How to fix the AV MAX

[psijaka]

EDIT - this opening post made redundant due to GU7 changes; see post 5 for details.

We all know that people who run dual AV MAX are a rare breed, which is no surprise as some of the weapons have serious shortcomings. Let’s take a look; I’ll use the NC Falcon as the reference point as this is the weapon that I have a lot of experience with, and it is actually pretty decent. I do have some experience of dual Pounders and Comets, so am able to make a valid comparison.

Against Armour:

Falcon has high burst damage, slow reload, with a tolerable amount of projectile drop. Velocity 80m/s, gravity 1.5. The Falcon is pretty decent against armour; the high burst damage/slower reload enables you to pop in and out of cover.

Comet is medium damage, medium reload, but zero gravity. However, velocity is significantly slower (60m/s) and the projectiles are highly visible. The Comet is not too bad either; the lower burst damage/shorter reload time means that you have to expose yourself to return fire somewhat more than with the Falcon, but it is still possible to use cover effectively. Having zero drop helps a lot against stationary targets; perhaps the easiest of the AV weapons to use; but this is balanced by the slow projectile speed which makes it trickier to lead shots, and the shorter overall range (300m instead of 400m).

Pounder has low damage, fast fire rate, slightly higher DPS BUT it has slower projectile speed (70m/s) AND higher gravity (2) than the Falcon, making it tricky to use. Almost double the drop at long range. The low damage, faster fire rate with 2 rounds in the mag mean that you have to expose yourself to enemy fire for a longer time, which is a serious handicap. True, the DPS is somewhat higher, but I’m not sure that the trade off is worth it. But the biggest handicap is the stupidly high projectile drop. The combination of slower velocity AND higher gravity really gimps the weapon, IMO.

All weapons have a 5 second projectile life, which effectively sets their range, and low splash damage and radius (thankfully).


Against infantry (this is at medium range; dead zone issues make them all pretty unreliable at close range, where AI weapons rightly dominate).

Falcon damage is 750, so first of all if you are running dual you have a guaranteed one salvo kill if you can get both shots on target. The projectile suffers from drop but is hard to spot, although it does leave a smoke trail, so your intended victim often has no chance to take evasive action. I’ve “sniped” infantry off Watchtower spires with Dual Falcons countless times :D.

Compare this with the Comet, which has 550 damage. Whilst a dual shot will sometimes kill infantry; this is not guaranteed as they may have certed into upgraded armour to increase their health. This is somewhat compensated for by the higher fire rate and zero drop, but another problem is that your intended target can see the slow moving and highly visible projectiles coming, so they have time to duck out of the way (I’ve definitely noticed this; people dodge the shots far more than with the Falcon).

Pounder has very low damage, only 375, so no chance of a kill (takes 3-4 hits). This is supposedly compensated for by having 2 shots in the mag, but the fire time is 0.5 seconds, so the chances are, your target will have reacted to the first shot before you have a chance to land the second. Also, the smoke trail from the first salvo obscures the target; it does not fully clear before you can take the second shot half a second later, so you are firing partially blind. The DPS, and splash damage DPS, is somewhat higher, but not significantly so; high burst damage is king when tackling infantry.

There is no point in us considering duels between AV MAXes; how often does this happen?

So I would rate them in order of effectiveness: Falcon, Comet, Pounder.


Now; what to do about it.

First of all, leave the Falcon as it is. This is a pretty effective weapon against armour AND infantry.

Now the Comet. I would consider giving the Comet the same damage and reload times as the Falcon, so the only differences are in the projectile velocity, trajectory and visibility. The Comet then gets the guaranteed one salvo infantry kill and the same ability to duck in and out of cover. The lack of projectile drop is balanced by the slower speed and the high visibility of the projectiles (this could perhaps be toned down slightly).

