Vehicles Proven Useless

[Neutral Calypso]

When you can get one-shot with a single rocket with no warning, it is official. Your tank is a useless piece of shit. WTB cert reset so I can get back all the certs I used on vehicles of any kind. They are all clearly useless when you can get one-shot by a Phoenix.

[Rothnang]

As far as I know a Phoenix can't oneshot a tank, unless there is some fuckery with physics damage going on.

That said, yes, vehicles aren't really fun these days, since the amount of firepower infantry can bring against them is just out of control. I've never been one to think that vehicles should kill infantry easily, but to me the solution was never to make infantry able to easily kill vehicles.


It's tank mines that are the most obnoxious IMO, because they just aren't visible enough. Yea yea, a mine should be hidden and all, but this is a game, it shouldn't be about simulating the aspects of a weapon that make it as hard as possible to counter in real life, it should be about creating facsimiles that have decent counterplay, and in the case of landmines that means you have to have a reasonable chance of seeing them.

[Whiteagle]

That said, yes, vehicles aren't really fun these days, since the amount of firepower infantry can bring against them is just out of control. I've never been one to think that vehicles should kill infantry easily, but to me the solution was never to make infantry able to easily kill vehicles.
Wha?

...Dude, are you one of those who went all day in a tank or something?
Because, yeah, Game has been MUCH more fun for me as both a foot-slogger AND Vehicle Operator.

[JesNC]

The only vehicles that can get one-shot by Phoenixes are ESF (barely) and Flashes, and then it's their own fault - FYI, even a stock Liberator can outfly a Phoenix missile. Everything else requires at least 2 missiles from a deep flanking position.

That said, I'm currently enjoying the Vanguard MBT for the first time since launch - in the past it was always left in the dust by other MBTs and even the Lightning. Changes to rendering distance and vehicle balance pushing the typical engagement ranges beyond ~100m has actually helped the Vanguard a lot IMO.

[AThreatToYou]

I dunno about you, but my tanking/flying/fury flash has been getting nothing but funner.

[Neutral Calypso]

So essentially what I am to understand is that either I was fighting a hacker, or I got hit by two or more phoenixes at exactly the same time.

I can accept that. I can't accept that one infantryman can annihilate a tank before the tank knows wtf just happened.


As for the tank mine thing, I can accept tank mines. Then it is my own dang fault for not paying any attention to the road.

[JesNC]

So essentially what I am to understand is that either I was fighting a hacker, or I got hit by two or more phoenixes at exactly the same time.

I can accept that. I can't accept that one infantryman can annihilate a tank before the tank knows wtf just happened.


As for the tank mine thing, I can accept tank mines. Then it is my own dang fault for not paying any attention to the road.

Exactly, although the chances that you got tag-teamed are considerably higher. Still, while it's incredibly frustrating it's rare for that to happen - just this week I got tag-teamed by an AV turret and a Decimator, and to me it looked like the Deci 1-shot me.

IMO I find handling NC/TR ESAV extremely easy. Against the Striker you only need cover nearby, against the Phoenix you stay at long range and keep mobile. Against the Lancer you simply have to shoot first ;)

[bpostal]

Exactly, although the chances that you got tag-teamed are considerably higher. Still, while it's incredibly frustrating it's rare for that to happen - just this week I got tag-teamed by an AV turret and a Decimator, and to me it looked like the Deci 1-shot me.

IMO I find handling NC/TR ESAV extremely easy. Against the Striker you only need cover nearby, against the Phoenix you stay at long range and keep mobile. Against the Lancer you simply have to shoot first ;)

As a Striker user, we appreciate it when you fly high and slow.
Thank you for your corporation!

[Rothnang]

I'm mostly a Liberator pilot, and from my perspective it's been a continuous downhill slide. I get that the Liberator was overpowered in a lot of ways in the early days of the game, but the solutions that the devs put forward for that have pretty much exclusively happened at the expense of the pilots.

