Calling it now. "Mattocks OP" threads incoming.

[Chewy]

I said that I was gong to redo my video on the Hacksaw tests I did thanks to GU6. Sadly I can't give that yet thanks to me trying to use Dxtory now and Windows Movie Maker hates Dxtory files. Going to have to either re-record everything again with FRAPS or get a new editing software (could use an opinion on what one to get). But, from what I found the Mattocks are GREAT weapons now.

Hacksaws have been nerfed hard. They are even worse at range against infantry and it now takes 13 100% hit rate shells to kill another MAX (no headshots). No NC MAX weapon other than the Grinder can kill a MAX without reloads or extended mags at any range now. That alone may ruin the NC MAX bio-lab farmers, I just can't say how bad it is going to be for us yet.

My beloved Mattocks on the other hand. They got a HUGE buff, I was able to kill VR infantry targets up to 30m without reloads and slugs are of use now! If you control fire or alternate your shots, those things can get ranges close to a TR Mercy MAX. Still not as good as dual Mercy in my opinion but it's damn good for a shotgun.

A small tip for Mattock users or just any NC MAX with slugs. Never, and I mean NEVER, fire both arms at once! Always fire one at a time, even just a click click can get better spreads than mashing both M1 and M2 together. You can shoot as fast as you can with alternating fire and still have better spreads than with controlled dual firing.

[Sardus]

I said that I was gong to redo my video on the Hacksaw tests I did thanks to GU6. Sadly I can't give that yet thanks to me trying to use Dxtory now and Windows Movie Maker hates Dxtory files. Going to have to either re-record everything again with FRAPS or get a new editing software (could use an opinion on what one to get). But, from what I found the Mattocks are GREAT weapons now.

Hacksaws have been nerfed hard. They are even worse at range against infantry and it now takes 13 100% hit rate shells to kill another MAX (no headshots). No NC MAX weapon other than the Grinder can kill a MAX without reloads or extended mags at any range now. That alone may ruin the NC MAX bio-lab farmers, I just can't say how bad it is going to be for us yet.

My beloved Mattocks on the other hand. They got a HUGE buff, I was able to kill VR infantry targets up to 30m without reloads and slugs are of use now! If you control fire or alternate your shots, those things can get ranges close to a TR Mercy MAX. Still not as good as dual Mercy in my opinion but it's damn good for a shotgun.

A small tip for Mattock users or just any NC MAX with slugs. Never, and I mean NEVER, fire both arms at once! Always fire one at a time, even just a click click can get better spreads than mashing both M1 and M2 together. You can shoot as fast as you can with alternating fire and still have better spreads than with controlled dual firing.

That sounds a lot more skill based and reasonable in my opinion. Nice.

[Snoopy]

That alone may ruin the NC MAX bio-lab farmers, I just can't say how bad it is going to be for us yet.

That's a shame.

[Snydenthur]

Well, op whiners do need to cry about something. Otherwise they would have to admit that they aren't as great in games as they think. (I don't mean everyone of course, sometimes there are legit op weapons in games)

But what are mattocks? Or how do they differ from other nc max weapons? I think nobody has never even used them or at least I've never been killed by them.

[Chewy]

Well, op whiners do need to cry about something. Otherwise they would have to admit that they aren't as great in games as they think. (I don't mean everyone of course, sometimes there are legit op weapons in games)

But what are mattocks? Or how do they differ from other nc max weapons? I think nobody has never even used them or at least I've never been killed by them.

The Mattocks are the NC MAXes version of a ranged weapon. Like the Mercy is the ranged weapon for TR MAXes. They have the smallest pellet spread (2.5 as of GU6) but do the least damage. 112 per pellet against the 134 per pellet of all other NC MAX weapons.

Most everyone called them shit shotguns for being low damage and didn't bother using them. But a few like me thought that range is better than raw power and it is now paying off with shotguns that can reliably kill at 30m. Where before it was about 15m.

All the bitching about shotguns being to powerful at range has now become true! Before a 30m non slug shotgun kill was but a myth or extreme luck, now it's going to be a common thing. I am going to be happy to read the complaints of a once weak and unused weapon.