The Pounder is more of a challenge to balance. As a first step, I would give it the same velocity and gravity as the Falcon; this will help a lot. Furthermore, I would consider buffing the damage to say 450, and increasing the reload time so that it takes the same time to fire of the 2 round mag and reload as it does to fire one Falcon round and reload. Whilst 2 x 450 damage will only kill unupgraded infiltrators, this is better than nothing, and a dual hit will leave any infantry on perilously low health, enabling the Pounder user to finish them off with a single shot, or with splash damage. Somewhat more balanced than what we have now. Higher burst damage will help against armour too, and this regime would retain the Pounder’s slight DPS advantage, which is necessary to compensate for the reduced ability to duck in and out of cover .

[Ketadine]

The AV MAX will be (slightly imo) buffed today, in the upcoming update GU 7. I would prefer if they increased the AOE damage aria, not the damage itself, on all the AV MAX weapons so they at least make it a deterrent to infantry.

http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/server-maintenace-game-update-07.117226/

[Qwan]

Wow this is very informal. I tried using the Comet AV max version, its ok, and like most AV weapons, a rear shot to most tanks will give you more damage. The problem that I have with the Comet is the projectiles are just to slow, any target over 50 meters, moves out of the way very easily. Against infantry the Comet is close to useless, up close you do little to no damage, at a range they dodge the shot. The only real way for the comet to score a infantry kill is for the guy to be standing with a wall behind him and he gets hit with splash damage from both rounds. The reload time is almost pains taking, firing at moving targets is almost impossible. But I talk to the alot of guys who use the Vanu max and they say its horrible all around, especially the Comet version. But I will agree that the reload time should be up graded this way making adjustments when firing at moving targets can at least get you in the ball part.

[Koadster]

The AV MAX will be (slightly imo) buffed today, in the upcoming update GU 7. I would prefer if they increased the AOE damage aria, not the damage itself, on all the AV MAX weapons so they at least make it a deterrent to infantry.

http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/server-maintenace-game-update-07.117226/

Holy TR max nerf batman ! :mad: Cunts

[psijaka]

The AV MAX will be (slightly imo) buffed today, in the upcoming update GU 7. I would prefer if they increased the AOE damage aria, not the damage itself, on all the AV MAX weapons so they at least make it a deterrent to infantry.

http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/server-maintenace-game-update-07.117226/

Wow; somehow I missed this! Makes my thread somewhat redundant! Here are the relevant parts :

•NC NCM2 Falcon
◦Reload: 2.5 seconds changed to 2.4 seconds
◦Max Projectile Velocity: 80 changed to 100
◦Projectile Gravity: 1.5 changed to 0.5 (wow, this will mean hardly any drop!)
◦Direct Damage: 750 changed to 675 (still a one salvo infantry kill)

These changes will make the Falcon an even more efficient infantry slaughtering machine, and the increased velocity/reduced gravity will make tackling armour even more of a pleasure, despite the slight damage drop.

•VS Comet VM2
◦Projectile Velocity: 60 changed to 90
◦Magazine Size: 1 changed to 2
◦Direct Damage: 550 changed to 350
◦Short Reload: 1.5 seconds (Short reload previously didn't exist. Long reload remains the same at 1.7 seconds

WTF!? Didn't see that coming. I have a bad feeling about this; looks as if they have turned it into the old Pounder with zero drop. I'll give it a try but can't help feeling that they have gone in the wrong direction here.

•TR M3 Pounder HEG
◦Magazine Size: 2 changed to 4
◦Projectile Speed: 70 m/s changed to 100 m/s
◦Projectile Gravity: 2 changed to 10 (must be a typo; hopefully they mean 1) EDIT - AFTER TESTING IT LOOKS AS IF THE IDIOTS REALY HAVE INCREASED GRAVITY!
◦Direct Damage: 375 changed to 325
◦Short Reload: 1.25 seconds changed to 1.75 seconds
◦Long Reload: 1.5 seconds changed to 2 seconds

Interesting. they've turned it into a spamming machine. The velocity increase and gravity decrease will help a lot though. Really not sure how this will work out, but it is an improvement at least.

Interesting times; I can hardly wait to give them a try. But did they really need to improve the Falcon against infantry?

