New NC AV Max One Shots Infantry

[Tom Peters]

So... these things seemed really neat. But then I got into the game and got one-shot by it as an infantry. Twice. Certainly it wasn't a fluke the second time. It said I had taken damage from both arms, but I still call it a one-shot because I had absolutely no chance to respond.

Do ALL of the new AV Max weapons one-shot infantry like that? If so, that's ridiculous, because point blank you have absolutely no chance.

I really hate this about all types of AV projectile weapons; they're just too easy to use to kill infantry with. This applies to all rocket launchers, the halbred, the fury...

But this being an AV MAX specifically ticks me off.

If I equipped my dual pounders, I would have nowhere near the same results, even if the infantry are point blank. Not to mention that the pounders suck at what they're designed at as well.

[simmi]

TR And VS maxes have been doing that to me too. They bring those AV maxes into towers and use them as AI maxes. This is pretty ridiculous

[Canaris]

they gave tanks that new resistence to most weapons less versus AV weapons, they really should have something similar for infantry vs AV weapons. Trade offs plain and simple like PS1.

"oh how can a person take a full AV high damage round"?, simple Infantry shields should be attuned to be more anti-vehicle explosive resistant.

[Tom Peters]

they gave tanks that new resistence to most weapons less versus AV weapons, they really should have something similar for infantry vs AV weapons. Trade offs plain and simple like PS1.

"oh how can a person take a full AV high damage round"?, simple Infantry shields should be attuned to be more anti-vehicle explosive resistant.

Exactly!

And you're right, that new resist thing seemed to be a step in the right direction for keeping each weapon in line versus every unit type.

[NewSith]

Didn't you know you can oneshot infantry with dual classic AV? Nothing's changed, really.

[Tom Peters]

Didn't you know you can oneshot infantry with dual classic AV? Nothing's changed, really.

Something has definitely changed. The Raven fires how many missiles each versus the default NC AV?

And I'm preeeetty sure the pounder doesn't do that, but I could be wrong.

[NewSith]

Something has definitely changed. The Raven fires how many missiles each versus the default NC AV?

And I'm preeeetty sure the pounder doesn't do that, but I could be wrong.

When was the last time you tried the NC AV? It recieved some quite neat changes I tell you...

[psijaka]

None of the MAX AV weapons "one shot" infantry. (Edit - I haven't tried the new VS AV weapon fully charged, so I could be wrong here)

BUT the Falcon (the original NC AV weapon) has always been able to 2 shot infantry, so if you are running dual it is a "one salvo" kill; guaranteed if you land both shots. Somewhat balanced by the projectile drop and low splash damage, as well as the slow fire rate. And it's pretty difficult to use for CQC.

The new NC Raven also "one salvo" kills infantry (tested dozens and dozens of times in VR). But according to the in game stats, it does 490 damage, so 2 hits shouldn't get the kill (except infils) - something wrong here, and SoE MUST reduce the actual damage as Dual Ravens are insanely OP against infantry at medium and long range as they are now as they are super accurate.

I feel for the TR with the lame Pounder, but at least the Fracture looks promising.

[Tom Peters]

The new NC Raven also "one salvo" kills infantry (tested dozens and dozens of times in VR). But according to the in game stats, it does 490 damage, so 2 hits shouldn't get the kill - something wrong here, and SoE MUST reduce the actual damage as Dual Ravens are insanely OP against infantry at medium and long range as they are now as they are super accurate.


I knew I couldn't have been the only one to notice how crazy these things are versus infantry.

Pretty typical for new weapons, though. Being ridiculously over the top.

[psijaka]

I knew I couldn't have been the only one to notice how crazy these things are versus infantry.

Pretty typical for new weapons, though. Being ridiculously over the top.

I don't know why they have such difficulty with basic balance issues like this. Crazy to make a super accurate laser guided and moderately high fire rate AV weapon a one salvo kill.

Damage should be reduced below 490; say 440 or less IMO, to prevent one salvo infiltrator kills. You shouldn't be able to "easy mode" snipe with an AV weapon whilst being virtually invulnerable to most return fire in a MAX suit; simple as that.

Edit - Falcon currently does a whopping 850 damage, according to the in game stats. Almost a one shot kill, but not quite. But splash damage has been reduced substantially, which is a good call. Makes the Falcon more useful against armour, whilst not really changing it's effectiveness against infantry. Increasing the benefits of a direct hit whilst reducing the benefits of a near miss rewards skill and is the sort of change that I approve of.

[Assist]

VS Vortex MAX is hilarious. No idea why someone would ever use the Comets now.

[Chaff]

VS Maxes seemed extra deadly when I played my VS, or when I went against them with my primary (TR). I did have some brutally nice kills of my own with the Fracture ..... so, I assume the new stuff (Max) is all universally a bit OP (only for a limited time).

I enjoy a good conspiracy theorey. However, it's plausible that SOE puts out new weapons (or vehicles) that lean towards the OP-side ......once the bitchin' mountain starts to grow significantly past sales of said new item ....... BOOM ....... the Nerf cannon puts the lastest OP cash cow back into the somewhat more equally balanced (counterable) weapon/vehicle pool ...... seems to be the M.O. of SOE's business model. With a Massive "FREE"-to-Play game ..... they got$ta $queeze the revenue stream$ as best they can. $eem$ they are.

[Gonefshn]

Checked this out in the VR room.

The TR Fracture launchers take two volleys to kill infantry not one. However given the accuracy and rate of fire hitting a second shot is easy.

the Vanu max cold not even kill an infantry with an entire clip of regular shots from both weapons. And even charged shots don't kill them. In fact I don't even think 2 volleys of charged shots took them out.

The NC max one shots and is way too powerful. The TR max is still insanely good against infantry. The Vanu max new weapons are garbage against infantry.

[Whiteagle]

I feel for the TR with the lame Pounder, but at least the Fracture looks promising.
Let's put it this way... It's not the Pounder, so it's a straight up improvement!

[Emperor Newt]

VS Vortex MAX is hilarious. No idea why someone would ever use the Comets now.
Yep. I just sit there watching my fellow max players with awe. Comets are pretty shit compared to vortex.

[psijaka]

Tested out the new VS AV weapon, the Vortex.

Takes 12 uncharged shots to kill infantry in VR, or 6 salvos if running dual. But it is super quick firing and very accurate, so it should be possible to lay down quite a barrage.

The charge up ability underwhelms me though; more trouble than it is worth, IMO.

[Emperor Newt]

Although it should be mentioned that about 10 of those shots are required to take out the personal shields. The base health only takes two to three shots. So combined with other infantry damage it seems to be pretty usefull as an ai weapon too (as kind of a last resort choice. a dedicated ai weapon will be way better, as it should be)
I would actually say that they seem to be the only new av max weapon that is in a pretty good spot. Now they only need to find a new place for the comet.

[Shogun]

the TTK in this game is just too fast!

it doesn´t allow to properly balance a combined arms game.
if ttk was longer, there would be enough space to stretch out different weapon damage.

but since almost every weapon can kill everything in 2-4 shots, there isn´t enough room to make the weapons different enough.

[Emperor Newt]

Sure. But I have given up hope on that.
They wanted low ttk, now they have to deal with the problems it causes.

[Sledgecrushr]

I am absolutely in love with the new Ravens. Being able to lay down some sustained fire over a good distance just seems so cool. So this is kind of what being a tr or vs max is like.

[Whiteagle]

I am absolutely in love with the new Ravens. Being able to lay down some sustained fire over a good distance just seems so cool. So this is kind of what being a tr or vs max is like.
Being a VS MAX more like it, we Terran's didn't have a long range weapon until the Fracture...

[Dragonskin]

I've played with all the new AV max weapons at least in the VR.

The raven is great... too powerful actually. You can pull off some crazy shots, but the ease of killing infantry is nuts. You can 1 shot infantry with a hit to the head. Having a mobile AV MANA turret is great. I just think the damage to infantry needs to be toned down. Getting killed by them as infantry from behind cover is nuts. All you need to do is figure out how to curve it over things. These things are annoying loud. Trying to take a dug in NC facility is so freakishly loud now.