[Baneblade]

How did DVS recruit someone as smart as you?

[Wahooo]

How did DVS recruit someone as smart as you?

Shotgun approach... duh.

Spray enough invites around you eventually hit a target.

[Varsam]

I'm glad that NC now have a weapon that can at least compete at mercy/cosmos ranges.

Hacksaws are still plenty deadly at close range.

[Sirisian]

Hacksaws are still plenty deadly at close range.
Still too deadly in MAX 1v1 fights. I don't think they can be balanced without being OP honestly and should probably be removed in the next patch. I've never enjoyed fighting an NC MAX. A TR MAX is fun to duel with and skill comes out on top, but I've never got that feeling with the NC one.

[Assist]

From playing yesterday, there was not many people using the NC MAX. I did run into a Mattock MAX at Onatha, he attempted to kill me from long range. Needless to say it didn't work too well, but may have just been his aim.

If the Mattock is better at range, but the hacksaws are dogshit medium range, I think that's a fair trade off. The complaint people had about the NC MAX was it was too deadly close range, and it the hacksaws seemed to have this ridiculous ability to randomly kill people at 40m+ as if they were at 5m distance. I know your testing doesn't show this, but it was how it worked in game usually. That's why my personal complaint was for them to fix the Hacksaw so it's either that close range specialist, or lower it's close range damage and increase it's long range ability. It seems to me that they went more that direction with the MAX, which is a good thing IMO.
Maybe they nerfed it too hard, I honestly don't know because I didn't run into a single hacksaw MAX, or maybe we can use the same bullshit response that people used with the Magrider nerf - "It's all psychological!".

Overall I think the shotgun changes were not that impressive. The same problems still exist. If I were SoE I'd just remove light assault from using them, but that would probably piss off 50% of their customer base. IMO Shotgun's wouldn't have been nearly as bad if they were always coming at you from the ground.
As for the NC MAX, if they're better overall then the community gets what they deserve. I was fine with how they were pre-patch as the only times they were a serious issue is when a solid player was using one(and those guys kill me with any gun anyways). If they're worse, then they'll eventually be brought back to what they were, similar to the Magrider.

[Assist]

How did DVS recruit someone as smart as you?

Well, he's like a MAX fanatic of sorts. I'm pretty sure every DVS member either plays Engineer, Medic, or MAX. It's like a MAX players wet dream!

[psijaka]

SoE are NEVER going to be able to balance a MAX shotgun against a MAX HMG; the weapons are too dissimilar. What they need to do is let the TR and VS have access to a MAX shotgun and NC have access to an HMG like the Mercy. This is how it could work (repeated from another thread):

TR get a MAX shotgun; higher rate of fire, lower damage, larger clip than NC.

VS get a MAX shotgun; slightly lower DPS but smaller cone of fire than the TR version above.

NC get a MAX HMG; higher damage than TR; lower ROF, smaller clip.

Everybody happy!

/wishful thinking

[Chewy]

Still too deadly in MAX 1v1 fights. I don't think they can be balanced without being OP honestly and should probably be removed in the next patch. I've never enjoyed fighting an NC MAX. A TR MAX is fun to duel with and skill comes out on top, but I've never got that feeling with the NC one.

Without certing into a NC MAX weapon it is near impossible to kill another MAX even with duals before a reload unless at least one of your weapons is a grinder and/or you have good support.

Note I said impossible and not improbable.

It now takes 13 shells or 12 shells and 1 melee from any NC MAX weapon but one (Mattocks take 14-15 I think) to kill another MAX. Those 13 shells need a 100% hit rate with every single pellet landing and that 100% is impossible with moving targets, even at 0m. At 20m it now takes just about an entire ammo pool to kill a standing MAX with Hacksaws. Mattocks on the other hand take around half of an ammo pool at 20m.

Against infantry a dual Hacksaw is still just a 2 shell kill at 0m. So farming a bunch of idiots that run up to you is still doable, it just isn't as good anymore.