[psijaka]

Holy TR max nerf batman ! :mad: Cunts

I'm really not sure that it is a nerf. The velocity and gravity (the 10 must be a typo) buffs will help a lot, and having 4 rounds in the mag will mean that you can unleash a lot of pain and then duck away to reload. DPS is about the same. Interested to try this out.

The Comet is the one that I think has suffered the most from these changes.

[HiroshiChugi]

But did they really need to improve the Falcon against infantry?

Well, the NC MAX is supposed to be great vs infantry, I didn't think it needed an AI buff to the Falcon, but an AV buff... I always have a hard time vs vehicles even when trialing the dual Falcons...

[DirtyBird]

◦Direct Damage: 750 changed to 675 (still a one salvo infantry kill)
That all I needed to know :D

[psijaka]

That all I needed to know :D

Shorter reload time + faster projectile + lower gravity = slaughter time :D

[psijaka]

Well, the NC MAX is supposed to be great vs infantry, I didn't think it needed an AI buff to the Falcon, but an AV buff... I always have a hard time vs vehicles even when trialing the dual Falcons...

Well it is a buff and a minor nerf against armour. The increased velocity and lower gravity will help quite a bit at range, but the damage is slightly lower; I haven't done the maths but I wonder whether it will now take an extra shot to kill some vehicles?

[Sledgecrushr]

Looks like the tr got the best of the buffs again. They can do 2600 damage before a reload. Vs get 1400 damage per clip and nc get 1350 per clip.

[ChipMHazard]

Depends on whether or not the gravity change is a typo:p

[Juryrig]

Depends on whether or not the gravity change is a typo:p

Maybe it's right, but the projectiles now bounce :D

[psijaka]

Looks like the tr got the best of the buffs again. They can do 2600 damage before a reload. Vs get 1400 damage per clip and nc get 1350 per clip.

Yeah but with 4 rounds in the mag it's hard to duck in and out of cover when you are receiving fire. When using the Falcon I operate from cover, pop up, unleash a salvo, and then duck back down again before the tank has time to aim and fire. Then I change position a bit (whilst reloading) and repeat. Drove off 2 Magriders this way recently (killed 1); they didn't even get me with splash damage.

I will not be able to do this with 4 rounds to fire off; plenty of time for them to shoot a nova cannon round down my throat!

I'm not saying that what they have done to the Pounder isn't a decent buff, but of all the AV weapons, it was the one that needed it most. But it is wrong to base effectiveness purely on damage per mag, or even DPS.

[maradine]

I would have happily taken the velocity buff, or the magazine buff and damage nerf. But both? I didn't think the Comets were bad in the first place.

Frankly, I think the only MAX changes really needed were to completely nerf MAX AI damage to other MAXes.

[HiroshiChugi]

Maybe it's right, but the projectiles now bounce :D

Seriously? :huh::eek::huh::eek::huh::huh::huh:

[wasdie]

Looks like the tr got the best of the buffs again. They can do 2600 damage before a reload. Vs get 1400 damage per clip and nc get 1350 per clip.

Factor in the damage over time. The NC can put out that 1350 damage in a way less amount of time than the TR can.

I can often get away from a TR max. I don't see the same when infantry come up against a NC max.

[psijaka]

I would have happily taken the velocity buff, or the magazine buff and damage nerf. But both? I didn't think the Comets were bad in the first place.

Frankly, I think the only MAX changes really needed were to completely nerf MAX AI damage to other MAXes.

I worry about the changes to the Comet (I do play dual Comets on an alt char). The big issue is that there is now no chance of a "one salvo kill" when running dual; a big issue against infantry. Who is going to stand around and wait for the second salvo?

The velocity buff is good, but overall I fear that they have turned the Comet into a zero drop version of the old Pounder. Pretty lame, in other words. Maybe I am wrong; will test tonight.

EDIT - I take this back; the Comet is actually pretty decent. You can get 2 salvos away quickly, with a little recoil between shots. Only tested in VR so far but first impressions are that Comets have the potential to be pretty useful against infantry. We'll see.

BUT having reduced the damage they forgot to increase the ammo count!