The Fracture is pretty good. I wouldn't say it is awesome, but it's a lot better than the pounder. Fast firing dumbfire rockets... always good. Once the lockdown comes out they will be pretty strong. It's cool seeing all the red rockets streaming out from bases now.

The Vortex... I honestly don't see why you would use this. Travel time is nice, but other than that the comet feels about the same. They make decent MAX killers I guess. I still like my Lancer way more than the vortex. Maybe I am missing something. It seems like the worst of the 3 to me.

[Snydenthur]

I've played with all the new AV max weapons at least in the VR.

The raven is great... too powerful actually. You can pull off some crazy shots, but the ease of killing infantry is nuts. You can 1 shot infantry with a hit to the head. Having a mobile AV MANA turret is great. I just think the damage to infantry needs to be toned down. Getting killed by them as infantry from behind cover is nuts. All you need to do is figure out how to curve it over things. These things are annoying loud. Trying to take a dug in NC facility is so freakishly loud now.

I highly doubt you can reliably shoot someone from behind the cover. I haven't tried them, but I have some experience with AV mana turret. Even a vehicle behind a cover is very hard to hit, hitting an infantry would be just very random luck. I think I was hit by raven once. Only one missile though and I doubt I would've died even if there was two. I think I even had a bit of shield left after the hit.

Only thing op about them is the noise. That's why I rather fight against tr if possible. Ravens are so popular right now, that it feels like constant sound in any enemy squads detected+ nc fights.

[almalino]

I highly doubt you can reliably shoot someone from behind the cover. I haven't tried them, but I have some experience with AV mana turret. Even a vehicle behind a cover is very hard to hit, hitting an infantry would be just very random luck. I think I was hit by raven once. Only one missile though and I doubt I would've died even if there was two. I think I even had a bit of shield left after the hit.

Only thing op about them is the noise. That's why I rather fight against tr if possible. Ravens are so popular right now, that it feels like constant sound in any enemy squads detected+ nc fights.

I tried Raven in VR and it is hard to hit anything with it if you have not fired them straight into the target and need to curve. I mean it is hard to hit even stationary targets 100 meters from you if you need to curve. It is not OP imho.

[Chewy]

I tried Raven in VR and it is hard to hit anything with it if you have not fired them straight into the target and need to curve. I mean it is hard to hit even stationary targets 100 meters from you if you need to curve. It is not OP imho.

The Raven needs some good knowing of the weapon to be great. Like you said at range it can get hard to hit much of anything. Ravens only have a max flight range of about 350m and act like the Phoenix where it auto kills at max range. You have to not only track but lead targets depending on their movement.

Im not hating the Raven, just saying that they take a bit of skill to land shots reliably with you needing to know travel time, distance, turn speed, and when to lead or follow. Im not ready to be good with them just yet, still need more time with them.

[Frotang]

Wow anyone who thinks Raven Av needs a nerf has obviously never used the Fracture, lets take some stats from the lovely site ps2-stats.com which shows total stats numbers for all weapons.

NCM3 Raven - Players used: 6802 Total playtime: 971H 57M Total Kills: 3641 Destroyed Vehicles: 1877

MR1 Fracture - Players used: 7642 Total playtime: 727H 28M Total Kills: 8407 Destroyed Vehicles: 3889

I took the most used arm of the Raven and compared it to the least used arm of the Fracture and these are the results, you can decide for yourselves but it's pretty easy to see that if there is in fact any MAX AV weapon that is OP it would undoubtedly be the TR Fracture. Also the Vortex stats are just laughable, that thing is so underwhelming it's not even funny, but then it becomes funny again once you realize you don't play VS.

[Brusi]

Anti-Infantry is definitely better, although taking one of each arm is pretty effective.

Seem's fine, imo. Then again, i almost never get killed by them as infantry (or even in a vehicle) and i rack up plenty of kills with them as a MAX Unit.

so, perhaps i'm biased.

[Tom Peters]

Wow anyone who thinks Raven Av needs a nerf has obviously never used the Fracture, lets take some stats from the lovely site ps2-stats.com which shows total stats numbers for all weapons.

NCM3 Raven - Players used: 6802 Total playtime: 971H 57M Total Kills: 3641 Destroyed Vehicles: 1877

MR1 Fracture - Players used: 7642 Total playtime: 727H 28M Total Kills: 8407 Destroyed Vehicles: 3889

I took the most used arm of the Raven and compared it to the least used arm of the Fracture and these are the results, you can decide for yourselves but it's pretty easy to see that if there is in fact any MAX AV weapon that is OP it would undoubtedly be the TR Fracture. Also the Vortex stats are just laughable, that thing is so underwhelming it's not even funny, but then it becomes funny again once you realize you don't play VS.

You obviously haven't payed much attention to this thread.

This is specifically about the new AV versus infantry.

And regardless of that, those are just total kills, it doesn't tell much. But it does show the infantry to vehicle destroyed ratios, which is higher for the Ravens, meaning they rape infantry.

I think I was hit by raven once. Only one missile though and I doubt I would've died even if there was two. I think I even had a bit of shield left after the hit.

No, the second Raven hit would have killed you. One Raven arm does 52%, while the other does 48%. I have no idea why one arm does more damage than the other, but this is how I've seen the damage breakdown come up every time I got instagibbed by them.

You got hit by the lesser damaging arm, which is why you had 4% of your shield still left.

Anti-Infantry is definitely better, although taking one of each arm is pretty effective.

Seem's fine, imo. Then again, i almost never get killed by them as infantry (or even in a vehicle) and i rack up plenty of kills with them as a MAX Unit.

so, perhaps i'm biased.

You are NC, of course you never get killed by them... >.>

[Dragonskin]

I highly doubt you can reliably shoot someone from behind the cover. I haven't tried them, but I have some experience with AV mana turret. Even a vehicle behind a cover is very hard to hit, hitting an infantry would be just very random luck. I think I was hit by raven once. Only one missile though and I doubt I would've died even if there was two. I think I even had a bit of shield left after the hit.

Only thing op about them is the noise. That's why I rather fight against tr if possible. Ravens are so popular right now, that it feels like constant sound in any enemy squads detected+ nc fights.

I lack the video capturing for good quality vids, but I am tempted to go to the VR just to show you what I mean. You can pull off things with the Raven that the turret can't do because unlike the turret you can swivel 360 degrees. Basically you fire 2 ravens behind you and up in the air, turn quickly and point at whatever you want to hit and the rockets come down at the target from the air.

Something you can't do with a turret... due to swivel limits.

Hmm... managed to get some footage. Will upload it to youtube tonight and link it tomorrow.

[psijaka]

No, the second Raven hit would have killed you. One Raven arm does 52%, while the other does 48%. I have no idea why one arm does more damage than the other, but this is how I've seen the damage breakdown come up every time I got instagibbed by them.

You got hit by the lesser damaging arm, which is why you had 4% of your shield still left.

Are you seriously suggesting that one arm does more than the other?

The reason that you get 52% on the first hit is that it takes you down to 48%health. Then the 2nd hit does another 52% worth of damage but as you only have 48% health; this is what you see when you die. I've seen my char die from only 1% damage from a tank round before now.

And of course if someone has certed up their nanoweave, a single hit may well not take down their shield entirely.

The important issue is of course that the Raven should not be a 2 hit kill in the first place.

[almalino]

The important issue is of course that the Raven should not be a 2 hit kill in the first place.

But those are so slow and difficult to curve properly that you will never hit moving infantry with those. I had difficulties even to hit not moving infantry from 100 meters if curving is needed. Rockets always lend behind the target. Still nerf required?

[HiroshiChugi]

Well all I know is that I'm happy to finally have an EFFECTIVE AV weapon for my MAX. I faced a Prowler two days ago, hit it once with a Falcon, and 2 clips of the Raven and brought it down to 1/3 health. It really made me wish that I had bought 2 Ravens.