But one rule for all MAXes is still in the game. A reloading MAX is a dead MAX. Only now NC MAXes need to reload more and reload longer if I read the reload times right. Im going to have to re-record everything again with FRAPS thanks to me not being able to use Dxtory files with the, crap, editing software WMM. So I can't offer proof just yet.

Iv heard that Sony Vegas was a good editor. Anyone got another decent editor that they can tell me about?

[Obstruction]

TR get a MAX shotgun; higher rate of fire, lower damage, larger clip than NC.

VS get a MAX shotgun; slightly lower DPS but smaller cone of fire than the TR version above.

NC get a MAX HMG; higher damage than TR; lower ROF, smaller clip.

the problem there is it sounds great but it doesn't add up.

"higher rate of fire" is much more DPS by an order of magnitude unless the "lower damage" is pitifully low, which it won't be, because it would be unusable at average player accuracy.

then lower DPS is just lower DPS, so VS would still suck.

i'd explain a little more why but all i can say is "because math."

someone else maybe can explain the relationship of these stats but basically i had a friend examine it by taking a set of given constants and showing one thing in terms of the other and that's how it comes out.

higher rate of fire and extended clip trump higher damage and faster reload up to a certain point where the latter either approaches 1 hit kill, or a certain threshold for low accuracy (range and movement of target usually) on the part of the former.

i know i don't personally have the credentials to back up my claim and i'm sorry, because where i do understand core principles and bigger pictures i fail at the math.

however, many examples can be drawn from other games where you get gear that changes these same stats. it is a well understood relationship i'm talking about and that's the body of evidence i'm drawing my claim from.

edit: i also want to say that i understand the lore behind the "personalities" of the weapons that the above example is trying to achieve. it isn't a bad thing to want to match the lore like that. it's just a problem of how it plays out when you try to make them match that ideal that was just basically written by a guy who thought that sounded like a cool way to trade off stats.

you can even see in the spreadsheet for the weapons where they tried to make it fit the lore but in the end everyone's stock weapons are about evenly matched with a few exceptions that everyone either abuses or bitches about the other guy having. and those exceptions have a basis in what i described here.

[Chewy]

the problem there is it sounds great but it doesn't add up.

"higher rate of fire" is much more DPS by an order of magnitude unless the "lower damage" is pitifully low, which it won't be, because it would be unusable at average player accuracy.

then lower DPS is just lower DPS, so VS would still suck.

i'd explain a little more why but all i can say is "because math."

someone else maybe can explain the relationship of these stats but basically i had a friend examine it by taking a set of given constants and showing one thing in terms of the other and that's how it comes out.

higher rate of fire and extended clip trump higher damage and faster reload up to a certain point where the latter either approaches 1 hit kill, or a certain threshold for low accuracy (range and movement of target usually) on the part of the former.

i know i don't personally have the credentials to back up my claim and i'm sorry, because where i do understand core principles and bigger pictures i fail at the math.

however, many examples can be drawn from other games where you get gear that changes these same stats. it is a well understood relationship i'm talking about and that's the body of evidence i'm drawing my claim from.

edit: i also want to say that i understand the lore behind the "personalities" of the weapons that the above example is trying to achieve. it isn't a bad thing to want to match the lore like that. it's just a problem of how it plays out when you try to make them match that ideal that was just basically written by a guy who thought that sounded like a cool way to trade off stats.

you can even see in the spreadsheet for the weapons where they tried to make it fit the lore but in the end everyone's stock weapons are about evenly matched with a few exceptions that everyone either abuses or bitches about the other guy having. and those exceptions have a basis in what i described here.

There's DPS with HMGs and there's DPS with shotguns. Math used for one may not be able to be used for the other.

Getting raw DPS only shows what can happen with a 100% hit rate and that is never the case outside of 0m. What makes shotguns a shotgun is the shot used for their shells. At 5m pellets often miss and that requires new DPS numbers and new math.

The math needed for real HMG DPS at ranges only needs to account for COF, ROF, bullet damage, targets size, and the targets range. Shotguns need to add in pellet spread into that. That spread alone is why shotguns are shock weapons that unload all damage ASAP at the great cost of range.

An example.

