Infiltrator Recon Device XP Coming Soon

[Hamma]

Not sure if anyone posted this..

https://twitter.com/muldoonx9/status/327600919732695041

https://twitter.com/muldoonx9/status/327853591001964544

[ThatGoatGuy]

About damn time.

[ChipMHazard]

Good on you, Alex:D

[Muldoon]

Good on you, Alex:D

Aww yeah. Thanks!


Btw, tons of answered questions here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Planetside/comments/1d5z78/hoffman_the_recon_tool_for_infiltrators_will/

[WSNeo]

Will this apply to vehicles with scout radars as well? If so I'm going to be SOOOOO happy

[Helwyr]

Radar needs an epic nerf, especially Scout Radar. It doesn't need to be rewarded with xp on top of everything else.

[WSNeo]

Radar needs an epic nerf, especially Scout Radar. It doesn't need to be rewarded with xp on top of everything else.

I'm not going to lie, you're the first person to say that radar, of all things, needs a nerf. What is wrong with radar?

Edit: Looking at your posting history it looks like you spend a lot of time as an infiltrator. So I'm guessing that may be a biased opinion.

[RSphil]

thats cool. it needs it tbh.

[camycamera]

at least makes it a bit moar useful :D

[Helwyr]

I'm not going to lie, you're the first person to say that radar, of all things, needs a nerf.

The latest thread on the official forums complaining about radar. (it's not the first) here (http://forums.station.sony.com/ps2/index.php?threads/does-scout-radar-need-a-counter.118285/)

What is wrong with radar?

1) Radar devalues player skill by providing a mechanical player crutch replacing the need for situational awareness and actual player observation.

2) Radar favors zerg play, removing many of the advantages of stealth, ambush, flanking etc that a smaller number of players might use to overcome a larger group. It devalues tactical gameplay.

3) Radar largely nullifies the the core concept of the Infiltrator class, and there's no counter aside from 12 seconds of cloaking. It also impacts the Light Assault class devaluing it's ability to flank the enemy.

4) Vehicles have a counter to radar in the form of "stealth", no such option exists for Infantry. Yet it is Infantry that should have the lowest battlefield profile, not vehicles. This is needed for balance between vehicles and Infantry.

5) Scout Radar is available to everyone via ATVs, last time I checked you don't even need to be on it for it to work. It is actually superior in just about every way to Infiltrator's class tool, the Recon Dart. Its permanent, no ammo limitations, does not give your position away (can even combine Radar and Stealth on an ATV), costs less certs to max out, can be used by every class but a Max.

6) Scout Radar on ESFs is combining the best detection with the most mobile unit in the game, that also does not lack for firepower and defense.

7) Why use Suppressed weapons when there's radar everywhere?

8) Why use Camo when there's Radar everywhere?

9) Radar makes for a dumbed down game.


Edit: Looking at your posting history it looks like you spend a lot of time as an infiltrator. So I'm guessing that may be a biased opinion.

So my opinion is biased, but yours is not? Is that what your saying? :lol: Everyone has a bias to one thing or another on this forum... you are clearly biased towards radar from your response to my post, I don't even need to look at your posting history to figure that out.

[RSphil]

id like to see radar jammers as an option for vehicles as well then. this would make thing interesting on the battlefield. or even mobile ones that engineers could deploy like turrets now.

[Timealude]

I'm not going to lie, you're the first person to say that radar, of all things, needs a nerf. What is wrong with radar?

Edit: Looking at your posting history it looks like you spend a lot of time as an infiltrator. So I'm guessing that may be a biased opinion.

while i dont think it needs a nerf, I think the recon device needs a buff rather then a forced reward to use it, even though its welcomed. It needs something to set it apart from flashes that use scout radar.

[AThreatToYou]

1) Radar devalues player skill by providing a mechanical player crutch replacing the need for situational awareness and actual player observation.


It also increases the value of player strategy by giving them more choices. Incentives will just make the metagame value of XP reflect the value of the strategy better. Keep in mind that everything in this game is done by players. Someone had to bring that sensor and someone has a chance to destroy it.