[psijaka]

But those are so slow and difficult to curve properly that you will never hit moving infantry with those. I had difficulties even to hit not moving infantry from 100 meters if curving is needed. Rockets always lend behind the target. Still nerf required?

Against infantry, yes.

Compare the Raven with the Falcon.

Falcon is a 2 hit, or one salvo kill, but:
Slower rate of fire than the Raven.
Less ammo.
Ballistic drop to compensate for.
Cone of fire becomes significant at long range.
Round divergeance becomes significant at long range.
Easier to miss your target at close range.

Now the Raven:
Faster RoF.
More ammo.
More than one round in the mag.
Laser guided so possible to snipe targets at long range.
More likely to hit target at close range.

This last point needs more explanation; if you fire a Falcon at say 2-3m range, aimed at someone's chest, the rounds go either side of the target because the weapons are so widely spaced and the aim is set to converge at medium range. Whereas if you fire a Raven at the same range, you get the hit; the guidance system seems to be able to adjust your aim unless you are right next to the target. Test it out in VR to confirm that this is the case.

The Falcon does have some plus points though.
High damage means that it is a guaranteed 2HK against infantry, even if they have full nanoweave.
High damage, unguided projectiles means that it is possible to duck in and out of cover between rounds; invaluable when you are taking fire or tackling a tank at close range.


Do you still think thar the Raven should be a "one salvo" kill against infantry? And remember that it is an AV weapon before answering.

Anyway, I'm not buying Ravens until they sort the balancing out.

[Whiteagle]

Well all I know is that I'm happy to finally have an EFFECTIVE AV weapon for my MAX. I faced a Prowler two days ago, hit it once with a Falcon, and 2 clips of the Raven and brought it down to 1/3 health. It really made me wish that I had bought 2 Ravens.
Ha ha! Good one...

...Oh wait, you're serious?

BWAH-HA-HA-HA!!!!

[Frotang]

This is specifically about the new AV versus infantry.

And regardless of that, those are just total kills, it doesn't tell much. But it does show the infantry to vehicle destroyed ratios, which is higher for the Ravens, meaning they rape infantry.

And the Fractures dont rape infantry? The vehicle to kill ratio is meaningless bc you have no idea if its just an empty flash or something. The telling sign that Fracture is op against infantry is the time played to kill ratio. Fractures racked up over double the kills that the Raven did, and it was done in less time, over 200hrs less time. Im all for nerfing both vs infantry but dont act like the Fractures arent the king of AV killing infantry, bc they are right now

[mrmrmrj]

And regardless of that, those are just total kills, it doesn't tell much. But it does show the infantry to vehicle destroyed ratios, which is higher for the Ravens, meaning they rape infantry.



You are looking at it backwards. The data indicates the opposite. The Fracture has more total kills per vehicle killed than the Raven, 2.16 vs 1.94. The Raven is mathematically WORSE at killing infantry using the stats cited if one assumes the number of occupants per vehicle killed is constant.

[Canaris]

hence the reason the infantry shields would benefit from having more resistance to AV damage as a whole, all of them are vicious vs infantry.
Shields up = mitigated somewhat
shields down = tough titty

[DirtyBird]

I bought the Ravens and I'm not that impressed with them for AV or AI purposes.
One good thing with them is you can kill infantry in that dead zone.
I would not recommend buying them as they currently are unless thats all you want them for.
When mastered they could be lethal indoors and we might hear plenty of nerf noise akin the the Hacksaw MAX if they become more prevalent.

But once you have targets moving around with some range the Raven is exposed as a mediocre weapon with a fantastic reload animation.
Its all well and good shooting in a sterile environment like the VR with stationary targets but thats nothing like what you'll be up against outside of there.
It is not easy hitting infantry at range with them unless they remain stationary ie. Turret Monkeys or Snipers.

Verses vehicles I still think that on its own its very weak unless your target is afk.
I also think their indirect damage is currently too low at but they went nerf happy on all the NC AV weapons with that.

NC HA Phoenix users should be happy the the TR and VS dont have the Ravens (tho the Fracture might do just as well, even better).


I still irks me what they have done to the original Falcons, I miss the way they were.
Those current flaming orbs they fire are slower than an old mole at a christening.
From the other MAX thread the Falcons are meant to now be 300RPM & 100m/s and the Ravens I think are 48RPM & 85m/s. But the Falcon is clearly slower than the Raven.
They either mixed up the speeds or the tool tip data yet again, the RPM is probably wrong as well.
The fact the Falcon couldn't hit infantry up close without some practice was a good trade off imo.
Higby wants them to be used in say a court yard stand off vs vehicles, I can tell you now who will win that showdown.
If I have to stand there for eternity waiting for my halleys comets to hit I wont last long vs armor.

I kind of feel with the Raven and Falcon we are still in testing mode with them.
Both of them feel unfinished now and taking away that OSK from them would render them useless imo. Unless the AV side got a decent buff.


A test for dual Raven owners.
For those of you that have dual Ravens and are able to take video footage, unlike my shitty video capture system that is always exceeding its memory limit ffs, try the following.
Equip your Ravens in the Warpgate and move to the door way on the left or right of the spawn room and fire them both straight out a few times.
Now walk out to the railing and fire both again.
Notice any difference?

[psijaka]

One good thing with them is you can kill infantry in that dead zone.

That's the phrase I was looking for!

[Root Hade]

Would be neat if there were inherent mechanics instead of damage nerfs that kept a weapon specific to ground, air or infantry or whatever. Like what if the rockets were basically timed sticky nades, so they'd give infantry time to disperse but still lock down vehicles in some way. You could also just make aiming at smaller targets just inaccurate with funky projectile trajectory or something?

Theres that dynamic aiming thing that makes you aim at your reticle instead of just shooting straight forward into infinity. Disable that for weapons designed for long range stuff?

[BlaxicanX]

AV Max's one-shot infantry?

Good. If you get hit by a giant missile designed to puncture tanks, you deserve to die. That's what respawns are for.

Anti-armor weaponry should be balanced against infantry by having very slow firing rates, very long reload rates, and a lack of splash damage. Giving infantry some kind of "special resistance" to an RPG to the face is ridiculous.

[KesTro]

AV Max's one-shot infantry?

Good. If you get hit by a giant missile designed to puncture tanks, you deserve to die. That's what respawns are for.

Anti-armor weaponry should be balanced against infantry by having very slow firing rates, very long reload rates, and a lack of splash damage. Giving infantry some kind of "special resistance" to an RPG to the face is ridiculous.

The problem is that people are using them over their AI counterparts for close range engagements with infantry, they're simply better.

I was never a fan of the jack of all trades mentality. As someone stated earlier it's all about trade offs. I'm perfectly fine with these dominating vehicles but that is where the domination should stop.

Ravens do seem strong but as I'm NC and haven't bought them I can't attest for their power. I can attest to the power of the Fracture just about every TR max on Connery is using them.

[BlaxicanX]

AV Max's aren't affective against infantry because they one-shot infantry.

Being able to one-shot a single person is meaningless in a game where there's hundreds of people fighting in a single base at any one time.

[AThreatToYou]

The reason why the Raven is good AI is pretty much because of the reload speed, refire time, and projectile velocity. Increase all of these without decreasing DPS (increase damage per shot) would be preferable.

[Dragonskin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV1DXOU5Yso

So here is a quick very low quality vid trying to show how you can curve Raven shots to clear cover. Other than the Phoenix there isn't another weapon that offers this level of control. Mostly due to the 360 degree movement you get with MAXes vs AV MANA turrets. So yes... even though my targets weren't behind a rock in the vid you can see how they easily could have been and you can reliably hit them once you figure the curve and travel time needed.

On a side note. I play on 1080p and have the in game recorder set to high quality. Is the in game recorder just that crappy? I need to get something else I guess.

[AThreatToYou]

The thing is, if they are behind cover, the missiles (being laser-guided) will attempt to move where you are aiming, which will be the other side of the cover. Thus cover is still cover. Is it still possible to arc over? Yes, but extremely difficult and frankly that should be rewarded.

if there's anything to fix this, increase the velocity on the missiles so they can't make such tight turns.