Mercy has a 100% hit DPS of 1015.3
ROF (426) / 60 = 7.1 * bullet damage (143) = 1015.3

Hacksaws now have a 100% hit DPS of 2797.92
ROF (209) / 60 = 3.48 * shell damage (134 * 6 = 804) = 2797.92

The question is how many pellets and/or bullets will miss at a given range. The DPS numbers listed are for a 100% hit rate and NOT accounting for anything but 100% hit rate. I don't know the math to account for pellet spreads and COF on a target of a given size at a given range. If I did Id post them, but I just don't know.

But I can tell you from my play time that the Mattocks are THE best NC MAX AI weapon now. Raw damage is lower, but with the smallest pellet spread and tied for the lowest COF (same as the Scattercanoon) it WILL land more pellets at ranges far past the others. Today I was able to get kills from places and ranges that I wouldn't have before on a reliable basis. In testing to kill a MAX at 20 with Hacksaws took up near an entire ammo pool, but Mattocks needed a little under half. Look up the stats yourself

All weapon stats.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AuOojvNLMApVdEtIU1NKenEzNzZOSWNaanFqSUVxLW c&type=view&gid=12&f=true&sortcolid=-1&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250

Just MAX weapons
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Amnj8jnZLDIOdEx6azNNdVozRmxLVkI2WnZmS2NqV 1E&output=html


If you have the math to that can account for ranges, target sizes, COF, and pellet spreads then please share it. The worst it will do is prove this one way or another. I can take the hit of being wrong. Showing how I get my data and explaining why I got it should show that. If I didn't want to be proven wrong then why give the other side ammo against me? It's more than what Iv been given by everyone else.

[psijaka]

TR get a MAX shotgun; higher rate of fire, lower damage, larger clip than NC.

VS get a MAX shotgun; slightly lower DPS but smaller cone of fire than the TR version above.

NC get a MAX HMG; higher damage than TR; lower ROF, smaller clip.

the problem there is it sounds great but it doesn't add up.

"higher rate of fire" is much more DPS by an order of magnitude unless the "lower damage" is pitifully low, which it won't be, because it would be unusable at average player accuracy.

then lower DPS is just lower DPS, so VS would still suck.

i'd explain a little more why but all i can say is "because math."

someone else maybe can explain the relationship of these stats but basically i had a friend examine it by taking a set of given constants and showing one thing in terms of the other and that's how it comes out.

higher rate of fire and extended clip trump higher damage and faster reload up to a certain point where the latter either approaches 1 hit kill, or a certain threshold for low accuracy (range and movement of target usually) on the part of the former.

i know i don't personally have the credentials to back up my claim and i'm sorry, because where i do understand core principles and bigger pictures i fail at the math.

however, many examples can be drawn from other games where you get gear that changes these same stats. it is a well understood relationship i'm talking about and that's the body of evidence i'm drawing my claim from.

edit: i also want to say that i understand the lore behind the "personalities" of the weapons that the above example is trying to achieve. it isn't a bad thing to want to match the lore like that. it's just a problem of how it plays out when you try to make them match that ideal that was just basically written by a guy who thought that sounded like a cool way to trade off stats.

you can even see in the spreadsheet for the weapons where they tried to make it fit the lore but in the end everyone's stock weapons are about evenly matched with a few exceptions that everyone either abuses or bitches about the other guy having. and those exceptions have a basis in what i described here.

You are completely missing the point here Obstruction.

Whilst it might not be possible to perfectly balance empire specific MAX shotguns with higher ROF, lower damage etc, it would certainly be possible to achieve a reasonable degree of balance.

Whereas I believe that it is utterly impossible to balance a MAX shotgun against a MAX HMG, as they are completely different weapon types. A MAX with a shotgun is always going to be better in CQC than a MAX with an HMG; that is the whole point of shotguns. Or do you disagree? Would you prefer that only NC get to keep the MAX shotguns?

[psijaka]

If you have the math to that can account for ranges, target sizes, COF, and pellet spreads then please share it. The worst it will do is prove this one way or another. I can take the hit of being wrong. Showing how I get my data and explaining why I got it should show that. If I didn't want to be proven wrong then why give the other side ammo against me? It's more than what Iv been given by everyone else.