Now, on it decreasing the value of situational awareness, I guess so. But the players also have to be aware of the option of taking out the radar and removing the enemy's advantage. I'll take nil on that one: no increase no decrease, just different situations.

2) Radar favors zerg play, removing many of the advantages of stealth, ambush, flanking etc that a smaller number of players might use to overcome a larger group. It devalues tactical gameplay.


I'll admit it does remove many factors of stealth and ambush, but only at so far of a range. And also, knowing where your opponent is all the time doesn't suddenly devalue tactical gameplay. It just makes the player's choices more obvious and thus gives more chances to react. In some cases, it might even promote tactical decisions because players will have more information to think about.

3) Radar largely nullifies the the core concept of the Infiltrator class, and there's no counter aside from 12 seconds of cloaking. It also impacts the Light Assault class devaluing it's ability to flank the enemy.

I think you're taking the extent too far, but it does counter infiltrators a bit. On Light Assaults, too.

I remember in beta that there was a suit modification that would allow you to never show up on the minimap unless physically spotted. We really should have that if we are going to have radar.

9) Radar makes for a dumbed down game.
It adds a complexity that can remove other complexities. Adding strategies to a game doesn't simplify it. Now, should radar-equipped units be themselves more visible on radar? Yes; we can argue over the mechanics but having a radar system in-game is good because it can add another layer of depth to the meta of attacking or defending a base. It was always a part of the set-up of defense in PS1 to place motion sensors basically everywhere you could shove them.

[Helwyr]

It also increases the value of player strategy by giving them more choices. Incentives will just make the metagame value of XP reflect the value of the strategy better. Keep in mind that everything in this game is done by players. Someone had to bring that sensor and someone has a chance to destroy it.[...]

It adds a complexity that can remove other complexities. Adding strategies to a game doesn't simplify it.[...]

Having access to Scout Radar is trivial, it's cheap, readily available, and shared with everyone in your faction. There's no great player strategies going on here.

What does it add in terms of complexity in being able to see all your opponents on the minimap? This sort of implementation of radar mechanics is a pure reduction of player strategy choices. Seeing everyone on the mini map is the removal of player options and the impact of certain player skill on gameplay.

Radar is to a player's situational awareness, observation, and concealment/evasion skills as aimbots are to a player's twitch skills.

I'm all for Intel gathering tools so long as there's counters, but in the end it should be a player's ability and the way they utilize that ability that has the largest outcome on game play... not game mechanic crutches like radar and aimbots that do all the work for the player.

[AThreatToYou]

Having access to Scout Radar is trivial, it's cheap, readily available, and shared with everyone in your faction. There's no great player strategies going on here.

You're free to argue that, I'd say, but I would be asking more to improve the strategical choice of Scout Radar. Making it more rare and perhaps even restricted to squads or restricted to players only so close to the scout radar, having the scout radar active only when manning the vehicle, or things like that. Right now though I don't see very much scout radar. Adding this incentive will also let us decide whether or not its OP so we can start doing these things.

[Der Richter]

??
ich kapier nix

[WSNeo]

while i dont think it needs a nerf, I think the recon device needs a buff rather then a forced reward to use it, even though its welcomed. It needs something to set it apart from flashes that use scout radar.

Agreed, maybe like a toggle that blinds an area on radar.


4) Vehicles have a counter to radar in the form of "stealth", no such option exists for Infantry. Yet it is Infantry that should have the lowest battlefield profile, not vehicles. This is needed for balance between vehicles and Infantry.

Certing and equiping Vehicle Stealth comes at the expense of losing defensive effects such as Composite Armor and Mine Guard, and Nanite Auto Repair (which is OP when maxed out).

That's a pretty big thing balance-wise if you want to choose stealth over survivability options.