[Tom Peters]

And the Fractures dont rape infantry? The vehicle to kill ratio is meaningless bc you have no idea if its just an empty flash or something. The telling sign that Fracture is op against infantry is the time played to kill ratio. Fractures racked up over double the kills that the Raven did, and it was done in less time, over 200hrs less time. Im all for nerfing both vs infantry but dont act like the Fractures arent the king of AV killing infantry, bc they are right now
I wouldn't know what the Fractures do because I never fight against them. But if they destroy infantry anywhere near as effectively as the Ravens do, they're OP in that regard as well.

If they added specific 'resists' types like they did in the last patch for vehicles, they could adjust how much damage infantry take versus AV without crippling it versus vehicles.

I think all weapons should have different damage ratios versus air, infantry, heavy vehicles and light vehicles, and MAXs accordingly.

[DirtyBird]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV1DXOU5Yso

So here is a quick very low quality vid trying to show how you can curve Raven shots to clear cover. Other than the Phoenix there isn't another weapon that offers this level of control. Mostly due to the 360 degree movement you get with MAXes vs AV MANA turrets. So yes... even though my targets weren't behind a rock in the vid you can see how they easily could have been and you can reliably hit them once you figure the curve and travel time needed.

On a side note. I play on 1080p and have the in game recorder set to high quality. Is the in game recorder just that crappy? I need to get something else I guess.

You cant say heres a video showing how you can curve the Ravens to clear cover and not actually clear anything :)
Then you say how easily it could have been cleared.
You can set up a situation in the VR to try and create this shot on something behind cover but I bet its not easy.
As you say yourself, you first need to figure out the curve and travel time needed... you forgot to add you also need a willing target to just stand there while you nut that out, not in the VR.

One thing your video did remind me is another video showing the same thing and how if you have the time your first shot could be curved so two shots(4 rockets) hit at once.
I think is some situations it could be easier to aim on a ranged target (Infantry) with the Raven using the curved method. I find that some times the reticle is lost inside the shot and at range every pixel counts.
I'll need to test it.

[almalino]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV1DXOU5Yso

So here is a quick very low quality vid trying to show how you can curve Raven shots to clear cover.

Yeah, on that video you missed 90% of shots while curving on stationary target. Indeed, Raven is overpowered. /sarcasm ended :)

[psijaka]

I don't believe for a minute that it is possible to reliably hit a target by curving around cover.

And neither should it be - I thought that the Raven was a laser guided weapon; therefore it should only be possible to guide it within line of sight.

"Ye cannae change the laws of physics, Jim"

[Chewy]

You can curve behind cover with a Raven but it is hard as hell. You either need to take a long setup where you have to fire to the side and try to turn it back, giving up sight on your target and hope they are still in that cover on the exact spot. Or you need to hope the target is far back away from his cover and not hugging it. I have yet to land a shot behind cover, splashed behind cover with the Ravens AOE but never hit a target in his cover.

2 hitting infantry is a maybe OP but so far Iv have only been able to dual shot kill maybe 3 guys so far. The rest Iv had to waste ammo or whole mags because of target moving, slow travel speed, needing to track and lead, and needing to think about my own ass getting shot outside of my cover even if they are 10m out.

As an AI role, Raven suck in my opinion. Id rather have my certed Mattocks. And as an AV role, Ravens can be great but the 350m max flight range makes them rather limited compared to the other 2 new AV MAX weapons at long range.

[BlazingSun]

The Raven's AI potential is shit - there is no other way to describe that. You're only able to kill infantry if they are standing perfectly still and how often does that happen under live combat situations. If your target is moving ... good luck! Even if they are close it's next to impossible. The missiles are too damn slow. Even enemy MAXes are a total pain to hit which is a joke. I'd trade the Raven for the new TR MAX weapon any time. As it stands, you have a MUCH better chance of killing infantry with bursters.

[almalino]

The Raven's AI potential is shit - there is no other way to describe that. You're only able to kill infantry if they are standing perfectly still and how often does that happen under live combat situations. If your target is moving ... good luck! Even if they are close it's next to impossible. The missiles are too damn slow. Even enemy MAXes are a total pain to hit which is a joke. I'd trade the Raven for the new TR MAX weapon any time. As it stands, you have a MUCH better chance of killing infantry with bursters.

I think Ravens are overpowered. Those should be replaced with a two kittens following and playing with a laser spot. Then TR/VS will die laughing :)

Kitten Chasing Laser - YouTube

[Dragonskin]

You cant say heres a video showing how you can curve the Ravens to clear cover and not actually clear anything :)
Then you say how easily it could have been cleared.
You can set up a situation in the VR to try and create this shot on something behind cover but I bet its not easy.
As you say yourself, you first need to figure out the curve and travel time needed... you forgot to add you also need a willing target to just stand there while you nut that out, not in the VR.

People hide behind cover all the time. Especially in zerg vs zerg warfare. You can have an entire squad behind 1 rock. You see it at Stronghold, Ti Alloys, Crown, Vanu Archives and Skydock all the time.. that is just Indar bases.

Yeah, on that video you missed 90% of shots while curving on stationary target. Indeed, Raven is overpowered. /sarcasm ended :)

By this statement you are also 90% bad at math. How many shots fired vs how many missed?


Side note. Before I made this vid I was killed behind a rock at the Stronghold. The NC force was in the base and the VS were attacking from outside. There were tons of NC maxes and all you heard was the sound of ravens firing. You know how those NC maxes kept firing endlessly against targets trying to hide in cover? Engineers with ammo packs. It's really not hard to set up a real in game situation where you can see this in action. I am sure we will see it at the Vanu Archives and Skydock when the NC hold it.

Go ahead and defend your ravens though. We all know how the NC scat max argument ended.

Also to clarify my only goal in any of this to get infantry damage reduced. Keep your powerful ravens against Vehicles.. that is fine. They are AV weapons after all. Our Vortex is trash vs infantry like it should be. Ravens shouldn't double as AI killing machines like the Phoenix was... oh wait that was also nerfed.... Go on. Defend it! LOL :rofl:

[Tom Peters]

The Raven's AI potential is shit - there is no other way to describe that. You're only able to kill infantry if they are standing perfectly still and how often does that happen under live combat situations. If your target is moving ... good luck! Even if they are close it's next to impossible. The missiles are too damn slow. Even enemy MAXes are a total pain to hit which is a joke. I'd trade the Raven for the new TR MAX weapon any time. As it stands, you have a MUCH better chance of killing infantry with bursters.

This is all such lies. They are the easiest MAX AV weapon to hit infantry with. Especially in close-medium range.

[Whiteagle]

Meh, they could salvo you with Falcons too, but no one was complaining about that...

Seriously guys, the Fracture is as close to MAX mounted Rocket Pods as we're going to get, so the only thing I'd want to see nerfed on it is the Splash

[DirtyBird]

I've spent a little bit of time in the game so far and most of it on Indar and you are wearing your Captain Obvious hat when you state that people hide behind cover all the time.
But that is not the point you were trying to make was it Dragonskin.


I look forward to seeing a video montage of Ravens slaughtering the masses hiding behind cover. :)

[Chewy]

I've spent a little bit of time in the game so far and most of it on Indar and you are wearing your Captain Obvious hat when you state that people hide behind cover all the time.
But that is not the point you were trying to make was it Dragonskin.


I look forward to seeing a video montage of Ravens slaughtering the masses hiding behind cover. :)

Tonight I was able to pepper people behind cover with the Ravens with splash damage. The end of a massive alert fail (our pubs got farmed at a bio-lab for the last hour and made it a Crown) my platoon took on an armor zerg and my Ravens did a lot a splash damage to infantry using trees and rocks as cover. Killed 4 people in that 20 or so minutes. Got plenty of assists but only 4 kills and 2 that Im certain of where from vehicle kills.