I did a lot of work on this during my COD days; it is possible to express TTK as a "kill probability" taking into account recoil, spread, target size etc but only if you have a good understanding of the recoil and spread mechanics. Which unfortunately I don't have.

If someone does have a good understanding of how recoil is handled please let me know; I would love to delve into this.

Example of one of my COD plots from Black Ops (1).

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee391/psijaka/FullautomediumrangefullautoV4.png

[KaskaMatej]

@OP Can it kill a MAX in one burst?

If not, it's not a problem.
If it can, it's still a problem.

[Frotang]

Yup had been using Mattocks with slugs for quite some time now (hes right about the alternating fire with slugs it helps rediculously) saw they got a buff so i started using them with buckshot and let me tell you they are beast. You can actually AIM for headshots at range, which for a shotgun is damn good. Cant speak on the hacksaws bc ive Never used them but I can tell my Scattercannons are worse, just need 50 more kills for Auraxium on them and then im switching back to Mattock full time.

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 2

[Chewy]

@OP Can it kill a MAX in one burst?

If not, it's not a problem.
If it can, it's still a problem.

Only with a Grinder can a NC MAX kill another MAX in a single mag without spending at least 500 certs for extended mags.

Scattercannon, Hacksaw, and Grinder all do 134 damage per pellet and have 6 pellets. It comes out to just under 13 100% hit shells and each of those weapons but the Grinder have a total of 12 shells if dueled (grinder had 16 I think). But with extended mags on weapon it ups the shell count by 4 each.

Mattock do only 112 * 6 damage per shell. So they need a total of 15 shells (I just re-watched my raw footage) to kill a MAX at 100% hit rate. They have less play room, but with just 1 extended mag it is possible for dual Mattocks to kill in one firing. But their range is why I made this thread, not raw damage.

(again from raw footage that I still can't use with Windows Movie Maker for some fucked reason)

At 10m Hacksaws need about 25 shells to kill a MAX. Mattocks need only 16-17 shells (depending on controlled fire or spamming) at 10m. 16 or 25 no math needed on that. At 20m Hacksaws take around 92 shells full auto, Mattacks need only 25-32 shells (depended on fire type again). 92 against 25-32, again no math needed for that debate.

So with that said, Hacksaws are fucked now. No other way to say it and since I never used them that doesn't bother me. Mattocks on the other hand now can more than likely kill a MAX, without reloads, up to around 10-15m with a LOT of luck needed past that (shotguns are a random weapon after all) IF their user has both extended mags making the total shell count 20. With just 1 extended mag a single dual Mattock firing can kill a MAX at about 5-10m. And this is if it is 1v1, not counting for support on either side.


This is why I don't like DPS numbers. They lie about what a weapon can really do against what "should" be its better if they don't account for spreads and ranges. More so if the numbers are for shotguns. It is all about range in PS2, not raw damage.

Even bio-labs are full of 15+m fights from across hallways, landing pads, portal doors, and the odd room. Those ranges are where TR and VS MAXes ruled. Now that the NC MASes have a weapon that can be used at those with somewhat reliable outcomes, it is only a mater of time before more nerf calls are made.

Think about it. A weapon that was once thought useless due to lower damage is now going to kill MUCH better than a debated OP weapon. I can hear the cries now.

[moosepoop]

So with that said, Hacksaws are fucked now.

good.

[KaskaMatej]

snip

So, it cannot kill a MAX in one burst. Not a problem. Not OP.

[Chewy]

good.

So, it cannot kill a MAX in one burst. Not a problem. Not OP.

Not good at all. For one it removes options and choices for NC players. If you now don't run Mattocks, or maybe Scattercannons, you can't be of use in a fight that's not under 5m.

There's also the TTK videos of where NC MAXes always lost in a 1v1 at 10m and up against TR/VS MAXes. Those where with the old more damage and higher mag size NC MAX weapons. What will those test show now? What is the TTK now that a reload is needed for anything but Grinders and/or WELL certed weapons?

