits are normally able to leverage their larger amounts of players quickly to overwhelm an area. Either through sheer numbers or their ability to easily enforce fire control over an entire area.
Until base design is rectified (and I honestly believe they're trying) and strategic objectives, that can be held tactically, are introduced the overall Planetside experience is lost to a vast number of SOE's playerbase.
It's why I can't really get mad at those who only play for certs or to kill whore, because that's all the game is offering them.

Edit: Sorry, kinda went off on a little tirade. Don't nobody take nothin personal. :)

[Dragonskin]

A small group of players who are outnumbered will always call the enemy "zerg".

I think you mean any enemy with more numbers than you perceive on our own faction is called "the zerg".

No one is ever beaten by coordination or skill alone. It's only ever because of numbers OR use of OP abilities/weapons because a average person can't fathom they were out played on a level playing field.

[SgtMAD]

the lattice will limit options and possibilities,which I guess is fine if you are interested in a boring repetitive fight,when you take away those options you create a stale game play experience over time.

after a month of this the new bitch will be "everyone is sick of getting farmed" because they have created artificial choke points on the map that funnel players into mass kill zones over and over again,all it will take is a little time to figure out how the new routes are incorporated into the map

[Assist]

the lattice will limit options and possibilities,which I guess is fine if you are interested in a boring repetitive fight,when you take away those options you create a stale game play experience over time.

after a month of this the new bitch will be "everyone is sick of getting farmed" because they have created artificial choke points on the map that funnel players into mass kill zones over and over again,all it will take is a little time to figure out how the new routes are incorporated into the map

maybe, I think it won't be quite as bad as that. The choke points are purely related to 'meta-game' advancement, which it seems very few care about currently. I think since they're not actual physical choke points it changes the game some but not enough to create these kill zones any worse than it is now at certain bases.

One thing is for sure though, people will bitch about it once it does come out. That's the one things gamers can always rely on, something to bitch about :D