The ravens just can't turn enough to land hits behind cover. They can't even follow a sunderer on the move without leading about 1-2 lengths in font. I whored my dual Ravens as much as I could tonight and hardly got any kills with them. They just are not of use outside of 200m-300m AV work. Look at my kill feed
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618019971473/killboard

8 Raven kills tonight, 8 with many deaths between them. Is that OP? Look up some TR MAX players and see that the Fracture is the one that needs a looking into against infantry. Im starting to see as many of of them as dual Mercy MAXes. Can you against the Raven say the same with NC and VS MAXes?

[Tom Peters]

Tonight I was able to pepper people behind cover with the Ravens with splash damage. The end of a massive alert fail (our pubs got farmed at a bio-lab for the last hour and made it a Crown) my platoon took on an armor zerg and my Ravens did a lot a splash damage to infantry using trees and rocks as cover. Killed 4 people in that 20 or so minutes. Got plenty of assists but only 4 kills and 2 that Im certain of where from vehicle kills.

The ravens just can't turn enough to land hits behind cover. They can't even follow a sunderer on the move without leading about 1-2 lengths in font. I whored my dual Ravens as much as I could tonight and hardly got any kills with them. They just are not of use outside of 200m-300m AV work. Look at my kill feed
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618019971473/killboard

8 Raven kills tonight, 8 with many deaths between them. Is that OP? Look up some TR MAX players and see that the Fracture is the one that needs a looking into against infantry. Im starting to see as many of of them as dual Mercy MAXes. Can you against the Raven say the same with NC and VS MAXes?

Yes. I can. If the Fracture is too powerful vs infantry, it should be toned down just like the Raven.

[Whiteagle]

Look up some TR MAX players and see that the Fracture is the one that needs a looking into against infantry. Im starting to see as many of of them as dual Mercy MAXes. Can you against the Raven say the same with NC and VS MAXes?
Well to be fair they could have giving us a straight-up Comet clone and you'd STILL see them spammed in these numbers...
...You don't realise how badly the Pounder sucks...

[DirtyBird]

Tonight I was able to pepper people behind cover with the Ravens with splash damage. The end of a massive alert fail (our pubs got farmed at a bio-lab for the last hour and made it a Crown) my platoon took on an armor zerg and my Ravens did a lot a splash damage to infantry using trees and rocks as cover. Killed 4 people in that 20 or so minutes. Got plenty of assists but only 4 kills and 2 that Im certain of where from vehicle kills.

The ravens just can't turn enough to land hits behind cover. They can't even follow a sunderer on the move without leading about 1-2 lengths in font. I whored my dual Ravens as much as I could tonight and hardly got any kills with them. They just are not of use outside of 200m-300m AV work. Look at my kill feed
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618019971473/killboard

8 Raven kills tonight, 8 with many deaths between them. Is that OP? Look up some TR MAX players and see that the Fracture is the one that needs a looking into against infantry. Im starting to see as many of of them as dual Mercy MAXes. Can you against the Raven say the same with NC and VS MAXes?

I might have forgotten my /sarcasm tag :)
I'm not a fan of the Ravens and certainly dont see them as OP.

The Ravens Indirect Damage is only meant to be 50 and the Falcon 80, even if they are switched around its still very little.
The Falcon use to be 250.
You have to be very accurate to get the kills with them at range and have a lot of help if they are behind cover.


I think the player stats page is rooted atm, some servers more so than others.
I wouldnt bother showing you my weapon stats because I am on Briggs and we are screwed with the killboard remaining stagnant since the last GU.
Even your weapon stats have some obvious issues.

I'd love to be using the Fracture instead. (or my old falcons!)

And the Pounder is a joke, surely they are not going to leave it in that state, I cant see any reason/situation where they would be used.

[psijaka]

They just are not of use outside of 200m-300m AV work. Look at my kill feed
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618019971473/killboard

Off topic I know but what was going on with the 3 sticky grenade TKs?!

[Chewy]

Agreed that the Pounder isn't a good weapon. But Im not seeing OP in the Raven.

They are just not of use as an AI role and their AV role requires you to stay within LOS of your target while within render range. Any vehicle I can hit with my Ravens can hit me with a MUCH bigger bullet. A 2 man (driver and 1 gunner) sunderer almost killed me before I could do decent damage and if I wasn't able to jump off and under a bridge for cover it would have.

I will say that the AOE size may be a bit much though. Can't say just how big it is but it was a little hard to not get splash on infantry crossing a road below a towers landing pad I was holding. Other than that I just can't see the Raven as being more powerful as it should be.

Does anyone have proof of any of the factions AV weapons being OP? Something like a long kill feed, streak video, or just stats. The only thing Iv seen so far was on page 2 by Frotang
NCM3 Raven - Players used: 6802 Total playtime: 971H 57M Total Kills: 3641 Destroyed Vehicles: 1877

MR1 Fracture - Players used: 7642 Total playtime: 727H 28M Total Kills: 8407 Destroyed Vehicles: 3889

Hell lets look at the site he linked ps2-stats.com
http://ps2-stats.com/weapon/infantrytype/av_max/all/per-hour

Average kills for MAX AV weapons.
Fracture 12.317 and 6.384 total 18.701
Raven 5.992 and 3.859 total 9.851
Vortex 2.348 and 1.792 total 4.140

Be it vehicle or infantry kills, those numbers are fucked up! NC have 2 times the VS and TR have 2 times the number of NC! Something is very off with these weapons or the VS just are not using them. But from the same page is says about 5.9k people use the Vortexes, 7.1k people use the Ravens, and 7.7k people use the Fractures. 1-2 thousand less players out of 7 shouldn't work out to those number if all was right.

Hell in over all stats it is about the same with the 3.
http://ps2-stats.com/weapon/infantrytype/av_max/all/overall

Fractures have total 19,434 kills
Ravens have total 7,431 kills
Vortexes have total 2,072 kill

This time it's damn near 3 times as much kills as the last.


With seeing this Im calling Vortexes UP and Fractures OP as fuck.


edit-
psijaka
That's what happens when you forget that you're not a medic and have sticky grenades, not revive grenades.

[Whiteagle]

With seeing this Im calling Vortexes UP and Fractures OP as fuck.
Fractures aren't OP, we just have a weapon we can HIT things with finally!
You Falcon MAXes really don't understand how HARD the Pounder sucked...

[Gatekeeper]

With seeing this Im calling Vortexes UP and Fractures OP as fuck.

Purely anecdotal, but on Cobalt I've never seen *anybody* use a Vortex, whereas both Ravens and Fractures seem about equally common (although I see more AI or AA loadouts on MAXs still).

Mind you I also never see any Lancers, so perhaps Cobalt VS just hate charge-up AV weapons (for reference I'd say the Pheonix is the most used of the new HA AV weapons, with the Striker somewhere in the middle).

Bodes well for our new charge-up pistol, doesn't it? ;)

[psijaka]

Hell lets look at the site he linked ps2-stats.com
http://ps2-stats.com/weapon/infantrytype/av_max/all/per-hour

Average kills for MAX AV weapons.
Fracture 12.317 and 6.384 total 18.701
Raven 5.992 and 3.859 total 9.851
Vortex 2.348 and 1.792 total 4.140

Highly significant. I'm sure SoE will be lookign very closely at data like this.

It's hard to escape the conclusion that Fracture's aren't OP when looking at these figures. I predict a nerf - but buff the Pounder to make it viable at the same time.

And maybe I'm wrong in calling the Ravens OP.

edit- psijaka
That's what happens when you forget that you're not a medic and have sticky grenades, not revive grenades.

oops :D

[psijaka]

Fractures aren't OP, we just have a weapon we can HIT things with finally!
You Falcon MAXes really don't understand how HARD the Pounder sucked...

I did actually spend some SC and ran with dual Pounders for a while, both before and (briefly) after the recent gravity increase, so I do understand, and I do wholeheartedly agree that they need buffing hard.

But that doesn't alter the fact that Fractures are OP. The kills/hour data is statistically significant, with a large sample size, and it just cannot be ignored.

[Whiteagle]

But that doesn't alter the fact that Fractures are OP. The kills/hour data is statistically significant, with a large sample size, and it just cannot be ignored.
Dude, they are a weapon we can HIT things with...
Like I said, the TR would be running Comets if we had them.
Take my Rate of Fire, take my Splash, HALVE MY MAGAZINE, but don't make it another Pounder!