From playing with the shotgun numbers it takes over 10,000 damage for a NC MAX to kill another MAX. 13 normal shells is 10,452 damage(134 * 6 = 804 * 13 = 10452), 15 Mattock shells are 10,080 (112 * 6 = 672 * 15 = 10080)

Im going to assume it takes a flat 10,000 damage for a MAX kill. Lets look at how long it takes for a Mercy to reach 10K.
10,000 / damage (143) = 69.93 / RPS (ROF (426) / 60 = 7.1) = 9.84 seconds

For a single Mercy one reload is needed so it makes that TTK 12.24-12.84 seconds (9.84 + reload time (2.4 or 3) = 12.24 or 12.84) For dual Mercy no reloads are needed so fire time is 4.92 (9.84 / 2 = 4.92).


Mattocks 10k damage time
10,000 / damage (112 * 6 = 672) = 14.88 / RPS (ROF (180) / 60 = 3) = 4.96 seconds.

Now adding in reloads. A sinlge Mattock needs 3 reloads making TTK 13.96-16.36 (TTK (4.96) + reload time (3 * 3 or 3.8 = 9 or 11.4) = 13.96 or 16.36). Dual Mattocks need 1 reload making TTK 5.48-6.28 (TTK (4.96) / 2 = 2.48 + reload time (3 or 3.8) = 5.48 or 6.28).

Mercy real 100% hit TTK
Single - 12.24-12.84
Dual - 4.92

Mattock real 100% hit TTK
Single - 13.96-16.36
Dual - 5.48-6.28

BUT, that is ONLY if both sides have a 100% hit rate and that is impossible for both shotguns and HMGs at any range unless against standing 0m targets. Add in misses and that Mattock TTK will grow much faster than the Mercy TTK with greater ranges.

How much? I have no fucking clue, just trying to say that Mattocks are going to be the new "OP" weapon for the NC MAX once the masses figure this out. Just wait for people to cert up dual extended Mattocks that let them kill MAXes at range WHILE cutting off that reload time (5.48 - 3 = ?). Im also forgetting how great the tighter spread is against infantry now.

A shit storm coming. It only needs time and like many other have said. Shotguns are a bitch to balance against HMGs.


Crap edit-
My dual Mattock TTK math feels wrong. Any help?

2nd crap edit-
I "think" my dual Mattock TTK math is right now. Not certain.

3rd crap edit-
I had to re-word the last bit to fit the new math.

[moosepoop]

Not good at all. For one it removes options and choices for NC players. If you now don't run Mattocks, or maybe Scattercannons, you can't be of use in a fight that's not under 5m.


you should "use tactics".

[BIGGByran]

you should "use tactics".

lol, you mean to tell me that the TR and VS don't use this cause they complained on how OP our MAX is up to 8m.

Ah well, I hope they nerf the Mattocks as they are OP at the moment.

So, it cannot kill a MAX in one burst. Not a problem. Not OP.

May want to check on TR and VS MAX to make sure they cannot kill another MAX in one burst. Which according to Chewy, they can and needs a nerf.

[Obstruction]

err i don't understand what was posted at me. i pretty much said what i needed to say.

first, the OP restated his post and i'm not sure why. but ok.

then the other guy said i don't know what i'm talking about and went on to contradict himself because what he said (that i quoted) was:

1. TR should get a buffed out hackmax (faster ROF, derper clip)

2. VS should get a shitty version so we can lolz

3. NC should get a mercy max that sucks at being a mercy max

number 3 is sortof not related to the shotgun max discussion but i see why it "looks" like it does. because NC gets shotguns on their maxes and it's lopsided.

but that's no reason to lump all of this together and try to fix it by making it worse.

the relationship between damage and rof has been pretty clear in gaming for years and years.

like since the invention of the turbo button controller.

edit

i guess i can add to this just to say again that i understand the reasoning behind empire specific weapons and the "personality" of each type. but people are going to use their best advantage in games. i mean if this was about chess people would be saying white is OP because they always go first. right?

i don't really care if NC is the only one with shotguns or how OP they are, i just don't go walking in front of one. i usually avoid NC biolab fights because motherfuckers stand in the doors and farm with those.

it is funny to rocketpod a hackmax when he's been left behind by his platoon sunderer though.