It's just been one buff to AA after the next, a plethora of multi-purpose weapons so that people no longer have to pick between anti armor or anti air, a ton of nerfs to the weapons on the Liberator, which I would be in favor of if it wasn't for the fact that the nerfs often specifically reduced my ability to engage from safer distances and locations, and simply the fact that the proliferation of powerful anti air weapons has steadily increased over the months.
With the XP just for barely attacking a Liberator and being able to get a thousand XP or more for killing one it's also now pretty much everyone's favorite target.
The fact that the Liberator is vulnerable to all the same guns as an ESF is also simply BS to me. That's like if an MBT was vulnerable to everything a Flash is vulnerable to. The reason to even have grades of armor on vehicles is to allow slower bigger vehicles to only go up against weapons that a slower bigger thing can reasonably avoid. With Liberators that's not the case, every single thing that's really good at killing you is designed to hit an ESF, the fastest most agile thing in the whole game, so good luck avoiding getting hit with it, ever.


Driving tanks IMO has also gotten less fun with the inception of AV Mana turrets and the general inclease in the amount of anti vehicle weapons out there. When the game launched there just simply weren't as many because nobody had spent the certs yet, these days the roads might as well be paved with mines.


I don't really know why people find the general experience of being in a vehicle better. I fully comprehend not enjoying having an overpowered unit and killing people who can't fight back, but I don't feel we've traded that for good fun fights. It rarely ever happens that I get killed and say "Wow, that was clever / skillful, well done worthy opponent" it's always "Wow, really, that is so damn cheesy".

The one thing I will say is, buffing Nanite Auto-repair has been a massive improvement to vehicles. I love flying with auto repair now, because at least I don't have to land every single time someone rips half my hitpoints off while I just merely peek my nose out to scan for targets...

[Binkley]

AV mana turrets have insane range and can kill a tank from ranges where they can't be seen. They are extremely tough on tank drivers. Strikers are tough, but at least you can usually see from where they are coming.

[Whiteagle]

I'm mostly a Liberator pilot...
...Well there is your problem...

The fact that the Liberator is vulnerable to all the same guns as an ESF is also simply BS to me. That's like if an MBT was vulnerable to everything a Flash is vulnerable to.
Wait, what?

...I could have sworn the last time I shot at a Lib with Small Arms it didn't do any damage...

[ringring]

Well, since the last warpgate rotation I've stopped liking Indar. Those canyons are easily camped by AV turrets.

SW warpgate was a blast, nearly all the bases and outposts provided a farm and we discovered that at TI Alloys NC loved running into our guns but SE, nope.

Esamir is preferred atm.

[BlaxicanX]

Wait, what?

...I could have sworn the last time I shot at a Lib with Small Arms it didn't do any damage...

Are you always this obtuse, or is sunday just a special day for you?

- - - -

In any case, I don't fly but I do pull lightning's pretty regularly (though not nearly as often as ground-pounding). I've actually never had issues with any of the rocket launchers. That may be because I always play with my outfit, which provides so much target-saturation that I can't get focused down by HA's. That being said, mines are a pain in the ass. On the one hand, I don't have mine-guard so maybe I shouldn't whine, and as well, I guess an engineer having enough mines to kill a single vehicle is a good ratio for this game considering it's 100vs100v100 most of the time, meaning that if you die, two more vehicles will just take your place anyway.

BUT, mines still feel really cheap. I didn't like them in Battlefield 3 either, but at least in battlefield the mines were CLEARLY visible on the ground once you knew what to look for. In Planetside that isn't really the case. They don't stand out on the ground at all. It's kind of a bummer to be driving along doe-dee-doe and then suddenly, bam.

I think a decent compromise for mines would be, hitting one engineer's worth of mines will do like 95% damage to a lightning, which will outright destroy the vehicle if it's already taken a little bit of damage, or will leave it with a tiny tiny sliver of health if it had full health upon hitting it.

Engineers can get their full usual exp for destroying the vehicle, and half that if the mines doesn't kill it, so at least they're getting exp either way.

double edit- Ooorrrr we can just buy mine-guard >__>

[moosepoop]

bring in crewed tanks, increase tank hp by 30%.

[Zulthus]

Vehicles in general aren't fun to use because they gave them all 1/8th of the health they had in PS1. Is an infantry destroying a MBT by himself in 2 shots realistic? You bet your ass. Is it fun? Not in the slightest. Same thing with ESF's, they go down in no time flat. The only vehicle that I feel has enough hit points is the Sunderer.

I give you this video;

Planetside - Magriders near Honsi on Cyssor.avi - YouTube

Armor fights were fun because tanks weren't made out of paper mache. You actually had a chance to get a battle going.