5) Scout Radar is available to everyone via ATVs, last time I checked you don't even need to be on it for it to work. It is actually superior in just about every way to Infiltrator's class tool, the Recon Dart. Its permanent, no ammo limitations, does not give your position away (can even combine Radar and Stealth on an ATV), costs less certs to max out, can be used by every class but a Max.

This is true, and the fact that it is more effective than the Recon tool is indeed a problem I agree. However ATVs are easily heard and distinguished, and unless certed in to stealth are quickly hunted down and destroyed. Maybe it should be changed to where you're required to be on the vehicle for the radar to work. Similar to the Mosquito's passive radar ability in PS1.


6) Scout Radar on ESFs is combining the best detection with the most mobile unit in the game, that also does not lack for firepower and defense.

I actually and regularly use the Scout Radar (Rank 3) on my Scythe this is why I'm personally excited for this as I've always been a fan of Information Warfare so yes, I am biased in the sense that I feel that this game needs to give more information.

I personally LOVED the Command Circuit (http://guides.freddyshouse.com/tribes2/playingtribes_commandcircuit.php) in Tribes 2 http://i.imgur.com/7Z9E7.png

As a tradeoff for having Scout Radar, I have no flares for A2A/G2A missiles. Also there's no reason to have stealth on an ESF unless you're going to completely max it out for the increased lockon time, which I feel is not worth it as the best pilots like Harvester (https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618036410785/stats)/Karzi (http://www.planetside-universe.com/character-5428010618036410785.php) don't even use A2A missiles that often meaning that once you're engaged by another ESF you're already at a severe disadvantage.

Also I cannot tell you how many times I've been tagged by decimators while hovering over an outpost providing radar cover for people on the ground.

7) Why use Suppressed weapons when there's radar everywhere?

You'd be surprised at the amount of people that do not constantly look at their radar until they hear gunfire. Also during midfield battles radar is not always there, so stealth suppressors and muzzle flash reduction (I can't think of the name of the addon right now) are very useful tool.

8) Why use Camo when there's Radar everywhere?

Camo is intended for reduced visibility.

9) Radar makes for a dumbed down game.

The game is only dumbed down for the side with radar, smart players will then have to play more cautious and be more aware of what's going on in their area. Even then, once you're under a radar system you should be given an indicator ala PS1 so that you can react accordingly.

Keep in mind that implants (http://planetside.station.sony.com/howto/implants.vm)are coming back. If they introduce Silent Run as it's currently is in PS1, you will be invisible to all radar as long as it's activated, but can still be detected by motion sensors (which have yet to be intoduced in PS2 yet).


So my opinion is biased, but yours is not? Is that what your saying? :lol: Everyone has a bias to one thing or another on this forum... you are clearly biased towards radar from your response to my post, I don't even need to look at your posting history to figure that out.


The obvious jubilation in my response should show that there's obvious bias in my response as I would like to be rewarded for providing infantry on the ground radar cover (if this is implemented for vehicle Scout Radar as well).

Edit: I also forgot to mention that radar helps IMMENSELY with base defense, a problem that a lot of people have been complaining about since the game was available to the public.

[Dodgy Commando]

Having access to Scout Radar is trivial, it's cheap, readily available, and shared with everyone in your faction. There's no great player strategies going on here.

Its not exactly shared with everyone. It only broadcasts to allies that are within the radar's range. Getting it to a comfortable, easily-used range is not cheap certs-wise, especially on ESF's whose mobility is also a hindrance to providing effective Scout Radar coverage to allies (at lower levels of the cert). It certainly isn't all-encompassing by any means.

What does it add in terms of complexity in being able to see all your opponents on the minimap? This sort of implementation of radar mechanics is a pure reduction of player strategy choices. Seeing everyone on the mini map is the removal of player options and the impact of certain player skill on gameplay.

Radar is to a player's situational awareness, observation, and concealment/evasion skills as aimbots are to a player's twitch skills.