[ChipMHazard]

But that doesn't alter the fact that Fractures are OP. The kills/hour data is statistically significant, with a large sample size, and it just cannot be ignored.

Based on which stats?
Kills per hour? It's being used a lot.
Headshot count? It's being used more often against infantry.
Hit count? It takes more hits to kill something.
Destroyed vehicles? Again, it's just being used a lot.

Can't really use these stats for a whole lot on their own, balance wise, without having more knowledge about how they are being used and how many players are using each AV weapon actively.

[psijaka]

Based on which stats?
Kills per hour? It's being used a lot.
Headshot count? It's being used more often against infantry.
Hit count? It takes more hits to kill something.
Destroyed vehicles? Again, it's just being used a lot.

Can't really use these stats for a whole lot on their own, balance wise, without having more knowledge about how they are being used and how many players are using each AV weapon actively.

Kills per hour. Per hour used, I presume, so irrespective of whether it is used a lot. Perhaps complicated by the fact that some people may not be running dual, but there's no escaping the fact that the figures for the Fracture are unusually high - and that the Vortex figures are unusually low (worse than Pounder!).

[psijaka]

Dude, they are a weapon we can HIT things with...
Like I said, the TR would be running Comets if we had them.
Take my Rate of Fire, take my Splash, HALVE MY MAGAZINE, but don't make it another Pounder!

I'll agree with that!

[Whiteagle]

I'll agree with that!
Thank you oh Master of MAXes!
Now if only we can get some wrist claws melee weapons...

[Sledgecrushr]

Thank you oh Master of MAXes!
Now if only we can get some wrist claws melee weapons...

Soe can have all my money if they would give my max lightning claws.

[AThreatToYou]

So Raven's aren't OP? Good deal.
And I literally have not seen a single vortex MAX.

[Chewy]

Based on which stats?
Kills per hour? It's being used a lot.
Headshot count? It's being used more often against infantry.
Hit count? It takes more hits to kill something.
Destroyed vehicles? Again, it's just being used a lot.

Can't really use these stats for a whole lot on their own, balance wise, without having more knowledge about how they are being used and how many players are using each AV weapon actively.

Overall stats
http://ps2-stats.com/weapon/infantrytype/av_max/all/overall

Average overall
http://ps2-stats.com/weapon/infantrytype/av_max/all/average

Average per hour
http://ps2-stats.com/weapon/infantrytype/av_max/all/per-hour

Fractures out do in just about every stat against the other 2 AV weapons and by the power of 2 or more on a LOT of them. Look at headshot numbers in the overall. That's pure infantry and Fractures are TEN TIMES the amount of Vortexes and are well over TWO TIMES the number for Ravens.

The only thing that can explain the numbers is playtime. Fractures have 200-500 hour lead over the rest but with only a 700-800 player advantage. That tells me Fractures live a LOT longer and can kill a LOT more than the rest. I can't say the exact numbers but this reads to me as something that NEEDS a looking into before MAX abilities come.

Think of what lockdown can do with these things covering a road or chokepoint. Holy hell, the amount of hurt they do now will be nothing to a proper placed lockdown.

[Whiteagle]

Soe can have all my money if they would give my max lightning claws.
No NC, you get the Power Hammer!

Fractures out do in just about every stat against the other 2 AV weapons and by the power of 2 or more on a LOT of them. Look at headshot numbers in the overall. That's pure infantry and Fractures are TEN TIMES the amount of Vortexes and are well over TWO TIMES the number for Ravens.

The only thing that can explain the numbers is playtime. Fractures have 200-500 hour lead over the rest but with only a 700-800 player advantage. That tells me Fractures live a LOT longer and can kill a LOT more than the rest. I can't say the exact numbers but this reads to me as something that NEEDS a looking into before MAX abilities come.
Again, we finally have a weapon we can hit shit at range with!
Plus you have to realise Terran Mentality; If we get a good weapon not only will everyone Recommend it, but we will form Infantry Blobs around said weapon.
It's like how Vehicles thought the Striker was OP, because every TR Heavy was using it in LARGE numbers.

Think of what lockdown can do with these things covering a road or chokepoint. Holy hell, the amount of hurt they do now will be nothing to a proper placed lockdown.
...My god, it's beautiful...

[Dragonskin]

Tonight I was able to pepper people behind cover with the Ravens with splash damage. The end of a massive alert fail (our pubs got farmed at a bio-lab for the last hour and made it a Crown) my platoon took on an armor zerg and my Ravens did a lot a splash damage to infantry using trees and rocks as cover. Killed 4 people in that 20 or so minutes. Got plenty of assists but only 4 kills and 2 that Im certain of where from vehicle kills.

The ravens just can't turn enough to land hits behind cover. They can't even follow a sunderer on the move without leading about 1-2 lengths in font. I whored my dual Ravens as much as I could tonight and hardly got any kills with them. They just are not of use outside of 200m-300m AV work. Look at my kill feed
https://players.planetside2.com/#!/5428010618019971473/killboard

8 Raven kills tonight, 8 with many deaths between them. Is that OP? Look up some TR MAX players and see that the Fracture is the one that needs a looking into against infantry. Im starting to see as many of of them as dual Mercy MAXes. Can you against the Raven say the same with NC and VS MAXes?

I'm glad you admit that you can hit infantry behind cover. Now.. as for the missing information on the rest of your post. How many other NC maxes were firing ravens at the same targets? 4 Raven kills in the particular instance you were referring to about killing infantry behind cover yet you say you got plenty of assists. Sounds like there were quite a few NC maxes doing the exact same thing and you're just upset you didn't actually get the kills and the others did.

Then you later say that ravens just can't turn enough to land hits behind cover... but you just said you got 4 confirmed kills on infantry behind cover AND plenty of assists. So can you actually hit infantry behind cover or can't you?

[Chewy]

I'm glad you admit that you can hit infantry behind cover. Now.. as for the missing information on the rest of your post. How many other NC maxes were firing ravens at the same targets? 4 Raven kills in the particular instance you were referring to about killing infantry behind cover yet you say you got plenty of assists. Sounds like there were quite a few NC maxes doing the exact same thing and you're just upset you didn't actually get the kills and the others did.

Then you later say that ravens just can't turn enough to land hits behind cover... but you just said you got 4 confirmed kills on infantry behind cover AND plenty of assists. So can you actually hit infantry behind cover or can't you?

Landing a hit and splash damage is not the same. If I was told right splash is 50 damage and a hit is 490. I don't count scoring splash damage as getting a direct hit. Those 4 kills at the end are NOT pure infantry. At least 2 of them that I am certain of are from 2 vehicle kills. Maybe 2 of those 4 was infantry, I can't remember if I had dual kills from a vehicle and didn't think to record the gameplay. The other 4 Raven kills that night I have no real memory of anymore.

To answer the questions of what else was there.
3 Raven MAXes total counting me that I seen on my tower, the rest of the platoon being HA, engineers, and snipers with a rare medic for revives. I was getting assists on vehicles and infantry that already lost their shields from trying to get across a road without cover. Can't say if Ravens where the ones to remove the shields or the 50+ friendly infantry and vehicles that was also at that tower defending. We got our asses kicked on that alert and at the end of it that tower had platoons for friendlies and enemies. Who knows what we had in the area.

Also Im not pissed that I couldn't get more kills. Look at my stats page and you'll see that I main 3 classes. Medic, Engineer, and MAX. If Im not a MAX I am pure support and are either babysitting a sunderer/MAX, repairing our armor that's under fire, or up our infantries collective asses doing prostate exams (healing/reviving). Im no killer, a K/D of 1.04 kinda proves that and if I didn't have a certed MAX it would be under 1 long ago.

So others may live. Im going to run head first into hell and claw myself back out if it means I can help others. Just wish I was a person that could do such things in the real world.

[psijaka]

My MAX was actually taken down by a VS MAX running dual Vortexes tonight. I was after a Sunderer at the time, but even so, the shame of it!