[Timealude]

Vehicles in general aren't fun to use because they gave them all 1/8th of the health they had in PS1. Is an infantry destroying a MBT by himself in 2 shots realistic? You bet your ass. Is it fun? Not in the slightest. Same thing with ESF's, they go down in no time flat. The only vehicle that I feel has enough hit points is the Sunderer.

I give you this video;

Planetside - Magriders near Honsi on Cyssor.avi - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmHANTbeUeM)

Armor fights were fun because tanks weren't made out of paper mache. You actually had a chance to get a battle going.

I kinda feel that if you show your back end or someone is able to get behind you (excluding ESFs) I think they deserve that extra damage by showing your weak spot. Im sure the only reason there wasnt directional damage in ps1 is because the hit detection was shit in that game as well as the physics werent in the game as well. Tanks can destroy infantry when they roll in, so whats wrong with infantry being able to use cover to there advantage.

As for the AV turrets, if your getting destroyed by them...it means your side doesnt have snipers (or good ones) that will take down the enegys as well as the medics that rez them.

[AThreatToYou]

The reason why MBTs could be so strong in PS1 was this:

- They required multiple crew members
- The map design provided infantry extended opportunities to fire at them
- Overall the map design simply provided for that kind of gameplay with more open spaces
- Infantry AV weapons were more about DPS than alpha damage
- Access to them could be excluded
- Only some players could drive them
- They had a timer (~22 minutes i think!)
- Aside from the Vanguard, it always took 2 shots for a MBT to kill a rexo
- They had to deal with MAX units that could actually hurt them

The main reason why having vehicles that strong in PS2 is wrong are sadly many:
- Vehicle access cannot be realistically excluded because of base warpgates
- There are no minefields, but there are mines
- MAX units are more or less a deterrent
- Every player can drive an MBT
- MBT timers are relatively short
- Stock infantry AV weapons focus on alpha damage and are easily avoided unless very close
- MBTs require only 1 crew member to be effective
- Maps are just smaller

/e:
A point I completely forgot:
Ease of repairs

[Rothnang]

I think the main reason why vehicles could be tougher in PS1 is because field repairs were limited, so damaging them had more lasting effects. In PS2 it's pretty much kill or nothing, and the effectiveness of all anti-vehicle weapons is judged on that criteria alone and all meaningful anti vehicle strategies are designed around quick kills as a result.

That wouldn't be such a huge problem for me if the resource system wasn't so unforgiving. I don't mind having to wait out the timer, but I have both Premium and the Alpha Implant, and I still get run dry on resources if my faction doesn't control half the planet and I lose two Liberators in a row, which does happen. People always act like there are too few limitations on vehicles, but if you've put down 1000+ certs on getting the timer down and then the game tells you "Well sorry bud, but you aren't allowed to play your favourite unit right now" I go "Well OK then Planetside 2, fuck you, and i'll play something else tonight."

When I play with my Liberator at 2am the game tends to be a lot more fun, because the average amount of time I can stay alive starts matching the average amount of time it takes for resources to replenish. During primetime though where you have hundreds of ESFs gunning for that 2000 XP Liberator and 2, 3 Max units at every single base you go to, you can't really do much, and you get killed so often that you're forced into playing the infantry meatgrinder, which I don't find enjoyable. This has gotten even worse ever since high altitude bombing is basically impossible for most people, and that completely nixed the one strategy you could employ to make an impact even during huge battles.


I mean, I really don't begrudge people the kills or the XP, I just feel like if I'm the one who takes a massive penalty for getting killed too often then I should have more control over whether or not I do get killed without being shut out of every major battle. As it stands if you're in a Liberator and you fly into an area that has enemy ESFs and air defense you die pretty much guaranteed, often before getting any kills. During primetime that's pretty much every single major fight on the map. If I want to keep my losses low enough to continuously be able to play I simply get locked out of most of the action and end up just scavenging for stragglers and other easy kills while avoiding any opponent who can fight back.

There is just a massive double standard currently in the game between infantry and vehicles. Infantry players will throw a fit if anyone even suggests that getting respawned right inside the base you're trying to capture 10 seconds after you die at no cost is a bit extreme. But if any vehicle acts as reckless as infantry does, it dies just as fast, gets slapped with at least a 5 minute timer (if fully certed up), and resource costs that that can shut you down completely if your faction is pushed too far back.