[psijaka]

Factor in the damage over time. The NC can put out that 1350 damage in a way less amount of time than the TR can.

I can often get away from a TR max. I don't see the same when infantry come up against a NC max.

^ this. My victims often don't realise the danger they are in until they get 2 armour piercing rounds through the rib cage; dead. Really looking forward to playing the new Falcon with it's faster velocity and improved trajectory :D

[Falcon_br]

We complained with the pounders gravity and they increased it!?!? I feel like I al firing bricks now!
Well, we received more shots, I think the TR maxes will be LA with C4, just get close for the kill without flying and you will win,
But of course we need to field test it, just looking for the status we can't get the right idea of what changed.

[psijaka]

We complained with the pounders gravity and they increased it!?!? I feel like I al firing bricks now!
Well, we received more shots, I think the TR maxes will be LA with C4, just get close for the kill without flying and you will win,
But of course we need to field test it, just looking for the status we can't get the right idea of what changed.

I honestly thought that this was a typo, but they really have increased it.

F***ING IDIOTS!

Unusable at anything other than close range. I'm giving up on Pounders.

[DirtyBird]

It might be just the huge flaming orbs we now fire and were never mentioned but it feels slower even tho the projectile speed was changed.
Will take a little getting use to but I didnt mind a little bit of the arc we use to have.

[psijaka]

Well I've tested out all 3 now, running as Dual.

Verdict.

Falcon is now even more deadly against infantry. Still a one salvo kill and better velocity and trajectory. Happy times ahead! Edit - the only downside is that the projectiles are now highly visible, giving the target a little time to dodge. Seems fair enough though.

Comet is better than I expected; the fire time between the 2 rounds is quite short, and the lack of drop and higher velocity should make Comets quite efficient at killing infantry (although nowhere as good as Dual Falcons). There is a little recoil to deal with, but not much. However, having reduced the damage per round they forgot to increase the ammo count. Doh. Despite this I'll be giving the new Comets a decent trial.

BUT they've completely and utterly ruined the Pounder; not that it was any good in the first place. What I thought was a typo for the new gravity is in fact the correct figure. Increased from 2 to 10! Utterly useless, and I'm not using Pounders any longer. Misery.

So congratulations SoE, you've buffed the strongest AV MAX weapon against infantry, and nerfed the weakest. What a joke; if my main char was TR I would be fuming. Happily for me Dual Falcons is my favourite loadout.

[hammsammich]

I run a TR max and yes, the pounders are even more worthless. I just don't understand the decision to do that.

[Qwan]

Liking the new Vanu max comet feel now, still havent had a chance to take on a tank yet but, Ill go to the Virtual training ground and see how it feels. Reload is better and magazines size is alot nicer. Thanks guys I might acutally use my max a little more.

[DirtyBird]

Really not liking the change to the Falcons, with those fireballs causing a total eclipse I can hardly see my target after I fire.

[Falcon_br]

I heard they nerfed all av maxes weapons so in GU 08 when the maxes will receive an "update", they will receive new anti armor weapons.
If they made the old ones good, nobody would buy the new ones.
And everyone know now that they always nerf the old item one update back, because if they had nerfed the old pump action and released the new one at the same time, people would had gone mad, like I did.

[Stardouser]

While I am not currently a TR player I am willing to say that a longer magazine doesn't make up for the arc.

That said, av max is still offensively a lot weaker and less capable than heavy assault, except maybe comets. Is the armor of maxes justification for not being as hard hitting as HA?

[Dodgy Commando]

I wonder if the new Falcon visual is in preparation for the NS grenade launcher, which the old visual would fit well.

I was surprised at first when I fired my Falcon after the update.

[psijaka]

I wonder if the new Falcon visual is in preparation for the NS grenade launcher, which the old visual would fit well.

I was surprised at first when I fired my Falcon after the update.

I think that the new visual is in fact a subtle nerf; must be easier to see the projectiles coming; gives infantry a chance to dodge if they are quick.

Not that I'm complaining; velocity is up and gravity down, so landing shots on tanks and Sunderers at range is easier.