Edit - I had a look at his killboard as I was curious to to see how well he was doing with them - not many kills at all; he was getting a lot more kills running with Comet/Quasar.

[Livefire]

The new NC max is not OP at all, all AV should kill infantry real fast being if it can kill a tank it certainly can kill a infantry soldier. It's just a weapon that is a little harder to aim because it is not directly designed to be use on that kind of target. This is like hearing all the whiners that think it is op a decimator can kill 3 soldiers that are standing right next to each other. Its a fucking rocket guys. And the NC maxes laser guided missiles should hit just as hard. HIGH TTK sucks and is a major factor why I don't like the average FPS game. Low TTK requires strategy and tactics with very little forgiveness. It's HARDCORE mode guys, I really enjoy having a 3/1 KD ratio, Never can have that when playing games that infantry soldiers can take stupid amounts of damage. The one thing I really hated in PS1 was its stupid high TTK. The new TTK in PS2 is the one thing I like most about it and in fact would be happy with it further reduced in some ways like a bleed to death feature introduced and make more weapons able to kill with head shots. I think sniper riffles should be able to kill on one shot torso shots as well sense they are like 50cals. I really love my scifi shooter having a sense of realism that adds intensity and stress to the combat situations not bunny hopping micro dancing solders taking 20+hits.

[Dragonskin]

The new NC max is not OP at all, all AV should kill infantry real fast being if it can kill a tank it certainly can kill a infantry soldier. It's just a weapon that is a little harder to aim because it is not directly designed to be use on that kind of target. This is like hearing all the whiners that think it is op a decimator can kill 3 soldiers that are standing right next to each other. Its a fucking rocket guys. And the NC maxes laser guided missiles should hit just as hard. HIGH TTK sucks and is a major factor why I don't like the average FPS game. Low TTK requires strategy and tactics with very little forgiveness. It's HARDCORE mode guys, I really enjoy having a 3/1 KD ratio, Never can have that when playing games that infantry soldiers can take stupid amounts of damage. The one thing I really hated in PS1 was its stupid high TTK. The new TTK in PS2 is the one thing I like most about it and in fact would be happy with it further reduced in some ways like a bleed to death feature introduced and make more weapons able to kill with head shots. I think sniper riffles should be able to kill on one shot torso shots as well sense they are like 50cals. I really love my scifi shooter having a sense of realism that adds intensity and stress to the combat situations not bunny hopping micro dancing solders taking 20+hits.

Seriously.. you said lower TTK requires MORE strategy than higher TTK? :rofl:

[PoorRichard]

Personally, stupid argument. I realize this a game and we want everything to be equal so that everybody has an equal chance. Fine, but there are trade offs. An AV weapon is strong enough to kill vehicles, therefore if it hits infantry, infantry dies quickly, or in this case one-shotted (salvoed) by an AV MAX. This seems reasonable to me.

Let's take real life. If infantry takes a direct hit from from say, an AT-4, dead. Just the kinetic force of the projectile would kill them, less the explosive force. Making infantry shields more resistant to AV projectiles would be akin to making infantry stronger than vehicles. Keep it the way it is.

I do play MAX on occasion. Just started as I was focused on getting armor and other upgrades on the other classes I play. MAX is tertiary for me as I normally play Engi or Medic moreso than HA and very rarely play LA or Infil (just for fun, not serious play). Saying that, sometimes as an AV or AA MAX we are forced to use our AV or AA weapons against infantry. It happens, it's a fact of life.

Take another real world example, white phosphorus is not supposed to be used against infantry (according to the Geneva Conventions or NATO treaty, whatev), but is supposed to be used against armor targets. Guess what, infantry or at least personnel are involved. Or take an M1A1 firing HEAT at a bunker and actually makes it through the firing slit, result: dead infantry.

AV weapons will kill infantry. The point is not to make the game easier, but for players to adapt and overcome to situations as they arise.

A new weapon or vehicle doesn't require a buff or nerf, but requires the players to adapt. A buff or nerf is required when something is actually broken. I think the devs and players need to take a more commonsensical approach to some of these things. Get caught in the open by a sundy or harrasser with a fury firing at you and you get killed? Deserved it. Adapt to the situation, eliminate the threat. Remember, we respawn.

[Chewy]

Personally, stupid argument. I realize this a game and we want everything to be equal so that everybody has an equal chance. Fine, but there are trade offs. An AV weapon is strong enough to kill vehicles, therefore if it hits infantry, infantry dies quickly, or in this case one-shotted (salvoed) by an AV MAX. This seems reasonable to me.

Let's take real life. If infantry takes a direct hit from from say, an AT-4, dead. Just the kinetic force of the projectile would kill them, less the explosive force. Making infantry shields more resistant to AV projectiles would be akin to making infantry stronger than vehicles. Keep it the way it is.

I do play MAX on occasion. Just started as I was focused on getting armor and other upgrades on the other classes I play. MAX is tertiary for me as I normally play Engi or Medic moreso than HA and very rarely play LA or Infil (just for fun, not serious play). Saying that, sometimes as an AV or AA MAX we are forced to use our AV or AA weapons against infantry. It happens, it's a fact of life.

Take another real world example, white phosphorus is not supposed to be used against infantry (according to the Geneva Conventions or NATO treaty, whatev), but is supposed to be used against armor targets. Guess what, infantry or at least personnel are involved. Or take an M1A1 firing HEAT at a bunker and actually makes it through the firing slit, result: dead infantry.

AV weapons will kill infantry. The point is not to make the game easier, but for players to adapt and overcome to situations as they arise.

A new weapon or vehicle doesn't require a buff or nerf, but requires the players to adapt. A buff or nerf is required when something is actually broken. I think the devs and players need to take a more commonsensical approach to some of these things. Get caught in the open by a sundy or harrasser with a fury firing at you and you get killed? Deserved it. Adapt to the situation, eliminate the threat. Remember, we respawn.

It isn't the fact that they kill infantry. It's the fact of how well they kill infantry.

Vortex? Can't kill shit by looking at the stats
Raven? Not bad. Can do the job depending on the user
Fracture? No question, one of if not the best MAX AV weapon

Look at the average per hour page.
http://ps2-stats.com/weapon/infantrytype/av_max/all/per-hour

3 out of the 8 listings a Fracture is on top and by a rather large gap. Kills, headshots, and vehicle kills a Fracture has the top spot. Only fire count, hit count, headshot rate, and accuracy is the Fracture not top dog but has 2nd-3rd place is ALL of them but player count (not counting doubles of a weapon). If it wasn't for the Bursters (all 6 of them) then Fractures would have 5 out of 8 of the listings hands down with being in a close 2nd in fire count and accuracy. The only thing that the Fractures don't have a firm grip on is in player count.

Best killer
Best headshooter (not a word)
Best vehicles killer
2nd best headshot %
2nd most hitting
2nd most accurate
3rd most fired weapon
5th most played weapon (13th and 14th if counting doubles)

If that isn't OP then I don't want to see what is. Not even the hated ScatMAXes in AI stats come CLOSE to a WHISPER of a HINT of what Fractures are doing now and they have been bitched about being OP as fuck (they're not) for MONTHS. We've had Fractures for about 10 days and they damn near rule all AV MAX weapons hands down.

[psijaka]

.... HIGH TTK sucks and is a major factor why I don't like the average FPS game. Low TTK requires strategy and tactics with very little forgiveness. It's HARDCORE mode guys, I really enjoy having a 3/1 KD ratio, Never can have that when playing games that infantry soldiers can take stupid amounts of damage. The one thing I really hated in PS1 was its stupid high TTK. The new TTK in PS2 is the one thing I like most about it and in fact would be happy with it further reduced in some ways like a bleed to death feature introduced and make more weapons able to kill with head shots. I think sniper riffles should be able to kill on one shot torso shots as well sense they are like 50cals. I really love my scifi shooter having a sense of realism that adds intensity and stress to the combat situations not bunny hopping micro dancing solders taking 20+hits.

Oh no, not the TTK argument again; it's been done to death.