[Whiteagle]

Are you always this obtuse, or is sunday just a special day for you?
Eh, a little of column A and a little of column B...

BUT, mines still feel really cheap. I didn't like them in Battlefield 3 either, but at least in battlefield the mines were CLEARLY visible on the ground once you knew what to look for. In Planetside that isn't really the case. They don't stand out on the ground at all. It's kind of a bummer to be driving along doe-dee-doe and then suddenly, bam.

I think a decent compromise for mines would be, hitting one engineer's worth of mines will do like 95% damage to a lightning, which will outright destroy the vehicle if it's already taken a little bit of damage, or will leave it with a tiny tiny sliver of health if it had full health upon hitting it.

Hey I'd be all for mines doing less damage if we just got to put down MORE of them at less of a cost!

[Rothnang]

I'm all for minefields instead of random instant death, but mines need to be more visible non the less.

I think mines should be changes so that shooting them sets them off at reduced damage, using an engineer tool on them removes them completely, and driving over them does a lot of damage but you can see them more easily.

Minefields should an obstacle to movement first and foremost, and only kill those who choose to ignore them IMO.

[Whiteagle]

Minefields should an obstacle to movement first and foremost, and only kill those who choose to ignore them IMO.
Hence more Anti-tank mines that do less damage...

It kind of defeats the purpose of a minefield if you can see it from 30m out, as you can then just bombard that area with artillery to set them off.

I can agree with the Repair tool being able to zap mines, and the Infiltator's EMP Grenades can do the same to ANY Engineer deployables, but highly visible Anti-vehicle mines will just be a waste of Resources...

...Unless you were talking about Anti-personnel Mines, but I play Terrain and one-shotting with Claymores doesn't happen...

[Rothnang]

Well just make it so they need a direct hit to set off, like Squad Beacons, no splash damage.

[Gonefshn]

I have had no problems dealing with the Phoenix in my Magrider whatsoever. It is a slow moving glowing blue ball, easy to spot easy to run from. It takes a few to kill a tank, like 4.

I have no clue what the OP is talking about me and my outfit mate were wrecking NC the other day in the magrider

[Falcon_br]

My biggest problem with the phoenix it something called LAG!
I already hit some of them in mid air, even hitting them, I still take full damage.
Also, running to cover means nothing, because I am still hit by them, even without line of sight, and it is a great turn so they couldn´t hit me, but because of the lag I receive the full damage.
Also I keep moving in full speed while flying a liberator and a mosquito, because if I decrease my speed, I can´t increase it again before I got hit with a phoenix.
One hit kill without warning to ESF is bullshit, make the lancer 1 hit kill and the striker kill with 5 rockets and we are even.

[Gonefshn]

Also, I played PS1 for years and years almost exclusively as a magrider pilot.

I do miss the additional armor but honestly I can have epic magrider runs that last just as long in PS2 as I did in PS1. The trade off is you have to run away and repair more often in PS2 then you had to in PS1. But in PS1 it took years to repair your vehicle.

I really don't have any issues with the new system. With a good gunner even when I use the FPC (the anti vehicle main cannon) I still can wreck infantry no problem. I kill so many idiots who stand still or are using the AV mana turret as sitting ducks, all using the AV cannon that has no splash. And a good gunner with the Saron or even the Halberd can wreck infantry no problem.

I have no problems in a vehicle staying alive and doing major damage. The Phoenix hasn't slowed me down at all. I prefer to fight the Pheonix over the Striker because of its limited range and speed.

If you have a problem with running away to repair often then sure you have a valid argument against the vehicle design in PS2. But personally I have learned to adapt and have a ton of success as a result. Learn how to gauge the fight and run away when necessary, repair, and return to the fight. If you play the right way Vehicles are incredibly powerful.

[Whiteagle]

If you have a problem with running away to repair often then sure you have a valid argument against the vehicle design in PS2. But personally I have learned to adapt and have a ton of success as a result. Learn how to gauge the fight and run away when necessary, repair, and return to the fight. If you play the right way Vehicles are incredibly powerful.
Indeed, the biggest strength of Vehicles in this game is that they can actually survive direct encounters long enough to pull back and lick their wounds.
As Infantry the TTK gives you no such luxury, you either get something done first or die pointlessly.