[DirtyBird]

After firing the old Falcon 87,000 times I sincerely hope the new changes to the AV MAX gives you the option to go back to what we had.

•NC NCM2 Falcon
◦Reload: 2.5 seconds changed to 2.4 seconds (10th of a second, a lot if you are running the 100m but reloading a MAX is nothing)
◦Max Projectile Velocity: 80 changed to 100 ( Feels like 10 not 100)
◦Projectile Gravity: 1.5 changed to 0.5 (probably the only buff the Falcon got)
◦Direct Damage: 750 changed to 675 (could understand this if it didnt feel so slow and didnt fire giant orbs aka VS oh and in game its says 700)

The new changes to the AV MAX will predictably be to encourage you to spend more cash on something new (new meaning they took it away in the first place).
We also intend on adding indirect fire/grenade launcher options for the MAX

Here's a novel idea, be creative and add some cert options to the damn things and allow attachements?
They currently only allow Camo as an option.
How hard would it be to make an Optic, Barrel, Rail and Ammo option for the Falcon?
Or does that not fill the coffers so its not a viable path to take?

[psijaka]

I honestly don't think that we in the NC have much to complain about. It's the TR that have been screwed over big time; the new Pounder (gravity 10) is ....words fail me.

[psijaka]

I've spend some time now with the new Comets, both in game and in VR, and I do think that they have potential against armour and infantry.

One thing in particular caught my attention when I was testing them out in VR; they are spaced much closer together than dual Falcons are. This doesn't sound of any great significance until you consider what happens when you shoot at a stationary infantry target at close range.

With dual Falcons the rounds can pass either side of the target when you aim carefully at the centre of the chest. To get around this, you can fire the Falcons alternately at close range, the left Falcon aimed a bit to the right, then shift aim a bit to the left before firing the right Falcon. Both shots then land; result - kill, but tricky to pull off during CQC.

With dual Comets, both rounds usually hit due to the close spacing of the guns. It's not a kill, of course, but there are 2 rounds in each mag so you can finish the job quickly.

Plus the indirect damage is 200, which is proportionally a lot higher than the 250 of the Falcon - possible to deal out 800 indirect damage in one reload cycle with Dual Comets; only 500 with dual Falcons.

Not looked at the spacing or indirect damage of Pounders yet. In fact, I've barely touched them since they suffered the appalling gravity increase.

[DirtyBird]

More possible changes to the Falcon damage?
Remembering the last patch changes stated:
◦Direct Damage: 750 changed to 675
even tho in game you can see its currently saying 700.

And I'd love to see someone analyse the muzzle velocity between the Falcon(100m/s) and the Raven(85m/s).
Certainly looks to the eye that the Raven is faster yet the stats say its slower.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/62192273/falcon%20may%202nd%20live%20server.jpghttps://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/62192273/falcon%20may%202nd%20test%20server.jpghttps://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/62192273/raven%20may%202nd%20test%20server.jpg

[DirtyBird]

Found a simple test, equip a Raven and A Falcon in the VR.
Fire both at once, the Raven(85m/s) still looks faster than the Falcon(100m/s).

[psijaka]

Will have to do that test. My impression was that the Raven was slower, but I didn't fire them together.

What I did find out whilst VR testing dual Ravens is that they are a one salvo kill to infantry. This contradicts the in game stats, which show damage = 490. I tested this dozens and dozens of times, and consistently get the 2SK.

Not sure what to think about the Raven yet; if indeed they are an intended 2SK then they are insanely OP against infantry even at long range. Their downside is that you need top keep your crosshair on target to get the hit, so no ducking in and out of cover when taking on a tank. And the burst damage is lower.

Edit - just spotted your Falcon screenshot from the test server. 850 damage; yes please. :D

[psijaka]

Tested out the Raven alongside the Falcon; the Raven definitely has a higher velocity.

Stood on the corner of the VR base, and fired both simultaneously at the top half of the cliffs behind the VS Liberator in the distance; Raven projectile hits first every time.