[Neutral Calypso]

I am sorry, were you referring to me as the "other guy" ?

TR don't get a superpowered hacksaw because each shot would be lower damage than a hacksaw with the faster fire rate as a counterbalance.

VS would not be derp because the theory here is they'd have a smaller cone of fire so at the slightly longer ranges, the spread would be smaller therefore more shots hitting.

NC wouldn't get a retarded mercy. More like something with harder hitting shots counterbalanced by a slower rate of fire.


Of course, this is all assuming that SOE doesn't breakdown at the difficulty of balancing stuff and just give everyone weapons with equivalent stats and different aesthetics. I believe a man by the name of Rumblepit has suggested that MLG wants them to do something like that.

[Obstruction]

no bro i don't even see you in the thread. hang on let me read this.

[Obstruction]

yeah i would side with MLG.

BECAUSE OF WHAT I POSTED THE FIRST TIME.

[Neutral Calypso]

I am sorry, I seem to have derped and misremembered something having to do with posting in another thread on a similar subject. Now I'll have to go through all my posts to figure out -where- exactly I posted about this.

edit: Found it! Psijaka was quoting me from another thread.

[Chewy]

you should "use tactics".

Just what do you assume I am saying?

Do you think I am bitching about having the longest TTK? Or that the NC MAX now have no options against other MAXes but be dual Grinder or put 500-1,000 certs into extended mags and we are 90% fucked due to that?

What I am saying is that even with the nerfs a shotgun MAX is still going to be a better weapon in CQC fights and it isn't Hacksaws, Grinders, or Scattercannons. Grinders have power out of the door with their 8 round mags, but that power can't scale well with certed extended mags and slugs are very iffy on that weapon thanks to the pellet spread of 3.5 and the highest COF.

The Mattocks power on the other hand scale GREATLY once certed with extended mags. I said it takes 16-17 shells to kill a MAX at 10m with dual Mattocks and well having extended mags on both Mattocks lets you do that with room to spare.

Extended mags on both weapons brings the mag ammo count to 20 and removes the one reload needed to kill a MAX up to 10-15m. That also brings the TTK down to (if my math is right) 2.48 seconds. About HALF of a dual Mercy 4.92 TTK! That is something NO other MAX weapon can do because it's a damned shotgun and shotguns are a bitch.

I didn't make this thread to complain about how weak our AI MAX weapons are now. I made it to show that the shotgun "balance" gave us something better than than the old "OP" Hacksaw and to try and show people how damn near impossible it is to "balance" shotguns.

GU5 kicked the vast majority of NC MAX users in the balls, but at the same time gave us a weapon that can be far better than what we had. Open your mind and read something for a change.

[BIGGByran]

GU5 kicked the vast majority of NC MAX users in the balls, but at the same time gave us a weapon that can be far better than what we had.

TRUTH!

Unlike TR or VS MAX, their stock AI is good enough without any upgrades, but NC on the other hand HAS to cert into Extended mags so that we aren't constantly in a MAX vulnerable state (reloading), which the NC has A LOT more of than the other MAXs plus our reload times are super long.

I don't know why it is upsetting to me that our MAX took quite a nerf but yet I hardly play it (total kills for all my AI MAX weapons is 250. Scat = 137;; Grind = 113. This was before the nerf.). I wish they would get rid of the MAX Shotguns and give us something different with better range, I would probably play my MAX more, but then again maybe not.

EDIT:
I played after the nerf and I didn't mind the nerf on the ROF or the bullet spread or the bullet damage, those did hurt and I'm ok with that, but when they hit our mag count and our extended mag count, that really hurt the most and thats what is upsetting. It is the same kind of nerf they did with the Mag, they nerfed it and buffs others which in terms did an even more nerf to the mag. They need to slow the nerf down a bit, nerf 1 thing at a time to see how it feels, not nerf everything and then see how it does. 4 nerfs on one item in one patch is to much.

[Zaik]

omg its two jackhammers plox nerf

yeah right, like that's going to happen