[Rothnang]

Yea, but there are tons of situations where you can't get away from being killed in a vehicle, and then you incur massive penalties that infantry never has to deal with.

Vehicles are fun in managable fights, but in huge battles when the threats to you are often unrendered until its too late and the massed firepower can instant kill you easily it gets ugly.

[Sirisian]

or I got hit by two or more phoenixes at exactly the same time.
That feeling of driving a Sunderer on Mattherson and exploding nearly instantly from Phoenix launchers from the spawn of a tower. I don't ever remember Phoenix launchers being that powerful in PS1 for base defense, but in PS2 it only takes a few of them to block Sunderers and other vehicles for 300 meters from a tower.

[Rothnang]

That feeling of driving a Sunderer on Mattherson and exploding nearly instantly from Phoenix launchers from the spawn of a tower. I don't ever remember Phoenix launchers being that powerful in PS1 for base defense, but in PS2 it only takes a few of them to block Sunderers and other vehicles for 300 meters from a tower.

Now you know how a Liberator feels within 800 meters of 2-3 Bursters. At least 300 meters is manageable.

[Sirisian]

Now you know how a Liberator feels within 800 meters of 2-3 Bursters. At least 300 meters is manageable.
I'm a Liberator pilot and AA max user. One magazine with upgraded mags and I can bring a lib down to 40% health if they don't have upgraded flak protection. It's not unusual for me to solo liberators by myself with an AA MAX.

So many issues with balance going to the extremes lately.

[BlaxicanX]

It was inevitable, frankly. Balancing a game that has low TTK is near-impossible enough. Balancing a game that has low TTK and needs to be balanced around hundreds of players fighting each other simultaneously... is basically impossible.

[MrMak]

So let me get this straight. They increased the Phoenix's damage slightly and now all of a sudden it went from everyone calling it rubish and the worst of the 3 empire specific launchers, to calling it OP?


I gues people have to find something to whine about now that NC MAXes got nerfed.


What next? Nerf the Gauss SAW? Maybe the Vanguard?

[camycamera]

i had allot of fun with the lighting earlier today, in which i outsmarted and killed a vanguard due to my mobility and speed and flanking manoeuvres. it was FUN.

[Sledgecrushr]

Last night on Connery. As a NC all I did was fight waves of enemy vehicles. A veritable endless sea of prowlers and mossies.

[ThatGoatGuy]

It's tank mines that are the most obnoxious IMO, because they just aren't visible enough. Yea yea, a mine should be hidden and all, but this is a game, it shouldn't be about simulating the aspects of a weapon that make it as hard as possible to counter in real life, it should be about creating facsimiles that have decent counterplay, and in the case of landmines that means you have to have a reasonable chance of seeing them.

I think that this would be way more viable if there were actually mine fields instead of just two tank mines, which can currently gib a tank without mine guard.

[ThatGoatGuy]

What next? Nerf the Gauss SAW?

We can only hope so.

[Sirisian]

So let me get this straight. They increased the Phoenix's damage slightly and now all of a sudden it went from everyone calling it rubish and the worst of the 3 empire specific launchers, to calling it OP?

Did you take a break from the game? I think you have your information mixed up. When they were released, the empire specific launcher people were having issues with was the Lancer. It was/is the weakest launcher. The Phoenix was the one that was called OP because it one-hit infantry rather easily. It's damage was only halved against infantry so it's still a rather effective infantry sniper, but for the most part that seems to be Higby's plan. Now that people are using it more for armor again it's true colors are showing with the ability to stop all armor from an area around a spawn room for around 300 meters. It doesn't sound too bad in theory, but during alerts small squads have been able to effectively shutdown any incoming Sunderer while staying completely invincible in the top of towers which give them a perfect vantage point. This is exacerbated on Esamir which has very little cover around bases and outposts forcing multiple engineers to stay with the Sunderer or it'll explode. The other issue is the Phoenix can be dumbfired making it the only ES weapon that can kill MAX units effectively. (Lancer seems to do very little damage to them for some reason since it might treat them like infantry, and Striker can't lock onto MAX units). Regarding the Striker it's just a better Annihilator still so it's rather effective against air and ground targets. Hopefully that clears things up. This is basically the situation we're in right now.