[psijaka]

It isn't the fact that they kill infantry. It's the fact of how well they kill infantry.

Vortex? Can't kill shit by looking at the stats
Raven? Not bad. Can do the job depending on the user
Fracture? No question, one of if not the best MAX AV weapon

Look at the average per hour page.
http://ps2-stats.com/weapon/infantrytype/av_max/all/per-hour

3 out of the 8 listings a Fracture is on top and by a rather large gap. Kills, headshots, and vehicle kills a Fracture has the top spot. Only fire count, hit count, headshot rate, and accuracy is the Fracture not top dog but has 2nd-3rd place is ALL of them but player count (not counting doubles of a weapon). If it wasn't for the Bursters (all 6 of them) then Fractures would have 5 out of 8 of the listings hands down with being in a close 2nd in fire count and accuracy. The only thing that the Fractures don't have a firm grip on is in player count.

Best killer
Best headshooter (not a word)
Best vehicles killer
2nd best headshot %
2nd most hitting
2nd most accurate
3rd most fired weapon
5th most played weapon (13th and 14th if counting doubles)

If that isn't OP then I don't want to see what is. Not even the hated ScatMAXes in AI stats come CLOSE to a WHISPER of a HINT of what Fractures are doing now and they have been bitched about being OP as fuck (they're not) for MONTHS. We've had Fractures for about 10 days and they damn near rule all AV MAX weapons hands down.

I'm fascinated by these stats, and using them to compare and come to conclusions about the new AV weapons is perfectly valid.

BUT - we do need to be careful about making comparisons to the default AV weapons; these are often used singly and when they are they are much less effective than when run dual.

[PredatorFour]

I got one shotted by a raven from medium range, it's ridiculous. NC seem to get the OP maxes.

[BlazingSun]

While SOE doesn't do a good job at introducing weapons in a balanced state, it's no wonder the balance doesn't get that much better after many months, when they listen to all the muppets on this forum and the official one. People who have only limited knowledge of the game and of weapons, don't know what's possible and what isn't, are in general incapable to see the forest for the trees and completely unwilling to even try to free themself from their subjective point of view. But that's life I guess.

[Dragonskin]

I got one shotted by a raven from medium range, it's ridiculous. NC seem to get the OP maxes.

Lies.... this can't happen. Oh wait. It's happened to me too. Don't worry though, someone will come in and tell you that you are wrong. Oh and they will say the VR training room is also wrong.

[Chewy]

Lies.... this can't happen. Oh wait. It's happened to me too. Don't worry though, someone will come in and tell you that you are wrong. Oh and they will say the VR training room is also wrong.

It is possible to dual hit kill someone at range with Ravens just like every other weapon that has the damage to kill. This is not a question of possible, but probable. How often are instant kills being done? That is the question.

Unless I see proof of someone cleaning house with Ravens NOT in a cut up montage or VR then the stats just don't show a damn bit of truth to the Raven OP claims. On the other hand, Fracture OP claims ARE being proven with stats.

Iv had this argument time and time again on these forums with NC MAXes and have yet to have someone show real poof against them that wasn't personal experience or a few cut up videos that could be edited to show anything. I have given what looks to me like real undeniable proof that the Fractures are OP as hell.

Disprove my findings or give your own that support your claims. Till then I'll be sitting back and wondering how the hell this is still a debate and not a bitch contest.

[Dragonskin]

Disprove my findings or give your own that support your claims. Till then I'll be sitting back and wondering how the hell this is still a debate and not a bitch contest.

Take a Raven in VR and shoot a enemy target directly in the head within 30m. Boom instant kill head shot.

Now, I've heard that the VR room isn't accurate. IF that is true then maybe the devs need to know about it, but I highly doubt that because there wouldn't be a point to the VR room at all if it was inaccurate. It's more likely that the enemies in VR don't have Nanoweave or flak armor. If that is the case then it is entirely likely that if you run a bandolier, utility pack, ammunition belt or any other non-flak/nanoweave that you could be killed by them just like in the VR room with 1 shot.

Ravens are insanely accurate due to being laser guided. Within 30-40m you can reliably hit a target in the head. Especially if they don't see the threat coming.

I've never mentioned the fracture in my arguments.. yet you seem to rely on that as part of your debate. IF the TR can do it then it's ok the NC can do it. I am simply saying it's not ok for either of you to be able to do it since the VS can not.

Your turn.

[almalino]

Disprove my findings or give your own that support your claims. Till then I'll be sitting back and wondering how the hell this is still a debate and not a bitch contest.

I agree, when people tells something is OP without any real data behind the claim except "I was killed with this thing. it is OP" they are either trolling or just do not understand basic math behind the statistics.

There is no reason to argue with them. First they need to go to school and learn math :)

[Chewy]

Take a Raven in VR and shoot a enemy target directly in the head within 30m. Boom instant kill head shot.

Now, I've heard that the VR room isn't accurate. IF that is true then maybe the devs need to know about it, but I highly doubt that because there wouldn't be a point to the VR room at all if it was inaccurate. It's more likely that the enemies in VR don't have Nanoweave or flak armor. If that is the case then it is entirely likely that if you run a bandolier, utility pack, ammunition belt or any other non-flak/nanoweave that you could be killed by them just like in the VR room with 1 shot.

Ravens are insanely accurate due to being laser guided. Within 30-40m you can reliably hit a target in the head. Especially if they don't see the threat coming.

I've never mentioned the fracture in my arguments.. yet you seem to rely on that as part of your debate. IF the TR can do it then it's ok the NC can do it. I am simply saying it's not ok for either of you to be able to do it since the VS can not.

Your turn.

"Unless I see proof of someone cleaning house with Ravens NOT in a cut up montage or VR then the stats just don't show a damn bit of truth to the Raven OP claims."

VR room is not a way to see if something is OP in a fight. The VR room can ONLY give you a very basic feel for the weapons, their attachments, vehicle handling, and how those vehicles attachments effect them. That's it, a BASE LINE. Outside of the VR there are things like movement that fuck with hitting a target, both your and your enemy. Im not going to get into how many things that happen in real gameplay that can either make or ruin a weapon, there are THOUSANDS thanks to HUNDREDS of players that can be around you at any given time.

You can land headshots on standing targets that never move no matter what they see, know, feel, hear, or think. Good for you. Try the same on a moving, jumping, and squirrely little fucks who's sole meaning in life is to live and kick your ass. If you can still do the same in those conditions on reliable terms then I'll give your claim merit.

Iv used the VR to try and disprove the myths of NC MAXes being OP. Not by giving just saying what I can do, but by removing every bit of player skill I could to get a BASE LINE for not only NC MAX AI weapons but ALL MAX AI weapons. A laser guided weapon CAN'T be tested the same thanks to it being a PURE player skill based weapon.

VR only gives a hint, field combat show the truth and stats are not recorded in VR.

I wait for more. But I fear that I may be overestimating my opponent, and that this storm may kill my net for the night.

[Chewy]

So after 3 days has anyone found evidence of their own yet? It's kinda odd to have an OP debate fall to the 2 and 3rd pages in as many days.

[AThreatToYou]

My personal evaluation of the Raven is:

- Definitely not OP
- Potentially in need of projectile velocity (increase) and AOE (reduction) change to re-adjust weapon as more effective vs. vehicles (but still usable against infantry in a pinch)

that's after using it

[Chewy]

My personal evaluation of the Raven is:

- Definitely not OP
- Potentially in need of projectile velocity (increase) and AOE (reduction) change to re-adjust weapon as more effective vs. vehicles (but still usable against infantry in a pinch)

that's after using it

I agree. I can live with a 350m max range but that travel speed and AOE could use a tune. The rockets feel far to slow to be a long range weapon. And the AOE is a bit to big for its own good. I like being able to pepper infantry behind cover and keep them from getting shields back but that shouldn't be with a ranged laser aim based weapon.

I think all of the new AV weapons shouldn't have splash damage anyway. You're going for targets that have a limited chance to return fire and might not even render you. Why make it easy to land hits on infantry?