It clarifies a fairly chaotic and constantly changing environment, these factors effectively being amplified in a game of PS2's scope. It makes the game more accessible, accelerating certain phases compared to IRL (e.g requires less manpower, or indeed none at all, to scout enemy positions or set up dedicated overwatch during battle). Such tasks are rather thankless in a game, despite being crucial. Radar exists for gameplay reasons and fit well considering PS2's F2P nature.

You can argue it dumbs down player skill, reducing the need for situational awareness, but its a question of point of view at the end of the day. There's already a lot going on, you still need to keep an eye out for the enemy on your minimap as well as your screen. I don't think it limits tactical choices, there's lots to play around with through Radar: it doesn't detect cloaked players; infiltrators have decoy grenades (their actual utility is subject for another thread); and the enemy can seek and destroy your radar assets as well as deploy their own. Plenty of tactics going on there IMO.

Besides, PS2 is set in the future! Even today's armies strive for such an advantage; knowing is half the battle.

I disagree strongly with the aimbot comparison, but once again it boils down to opinion. I'll maintain the gameplay argument as the strongest reason for Radar's existence in PS2 and other games. It makes them generally more fun and accessible. If you want more realism (and I enjoy this type of game too, when I have the time), PS2 is not the right game. I'll agree that the absence of Radar mechanics also definitely puts forward a player's skill in terms of situational awareness and tactics, though.

I'm all for Intel gathering tools so long as there's counters, but in the end it should be a player's ability and the way they utilize that ability that has the largest outcome on game play... not game mechanic crutches like radar and aimbots that do all the work for the player.

I would welcome counter-intelligence mechanics too. Once again, I don't see it as a crutch though, rather a tool (accessible to all) which can also show your skill.

As for rewarding the use of the Sensor Dart (along with the other forms of Radar), I also welcome the change. I believe it is an underutilised piece of equipment. The change in itself will not prove unfair in terms of XP gains IMO, the rates have already increased quite a bit with several changes that have gone through.

Just my opinions of course, thanks for reading.

[Helwyr]

[...]Making it more rare and perhaps even restricted to squads or restricted to players only so close to the scout radar, having the scout radar active only when manning the vehicle, or things like that. Right now though I don't see very much scout radar. Adding this incentive will also let us decide whether or not its OP so we can start doing these things.

If you wanted to limit Scout Radar by making it more rare and more tied in with actual player scouting I would suggest at least limiting its effects to the pilot/driver of the vehicle. This would mean they would have to relay enemy positions/movement to team mates, or put another way proactively scout and use teamwork/communication to share and utilize such intel.


Certing and equiping Vehicle Stealth comes at the expense of losing defensive effects such as Composite Armor and Mine Guard, and Nanite Auto Repair (which is OP when maxed out).
[...]
That's a pretty big thing balance-wise if you want to choose stealth over survivability options.


Yes I understand vehicles have to make sacrifices to get the "Stealth" option, my point is that Infantry don't even get that option.

A "Stealth" armor mod needs to be introduced for Infantry (not just Infiltrators). Like vehicles the level 1 stealth should remove them from Radar. Since there's no "lock on" weapons that target Infantry, a reduction in the effectiveness of Q spotting and/or Thermal/IR should be rewarded at higher cert levels of Infantry Stealth.

[WSNeo]

Yes I understand vehicles have to make sacrifices to get the "Stealth" option, my point is that Infantry don't even get that option.

A "Stealth" armor mod needs to be introduced for Infantry (not just Infiltrators). Like vehicles the level 1 stealth should remove them from Radar. Since there's no "lock on" weapons that target Infantry, a reduction in the effectiveness of Q spotting and/or Thermal/IR should be rewarded at higher cert levels of Infantry Stealth.

That would be the Silent Run implant, and I've been told that Q spotting someone displays the spotter's location on the map as well so there's another traeoff.

[Falcon_br]

The recon dart sensor never detected anything for me, and I know that this bug happens to other people too.

[Timealude]

The recon dart sensor never detected anything for me, and I know that this bug happens to other people too.

there is a bug currently that i get that it will stop pinging the map..hopefully that will be fixed the same time this goes in, or sooner.