I gues people have to find something to whine about now that NC MAXes got nerfed.
Actually they got buffed slightly. If you use the Mattocks it's better than the Mercy and Cosmos right now. NC MAX is still effectively the king of MAX vs MAX and MAX vs Infantry combat. I'm hoping we see some balance changes to bring them more equal in situations. The asymmetric balance for maxes failed pretty hard as they refused to implement it for the NC MAX giving it both the best ranged and short ranged MAX weapons.

What next? Nerf the Gauss SAW?
Possibly. It's accuracy is the highest allowing the lowest theoretical ranged TTK. I use a Flare on my VS in burst mode and I'm around 50/50 with a SAW user so it's not that big of an issue, but I could see how TR might have a bigger issue with it since I don't believe any of their HA guns are great at range.

[Rothnang]

No no Sirisian, we are no longer allowed to complain about the Lancer because someone made a youtube video of how 5 people shooting at the same thing with one can instantly kill it and therefore it is now a great weapon and anyone who says differently doesn't know what they are talking about.

The Striker is the best out of the new launchers. Hands down, it's the Annihilator all over again, and even worse. The Phoenix is the most likely of the launchers to get you kills if you're using it by yourself. The Lancer is amazing when used in groups, but crap by itself.

[Sledgecrushr]

Did you take a break from the game? I think you have your information mixed up. When they were released, the empire specific launcher people were having issues with was the Lancer. It was/is the weakest launcher. The Phoenix was the one that was called OP because it one-hit infantry rather easily. It's damage was only halved against infantry so it's still a rather effective infantry sniper, but for the most part that seems to be Higby's plan. Now that people are using it more for armor again it's true colors are showing with the ability to stop all armor from an area around a spawn room for around 300 meters. It doesn't sound too bad in theory, but during alerts small squads have been able to effectively shutdown any incoming Sunderer while staying completely invincible in the top of towers which give them a perfect vantage point. This is exacerbated on Esamir which has very little cover around bases and outposts forcing multiple engineers to stay with the Sunderer or it'll explode. The other issue is the Phoenix can be dumbfired making it the only ES weapon that can kill MAX units effectively. (Lancer seems to do very little damage to them for some reason since it might treat them like infantry, and Striker can't lock onto MAX units). Regarding the Striker it's just a better Annihilator still so it's rather effective against air and ground targets. Hopefully that clears things up. This is basically the situation we're in right now.


Actually they got buffed slightly. If you use the Mattocks it's better than the Mercy and Cosmos right now. NC MAX is still effectively the king of MAX vs MAX and MAX vs Infantry combat. I'm hoping we see some balance changes to bring them more equal in situations. The asymmetric balance for maxes failed pretty hard as they refused to implement it for the NC MAX giving it both the best ranged and short ranged MAX weapons.


Possibly. It's accuracy is the highest allowing the lowest theoretical ranged TTK. I use a Flare on my VS in burst mode and I'm around 50/50 with a SAW user so it's not that big of an issue, but I could see how TR might have a bigger issue with it since I don't believe any of their HA guns are great at range.

Briefly I was being spawn camped by about 200 prowlers last night and when I tried to shoot one of those double barreled monsters with my phoenix the rocket eexploded on the spawn buildings force field. I deployed to another base.

[wasdie]

Vehicles in general aren't fun to use because they gave them all 1/8th of the health they had in PS1. Is an infantry destroying a MBT by himself in 2 shots realistic? You bet your ass. Is it fun? Not in the slightest. Same thing with ESF's, they go down in no time flat. The only vehicle that I feel has enough hit points is the Sunderer.

I give you this video;

Planetside - Magriders near Honsi on Cyssor.avi - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmHANTbeUeM)

Armor fights were fun because tanks weren't made out of paper mache. You actually had a chance to get a battle going.

I couldn't imagine how OP tanks would be if you needed to put even half as many rounds into them as you did in Planetside 1. You would have to reduce the power of their main gun by like 1/4th to balance them. Even if you forced the tank to be crewed the infantry to tank ratio would guarantee that infantry would be decimated by tanks if the tanks could soak up that much damage. Or you make it so that the tanks gun couldn't do nearly as much damage today, which then you're best off just using infantry weapons to kill other infantry.

The scales of this game kind of demand the kind of vehicle TTK we have if you want vehicles to be balanced.

[Rothnang]

The scales of this game kind of demand the kind of vehicle TTK we have if you want vehicles to be balanced.

If it's balanced on the TTK why do vehicle drivers have to suffer long waits and punishing resource shortages?

[Sledgecrushr]

If it's balanced on the TTK why do vehicle drivers have to suffer long waits and punishing resource shortages?

I never run out of resources. Maybe its because I have a sub and alpha squad bonus. I know that soe wants you to sub and has probably designed this part of the game to do just that.

[wasdie]

If it's balanced on the TTK why do vehicle drivers have to suffer long waits and punishing resource shortages?

Because there needs to be some game mechanic to limit the amount of constant armor on the field. If it was up to me I would increase the resource amounts it requires to pull them a bit more.

Right now there is very little risk in pulling a vehicle. You can outgun any solo infantry player and have the potential to kill many each time you pull one. Their risk vs. reward is all messed up right now.

[Whiteagle]

Yea, but there are tons of situations where you can't get away from being killed in a vehicle, and then you incur massive penalties that infantry never has to deal with.

Vehicles are fun in managable fights, but in huge battles when the threats to you are often unrendered until its too late and the massed firepower can instant kill you easily it gets ugly.
If you are getting killed by shit you can't see, then you are too aggressive and over-extending!

If it's balanced on the TTK why do vehicle drivers have to suffer long waits and punishing resource shortages?
Because you are over-extending and getting your ass killed shit-head...
Vehicles are not solo-pwnmobiles; They are valuable Engines of War that your Empire has entrusted you with, so keep them alive long enough to make that investment count!

If you suck bad enough that you can't keep your shit alive the maximum three hours and 20 minutes needed to make back your Resources, maybe you should reconsider pulling it in the first place!

[Rothnang]

Right, every single time a vehicle blows up it's the drivers fault. Being able to actually affect the battle you're in isn't overextending.

Besides, what kind of a stupid argument is that? Vehicle players need to get punished for taking risks? What about infantry? Where is their punishment for taking risks?


Double standards are a great foundation for claiming something is balanced.

[Sledgecrushr]

Right, every single time a vehicle blows up it's the drivers fault. Being able to actually affect the battle you're in isn't overextending.

Besides, what kind of a stupid argument is that? Vehicle players need to get punished for taking risks? What about infantry? Where is their punishment for taking risks?


Double standards are a great foundation for claiming something is balanced.

Dude sometimes you roll out of the warp gate with your shiny new vehicle and BAM you get blown up. It is one of the irrationalities of war. But luckily in this game you can respawn and drive a lightning or a liberator or one of the other vehicles. And if you keep getting blown up you still don have to quit. Pick one of the awesome infantry classes and do ten minutes of infantry combat. Vehicle cool down timers arent that bad.

[maradine]

Dude sometimes you roll out of the warp gate with your shiny new vehicle and BAM you get blown up. It is one of the irrationalities of war. But luckily in this game you can respawn and drive a lightning or a liberator or one of the other vehicles. And if you keep getting blown up you still don have to quit. Pick one of the awesome infantry classes and do ten minutes of infantry combat. Vehicle cool down timers arent that bad.

It's almost like it's a class-based shooter, not a study sim.

[CraazyCanuck]

If you are getting killed by shit you can't see, then you are too aggressive and over-extending!


Because you are over-extending and getting your ass killed shit-head...
Vehicles are not solo-pwnmobiles; They are valuable Engines of War that your Empire has entrusted you with, so keep them alive long enough to make that investment count!

If you suck bad enough that you can't keep your shit alive the maximum three hours and 20 minutes needed to make back your Resources, maybe you should reconsider pulling it in the first place!

Sarcasm perhaps? Even with rendering maxed on my end the biggest issue for me is still rendering of your attacker with the worst being AV mana turrets while driving a tank and Max AA while flying. I fear the AV mana turrets more so then another tank and I die more to Max AA then other ESF.

I would like to see the Max AA range brought down dramatically to say 300m and keep its dmg or keep the range but reduce its dmg. Increase the Skyguard to where the dual burster Max is right now in TTK. Also with the purchase of a skyguard, improve its dmg reduction vs Air Weapons while weakening it to ground units. Make it good at what it was designed for, killing air, while weak to ground combat.

[Whiteagle]

Sarcasm perhaps? Even with rendering maxed on my end the biggest issue for me is still rendering of your attacker with the worst being AV mana turrets while driving a tank and Max AA while flying. I fear the AV mana turrets more so then another tank and I die more to Max AA then other ESF.
Again, you are over-extending yourself...
If the Hex says "Enemy Squads Detected," guess what?
They'll be able to pull whatever AV they need to kill you and WILL DO SO!
The Map at least gives you a broad idea where the enemy is, so you should realise where their might be an AA Blob or Anti-tank team waiting for you just by looking at it.

[Sledgecrushr]

Again, you are over-extending yourself...
If the Hex says "Enemy Squads Detected," guess what?
They'll be able to pull whatever AV they need to kill you and WILL DO SO!
The Map at least gives you a broad idea where the enemy is, so you should realise where their might be an AA Blob or Anti-tank team waiting for you just by looking at it.

This kind of planning, isnt this what meta game is? I am all for more planning to help sucessfully execute a strategy in the field.

[Whiteagle]

This kind of planning, isnt this what meta game is? I am all for more planning to help sucessfully execute a strategy in the field.
I KNOW right, it's almost as if this is suppose to be some kind of... Military simulator or something!

[Rothnang]

Dude sometimes you roll out of the warp gate with your shiny new vehicle and BAM you get blown up. It is one of the irrationalities of war. But luckily in this game you can respawn and drive a lightning or a liberator or one of the other vehicles. And if you keep getting blown up you still don have to quit. Pick one of the awesome infantry classes and do ten minutes of infantry combat. Vehicle cool down timers arent that bad.

The cooldown timers are fine, I agree. It's the resource system that's a piece of shit because if you die too often and your faction is doing badly you end up not being able to pull the units you want at all until you go to another continent.

I'm actually not hugely against some penalty for dying in a vehicle, because I don't like gameplay where risk vs. reward breaks down because there is no real risk in anything.

What I am against is getting my vehicle smacked down with no chance to respond and save it, and people then saying that's a necessary mechanic to balance the game against my vehicle while I still incur the penalty.

Penalties are things you should get when something is your own fault. There are way too many ways to get killed through no fault of your own right now to justify the resource penalties though. I get the timer, that's so the enemies victory isn't meaningless. I can live with that even if I didn't stand a chance. If I am completely unable to get a new vehicle though or have to play with a unit I don't want to play with, or go to another continent than where my squad is or whatever, that just grinds my gears.

I'd go so far as to say even the timer is unnecessary on tanks, since tanks aren't fast. With aircraft I think the timer is reasonable, since it doesn't take any serious time to drive an aircraft from where it was spawned back to the battlefield, but with a tank there is usually timer enough just in driving it to where the action is.

[CraazyCanuck]

Again, you are over-extending yourself...
If the Hex says "Enemy Squads Detected," guess what?
They'll be able to pull whatever AV they need to kill you and WILL DO SO!
The Map at least gives you a broad idea where the enemy is, so you should realise where their might be an AA Blob or Anti-tank team waiting for you just by looking at it.

That's your argument? Because there are enemy there, you consider that over-extending? We should be able to guess where the enemy is? I guess vehicles should avoid all combat to avoid over extending. I go into every hex assuming their are threats even when the map may say otherwise. I expect the usual AA/AV set ups.

The problem as stated, is not being able to see them, because of the limitations of game itself. Even with maximum rendering I still can't see the target because the server has yet to draw them in. It was and is, but much less so now, the same issue wither sniper rifles. There wasn't much point in putting on a x12 scope because the default x6 scope was plenty given the rendering limitations. This has improved. At least with infantry fights it was even ground. Vehicle vs vechicle is even ground because both have a chance to see the other at the same distance.

Max AA and AV turrets have a cushion of "fog of war" against vehicles because of their range being beyond the infantry draw distance. Not so with vehicles. They are drawn in at a greater distance, which gives the infantry an upper hand based on this limitation.

I have no issues with being taken out by an enemy that uses cover and/or holds the more advantageous ground. Kudos for them in obtaining it and using it wisely. But getting taken out because of server limitation and coding is a bit of a bummer.

The TTK on vehicles is fine imo. My stats show how much I like taking out the enemy armor and air with 95% of that being down on the ground as I am newish to flying, but there still needs to be more fine tuning on the rendering distance to further prioritize targets that are firing on you and balance the scales.